U.K., France want Israel, PA to probe Goldstone war crimes claims

by selecting people whose prejudices would have disqualified them under any democratic legal principles.

Hamas said yes, Israel no

As what most countries understand is that the rules of war, as currently written, are not enforcable. They were written for another time, for a different kind of war then is waged today. They couldn't adhere to this standard either, and in fact no other country is expected to, and they just want it to go away

Who said they are afraid? If they aren't, wouldn't the best plan be to cooperate with the UN organ, even if it is disproportionate, to show how some propaganda anti Israel isn't true. This would help build up Israel's image (if the charges are refutable).

For their history of colonization does not make it a surprise that they would try to impede the resolution. That sad part is that the PA would not hesitate to support that firing rockets into civilian areas is a crime as a result of their adversarial relationship with Hamas. Israel no matter what can never admit it was wrong, that it violated the cease fire with Hamas in November 2008 when there was calm, etc. The Brits are 2 faced as well. They call the settlements illegal, etc yet they can't find the courage to admit what the IDF did in Gaza was with full intent and knowledge in destroying the civilian infrastructure? How pathetic.

"Why are Israel`s leaders afraid of an open and through investigation?" Who said they are afraid? The better question is, why should they cooperate with a UN organ which focuses on Israel with heavy disproportion?

are at it, these sanctimonious paragons of virtuous morality can investigate all the allied US/French/British/German..etc war crimes of civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq? What's good for the goose is good for the gander - No?

"Sometimes if one is handed a lemon, it`s a good idea to make lemonade." Is lemonade Kosher in Israel???

An impartial and independent investigation by an eminent retired judge is all anyone has ever asked for.

"they [Israel] need to pretty quickly agree to do the right thing, as specified by Goldstone. And many of us are waiting and hoping Israel will do the right thing! Defensive attempts to wiggel out of this will do Israel no good; but seeing it through may just prove to be for the good of Israel and mark the end of this matter

"Israel would be both operatively and morally crazy not to accept this British-French proposal. True! But she will not accept it, anyway. The idea originated from outside Israel. Therefore it is unacceptable.

Neither are great friends of Israel....But, they know hamas and the rest of the arab world will not undertake any responsibility for their terror or rockets. So what is the point of dragging a report that is very seriously flawed to the Security Counsel? Even Goldstone lamented that only Israel was singled out...I don't know what he expected. The Goldstone report what has received very little press in America and the west will become a rallying cry in the Arab world.

From the start the correct path would have been for Israel to appoint a judicial commission. That is still the only realistic option. The problem is that Hamas has no independent judiciary capable of probing the allegations against Hamas.

France and the UK are begging Israel to investigate. They would rather not have to accept Goldstone as the final word. Israel refuses to engage in an open and through investigation. Why are Israel's leaders afraid of an open and through investigation? If they have nothing to hide it could only help.

US,russia , china did not let UN to investigate in Iraq , chehna Ouighur provence!!! Israel is harvesting the consequences of it naivety approach of UN commission of investigation!!!

I don't quite understand. If you feel the other side is getting unfair privilege, why not have both sides hold impartial hearings (unless you are afraid of what an impartial hearing might bring out)?

Maybe they are hinting at lending their support to the report being refered to the UNGA or even the UNSC unless Israel uses its "get out of prison" card. The US wouldn't like to use its Veto Power, but it will have to if it reaches the UNSC. After Clinton's gaffe, regarding Israel's ongoing illegal settlement constructions, it wouldn't look good. France and Britan wont, that's what they just said, in so many words.

its last games - of course it is still relevant...

Read article 17 - the ICC lacks jurisdiction if the country investigates itself. Sometimes if one is handed a lemon, it's a good idea to make lemonade.

Actually the then President Eisenhower flexed his muscles and forced France and the United Kingdom to withdraw from this particular military adventure, and incidentally signalled the end of the United Kingdom as a world power. Suggest you read some books on the subject.

Only a Chapter VII resolution of the UNSC can enliven the ICC's jurisdiction in this case. All Israel has to do is get an eminent retired judge to conduct an impartial and independent investigation. A handful of low-level charges may result. This would be more than outweighed by the rubbishing the Goldstone report would suffer in a real investigation. And the whole matter would then be rendered inadmissible in the ICC under Article 17 of its Statute, something the US could comfortably enforce by exercise of the veto if the matter ever makes it to the UNSC.

... sub-terranian floors (which is bad enough), but it did not willfully "deny civilians and wounded combatants access to hospitals." ... the latter contention is mere 'embellishment'...

Independent investigation,and then what?. Would the resolts be accepted?would they be trusted?.The UK france and others are doing Israel no favour,they are protecting themselves. They are not interested in a precedence of war crimes against their troops and politicians.

The West is trying to appease the Arabs with reviews while refusing to abandon Israel as the Arabs wish.

The important thing is that the Goldstone report won't pass through the Security Council. The rest is superficial, and will be sent to garbage of history. It is really funny, a bunch of criminal countries such as Russia China, Iran,Lybia, etc. insinuating that Israel should check itself. Laughable.

"gaza hospitals turned into battlefields,"(guardian 13 june, 2007) gaza hospitals were turned into battlefield for armed gangs fighting for control of gaza. there is a pattern of behaviour on the part of gaza terrorists to use hospitals as military centers from which to fight opponents while at the same time denying civilians and wounded combatants access to hospitals. anyone living in israel would know this.

Reminds of 1956 when the British betrayed Israel after Israel did their dirty work for them and took the Suez canal. Once again Israel does the UK and France's fighting and they stab Israel in the back (again).

i always check my facts. haaretz reported 12/1/2009 that seniour hamas leadership was hiding and operating from the basement of al-shifa hospital. other major israeli papers reported same.

Some people seem to be missing what's happening here. The EU is not proposing to form a human shield at the UN to protect Israel. The UK-French proposal is that Israel and Hamas must undertake to hold genuine INDEPENDENT JUDICIAL inquiries if they want the EU's help in stopping Wednesday's UNGA motion going to the Security Council. That is exactly what Goldstone proposed: first the judicial inquiries on both sides, then a decision what to do about any war crimes revealed. Hamas has already paid lip service to holding such an inquiry, Israel has tried to wiggle round it by having an internal political review. NEITHER will get away with a cosmetic whitewash here. If they want the support of the West, they need to pretty quickly agree to do the right thing, as specified by Goldstone.

The Canadian Liberal party goes out of its way to pander to Arab countries at the UN but it supports Israel no less than Prime Minister Harper and the Conservatives. Your biases are so great that you can't see reality.

A Conservative idiot from Calgary who is a MINORITY PM? everybody knows he is a brainless idiot...except you?. and what can he do for the zionists?

Al Suffa hospital? Is that what your hasbara prompt sent you? Better ask them to check back and correct. Better still, check your facts yourself rather than posting twaddle.

Just can't imagine that Hamas will admit they used human shields or shot from schools etc. I think England and France should take care of their own investigations not tell others what to do.

Canada like other Western countries wants a 2 state solution. It wants a Jewish state and a Palestinian state. it will not abandon Israel despite ignoramuses like you.

....has exactly five letters: A.I.P.A.C. And it makes all the difference between political conscience and political corruption...

I am not Arab nor Muslim, just a person who is outraged by some people who enjoy living in Canada and contributing to zionists' crimes. Why don't your read newspapers,watch TV and find out what is happening. NOBODY in the "west" is on your side.

Goldstone was very clear in his report: Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians are war crimes. This means that the Pals have been carrying out war crimes for decades. Yet almost all talkbackers are ignoring this fact and want to put only Israel on trial. If we Zionists control the media, then why is it that the Palestinians keep carrying out war crimes by shooting at us and killing us, and nobody lifts a finger to stop them? It's the Pals who control the media, and it's the dictators who have taken over the UN and human rights, so they can cover up their own crimes by making sure everybody only looks at Israel. Shame on the two-faced people out there.

"Pathetic, hypocrates. Let the murderers pay for their crimes. There is no reason to protect the guilty." (Bazman) There are lots and lots of more murderers among Muslims! Every day, for ages, another terror suicide occurs in the world. The dead count is incredible. 30, 65, 130, ... dayly... All of them done by Muslims. The great majority, against other Muslims. All victims are innocent civilians: several hundreds Jewish civilians in Israel, but tens of thousands in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Indonesia, Philippines, London, Spain, New York, Algeria, ...I got to stop somewhere.

hospitals are civilian in nature regardless of who is treated there. even a military hospital is arguably a civil hopital since the patients treated are hors combat. a hospital loses its civilian status if it is turned into a military site. al suffa hospital, for example, was turned into the operations center of hamas al qassam brigades and terror leadership. other hospitals were used to hide terrorists which then fired on the idf from the close proximity of the hospital. it is the use of the hospital for active military purposes which renders the hospital part of the military complex.

A billion and a half Muslims can't defeat 6 million Israelis so they go crying to the West to do it for them. The Arabs aren't looking for peace. They are trying to manipulate the West into sanctioning and boycotting Israel.The west has had its own fill in dealing with Muslims and while Obama tries to suck up to them to stop their random violence, he and the West will not abandon Israel.

I agree with you in a way Alan, but why not extend the investigation to cover all the YEARS of war crimes and crimes against humanity that have occured during this conflict.

That would be the ideal outcome.

And these apply the Human Rights to the letter, of course, we all know that: no one is to blame in the non-aligned (AKA aligned on soviet russia) countries and everyone should be friend with them because they kill their own people! Hurray and long life dictators! Yes, "what a joke" indeed! And furthermore, precisely the EU dmeocracies are defending Israel against these aberrations! And the aberration is the Goldstone report, as there are no Israeli war crimes at all (they've all been explained in a newspaper that quoted all sorts of officials, events and great US journalists). Meanwhile, Hamas is to blame for everything: the blocade, the counter-attack they made us do, etc. and all of this with our own money! Speaking about inequality and double-standards, it's amazing how the Arab countries get away with no resolution while they murder the entier opposition in their countries, blaming it all on Israel. It rather sounds like they preside the UN... don't they?

why many in the moslem world are angry with the west..

What specifically do you, or the Israelis, propose as a change to the rules as set forth in the Geneva conventions? I've heard about proposals being made but have yet to see one that didn't rebound on the government making the proposal. What's the dividing line between a terrorist and a revolutionary hero? Israel treats its wounded soldiers in civilian hospitals. How do you treat Israeli and Palestinian hospitals differently, legally?

... not to accept this British-French proposal... ... in any case, it is almost beyond high-time for Israel to carry out a genuine open-minded investigation... ... without that, we will remain culprits forever...

If Obama vetoes the Goldstone report inquiry then the mask comes off and it becomes clear that he doesn't stand for the truth.

A pox on all their houses!

...and that's all many of us peace supporters want. Israel to mount an investigation and take responsibility. Hamas and other militant groups already started this process when cooperating with the Goldstone mission in the first place even as Israel refused to do so. They agreed some days ago to mount their own investigation. It is time for Bibi to pony up the gumption to order a fully independent body that can make an impartial judgment the world will take seriously to bring to justice any possible Israeli human rights violators.

Carla Bruni, a Jewess, was carefully inserted by the AIPAC in front of Sarkozy early in 2008 to secure French President whose own connection to Judaism was deemed too weak by the AIPAC senior analysts handling this sensitive matter. Obama, on the other hand, became totally ensnared by the AIPAC when he naively agreed to hold Passover Seder at the White House last spring. Both Axelrod and Emmanuel were seen patting each other on the shoulder celebrating the occasion. Anti-Semites of the world: UNITE !

We have seen this bad movie before and likely to see it again. Israel will get Uncle Sam and the EU cavalry to come to the rescue once again. There is a reason why this conflict has gone past 60 years and it's because of actions such as this. If Israel had been convicted decades ago of it's first war crimes - the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians for starters back in 1948, we wouldn't be having this debate with this recidivist client state. Instead, the problem child state is at again crying to mommy and daddy to rescue it one more time from it's misdeeds. Nothing will change and that's because nothing has changed. Settlement expansion and occupation continues because Israel relies on friends like USA,UK, and now Sarkozki France to keep the charade going - war crimes galore by Israel for decades - but of course EU and American concern now is to make sure Goldstone report never sees the light of day. Need I say more?

We have seen this bad movie before and likely to see it again. Israel will get Uncle Sam and the EU cavalry to come to the rescue once again. There is a reason why this conflict has gone past 60 years and it's because of actions such as this. If Israel had been convicted decades ago of it's first war crimes - the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians for starters back in 1948, we wouldn't be having this debate with this recidivist client state. Instead, the problem child state is at again crying to mommy and daddy to rescue it one more time from it's misdeeds. Nothing will change and that's because nothing has changed. Settlement expansion and occupation continues because Israel relies on friends like USA,UK, and now Sarkozki France to keep the charade going - war crimes galore by Israel for decades - but of course EU and American concern now is to make sure Goldstone report never sees the light of day. Need I say more?

Of what is Israel afraid? The truth about Gaza? Of course it is. But not being able to refute the poison in the Goldstone report, it does what it does best Lie, cheat, obfuscate and threaten and get its way. The world must stiffen up and sanction Israel. The Zionist project is on the verge of bringing the world to war, and the world continues to pander.

This is unbelivable what Israel gets away with, the west has never and will never be friends with the Muslim world, as long as it continues it's blatant support for the state (Israel) which constantly breaks all the rules.

This clearly shows the inequality of the UN. It is about time that the UN is abolished as it does not stand for a just system. All of the western countries which are funded and controlled by the Zionist lobby are afraid to act to condemn Israeli war crimes. It is a matter of time before the population demographic changes and we will remember this events.

Pathetic, hypocrates. Let the murderers pay for their crimes. There is no reason to protect the guilty.

Looks like an attempt to obstruct justice to me; I wonder what their position would be had this been any other country like say Iran.

...in terrorist asymetric warfare.Where uniforms are not worn and civilians on opposing side are attacked by so called "fighters" operating out of their own civilian population centres. Also where no action is taken for YEARS and after thousands of Rockets are fired by these so called "fighters"