UN likely to refer Goldstone findings to The Hague

Prosecute the corrupt UN and the par for the the Arabs that Ban-ki-Moon bends to their wishes. The best thing would be to abolish that ancient and anti-Israel establishment once and for all. Since whoever takes charge as the chief of it, never abides their rulling in a positive way toward Israel. And Israel is a member of that so-called august NOT!establishment I think time has come for Israel to abandon and leave the scandalous place.Fot it does no good bar getting hammered by the members who are in the main:Dictators,oil rich Arabs who rule the stinking place. A pity because the other decent members are in the minority.However,they too are too timid to voice the obstructive way they deal toward Israel. Cowardly shame

Israel to international court. Will someone please bring the arab dictators to court. All the states prosecuting Israel and hamas need to go to international court. Everyone can see israel is being railroaded but I know in the end Israel, a democracy will come out on top. Get rid of the court. Get rid of the UN

Who hides in his mother's basement,scratches his scrotch,shakes his head in an approval of the achivements...after beating Joe V.Moer, Cipora Julianna Kohn,and the others. Returns satisfied and goes upstairs to his little bunk bed,streches a bit more and sigh,oh very good of me:I beat the all woweeee he shouts to the very low ceiling,bumps his head hard and oops he realizes what a tiny body he seems to have. poor,poor fellow.Suddenly mother shouts! hey where are ya you lazy bum,there's work to be done.Here I am slaving in the kitchen getting your wittles ready.What are you be doing in the basement all the time boy?!? Come upstairs you lazy good for nothing.I'll tell your pa,to give you a good hiding,careful now,or your crotch will be aburning...

"never in the field of human conflict has so many fights so few" Winston Churchill (modified). regards

JS: "The UN General Assembly does not have the power to refer any matter to the ICC Prosecutor." And this article says that they AREN'T attempting to refer that matter to the ICC i.e. they are attempting to refer this matter to the ICJ. Hold that thought.... JS: "The Prosecutor can if he has initiated an investigation".... Hold that thought..... JS: "However, the Prosecutor would have to have begun the investigation." Hold that thought..... JS: "As the Prosecutor has yet to decide on whether the Court has jurisdiction over the Gaza war," Bingo! So, John, what if the UNGA asks the ICJ for an Advisory Opinion on *this* legal question: Q: Does the ICC Prosecutor have jurisdiction over war crimes committed during Operation Cast Lead? Now, juuuuuust suppose the opinion of the ICJ is: "Why, yes, he certainly does". Understand now?

...the State Department!!! We, American Jews, have known who the State Dept is for many, many tens of years!

CJK: "the icc prosecutor cannot initiate a case against israel proprio motu if the court has no jurisdiction." And what, exactly, does "initiate a case" actually mean, Cipora? The Prosecutor's "proprio motu" powers relate to his ability to INVESTIGATE, not to his ability to lay criminal charges. That prosecutor can INVESTIGATE any crime that is defined in Articles 5 to 8, and his only constraint is the need for the approval of a "pre-trial chamber". CJK: "since israel is not a state party, and since gaza is not a state, the icc has no jurisdiction." A point of order... the Rome Statute makes a clear distinction between "jurisdiction" and the "exercise of jurisdiction". Art 5 says that any genocide, crime against humanity, war crime, or crime of aggression falls within the court's jurisdiction.

we BOTH know that israel has made NO such request...and has conducted NO credible inquiries itself.

warfare, justice, human rights, you name it! got that! maybe you would if you opened BOTH eyes.

try reading into it sometime. you'll find it most clearly reflected in the state department. explore their website sometime. and as a direct extension of the executive branch, it's also a more direct view into the those of the presidential policy it represents. read its reports, and its stance regarding israel's activities. you confuse the actions of congress and presidential hesitation to buck aipac's political leverage, with american policy and values. the state department is a much more realistic reflection of american values and conscience than any body made up of politicians with various motives, both personal and political, and whose primary interest above all else, is insuring their own re-election. bottom line S, it's those americans who support israeli policy, its occupations, its settlements, et al...both morally and financially, who are against american values. and the u.s. vetoes in favor of israel are a reflection of u.s. politics; NOT u.s. policy.

JV.M: "Johnboy instead of bandying legal mumbojumbo about as though you know what you are talking about, howzabout commenting on #38 John Strawson, " Joe, I think I'll let Assoc Prof Marjorie Cohn of the Thomas Jefferson School of Law answer for me: http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forum/forumnew18.htm I was unaware of that article until today, but in 2001 she did indeed identify a mechanism for bypassing a UNSC veto in order to allow the ICC prosecutor to gain jurisdiction (in her case, over USA officials), and it *does* involve going to the ICJ first. If the UNGA takes Cohn's argument to the ICJ and gets the advisory opinion that it wants then John Strawson's comments become moot. Now, I don't know if the UNGA will win such an argument at the ICJ, but it *is* an arguable case. And if it is an arguable case then it *isn't* legal mumbojumbo.

... Let me repeat what you're saying: " MY country ...(providing) protection of one whose COMPLETE disregard of international conventions for justice and human rights have been allowed to continue without consequence for over 40 years!..." and "...it`s those in MY country who use their political influence to provide this undue protection who are in FACT working against the values that MY country strives to uphold." So, you just fight against US's protection of Israel, FOR 4O YEARS, which protection worked against values that US strives to uphold. Right? In other words the US, under 9 Presidents, in 40 years, did not uphold those values????????? Poor eric! You use so many words, that you lose the thread of what you're saying...

Goldstone's Henchman, Colonel Travers, Is another Piece of Work. The moral flimsiness of the Goldstone Commission, also called the UNHRC Fact Finding [fact-finding, no less] Mission on the Gaza Conflict, shows up not only in the matrix from which it emerged, the UN human rights council, a corrupt body with an Orwellian name. It also shows up in its personnel, Richard Goldstone himself, Hina Jilani, Christine Chinkin, and Desmond Travers. Then there is Ms Professor Christine Chinkin who had notoriously made up her mind as to the identity of the guilty party before being appointed to the "fact-finding commission." I was present at that ?fact finding commission? And shamed at Goldstones arrogance toward Noam Shalit presenting his views in so gentle manner,even showing earl book written by Gilad oh how he thought of people and animals.And Goldsones reaction?he picke the book,flicked the pages as ?some trashy? work and discarded it. However,the only one who showed sympathy toward N.Shalit was the Pakistani lady on the panel. I could have hugged her if I could.I was not aware she was the one called Ms Hina Jilani.(if it was her who had shown that sympathy) As for the rest I will stop here before I am accused of partiality to some of my own.

You have never said a truer word. Judging by the attention they get from the WHOLE world it is not surprising Akram. And yet,and yet,at the end of the day it gets them nowhere. What a waste of monies,efforts by many without no respite we Jews/Israelis have to endure the vicissitudes that encompases it all. Another thing. Never in the REALM of world politics have so MANY come from AFAR to visit so few ---ISRAEL. We must indeed be terribly powerful/important.

We all know what will emanate from the Irish (if you are one that is). If you belong to the Irish tribe,then it is not surprising. We never receive positive posts toward Israel from any Irish respondents.I'll add you to that list PRONTO.

"Thirdly, the mandate that this ?Human Rights Council? gave to Goldstone refers only to crimes supposedly committed by Israel, not to crimes committed by Hamas Thirdly, the mandate that this ?Human Rights Council? gave to Goldstone refers only to crimes supposedly committed by Israel, not to crimes committed by Hamas" Codswallop. Goldstone insisted upon a mandate to investigate BOTH sides for possible war crimes. He was granted license to name his own terms and he did so. You are not only a bit dim(for suggesting the allies of WWII be pursued for war crimes that were not yet deemed war crimes) but plain ignorant. You should know that goldstone obtained his desired mandate and not the one you describe.

Then I presume the US,and Arab countries,the many dictatorships,Islamisists sure have surpassed the criteria of answering to do. But of course you only pick on Israel. Well,I guess it goes with the territory of being blamed for all the ills of the world eh Mikey? BS to you.

And on the buton.As you wrote:Israel has been isolated in the GA since the `50s and no resolution condemning Israel will ever fail there. The consistent and virulent hatred of Israel makes the GA irrelevant. Absolutely,and no amount of distraction from it should be forgotten.Some have to read and think twice before making wrong assumptions. Thank you for putting the truth out.

And on the buton.As you wrote:Israel has been isolated in the GA since the `50s and no resolution condemning Israel will ever fail there. The consistent and virulent hatred of Israel makes the GA irrelevant. Absolutely,and no amount of distraction from it should be forgotten.Some have to read and think twice before making wrong assumptions. Thank you for putting the truth out.

. Can the world expect a reasonable, factual judgment about human rights violations during January?s Gaza War, ?Cast Lead,? to emerge from the upcoming report of the Goldstone Commission? Indeed, we can expect the opposite. First of all, we may say in general that the UN is a body made up of states, each of which has its own interests ?which may in themselves be right or wrong, just or unjust. Yet, secondly, the Goldstone Commission was appointed by the UN?s Human Rights Council, one of the more disreputable, more Orwellian, of UN bodies. Thirdly, the mandate that this ?Human Rights Council? gave to Goldstone refers only to crimes supposedly committed by Israel, not to crimes committed by Hamas against Israeli civilians and its own people through the use of ?human shields? explicitly forbidden by the international laws of war. This makes the Goldstone Commission rather obviously one-sided. And he still maintains in his righteousness?Bull

Can the world expect a reasonable, factual judgment about human rights violations during January?s Gaza War, ?Cast Lead,? to emerge from the upcoming report of the Goldstone Commission? Indeed, we can expect the opposite. First of all, we may say in general that the UN is a body made up of states, each of which has its own interests ?which may in themselves be right or wrong, just or unjust. Yet, secondly, the Goldstone Commission was appointed by the UN?s Human Rights Council, one of the more disreputable, more Orwellian, of UN bodies. Thirdly, the mandate that this ?Human Rights Council? gave to Goldstone refers only to crimes supposedly committed by Israel, not to crimes committed by Hamas against Israeli civilians and its own people through the use of ?human shields? explicitly forbidden by the international laws of war. This makes the Goldstone Commission rather obviously one-sided. And he still maintains in his righteousness

Joe The first is full of his mumbo jambothinks he is the greatest writer..oohh with such little knowledge bar stylish composing his responses to look grand..NOT! The latter CJ is here,never stops spewing his righteous clap trap accusing Israel in his:As you put it jealousy AND HATERED OF us Israeli Jews. Yes let him EAT HIS HEART OUT.As if we give a hoot what he says in all his posts. Am not visiting as often as before.Too much hate going around freeloaders BS *ING*

And the dim one is yourself. Okay forget the allies and world war two What about Vietnam,Cambodia,N.Korea. Not to mention Iraq and Afghanistan. Cannot be bother with your selective mumbo jambo. The above atrocities were comitted after the establlishment of the Genava convention anyway. So,what's your point?

"War crimes should be applied to the allies who devasted Germany and in association the rest of Europe" jasmine Even though the Geneva conventions were reformulated AFTER WWII to take account of the atrocities in that war? dim doesn't do you justice!

By the same token Michael: War crimes should be applied to the allies who devasted Germany and in association the rest of Europe. It seems that according to the latest Israel is in breach of the Geneva Convention? What of the rest? i.e the US in Iraq,Afghanistanetc and many other countries? Not forgetting Sudan's butcher Bashir,the IRA, UK's in The Malvinas,and so many more it would take reams to put out. You are nit picking. So,let Israel put up its arms and surrender to the Islamist who are trying to annihilate them. One law for Israel(agaist of course)another for a TERROR ENTITY HAMAS. Give me a break ..

Through out their history the leftists did nothing than pride themselves about the books they write & the articles they publish; none of them related to the living realities. The palestinians are the strongest power on earth to day, yet the leftists feel sorry for them & stands for their support in every occasion & out side any occasion. The palestinians recruited to their side all kind of people from all kind of religions & the ideological spectrum; from the far left & the far right. The Nazi couldn't do that, yet the palestinians have succeeded to bring the sympathy of the international community to their side from the four corners of the globe. Now we have an atom bomb in the way of being made in the service of the palestinians ! And still they portrayed themselves as the victims and the weaker side in this conflict !!! In a blind world from where Mr Goldstone came from, everything is possible !!!

Is not AIPAC. It is a pernicious influence all the same. It does just reinforce, I don't believe it subverts. "The voters of Obama... now starting to wake up to another potential destroyer of America via the dollar." Cryptic: "Voters of Obama" ? Not such a small number after all. I get the impression you are getting impatient for the resumption of Americas long term decline in her $. Who shall the Hedge Funds and money markets turn to I wonder. Might it be the Japanese currency, except that nation has barely been able to crawl from recession in decades or the Euro, of whom bankers are now waging bets as to its life expectancy...first Greece then Spain to come under fire. Or the once mighty Sterling as Britannia once again rules the waves! Except its looking rather sick against the $ this last year or two. Of course when the $ downticks a few percentage points it will be due the policies of Obama...naturally not the decades long erosion of US economic dominance. Sigh...

about as though you know what you are talking about, howzabout commenting on #38 John Strawson, WHO DOES KNOW WHAT HE's TALKING ABOUT, of Londonistans comment?

too many people like yourself have a tendency to presume to speak in the name of your country. such pretention and presumption should really stop. as far as i know, foreign policy is set by the us president. as far as i know, they have had different approaches to foreign policy. furthermore, your claim that the us has higher values than israel, especially in warfare, is ludicrous.

what a quaint way you have of putting the order from goldstone. the so-called request comes from the so-called un. it does not come from israelis themselves. israel has already conducted a number of investigations. it is irrelevant that you are not satisfied.

of your being here tomorrow to spew more of your jealous hatred of us ISRAELI JEWS on this JEWISH ISRAELI site. Carry on CJ. EAT YOUR HEART OUT with jealousy poepol

my post was made after reading someone's comment about an american veto. personally i would rather that ISRAEL do what it should have been doing all along: abide by the request for an "israeli" investigation of its findings by an independent committee. no investigation by the icj, or any other outside source, is going solve the problems that are inherent within the IDF itself, which in MY mind led to the individual instances of any war crimes that might have taken place. to me it's NOT an question of israel's right to defend itself, but rather what excesses were exercised by individual units, officers, and soldiers based on considerations OTHER than legitimate military motives. only an independent israeli investigation can resolve those questions and, more importantly, eliminate the atmosphere of impunity that fosters them.

and a veto by MY country would only be for the protection of one whose COMPLETE disregard of international conventions for justice and human rights have been allowed to continue without consequence for over 40 years! the protection MY country affords to one with whose activities and policies it is vehemently opposed, is not only in direct contradiction to its OWN foreign policy, but is ALSO in direct contradiction to the very principles upon which IT was founded! you've got alot of gall suggesting that i've spoken against MY country by opposing its closed-eyed protection of a state whose oppressive and racist policies are in direct conflict with its own. think AGAIN, S; it's those in MY country who use their political influence to provide this undue protection who are in FACT working against the values that MY country strives to uphold. israel is NOT the united states. it's not even remotely similar.

By Hamas' choice. The rest follows from there and raising the issue of Irgun which the Hagganah,the official army of Jewish people in Palestine,was the first to condemn as terrorists makes one wonder who you are trying to protect as a "non friend" of course. Refusing to include Hamas actions in the equation amongst the intelligencia is also an unfriendly act?

Israel has been isolated in the GA since the '50s and no resolution condemning Israel will ever fail there. The consistent and virulent hatred of Israel makes the GA irrelevant.

There was no need for your long post of American history. The "American" wrote: "the question is how much support can Israel and the u.s. rely on regarding this issue?" Israel AND the US in the same cauldron? He hates the US as much as Israel? That's not a Daniel Ellsberg. Here we speak of countless posters, you included, with a specific anti-Israeli attitude. Without any proportion to the "crimes" of Israel compared to the crimes going on in the world on an incomparable scale, with millions of dead. Goldstone and the UN included in this injustice. But blaming America too? I know the answer: AIPAC. You know what? AIPAC is small, insignificant to the millions of American Jews, me included. And the haters of Israel are a small part of America too. The voters of Obama... now starting to wake up to another potential destroyer of America via the dollar.

ALOHA, EVERYTIME WE DO SOMETHING YOU TELL ME AMERICA WILL DO THIS AND WILL DO THAT . . . I WANT TO TELL YOU SOMETHING VERY CLEAR. DON'T WORRY ABOUT AMERICAN PRESSUE ON ISRAEL. WE, THE JEWISH PEOPLE, CONTROL AMERICA, AND THE AMERICANS KNOW IT. ISRAEL P.M. ARIEL SHARON OCT 3 2001 FILTHY SWINE NOW HAS TUBES GOING IN AND OUT OF EVERY ORIFICE. KEEP THE ZIONIST SWINE ALIVE FOREVER A NEW METHUSELAH. HAH HAH \ EDWIN DOHERTY

the icc prosecutor cannot initiate a case against israel proprio motu if the court has no jurisdiction. since israel is not a state party, and since gaza is not a state, the icc has no jurisdiction.

it is not possible to override a unsc veto.

Likud minister to Greater Israel: Give up your dream By Yossi Verter Tags: Greater Israel, Israel news Proponents of the Greater Land of Israel - including the recently established Land of Israel caucus in the Knesset, hawkish Likud members and other MKs - are deceiving the public because their dream cannot be fulfilled, Minister Michael Eitan (Likud) said over the weekend. "You can't deceive all the time and speak about Greater Israel," Eitan said at a Geneva Initiative conference in Dimona. "It's a dream that will not be able to be fulfilled. The vast majority is willing to make significant concessions for peace. Everyone wants an agreement."

B: "The ICJ is the successor to the PCIJ and only has the power to render advisory opinions." The UNGA asks the ICJ for an AO on a point of law. Any such AO is "authoritative". B: "It is unclear to me how you can be certain that the ICC will get jurisdiction over the leadership of the IDF." 1) IF the ICJ says that the UNGA has the authority to refer this directly to the ICC 2) THEN the UNGA will refer this matter directly to the ICC. Nobody will be able to stop them, and at that point the ICC will have jurisdiction. B: "If the United States vetoes a resolution in the UNSC it is not a deadlock"... The USA itself laid the groundwork for this with UNGA Res 377 "Uniting for Peace", which aimed to bypass soviet vetoes in the UNSC i.e. a veto in the UNSC (a "lack of unanimity") throws the responsibility for resolving a crisis back to the UNGA. The USA has only itself to blame if its Very Cunning Plan has now come back to bite it - and Israel - on the bum.

17: "Silly games by the UN lead nowhere" Read your UNGA Resolution 337 "Uniting for Peace", which says that when the UNSC can not act because of a lack of "unanimity" (i.e. a veto) then the "responsibility" for resolving the issue goes back to the UNGA. The UNGA looks like it will ask the ICJ for an Advisory Opinion on wether that includes referring war crimes to the ICC. That puts heat on the USA, because keeping such an advisory opinion out of the hands of the UNGA is *much* more important to Obama than pulling Ehud Barak's arse out of the fire, and especially so when Netanyahu is perfectly capable of pulling that flabby backside out of the flames all by himself. The USA might just tell Israel it's on its own on this one.

For all the experts who argue what constitutes a war crime I refer you to the 3rd edition of 'Documents on the Laws of War' edited by adam roberts and Richard Guelff, Oxford University Press reprint 2005, page 675- article 8 (War crimes) of the 1998 Rome Statue: a. Grave breeches of the 1949 Geneva Convention b. other serious vilations ofthe laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict The crimes according to the Geneva Convention include also extensive destruction and appropriation of property not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly. Other serious violations include employing aphyxiating poisonous or other gases, destroying enemy's property that is not demanded by the necessity of war, killing or wounding defenseless combatantsintentionally destroying buildings dedicated to religion,education art science or charitable purposes, committing outrages against personal dignity. Israel has a lot to answer for.

my post was made after reading someone's comment about an american veto. personally i would rather that ISRAEL do what it should have been doing all along: abide by the request for an "israeli" investigation of its findings by an independent committee. no investigation by the icj, or any other outside source, is going solve the problems that are inherent within the IDF itself, which in MY mind led to the individual instances of any war crimes that might have taken place. to me it's NOT an question of israel's right to defend itself, but rather what excesses were exercised by individual units, officers, and soldiers based on considerations OTHER than legitimate military motives. only an independent israeli investigation can resolve those questions and, more importantly, eliminate the atmosphere of impunity that fosters them.

and a veto by MY country would only be for the protection of one whose COMPLETE disregard of international conventions for justice and human rights have been allowed to continue without consequence for over 40 years! the protection MY country affords to one with whose activities and policies it is vehemently opposed, is not only in direct contradiction to its OWN foreign policy, but is ALSO in direct contradiction to the very principles upon which IT was founded! you've got alot of gall suggesting that i've spoken against MY country by opposing its closed-eyed protection of a state whose oppressive and racist policies are in direct conflict with its own. think AGAIN, S; it's those in MY country who use their political influence to provide this undue protection who are in FACT working against the values that MY country strives to uphold. israel is NOT the united states. it's not even remotely similar.

The reason this is being taken up by the General Assembly is that the Security Council most probably will not be willing to take it up. Assuming that is correct, the United States will not have to veto a resolution referring the Goldstone Report to the ICC. As to whether the General Assembly may refer the matter to the ICC, I don?t believe they have the authority to do so, although I suppose it is possible that they might try. However, the ICC is not a part of the UN and has its own rules. Under the Rome Treaty establishing the ICC, the UNSC may refer certain matters not ordinarily within the jurisdiction of the ICC. The Rome Treaty gives no such authority to the General Assembly, and it seems very unlikely that the ICC would accept a case so referred.

It took an inveterate liar, not much more to screw up the world. Israel will not throw in the towel.

I think the time has come and gone that the world needs the U.N. They were set up to do nothing but muddy the waters. Goldstone, I hope doesn't have a mother or father that is watching him try to belittle his own people and all the while use a group such as the U.N. to convey his distaste for the Jewish State of Israel. He is not interested in war crimes, he believes as many do, that Israel itself is a war crime. It's truly sad when people of his ilk vent their low esteem on the very brothers and sisters he should be celebrating today for their amazing accomplishments. In any war or reduction of violence, as this was, there are going to be innocent people that are held in front of thugs like Hamas to offer fodder and illicit sympathy from the world in general. But, Israel can't set back and let themselves be destroyed little by little. The people that were in the way were put there by unscrupulous soldiers of hate AKA Hamas. The United Nations knows this.

L: "According to Article 13 of the Rome Treaty governing the ICC, the Court exercises jurisdiction if the case is initiated by the Prosecutor, or a member state, or the UN Security Council. It follows that as far as the GA, they can only refer the case to the Security Council." According to UNGA Resolution 337 "Uniting for Peace" if the UNSC can not deal with an issue due to lack of "unanimity" (i.e. a veto) then "responsibility" for resolving that isssue returns to the UNGA. So the UNGA can argue that Res 337 means that if a permanent member (no names, of course) veto's referring the Goldstone report to the ICC then the UNGA is LEGALLY entitled to step up to the plate and do it in place of the UNSC. It all depends on what the ICJ says i.e. wether the ICJ gives an advisory opinion that, yeah, Res 337 gives the UNGA that right. The USA would be well advised to throw Israel under the bus i.e. to NOT veto, and therefore avoid having this put to the test.

my post was made after reading someone's comment about an american veto. personally i would rather that ISRAEL do what it should have been doing all along: abide by the request for an "israeli" investigation of its findings by an independent committee. no investigation by the icj, or any other outside source, is going solve the problems that are inherent within the IDF itself, which in MY mind led to the individual instances of any war crimes that moght have taken place. to me it's NOT an question of israel's right to defend itself, but rather what excesses were exercised by individual units, officers, and soldiers based on considerations OTHER than legitimate military motives. only and independent israeli investigation can resolve those questions.

I have often heard racists go on and on about the US veto at the UN...but rarely that of the former USSR or China. In this case it is just knee-jerkism: the US has no veto power in the General Assembly. Indeed, US support of racism-Palestinism has been one of the principal reasons it is still around: US largess and US political support.

and a veto by MY country would only be for the protection of one whose COMPLETE disregard of international conventions for justice and human rights have been allowed to continue without consequence for over 40 years! the protection MY country affords to one with whose activities and policies it is vehemently opposed, is not only in direct contradiction to its OWN foreign policy, but is ALSO in direct contradiction to the very principles upon which IT was founded! you've got alot of gall suggesting that i've spoken against MY country by opposing its closed-eyed protection of a state whose oppressive and racist policies are in direct conflict with its own. think AGAIN, S; it's those in MY country who use their political influence to provide this undue protection who are in FACT working against the values that MY country strives to uphold. israel is NOT the united states. it's not even remotely similar.

SDHD: "It is not a war crime to fire into civilian areas if those civilian areas are being used for combat purposes. If used for such purposes, they are no longer civilian areas, are they?" But the CIVILIANS are still CIVILIANS, and that means that they are still "protected persons" under international humanitarian laws. They are therefore still protected by the principles of Distinction and Proportionality, and any violation of those principles by the attacker (i.e. by the IDF) is still a war crime. Your argument falls down i.e. that rockets are coming FROM a civilian area does not mean the IDF is free to blaze back with everything that it has. If it does that then it is shooting (civilian) fish in a barrel, and that is STILL a war crime.

Here is what I think about Goldstone: He is a vindictive,arrogant,and bitter man who has been proven wrong,but persists in regurgitating by demands which is now supposed to be given over to the Hague? Well we'll see where this will get him. He will go down in history as one the worse men who has done nothing good but just wrong. Golgstone Played Fast & Loose with Evidence and Due Process of Law in His Yugoslav Adventure. Not satisfied with that he delved into Israel's important defence against the terror entity,during Cast Lead,lost the plot as is his wont,never satisfied pursues it still relentlessly.

Who are you kidding? Hamas is being launching rockets for 9 years in South of Israel and they did not have the time to wear their uniform??? Are you nuts? ? 9 years!!!! Hamas are the worst war crime ever, they used homes, hospitals, schools and even mosques to launch attacks into civilians in Israel. Yes, Michael, they just had the time to dig tunnels and launch rockets from their mosques but did not have the time to wear their uniform Hah! ? Hamas is simply small groups of terrorists that will disappear real soon before you have the chance to admit that Hamass are war criminals because they killed your sisters, mothers and your babies. Israel defended its citizens, whenever Hamas asks for it ? no questions asks, they will get it. Goldstone report is full of lies and you know it. Look what Israel did in Haiti savings so many lives? I truly see the humanitarian side of Israel and for this I salute them. What did the 52 muslim arab countries do? nothing! Shame on you!

17: "Silly games by the UN lead nowhere" Read your UNGA Resolution 337 "Uniting for Peace". It says that when the UNSC can not act because of a lack of "unanimity" (i.e. a veto) then the RESPONSIBILITY for this issue goes back to the UNGA. The UNGA is going to ask the ICJ for an Advisory Opinion wether that RESPONSIBILITY includes referring war crimes and crimes against humanity to the ICC. It is a good maneouvre, because it puts heat on the USA to fold rather than to allow the UNGA from being armed with such a dangerous (for the USA) advisory opinion. And the easiest way to fold is to **NOT** veto the Goldstone report in the UNSC.

Israel says, "Hamas is a terrorist organization whose main purporse is to attack civillians..." Does anyone really pay attention Israeli declarations anymore? It is clear to most nations that Israel is not interested in peace. The sad part is these same nations are still unwilling to ostracize and isolate Israel. Israel historically has not responded to anything but PRESSURE....

but refused to act on it. ?While reports reviewed by the Mission credibly indicate that members of the Palestinian armed groups were not always dressed in a way that distinguished them from the civilians, the Mission found no evidence that Palestinian combatants mingled with the civilian population with the intention of shielding themselves from the attack.? WHY ELSE?? 2.Livni etc were talking about ONE incident. 3. Not rerquired to wear uniforms in a war they knew was coming.PURE GARBAGE.

S: "You hit the nail on the head, sadly, embarrassingly and disgustingly, that`s exactly what will probably happen." No, the UNGA is referring this issue to the ICJ first, and you can bet that they are doing that to get an advisory opinion from the ICJ on wether UNGA Res 377 - the "Uniting for Peace" resolution - allows it to refer this matter *directly* to the ICC in the event of a veto in the UNSC. If the ICJ says "yeah" then the USA veto becomes moot, because all a veto will do is throw the responsibility back down to the UNGA i.e. a US veto sends the Goldstone Report back to the UNGA, who will then say "thanks for that" and send it directly to The Hague. The UNGA **is** united on this, Stanley, and all that is holding it back is that ICJ advisory opinion.

issued to try to minimize casualties. Did Hamas try to minimise casualties at any stage? Have their "non friends" made an issue of it.?

B: "The ICJ is the successor to the PCIJ and only has the power to render advisory opinions." The UNGA asks the ICJ for its advice on a point of law. Any such AO is "authoritative" i.e. if it advises that Int'l Law says *this* or *that* then the UNGA can, indeed, act on that basis. B: "It is unclear to me how you can be certain that the ICC will get jurisdiction over the leadership of the IDF." IF the ICJ says that the UNGA can refer this matter directly to the ICC then the UNGA can - and will - refer this matter directly to the ICC; nobody will be able to stop them, and at that point the ICC will have jurisdiction. B: "If the United States vetoes a resolution in the UNSC it is not a deadlock"... The USA itself laid the groundwork for this with UNGA Res 377 "Uniting for Peace". That was the USA's Very Cunning Plan to bypass soviet vetoes in the UNSC i.e. a veto in the UNSC throws the issue - and, importantly, the RESPONSIBILITY - back to the UNGA.

countries under their influence,oil,money,bribes to rulers gives them an invariable majority when they need it. The GA president was just by the way not the main thrust.

have been over in about 30 mins without one Israeli soldier putting his foot on the ground in Gaza. Instead they moved from house to house past tunnels and booby traps not knowing whether they were facing civillians or not especially when fire was directed at them from houses.

Hamas knew war was coming they prepared for it,digging tunnels booby trapping etc etc BUT they did not have time to put on uniforms? Come sir. Not a friend of Hamas OK but why avoid their ongoing contribution to this mess ? Because you do not like them?

Quote: "Goldstone Report is a refection of how lies can munipulate justice & brings it to its own side; an affirmation that there is nothing new as far as the jews are concerned ! And a jew is guilty before he is born" Akram, it is clearly ridiculous to accuse Goldstone of "lies", to dramatize unnecessarily because you find his judgement too difficult to accept. Please remember that Israel flatly refused to cooperate with him, even BEFORE he had written a single word. This was a grave mistake.

vh: "has it struck jb and other addicts to hate that the icc would find out that the goldstone report is not wwworth the appppaper its printed on??" No, it has not. And Israel appears to agree with me, victorpaul, because it is acting very much as if it the sky will fall in should the ICC ever get that brief. Or, in short: it is acting like it is guilty. vh: "that you have to strictly prove before aresponsible court !" !!!!!!! Victorpaul, the ICC *is* that "responsible court". The Goldstone Report is merely the "police brief" And that "police brief" is saying that the case should be brought before that "responsible court" because (a) a crime was committed and (b) the prime suspect is, indeed, As Guilty As Hell.

Believe nothing you see or hear. From Mark Aarons` and John Loftus` book, "The Secret War Against The Jews:" `The authors demonstrate that numerous Western countries, especially the United States and Great Britain, have conducted repeated and willful spying missions on Palestine and later Israel over many decades. While on the surface these two countries and others profess to be ardent allies of Israel, they work in fact, through their intelligence services to betray Israel`s secrets to the Arabs. Their motive: oil and multinational profits, which must be attained at any price through international covert policies.` The global "war on terror(ism)" being one such Illuminati sponsored New World Order covert policy. Shalom to all.

Unless of course the rockets were not been fired from civilian areas subsequently attacked when Israel continued Operation elect Barak and Livni beyond the initial estimate of the IDF of two days. To three weeks as Barak and Livni's standng rose in the opinion polls. But you won't want us pointing out that major flaw in your argument will you?

Also,your posts are brief and to the point without any imbelishment whatever. OOHH jolly dee,to visit Haaretz and who do I see?the usual furiously prepared responses by the many who are READY TO PUSH ISRAEL UNDER A BUS. Incidently,weren't we all so pleased when Kofi(cup) Retired and we received the good news? To see a S.Korean chief to begin his career at THE CORRUPT UN. Poor poor Ban-ki-Moon having to bow down to the dictums of the majority of the members who occupy that corrupt establishment. Alas no change for he has to toe the line. As bad as his predecessors adhering to their wishes. As for Goldstone: A very bitter,and disgusting man.I saw him during the "fact finding" program while the mild and suffering Noam Shalit gave his speech on behalf of his son.Gave Goldie Gilad's early book on his love for life of creatures etc.He flicked the pages,as some trashy piece.The only member who was decent, believe it(TRUE)Pakistani lady member of the panel.

I will tell you something for nothing. Israel is quite inured to be bashed by the world who ever it may be. No credence will be forthcoming,for we care NOT. Israel will survive all the stones its thrown against it. Conversely,sticks and stone will break our bones,BUT WORDS WILL NEVER HURT US? Ooops,I mean it not--no bones of ours wil be broken...We are robust and strong. No one would dare breaking our bones. Fool us once shame on us,fools twice shame on YOU whoever..

As good an idea as any. The problem is that Iran has already double crossed the Russian. If China can control them, good for them.

IRan threatened to wipe Israel off the map. That is against the UN and Iran should have been thrown out of the UN. Its obvious Arab Muslims are committing genocide against Blacks in Darfur and the governemnt should be before the ICJ. Neither thing has happened. UN is a joke. IT wont apply its own laws against Arabs and Muslims. Any ruling against Israel is obviously not about the law, but about racism. UN out of US. US out of UN. It is a racist entity with states applying pressure for political reasons, not for world reasons. Its a great idea that is diseased with politics and needs to be removed from the world. Cancel Palestine. Create Peace.

a veto in the unsc cannot be overriden. (ps can members of the military post)

". The Palestinians have a right to any territory of the Mandate in 1948 NOT declared by Israel 14th May 1948" Jews were ALSO Palestinians prior to 1948. Don't they also have a right to any territory of the Mandate not declared by Israel? Or must they give up their properties because a loon refuses to recognize their rights too?

is very favorable to Israel - Israel did not commit errors as accused by anti-semitics in Gaza. Arab should grow up and look at Hamas who undiscriminatory killed so many of their own by using them as human shield. This is just a stupid game on the arabs' part to deviate the world attention. But it does not work because the world know the truth.

...and goldston's report talks about the crimes that Hama committed using their family as human shield!! What about what's going on in iran the killing of their demonstrators? where is the UN??? Israel demonstrated over and over its humanitarian side - see how many lives they saved in Haiti, Turkey, India and other places - non of arab country did not even the 1% of what the noble Israeli did. I salute Israel for its humanitarian and integrity. VIVA ISRAEL

"You should get your facts straight. It is not a war crime to fire into civilian areas if those civilian areas are being used for combat purposes. If used for such purposes, they are no longer civilian areas, are they?" You see that's where you're wrong SDHD. Attacks on civlian areas have to be proportionate to the miltary advantage. Basically the whole world except Zionists thinks the atatcks were disproportionate.

As good an idea as any. The problem is that Iran has already double crossed the Russian. If China can control them, good for them.

I don't understand because western countries support again this organization . It's not only useless but even dangerous for the west.For me the control of that system is in the hands of rabbles states.

"Do not like Israel, as talkbacks here..." Politics is for you as complicated as football fanaticism.

Ha,they are the judges of whom?Themselves.Its a vector used against Israel illegally through Gaza's assaults on Israel.

"Second, in my opinion the Hamas rockets are war crimes and would remain war crimes whatever warnings Hamas issued. Firing into a civilian area with a high likelihood of hitting civilians is a war crime, with or witout a warning." Except, according to the Geneva Conventions, those who use civilian areas from which to conduct armed conflict are the ones perpetrating the war crime. Israel had a military objective, to stop the rockets being fired into her territory. The rockets never stopped falling during the entire conflict. You should get your facts straight. It is not a war crime to fire into civilian areas if those civilian areas are being used for combat purposes. If used for such purposes, they are no longer civilian areas, are they?

CJ - Hamas is respectable freedom fighter organisation" If you say so. I could care about Hamas? "They want territory they`ve never had in the first place." Hamas are Palestinians, from the populus for the populus. The Palestinians have a right to any territory of the Mandate in 1948 NOT declared by Israel 14th May 1948. Israel has never legally annexed any territory. http://tinyurl.com/yjgh5lj

China doesnt veto sanctions against Irans attempts to achieve parity with Israel. And the United states not using their veto on the Goldstone Report so that China can have a face saving way of explaining to Iran why it didn't use it's veto. Israelis at The Hague would be a low impact way of stopping Iran going nuclear in the eyes of the West Israelis will be seen as expendable. Particularly in Europe who don't like Israel according to many talkbackers on this newspaper.

Now the jews must be judged on the highest possible moral grounds ! And by the highest international organization possible, the u.n ! And the claimants are none other than an organization of terror ! There hands are dripping with blood of both; their own people and the people of most other nations of the globe ! Supporting the claims of israel guilt, are the left whose principles of justice are drawn from the ideologies of all humans are equal including self confess murderers. Goldstone Report is a refection of how lies can munipulate justice & brings it to its own side; an affirmation that there is nothing new as far as the jews are concerned ! And a jew is guilty before he is born. Who said that ? Read the Koran & ask those who blame the jews for the killing of jesus !

Mark of Lewiston, You hit the nail on the head, sadly, embarrassingly and disgustingly, that's exactly what will probably happen. Stanley

'The last refuge of a scoundrel'. "An American against Israel is no big deal. They are in the minority. But against his own America too?" Think of John Brown,Eugene Debs, Rosa Parks, Smedley Butler, MLK, Daniel Ellsberg and their ilk, all modern day heroes to all those left of Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh. Then think of the Committee on Un-American Activities, McCarthy, Cheney, Rove, Scooter Libby et al AND Palin and Limbaugh. Each one professing to represent the ideals of patriotism and loyalty to the flag above all else. The true heroes of American history from the former group, all spoke out against their nation, its values and its crimes at one time or another. All were considered traitors or deviants by those who in the second group. Speaking out against your own country when you think it performs immoral, unjust or criminal acts, is not a blot on character but an mark of courage. Roundly criticising it on here is hardly courageous but then neither is finger wagging at those who dare to speak out against their nation's 'official' policy a particularly endearing or mature trait, is it really?

and bring the Irgun into your rather simple-minded arguments, then let me remind you that your country, the UK, along with the US, had no compunctions about carpet-bombing German cities, fire-bombimg Dresden and a-bombing Hiroshima, having given no warning to civilians. Do you want to counter that the rules and conventions of war have changed since then? True. Because 65 years ago wars were generally fought between the regular armies of sovereign countries (the Irgun and the WWII partisans being an exception). Whereas today, wars are often fought between the regular army of one or more states, on the one hand, and guerilla or terrorist organizations, on the other, these latter having no compunctions about wearing civilian dress, hiding out among the civilian populations, and using civilian imstallations such as schools, mosques and hospitals as firing positions and places of refuge. There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Michael, than are dreamt of in your philosophy

discussion and critisism... subsequently he modified his stance a bit, in a response that appeared in the 'N.Y. Review of books 2009.

"Before you ask someone to "read it sometime," (read what?)" It's in the post. "No one said anything about the president of the UNGA." How odd: PETER SM : "Assembly president Ali Abdussalam Treki",do you need any more information???? " "The Arabs can count on an automatic majority vote of at least 2/3 on any given issue" Using your brand of dodgy maths naturally... It's a pity the UNGA record DOESN't show any such 'automatic majority vote' though. UNGA 181 is a fine example. Acceptance of Israel into the UN as another. East Timor. Shall I go on?

The UN General Assembly can vote to refer the matter to Security council to have issues decided by ICJ. I doubt China,Russia, US France will approve sending to ICJ. Thus no deadlock. Besides ICJ requires consent of the nation to subject itself to ICJ jurisdiction. Israel nor USA have don so. Thus any opinion is not decision in a court of law and has no legal effect. Also there is no state of palestine which has subjected itself to ICJ jurisdiction.

No need to accuse me for "wishing to see the Jews persecuted on the world front". Nowhere in my response did I mention 'Jews' nor 'persecution'. Let me repeat what I said and that goes also for those who argue about the power of the ICJ. If the ICJ issues a decision that is unfavorable to Israel, as they may, it is not binding and Israel will ignore it as it has done before with the 'wall'. The impact however will add to the growing negative image of Israel. The policies of the governments of Europe and the US do not always reflect the feelings of their citizens. On a day to day interactions , the ill will towards Israel will only grow. If there is any question about it just listen to Israel's officialdom express their feeling of isolation in the world. World opinion, unlike official plattitudes carry its own weight.

It is interesting that you would compare Israel's behavior to "Russians in Georgia or Chechyna or the Sudanese in Darfur" and try to justify that Israel should not have to be held to a higher standard than those individuals. Those people and governments do not claim to be a democracy like Israel does and, yes, Israel should be held to high ethical and moral standards. You can get upset all you want about people who criticize Israel, but what other "democracy" destroys homes, confiscates land, snubs its noses at international law, denies human rights, kills innocent children, empowers apartheid, etc., etc., etc. Did not the USA stand against apartheid in South Africa and ethnic cleansing in Bosnia? Yet, the USA feels this type of behavior is OK for Israel? Sorry, Louis, but I think you are the one who is delusional in your unqualified support of Israel and in your trying to justify its abusive and immoral policies, all in the name of security.

as some think. The others think they are bunch of criminals promoting genocide - just slight difference of opinions. The facts on the ground are of course in favor Hamas - they were victorious innumerable times. They want territory they've never had in the first place. Still they serve the purpose and as such will be tolerated - within the limits, of course.

I am not really worried that Obama wouldn't veto those shenanigans in the UN. What I have resented was when an American wrote: "...I do believe that a veto can be overridden with enough support. so the question is how much support can the Israel and the u.s. rely on regarding this issue?" An American against Israel is no big deal. They are in the minority. But against his own America too? By the way, can a veto be indeed overridden?

According to Article 13 of the Rome Treaty governing the ICC, the Court exercises jurisdiction if the case is initiated by the Prosecutor, or a member state, or the UN Security Council. A It follows that as far as the GA, they can only refer the case to the Security Council. Will the US exercise its veto power? Very unlikely. Obama the lawyer will not play with war crimes on a political level. What he may be willing to do is to pressure Israel into doing the "right thing" on Gaza and peace with the Arabs, in return for delaying the referral to the SC. The Goldstone Report recommends that the SC will get periodic reports on the internal investigation by Israel (and Hamas) and implementation of the results (such as punishment). Every such periodic report will be a point of maximum pressure on Israel. And the US Congress, long in the Israeli pocket, will have no say in this. Good things may happen, even very good, foremost for Israel itself.

Before you ask someone to "read it sometime," (read what?), you should inform yourself about the UNGA. No one said anything about the president of the UNGA. However, it's a fact that of the 192 countries that make up the UNGA, there are 57 Muslim and 22 Arab countries (overlapping, of course), along with their more than 130 third-world allies (also overlapping the Arab and Muslim countries). The Arabs can count on an automatic majority vote of at least 2/3 on any given issue. If that's not domination, please tell us what you would consider domination.

Maybe at times like this, it is important to remind Erdogan and Turkey that muslims do indeed commit genocide (Bashir charged); and that the Armenian genocide by the Turks is no lie. Gaza is no genocide. The worst crime against humanity is to wipe out entire populations. The muslim countries should look into their own closet first for skeletons. Libya is still one of the worst. Nazis also committed genocide.

and the OIC usually has third world country backing. Yes, they certainly do control the GA and the UNHRC. What they don't control is the UNSC, which is a very good thing.

Hurriyet:"His government expelled 13 of the most important international aid agencies working in Darfur in response to the charges, further compounding the humanitarian crisis in a region where 300,000 people have died since fighting broke out in 2003 between the government and rebels. The United Nations says 2.7 million people have been driven from their homes.Moreno Ocampo accuses al-Bashir of mobilizing the entire Sudanese state apparatus with the aim of destroying a substantial part of the Fur, Masalit and Zaghawa ethnic groups in Darfur over more than six years.Prosecutors accuse Sudanese troops and the janjaweed Arab militia they support of murdering civilians and preying on them in refugee camps. Moreno Ocampo said part of the alleged genocide was a campaign of rape to drive women into the desert, where they die of starvation.Analysts said March's decision was vital in laying the groundwork for potential indictments of other leaders who have been mentioned as possible targets."

Muslims and Christians have waged genocides throughout history. Turkey, is still denying it and says muslims don't commit genocide. From Hurriyet: "Al-Bashir, the first sitting head of state indicted by the world's first permanent war crimes tribunal, refuses to recognize the court's jurisdiction.The International Criminal Court was ordered on Wednesday to reconsider indicting Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir with waging genocide in Darfur.Appeals judges said the court was wrong to conclude in March that there was insufficient evidence to merit charging al-Bashir with three genocide counts. Instead, it had charged him with seven counts of war crimes and crimes against humanity for allegedly orchestrating a campaign of murder, torture, rape and forced expulsions in Darfur province.The standard of proof the court sought for genocide charges 'was higher and more demanding than what is required' in its statutes, appellate judge Erkki Kourula of Finland said Wednesday."

A) Uniforms are not a requirement... http://tinyurl.com/y8ewves/myths-mis-conceptions-propaganda/#Combatants-uniform B) The IDF and Tzipi Livni ()December 28, 2008 Israeli Knesset - claim Hamas wear uniforms. http://tinyurl.com/y8ewves/myths-mis-conceptions-propaganda/#Hamas-uniform

the right of referal is probably greater than you imply. Wether it will happen is another issue.

"Assembly president Ali Abdussalam Treki" The Assembly President has very clearly defined role. You should read it sometime. They're elected, a new one each session. They're elected by ALL UN Member States. The Arab States do not dominate or control UNGA.

What Israel is supposed to do when Hamas or Hezbollah fire rockets from residential areas? Any suggestion? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/09fighter.html?_r=1&partner=MYWAY&ei=5065

The goal is some type of peace agreement which enables a Palestinian State. Both sides have been threatened with "crimes againat humanity" to facilitate this end. It does not change what people did or did not do.

To John in Australia, as you know the ICJ and the ICC are completely different bodies. The ICJ is the successor to the PCIJ and only has the power to render advisory opinions. The ICC is in its infancy. It is unclear to me how you can be certain that the ICC will get jurisdiction over the leadership of the IDF. If the United States vetoes a resolution in the UNSC it is not a deadlock and there will not be a referral by the UNSC. It is not in the ICC's interest to try the Israeli leadership of the IDF because first it will be Israel, then the US (Iraq, et al.), then the UK (Iraq, Afghanistan). The only way that the ICC will get jurisdiction is if Moreno-Campo, launches a prosecution in propo mutu. I don't see that happening.

that the icc would find out that the goldstone report is not wwworth the appppaper its printed on?? that you have to strictly prove before aresponsible court !

THe GA assembly vote is non binding its merely a recommendation that the UN Chief if he decides can forward it to the Security Council and they will ultimately decided. THere is no evidence to suggest that it will pass. USA most probably reject this resolution and I have a feeling a few the Europeans nations will. I think this moral charade has gone long enough and many including Mr. Ban are realizing what a moral hypocrisy is to simply go after Israel and not addressing serious human rights abuses. Sorry Mike your dream of seeing the Jews persecuted on the world front will have to wait another day.

Getting Israeli war criminals picked up and despatched on a plane to the Hague for trial is proving even harder than getting Serb, Croat, Rwandan and Sudanese ones behind bars. Their governments refused to co-operate or did their best to obfuscate justice, protested their innocence, blamed the rest of the world and generally squealed self-righteously too. Just like the Israeli right. (Little good it did them, there are about 180 of their leaders, generals and assorted thugs now behind bars for life and Bashir's turn will come). Israel plays the 'moral state' card - not really credible with 280 UN resolutions and Cast Lead atrocities against it. And the 'UN is dominated by Muslims' card (no more credible, 55 out of 192 states is 28%, the other three-quarters are not Muslim). And the '8,000 (bottle) rockets' card, which doesn't really cut the mustard because the rockets had stopped until Israel broke the ceasefire. It's shrill defiance is based SOLELY on a US veto.

There was no war in Gaza. It was a massacre. The Gaza massacre will go to the history as the turning point in the struggle between Palestinian and Israelis. There are lots of these horrendous points in time. The killing of Martin Luther King was one that decided the civil right movement in US. The liberal Jews came to the conclusion that they cannot support Israel?s acts: And that is about 70 % of the Diaspora Jews.

Have you got a unform Pete? Me neither. If somebody sent tanks into you street and sent planes to bomb it, then somebody thrust a gun into your hand and said defend your family, what would you do? Would you stand there,while the street was being demolished and say 'no, I will not fight unless I have a uniform, go and get me a uniform' or would take a gun and have a crack at the invaders? The point I'm making is that some Hamas men may deliberately wear civilian clothes to hide, but there are other reasons too for doing so. Equally, hiding in civilian outfits, while not particularly noble and not in line with the laws of war is a traditional approach used by irregular forces and guerrillas across the world and down through history. An army doesn;t have the right to destroy a town just because fighters aren't wearung uniforms. The IRA only wore uniforms for photo-ops, for active service, something more civlian was used. Irgun the same I imagine.

The UN General Assembly does not have the power to refer any matter to the ICC Prosecutor. Under the ICC Statute article 13 (b) only the UN Security Council has that power - and in making the referral the Council has to act under the mandatory powers of Chapter VII of the Charter. The Prosecutor can if he has initiated an investigation refer to information provided by the UN General Assembly under article 15 of the Statute. However, the Prosecutor would have to have begun the investigation. As the Prosecutor has yet to decide on whether the Court has jurisdiction over the Gaza war, no investigation has commenced and therefore at this stage resolutions of the UN General Assembly are irrelevant.

"How many warnings did your friends issue before the Qassam barrages so Israelis could take cover?" Two points Pete. First, Hamas are not my friends. That's a bit of a low for you. You're better than that, or I thought you were. Second, in my opinion the Hamas rockets are war crimes and would remain war crimes whatever warnings Hamas issued. Firing into a civilian area with a high likelihood of hitting civilians is a war crime, with or witout a warning. The point is that Israel can't salve its consciencs by saying it issued warnings.

B: "My bet would be that the UN will request an advisory opinion on several issues, whether the investigation was independent, whether Israeli committed war crimes under IHL, etc." No, none of those are questions of *law*, and so they are not candidates for an Advisory Opinion from the ICJ. The UNGA will ask for an Advisory Opinion on some variation on this question: Can the UNGA refer a matter directly to the ICC if the UN Security Council is hopelessly deadlocked? B: "Advisory opinions are non-binding and usually ineffective" If the UNGA asks the question that I have suggested and the court replies with "legally, yeah, you can" then the General Assembly will have the Goldstone Report in the hot little hands of the ICC before you can shout "Not Fair! Not Fair!".

ML: "Any referral by the UNGA is for show. It has no consequences. Only a UNSC referral has muscle. And yes, Israel can count on a US veto in the UNSC." Read the article again: the UNGA plans to refer the Goldstone report to the **ICJ**, not to the **ICC**. There is only one reason for them to do that: to seek an advisory opinion on wether the UNGA itself can refer a matter to the ICC when the UNSC is hopelessly deadlocked. Because that's the problem for Israel: it must stop the matter being referred *to* the ICC, and it appears that the UNGA thinks it has found a way to bypass the USA veto in the Security Council. Good luck to 'em, I say....

MK: "The International Court of Justice has no enforcement authority." The UNGA can refer the Goldstone report to the ICJ by asking for an Advisory Opinion on wether it is legally entitled to bypass a divided UNSC and refer the matter directly to the ICC. MK: "Inherently biased against Israel it ruled against the fence to keep out suicide bombers. The fence is still there." And if the UNGA gets the Advisory Opinion that it wants (and you are implying that they will) then your point is moot i.e. the UNGA will have an authoritative legal opinion that it can take the matter directly to the ICC, at which point it will take the matter directly to the ICC. [Of course, if that *is* the scenario then the USA may decide it has a vital interest in preempting this, and the easiest way of doing that is by throwing Israel to the wolves i.e. by quietly telling anyone who will listen that it WON'T use its veto in the UNSC]

the Hamasa choice for the battleground. How many warnings did your friends issue before the Qassam barrages so Israelis could take cover?

Hamas fighting without uniforms amongst civillians & its forseeable consequences. The Goldstone Illusion What the U.N. report gets wrong about Gaza -- and war by Moshe HALBERTALMoshe Halbertal is a professor of philosophy at the Hebrew University and the Gruss Professor at New York University School of Law. Source: http://www.tnr.com/article/world/the-goldstone-illusion -"Since the early 1990s, the nature of the military conflict facing Israel has been dramatically shifting. What was mainly a clash between states and armies has turned into a clash between a state and paramilitary terror organizations, Hamas in the south and Hezbollah in the north. This new form of struggle is now called ?asymmetrical war.? It is defined by an attempt on the part of those groups to erase two basic features of war: the front and the uniform. Hamas militants fight without military uniforms, in ordinary and undistinguishing civilian garb, taking shelter among their own civilian population; and they attack Israeli civilians wherever they are, intentionally and indiscriminately. During the Gaza operation, for example, some Hamas militants embedded in the civilian population did not carry weapons while moving from one position to another. Arms and ammunition had been pre-positioned for them and stored in different houses. In addressing this vexing issue, the Goldstone Report uses a rather strange formulation: ?While reports reviewed by the Mission credibly indicate that members of the Palestinian armed groups were not always dressed in a way that distinguished them from the civilians, the Mission found no evidence that Palestinian combatants mingled with the civilian population with the intention of shielding themselves from the attack.? The reader of such a sentence might well wonder what its author means. Did Hamas militants not wear their uniforms because they were inconveniently at the laundry? What other reasons for wearing civilian clothes could they have had, if not for deliberately sheltering themselves among the civilians? As for the new ?front? in asymmetrical warfare, we read in another passage, which is typical of the report?s overall biased tone, that, ?On the basis of the information it gathered, the Mission finds that there are indications that Palestinian armed groups launched rockets from urban areas. The Mission has not been able to obtain any direct evidence that this was done with the specific intent of shielding the rocket launchers from counterstrikes by the Israeli armed forces.? What reason could there possibly be for launching rockets from urban centers, if not shielding those rockets from counterattack? And what is the moral distinction that is purportedly being established here? "-

Also in October 2009, Israel pressured the Palestinian president to postpone asking for a UN vote on the Goldstone report. Yuval Diskin, head of the Israeli Shin Bet security service, met in Ramallah with President Mahmud Abbas and informed him that if Abbas refuses to ask to postpone the UN vote on the Goldstone report then Israel will turn the West Bank into a "second Gaza": the Shin Bet chief told Abbas that if he did not ask for a deferral of the vote, Israel would withdraw permission for mobile phone company Wataniya to operate in the Palestinian Authority and threatened to revoke the easing of restrictions on movement within the West Bank that had been implemented earlier in. Quite the law abiding light unto nations---huh psm.

need Mohammedan help on their fraudulent "science". Global lies need support of UN.

"Israel should favor the lives of its own soldiers over the lives of the lives of the well-warned neighbors of a terrorist when it is operating in a territory that it does not effectively control, because in such territories it does not bear moral responsibility for properly separating between dangerous individuals and harmless ones." So if Hamas broadcast to the civilians of Sderot and Ashkelon telling them to get out, and maybe Hamas phone a few of them as well, is it OK if Hamas then fires rockets into the towns, because the neighbours of military personnel and reservists in the town have been 'well-warned'? Would Hamas then, in Asa Kasher's terms not be committing a war crime? I'll bet they'll be happy to know that.

If I recal correctly, Israel turned down three offeres by Goldstone to participate. SO you think Israel should have special arrangements ---just for youse guys. Grow up fool---your rogue state refused to take part. No use whinging now or trying to blame someone else. By the way Goldstone did address the Hamas Issue. If you had read the report you would know that.

"Israel should favor the lives of its own soldiers over the lives of the lives of the well-warned neighbors of a terrorist when it is operating in a territory that it does not effectively control, because in such territories it does not bear moral responsibility for properly separating between dangerous individuals and harmless ones." You see there's your problem. Here's a philosopher of all people recommmending an attitude that almost guarantees war crimes. Showering a few warning leaflets does NOT then mean that you can turn an area into a free-fire zone, shooting anything that moves, with no 'moral responsibility for properly separating between dangerous individuals and harmless ones'. Scary that a philosopher should be saying such things. Really, really scary. When philosophers say such things, you know a society's got really serious problems.

meanwhile, the rockets are still being fired from Gaza.

A cow has more brains than you.

"Spilt milk... pity we did not cooperate with on time. and instead continued with heavy-hand tactics..." Pity you hold Israel to an unreasonable standard in light of it being subjected to rocket attacks for 7 years prior to Operation Cast Lead, instead, you continue with your light-brained posts.

The Moslem world will have their way. Thank you Mr Goldstone your refusal to seriously examine evidence presented to you about Hamas activities in Gaza will go down in the history of infamy.

In Israel a combatant is a citizen in uniform. His state ought to have a compelling reason for jeopardizing his life. There is no army in the world that will endanger its soldiers in order to avoid hitting the warned neighbors of an enemy or terrorist. Israel should favor the lives of its own soldiers over the lives of the lives of the well-warned neighbors of a terrorist when it is operating in a territory that it does not effectively control, because in such territories it does not bear moral responsibility for properly separating between dangerous individuals and harmless ones. For the entire article please see: http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=1&DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=378&PID=0&IID=3345&TTL=A_Moral_Evaluation_of_the_Gaza_War_%E2%80%93_Operation_Cast_Lead

"A decision to bring the report on last year's Gaza war before the court would follow a debate in the UN General Assembly over Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon's response to the document last week. " "Assembly president Ali Abdussalam Treki",do you need any more information????

... by any standards Israel excercised etraordinary calousness during and after Cast Lead... nor has its 'defense' stood up to accepted standards of scrutiny... moreover, the ICJ was not an obligatory outcome... this hardline government brought it upon us...

it is not obvious what the obama administration's policy is on this matter. i suspect that they will let the matter go to the icj which will than render an advisory opinion. that is all the icj can do. the icj cannot have jurisdiction over a state that does not accept its jurisdiction. such advisory opinon will be uncomfortable but not tragic. i doubt that obama will allow the matter to go to the security council-unless he is really foolish. israel is an ally. on the other hand, he has very left wing lawyers in his administration, including the state department. shavua tov, cipora

Any referral by the UNGA is for show. It has no consequences. Only a UNSC referral has muscle. And yes, Israel can count on a US veto in the UNSC. Obama thinks if he's nice enough to Israel, Netanyahu will forgive him for his middle name and for wanting peace between Palestine and Israel. Obama is still naive enough to believe in the tooth fairy and Netanyahu's statements and in Republican "country first" slogans and the idea of bipartisanship in current US politics. And of course, Israel's PMO has never openly criticized Obama, it's in the whispering-slur business. Everything is always perfectly peachy according to the PMO. They even openly love Rahm Emanuel. Just ask them.

leaders and other war criminals in the IDF/IAF etc. No one wil go to jail but these murdering scum will be in a "Gaza" of their own making. Remember the Argument to gain arrest warrants will be made far stronger as a result of a Guilty decision. It isn,t much but you take what you can get. Meantime the boycotts and sanctions will roll along at a quicker pace and the goal of a Bi National State will also be strengthened. Either way---cast lead will turn out to have been a very bad decision for Israel. It will see the end of the Zionist entity.

... here in Israel, against American policies (such as vetoing the sending of Goldstone's report to The Hague), or hoping that America will fail in its political endeavors... I know, I know, ... freedom of speech ... but still...

... and instead continued with heavy-hand tactics...

The ICJ is made up of consenting States. So in general you have to consent to have a dispute heard by the ICJ. This has nothing to do with the UN Security Council. So Israel will not consent, besides, "Palestine" whatever that means, is not a State. My bet would be that the UN will request an advisory opinion on several issues, whether the investigation was independent, whether Israeli committed war crimes under IHL, etc. The ICJ has never refused a request for an advisory opinion from the UNGA. Advisory opinions are non-binding and usually ineffective, but ultimately regardless of Israel's full response due at the end of March, the Goldstone report will get the imprimatur of the ICJ, several years from now.

In the "Wall case", the ICJ already ruled that the practice of the UN no longer precludes the General Assembly from considering a problem while the Security Council is seized of the matter. It is very unlikely that the Security Council can block a simple request that possible war crimes be investigated in light of the new Responsibility to Protect international law norm. The GA could simply ask for an advisory Opinion from the ICJ on the matter. In the "Certain Expenses" case, the US successfully argued that while the Charter gives the Security Council "primary responsibility" for the maintenance of international peace and security, that wording implies that the General Assembly has a secondary responsibility that can be exercised whenever the Security Council fails to act by "Uniting for Peace". The ICC already has a draft definition for the crime of aggression that would allow it to act unilaterally whenever the Security Council reaches a political impasse.

U.S could stop the morally bankrupt un human rights council which praises sri lanka and praises sudan's leader and holds no discussions about darfur. A future u.s president hopefully will stop this council. Every three years the council comes up for renewal and the council is now using this to bring israel to the hague. This council has no objectiviity it is majority arabs. This council wants to make it so that israel can't defend against rocket attacks and can't stop the tunnels at the border. This council is using the human rights council to bring israel to the hague. Ban and the official UN didn't order Goldstone investigation it was a political power play on part of the arab nations. That is why to give goldstone this legitimacy is a joke. The UN human rights council has some of the worst human rights abusers on it. So israel is supposed to be brought to the hague by the likes of saudi arabia and libya?

The International Court of Justice has no enforcement authority. Inherently biased against Israel it ruled against the fence to keep out suicide bombers. The fence is still there.

Ban didn't order goldstone it was the anti semite human rights council which praises sri lanka, praises sudan. This council has no discussions over darfur. This council is made up of majority arab members. This council is now being used as a weapon against israel defending itself. This council used to just bash israel now they are taking the offensive so if israel wants to stop weapons from iran into gaza they will use this council. Fire rockets at israel and iran bring in the rockets and do the training and the UN human rights council responds with now taking Israel to ICC. Well the ICC can only give an advisory opinion without the UN security council. Just like the advisory opinon with the wall. This advisory opinion won't prompt interpol and the few countries that have universal juristiction could maybe use this power play by the arabs to stop with the hamas lead lawsuits in the courts.

Since when is self defence a "vain justification"? I could see the matter going to the Hague if Israel had fired thousands of rockets into Gaza, indiscriminately. We know and you know who did that and we know and you know that this is what Israel was seeking to stop. We know and you know that Israel did a remarkable job in miniming damage to property and human harm, notwithstanding that there was lots of that.

Any nations of good will would try to counter this kind of initiative. The logic of it is to destroy international law. The equivalent would be criminals referring a complaint against police intervened to protect intended victims. Nothing less.

even if it DOES use its veto, i do believe that a veto can be overridden with enough support. so the question is how much support can the israel and the u.s. rely on regarding this issue?

If the GA votes to refer the Godstone report to the ICC , the decision will stand. The US cannot veto any GA resolution. Whatever the decision by the ICC, Israel will ignore as it did the decision regarding the separation wall. The result of an unfavorable ICC juducial decision against Israel will just add to the detrimental cummulative effect on world's opinion and attitude towards Israel. Israel already feels the pinch which causes it to squirm.

Both of you suffer from delusions. The Israeli government has never harshly criticized the Obama government though it has legitimate polciy differences over various Obama plans such as a freeze on construction in east Jerusalem. As for Israel "sweeping everything under the rug" that is a load of rubbish. I heven't seen the UK or US governments empower commissions to investigate purported premeditated attacks on innocent civilians. The critics of Israel always demand that Israel hold itself to the highest ethical standards that no other country is asked to observe.Funny how they never ask the Russians in Georgia or Chechyna or the Sudanese in Darfur to uphold these stringent ethical and moral standards.

Such words should be taboo

The International Court of Justice is exactly where the issue belongs! Israel cannot keep sweeping their actions and behavior under the rug. They must be held accountable by the international community for their violations of human rights, despite their vain justifications.

The US will veto any move through the Security Council. In appreciation, the Israeli PMO (leaks) and right wing will dump on Obama and help spread the story that he is a commie fascist Muslim for suggesting that he have any independent thinking, particularly about peace or avoiding war with Iran. We will all be reminded of his middle name. Then Obama will make excuses for Israel's treatment of Gaza and explain that Netanyahu really does want peace but is prevented by his unnamed coalition partners. Kabuki theatre at its best.