U.S. seeks 4-month East Jerusalem building freeze in return for direct talks

Scrutiny of Biblical and scholarly references vs. your unschooled opinions. 1.Palestinians ancestors among original inhabitants of Palestine. Sources: A.American Committee for Jerusalem B.Prof. Ariella Oppenheim, Department of Hematology Hebrew University-Hadassah Medical School. (Jerusalem, Israel) C.Tony Badran, Research Fellow with the Center for Terrorism Research at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies in Washington D.C. D.British anthropologist Sir James Frazer Jewish archaeologist Ilene Beatty. [31 Your opinion: "Even those immigrated from surrounding areas, numbskull?" 2.When Joshua led Israelites into Canaan, land was inhabited by semite tribes. Source: Hebrew Bible Your opinion: "You can repeat the stupidity every day until doomsday that doesn't mean Palestinians descended from people who disappeared 2,500 years ago." Comment: references in #1 above say they do. Same refs above say they didnt disappeared, any more than Jews did.

Occupied people have no concessions to make? Did Allies get concessions out of the Axis after they were occupied? Yes, screwball there were plenty of concessions in those treaties. The losers usually concede in real life. Let's examine your moronic fantasy for a moment. "But, historically, occupied, oppressed people have no concessions to make to their oppressors end the occupation." You say stupid crap like that because you're a moron. Can the Palestinians offer... Cessation of hostilities? What about a compromise on borders? Terminate the demand to flood Israel with combatants under the auspices of ROR? Protect Jewish sites? Arrest combatants? Stop incitement and educating their children to murder Jews? Can you imagine having to explain this to an adult American? Moron.

"What concessions could the occupied Europeans offer the Germans to end their occupation? " They made plenty of concessions, moron. So did the occupied Germans after they lost. " They have nothing to offer," You say stupid crap like that because you're an unimaginative, unscrupulous moron. Can the Palestinians offer... Cessation of hostilities? What about a compromise on borders? Terminate the demand to flood Israel with combatants under the auspices of ROR? Protect Jewish sites? Arrest combatants? Stop incitement and educating their children to murder Jews?

We realize that a big mouth, a modest I.Q. and a vocabulary mostly limited to insulting grade school level adjectives do not make an historian. But, historically, occupied, oppressed people have no concessions to make to their oppressors end the occupation. They have nothing to offer, except their undying animosity towards the people and country that have oppressed them. In the Palestinian case, oppressed them for almost 43 years. What concessions could the occupied Europeans offer the Germans to end their occupation? What could the Algerians and the Vietnamese offer the French as concessions to end their occupation? What could the Kenyans and the Cypriots offer the British? Can you imagine having to explain this to an adult American? One wonders if you could name another planet.

"Historically the occupying power makes the concessions:" Really? Not here on Earth. Which planet are you from?

Without a doubt, it would be too much to expect you to understand something cursory -- like -- the applicability of Article 6 is dependent upon the parameters espoused in Article 2. That is; the parameters in Article 2 must be met FIRST. If the parameters are not met, other variables are excluded. But, you are a simpleton, and a belligerent one. So, you'll argue exhaustively against that point, even though it is substantially obvious.

It is completely irrelevant that Arabs rejected the Israeli borders as dictated by UN resolution 181, under which Israel declared statehood and sovereignty. Israel did accept them. Are you so dumb that you believe every time Arabs reject an Israeli border, that border is no longer valid: no longer exists? It is a non-sequitur that "Arabs launched a war, kicked out all the Jews ... and Jews moved back, etc,." That has nothing to do with the issue. You asked, when this land belonged exclusively to Arabs, except for the period from 1948-67. To criticize Israeli policies is not anti-semitic any more than being opposed to Japans whaling activities is anti-Japanese. We are blessed that your vocabulary is so limited: you don't know the definition of anti-semite nor the word nimrod. Thanks for the complement: here is what nimrod means, idiot. "nimrod: a skillful hunter."

"Historically the occupying power makes the concessions" The party which wins the wars makes the concessions? Do you anti-Israeli morons grow on trees around here, or what?

SDHD: "And I was pointing out that it applies to high-contracting parties or those who agree to follow the Conventions, moron`s moron." But WHEN does it apply to HCP's, SDHD? At least Freddy made an attempt to answer that question, even if the answer he gave was wrong i.e. he said it ONLY applies to HCPs who are AT WAR. You keep repeating that it applies TO HCPs, and by saying that you are only giving half an answer. It is only half an answer because it still begs these questions: Does it apply to HCPs ALL THE TIME? Does it apply to HCPs only when they are AT WAR? Does it apply to HCPs WHEN THE CONVENTION SAYS SO? Does it apply to HCPs only when they decide that it is convenient to them? You never give an answer, SDHD. How odd..... it's not as if you haven't heard me asking...

SDHD: "When one of the parties terminates their claim, dopey. Jordan did." Where in Article 2 does it say that, SDHD? Quote, please... SDHD: "2 regards applicability, and that`s what I was discussing, moron." No, that statement is incomplete, precisely because BOTH Article 2 AND Article 6 "regard applicability". They are book-ends, and so must be discussed together i.e. Art 6 clearly says that the applicability of the Convention BEGINS when a condition in Art 2 is met, but once it BECOMES APPLICABLE then it can only cease to be applicable via the conditions listed in Article 6. One of those conditions is the termination of "occupation", and Israel has not met that condition in the West Bank. SDHD: "Of course, you`ll reply with some of your usual idiocy." I would say that a good definition of "idiocy" is this: "refusing to acknowledge that Art 6 exists even after it is pointed out to you".

One sided concessions? You want concessions from the Palestinians? Historically the occupying power makes the concessions: not the oppressed people. Israel is no different than any other occupying power in history. The same as the French in Algeria and Vietnam, the British in Kenya and Cyprus, and the Germans in occupied Europe. So the world wonders what the Palestinians have to offer to Israel as concessions. Could they match the concessions Israel has proffered toward the peace process? The 90 day freeze on settlement building, while continuing to build 3,000 housing units in the West Bank, and to place Jerusalem off limits for any building limits? Continuing the harsh and humiliating occupation in the West Bank? Maintain the near genocidal blockade over Gaza and continue the annexation of Jerusalem: both in violation of the 4th Geneva Convention? Or perhaps the construction of the barrier wall, which the UN ICJ has declared illegal?

"Now, SDHD, show me anything in Article 2 that indicates when that obligation - once applied - then lapses...." When one of the parties terminates their claim, dopey. Jordan did. "Ans: Nothing in Article 2 deals with the LAPSING of the applicability of GCIV, because that is what Article 6 is for." 2 regards applicability, and that's what I was discussing, moron. It applies to high-contracting parties at war, or between parties who agree to and ABIDE BY the Conventions. Of course, you'll reply with some of your usual idiocy.

"I was pointing out to Freddy that his claim that GCIV applies only to HCPs who are **at** **war** with each other is incorrect." And I was pointing out that it applies to high-contracting parties or those who agree to follow the Conventions, moron's moron.

SDHD: "And I can point out, once again, that it applies to high-contracting parties or to those who abide by the terms of the Conventions. " *sigh* I was pointing out to Freddy that his claim that GCIV applies only to HCPs who are **at** **war** with each other is incorrect. Do you agree with Freddy's statement, or don't you? SDHD: "Read the conventions again, clueless one -- particularly Article 2." Art 2: "the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties," That condition was met on June 5th 1967, and so the articles of GCIV became applicable to both Israel and Jordan from that moment on. Now, SDHD, show me anything in Article 2 that indicates when that obligation - once applied - then lapses.... Ans: Nothing in Article 2 deals with the LAPSING of the applicability of GCIV, because that is what Article 6 is for.

"I pointed out to SDHD exactly where he has failed to comprehend both: a) what Freddy was claiming (GCIV applies only during wartime) and b) my correction (Art6 says that GCIV continues to apply for as long as there is an "occupation")." And I can point out, once again, that it applies to high-contracting parties or to those who abide by the terms of the Conventions. Hence, your comprehension of what the Conventions state -- SUCKS. Read the conventions again, clueless one -- particularly Article 2.

I pointed out to SDHD exactly where he has failed to comprehend both: a) what Freddy was claiming (GCIV applies only during wartime) and b) my correction (Art6 says that GCIV continues to apply for as long as there is an "occupation"). And in response? SDHD: "You can take your personal 'emphasis,' and stick it. Anyone can read the Conventions." Well, everybody but you and Freddy, apparently.... I'll point out that I emphasised ONLY what Freddy said i.e. I did not emphasise what was in Article 6 of GCIV, and therefore SDHD's "retort" is a strawman. SDHD: "The way you distort the meaning of the English language makes you a laughing stock." Again, I made no attempt to "distort" the meaning of Article 6 of GCIV, which is As Plain As Day. But, then again, I've read Article 6. Unlike some people I can name, who can only resort to personal attack when it becomes clear that their argument is without merit.

"The Jewish population in 1900 was about 5%. " Try 30%. Then consider that it included most of Jordan at that time. SDHD, you are either egregiously deluded or disingenuous. Hundreds of books on Palestine mention the population, this is a quote from only one: "The Palestine of 1900 had a total population of c. 600,000. Of these, roughly 75% were Muslim Arabs, roughly 10% Christian Arabs, and the rest were Jews and others." Ami Ayalon, "Reading Palestine," 2004. In 1914, the population of the British Mandate was 700,000 divided into 615,000 Arabs and 85,000 to 100,000 Jews. Do the math. About 14% due to increased immigration. And the claim of the immigrants, who are all allowed "aliyah' without any documentation to prove that they or any ancestor had ever lived there or had property, is that GOD gave them the land millennia ago. The kingdoms of Israel (c. 1000BC - 722BC)and Judaea (c.1000BC-586BC) were wiped out, the population deported. Kaput.

"I`ll emphasize" You can take your personal "emphasis," and stick it. Anyone can read the Conventions. The way you distort the meaning of the English language makes you a laughing stock.

"I`ll emphasize" Your emphasis is irrelevant. Art. 2. In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace-time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them. The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance. Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.

not in the Israeli zionist dictionairy. The zionist state has recieved from the US financial aid in the order $150 billion since it came into existence. Even now with a thriving economy and a western standard of living, it recieves aid amounting to $5 billion per year from the US, wich is more then all poor developing countries combined. Now that the US is making a feeble beginning to try to bring Israeli policy to obey international law the zionists dare to scold and vilify the US and its government. Doing so, they forget that without this lavish US support, Isreal would not even exist. Who needs such friends?

"I`ll emphasize the half that he failed to comprehend: 4th Geneva Convention applies between States AT WAR." Let's take YOUR emphasis and flush it down the toilet. Art. 2. In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace-time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them. The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance. Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.

Which is, of course, always a pointless exercise. Witness... F: "4th Geneva Convention applies between States at war." JB: "Untrue." SDHD: "Not untrue. Applies to high contracting parties, imbecile." My friend SDHD has only comprehended one half of Freddy's statement, and that is why his comment to me is half-arsed nonsense. I'll emphasize the half that he failed to comprehend: 4th Geneva Convention applies between States AT WAR. I was perfectly correct to point out to Freddy that he is wrong, because Article 6 clearly says that there is a circumstance where the Convention continues to apply to a HCP EVEN AFTER THE WAR BETWEEN THE TWO HCPs HAS ENDED. That circumstance has a name, and that name is "occupation".

"Please pay attention. The name does not matter." Pay attention yourself. You said that already and I said there weren't that many of them. "There was no such thing as an "Israeli" before 1948." Which doesn't invent a people called Palestinians descended from the Canaanites. "The claim to the land called Canaan/Palestine is based on a tribal legend about a god who said that the Israelites were to have the land after some theft and genocide as described in Deuteronomy and Joshua. " Putz. Try immigrants descended from the natives purchasing property in the 19th and 20th century. "The Jewish population in 1900 was about 5%. " Try 30%. Then consider that it included most of Jordan at that time. "Because of the legend, Jewish immigrants began flooding" That it was a Jewish kingdom is a legend? "The Arabs who had been living for centuries" Very few. And the Jews who lived there for centuries? What about the Arabs who immigrated? Canaanites? Imbecilic fiction.

Please pay attention. The name does not matter. They can call themselves Palestinians if they wish. There was no such thing as an "Israeli" before 1948. The claim to the land called Canaan/Palestine is based on a tribal legend about a god who said that the Israelites were to have the land after some theft and genocide as described in Deuteronomy and Joshua. Many different peoples settled in Canaan/Palestine. The Jewish population in 1900 was about 5%. Because of the legend, Jewish immigrants began flooding into Palestine when it became convenient after almost 2000 years of ignoring the place. The Arabs who had been living for centuries had built villages and established a culture. They are now called Palestinians. They will never give up their struggle against the colonial invaders. Nothing you can say will alter this very basic fact.

" Historically the occupying power makes the concessions: " What concessions did the Allied powers make to the Axis powers after the Allies beat the living crap out of the Axis powers? Did the Allies pay reparations? No, that was a concession from the Axis to the Allies. Did the Allies allow the Axis to occupy their lands with military bases? No, the Allies still have military bases there to this very day. Did the Axis force the Allies into territorial concessions? No, parts of Axis powers were carved up. Did the Allies have to demilitarize? No, the Axis had to do that. How stupid are you, really?

"You have been told all this once before." And you still haven't figured out that repetition of your idiocy doesn't lend it additional credibility. "Why should you have to be told a second time, have you a retention problem? " You don't have to repeat yourself to me. But, why do think your idiocy doesn't stand up to scrutiny? "Palestinian ancestors were among the original inhabitants of Palestine." Even the ones who immigrated from surrounding areas, numbskull? "When Joshua led the Israelites into Canaan, also known at that time as Palestine, the land was inhabited by (among others) semite tribes," You can repeat that stupidity every day until doomsday. It doesn't mean that today's Palestinians are descended from people who disappeared over 2500 years ago. Why don't you name a Canaanite from each of the last 20 centuries, instead of repeating yourself, moron? They've had written history there for the last 5000 years, you know.

One sided concessions? You want concessions from the Palestinians? Historically the occupying power makes the concessions: not the oppressed people. Israel is no different than any other occupying power in history. The same as the French in Algeria and Vietnam, the British in Kenya and Cyprus, and the Germans in occupied Europe. So the world wonders what the Palestinians have to offer to Israel as concessions. Could they match the concessions Israel has proffered toward the peace process? The 90 day freeze on settlement building, while continuing to build 3,000 housing units in the West Bank, and to place Jerusalem off limits for any building limits? Continuing the harsh and humiliating occupation in the West Bank? Maintain the near genocidal blockade over Gaza and continue the annexation of Jerusalem: both in violation of the 4th Geneva Convention? Or perhaps the construction of the barrier wall, which the UN ICJ has declared illegal?

You have been told all this once before. Why should you have to be told a second time, have you a retention problem? Palestinian ancestors were among the original inhabitants of Palestine. When Joshua led the Israelites into Canaan, also known at that time as Palestine, the land was inhabited by (among others) semite tribes, Hittites, Amorites and Jebusites. The Jebusites had already built Jerusalem, and inhabited it for over a 100 years after the Israelites entered Canaan.The names Arab and Jew weren't known then. In the academic world there are many notable historians and scholars who have determined that the Jebusites are the forebears of Palestinians. According to the New York University School of Medicine, and the National Academy of Sciences, Middle East Jewish men and Palestinian, Lebanese and Syrian men have the same genetic signature, different from any other non-Jews in the world.

You obviously haven't the slightest idea of US policies and activities in Africa. The US provides aid to 47 nations in Africa. In 2008, US contribution to the OECD programs in Africa was $26 billion. But the US in Africa should be of no interest to you Jews, nor should Obama personally invest as much of his concern and emotion in Africa and he does in the Israeli Palestinian debacle. Because Israel, not Africa, directly affects US national interests. This issue, and the unstinting US support for Israel, despite decades of Israeli violations of international law, foments anti-American sentiment. Arab anger over the Palestine question limits US partnerships in the region and it weakens the legitimacy of moderate Arab regimes. Al Qaeda and other militant groups exploit that anger to mobilize support. It also gives Iran influence in the Arab world through its support to Hizbollah and Hamas. It means US interests dictate it give up its one-sided support for Israel.

" #154 SDHD, have you said anything of significance?" Depends on the audience. What you consider to be significant is irrelevant to me. "First, Abraham and Exodus are merely tribal legend, not factual proof. " That's nice. I've never mentioned, nor discussed either. But, here's a pat on the head for you as motivation to continue with straw man arguments anyway. "Second, the name does not matter. There have always been inhabitants in Palestine who have been living there or nearby for centuries" Not very many of them. Why are there so many now? "In 1902, Sir James Frazer, in his book The Golden Bough, which argued his thesis about the origins of religion, speculated " That's nice. Someone in 1902 speculated. Here's another pat on the head for you. 1902 was after 40 years of widespread immigration. Can you find some texts about, "Palestinians" from each of the centuries between the 1st and 18th by any chance? I doubt it. That's a good boy. Here's another pat on the head for you.

First, Abraham and Exodus are merely tribal legend, not factual proof. Second, the name does not matter. There have always been inhabitants in Palestine who have been living there or nearby for centuries: " ..the Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements. In 1902, Sir James Frazer, in his book The Golden Bough, which argued his thesis about the origins of religion, speculated that the majority of Palestinian Arabs are descendants of the ancient Jebusites and Canaanites: "The Arabic-speaking peasants of Palestine are the progeny of the tribes which settled in the country before the Israelite invasion. Read more: Palestine (USA) - The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem:1917-1988, Demographics http://encyclopedia.stateuniversity.com/pages/16635/Palestine-USA.html#ixzz0jtUbSV4P the

The Arabs rejected the borders, launched a war, kicked out all the Jews from the territories which came under Arab control, launched another war, and Jews moved back in, nimrod.

1) The pseudo-intellectual approach: Porath admitted the increase in the population of Palestine was higher. He came up with some lame "from the mountains to the sea" excuse to rationalize the flaw in his theory. Funny thing is... Egypt and Lebanon have mountains as well and share the same sea. 2) Common sense: With a significant increase in Jewish immigration comes a need for construction labor (housing, industrial, infrastructure), agricultural labor, factory workers, and mercantile. Since you are one of those faux "intellectuals" who prefers esoteric theory and name-dropping to common sense and eyewitness accounts, you favor position number 1, and make a miserable attempt to challenge me on my education level. Poor, clueless bastard.

He's a dunce who meanders into fallacies which have been disproven, even by their own proponents. 1) Porath admitted the increase in the population of Palestine was higher. He came up with some lame "from the mountains to the sea" excuse to rationalize the flaw in his theory. Funny thing is... Egypt and Lebanon have mountains as well and share the same sea. 2) With a significant increase in Jewish immigration comes a need for construction labor (housing, industrial, infrastructure), agricultural labor, factory workers, and mercantile. Since you are one of those faux "intellectuals" who prefers esoteric theory and name-dropping to common sense and eyewitness accounts, you favor position number 1, and make a miserable attempt to challenge me on my education level. Poor, clueless bastard.

Your name doesn't sound Arabic, but you are lying and inventing new facts. Section III of the 2nd Geneva Convention contains 15 articles listing obligations and limitations on activities of armed forces in occupied territories. UN resolutions and the articles of the 4th Geneva Convention in which Israel is in violation refer to territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 war. Israel is in violation of UN Security Council resolutions, 242 (1967),452 (1979) and 465 (1980) and 17 others.The building of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, the annexation of Jerusalem and the Gaza blockade are in violation of Articles 33, 49, 53 and 147 of the 4th Geneva Convention and of the 1st Protocol article 85 of the Convention. These violations can be prosecutable in the International Criminal Court in the Hague as a war crime. Are you sure you are not an Arab?

One wonders where you have been for the last 42 years, but it's time for you to learn what happened to Palestinian land from 1948 until today 1 April 2010. On 14 May 1948, under UN resolution 181, Israel declared statehood, with sovereignty within precisely, meticulously detailed borders dictated by the resolution. The remainder of the territory in Palestine was Palestinian. In 1967, Israel occupied the remainder of Palestine. UN resolution 242 then demanded Israel withdraw from the occupied Palestinian territories. Israel has refused and is in violation of that resolution, and thus international law. Therefore, the West Bank and Gaza, and Jerusalem for that matter, are not legally part of Israel. Israeli built settlements on the occupied lands, the blockade of Gaza, collective punishment of a civilian population, and the annexation of Jerusalem are violations of articles of the 4th Geneva Convention. Breaches of the Convention are considered war crimes.

You, sir, are the most confused contributor I have witnessed. There is not one factual comment in your posting. 1.The US is engaged in armed forces combat operations against enemy armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is not in violation of any UN resolution nor any article of the 4th Geneva Convention. You are intellectually dishonest for making the charge. 2.Israel did not relinquish 94% of land conquered in 1967. That is a blatant lie. 3.UNSC 242 demands Israeli armed forces withdraw from land occupied in 1967 war. There is no mention of land against peace. 94% of land is enough according to the resolution, is nonsense. The 94% is a lie, and the resolution has no such wording. You have not read UN 242.
 4.West Bank and Gaza were not left to Israel by Egypt and Jordan. UN resolutions determined the lands are both one Palestinian entity. 5.Israel is in violation of 4 articles of the 4th Geneva Convention: such breaches are considered war crimes.

What education do you possess. Any formal education beyond high school. Any serious reading on this subject beyond zio-websites with catchy quotes and factoids to support prejudiced fools. HAVE YOU READ MANY BOOKS on the subject? Only your comments make it plain that you have practically no knowledge beyond that scoured from some propaganda sites for the credulous. "As for your childlike retort(the idiot means Yehoshua Porath's childlike retort since I quote him) Poor imbecile". SDHD. "Poor imbecile. Why didn`t this affect any other Arab population?" SDHD, the retarded one. Porath and I, poor imbeciles we! Well why don't you check that out first for YOURSELF, before making yourself look like a prat??? Is Egypt Arab enough for you dumbkopf??? "This growth was quite slow till the 1840's, but since then the Egyptian population grew up to about 7 million by the 1880's, and the first modern census registered 9, 734, 405 people in Egypt in 1897. This was achieved by A RADICAL DECREASE IN MORTALITY RATES and concomitant growth of life expectancy by 10-15 years" McCarthy, J. 1976. Nineteenth-Century Egyptian Population. Middle Eastern Studies 12.3: 1-39; Panzac, D. 1987. The Population of Egypt in the Nineteenth Century. Asian and African Studies 21: 11-32. Oh my, a "radical decrease in mortality rates" affecting OTHER Arab populations in Egypt at the same time as in Palestine even without an influx of Marks and Spencers into Egypt! Now ,what next brains? "Poor imbecile. Why didn`t this affect any other Arab population? " SDHD Whether you agree with Porath or not is too comical a thought for me to entertain. You show yourself to be an ignoramus, albeit a very proud one. Go study something, surely you can't be too old to read a few decent books?

"As for your childlike retort(the idiot means Yehoshua Porath?s childlike retort since I quote him)-"Poor imbecile. Why didn`t this affect any other Arab population?" SDHD (the retarded one) Well why don?t you check that first before making yourself look like a prat who has no academic background, no reading and no books, only zio friendly websites to scour? Is Egypt Arab enough for you??? "This growth was quite slow till the 1840s, but since then the Egyptian population grew up to about 7 million by the 1880s, and the first modern census registered 9 734 405 people in Egypt in 1897. This was achieved by A RADICAL DECREASE IN MORTALITY RATES and concomitant growth of life expectancy by 10-15 years" McCarthy, J. 1976. Nineteenth-Century Egyptian Population. Middle Eastern Studies 12.3: 1-39; Panzac, D. 1987. The Population of Egypt in the Nineteenth Century. Asian and African Studies 21: 11-32. Oh my a "radical decrease in mortality rates" affecting other Arab populations in Egypt. Now what brains? "Poor imbecile. Why didn`t this affect any other Arab population? " SDHD Whether you agree with Porath or not is too comical a thought for me to entertain. You show yourself to be an ignoramus, albeit a very proud one. Go study something, surely you cant be too old to read a few books?

SDHD `widely known before Joan Peters` #143 drunk: "Really? Well I can tell you it was widely known to be crap before and since Joan Peters." Oh? Then you can point out to some sort of texts which back up accounts of a large Palestinian population in the 19th century, imbecile. "That growth resulted from a new factor: the demographic revolution. Until the 1850s there was no "natural" increase of the population, but this began to change when modern medical treatment was introduced and modern hospitals were established, both by the Ottoman authorities and by the foreign Christian missionaries." Poor imbecile. Why didn't this affect any other Arab population? It's because there was no booming economy developed by the Jews anywhere else.

You, sir, are the most confused contributor I have witnessed. There is not one factual comment in your posting. 1.The US is engaged in armed forces combat operations against enemy armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is not in violation of any UN resolution nor any article of the 4th Geneva Convention. You are intellectually dishonest for making the charge. 2.Israel did not relinquish 94% of land conquered in 1967. That is a blatant lie. 3.UNSC 242 demands Israeli armed forces withdraw from land occupied in 1967 war. There is no mention of "land against peace." 94% of land "is enough according to the resolution," is nonsense. The 94% is a lie, and the resolution has no such wording. You have not read UN 242.
 4.West Bank and Gaza were not left to Israel by Egypt and Jordan. UN resolutions determined the lands are both one Palestinian entity. 5.Israel is in violation of 4 articles of the 4th Geneva Convention: such breaches are considered war crimes.

One wonders where you have been for the last 42 years, but it's time for you to learn what happened to Palestinian land from 1948 until today 1 April 2010. On 14 May 1948, under UN resolution 181, Israel declared statehood, with sovereignty within precisely, meticulously detailed borders dictated by the resolution. The remainder of the territory in Palestine was Palestinian. In 1967, Israel occupied the remainder of Palestine. UN resolution 242 then demanded Israel withdraw from the occupied Palestinian territories. Israel has refused and is in violation of that resolution, and thus international law. Therefore, the West Bank and Gaza, and Jerusalem for that matter, are not legally part of Israel. Israeli built settlements on the occupied lands, the blockade of Gaza, collective punishment of a civilian population, and the annexation of Jerusalem are violations of articles of the 4th Geneva Convention. Breaches of the Convention are considered war crimes.

The Prez got Bibi and Abbas to sit down for direct negotiations. Before they started the negotiations, Bibi said - I need to relate to you a little story: "When Moses arrived in the Promised Land of Israel about 3,000 years ago, he went for a swim to refresh himself. When he got out of the water, all of his clothes were gone." With that Abbas jumps up and says: "Wait a minute - you can't blame us for that one, we weren't even here then!" To which Bibi responded: "Now that we have that straight, we can start the negotiations."

You have a superb idea. Withdrawal of US aid would be a blessing for the US. Israel is a serious liability for the US, and few Americans realize it.The US has protected Israel for 60 years: in the UN with vetoes, guaranteed international loans and aid, last year, $3 billion. Since 1948, total cost to US is over $3 trillion. The US has sacrificed its own national interests in the ME for Israels. And Muslim radicals attack us because of it. Its been a bad investment. US receives little from its unnatural relationship with Israel. Israel says US benefits because: (1) Israel is the only democracy in Middle East. False (2) Israel is military bulwark for US in ME. Irrelevant. In the Gulf War, Israeli participation would have destroyed the coalition. (3) Israel leads in the war on terrorism. False The best US allies on war against Al Qaeda and the Taliban are Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Kuwait and the Gulf States. Israel plays no role in that war: Hamas and Hezbollah don't attack the US.

Really? Well I can tell you it was widely known to be crap before and since Joan Peters.More especially since the work of a particularly highly regarded Israeli historian in debunking Joan Peters silly little book. I doubt you are even familiar with the history so let me introduce to you the preeminent Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath :Professor Emeritus of Middle East History at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He specialises in the history of the Palestinian nationalist movement. He is possibly as right wing as you(likudnik)but unlike you he has a proper education. He explains the 'main' reason for Arab population growth during the latter 19thC: "As all the research by historians and geographers of modern Palestine shows, the Arab population began to grow again in the middle of the nineteenth century. That growth resulted from a new factor: the demographic revolution. Until the 1850s there was no "natural" increase of the population, but this began to change when modern medical treatment was introduced and modern hospitals were established, both by the Ottoman authorities and by the foreign Christian missionaries. The number of births remained steady but infant mortality decreased. This was the main reason for Arab population growth, not incursions into the country by the wandering tribes who by then had become afraid of the much more efficient Ottoman troops." Porath Your turn to 'try debunking history'.

When the Arab leaders want peace you will have it. They cannot have their population ask too many questions. With Israel always in the press they and their hidden bank accounts are safe. What they do in Dubia says in Dubia

The Philistines were wiped out 3000 years ago, moron. You want to provide evidence of a direct link between today's Palestinians and the Philistines? Good luck! Moving to a region and naming yourself after that region doesn't make you a native related to the indigenous population from thousands of years before.

(snr and jnr)in the Saudi pay? LOL!!!

Did you read the Bible? who are the Filastin Samson killed destroying the Temple?

Read the varying statements by first-person accounts in the 19th and early 20th centuries... See how many more pitiful excuses you can manufacture (the nonsensical refutations from palestineremembered.com about Mark Twain's observations are weak): http://www.imninalu.net/myths-pals.htm

"Before you call Mary a "dingdong," check for bats in your belfry, SDHD. The populations of the Eastern countries were also quite small in the 19th c. Mark Twain was travelling through Palestine in the middle of summer" Right. And no one went out during summer. They hid underground along with their entire villages and structures, right? He said it was the most barren place he had ever seen, and though HE had no problem traveling there during the summer, the so-called, "natives" didn't? "he did not visit every single village" Did he HAVE to to see that hardly anyone lived there? Have you looked at photos of the region from the 19th century? Are the photos as uninformed as Twain? Twain was there in the 19th century, dimwit, YOU were not. "He also says that Greece is deserted:" Nonsense. He described PARTS of Greece which were deserted and OTHER parts of Greece which were not. "So read the whole book" I did. You're trying to misrepresent it.

paid by the Saudis? truly credulous.

single Israel out for the kill. He has little time to try and accomplish this impossible feat. The Saudi's have been trying before Israel's rebirth. Obama's ego builds a world of failure attached to this dastardly deed.

of a failing policy to twist Israel's arm to make her cede HER and to her Enemy. Not working, thank G-d.

As Nancy Reagan used to say, "Just say NO". Israel has waited long enough to claim what is hers. When Obama cedes Washington DC back to the indians, we can talk.

Before you call Mary a "dingdong," check for bats in your belfry, SDHD. The populations of the Eastern countries were also quite small in the 19th c. Mark Twain was travelling through Palestine in the middle of summer, when there was not much movement about, he did not visit every single village, he would have to have zigzagged. He describes mostly Arab-populated Nablus, however, as a fertile place of black soil, he praises Haifa's groves. He also says that Greece is deserted: "...hardly ever an isolated house. Greece is a bleak, unsmiling desert, without agriculture, manufactures, or commerce, apparently." (The Innocents Abroad, p. 203) So read the whole book, not just a few misleading passages which purportedly justify a Jewish invasion into an unpopulated land. Remember that the Jewish population was only about 9% in 1900.

F: "4th Geneva Convention applies between States at war." JB: "Untrue." Not untrue. Applies to high contracting parties, imbecile.

Tell us exactly when this land belonged exclusively to Arabs, except for the period from 1948-67 (when Jordan captured it and kicked all the Jews out).

President Obama has cornered Israel. He has outmaneuvered Bibi fair and square. Take the deal. It does not mean that Jerusalem will be divided. The Pals will screw things up as they always do.

as the U.S is to arab oil

I wasn't talking about populations in Roman times. I was talking about the 19th century. Did you think there was a Roman Caesar when the Zionist movement began, or when Twain visited the region?

This has been widely known before Joan Peters ever wrote about it. Try debunking history.

the Obama admin cannot dictate to Israel, an independent democrat country what to do. Israel does not tell Obama not to build in Texas. Obama better take care of Iran nuclear and its problems at home with unemployment and health care

Sorry Daniel. You solution does not fit in with israel's policy of ethnic cleansing in Jerusalem.

They want what belongs to us territorial, and spiritually. But they will never admit it.

"Israel has an obligation under the Fourth Geneva Convention to STOP all illegal settlements" and Palestinians must abide with UN 1947 resolution and Geneva cpnvention Stop illegal war againstg israel since 1948

F: "4th Geneva Convention applies between States at war." Untrue. Article 2 says that it BECOMES "applicable" when two states (e.g. Jordan and Israel) go to war. But Article 2 doesn't say when it ceases i.e. you have to go to Article 6 to determine when GCIV CEASES to apply to two warring states. And Article 6 says that the articles of GCIV cease to be "applicable" as soon as the war ends EXCEPT where there is "occupation", where some articles CONTINUE to apply for as long as that occupation persists. 43 years and counting..... F: "We signed peace with Jordan and Egypt" Irrelevent to Art 6 F: "UN 242 requests Israel to give back land against peace" Irrelevent to Art 6. F: "94% of the land is certainly enogh according to that resolution." Irrelevent to Art 6. The West Bank CONTINUES to be occupied, and so GCIV CONTINUES to be apply there - including Art 49, which unconditionally prohibits the colonization of occupied territory.

A moderate request Obama asking Israel to freeze building new settlements in Jerusalem &that is only for Abbas talking with Nethanyahu! Childish but true? What can be done in 4 months that was not possible in more than 60 years! It can't be a delaying tactics,because it is nonsense & it will help no one to solve any problem! Israel made it clear; its core demand is Jerusalem; the top of Israel demands.Abbas must be fully aware of that &if his answer is negative what Abbas wants the 4 months for? Isn't better for all parties either to call all negotiations a useless exercise its time past & it is time to omit this conflict from the list of the international world's problems & let Palestinians & Israel settle matters between themselves? No mediators or messengers,no U.Nor Security Council, just Israel v Palestinians. Outside interference making this conflict going for ever;once Israel winning &Palestinians losing &another time the opposite. That how it will ends;why not now

Well that just says it ALL, doesn't it? The sooner the U.S. washes its hands of Israel the better we'll be. (How much from OUR taxes goes to Israel every year?) From the comments, Israel will be happy too. But if that ever does happen (G-D willing!) we here in the states will physically be able to hear the magnitude of whining coming from across the ocean. Good luck, whatever luck you can find without a friend in the world...

"Don`t be silly. There were relatively few people living anywhere during the Roman time," I wrote about the 19th century and the Zionist movement, and you come back with something about Roman times? Who was Caesar during Mark Twain's visit to the region?

"The thesis is bunk discredited almost as soon as the ink dried on the once heard of Joan Peters." This was known before Joan Peters even studied the subject. Explain the massive change in population figures.

"Palestinians" today were recent immigrants to the region... drawn to it by a growing economy which was elevated due to the interest of Jews who immigrated there. SDHD The thesis is bunk discredited almost as soon as the ink dried on the once heard of Joan Peters.

Don't be silly. There were relatively few people living anywhere during the Roman time, compared to populations of today. Do you expect us to believe that only Jews had as many people then as now?

It's time for you to start examining your own motives. These malicious tirades block your ability to think clearly.

it is you who are foreigners trying to set the agenda in OCCUPIED East Jerusalem and the rest of the Palestinian areas taken in 67. It is Israel that is bullying others with forced evictions etc not vice versa. Many of us do not detest you, me least of all with my family links to Israel, but we do detest what people with your views are prepared to condone

Once you swallow this kind of bait it will be next to impossible to undo it. The more you give the more they want. there is no end to it. There are no easy choices; the hard choice this time has to be: NO MORE.

Your knowledge of History, the Bible and Biblical Archaeology is ZERO.

but SHARED between two People!

You are right No more land grabbing!

that you have never read the Palestinian Charter . It should be annulled before any agreements may be signed by Israel. Regards.

"these terrorist arabs will not accept.they want all of my home". What was taken by force must be returned by force! Palestinians were not part of Irugn and Gangstern terrorist groups led by israeli PM Manahem Begin!

Just say NO!!! This is just a ruse and EVERY gentile in the world sees through it. We, the human beings of the world are with you! The Sons of Light are coming to your rescue, and soon. The Sons of Darkness are doomed! And you will be given a place of Honor at the Table of Nations. For you will have been their LAST victims.

"the Palestinians were the people living there since at least the time of the Romans." Nonsense. Very few people were living there. Most of the people who refer to themselves as, "Palestinians" today were recent immigrants to the region... drawn to it by a growing economy which was elevated due to the interest of Jews who immigrated there. You want to know what it was like? Look at all the photos from the 19th century, and read accounts from people who were actually there. That you believe these millions of "Palestinians" were descended from people who were there for 2000 years is ridiculous.

This means that poor Obama is little by little is caving in to AIPAC+Co. zionists are the winner again!

Arabs didn't concede anything when they attacked Israel instead of conforiming to the UN Partition Plan and that goes for all the wars that followed, each and every one started by the Arabs So, if you're going to insist on Israel abiding by the Geneva Convention, tell the Arabs to start doing the same!! Oslo also called for Fatah to remove the clause from their Charter that called for the destruction of Israel, it STILL HASN'T BEEN REMOVED!!!

UN Resolution 465 demands it. Israel is gross violation of international law as it stubbornly erects settlements illegally. End the occupation.

Israel needs bullying. After all, the best way to stop a bully is to give him a taste of his own medicine. Israel needs telling what is good for it. Or else it will keep on pursuing dangerous policies which threaten its future and that of its neighbors. Foreigners must have say in agenda unless Israel wishes to tell the US to go to hell and they build their wall AROUND the whole of Israel. Israel must be lectured. After all, after Netanyahu had met Bill Clinton and lectured him for the first time it was Clinton who said of bibi "who the fu--ing hell does he think he is...followed by who's the fu--ing superpower?" Those who detest Israel do not include Obama, he merely detests Israeli arrogance and bellicosity mixed in with deceit.

American Jews support Obama overwhelmingly. And they should. Netanyahu, the Moldavians and the religious fanatics will destroy Israel. And all the super-militant Talkbackers will be accomplices to the death of the Zionist dream.

Obama is trying to wear BiBi-Israel out. The plan of satan remains to divide & conquer Israel - Jerusalem. DON'T be DECEIVED ! God gave the land to ISRAEL .. it remains with ISRAEL. Do NOT sell your soul for a bowl of Esau stew .. O Israel !

We have spent more than 1 billion shekels and growing in order to complete this "fact on the ground" as our former PM Ariel Sharon so ably put it. Once we have the land and the PALS have to accept it, we can build anything we want on it. Not nice, but effective.

You argue that Abbas should not agree to negotiate while Netanyahu is still building, because Netanyahu will drag out the negotiations as long as possible to get more land. The trouble is, while Abbas waits for Netanyahu to stop building so they can negotiate, Netanyahu will keep building. The longer Netanyahu can postpone talks, te more land he gets. Abbas loses no matter what. Maybe change the rules. Palestine gets the land regardless, but Israeli population centers in Palestine remain and get protected by PA police, and bring in revenue? No, Israel heavily subsidises those areas now and would stop doing so, so they will decay quickly. Israelis would not want to live there even if it is completely safe. Guest workers might want to live there and commute into Israel, people who can't afford Israeli rents. I don't see any good solution. But if we don't get an agreement now it will just keep getting worse.

40 years of US veto, arm deals, unbalanced policy and injustice ! 40 years of land grab and dispossessions ! and now you moan because this conflict is ready to be solved FAIRLY ? Israel should be happy, end occupation, dismantle settlements, recognize Palestine, the sufferings of the palestinian people and Jerusalem as capital and keep a low profile. Don't you think ? time to accept reality. Sweet sweet smell of justice is in the air ! and it's about time !

"It is Israel`s Land since ancient time." Since the State of Israel was founded only in 1948, your claim is foolish.

Posted: "It is Israel`s Land since ancient time. Israel should say NO to external entities that try to play god on Israel." First of all most of Israel is situated on lands it stole from the Palestinian people. These lands were inhabited by Palestinians way before any Jew ever settled on them. The reason that the Palestinians are fighting, is to regain their freedom and lands and be able to create a state of their own. They are being tortured and killed every day at the habds of Israel and the IDF. Their water and electricity are cut off as well as medical supplies that are sent from abroad and their farm lands are destroyed by the Israeli army. What would you do in if you had to live like that? I hope some day you Americans will live under an Israeli like occupation, maybe then you will realize that you were supporting criminals. Your post shows how ignorant and uneducated the American public is.

on Israeli governing matters what so ever. For if the pals would like anything at all, they the pals should enter dialoge on their own vailition, does babba always have to do their talking. No more demands from hamas/fatah or any other arab entity within the borders of the Jewish state. For what Bibi and the government needs to do is strengthen All things jewish in the land of Israel, historical sites should be marked, street signs (Hebrew). No tolerance for arab/bedouin sabatage, incitment, arab education system has to be approved by israeli minister of education. This land is in the hands of the humans who conqured it against all odds. The time has come for action all jewish action on all fronts, if the arabs dont like then they should pack up their camels and leave. They could go in any direction and end up in a islamic country, tayeb/ok the chice is there's!!!

You have no locus-standi to ask Israel (or any other existing nation) not to build in its own capitol!

Let's face it; the present Israeli government is pulling Israel away from reality. The settlements has created a huge gap between Israel and many of its previous supporters.

trying to expand more than it can handle, Israel will end up exploding and losing any chance for a Jewish state. No need to be a rocket scientist to predict this ineluctable truth.

It is becoming absurd, soon they will want land for talks instead of land for peace. This is all about the vanity of Obama. If the Palestinians dont want to talk why push them. Israel needs no talks.

A solution to some of the problems of building in Jerusalem might be to 1) stop building segregated housing. Reserve half of the proposed new units for the non-jewish residents of Jerusalem as well as former residents who left due to housing shortages with all residents being required to sign on to a covenant of peace, all disputes to be solved without recourse to violence and 2) Invite the PA to have representatives on a planning without prejudice to future arrangements as they have an interest in what goes on. These two measures if they do not defuse the situation would throw the ball into their side of the court.

Obama is both candid and unfair: -candid, because he believes in "peace against land" principle,but past shows right the opposite. The best example is Gaza. -unfair. 2 reasons for that: 1)he is supposed to be a mediator and as such he is not due to set any pecondition and still less imposing the least precondition pertaining to the core issues,to one or to the other party. 2)he made the Pal conditions his own requests. In others words Obama is no longer a mediator but the negociator for the Pal behalf,using his strong position to force Israel hand. This is why Israel should not accept any freeze request from Obama.It doesn't make any sens to reject the Pal request while accepting the same request from Obama.

For those of you who tire of Obama?s meddling and the rest of the world meddling. i have a very simply way to get the world of your back... it's quite simple really... make peace... oh... you can't? because of your hard-line ideology??? then others will have to step in and dictate for the sake of the safety of the entire world... your actions put every man and every woman on this planet at risk... so you bet if you will not take real actions the rest of the world will have no choice for the safety of its citizens to dictate peace... so if you do not want that... MAKE PEACE!!!

Obama & the new rules of Democracy : Use the small countries in your strategy ! If that is what change is all about, Israel is better go back to its roots in what our fathers teaches us ! Obama is not making history ! He is playing with history for his own reasons. I can't help to wonder if he is not doing as others did before him like Mao's Red Book & Khadaffi's blue book ! What the world missing is the other colors of the rainbow !

Jerusalem is the Capital of Israel and no restrictions of any kind should be placed, and development to the Jordan River should be allowed.

Obama is wrong. He should not ask Israel to freeze settlements on occupied land for four or ten months. He must ask the Israelies to move to its 1967 borders without delay. Period.

It is Israel's Land since ancient time. Israel should say NO to external entities that try to play god on Israel.

so...Israel only has to follow SOME int. law for only four months - after that they can get back to 'business as usual'. Basically, just POSTPONING the illegal settlement construction seems enough for Obama. I just don't get this: if Israel says 'we're not doing it now, just later'...then it's all fine with Obama??

Israel has to freeze construction in Jerusalem (its capital, but never mind that), in exchange for the (high and mighty) Palestinians agreeing to talk with Israel. I thought it was the Palestinians who wanted a state.... shouldn't they be the ones wanting to talk?

No more concessions.The enemy just demands, Israel will not give in FOR ZILCH. Right on the button Ralph. Many Americans are sick of Obama..

Yes Stop building in DC, and we can talk. What's good foe the goose,is good for the gander

"obama has drawn a line in the sand" our collective reply in more tolerant moments is quite simply how dare you threaten us.

no bulllying of israel no telling israel what is good for us no to foreigners setting the agenda no to being lectured no being told by those we know detest us. let the citizens of israel speak about their future.obama has no part to play.

obama and his crew are claiming that israel is a danger to us interests. this claim is both false and malicious. without israel to act as a buffer against the islamists, the united states would be faced with an additional terror entity.

of the overly friendly words he used in talking to us.we would show him cap on head at the wall and cap in hand to the people of israel. we would show clips of him promising undying love to the good citizens of sderot and how he understood that israel must defend itself. that is of course now just history.

"The Geneva convention exlpicitly explains that any land captured in a defensive war is NOT occupied territory." That is a downright lie.

There's no way Israeli occupation can be construed as legitimate by anyone that's familiar with the Geneva Conventions, maybe you are one of the deluded people who live in the Lah Lah Land of Paul Harris, aka Veronica Hardman, who still believes in the San Remo convention, which expired along with the British mandate on Palestine.

i seek only to set the record straight.i quote his words to aipac.the readers are entitled to know exactly what he said.i do not express an opinion.

"jerusalem will remain the capital of israel and it will remain undivided"

there Greg, about who Jerusalem belongs to. 'When the British abandon (Jerusalem) in 1948 it became free to claim as the Oklahoma territories were for the US settlers.' Nope. The Brits passed the Mandate back to the UN, as the League's successor, so sovereignty vested in the UN - not Israel. The UN defined Jerusalem as a corpus seperatum under international control - not Israeli 'ownership'. 'Not the Jordanians - they captured it in an OFFENSIVE war...' - and legally relinquished all claims to 'ownership' in favour of the PLO - not Israel. It's all about SOVEREIGNTY Greg. Israel CANNOT legally gain sovereignty over an inch of E J'sem or the WB without the consent of the civil power, the PA. Not by occupation, not by building or bulldozing and not by trying to rewrite history. 'The local Arabs had better get used to living under Israeli rule because `forever united` means just that'. Ah, the might-is-right jackboot bit now. Sorry, but int'l law doesn't buy that one either.

Four months ought to be enough to prove one way or another who wants peace and who does not. If the Palestinians turn down a reasonable plan at the end of 4 months things will be clear that they are implacable enemies. By the same token, if the Netanyahu government fails to come to the party then they will have proven to be enemies of the State of Israel.

It makes me very sad to meet you my dear. You make me ashamed to be Canadian like you, but then I am only a caucasian of christian background. the Palestinians were the people living there since at least the time of the Romans. They became part of the Ottoman empire since the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire in 1453. The Jordanians were part of the same empire: they did not conquer anything. Anyway what I dislike the most is that you are enjoying a comfortable life in Canada, while supporting your friends crimes.

According to any country's law, the one who show sympathy for the thief is a thief too. I am sure Obama is not going to be complicit with the mother of all crimes.

Is that why the zionists from 1947 to now have managed to gain control of the entire country? Yo should be locked up and the key thrown away!

I would really be very grateful if you would enlighten me by telling me what concessions have the zionist conquerors made to the Palestinians. Thank you sooooo much.

-"Determines that all measures taken by Israel to change the physical character, demographic composition, institutional structure of status of the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, or any part thereof, have no legal validity and that Israel's policy and practices of setting parts of its population and new Immigrants in those territories constitute a flagrant violation of the fourth Geneva convention relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war and also constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East"

Everyone knows what the government of Israel should do which is a FULL withdrawal to the June 1967 border; pure and simple. We will not accept any gimmicks or tricks using negotiations as a tool to prolong the occupation and find more excuses to avoid the final outcome. No one trust the Israelis anymore and thank heaven the US administration has finally realized what everyone else has been saying all along which is that official Israel is not interested in peace. Bibi Netanyahu and his equally deluded supporters have become prisoners to their own propaganda. They have manufactured a version of history and believed their own narrative which no one else does so its quite hard for them to accept reality.

If Netanyahu and his governement reject the U.S. demands with regard to a 4 month building freeze, Israel will be blamed by the Internatio- nal community for the unresolved conflict. If Netanyahu accepts, but then rejects during the following negotiations a fair compromise on all of the 3 core issues of the conflict, the International community will blame Israel for the unresolved conflict. The only way for Israel to escape from the "guilty stamp", would be, if the Likud party would turn its ideology uspside down.... ....unfortunately chances that this is going to happen are rather slim. Unfortunately first and upmost for the reputa- tion of Israel and the Jewish religion around the world....

state of israel" obama's exact words.read for yourself.kindly do not wilfully mislead readers.

he went to visit ghana and was no sooner there when he left.he has not visited africa since.

africa is dying of wars disease and bad government.obama cares not.

I'm not sure why the US continues with this charade. All Israeli settlements in occupied territory are a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, and successive US governments have endorsed the Israeli settler enterprise with the abuse of their security council veto, rather than implement UNSCR242, requiring Israeli withdrawal from occupied territories - in line with the Arab peace initiative.

MoL: "doesn`t exist because anybody can claim anything is "defensive." " Heck, even Germany claimed it was attacked by Poland in 1939. They even decked out some corpes in Polish army uniforms and allowed the American press to tour the "attacked" site. Look it up: the Gleiwitz incident. I'll point out that the details only came to light in the 1945 Nuremberg Trials i.e. the entire war was fought with Germany claiming it was "defending" itself against the naked aggression of the Allied Powers.

MM: "So the little devil their in the details is "massive" and you think that the US would fall for THAT one, think again." They may agree, MM, provided that Obama gets to define what "massive" means. This is all about finding a way to save Bibi's flabby arse i.e. he wants to be able to claim that this isn't a "complete freeze" even if it is. The words will allow him to give the lame excuse that, err, umm, ahhh, it only LOOKS that way because, ohh, hmm, err, he's still arguing with the Americans about just what "massive" means... The argument can run for four months, and that way Bibi can claim there was never a COMPLETE freeze even though construction was COMPLETELY frozen. This is politics, MM. You can't expect honesty..

that is what i always thought. french hill is right on the old armistice line. it will never be relinquished nor will anything be given for it. that much i am certain of.

i thought the negotiation process is between israel and the arabs?! obama, news flash: you're supposed to be a mediator, not the PA spokesman

The Israelis need to show they are serious or look for a new address or indeed a new plant. Dutch

continuation... If this is not the Obama view of the world, the administration should say so quickly and very clearly. Otherwise his administration can fairly be said to be revisiting our own "1948 issues." The argument that Israel would be a great burden and ruin our place in the Arab world was proffered then by George Marshall-and rejected by Harry Truman. In his memoirs, Clark Clifford wrote at length about the State Department's efforts to stop -Truman from recognizing the new State of Israel. Clifford quoted Marshall's deputy Robert Lovett as saying on May 14, 1948-the day Israel declared its independence and Truman offered recognition-"There will be a tremendous reaction in the Arab world. We might lose the effects of many years of hard work with the Arabs. We will lose our position with Arab leaders. It will put our diplomatic missions and consular representatives in personal jeopardy." After 60 years of American leadership and military dominance in the Middle East, it should be as disturbing to Americans-not least to Democrats who venerate -Truman-as it is to Israelis that traces of this approach are emerging again in Washington. Netanyahu answered these poor arguments in his address to AIPAC: Our soldiers and your soldiers fight against fanatic enemies that loathe our common values. In the eyes of these fanatics, we are you and you are us. To them, the only difference is that you are big and we are small, you are the Great Satan and we are the Little Satan.

... Obama's intention is an UNDIVIDED Jerusalem in the sense that it is the capital of two nations, Israel and Palestine, with free access between the two entities... ...whether joint governance is a possibilitly, has to be left for later... but equal, balanced co-operation is certainly the intent...

why do we wring our hands and insist we are unable to function if the usa turns against us.

There hasn't been any building in East Jerusalem for the last 4 months. There were only announcements. I still don't know what the American peaceplan entails. I just hope it is not like the Peace Russia made with the chechens. the day Russia withdraw its troops from there, there came the two metro bombs.

we who love israel and we who put ourselves very much second to the interests of the jewish nation have this to say. resign and hand over to moshe arens.mr arens has told us he would behave with more circumspection.he will not be pushed around by obama.

we will not tell you what to do and we expect reciprocity.we undertsand that with obama in the white house we are no longer on the same side.so be it.

he is the inheritor of the mantle of nehru nasser and soekarno.they all hated israel. he sees the world through the lens of a third world man. that is a view that is filled with hatred of israel.let us not lie to ourselves.

the latter a palestinian lecturer in the usa with whom obama has become firm friends. jeremiah wright is an infamous antisemite. farrekan needs no introduction. and obama a friend of these awful people is a friend of israel's. you would be quite insane to think so.

...and Israel suggesting it may offer to freeze 'massive' construction in East Jerusalem so it can 'appear' to be abiding by the freeze is the detail we shouldn't overlook. So, all building will continue and Israel will simply say that what's being built is not 'massive'. Job done. Crisis averted and all with the addition of one simple (though massive) word. Another term for such a proposal could be 'arrogant deceit'. Can you imagine Israel's reaction to an offer by Hamas of a freeze in violent resistance? But only of 'massive' acts of resistance?

A country functions according to national laws. The US follow their own laws and go on bombing civilians in Afghanistan and Irak even if it is against "international law". 4th Geneva Convention applies between States at war. Israel was at war with Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon. We signed peace with Jordan and Egypt after having given back 94% of the territories won in 1967. Remains peace with Syria and Lebanon. UN 242 requests Israel to give back land against peace. 94% of the land is certainly enogh according to that resolution. Israel has no obligation to give 100% of the lands....Gaza was npt wanted by Egypt and left to Israel when Peace was signed. West Bank was left to Israel by Jordan when peace was signed....There is no place for Geneva convention there anymore :-((

presidents without an anglo-saxon background.he has no sympathy whatever for israel.his attendence at a pesach seder is manipulative and a total pretence.as was his attendence at the western wall with a cap when he was running for election. "not to trust" as the famous sonnet would have it.

"i am for a united undivided jerusalem forever" obama the audience clapped and gave him a standing ovation.thunderous applause.

In that off the cuff breakdown I've learned more than what was written in the article! Love it.

I've seen that clap-trap before and never once has anybody been able to cite a provision claiming an exception for "defensive" war. It doesn't exist because anybody can claim anything is "defensive." Saddam claimed Kuwait was "defending" Iraq's "historic rights" to its province.

Don't give this evil man one inch of legitimacy.

Not the British - they gave it up Not the Jordanians - they captured it in an OFFENSIVE war and held it for 19 years Not the "Palistinians" - they have never had a country and we're about 1000 years past the era of city states. When the British abandon it in 1948 it became free to claim as the Oklahoma territories were for the US settlers. The local Arabs had better get used to living under Israeli rule because 'forever united' means just that. If Israel ever were to cede Jerusalem because some Arab had a dream that he went to heaven from there then they might as well pack their bags in Tel Aviv too. What about all you advocates of separation of religion and state? Why don't you apply that principal here? The majority of the Jerusalem's residents opt for Israeli rule. If the majority were Arab do you think we would be discussing a separate West Jerusalem?

what does restricted building in israel have to do with talking. israel is not going to be talking about jerusalem.

... fledging justice & equality are coming-to-town, even if we're not accustomed to it...

once we give them a inch it will never stop. their APPETITE WILL BECOME GREATER AND GREATER. START THEIR DIET NOW AND THEY WILL STOP. THEY WANT THE WHOLE CAKE. WHY DON'T WE GET IT?

What Obama did to Israel/Netanyahu was despicable. Let him freeze his fish instead. Or let him beat up a few Arab head honchos and maybe he can invite Hamas for tea and get them to apologize for murdering that Thai worker with a rocket attack. The U.S. is POISON for Israel with Obama puffing himself up.

The Geneva convention exlpicitly explains that any land captured in a defensive war is NOT occupied territory International law says there's no such thing as taking land by capturing it, and that Jerusalem doesn't belong to Israel no matter how many times Israel claims otherwise.

Obama is a great man, following in the footsteps of great men like Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King. Social justice, peace, and international law will prevail.

How come all right wing nutters are so poorly educated? Barak walked out from The Taba Talks, now you can either study a bit or sue your old school.

What are the palis going to do... nothing Abbas does not have the support he needs for any agreement. He cannot make concessions as he has nothing to offer, nothing to give back. peace with palis is a non starter. Building in jerusalem has always been done long before obama and long after obama. The US has not the colour of right to make such demands. So stuff Clinton and Obama and stuff pali and their dream for a state. talking about a state will be the closest they will ever get to one. Unless the palis get off the stick and on the ball which is to say the least near impossible for them. Ten years from now they will still whine about going to any talks

So the little devil their in the details is "massive" and you think that the US would fall for THAT one, think again.

would lead to another and before you know it half of Jerusalem is another Gaza. This must never be permitted to happen. All out war will happen first and Hell will freeze over. Let's hope Bibi continues to grow more backbone. Two and 1/2 years and Obama will be just about history and bad history at that. He is a ruinous President and probably will be judged at the worst President of the 20th or 21st century.

The settler trash will riot? Also, when is Lieberman's trial? That criminal must be locked away.

Stop building in Jerusalem for 4 or six months is fair enough if that leads to engage the palestinians to direct talks. If that implies the fall of Israel's right wing government the better. All other governments built in Jerusalem without any problem. The relevant point is that the next step will be American pressure on Palestinians. All at all, the American map of end of conflict is known to everyone. It is not DIFFERENT FROM THE ONE PRESENTED IN TABA AND REJECTED BY THE PALESTINIANS. It is not quite different from the one offered by Ulmart ignored by Abbas. The pals will never accept. It will be a great tactical move of Nataniahu if he let the palestinians blow the whole issue. This might be the purpose of direct talks.

As far as high pretensions go, if you think you are in a position to tell Obama (for which read the US) what to do, your grasp on high pretensions is superlative.

'Stop building in DC, and we can talk.' I'm speaking purely for myself of course, but we definitely have a deal!

For Bibi to initiate any kind of freeze in Jerusalem would set the precedent that Israel is less than a sovereign state, and that foreigners can dictate to it what it can do in its own capital. Israel doesn't need to pay a price to get the Arabs to the negotiating table. Israel doesn't need negotiations any more than the Arabs do. In fact, Israel would be better off without negotiations, because every time it goes into negotiations, it ends up worse off than before.

these terrorist arabs will not accept.they want all of my home. they come form jordan and should just go home. we offered 97 percent of the west bank with land swaps and they said "NO!!!" they do not want peace. PERIOD

we agreed in 1947 to the partition of two states, Israel and Palestine, with PM David Ben Gurion's bold decision? Unfortunately the Arab side did not want to relinquish any land Arab inhabitants occupied to the Jewish nation. Accepting the partition of 1947 was a fundamental principle within the Israeli government at the time before the Israeli declaration of independence in 1948 which occurred subsequently. Today, we are speaking of the 1967 boundaries and a recess of construction within the areas of Jerusalem to resolve the proclamation made in 1947 to the formation of two states alongside one another. What government really has the business to reject on behalf of the Jewish nation an offer to resort to direct talks? One can only think that a government with individuals not really wishing to bring about a peaceful settlement to reject the current U.S. administration offer.

I have the perfect solution. Don't talk and Don't Freeze, Freezing is only a tactic to make us stop altogether.

Don't get me wrong, Bibi is a nice civilized fellow and I'm sure he would be happy to have a chat with Mr. Abbas just out of politeness, even though Abbas is last year's news and has no credibility nor any ability to make a deal. There may be a political advantage to negotiate with with someone like Abbas who has no authority to say yes, and is only allowed to say "More" to any concession, but it can't lead to an agreement. So not only are the talks designed so that only Israel can make concessions, but Bibi is supposed to make concessions just to get the chance to make concessions??? Yeah, right!

The CIA released a report about 6 months ago saying israel wouldn't last more than from 20 to 50 years tops. The technological age just started. Any forward thinker can see that israel is sealing it's own fate. They wont be able to stop what will happen in their future if they dont make changes fast. With the technology age and the enemy's they have They are DOOMED

Article 49 of the fourth Geneva Convention specifically states that a country may not transfer parts of its own civilian population into occupied territory (Art.49). The entire international community considers E. Jerusalem and the West Bank as occupied territory. To further bolster this argument read binding UNSC resolution 465 which specifically mentions E. Jerusalem as part of the occupied Palestinian territories and states that the settlements that Israel has built have no legal validity. Get your facts straight Jack and stop trying to dream up fantasies or play word games.

CJK: "If Abbas wants a state, which he is unlikely to want, he will start direct negotiations pronto. If Abbas does not start direct negotiations, then he obviously does not want a state." If he wants a state then the last thing he wants is to enter into negotiations that are designed to stymie that objective. Netanyahu's insistence is that Abbas MUST enter into direct negotiations even as Israel is allowed to continue settlement construction. Think about that, Cipora, and consider how those "Bibi Rules" determine the only sensible strategy for Israel to take. It is this: to drag the talks out INDEFINITELY, because the longer Israel can do that then the more land Israel will eventually swallow up. There is, logically, no point in Abbas giving political cover for that land-grab, and so there is no incentive - absolutely NONE - for him to agree to direct negotiations under those Bibi Rules. All it would do is make it easier for Bibi to steal that territory from him.

I never knew that nice people can be idiots. What are you talking about?

pollard will never get out of jail and shalit has nothing to do with these negociations...but...you are moving so get an early start

Freeze building in French Hill and all will be well. Does Obama intend to remove the professors of the Hebrew University from their homes? Does Obama know where French Hill is? If Abbas wants a state, which he is unlikely to want, he will start direct negotiations pronto. If Abbas does not start direct negotiations, then he obviously does not want a state. The less the Obama administration makes public pronouncements, the better for all concerned.

The Geneva convention exlpicitly explains that any land captured in a defensive war is NOT occupied territory. Arabs can only win when they lie and invent new facts

'Muslim-Arab Colonialists want to reclaim Jerusalem They put those mosques on the Temple Mount for a reason. They claim Dawud and Suleiman as their own too. They claim JC, and Moses. Gotta love the Muslim history revisionists. They must really think we`re stupid.' Given that exposition, one would have to wonder how they got that idea. Well, maybe willfully ignorant would be a fairer description.

But you have a cardinal error there - why do you not also label Lieberman as 'a political idiot'? While maybe not as completely nutty-nationalist-Jewish supremacist as Yishaii, he is still rather in a league of his own for his racist, anti-Arab, bull-in-a-china shop approach to wrecking Israel's standing on the world stage. Strictly speaking, all five uber-righties, including principal Metanyahoo, are a good couple of sandwiches short of a picnic.

and get off your butt and get a job

No doubt shaykhah obuma will make concessions to ISRAEL on behalf of both the yankies & terrorist prior to any talks being J.Pollard & Sgt G Shalit will sitting in on the negiations....DK

They put those mosques on the Temple Mount for a reason. They claim Dawud and Suleiman as their own too. They claim JC, and Moses. Gotta love the Muslim history revisionists. They must really think we`re stupid.

...it merely has to be effective. After all, Abbas' objection to construction is that it changes the "facts on the ground" even as the two parties negotiate over the fate of that ground. A construction freeze - even if unannounced - removes that objection, and if Abbas does NOT find that sufficient then his intent was always to humiliate Netanyahu, and nothing more. But if the freeze is to be "unannounced" then it must also be "verifiable", and this statement: Haaretz: "no massive construction in East Jerusalem neighborhoods would be planned or carried out" does not give much hope on that score. After all, at what point would Israel cross a red line from "miniscule" into "massive"? Who gets to make that judgement call? Bibi, perhaps? Yishai, maybe? Barak, perchance?

for explaining reality for me...was never explained like that to me before :) are you rapture ready? :)

..."Logios" and "Mary." With so much that makes me want to cry, it's a blessing when folks with a good sense of humor make me laugh.

Give Netanyahu four months and that ensures that building will double in four months. Israel - Neatnyahu - destroyed Oslo by refusing to engage in Final Status talks until only the most feeble minded thought they ever might happen. What succeeded for Netanyahu and Israel almost 20 years ago will be what they believe will work today. Israel will ONLY move toward peace if Israel has NO recourse but to draw behind the Green Line (Old CIty of Jerusalem excepted). As long as there IS ANY HOPE that Israel can annex territory then it will NEVER engage in serious peace talks. Israel will never pursue peace until nothing but peace will leave it anything outside the Green Line. I think Israel would settle for the Old City. If it would not, then it will settle for nothing less than everything.

If they are truly peacefull and want peace, then they will not throw stones and start riots against the Government of Israel everytime Israel digs in its own back yard for ancient Israel artifacts which are mentioned in the genuine biblical history books. In later writtings history has been altered to serve the needs and beliefs of those who serve a false god. You can bet your life, this is not about religion, this is about reality, this is about the real God.

Oh no, Israel is so scared of Obama and his 51% approval rating. Obama has bigger problems than Israel, like not losing control of the House and Senate this Nov. Don't worry about Israel, it'll be just fine with or without Obama's approval.

If Bibi accepts this, he is a fool.Obama is creating pre-conditions for direct talks between Israel and the PA, so that Israel will have to make MORE concessions later on? What about palestinian concessions? If Obama expects only Israel to make concessions, Bibi should tell him to F*** himself.Jewish neighborhoods in Jerusalem, such as Pisgat Zeev, where I live, will NEVER be ceded to the pals.We know it and they know it.COnsequently, there's no reason to stop ANY construction there.

work in a sewer?

Logios,its very funny, you couldn't put any better you hit right on the nail funny, it's a nice plot for a movie

Israel has an obligation under the Fourth Geneva Convention to STOP all illegal settlements. The ones already there are illegal. This is not a concession, this is an obligations!

Time will always be against evil terrorist, but it will be on the side of decent people. It will be impossible for the terrorist to control themselves. Sooner or later they will be back to their old tricks, sending Rockets, Suicide bombers, or Mortar shells into Israel as usual, as theyve always done in the past. They have always claimed that they just wanted more land all along, but history has shown that they have a much different desire, and that is to kill or murder all the Israelis, and to take over all their land.

"Put it where the sun don`t shine Obama" I guess you don't need to worry, being far away in Montreal. But if Bibi and Co don't start paying attention, all of Israel will end up where the sun don't shine.

Sound familiar? Pay the price and maybe Obama will invite Bibi to dinner and release the bunker busters that have been put on hold ever since you insulted our VP and our nation.

No to more concessions. What have the other one sided concessions gotten for Israel NADA, Plus a freeze will set a PRECEDENT. http://ralphsrant1.blogspot.com

I can go four months between haircuts. I once went for months without scrubbing the inside of my microwave. I can wait four months before I have to pour another quart of oil in my car. I can go a whole nine months before I have to defrag my hard drive. Four months without housing construction in East Jerusalem? Fine and dandy!

Stop building in DC, and we can talk.

The Inner Cabinet of Netanyahu consists of seven top ministers. Let us listen to their advice concerning the present crisis with the US. 1. A. LIEBERMAN (the Foreign Minister): If that Moslem Obama doesn't like what we are doing in Jerusalem, let's send him to hell. We should change our allegiance to Russia. Russians despise Muslims, especially Chechens, and we will get from Russia all the help we need. They understand power politics. 2. E. BARAK (Defense Minister from Labor): No way; our relationship with the US is the alpha and omega of our security. The US has far better military equipment, and even at time of disagreement with the US Administration, the Congress is still in our pocket. I suggest we contact Bill Clinton and get him to work on Obama to adopt the Clinton parameters rfor peace. We will get sovereignty underground over the "Holy of Holies". What else do we really need? 3. M. YAALON (Minister for Strategic Threats / Iran, former Chief of Staff, and a political idiot): Let's bomb Iran. The Iranians will organize terrorist attacks against the US in Iraq and Afghanistan and the Arabs idiots will support them. The US will have no friend here but Israel. 4. D. MERIDOR (Minister for Secret Services, moderate Likud): And why should the US turn to us? How could we help them in Iraq and Afghanistan? No, I think we should announce that we will not build in Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem. Essentially, this is the same freeze policy we announced in the West Bank and it was acceptable. 5. B. BEGIN (Minister without portfolio, Chief Likud Ideologue, and a political idiot): No way, Dan. What could be done before cannot be done now when it had become a question of principle. My father z"l never agreed to change his principles. If I forget thee, Oh Jerusalem, let my right hand be forgotten. 6. E. YISHAI (Interior Minister from Shas); Bibi, there is nothing to worry about. I can bring you a guarantee from Rabbi Ovadiah that if you check your Mezuzas before Pesach, nothing bad will happen to Israel during your term. 7. B. NETANYAHU (Prime Minister): I am looking for a consensus among us. Let Dan (Meridor) and Benny (Begin) try to come to an agreement on a joint position and we will discuss it again next week. Just to be on the safe side, please everybody, please check your Mezuzas before the holiday. Happy Yom-Tov to all.