Turkey: World blamed Islam as Israel bombed Gaza

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Turkey. In comparison to.... When Israel says that it's one of the most moral armies. She doesn't want to continuously repeating it like Cato the Elder: the crimes of the nations.She thinks,it's there for all to see. But Alas! They have another agenda. Truth & honesty plays no part in it at all. She has in the back of her head the behaviour of: Turkey,Re. Arminia, Afghanistan. Iraq, Pakistan, Sudan, The USA, Russia, China. Germany, Belgium. (Free Congo State under king Leopold) ETC. ETC. ETC. Tens of millions,all killed,massacred,butchered. Raped,& Looted. What are you silly people talking about ? Maybe,you want Israel to be like you ?? (3rd.atmt.)

The Turkish army has crossed into Iraqi Kurdistan numerous times in the past fifteen years, most recently in February 2008. Kurdish deaths in this span are estimated at 37,000. Operation Hammer, 1995. Operation Steel, 1997. Operation Sun, February 2008. Google any of these ops, and compare them with Cast Lead. What's the main difference between Operation Sun, Operation Hammer, et al. -- and Cast Lead? Israel had no involvement. And Israel was considerably kinder. So the world media -- and the Arab critics of Israel, who steer it -- paid these no attention. Of the world's 2,000 or so professional foreign correspondents, about a thousand are in Israel at any given time. Given its actions against the PKK, Ankara's comments do appear starkly hypocritical. The problem of asymmetric warfare has not been solved by anyone in this era.

You wrote: "...why don't you read Aaron Miller's view...." Why don't YOU read it? Miller writes: "Bold, brave, and reckless, Barak wanted an end to conflict and all claims with Palestinians...This urgency caused Barak's redlines to turn pink time and again, signaling a weak and wily Arafat he could get more from the Israelis simply by holding out for more" (Miller, Much Too Promised Land, 2009, p. 297). Arafat came "neither to make sweeping concessions nor to negotiate in any meaningful sense of the word...Arafat came to Camp David with no real strategy, little flexibility...." (ibid.).

that we have a different set of problems and the smaller margin of error can have dire consequences for Israel. I was talking in generalities and not specifics. Regards, Eli

Turkey & Human Rights, The nations that uphold Human Rights: Turkey,massacred 1 i/2 million Arminians. Sudan,murdered & raped ,(for good measure) in Darfur; ! million. The Rape with the connivance of UN soldiers,who also took part ! Iraq: Sunni Arabs against Sheiit Arabs;over 200,000. Iraq against the Kurds. Besides gassing them & razing their villages tp the ground,the Iraqis killed over 159,000. Egypt against Yemmen:Gassed them & killed uncounted thousands, Ask the Egyptians.(Till the start of the 6-Day War !) Remember the Six-Day War ? Syria: Papa Assad murdered,killed & destroyed all those who didn't approve of his brutal regime. Enough,for now ! The Arab streets are flowing with Arab blood,by the Arabs,for the Arabs ! One can fill a whole volume of Arab/Turkish Atrocities !

In my country Barak Obama has been elected with the votes not only of African Americans but also white latino Asian Jewish etc. In Israel Israeli Arabs are represented in the Knesset and an Arab was PM (Or was it president I am not sure) for a week.

The Israeli leadership is always shifting the blame to the Islamic world when its the Zion- ist extremists and their apologists in the West who are to blame. But have no fear people have their number now and are turning away from Israel is disgust. I can't see how Israelis expect to survive in the 21st century based on the status quo. They will be abandoned....I see it already. Dutch

Israelis under international law have right to exceed their borders (as they did in 1948 and 1967) and populate Palestinian land with peo-ple from other lands and call them "Israeli citizens" They are no more "Israeli citizens" on Palestin- ian land than I am. Thus Israeli rights often represents a complete falsehood and reflect no moral or legal measurement. Dutch

Israel removed with force thousands of Israeli from gaza for 'peace'. Then gazans sent over daily missiles into Israel for endless days of fear and terror into civilian areas in Israel. Captured a soldier on Israeli soil killed the other kids with him and continued to make absolutely no effort to have a peaceful border with Israel which is their promise for moving all the Israelis out of gaza. Taunting and threatening to obliterated Israel refusing to accept Israels right to exist, also part of the agreement to moving Israelis out of gaza. Carefully warning gazans that israel is going to attack after many years of taunting by gazans, warning people to move out of the firing zones which were carefully chosen as Israel was aware of where the danger was coming from in gaza. Gazans/Hamas know very well that they are guilty of war crimes and should apologise to their people and Israel and muslims the world over for their stupidity.

Chafrles, reconsider your comment. You write that Turkey does not use common sense; I understand you to mean that in not using common sense, Turkey is mistaken. You then suggest that since Turkey makes that mistake, Israel should also make the same mistake. Please, where is your common sense?

from the comfort of his chair. He denies rocket salvos Hamas launched on the eve of Christmas 2008 and the world is silent. I think Israel has only one alternate route, launch broad inquiry into events precipitated crisis of the war that spanned New Year or 2009 to counter Goldstone's report to disbar the lackey and to stand her ground. It would probably be ideal, but hardly realistic to find an qualified Arab Muslim man for the job? It would be extremily dangerous game howere and chances if such a man comes along, he will be slaughtered by same criminals who killed Daniel Perle.

Turkey should accept its responsibility in the Armenian Massacre. No two ways around it. I believe Israel is more furious over the water issue with Turkey as it gets tons of water from Turkey. Obviously this is always on the hidden agenda for Israel, it's water issue. Thus the reason it seeks to occupy the West Bank because the majority of the water aquifers in Israel and Palestine are in the WEST BANK.

First off, the Clinton Cabinet had the most JEws in it, including the likes of Dennis Ross. In fact if you want to use Jewish cabinet members or advisors, why don't you read Aaron Miller's view (An American Jew who was Clinton's advisor in Mideast Affairs and involved in Camp David) of the negotiations where he indicated that Barak did not offer a "generous offer". Israel's final proposal was to control Palestinian borders and airspace, annex the Jordan Valley thus creating cantons in the WEst Bank, no connection to Gaza, no East Jerusalem as a capital, only Abu Diss which is a suburb of Jerusalem, and annexing 9 percent of the west bank, while offering 3 percent in Israel's non-fertile Negev lands. Give me a break.

"I am glad that in my country a man from modest family with diverse ethnic background can become the president while in Turkey there has never been a none Muslim president or PM and there will never be." When was the last time Israel had a non-Jew elected to the position of President or Prime Minister?

Asking colonist Zionist Israel to use common sense or to eliminate its inherent racism or have a teeny-weeny bit of compassion for non-Jews is like water off duck's back! It won't learn or understand anything but will definitely mock you for having the good will to advise! Israel has the 'exclusive righ to self-defense' by killing civilians esp women and kids, by throwing leaflets asking people in a prison to flee, by demolishing farms and houses, by denying 'harmful' things like pasta, notebooks, pencils, toys, etc into the large cage it has illegally created,......., all while blaming its victims for its own inhumane actions!

it is clear that Israel is losing all of its friends. Many of us in the US who have in the past been very supportive of Israel's struggles have now developed a different attitude. This has nothing to do with Obama, though we applaud his efforts and his demand to stop settlements. And it has nothing to do with anti-semitism. It has to do with the continuing arrogance, hubris, delays, obfuscations and lies of Israel, and its refusal to end the occupation and retire to the Green Line.

The Israeli brutal war on the innocent people of Gaza is turning ALL Muslims moderate into extremists. This is only logical! you can't just go ahead and kill innocents Muslims children,women,and elderly with all sort of phosphorus and weapons of mass destruction and expect moderate Muslims to applaud your crimes. Even Turkey, which is supposed to be the most moderate of all Muslim countries is turning against your terrorist state of Israel. Comprende? Joe.

No one in this era has figured out the answer. Fifty years ago, France destroyed civilian targets in Algeria in punishment for FLN attacks. Even in the "good war," WWII, the Allies, the "good guys," made considerable war on enemy civilians, not only with violence. Even in the American Civil War, the tide really turned after Sherman burned Atlanta. Wars end when one side is discouraged from continuing. But today, how to do this--politely? Fallujah? Goo-goos like Goldstone are oblivious to military history and goals. Turkey did worse in Cyprus. But the Greeks aren't Muslims. BTW, phosphorus shells are meant to burst overhead. What's in question is when they're aimed at people. And even this, tho gruesome, is legal. No evidence IDF aimed such at civilians systematically. Certainly illumination rounds bursting in the air aren't at issue. H and H are clever, and try to put IDF in a cleft stick. Using UN and Goldstone is part of their military strategy.

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I assume that you would then be fine, after the Turks have finished killing a few dozen Hamas 'men', they then carried on into Israel and killed all the IDF 'men' who used Palestinians to protect there body armour from Hamas bullets, and all the IDF 'men' who figured Gaza children made good targets for bullets and bombs, then pulled the glass from some Israeli buildings, the water and sewage pipes from Israeli soil, the supplies from Israeli schools and hospitals, and the food from Israeli homes, and gave it all to the children of Gaza as they left. After all, that would do a lot to protect Gazan children, and give them a better life.

They will do that when Turkey admits it committed genocide against the Armenians. LOL

PF: "The Islamic and Arab block fundamentally make the 'legal case' that given its fundamental and non-erasable sins Israel has no right to self-defense and it`s enemies may attack it without suffering consequences or retaliation." When, exactly? All I see are claims that crying out "self-defense!!!!" does not give Israel a blank cheque to go ape-shit on a helpless and trapped civilian population. And when Israel does scream "self-defense!" before going ape-shit on a helpless and trapped civilian population then that is a crime. A war crime. Argue against THAT claim, Paul, and you'll actually be arguing to the point. Because all you are doing now is tearing down your own straw man.

Dear ,asuch fairy tails you can talk to little children,Be well.

Holland does not have the problems Israel faces. We do not have hostile neighbours, a people we must oppress and who also claim the land, militia's (Hezbullies) at our borders, a big regional country threatening us (Iran), etc. Most or all countries do not have these problems so urgent as Israel, since war and violence can always break out any minute in the ME. Mark is just pointing out this fact. Maybe we do govern ourselves not better then Israel does, but the consequences of our wrong decisions are minor compared to the consequences wrong decisions by the Israeli leaders can have for Israel. I do think Mark is right, pragmatism is what Israel (and all other countries) needs, not ideological stiffness and inflexibility. That's what the Dutch once learned from the Spanish and Portugese Jews who fled to Amsterdam and helped us transform ourselves into a flourishing trade nation with contacts and open doors all over the world.

Gina, why the thirst for blood? The flipside to your argument is this : we could say that if Turkey really cared about the Gazan children then they would set up a defence force and anti aircraft batteries shooting anything that croses into Gazan airspace. At least, then, any intruders would know what they would be expecting if they trespassed. There is then no bloodshed.

"Israel does not need true believers, it needs pragmatists. Pragmatism was once Israel`s great strength." (Lincoln) The lost "pragmatism" to which you refer was Israel's willigness to neutralize its attackers with overwhelming, unrelenting, military might delivered in very short periods. Unfortunately, Israel has, to a large degree, contracted the same 'disease' that the U.S. has suffered since the end of W.W.II. For a variety of reasons, Israel, like the U.S. and Europe, has lost its willingness to win a war/battle. Doing so is politically incorrect. If someone wins and someone loses, the world just doesn't see that as "right" anymore. Just look at the way the U.S. fought Korean and Vietnam "wars", as well as the way we're fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, and (even) you would have to admit that "pragmatism" died in W.W.II. The "disease" is called Liberalism, and it is an incurable mental disorder. Those infected lose the ability to differentiate good v. evil and right v. wrong.

The Turkish leaders have been publicly insulting Israeli leaders, attacking Israeli female athletes, and fanning Antisemitic feelings in Turkey while publicly calling for Israelis to exercise "common sense".

If Erdogan's ravings were caused by his "bleeding heart" then why are Turks welcoming the butcher of Sudan, al-Bashir in Istanbul? There are more dead children in one day in Sudan than in 10 years of Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The hypocrisy is so thick, one can cut it with a knife.

On the one hand you correctly say Hamas was also condemned for war crimes and then you excuse it because of "conditions brought about by Israel". So war crimes are therefore mitigated and are no longer war crimes because now it's really resistance. You also give a lot of credence to Hudna. All the Hudna means is that "let's take a break while I re-arm". Even an Israeli, former Israeli or whatever it is you are now should understand this. In any event, I would rather sit in Tiberias with you eating Khumus (as we had once shared thoughts on it) than engage in silly arguments. Regards, Eli

Earth to Fatih (and Mark Lincoln). "By 1999 the Turkish military had pretty well repressed the insurgency in southeastern Turkey...Large parts of Southeastern Turkey were just wiped out, thousands of villages destroyed, the population driven out...according to Kurdish sources, which are pretty careful, there were maybe up to 3 million refugees...there were 50,000 killed" (Chomsky and Achcar, Perilous Power, 2009, pp. 124-125).

firstly ,as a turk i like jews more than hypocrite arab states. but before gaza war israel PM came to turkey and he said to our PM War wont be.and after strike against gaza, turkey feel it was cheated by israel. and you all says turkishPM came from islamist root that's true but its not all reason of that behaviour. In turkey alllll parties _even secular parties_ say erdogan you're supporting to israel, you should ban israel jets to exercise in Turkey. regards

Fighting back is god's give right 'under the influence of common sense'. ( an eye for an eye ). To think differently 'is under the influence of prejudicial madness of hate'.

had to ask old arafat what in the h*ll did he just do, they couldnt believe it.He was offered so much, they would of had their own country, living in peace if not for this idiot. Countless lost their lives because of his stupidity and or possible dementia, what a monster. For those that aren't aware it was him that gave the order that our ambassador to Sudan be executed in a basement, he specifically ordered that he be shot from the feet up, whoever says he was a man of peace is ignorant and mislead. May he rot in hell.

It relied heavily on unverfied statements from Hamas,rejects evidence that buildings were Hamas strongholds used ambulances and fired from around schools hospitals etc.The whitewash includes". ?It may be that the Palestinian combatants did not at all times adequately distinguish themselves from the civilian population,? says the report about Hamas in civilian clothes firing rockets from urban areas. That line says it all about the tone of the report. It left B'Tselem less than impressed.

It relied heavily on unverfied statements from Hamas,rejects evidence that buildings were Hamas strongholds used ambulances and fired from around schools hospitals etc.The whitewash includes". ?It may be that the Palestinian combatants did not at all times adequately distinguish themselves from the civilian population,? says the report about Hamas in civilian clothes firing rockets from urban areas. That line says it all about the tone of the report. It left B'Tselem less than impressed.

and shuns Hamas, Hezbollah, vigorously condemns their attacks on Israeli civilians, then the world will not blame "Islam". Why do Arabs and Muslms expect the West to safegaurd their children moreso than they? Terrorists who use residential areas to launch terrorist attacks are solely and murderously repsonsible for the deaths of their women and children shields.

Turkey troops would invade Gaza, and kill every last Hamas "man" who uses Gazan children as cover. The entire Arab Islamic world could snuff out Hamas, but alas, their hatred of Israel is the determinate factor here, not their faux concern of the children held hostage by Hamas.

country on this planet and your comments will hold true for all of them. Except maybe for "small". Mark, you seem to take an exceptional interest in Israel. Have you been there?

a country faced with tens of thousands of missiles pointed at her, and with constant attempts to delegitimise her, can hardly be what you call "pragmatic." israel, with the lebanon war and the operation in gaza, has been able to provide peace to her citizens. it may not be a lasting peace, but peace it is. people like you try to portray israel as a goliath fighting little david. that is simply your own illusion.

"Rockets fell on Sderot because of conditions brought about by Israel in Gaza. " - Yaakov Sullivan And that is no more a justification for that terrorism than claiming that bombing a hospital in Gaza is justified by the rocket attacks on Sderot. We all must see the difference between a justification and a cause. Those two evil acts of terrorism might have causes, but they have no justification. Both sides are failing miserably to solve what is in fact a mutual problem. Which is each other. Israel is not going away, and it lacks the will to expunge the Palestinians. The extremists on both side, who control the agenda, will settle for nothing less than the impossible. And the majority who might, do not restrain them. Thus we have excuses on both sides for horrors no decent person can defend. "Retribution often means that we eventually do to ourselves what we have done unto others." - Eric Hoffer

FALSEHOODS REPORT: There is no evidence of Palestinian fighters using civilian clothes. FACT: Journalists and eyewitnesses repeatedly noted the use of civilian clothes by Hamas fighters. REPORT: There is no evidence of armed groups directing civilians to areas where attacks were being launched or forcing them to remain in the vicinity of attacks. FACT: Palestinian witnesses and video evidence reveal that fighters did direct civilians to areas where attacks were being launched. REPORT: There is no evidence that hospitals or ambulances were used for military activities. FACT: Eyewitnesses describe Palestinian firing from hospitals and use of ambulances. REPORT: The mission could not determine whether mosques were used for military purposes. FACT: There is video evidence of weaponry stored in a mosque, and of secondary explosions of mosques consistent with the storage of explosives. REPORT: The amount of aid allowed into Gaza by Israel decreased after the end of the fighting. FACT: If not false, the assertion is at best disingenuous. The average weekly number of humanitarian shipments increased in the months after the war ended. TESTIMONY: The Zeitoun area is pacifist and had no militant groups or rocket fire. REPORT: The Report deemed that this witness is credible and reliable, and there is no reason to doubt his testimony. FACT: There are many documented cases of Palestinian militants being killed in armed clashes in the neighborhood. TESTIMONY: The al Fakhoura area was not used to fire at Israel, and no combatants were killed in the Fakhoura incident. REPORT: The Report was based in part on three interviews with the Hamas official who made the above claim, and did not cast doubt on his testimony. FACT: Palestinian eyewitnesses and Israel note that the area was used to fire at Israel, and that combatants were killed in the Israeli strike

it is difficult to predict what turkey will do. as a member of nato, it should refrain from certain provocations. the present u.s. administration is not leading, but rather, following. olmert's attempt to use turkey as an intermediary with syria was totally ill-conceived. erdogan felt betrayed when the deal did not materialise. turkey's attempt to play the middle man between the arabs and the west, and between iran and the west, is equally ill-conceived.

Usually in Turkey some anti-Semites would miss pronounce my name as Davi as a derogatory way singing a song that rhymes with it. I guess that's what you were trying to do.

You are proud that Sultan Suleyman sieged Vienna in 1529 in order to grow its empire without being attacked while in the siege many civilians died including children babies elderly etc. You are proud that in 1974 in Cyprus thousands of Greeks went missing and recently it was discovered that many captured Greek soldiers were executed and put into the mass graves. At least I and many Jews are not happy about some of the actions of Israel and we question them. I understand you being proud of your nations this is admirable but recognizing the ills and understanding the reasons should not make you less proud. At least Mehmet who posts here has the guts to put some responsibility to the bad acts of the TSK.

I have not made the mountain of a mole hill , I have not blown it out of proportion. "Hamas was also condemned for war crimes by firing rockets into Sderot. That is not the point. The point is precsely what the reopr t points out as excessive agreession " One sees ten times the condemnation of Israel without the points that the UN should have addressed such as hate of JEWS, not just Israelis, from both Hamas and Hesbulloh. These are governments/groups bent on Israels destruction. I have said repeatedly when in 2005 Israel VACATED Gaza instead of building Cafes and building beaches in Gaza they yelled Jihad , Danced in the streets at 9/11 sent bombers into Israel had they truly geared themselves on Peace instead of Imams in Hamas TV yelling death and kill Jews perhaps there would never have been a cast Lead. Yaakov you claim you are Jewish , they claim hatred for Jews Please do the math.

When Turkey elects Ahmet Turk, Osman Baydar or Leyla Zana as PM or president then I will buy your words. Ozal, Hikmet Cetin never identified themselves as Kurds. Ozal said that his mother was Kurd that's all. He identified himself more as a Muslim than anything else. Hikmet Cetin identifies himself as a Turk. How about a Jew or Christian PM or president? Do you believe Turkey ever will have one? And finally I do not equate Kurds to the Palestinians. When Kurdish terrorists fight the TSK they do not risk the lives of their civilians, they hide in isolated mountains, Hamas hides among the civilians. See the difference?

All four nations have been abused by Israel in the last year for their efforts to aid it. It is possible the entire world is wrong and Israel is right. Or it might just be Israel has very bad leadership right now. Perhaps those four nations have each suffered for trying to disabuse Israel of folly.

should have not used their kids as "child soldiers" and armed them to fight. But they have and did and still do.

"Even if Ottoman Empire was so-called "sick man of Europe", it would not justify genocide for them, because they were still Muslims and they had still concious." - Faith Agreed. I did not 'justify' the genocide, indeed the Ottomans didn't justify it either. They hid it. Which shows they knew it was wrong. The Ottomans took power by force. They were not as evil as many nor as benevolent as others. Attaturk was a great man and restored Turkey as a modern and decent nation. Had the Ottomans not become depraved and degenerate he would not have needed to do so.

extremists we ALL have to go through the same security checks at airports. Quit whining, you aren't the only ones who have to stand in line, show up 2 hours before a flight and be scrutinized, luggage searched, taking off our shoes, walking through metal detectors. Quit whining the nutters put us all in the same position equally. Isn't that what you want, equality?

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Curious that Eric Hoffer could so well describe 'the true believer.' There are people so weak, self-righteous and self-doubting that they must identify with a mass movement, a cause, and they hold that cause to be pure, anyone who questions that cause in any way is evil. There are plenty of examples on these forums of people who hold Israel to be perfection or perfectly evil. Both absurd positions. When anyone questions their faith, or the object of their faith, they must defend it by lying to themselves and all. Israel is a nation, a small nation, and one with very real problems. It is not coping well with those problems as it once did with far more pressing problems. Israel does not need true believers, it needs pragmatists. Pragmatism was once Israel's great strength. True believers believe have found their solution and need no other. Israel needs real solutions to real problems. And it is not producing them.

And thank god he gave that Cairo speech. Turkey tried to be an impartial broker in bringing peace and dignity to the region, acting as mediator between Israelis and Palestinians. Israel betrayed that trust in every instance. Turkey does not stand alone in its horror at Israel's conduct in Operation Cast Lead. It stands with the rest of the world that has read and internalised the Goldstone Report. Israel's rage has nothing to do with morality but its furor over knowing that humpty dumpty has fallen and all bibs men cannot put him back together again. And you misjudge President Obama. It is not appeasement but justice that concerns him and jhopefully he will succeed in resisting the power of the zionist lobby.

As far as I know there are some mistakes in your statement. We never treated civilians as you describe. My word against yours. I agree that we had many wars in our history. But as you mention they were wars. Soldiers on both sides.. Fighting in equal terms. NOt against civilians, women, children.. Besides war has its own rules. And we have always been loyal to those rules. You may believe what you like. But this is our history which we are very proud.

You seem to forget that Hamas was also condemned for war crimes by firing rockets into Sderot. That is not the point. The point is precsely what the reopr t points out as excessive agreession intentionally carried out against civilians or civilain infrastructure. Don't try and make this out to be something aother than it is. Rockets fell on Sderot because of conditions brought about by Israel in Gaza. Inhumane repression turning a civilian population into caged animals. Further, if you are honest in checking the record you will find that in almost every case where a hudna had been declared, it was broken by Isreli provocation.

Thank you for your kind words about Turkey and Istanbul. We thank God in every opportunity that we live in Istanbul. For me most beautiful city in whole world.

Even if Ottoman Empire was so-called "sick man of Europe", it would not justify genocide for them, because they were still Muslims and they had still concious. It was simply not in their nature. You can not show one single event that Muslim Turks being merciless on other people in whole history other than this so-called genocide. We accept that some people died. But it was not genocide. It was for the protection of other citizens of Ottoman.

Didn't the Ottoman Turks siege Vienna leaving its population to starve or die from diseases not for defense but just to conquer more land in Europe? Didn't modern Turkey kill many Cypriots and bury them in mass graves as it was recently discovered including the one family buried around Lapithos? Unfortunately war is hell and every country that goes to war even when it is a defensive one kills. Unfortunately killing is the nature of war and Turks have gone to more wars than most other nations. In fact when they were coming from central Asia to west they acted as mercenary armies to the Persian and Arabic tribes before they adopted Islam and founded the Selcuk state.

really who her friends truly are. Politics aside it is an amazing country. People Like Mr. Lincoln show their colors when they resort to name calling, you know when all else fails... Anyway good reasoning on your last post #118. Perhaps People should look at whenJihadists start calling for death to all religions including possibly his ( unless he is a Jihadist himself) Specifically not only targeting Israelis but Jews worldwide. Like the torture and musrder recently in Mumbai.

If crimes were really committed by the TSK, they should be brought to light too. Hiding them and pretending that they never occured is not only immoral but also illogical. Unless an army fights its own crimes it will slowly slowly become rotten. In boıth IDF and TSK there are brilliant soldiers who respect the human life and try to carry out their duties. But there are also people who are not like that and sorry I cannot say I cannot criticize them just because the war against terror is dirty. Also, do not equatre kurds to the palestinians. ozal was kurdish, Hikmet cetin whom Ipersonally know was kurdish. Until Israel elects an arab president like we did in ozal's case we are not on the same keel.

As an Israeli I know that Israel has had great ties with Turkey, a very mystically wonderful place. From Mount Ararat to the windy streets of Istanbul. The Agean a Beautiful part of your country. Israel had it's back up too many bopmbings in the Negev too many threats from Jew Hating Hamas. Most civilised people recognise that. I loved my short visit many years ago to Turkey.

"If Ottoman Turks were capable of genocide why would they wait four hundred years." - Faith Because for most of that time the Ottomans were powerful. By the time they descended to genocide they were 'the sick man of Europe.' An empire so ridden by intrigue and incompetence that other European nations were concerned it would disintegrate at any time. It is absurd to blame Turkey today for the actions of an depraved and degenerate dying empire. p.s. you might enjoy today's cartoon in arab news.

your anti-israel rantings, year after year, are totally boring and meaningless. more importantly, you are clueless. turkey has decided to move close to syria, hence iran. such a move has to do with turkey's perceived needs. it furthermore falls in line with the present u.s. administration's ill conceived notions of appeasing syria and everyone else in the muslim world. indeed, the major reason given for obama's nobel win was his cairo speech.

Being half educated is really bad, at the time of 1915 Massace it was the young Turks or you call them `ittihat terakki` who were taking decisions not the sultan..unlike Ottomans who were Islamic, they were nationalistic

As Muslims Turks are not allowed to kill civilians. It is strongly forbidden. People died in war conditions, but it was never a systematically killing. If Ottoman Turks were capable of genocide why would they wait four hundred years. They had every possible way to do that. But they could not do it, because it was agains everything they believed. As Turks we have always been on the side of justice. We made mistakes but not deliberately, mercilessly killings. It is not our thing. The whole history is full of the samples Turks helping the ones in neede: either Jew, or European Or Arab. And although some mistakes had been done agains our Kurdish brothers. We are members of a family. We are like bone and flesh. One should not make the mistake that Kurds and Turks different in any way. By the way thank you Mark, you are a true friend. Best Regards!

JHon, You should refer to 1936 Arab revolt against the British is believed to have been at least partially funded by Nazi Adolf Eichmann, and Al Husseini again ordered armed Arab militias to massacre Jewish citizens. When British authorities finally quelled the rebellion in 1939, Al Husseini fled to neighboring Iraq and helped to orchestrate a 1941 anti-British jihad. As in Jerusalem, the British successfully put down the rebellion and Al Husseini fled to Nazi Germany. Al Husseini found the Nazis to be a strong ideological match with his anti-Jewish brand of Islam, and schemed with Hitler and the Nazi hierarchy to create a pro-Nazi pan-Arabic form of government in the Middle East. But what the heck Husseini was the first of all possible terrorists , we should forget that right? Nah!

Does the name Begin and Shamir tell you some think about the founders of trorrism in the Middle east

I drove the coast from San Francisco to LA and all of it is great. ll be around Carmel peninsula and Monterrey another great Pacific location not far from the Big Sur.

You becoime somewhat offended by anyone who challenges you, I merely pointed out from BUG SUR, as you called it, that you cannot possibly believe half of the trash you posted if you saw the film where you said poor palis are always rained on and with phospherous, indeed that was a wrong thing for IDSF to do but, imagine how many BIG PUDDLES of blood could have been avoided if Hamas did not fan the flames.

War is war but the Gaza offensive was like a platoon of special forces attacking a kindergaten. When the children hid behind the teachers the children were blamed for hiding. Though I am extremely pro Israel this was not our proudest moment. Time to atone. Ben

Israel, once the most pragmatic and resourceful of nations, finds itself in the position of having no effective strategy and fruitless tactics. Once upon a time a 'great victory' was just that, a natal country defeating five armies, david beating Goliath in six days, and the nation which stopped two offensives at either end of the nation within weeks. Now a 'great victory' is bombing sewage stations, water plants, UN facilities apartments, schools and hospitals. The situation a year ago was that Hamas was stopping Islamic Jihad from rocket attacks on Israel. What is the situation today? In October 2008 Israel had planned to end the Cease Fire and had scheduled the opening of Cast Lead to coincide with the graduation at the Gaza police academy. Cast Lead happened, and Israel is paying a big price for the pleasure. Meanwhile, Hamas is stopping Islamiic Jihad from launching rockets. . . Israel has no strategy to deal with Palestine. It just keeps failing. Not good for Israel.

Lahbras forgot what he told me when we talked how Yitsak Epstein was one of the first Palestinians and he was a Zionist Jew he told me not to quote ancient history. Aint that a slap in the face for you. There is your awaited explanation. "Remember your post yesterday---when I pointed out to you that Jewish terrorist--members of Irgun and lehi had committed crimes---your response was But Labhras that was 70 yeras ago" and Hamas is comitting those crimes today.

Actually, Ghenghis Khan was tolerant of other religions because he thought this was an issue of personal belief, not political or civil involvement. The turkic people did belong to many religions, muslim, buddhist, even some Jewish; however this does not mean the Turks and Jews are Khazars. This is another myth. I would guess we could trace the migration of Jews from the Holy Land when Romans enslaved them and deported them to the Roman lands, thus, on to Spain, etc. and then to Turkey, Poland, etc. Jews are semitic people. Looking for the lost tribe is fiction, not fact. The trouble is separating all this fiction from fact. I would say people are subject to fraud all the time, whether buying a racial theory, a washing machine, or a stock on Wall Street. Gullible people will buy that lemon though; well, you bought a lemon.

Wow, that was the most funniest thing i read on this forum. You should become a stand-up comedian. I am going to post your remarks on the internet. I hope you won't mind. I don't dare to post my comments now. :-)

"Also let me remind you that Israeli Knesset accepted the Clinton parameters after a vote. This is the written history by the people who were there such as Bill Clinton, Dennis Ross, Madelaine Albreicht." EXCELLEBNT post perfectly explained

Arafat rejected Clinton's peace plane because Jerusalem, some of West Bank and the right to return were not included and told Clinton and Barak "The person who agrees this peace plan is not born yet"

" but Mr Lincoln did not see the footage of houses being bombed in Sderot." - Bug Sur You clearly have no memory. I did see them. I have long commented upon the problem of defending against rocket attacks. Sderot has nothing to do with the attitude of Israel towards the world. Israel in the last few decades has changed from seeking good relations with as many nations as possible to treating everyone with contempt. Turkey, after decades of cultivation was an ally, and during Cast Lead pled with Israel to moderate it's attacks on civilian targets. Israel has even turned on the US with it's smear campaign against Obama. When the Israeli right has finished with it's snit Israel will be far worse off and need to spend decades rebuilding the relationships Netanyahu is destroying for laughs.

"The USA chose the side of a non member of Nato --Israel, over that of a member---Turkey. Damn right we should be upset" Canada and Australia defend Israel (they are members of NATO too) so what point are you making? None like usual.

the positive contributions and positive aspects of Islam,(And we, ourselves may add Judaism. Christianity? Buddhism?). Will that placate the Turks from now on? That may be perhaps what we will have to do in the future as we deal with Hamas, Iran, Hez, et. al. and sic. Frankly, I don't give too much of a hoot when it comes to religion as much as I give priority to things that are truly artistic and inspired. Islamic Art and Architecture are rather interesting. Kahlil Gibran was an Arab Christian who was a great poet. But I guess the Muslim Imans want our leaders to kiss their toucheses. I wouldn't kiss the touches of a Rabbi, let alone a Mullah's. I nearly alway's close my day with a Shma. I avoid pork. I write on this site. I pray the World does not end while I am in it. That's about the extant of my Judaism. I am for Obama and Peres. I was for Rabin while he was alive. Uri Avnery is somewhat okay but he gives away the farm and is too left. I can't do that. I want all the cards.

Hmmm "Now Israel has nothing but contempt for the entire world." It is probably useless to discus this point, but Mr Lincoln did not see the footage of houses being bombed in Sderot. If it wasn't for the fact the Israelis (us) used our heads to contemplate making bomb shelters for our citizens and gas masks perhaps the bombed out children's kindergarten in the film would have had some dead children from the rocket that did land there. and Mr Lincoln would have nothing further to argue. As to have any contempt perhaps it is because UNIFil has chosen to ignore the same things mr Lincoln ignores.

Israel and Turkey are natural allies and at least the Israeli leaders understand it and despite all the hostilities from RT Erdogan they are keeping preserving the relationship.Becaus as (I believe it was) Ali Riza Binboga who had said in his song TOMORROW IS ANOTHER DAY (yarin bir baska gun). I have always had a liking for the people of the lack Sea coast (LAZ) for their sense of humor and simple intelligence. Since you are from Trabzon maybe you are one.

The problem with Internet is that anyone can post anything right or wrong in it and readers believe these are facts but they are not. Ataturk was born to Zubeyde hanim a very devout Muslim family and initially went to an Islamic Medrese near Thessaloniki but di dnot like it and switched to Semsi Efendi school. After his father died he went to military school.He was not Jewish. It is the Islamists who hate his reforms in Turkey that made this lie Mesut Ozel was never PM or president of Turkey. Turgut Ozal was. Again half knowledge in your part. Ismail Cem was not of Greek descent. There is a possibility that he was from a family follower of Sabetay Sevi but there has never been any real information to substantiate it. (Although the Sabetayists were deported to Creete they are not Greeks) All these rumors claiming that some modern reformist Turkish leaders were of Jewish, Sabetayist or Greek descent were spread by the Islamist Necmettin Erbakan and his friends.

You all act like you are very high skilled international diplomats. Is this what they call a mob rule, a democracy. I am glad that the world is run by elitist and not by you people because your opinions are childish and ignorant. If the Israeli officials say that Turkey is important for strategic ties, then I think that your brains don't get it. It's easy to divorce a women if you are single. This is the Israeli and Turkish goverment you are talking about, not a grocery stores.

Check your own recent history before accusing others.

When Clinton's presidential term came to its end Arafat called him to congratulate him telling Clinton that he was a most successful president. Clinton answered him that he was not successful. He had been a failure and Arafat made him one. (Ref: Bill Clinton, My Life) This alone is fact that Arafat was responsible of the failure of Camp David. Also let me remind you that Israeli Knesset accepted the Clinton parameters after a vote. This is the written history by the people who were there such as Bill Clinton, Dennis Ross, Madelaine Albreicht.

If you ask why? It's because Jews in the diaspora have very less stress, are less paranoid, are less afraid, live in better and much greener and healthier places then the Israeli's. The Israeli's live in a little dry land and fight for every rock that isn't worth fighting for. I prefer to be living like a king in a strange land than living like a beggar in the holy land.

Israel should decline any further invitations from Turkey until a public apology is made. What a low blow from a so-called "friend." A friend that does that is a friend to no one. And the dishonesty. The false picture of directly targeted children. A new blood libel? When it comes to ethics, Turkey doesn't hold a candle to Israel. Please stop using Jews to further political ends. It's rude, and it shows a "bottom of the barrel" desperation.

Prime Minister Erdogan has alot of Chutzpah to blame Israel from protecting its citizens from missiles launched on them from Terrorists in Gaza. The World got it right "Islamic Terrorism" is not acceptable and each Nation has the right of self defense!

Ataturk hated the Arabs, and isolated the Turks from muslims and Arab people, because he felt that Arabs betrayed the Turks and conspired with Great Britain in the WW1. Which the Arabs did. So Mesut Ozal was a prime minister of Turkey of Kurdish descent, and Ismail Cem was a foreign minister of Greec descent. So I don't think that you know much about Turkey. Why didn't the U.S.A. had a Native American as a president?

Barak was two weeks away from an election in Israel where Sharon was pasting him by using his (Baraks own clims to be "Going Farther than any PM" had ever gone. It was Barak who left the negotiations to get back to save his political backside. Read schlomo Ben Ami,s book---"scars of War---wounds of peace" for a birds eye view of those talks. Here is a small example--. Tactical shortcomings were by not,of course, a Palestinian monopoly.Barak and his team were full of them.For example, the Primeminister was too slow to grasp the centrality of the issue of Jerusalem at this conference and was therefore unprepared for the far reaching concessions that were required.Nor were Barak,s bargaining positions on the territorila issue reasonable enough to be seen by the Palestinians as credible.To start as he did, with a proposal of a Palestinian State on 66 per cent of the West Bank in ordeer to offer later at Camp David 87 per cent and not reject ut of hand Clinton,s proposals at the summit of 91 per centWas an indication to the Palestinians that he did not really have red lines.Baraks negotiating tactics were a standing invitation to the Palestinians to keep the pressure on the Israelis and never say yes to what Bark liked to call his "Generous Proposals". The question of Israel,s unreasonable point of departure for negotiations with potential Arab interlocaturs, whether Palestinians,Syrians or Egyptians, is of far reaching significance.Israel,s unrealistic bargaining positions failed to convince the Arabs of the seriousness of her professed quest for peace and only invited them to never accept an Israeli as final The Israeli internal discourse on the price of peace has therefore always been an excerise in wishful thinking and self deceipt, not least of course with regard to the Palestinian question. Schlomo Ben Ami---Baraks FM from his book,"Scars of War, Wounds of Peace" pages 250/251.

1893. The operations were carefully planned in all their phases. Legal opinions and advice were given throughout the planning stages and at certain operational levels during the campaign. There were almost no mistakes made according to the Government of Israel. It A/HRC/12/48 page 408 is in these circumstances that the Mission concludes that what occurred in just over three weeks at the end of 2008 and the beginning of 2009 was a deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability. 1894. The Mission has noted with concern public statements by Israeli officials, including senior military officials, to the effect that the use of disproportionate force, attacks on civilian population and the destruction of civilian property are legitimate means to achieve Israel?s military and political objectives. The Mission believes that such statements not only undermine the entire regime of international law, they are inconsistent with the spirit of the Charter of the United Nations and, therefore, deserve to be categorically denounced. 1895. Whatever violations of international humanitarian and human rights law may have been committed, the systematic and deliberate nature of the activities described in this report leave the Mission in no doubt that responsibility lies in the first place with those who designed, planned, ordered and oversaw the operations.

"1892. Allied to the systematic destruction of the economic capacity of the Gaza Strip, there appears also to have been an assault on the dignity of the people. This was seen not only in the use of human shields and unlawful detentions sometimes in unacceptable conditions, but also in the vandalizing of houses when occupied and the way in which people were treated when their houses were entered. The graffiti on the walls, the obscenities and often racist slogans, all constituted an overall image of humiliation and dehumanization of the Palestinian population.

My reply to Labhras was not posted. I am all for bringing irgun into justice along with Hamas and its leaders like Khaled Meshal. Let me go one step further; I am also for bringing those Kahanist extremists who use force to justice also along with Hamas. Read my post to Mehmet again wher eI mentioned that war is hell and should be avoided. However when Arabs launch qassams killing babies like Dorit Benisian and Yuval Abebeh this is war and Israel has UNFORTUNATELY to defend. Palestinian Arabs had many chances to make peace which they refused. The Clinton plan was a big opportunity lost. Gaza disengagement could have been used as an opportunity for peace but Arabs use it for launching rockets.

I love my country the USA and I am very happy with its democracy despite the fact that it has some anomalies. The difference is that we the people have a saying to make the change and correct them. I am glad that in my country a man from modest family with diverse ethnic background can become the president while in Turkey there has never been a none Muslim president or PM and there will never be. Despite the few anomalies here in the USA, the country I am proud to be a citizen I or we there people can make the change and our voices are heard. I, little David Israel have access to my councilmen John Liu (Chinese)Tony Avella (Italian) reps Ackgerman and Wrangle, senators Charles Shumer and Gillibrand. I have met them all except Gillibrand in person.

They both come from the same Khazarian people who ruled the Khazar Empire in the 8 century till 13th century. Nowadays the region is called Ukraine and Georgia. Some Khazarian people choose Judaism, and some choose to be muslim after the collapse of the empire, they spread over the world. Khazarian muslims moved to Turkey. While Khazarian Jewish people wandered around the world.

and a British citizen saying that what was the British Empire and history of their colonies? Still ''Mountain Turk'' issue maybe you need to check google what happening at last days Protocols signed with Armenia too even your own government biggest source ''Blue Book'' which written in UK called ''LIE'' kkthnxbye

The 99.99% of the moderate muslims need to take a stand and talk against the extremists in their midst who commit crimes & jihad in the name of islam. The silence of this 99.99% of muslims and their government is deafening indeed. Until you take a stand against it, you are considered part of it. Knowing that imams habitually preach against jews ,Israel, the US and the West in their mosque sermons, does not help. Knowing that muslim minorities well integrated in Europe have sons who chose Jihad over liking their country of adoption does not help either. Most terrorist acts worldwide are still committed by muslims and there is no public condamnation of those acts by any muslim country or citizen.

Aren`t the following also a form oppression?- David Israel Firing white phosphorus into civilian areas? Shooting teenagers and younger children throwing stones in protest? Expropriating Palestinian lands in conquered territories and expelling the owners while redistributing the land to ethnically pure Israeli citizens? I recall in Israel being told by an IDF officer how they shoot for the kneecaps to cripple for life. David Israel --What you are saying was 70 years ago- To Labhras about the Stern & Irgun atrocities. So let me understand you. Does this mean it was ok while your terrorists did it, but now since it was 70 years ago and you have stopped and it is no longer acceptable or allowed? The shoah was about 70 years ago , that doesn?t count either? Holding 1 and ½ million people in an open air prison for 40 years is not a form of oppression? When the oppressed Palestinians in this open air freedom fight back, Israel?s right to keep them there is not oppression, it is called self defense?

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No doubt there are many well educated modern secular Turks (with whom I grew up in Izmir) who do not hate Jews. You should also remember that 1. In 1936 the Jews of Kirklareli were deliberately and with the knowledge of the authorities were attacked, their houses and businesses destroyed, women raped men stabbed (I know one man whose face had the scar of the stabbing for the rest of his life) 2. In 1941 the Varlik Vergisi took all the belongings of Jews including their pots and pans, men sent to Ashkale labor camp. My parents had their share of it too. 3. Young Jewish men who had already served in the military were called for a so called second service in reality a labor camp called 20 kura military service. My father was among them. It is good to remember the good that your people did but also you should learn the other side of the coin. Jews welcomed to Ottoman land were left living in destitute until rich French Jews helped them through Alliance Israelite Universelles.

First, no one, certainly not Goldstone, is saying that Israel has no right to defend its citizens. That is nonsense/ Hamas was condemned as well for firing qatyushas into Sderot and other population centers. That is not what Israel is being judged on. The crimes it is being judged on have nothing to do with defence but with punitive measures taken against a civilian population that are alleged to be war crimes, ie. use of phosphorous bombs, intentional bombing of civilian targets merely to punish a civilian population. As for threats and extortion that clearly comes from Israel and this gasbag netanyahu and his moldvan pitbull trying to work their zionist frontmen in the US and EU. Israel must be held to account and using this "defence of our civilians" nonsense is a non starter since no one is making that charge except you as a deflection from the real charges.

1 - They brutally occupy Kurdistan, denying this ancient people it's homeland. They even deny them their existence, calling them "mountain turks". 2 - They committed genocide on the Armenians in 1915, slaughtering over 100,000 christian civilians. 3 - They occupy northern cyprus after a vicious unprovoked attack in 1974. "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" - Sura 2:14

have for Jewish terrorism. Remember your post yesterday---when I pointed out to you that Jewish terrorist--members of Irgun and lehi had committed crimes---your response was "But Labhras that was 70 yeras ago" and Hamas is comitting those crimes today. So now you want to change the rules when the TSK is involved---hmmmm. Can you explain please????.

Unlike the Irgun of course who were peace loving freedom fighters!

Marhaba Atilla, You want Justice for all children? Great! So when are we holding Turkey responsible for the genocide of Armenian children and the wholesale slaughter and oppression of the Kurdish children which is still ongoing?

The Islamic and Arab block fundamentally make the "legal case" that given its fundamental and non-erasable sins Israel has no right to self-defense and it's enemies may attack it without suffering consequences or retaliation. Israel must forthrightly condemn what are no more and no less than declarations of war made under diplomatic cover and also make clear to its neighbors and distant interlocutors that israeli citizens have the sechel to distinguish between rain and spittle. Negotiations between Israel and the PA cannot be conducted under threat of extortion.

The outcome is evident. The winner is Turkey. Turkey is big player in the central Eurasia and has much to offer. Israel offers only a constant row of troubles and new conflicts.

When you accept that Turkish Military committed crimes against humanity in Cyprus when they buried tens of thousands of Greeks in mass graves which some were recently discovered as well as the civilian family whose mass grave at Laphidos was recently discovered and bring the TSK to answer for these crimes in front of the human rights court then you will have the right to ask the same from the IDF. How about that? War itself is a crime. Weather it is TSK defending the Turks in Cyprus or IDF defending Israelis in Gaza there is always many lives lost. If in each of these case a country and its military will be taken to court terrorist groups like PKK, Hamas and Al Kaida would be rooling the world. I do support human rights and peace but when you have these terrorist organizations, fighting them will be UNFORTUNATELY dirty and costly. Turks with commonsense already are aware of this.

a more moderate country , but extremists , like the current president , are on the rise .

Turks should be the last ones to blame others for committing crimes against humanity!Turks have committed all kind of crimes against humanity.Genocide against armenians, assyrians and other non moslims.Even against people on Balkans. Their arguments regarding armenians cooperations with russians are nonsens! Isn't it enough evidence that they have wiped all christians from their 4000 thousand years homeland?In beginning of last century 30% of Turkeys population were non moslims, today only 0,1%!!! What happened to this people?

Turkey stopped understanding the great Ataturk the day when the Islamist gangs attacked the Madimak hotel in Sivas on July 2, 1993. Current Turkish politicians do not understand anything except Islamization of modern Turkey. The election system also is one that excludes a minimum of the 10% of the voters since the rule is that any party that does not receive at least 10% of all votes are excluded and their votes are distributed to the bigger parties. This alone makes a mockery of democracy and fair representation. Hopefully one day - and soon - there will be some one with common sense and dedication to the reforms of Kemal Ataturk will take the leadership of Turkey.

Oh, get off your self righteous train! Israel did all it could diplomatically and with its lobbying efforts to deny intarnational recognition of the Armenian genocide.

Do you hate Turkey bombing the Kurds? Do you hate Turkey destroying 4000 Kurdish villages? Do you hate Turkey denying they killed 1.5 million Armenians?

as long as you do the killing?( what about the Armenians and the kurds?) Hmm, why then should you complain when others defend themselves against 12,000 rockets being fired into Israel? Would Turkey have been so patient for so long? Turkey created this mess w/ one mans big mouth. Live w/ it, he's your man, not ours. Now, the best he can do is take his marbles and go home? ( or, maybe he lost his marbles?)

First of all, Turkey never hated the Jewish people. I want to remember you all what the Turks did in history for the jews. During the Ottoman empire whe helped you from europe. During the WOII we helped you all from Hitler. And now we have a crissis in diplomatic relations, but that doesn't mean that we hated Jews allways. We just hate your actions against civils in Gaza, that's all. Nothing more.

Napoleon was a pretty good general until he stopped using his head and started depending upon brute force.

The failure of Israel in the last two major actions is based upon the belief that one may fight war on the 'cheap'. This is exactly the same thinking that led America to lose two wars in the last decade. The right likes to fantasize about quick, easy and cheap victories based upon blowing up a lot of easy targets. It doesn't work. War is not a photo-op, The IDF allowed lots of pretty pictures of White Phosphorous shells bursting over Palestinian cities. They were front page stuff in every Israeli paper. Striking, powerful, damning images. The problem with both the Second Lebanon War and Cast Lead is that the primary effort was not intended to destroy enemy combatants. Casualties were kept low by not pushing hard. And not pushing hard favored the real enemy. Occupation has led to frustration. The primary enemies of Israel today are creatures created by occupations, Hamas of Palestine and Hisbollah of Southern Lebanon. They are the problem, not civilians.

The Molten Lead was 100% justified despite whatever Erdogan and his ilk keep ranting. It's great to have a good relationship with Turkey, but Israel's interest shouldn't be sacrificed. A good relationship is a two-way street.

This is Turkish domestic cover. The problem is that it is going to be very hard for Turkey to climb out much like the Arab states using the conflict for a divesion from their own governments lack of "common sense," economy, or internal political rivalries.

I agree. The world was little moved by the rocket attacks on Sderot. The question unasked is was Cast Lead an appropriate response? Does one terrorist attack upon civilians warrant another? As Cast Lead evolved it became clear that the target was not Hamas. Israel chose to keep losses low by not engaging the terrorists aggressively. The strategy was to destroy civilian infrastructure so as to punish the people of Gaza collectively. Civilian casualties far exceeded terrorist killed. Israel has paid full cost in world opinion with little real effect. In The Second Lebanon War, and Cast Lead, Israel has tried to wage war against the civilians rather than the problem, and it has essentially failed each time. Hisbollah is fully recovered and Hamas was hardly hurt. The world, however, noticed the civilian targets struck, and the civilian casualties inflicted. Cast Lead is a self-inflicted wound. The full consequences of which are still to be felt. Israel has a leadership problem.

Turkey has 600+ years of skilled international diplomacy. It once rules all the arab lands, including N africa to Atlantic ocean and central asia & parts of now russia. turkey has over all been good to the Jews. It- a Sunni muslem people has a long history of battling Shia Iran. It now seeks to re-extend its influence and resist Iran's gaining power. It seeks to wean Syria from iran. Turkey educated sophisticated rulers mostly not anti Jewish nor against Israel. It is walking a tight rope.Israel & Turkey have some basic mutual interests. More patience needed for now with Turkey. Turkey does not want a stronger Iran.

All the people here (politicians too) are just talking about strategy. What will we gain if we do so, or what will we loose if do so, bla bla? It does not change the reality (the picture of war, dead people,cry,tears etc.) This is not a chess board. If you move this piece you loose horse but you get a bishop. It is not that easy. In realty there are no horses, bishops etc. What we loose are people, innocent people...children...It does not matter if they are from Israel or from Palestina or anywhere else. They are people. Think about 70 years before. Think about what Germans did. Can anybody say that Germans did the true. But at these times, beleive me, most of the germans was supporting Hitler's moves. Now...What all of us must do is simply to stand against war.

i am turk and we love ısrael. its just political problem but if u say something like armenian genocide or something like tthat we can not love u. we are proud our history

Some complains about Palestinian acts against Israel, others complain about Israeli acts against Palestinians. All of those complaining, however, cannot distinguish between Palestinian terrorism and state sponsired Israeli terrorism against Palestinian resistance and Israeli self-defence. I ask Israelis (and non-Israeli Jews) and Palestinians, please draw the line for me. Tell me where it is where you think legitimate Palestinian resistance ends and where Palestinian terrorism begins. Then tell me where legitimate Israeli self-defence ends and Israeli state-sponsord extremism begins.

Iran is dismantling the US network in ME.

and statements" Turkish Foreign Ministry.. Translation: Please don't inflame our military.....they are already itching to oust us and jail us in a coup.

As far as I can tell from what I've read, of the two countries, Israel has acted with more "common sense" while Turkey's behavior can only be described as bi-polar. Turkey is within its rights to exclude Israel from the military exercise, but given their history of mutual cooperation on many fronts, including military aid and natural disaster aid, and the fact that the (unstated/stated) reason for Israel's exclusion is the Gaza war of last January, leaves me thinking that of course the whole thing is political. Turkey has always been uncomfortable being a Muslim, non-Arab country with such close relations with the Jewish state. Israel, aware of this, and aware of how important maintaining relations with Turkey is to their interests, tip-toes on eggshells whenever Turkey is concerned. For Turkey to practically threaten Israel that it had better watch what it says is crazy: They haven't, and won't, say anything even mildly offensive. Israel is totally on the defense here.

It is not a secret that Turkey used Israel in the past to achieve aims of purely national nature (what other nation-state is not pursuing same goals?!). With the perceive influence of the Israeli-Jewish American Lobby power, Turkey proceeded to cultivate good relations with Israel, also the problem of the Armenian Genocide (with or without brackets). Now, that Obama is the US Presidency, the Armenian differences more or less corrected and Brussels more inclined to accept Turkey as part of the European Union, all of these elements facilitated a more daring move towards the Muslim-Arab world, which promises to be economically more lucrative than the Israel connections. Israel therefore is thrown into a revision of its relations not only with Turkey but with the whole Western world, if it wants to create a future buffer for its longivity: Africa, India and China came to mind. In the light of these and other reasons, Turkey is no longer a future reliable partner...

"... When Qasam missiles were rained on innocent children in Sderot, the whole world, all of humanity, watched from their comfortable chairs and their safe havens," Yonatan said.

The decision to withdraw from the drill was only to appease those sitting in the Council and similar people outside/inside Turkey, and was not important for Turkey to be in the drill. Turkey is trying very hard to Join Europian Union by working on its relation with countries on its boarders. Syria, Iraq, Armenia ...etc. But I think Turkey is much closer to Israel after understanding Iran's plans for Middle East and chaos caused by fundemantalist in Middle East, Pakistan and India and around the world and fame the terrorist are getting. But wait, the world will never forget Armenians slaughtered by swords and recent bombing of Villages in the north of Iraq and south east of Turkey: http://www.umd.umich.edu/dept/armenian/facts/genocide.html

Institutional terrorism is ignored by many because it is in defense of preserving or expanding a nation state. That is what Israel has been about in the West Bank and Gaza. Gaza showed the world the vicious and callas nature of Israeli warfare against an entire community because of a few rocket launchers. Israel has been busy trying to put the causal burden on the Palestinians. Turkey is correct in trying to place blame where blame is due, namely Israel.

That's why Turkey wanted to built a joint history commission and asked to open archives from all parts in the world. In a few year, All western countries is going to apologize from Armanians because it is going to be proved that they were used in a big game of the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire. The date of the onset of the so called genocide is conventionally held to be April 24, 1915, the day that Ottoman authorities arrested some 250 Armenian intellectuals and community leaders in Istanbul. It is the date Ottoman Empire figured out that the Armenian Ottoman Empire Citizens betrayed the state which even gave them the highest rank in the government and stabed it in the back. You will see when the history come to light who is going to appologize and it is not going to be Turkey.

It wants it desperately to be off the charts. It is employing all of its propaganda machine to put out the message, contrary to fact, that this war in Gaza was merely defensive, necessary for the secutiy of Israel, that it is a bulwark against terrorism. Turkey knows there were phosphorous bombs used against civilians, as Israel did in Lebanon, it knows that the Goldstone Report is correct in its findings. Israel cannot let this be voted on and therefore it plays the terror card, just like it does with the qualifier "Jewish State" in order to delay negotiations. Turkey is correct. They have tried to play fair with Israel and all they have got is the finger from the likes of those guilty of war crimes.

Annon, thank you for a moderate, intelligent response. However, I believe you are mistaken. Friendship implies not only accepting harsh words, but also not saying them when you know it is very sensitive, or not saying them in public anyway. Just imagine that Kurds declare that the purpose of their struggle is not independence but destruction of Turkey (as Hamas does in respect to Israel). I will assure you that Turkey would do everything possible to assure that such neighbor does not turn words into actions. They would blocade and bomb, etc. And the bombing they do anyway - although Kurds did not send thousands of missiles into Turkey... What would Erdogan say if Israel come out publicly with condemning Turkey's response? I assure you Erdogan would go crazy. It is always easy to be sanctimonious at somebody else's expense. This goes to Turkey, Goldstone, and all Human Wrongs Council members.

The cancelled exercise was a NATO one, and one that Israel should not be engaged in given the hostility of the Eurabians to Jews. Israel has a separate exercise planned with the US military for this month, the largest ever, that does not include any other States. Realistically, why would the IAF allow countries so hostile to our existence like the Eurabians access to methodology and approach?

Hasn't she done incursions into Iraqi Kurdistan ? "It's undeniable the Turkish Army has commited crimes against humanity" is much more justibiable than your accusations against the IDF. Mehmet Öcalan of the PKK is rotting in a Turkish jail with no hope for release ,while you equate Israeli actions against Hamas with "war crimes"

Even ultra-left Livni can't reach a hard-line political Islamic apologist like Erdogan. We saw the hate, and irrational behavior when Peres finally stood up to defend Jewish Rights. This man was repulsed to the core, a typical sign of a hate-filled man. Erdogan wants to pretend that terrorism is a shared violent behavior, it's not. It is historically and currently the tactic of Islamic Jihadists against the West and Jews worldwide. The deliberate targeting of civilians and then blaming the victims, in order to blur the line of morality clarity and the will to resist Islamic aspirations for world domination.

Normal. decent Muslims of any profession - and who constiture 99.99% of Muslims, are ruthlessly discriminated at airports and visa offices around the world. Where are you, Ms Livni, when you are needed to stop this discrimination - given that you know that terrorism and Islam are not the same (otherwise how can anti-terrorism and anti-Islam not be the same?)

Did we critisize Turky when they striked the Kurdish terorists?

Turkey has become more like it's neighbours than ever with propoganda and bears no remoteness to the truth

... tashakkor Turkey. Your prime minister is a brave man, as Turks are in general.

Erdogan seems more and more to be emulating Admadinejad in his rhetoric. I presume that elections will soon be forthcoming in Turkey. Another empty vessel in the making.

This speech shows how twisted Erdogan's views are on the things. Islamic terror exists and is brutal, any politician who does not admit this is part of the crime in my opinion. Crimes against humanity were committed by the IDF in Gaza, this is also an undeniable reality, yet Erdogan's way of criticizing this is strange and wrong. The problem is that Erdogan does not accept Hamas is criminal just in the same way as many israelis do not accept that IDF is criminal. All these because of extremisms, two different kinds of extremism, in the essence they are the same thing.

And then as usual the world attacked Israel for defending its citizens. Israel should not hesitate to defend its citizens in spite of the double standard that has existed and will continue to exist.

Mr. Erdogan.one simple question. why don't you tell Hamas and all the palestinian organization to recognize Israel . Tell us how can Israel negotiate with people who refused even to visit Israel to negotiate peace face to face like Assad of Syria. Stop being hypocrite and stop blaming Israel for everything and start using common sense.

Israel denies the Turkish leader entry into Gaza. Why? Israel doesn't want pictures of him among the buildings it destroyed during the Gaza attack. Pure public relations "image-making."

A true friend is one not afraid to 'speak their mind', dissagree with you, or if necessary tell you off. Turkey are indeed friends with Isreal and despite the over reaction by some in Israel, Turkey continues to work in the interests of Isreal AND THE REGION. I am still astounded by the reactions from some in Israel when friends 'dare' to dissagree or rebuke them.

----The key issue facing the region today, said Livni, was the threat of extremism ---- SO WHAT IS LIEBERMAN DOING IN THE GOVERNMENT?

go train your pilots somewhere other than sovereign Turkish soil/air-space.

Bring it back through economic integration with middle eastern countries. through joint military organizations. through a common foreign policy. we want the ottoman empire back. And let istanbul be its capital!

Do the Israeli defense officials also believe in the Easter Bunny?

"Livni urged Turkey to join the moderate elements in the region in the war on terror." Don't know whether to laugh or cry, remembering: Israel's long term occupation without the rule of law of the West Bank; mass illegal settlement; strong evidence that a series of war crimes were committed in killing hundreds of Gazan civilians; collective punishment against the survivors in Gaza. israel is in no sense a "moderate" country.

who are they to judge israel?

in politics there are no friends. everything is give and take. nothing is about justice or humanitarian feelings , every move is plain state interest.

The USA chose the side of a non member of Nato --Israel, over that of a member---Turkey. Damn right we should be upset.

Perhaps Mrs. Livni has found the difference between fighting terrorism and bombing civlians at their homes, children at their schools, so she is coming here to lecture and explain that to the turkish,shurely ,she has forgetten that Turkey had lead the Islamic world for half a century and during that period it recieved and protected jews coming from Spain .

Are political analysts blind? Can't they see what's happening in Turkey? An alliance with this country is dependable as a villa inside the crater of Mount Etna...

After this years joint military exercise between Syria and Turkey that "aims to boost friendship, cooperation and trust between Turkish and Syrian land forces and to increase the capability of border troops to train and work together.", Turkey is now being viewed as the country to wrestle Syria away from Iran. The arm sales to Lebanon had to have been approved by Washington and the latest "postonment" of joint air exercises with 'International participation' also approved by Washington. So 'Syria-Lebanon-Turkey' is in the making of an alliance. For this to happen Syria will have to distance itself from Iran and Turkey from Israel, with Lebanon having to burry its grudges with Syria. Obama is playing the diplomatic game well and while the US will never 'sell out' Israel, Obama knows that he can't trust Israel any more to play a part in 'US security interest'. The eastern flank has to be protected in another way. The tunnel under the Bosphorus strait will help, but only to a part.

I think common sense among thoso who make comments is urgently needed. Do not try to make two peoples an enemy of the other. Turks and Jews share a long history of frendship and co-habitation. This is contemporary politics where Turkey is increasing its stakes in Middle East. Try to see the big picture, there is nothing better than peace and dont be fooled by your own politicians.

and nobody is upset.

Nobody in the EU wants Turkey to join plus with independence of the former Soviet republic, Turkey has lost a lot of its appeal to the US and EU. Israel no longer needs Turkey as it used to do in the past (access to water, weapon contracts, temporary workers...). Severing or downgrading relationship with Turkey is an option worth consideration.

Turkish politicians as they are freely elected can give the right picture of the area, there is a big difference between the bitter reality and the lies that Israil liked to hear from dectators in the area who are linked in its pivot. Belive me my friends , my country elected politicians are leading you to the truth, according to which you can plan your future for fair peace.

"Turkey: It is political but it isn`t; use common sense... Turkey is making a fool of itself." No! It makes sense: their PM plays sham politics to Turkey's big religious constituency; and real politics to Israel and the West. Of course they clash... Turkey is a fragile, multi-split country...just like Iran, the split being between educated, religious and non-educated, but because of its history and proximity to Europe, fortunately, pro-Western. Moreover, they know BETTER than Europe how to handle the religious and fundamentalists...

Unfortunateley Turkey has much more strategic importance (to the US and EU) in the region than Israel itself. Loosing Turkey will leave Israel with no friends in the region. Coming to senses on this issue will help Israel.

Do you think, Iran and China will give Turkey billions of USD in transfer payment and let their unqualified "youth bulge" live in their social systems???

Turkey doesn't acknowledge their role in the Armenian genocide. Matter of fact, even in the latest accommodation with Armenia, Turkey never issued a state sponsored apology. Something which in the very least it is obliged to do. Where over a million men, women and children were massacred. FM Davutoglu speaks in diplomatic terms on the Gaza issue. He sees a role in Palestinian and Israeli negotiations... even in the Syrian debate. The real question remains, what legitimacy does Turkey have... where is their moral compass. And who gives Turkey a pass on murder and racial extermination.

The answer is simple as what came first chicken or the egg. Who knew about the cancellation or postponement of the event first. Israel or the US. If israel then it was beucase turkey is showing its true colors. If US then i might believe them. Both were not told at the same time.

Israel's common sense is to steal land from Palestinian,to make an unnecessary war in Lebanon,to put Gaza population to starvation,to attack Gaza population,to push US and her allies to bomb Iran.So Turkey would had to demand "don't use your common sense"

Turkey chose to accept Israel as a fellow nation and allow Israel to participate in many of the functions allowed a fellow nation. Last Winter, Turkey tried to tell Israel that it was putting Turkey in a position which it could not bear. Israel, having total contempt for every other nation in the world, chose to ignore the pleas of Turkey. Even now Israel choses to blame the nation it treated with contempt in return for that nation treating it as an equal. The fact is that Turkey did not chose to treat Israel as disposable until Israel treated Turkey as a used prophylactic. In a world long ago, and one held in total contempt by the psycho-right, Israel wanted to have the best possible relations with as many nations as possible. Now Israel has nothing but contempt for the entire world. Who is wrong? Israel then, or Israel today?

If Israel were under the influence of common sense, it would not have the government it voted for.

Get to know Israel better. Or fly to Italy, to Portugal, to Ibiza, to Malta, to Sicily.

While Israel likes to think of Turkey as a key player - the reality of Turkey is far from it. Turkey has no direct say in ME affairs - it adapts itself to the winds.

I think Israel should have "Common Sense" by accepting the Armenian Genocide

Turkey is making a fool of itself.

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