UN Gaza report / Will U.S. now let Goldstone into Afghanistan?

"Quite a difference to the Israeli tactics ..." Israel has both soldiers and civilians in prison not just for illegal acts, but just for planning them. Give us an example, pray tell, of an Arab tried and convicted by the PA or an Arab country of killing Jews in Israel. Sorry, you don't get to use Egypt trying people who attacked in the Sinai, that's them protecting their own tourist trade. We await...

In case of the tanker bombing of Kundus fact are that there have been two independent inquiries so far, one official inquiry of the Afghan government, rather favourable for the German Colonel, pointing out the fast differences to prior bombings, then secondly the official inquiry of the Nato, with severe charges of violations against the ROE against the German officer and then there will be be a trial before a criminal court, not a military court, in Germany upon his return. Quite a difference to the Israeli tactics ...

I'd worry more about my own country's misdeeds the forced conversion of non Muslims to Islam. the appropriation of non-Muslim property. The using of woman and children as pawns and human shields. The shooting of innocent civilians who voice an opinion different from the current regime.

Johnboy You have really gone around the bend. The Jenin 'massacre' investigation was called off after Amnesty and Human Rights Watch, two organizations which could hardly be called pro Israel, announced their investigation turned up no 'massacre' and even the Palestinians stopped trying to pedal such garbage.Yet you come up with some cockeyed conspiracy theory to blame Israel. Time to take a deep breath and come back to earth.

Israel withdrew from gaza and has no intention of going back. So what land did they want to "steal" last winter? I am sure that the ridicule of your post does not even hit you.

Shhhh, leoblue, mustn't talk about Dresden, or Tokyo for that matter. It seems the old proverb is true regarding indiscriminate bombing of civilians: "The victor writes the history books." There is a tremendous amount of atrocities and crimes committed by the Red Army, too, just so the lefties around here don't get too smug... Harry

How about trying the U. S. and great Britian for civilian deaths such as Dresden.

Richard Goldstone is accepted to be an ANC apparatchik as such he could produce no other report than one blaming Israel.

Besides you actually failed to defeat IRA militarily I guess that Bloody Sunday was perpetrated by Massad or IAF? Those guys who shot and killed an Irish girl coming from school were also Israelis. Do you want me to send you links to BBC articles documenting killing of civilians in Afghanistan? What kind of progress is achieved by NATO for the 8 years? There is no safe place in Afghanistan. People are getting killed by NATO and Taliban. Just recently there was anti-Canadian protest after the death of two boys was blamed on Canadian shell.

Another article, I think it was the NYT or WashPost, said the report blamed Israel for one illuminating instance. It seems Hamas herded unwilling civilians into a building and used them as shield. Israel was blamed for the civilian deaths in the report. Using human shields is a war crime. Int'l law makes it clear that the use of shields not only is a crime, but does not obviate an attack on combatants even though it is likely that shields will die. That the report blamed Israel for that incident is just one example of how corrupt and biased the investigation was.

entire massacre story was a lie. It was such a big lie that even the brazen among you could not continue with it.

r cummings the gentlemany condut you referred to in ulster is somewhat distant from the truth. there were numerous death squads set up by middle rank officers to take care of the more recalcitrant terrorists of the ira.

The UN Human Rights Council only demonizes Israel. The US has nothing to fear. They will surely let Goldstone into Afghanistan.

r cummings the british soldiers were involved in several cases of torture in basra.there were even a couple of cases of rape of young iraqi boys by the british soldiers.you had better update your knowledge. not a single case of rape of palestinians by the idf.not one.

It will take some time but sooner or later Israel is going to learn its lesson. The US and NATO are not targeting and aiming at innocent civilians as the IDF did in GAZA. Yes, civilians sometimes get killed erroneously in war but there is a difference between that and targeting civilian population as the IDF did.

getting caught in crossfire and targeted vicious killing of civilians. The US is not punishing civilians for terrorists living among them, Israel tried to punish the entire civilian Gaza population for voting for Hamas and this is certainly a war crime.

the Americans, who are the only ones who have the power to stop the report going to the ICC, will use it to whip a lot of concessions out of Israel to push forward the "peace process." It's called leverage and they're going to use every millimeter of it. Although this may give us the opportunity to pull the Iran strike off the table as a bargaining chip and instead promote it as a shared interest.

The immature israeli conscript who rampaged through Gaza did it to enforce a crime, the illegal attempt to seize as much of the occupied territory as possible, while sowing fear and terror. On the other the US marine or british paratrooper in Afghanistan is fighting a just war for the benefit of freedom and democracy, and not for the cause of trying to acquire what isnt ours.

...the report several times mentions testimony from soldiers and Breaking The Silence. The silence sure is broken and the lid is off the truth. Bummer.

Without a doubt, you have set your heart on the struggle for peace. However, Israel has not killed many thousands as you so state. Unless you include all the wars that Israel had to fight since 1948. However, you are discussing Gaza. I wonder how many have died in the Fatah / Hamas infighting. Israeli exports, actually help feed the West. Israeli exports, actually end up on Arab souks. Which Arab country can independently feed its own people? None..! Tough, you cannot drink or eat crude oil...Right.! Get the picture.!....Good. Now that you are in Australia, how will you contribute to the Palestinian cause, except by writing to Haaretz- Stephen hiding in Switzerland Israel is a net importer of food. It only produces about 70% of its needed requirements. Therefore it cannot feed itself. What Jewish country can independently feed its own people? In fact the 700 % figure would be much less if you subtract the agriculture products grown in the conquered and occupied territories. You may not be able to eat or drink crude oil. But you can certainly live well by selling it. Many Arab countries are self-sufficient with a positive trade balance and are truly financially independent. Israel is not. In fact Israel is the most heavily subsidized country in the world. A welfare state. Get the picture.!....Good.

"This is a dirty war, where terrorist like the Taliban Hammas Hizabalah ... display the same tactics and strategies. It takes time for the liberal West to understand this." You are from London. You will know well the Brits have fought a dozen such 'asymetrical' wars successfully, from Malaya and Cyprus through Northern Ireland and now Helmand. We and others are well used to the perils, pitfalls and tactics of fighting guerillas who don't wear uniforms or follow the normal rules. The west (even the liberal west) understands that (a) winning hearts and minds is the main goal, (b) targeting civilians is totally counter-productive and a war crime and (c) there are clear tactics to be used which, together with discipline, are far superior to those of the guerillas. Israel is following a diametrically opposite path. It doesn't appear to care a shekel for hearts & minds, targets civilian homes and uses conventional rather than counter-insurgency warfare. Hence Goldstone. Wise up there.

The US Marines used the same battle plan against al Qaida at Fallujah I. They had the same obstacles. and problems. The US Marines learned from that experience how to do it differently and successfully without the criminal errors & problems the IDF duplicated from Fallujah I. The IDF didn't study that part and weren't interested in learning those lessons and avoiding those errors. Fallujah I had to be re-fought as Fallujah II. It was done differently and much more successfully and without all the errors and civilian deaths that plagued Fallujah I.

The atrocities in Afghanistan are being committed by NATO, not just the US. No nations in history has practiced the policy of 'kill them all and let God sort it out' more assiduously than the USA and Great Britain. Take fire from a village, call in an airstrike and wipe it out. That is the American Way of War. Of course the US would stop an investigation. Though were we wise we would welcome it. Since WW II our favorite 'clean' form of warfare, airpower, has been the single force most responsible for people opposing us. We have killed far too many noncombatants in Afghanistan and that is the single factor which has aided recruiting for the Taliban. You do not win their hearts and minds by killing their women and children.

Obama will not 'extract but 'extort' concessions fron Israel

Yair/Yeheshkel/Alias. 'you are not a serious interlocutor r cummings.were we to enter a lebanese village we would be risking the lives of our soldiers.' So you admit that the IDF sits back and shells the villages, combatants, non-combatants et al? Rather like Cast Lead? That you see is the war crime: troops, even vaunted Israeli ones, are NOT allowed under international law to randomly target civilians because the world is trying to move on from such grim practices. Which part of NOT killing civilians don't you get? Other armies just do the business, they go from house to house and clear them one by one. Civilians are unharmed if they stand still and keep their hands in the air. That's how it was in N Ireland, in Basra and now in Helmand. Brave soldiers doing the right thing, rather than smacking homes with firepower from a safe distance. The USAF admittedly seems to have its problems, the direct result of imposing aerial bombing in a guerilla war, cf IAF.

because that is opening a Pandora Box in where American, Spanish and German officers will pay with hard currency as well. This is a dirty war, in where terrorist like the Taliban Hammas o Hizabalah despite ideological differences display the same tactics and strategies. It takes time for the liberal West to understand this. But precisely "Obama's involvment in Afghanistan,will sooner or later shift the balance in favour of Israel strategy of confrontation, despite Johnboy yelling. Israel was right in Gaza and Jenin, and the democratic world thanks to Obama will understand that.

It is disingenuous to equate the death of civilians in Afghanistan and those in Gaza. For the Americans, their goal is precisely to limit the number of civilian casualties, since they are trying to pacify the country. The Israelis, on the other hand, unleashed a campaign of wanton destruction in Gaza, with the aim of ending the rocket fire from Gaza. It seems that the idea of the campaign was to establish deterrence by showing Hamas that they wouldn't be constrained by international niceities, nor by notions of proportionality - any attack on Israel will be responded with as harshly as possible, civilian deaths and destruction of infrastructure be damned. In fairness, it must be said that this has proven successful thus far.

Respondents amazingly try to defend war crimes. Israel need never have got itself into the position of feeling it had to go to war. Years and years ago it should have engaged the UN in dealing with Gaza. It would have been advised not to occupy Gaza, not to build settlements and not to lay seige to Gaza. Its whole attitude towards Gaza predictably led to rockets.

It is clear that the US should let Goldstone into Afghanistan, and Iraq for that matter, but the fact that they don't does not take away from the fact that the IDF committed war crimes in it's assault on Gaza. These are not mutually exclusive facts. Deal with it.

Hamas is setting up rocket launchers, who I vote for, what I protest for, how to keep my son from joining a Islamic Fundamentalist gang, and finding a legitimate government that cares more for my own welfare than instigating armed conflict with a superior army. It doesn't take a genius to realize that in an armed conflict in a 360 square kilometer slice of land with 1.5 million people that civilians will be killed. It shouldn't take a genius to realize that firing rockets from Gaza to Israel, regardless where they land, will result in retaliation. Luckily for the UN and all those claiming proportionality they haven't experienced 8 years of "red alerts". It's the intent of those rockets, the intent of that government. I'm sorry but why should Israel judge Hamas on it's inaccuracies rather than the base fact that rockets continually threatened the whole of Southern Israel? Imagine Israel disengaging from West Bank, Hamas wins election, all of Israel is within rocket range.

Sitting in your armchairs in the US, a world away from the events in question, you nevertheless pontificate and pass ignorant judgments without any facts. If you actually talk to soldiers--as I have--they will tell you that terrorists in Gaza regularly fled into houses and emerged surrounded by children, and the IDF was ordered to let them go rather than risk harming civilians. They would come into houses through walls, because the doors were booby-trapped, notwithstanding the families cowering inside. Get some facts firsthand--no one will prevent you from talking to people--and then pontificate and pass judgments.

those who hide rockets being used against israel" you are not a serious interlocutor r cummings.were we to enter a lebanese village we would be risking the lives of our soldiers.

Who should probe the probers?There is a good reason for that.The permanent members of the UNSC are known for their"humanity", occupation,invations,regime change,killing civilians,use of non convantional weapons. They have tried it all,and they have a Carte-Blanch from the UN for all of that.What about probe of the UNSC,The club of abusers. "That is the hardest thing.It is much harder to judge yourself than to judge others.If you succeed in judging yourself,it's because you are truely a wise man".

all israeli actions are war crimes. all usa actions are "isolated incidents" also compare the sheer number of arab civilians killed by the usa with the number killed in our defensive war. the usa has killed hundreds of thousands in iraq. the killings in afghanistan continue.

what about the hundreds of thousands killed in iraq r cummings?are they also isolated mistakes? check the number of afghan civilians you have killed? also isolated mistakes?

now you turn against your friend (U.S) and ready to sink ur teeth into them just cause they decided to be mute for a few days to see how things will fold!!!! i always said it and i will keep on saying it with friends like israel who needs ENEMIES.

his stay in the region has opene his eyes.he has been threatened by palestinians for his views.

Mr. Oren should be more concerned about the racist apartheid policies of the state of israel, rather than getting involved in the activities of its US protector. Shifting responsibility and denying accountability will only hurt israel more. Based on my observations, the zionist and apartheid policies implemented by israel are, by far, a bigger threat to the jewish people's long term interests than any arab state. The israeli people better wake up and change course before its too late.

Without a doubt, you have set your heart on the struggle for peace. However, Israel has not killed many thousands as you so state. Unless you include all the wars that Israel had to fight since 1948. However, you are discussing Gaza. I wonder how many have died in the Fatah / Hamas infighting. Israeli exports, actually help feed the West. Israeli exports, actually end up on Arab souks. Which Arab country can independently feed its own people? None..! Tough, you cannot drink or eat crude oil...Right.! Get the picture.!....Good. Now that you are in Australia, how will you contribute to the Palestinian cause, except by writing to Haaretz.

suggests. It is a war crime to target civilian non-combatants full stop. The Hamas rocketeers and their command structure are guilty of a prima facie war crime and should face trial. If as alleged the IDF shelled civilian areas, etc., that too is a prima facie war crime and the perpetrators should face trial. Peretz was indeed wrong in declaring Lebanese civilians in whose homes launch-ready rockets were hidden as "involved," thus turning them into targets. Of course they were deemed to be involved and the military was entitled to occupy the building, arrest them and charge them. They were not however entitled to treat them as combatants and level the building with firepower. That too was a war crime. Yes, there are mistakes, accidents and isolated misdeeds in warfare and the Kunduz incident sounds like one of them. But Cast Lead is on an altogether higher plain, due to what looks like the deliberate targeting of civilians on a large scale by both sides.

You are saying that as long as Israel's enemy launches its attacks from within civilian populations, thus insuring response will cause civilian casualties, Israel can do nothing by way of defense without violating European sensitivities. The solution is simple: Europeans must convince Hamas, Hezbollah, or others not to launch rockets from their civilian areas.

What was the purpose of describing Baruch Goldsten as a "uniformed officer? Was it to imply that he was acting in some sort of official capacity? He dressed himself in the uniform to enable easy access to the mosque area. Mention of the Mai Lai massacre by forces of the US Army in the same paragraph is an attempt by the author to malign the IDF. Enough blatant lies have been told and written!

I don't deny that there are parallels, but I'm not sure the situations mentioned at the beginning of the article are exactly alike. Was Cast Lead aimed at releasing Shalit? I thought it was about stopping rocket fire? In any case, yes the U.S. should be open to fact-finding missions, if appropriate, but shouldn't Israel too? Can you really demand that the U.S. co-operate with something when Israel refused to do so?

It'll be a good, useful and hopefully salutary debate, however the specific case that provoked this article eventually turns out.

the key words: "ultimately it is about power.goldstone will never go to kunduz afghanistan to investigate civilian killings" as he indeed did not investigare chechenya.or the nato bombing of civilians in serbia.it is all about power.

"(Obama) will curb the propagandistic trend of slamming Israel for war crimes in order to extract tangible concessions" Of course this is what the whole CHARADE is all ABOUT. Cos "moderate" abbas and the palis have NOTHING to bring to the PEACE negotiations but they WANT ever MORE Israeli CONCESSIONS . It is the SAME thing with iran's nukes. t is the SAME thing with the Jewish settlements. t is the SAME thing with the Saudi peace initiative. It is the SAME thing with the US's call for Arab's NORMALISATION with Israel. Israel should CALL the BLUFF, lets the CHARADE takes its course (it's already OFF the TOP listing of BBC's online news) and STICKS to its DEMANDS for RECIPROCAL arab peace AGREEMENTS.

This is an interesting article but I think it misses something important. The enduring challenge or damage is not about image or popularity in the West, it will be about the law and about trade. Israeli goods and service providers have incredibly good terms for access to the EU market (and to the Nafta also actually) and there are a number of European standards of civilised behaviour which are clearly in breach. While of course governments in China, Russia, the U.S., the U.K. and France will try their hardest to protect Israel, in the legal system of the European Union the lasting damage of the embargo on medicines/food/essentials to Gaza - and the periodic killings of thousands of civilians in Gaza, Lebanon etc. - will be that the law of civilisation will triumph over the brute force of the IDF's undoubted brute power. Count on it.

"Only after Maj. Gen. Giora Eiland and UN envoy Terje Roed Larsen intervened was the committee called off." Amazing, isn't it, that Oren makes no attempt to explain WHY Larsen intervened..... One look at the time line tells you why, because it's abandonment was announced on the very day that Sharon lifted the IDF siege of Arafat's compound in Ramallah. Get it? Terje Roed Larsen called off the inquiry because Sharon was holding Arafat's life hostage i.e. if Larsen hadn'd called off that enquiry then those Palestinians were going to be killed. Is Israel going to play that game again, is it? So whose head is Netanyahu going to point a gun at?

Nobody pushes around Russia, the US, Brazil.

The US investigates and prosecutes. Israel excuses and hides. Captain R was promoted. Those who committed crimes at Fallujah I were prosecuted and were seen to be prosecuted, tried and convicted. In Gaza, the IDF obfuscated and ignored whenever possible. There is a difference between the IDF culture of impunity and that of the US armed forces. Even now, the incident with the Times reporter is being investigated. BTW, it was a Brit raid, not the US. The reporter was a Brit. The culture of impunity is not alive in either the Brit military nor the US military; it exists only in the IDF.