Sokolow's niece 'not Jewish enough' to marry here

the sad story of hillary rubin.it is about time to start investigation.the rabbnot about bribes that taking to close there eyes.thy are burdin on our pockets.

Christians are not a race. The Saxons & Normans can also have red hair just as a Hungarian, Polik, or any other European. Let me tell you why a Ketuba or Get is not sufficiant because it was prepared by a Conservative Rabbi. It does not prove beyond a doubt your mother is Halachically Jewish. The article says Quote "I am the grand-daughter of 4 Holocaust survivors" Unquote. This tells me all 4 grandparents are survivors then you tell me otherwise. The Beth Din, of which you REFUSED to go, only strengthens my suspecions. You DO have access to your mother's birth certificate and her mother's birth certificate. I know exactly what the Orthodox Rabbis are looking for and why. Take these 2 documents to the Beth Din or forever stay silent. AMEN

Who gave them the right to decide who is a Jew? Oh, of course, Israeli politicians. I made aliyah in the 1990s bnut went back to the USA after six years, in part because of I was disllusioned with this kind of thing. I told A.B. Yehoshua when he came to Georgetown University last year that it is much easier for me to be a Jew in the Diapsora than in Israel. This disgusting story shows why.

Yep, religion poisons everything, throw in a dash of nationalism and this is what you get..truly pathetic.

as i said i paid 50$ to have certificate before on comment number 215.iwould like to add .that in order to have a certificate for kosher restaurant you can get by bribing the rabbi.thats facts that i know in israel .thy are corrupt.i fell now that they are brcoming burden on us by all mean .they are bleeding us finacialy.

Between the whole conversion thing, between Israel's fakatka marriage laws, between Israel denying Jews from Africa and some from Asia that they are Jews, ec....Does Israel want Jews?!? Yes Jews, come to Israel, you'll be less protected for being Jewish and you will have less rights - all in the name of Judaism. Land of milk and honey my tuchis!

I'm sure someone else already made this comment, but this is about the Orthodox view of Liberal Judaism more then anything else. Do you think that the rabbinate would have asked for four generations of documentation if a black hat wearing orthodox man walked into his office? Of course not. He would have accepted the assertion that yes he is Jewish enough if he didn't have all documents to prove it. The fact that this woman is "conservative-ish" is why the Rabbinate is making it so hard for her. Instead of working together, he's pulling us apart. Also, I don't know what the mothers marital status has to do with anything, but I am responsible for my actions, not my mother - if she gets divorced and marries and Hindu, what does that have to do with my Judaism? Am I responsible for my whole family now? Cosmo

She is so proud of her grandfather's uncle the great Zionist leader Nahum Sokolow but what of her divorced mother married out to a Catholic. The Rabbinate exists to ensure the rules of the jewish religion are kept. If you can't satisfy the rules of the US Immigration authorities you can't get a green card. If you can't satisfy the Rabbinate you can't have a religious marriage. What is so wrong with either of those situations?

Contrast this disgusting treatment of a TRUE Jew in Israel, with the fact that Israeli leaders shower highly favored Muslims with many gifts and with Jewish land. To please totalitarian, political Islam, 10,000 Jews were viciously ethnically cleansed from Gaza-rendering the Jews homeless and impoverished. Many Jews had to live in tents for a long time. The same terrible punishment for being Jewish and not Muslim, is threatened against hundreds of thousands of Jews in Judea, Samaria and Jerusalem. Human rights for Jews now.

Orthodox zealots prevent the lady from getting married, but strangely they will consider her Jew enough to serve in the army - this way they do not have to risk their lives themselves.

If she is not Jewish enough then at least 80% of the population are not Jewish enough. Considering that the ultraorthodox have fought in the high court just to get a religious (sephardic) girl accepted to a religious (askenazi) school, you have to wonder where it will end.... First they came for the converts, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a convert.... then they came for the conservatives....

1969 i gave 50$ to yhe rabbi in order that my future wife dot have to go to the mikva.i got the certificate.

good for you that you went over their little heads and married out of the country

It's quite interesting that you can make aliya, serve in the army and very possibly get hurt and do this quite easily without having to provide a ridiculous amount of paper work proving your Jewishness going back several generations. However, in order to get married you have to jump through hoops, unless of course you decide to play the game by the rabbinate's rules and go through a quickie and quite costly "conversion", it's a financial scam and the haredim are the only one that benefit from it.

Ms Rubin shouldn't have to prove anything to the rabbis in Herzliyah. She should be able to marry whom she wants. This is what we get for allowing fanatics to take over our democracy; for shame. Don't expect the cowardly govt. members to do anything; they will just continue to suck up to the fanatics until we lose all our rights and they are in control.

If Israel becomes a fundamentalist bigoted theocracy like Iran, Ahmedinejad will be so pleased that instead of being an enemy of Israel, he would make an alliance with Israel instead. For this reason, maybe we should give even more power to the ultra-Orhtodox guys here, this way the next thing we will do is to make adultery punishable by stoning to death like Iran. This would please Al Qaeda too, and maybe they would then accept Israel as a true and authentic Middle Eastern nation that has earned the right to be here by virtue of our new-found bigotry.

It took me 9 months to make aliyah in Israel because I had letters and proof of Jewishness from a Conservative communitiy and not Orthodox. When it was finally approved I was informed I would have trouble marrying and be buried in Israel like other Jewish (Israeli-born) citizens. Why are we treated like second class citizens when we give so much to it, and it exists because of people like us? Unbelievable.

This is not about this woman its about the fact there is a process for alliyah and you must meet certain requirements. Lets say you want a job you know everything there is no know about that vocation. You don't though you never took any exams what you know is from experience not because you have formal qualifications and so the employer is going to say you don't meet the requirements so we are not going to employ you. In life there is rules for everything alliyah especially considering that after cash handouts and all the tax breaks the government gives each olleh around $20,000. To be fair to the woman the system which asks for proof of jewishness is a mess thats not intentional its just the system doesn't seem to always ask for the same thing its just a mess and needs sorting out. When I wanted to make alliyah the Jewish Agency wanted just about every document you could want including passports going back to when I was about 10 & how many people hold onto passports that long the process was a nightmare. I was in an absorbtion centre for the first 6 months where I shared a room with an American. He had never even visited Israel in his life and he was there because he had lost everything back in the US and he knew that olim get lots of financial benefits so his thinking was start over in Israel with help from the state. As I say he had no proof of being jewish but what they ended up accepting was a photograph of him standing next to his grandmothers grave ( she had a jewish name ) so the man took a picture standing next to a grave which could have belonged to anybody and he was trusted & they wanted all kinds of information from me. When I brought over a shipment to collect it from customs they wanted some rediculous things I couldn't practically provide if they were going to let me take the thing. If there is one thing you can be sure of in Israel is beurcracy and sometimes the system doesn't work as well as its supposed to. With this woman the question is under what visa she came. Was she coming as an olleh in which case she has to be jewish or was she coming on some kind of tempory resident visa which allows her to live and work in Israel but she does not get citizenship. If she came as an olleh mistake or not there are rules and she would have been considered to have broken those rules and she can't provide proof of jewishness

I'm Jewish, grand son of Shoah survivors and this country never recognized my Jewishness and questioned it because my father is not Jewish !!! It's been 3 years that I am residing here as a temporary resident but finally I am proud of it ! I don't need anybody to question my Jewishness and I don't need to be Israeli to feel more Jewish. All this is a non sense, allyah itself is a non sense. Nobody has the right to question one's Jewishness. Israel , it's time to wake up and live in a real democracy

This just happens to be a woman who is motivated, connected, and articulate. The others who suffer this just leave more quietly. One unspoken reason for the charedi conduct is to preserve what they imagine is the "purity" of their own communities. However, they can achieve this by maintaining an independent sefer yukhsin. Should any descendant of Ms. Rubin, for example, wish to marry into a Chasidic sect, at that point the hassles can begin, and be resolved. By research, or by gerus. Till then, such narrowly-educated, ghetto-favoring rabbis shouldn't have such sensitive jobs. Something else, where they can't do such harm. They're not trained to do much, but they're intelligent enough to do computer coding, say...

I see an ignorant person pimp the delusion that the American Revolution was 'Christian." Haym Solomon is a name not taught in America's Christian Academies, our 'religious right' schools. He was a member of the NY Sons of Liberty, and an associate of Robert Morris (look him up). When Washington needed the funds to finish off the Brits at Yorktown, he said 'Send for Haym Solomon." You got it. Could the French have managed to pay their troops in America without Haym Solomon? Probably. Could the Revolution survived without his ability at selling bonds? Who knows?

The Herzliya Rabbinate in observing "strict standards of Moses and Israel" should then be aware that maternal Jewish lineage was only introduced as a response to Roman occupation see "The History of God" by Karen Armstrong and other historical texts.

If it is established that Hilary's mother is Jewish, Hilary is Jewish. Jewish women cannot give birth to Gentile children, Gentile mothers cannot give birth to Jewish kids.

This is definitely confusing for someone who is brought up Jewish in the US and taught to love Israel and that you have the open choice to come to Israel and become a citizen there. No one ever talked about having documentation going back 4 generations, which I do not have.

I too am one of those people, Jewish on all sides for generations, who chose not be be married in Israel due to Orthodox zealotry. My conservative Rabbi in the US married me to my Israeli husband over 45 years ago. How sad that some things never change.

Obviously we are taken over by a bunch of relegious fanatics calling themeselves jews and strangling our life in this country. But until the silent majority rebels, why would they change their ways? Something dramatic has to happen, some fresh ideas are needed. Maybe we should all boycott 'official jews', or I dont know what, somebody smart should propose a way to shake this situation. Until we rebel, its our fault, we deserve this fate. This mafia would not survive a single day in a truly democratic country.

The Rabbinate is using taxpayers money to provide a service. In this case the service boils down to determining whether one is Jewish enough to qualify to have a Jewish life cycle event officially recognized. So I'm wondering two things; 1) Do native born Israelis also have to provide four generations worth of ketubot and birth and death certificates? Because a lot of native born Israelis will also have trouble with that once they hit the Holocaust generation in the family and 2) Are all these ketubot, birth and death certificates required in order to have a Jewish burial? Because either you're a Jew or you are not and if this is the standard of proof for proving one is a Jew in order to be married then it seems reasonable that the same standard should apply to keeping Jewish graveyards pure as the one being used to keep Jewish families pure Now if the answer to either of these is NO (.i.e if you are native born then you don't need four generations of multiple documents or if when you are buried you also dont), then why is tax money being used to provide a service which discriminates against some citizens (i.e olim getting married vs natives getting married, and olim getting married vs anyone getting buried.) As long as the law provides that the Rabinnate has the power to determine who is Jewish enough to qualify for officially recognized life cycle events, then it ought to be forced to apply the same standard to all citizens in all cases

As a Jew I am totally disgusted with this. First, did we not lose enogh Jewish lives in the Holocaust that we have o chase away more Jewsl As for documents proving 4 genertions of jewish mothers, how many of these hypocrytes have such documents, especially since things destroyed by the Holocaus. I purchased an item from a department store the was Garaunteed for Life. When i broke down I took it back and was asked for he original receipt. I did't have it but I did say It was bought on your credit card, would you not have a copy. The Answer::::We don't keep records that long or we would need a whole warehouse just for a paper trail....On THAT, I rest my case. GET RID of this organization or they will chase us away from Judaism.

Those that empower themselves to say who is a Jew will also have to pass before G-d on Judgement Day. A Jew knows in his/her heart and soul and does not need others to declare them a Jew!

This is embarrassing. These absurd tests to ascertain one's Jewish identity (as well as the unnecessary hoops that converts have to jump through) is NOT halacha, NOT zionism, and NOT smart politics. If the haredi stranglehold on religious matters in Israel does not end, Israel will cease to be a the national home for ALL Jews.

I dont know whether or not she is Jewish , but the fact that her great great uncle was a hard core zionist hardly proves her point at all. Being Jewish means converted by a religious rabbi in accordance with Jewish law. That is how we have survived all these years knowing who is a Jew and who is not. She should not be insulted but rather elated that we as Jews are so meticulous when it comes to our heritage!

Why get married through the Rabbinate in the first place? Just draw up a prenup through a lawyer and throw a party for your family and friends. You can have a chupah and all the rest of the traditions. Nothing in the Halacha requires a rabbi, just 2 witnesses and a ring. Open your eyes people, there are alternatives to the mullahs of religious fascism at the Rabbinate. Ignore this irrelevant institution and in one generation we'll have civil marriage for those who want it.

This whole article is an overblown stretch of truth . Only one side interviewed , no one , especially Haaretz is interested to learn the full story , it might interfere with their prejudged opinions .

I am a child of survivors , and have many friends in israel , not a single one ever had any such problems with the Rabbinate . No one had to prove four generation lineage , or show unavailable documents . There is more to this very shallow story that suits Haaretz 's agenda so well .

Israel, Do you want to keep existing as a country or destroy yourself, people don't always keep everything. the Israeli Rabbinate needs to wake-up and get real.

Are such a sham and an embarrassment to true Israel. Thanks for highlighting the hypocrisy of the Aliyah selection committee. Now that I think about it, their skills could have been used in the US election 2 years ago to help prove Obama's non citizenship.

I would have no problem because I learnt in a Haredi American yeshivah and was married by a well-known Haredi Rav, BUT if I had to produce four generations of Kesuvahs and birth and death certificates, at least two generations from pre-war Lithuania, I doubt that I could do so. Pre-Holocaust kesuvahs went up in smoke like their owners. There must be a better methods. Would any Poskim be prepared to suggest DNA as an alternative test?

can Israel practice what it preaches??? it is not the blood that makes one a devout Jew ... i heard many in Israel are atheists ...what a contradiction

1) Most Jews are secular.They can prove their 'identity' but no-one forces them how observant ritually they need to be.If a Jew with papers were to eat bacon,no-one can take away his identity or her identity.Any person who is Jewish and who wishes to 'marry a non Jew' does not or should not have to make a choice between 'winning and losing'If the partner wishes to convert,it is for a twofold reason.Firstly it is because they wish to have a Jewish identity with other Jews of similar persuasion,socially and culturally(not just observance-wise) Secondly and perhaps most importantly,they wish their children to be able to marry another Jew without all the obstructions. If this does not function. 1) their child cannot marry the 'love of their life'.....unless they forsake ALL Jewishness.The result is a lot of unhappy children through no fault of their own,and an exponential loss of the Jewish people. Exclusivity in today's world,may be desirable for the Haredi,or for those Rabbis who 'live off' the proceeds of conversion,but to society as a whole,they are LOSING Jews at a great rate of knots. If it were my children,my first responsibility is that they are happy WHOEVER THEY MARRY.But if they WISH to marry whoever they choose and STILL be part of Jewish life,religious or otherwise,EVERY HELP SHOULD BE GIVEN. We are destroying ourselves through these Rabbis who live in enclosed societies, out of touch with the rest of the world.They are entitled to live lives asa THEY wish , but not CONTROL everyone else. In USA with so much 'non ultra orthodox' choice of whom to marry, it may be not so bad, but in the UK and in Israel, they aree creating a lot of unhappiness.

In the case where proofs are unavailable, certain arrangements/exceptions may be. Besides whats the point of using, inciting though partially correct, expressions such as "still Jewish enough to be hated by most of the world"! Anyone who may hates you because of your ethnicity/religion is an ignorant. Even i "the enemy" dont!

Israel's worst enemies are within

An honest question. How do non-Jews, such as Christians, Muslims, Hindu's, etc, get married in Israel?

To a democrat, who believes in the seperation of religion and state, the Israeli laws are absurd. What if you would have to be a catholic to be able to marry in Italy? Wouldn't this lead to an outcry, because it would be ant-semitic? Israel still has a long way to go before it can call itself a real democracy.

Seems to me modern day Jews are only ones that take wives that are Jewish or is my Torah different then everyone elses? So the fact is this should not really matter. I can prvoide dozens of examples from the Tanach if you all wish.

Clearly the rabbi who would not marry her is NOT JEWISH and should be thrown out of Israel. Spit on the Rabbi.

I'm an orthodox Jew (knitted kippa family) and I am sickened by this. The power of the insane ultra haredi rabbinate must be stopped at once.They are killing Israel. Where is the govt of the country? Stop this madness now!

We need to find people who will organize a civil rights march like that of Martin Luther King - the Israeli public needs to wake up to the fact that this is a CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE not a religious one. We need to disband the Rabbinate from ANY political power and allow civil weddings in Israel.

5 And Moses commanded the children of Israel according to the word of the LORD,saying,The tribe of the sons of Joseph hath said well...6 This is the thing that the LORD doth command........: Let them marry to whome thay think best ;only to the tribe of their father shall thay marry. 7 So shall not the inheritance of the children of Israel be removed from tribe to tribe:for every one of the children of Israel shall keep himself to the inharitance of the tribe of his father....according to the word of the LORD

How many of the Jews exterminated by Hitler and his Nazis would have failed to satisfy the 'test' that Israel has chosen to establish as whom is a Jew? Hitler wanted to define a 'Jew' with as broad a net as possible so that no gene could be left after his genocide. Israel has chosen to define 'Jew' so closely that many of those Hitler murdered would not be considered a Jew by Israel today. Whom is guilty of the worst crime? Define 'Crime'? As one who leaves no gene existing? Or someone who refuses to recognize any affiliation except the most extreme?

I would seen that the rabbinate's suspicions are solid.

Hillary, my Israeli wife and I married in a civil marrige in California. We have spent our entire lives ignoring these idiots at the Rabanut and they have never been able to affect a single thing in our lives. You should do the same, and for the sport of it, do everything possible over the years to undermine any authority that they have; eventually change will come. These people are sick racist bastards and you should not let them get the best of you, or allow them to ruin your love of Israel.

This debate is getting tiresome.

Although I am Halachically Jewish, this kind of mishegoss is one reason why I decided years ago to convert to the Catholic Faith. Good riddance.

The rabbinical court is a greater threat to Israel than Hamas. Asking for certificates from a woman whose grandparents were in the Shoah is a disgrace. As the son of Holocaust survivors, and a person who has bought $300,000 in Israel bonds over the years, I find this story disgusting. Israel is already isolated from the world--its now endeavors to isolate itself from diaspora Jewry.

The rest of the world does not hate you because you are Jewish. Grow up. Jews in the United States have more personal freedom, more freedom to be Jewish in any way they please, more personal safety and security, and face less discrimination than they do in Israel, (in fact, almost none).

Time for rabbis to stop this evil pursuit. They operate as if Ruth didn´t exist. In her time there were no ketuvots nor a license to be an Israelite. It was enough to declare that you loved the God of Israel. Furthermore, there was no such thing as a "conversion" until rabbis invented it.

Some members of the Rabbinate there could do with sensitivity training

Too many Jews in israel? This may fix the problem. More Shariah please.

This is a problem that a relative of mine in the UK faced when she married a man who had been in hiding in Holland during the second world war. All ketubot had been destroyed. Consequently they got married through Reform and all her children have married out. I am Orthodox but the Rabbonim need to take a different approach of walking the line between heaven and earth, being faithful to Hashem whilst enabling people to live by the commandments not be destroyed by them. That is the mark of a good rav. Unfortunately the rabbis in teh rabbinut are not very skilled in this nor do they have any people skills. They turn people off Orthodox Judaism and this in my opinion makes them heretics.

I had to go through the same process at the Jerusalem rabbinate. Despite the fact that all my grand parents have lived in the holocaust, I have presented ketubah and other certificates. I have brought a testimony from an old lady who knew my grandmother from the getho. This annoying process took me 1 week, but to tell the truth the Jewish Agency's aliya availability exam took 4 month... I think this couple simply does not have the nerves to work themselves through this process. If they are Jews (halachically) then they will get what they want simply they shouldn't give up!

I know her from back home.

I got married in Israel 30 years ago, in Jerusalem no less. Having the same background (my parents were both Shoah survivors), letters testifying to my "Jewishness" was sufficient. How is this acceptable, and why did things change? It's so hard to get children to marry into the faith. Why would the process me this infuriating in our own home?

Talk about pretentious! The "holier than thou" attitude of the orthodox divides Judaism better than any attack by it's enemies. Israel's and Judaism's enemies are laughing and cheering every time they read about this and other similar battles. The saddest part of this ongoing issue within Judaism, is that with Israel becoming the Jewish version of a "stan" in the Moslem world, and its "reason d'etre" - i.e. to protect and allow Jews from anywhere in the world to seek refuge, is gravely diminished. Why aren't all of the "non-observant" Israelis, who make up of the majority of Jewish Israelis, protesting in the streets? They pay their hard earned money to support an elitist bunch of non-army serving, money grabbing, ecnomic debilitating (how many Jews have left the state or are unwilling to emigrate because of this farce), pompous Rabbis. I guess, as with everyone including the orthodox, money talks. Since those "non-observant" Jews inside Israel appear to be unwilling or incapable of sending the message, it is incumbent on the majority of Jews in the galut to take up the cause. I would sooner, as a non-orthodox Jew, support my local B'nai Brith or Jewish Federation before supporting the state of Israelistan.

as to why they refused her. It would seem that if she were truly Jewish, some records of her grandparents being gassed in concentration camps would be available to her. Furthermore, her refusal to cooperate seems to show that something is amiss. The bureaucracy in Israel can be frustrating, but if one works with the system it is possible to find a resolution. The burden of proof lay on Hilary Rubin's shoulders.... If she cant prove it, I personally would argue that she isnt a Jew.

G-d will one day return us all to the promised land but until then I will stay in the dispora happy and content until that day comes.

What nonsense is this ? If she wants to marry here.let her. Of course she is a fine Jewess. Only on the basis of her beauty,she's welcome to come,live,& marry in Israel. Are some Rabbi's daughters Jealous ?

Fifty years ago all that was required was to produce a given number or witnesses to attest to one's being Jewish and single. All ours gave credible declarations, except for one naive fellow who declared: "I feel it...". He was sent home, and had to be replaced...

it was widely presumed to have been a vieled critique of Communism. Obviously not, it was all about Israel, where it now appears that some Jews are more equal than others.

hahaha extreme racism ur not jewish enough lol

As an olah chadasha, I also don't have these kind of documents, yet I still managed to have a Jewish wedding in Israel. I had a letter from a chabad rabbi as well, and he based it on the plot numbers of the Jewish cemetery of my maternal grandparents and the birth certificates of my mom and myself that connected me to them, since my mom lost her ketuba. Then, the rabbi sent me to the official rabbinut rabbi of Washington, DC, who accepted the word of this chabad rabbi because he was a friend of his. Then the Netanya Rabbinut was forced to accept it. Try doing it from the US! Trust me, it is easier that way! Best of luck fixing this.

It seems to me that there are in addition to Ahmadinejad people who know nothing about WWI, WWII and holocaust and unfortunately that is Chief Rabbinate in Israel. In their thinking obviously no jews were killed in the holocaust and jewish families lived happily keeping all their documents in good safe. They have not four generations proof of anybody killed in the holocaust that he/she was a jew How can they determine that anybody who was killed was a jew. Based on their requiments of proof no jew was killed. During all the calamities in Europe only jews had had all their documents nicely stored in safe place and easily obtainable to Rabbies who up today have not been able to publish what is required. It sounds to me like a fight against HaShem who is now causing all the jews from all the countries to move to Israel, but with man made rules Rabbies fight against it. That the rules are made by man can be seen from number of different denominations of Rabbies all teaching differently the one and only truth.

Didn't Moses marry a gentile?

That is all they want. That is how you make something Kosher in Israel.

And thank you Shas and yehadut hatorah!

Every time I read articles like this, I realize just how wise the founding fathers of the United States were when they insisted on the separation of church and state. It's too bad Israel's founding fathers weren't so wise; we're now paying the price for their lack of foresight.

Israel has 100,000 illegal Arabs and thousands of African Moslems coming into Israel and the Jewish girl is forced to leave the country to get married. Something is very wrong here.

For anyone who thinks blackmail is a new tactic of the Orthodox Rabbinate, my story from 28 years ago proves them wrong. My then fiancée, an Israeli Jewess born in Baghdad who emigrated at age 1 and I (who immigrated in 1969 at age 19) were the victims of attempted blackmail by a Rabbinate employee. My lady wanted a particular catering service (Kasher, authorized by the Rabbinate), so we found a hall without catering linked as a package deal (the Ramat-Gan WIZO club, if anyone wants to know). The Rabbinate official in charge of our file refused to approve it unless we convinced WIZO to sign an exclusive contract for that hall with a caterer that he recommended. My fiancée and I refused and took this all the way up the Rabbinate's chain of command. It was not until we sent an official, registered letter of protest to the Minister of Religious Affairs, with copies other government officials, including the PM of the time, Menachem Begin and to all the newspapers, that the Rabbinate's approval was given. It turned out that the original blackmailer was trying to get a permanent catering deal for a relative, but that didn't stop the rest of the Rabbinate in Ramat-Gan from supporting him until the government got involved at the ministerial level. I have been a strong supporter of the civil marriage option ever since. With the option of civil marriage, the Rabbinate will lose its power to blackmail seculars or any other non-Orthodox into any outrageous actions they choose. I have no doubt that if an Orthodox couple had come to the Ramat-Gan Rabbinate with the same request we did, it would have been granted without delay. The system is rotten and needs change. Civil marriage NOW!

So...reading the comments am I led to believe that a civil marriage cannot occur in Israel?...how about a marriage between a jew and an Athiest..?? If Israel cannot recognise basic humanity of the 21st century but has its head stuck so far up its tuchers then most of the diaspora are right in not wanting attachment. A great percentage og my jewish peers have married out and are not sorry...their marriage is between themselves and not some Israeli beaurocrat.

First of all anyone wanting to mary, divorce, etc, in Israel MUST do what needs to be done. And that is to go to some top Rabbi in America, not in Israel, (I went to Lubavitcher in NJ) and he KNOWS what is required in Israel and provides it and that's all ! Everybody knows what happened in the Holocaust, etc, but Israeli rabbis DON'T First of all anyone wanting to mary, divorce, etc, in Israel MUST do what needs to be done. And that is to go to some top Rabbi in America, not in Israel, (I went to Lubavitcher in NJ) and he KNOWS what is required in Israel and provides it and that's all ! Everybody knows what happened in the Holocaust, etc, but Israeli rabbis DON'T know somebody from abroad. They need SOME CONFIRMATION from somebody they TRUST. So, this way, you get married, and YOUR CHILDREN WILL GET MARRIED ! Everybody is happy. I was, and I am. Now what did this girl do? Brag she is the niece of Sokolow? To Haredis???....... Alternatively change the law.........

All Hilary had to do is go to the Beth Din, one visit and Hilary snubbed them. Hello.........!!! That in itself rings a red light. I would also like to point out that although there are no death certificates of those who perished in the Nazi Death Camps, the Germans carefully and deligently documented EVERY person that went in them which has now been computerized and available to the public. If Hilary's mother cares about her daughter's future then the mother could always invest in a trip to Israel and visit the Beth Din in Jerusalem herself. If the mother can't afford it then the Beth Din can set up an appt with their selected Beth Din in the USA. Problem solved. So how about it Hilary????

Why are they allowed to do this?? Because we let them!! Is it not time to oust this disgusting framework & fix this?? Either that or just pay them more... always seems to work!!

Time for a new Jesus Christ to head revolution.

doomed to corruption and worse. end it today.

While Christianity and Islam are spreading like wildfire throughout the world, we're turning our own Jews away..... rediculous!!!

If you pay them under the table they will do it. Sorry you had to go through this primitive way of doing things. Enjoy your wedding abroad. Your better off not being married by a Rabbi here. A load of men who creat rules that are certainly not given by the Alimighty.

These men of righteousness, the ones so concerns with "the law of Moses and Israel" would kosherise Ms. Rubin in an instatn and dance at her wedding if they were schmered for a quarter million shekels. That's their real "law".

The Rabbis who made this law of having to produce the 4 ketubat, 4 marriage and birth and death certificates of grandparents of Jewish ancestors should themselves first of all be called to bring forth their own proof of Jewishness. I bet most of them do not have the relevent documents.

Why would anyone who was not Jewish, want to marry in Israel? I suggest Las Vegas. You will not need to prove your Jewish to three generations back and you will be appreciated for the money you spend in Las Vegas. Israel is just digging a deeper whole within the Jewish community throughout the world. Israel will pay a big price for this in the near future.

going back 4 generations.. did this idiots think that the olim from the Arab lands had birth certificates, many do not know the exact date of their birth, or the European Jews that survived the holocaust were preoccupied with birth certificates. For that matter 100 years ago many people had no birth certificates. What will they come up next? When will the majority of Israelis will have enough of the ultra orthodox and the left?

Lack of civil marriage in Israel is a disgrace. To be honest, I don't care who rabbinate considers Jewish. We both had all the right papers, I just couldn't stand dealing with these parasites. Cyprus was wonderful, but I would still prefer to be able to get married in my own country.

thank g-d, I will not need to show it to the Rebe should I decide to marry again. Israel is really verrry strange. Why can it and its institutions not behave like a normal country?

you guys claiming it's just contrived haven't got much of a case. there seem to be enough reports of similar stories, backed by religious figures such as rabbi melchior (former cabinet minister) in haaretz yesterday /the day before. furthermore, why would hillary rubin, herself an observant jew, agree to this exposure if it wasn't verifiable & true?

Jews are very happy wherever they are - No need to go to Israel and go through all this torture - Who are they anyway to question the jewishness of anybody for that matter - who gave them the right to decide that they are more jewish than me.

unbelievable, Israel where are you going

Rest Assured if Ms. Rubin were to offere these rabbis a quarter a million shekels, she would be kosherised instantly. That's bottom line.- the bottom line.

Better marry in Cyprus than in this crazy country. This will avoid any "aguna" problems in case of a divorce. Of course, this should not happen - but then, one never knows.....

Don't worry Hillary, Kafka (out of whose books these disgusting bureaucrats seem to have come out from) wouldn't have passed their standards either. But we'd much rather belong to his tribe than theirs.

I got married in Israel 24 years ago. It was a nightmare then it seems like a nightmare now It creates dishonesty I am orthodox and it was bad

This is precisely the kind of nightmare scenario that will befall thousands of descendants of Shoah survivors should they decide to live and marry in Israel. Four generations worth of documents? Are they serious? How many of us have family pictures, heirlooms, books from our European survivor parents? They were lucky to get out alive, and if they returned to their homes, they often found all their possessions were stolen by their neighbors, not to be returned. I have ofen said the same thing: My parents siblings and parents were Jewish enough to be killed by Hitler, but in Israel I wouldn't be Jewish enough for the Rabbinate. What a tragic state of affairs. This just shows how ludicrous that institution has become. They are using halacha like a battering ram and not the way it's supposed to be used. The government of Israel should wipe the slate clean with this bunch of ridiculous, out-of-touch rabbis and find humane, sympathetic rabbis (like the ones from Tzohar) to replace them. Which brings me to question: Why didn't Rubin and her fiance get married by a Tzohar rabbi?

The Law of Return sounds great in theory -- allow all Jews a safe haven! -- but it's deeply problematic in practice because it gives those who decide too much power without a lot of accountability. It's a form of putting a stumbling block in front of the blind, actually, akin to leaving cash unattended in plain sight. If they say no, you're not Jewish, they or their cronies stand to gain quite a not of cash from your conversion. If they say yes however, they gain nothing. It would take an extraordinary individual to always remain absolutely upright in making this decision, especially when being strict has the appearance of piety. And the dual nature of Jewish identity makes it easy to object: converted? It wasn't strict enough. Not converted? Your mother wasn't Jewish. Mother is Jewish? Your grandmother wasn't. Grandmother was Jewish? Your great-grandmother then. All Jewish? Well then this spelling error in the Ketuba invalidates it.

It took me a year to convince the Rabbinute that I was Jewish enough for aliyah, although I had all the necessary ketubot etc. After seven years of living with this nonsense, I sadly went back to America. Jews, Israelis, wake up! Fanaticism left and right has turned the promised land into a dystopia!

what would our grandparents who perished in the holocaust for being Jewish feel towards this state of Israel where the same process is repeating itself ? Just that here we have a choice .......... discrimination against Palestinians, against Israeli Arabs, against Beduins, against Third Nationality foreign Workers, agains African Refugees? against gays? newest against reform, conservative Jews who cannot shwo documents proving 4 generations of "pure blood". SHAME ON US!! I hope the Israeli government wakes up before it is too late. Soon it is gong to be a totally fundamentalist Jewish State, huge steps are leading to it.

The Israeli rabbinate give everyone a bad name. How silly.

Religious vs Zionist. Read how the protagonists are being introduced... Good vs Evil and it all serves one purpose. Advance a political agenda at a story that would not make the news anywhere in the world. All the posts are bigoted and Haaretz is an accomplice. Censor do you agree?

i was raised and still am orthdox i would have a hard time proofing my lineage 4 generations back see my grandparents left their katobah at aushwitz

... in my country. But not in Israel? It seems something doesn't quite add up here....

They know she will not be able to provide the documentation they asked for; they would then require her to go through a 'conversion'. This is where the money is made. Some in the rabbinate in Israel extort money from those wanting to convert. This was the case with my sister-in-law who moved to Israel and wanted an orthodox conversion. Those she met with first demanded a great deal of personal financial information (about her and her family) and then said she would have to pay them $10,000 for her conversion. She ended up coming back to the U.S. for her orthodox conversion.

It's time the rabbis involved inn this blatant discrimination against Jews woke up to the impression this makes on non-Jews. I'm a non-Jewish pro-Israel (and pro-Jewish) activist. This horrifies me, because it makes my hasbara work much harder. How can I proclaim Israel as a bastion for human rights and religious freedom if Israel permits such obscene treatment of sincere Jews and Holocaust survivors' children? That anyone should have shrugged his shoulders and said that the loss of ketubot in the Holocaust is none of his business sends a shudder through me. Anti-Israel activists who learn of this will, rightly, say that, if Israeli rabbis can treat Jews this shabbily, what sort of discrimination do they inflict on Arabs. What can I say? I want Israel to survive, but I fear it will not so long as these pains in the neck interfere in basic civil matters. How many people making aliyah have to present 4 generations' worth of ketubot?

Doug, this is not a Reform/Conservative/Orthodox thing. If Hillary Rubin were Orthodox, she still could not provide the ketubah of a grandparent who was murdered by the Nazis. Exactly, whom does it benefit to torture her this way?

where teh corrupt disrupt everyones lives to ensure no-one has eth time or patience to question their corruptness. after tehy rebuild the temple then maybe it'll be a rabinical court, until then its just a bunch of parasites living off our charity(which is stolen at source). if they can prove 4 generations of papers what are they doing here as tehy obviously were ok in their former homes, black hats should leave true Israeli alone or get jobs and shut up.

Moses married the daughter of a Midianite priest. King David's grandmother was a Moabite. The strict standards the Rabbis refer to were nothing to do with Moses. More like the standards that Ezra tried to impose on the population of Judah a thousand years after the supposed time of Moses. That this was never a so called "Law of Moses" can be demonstrated by the Torah's own recollection of King Solomon's 300 wives, most of whom were non Israelite. Did David and Solomon forget to read their 'Law of Moses'?!

Wow, I can't believe this chain of events. This is silly. You should come to the US to get married, and get an official conversion from any type of Rabbi here in the US. Problem solved, although Israel doesn't get the revenue from the taxes on the guests, and the Israel businesses lose out. Then go back to Israel to live, and change this silliness so the next person who is in a similar situation, and is clearly, and wants to be Jewish, doesn't have the same problems! Good Luck!

Here we go again! More middle-eastern theology stuck in the mid ages. When will they learn we live in the 21st century? When will they learn that abandoning Jews who are not orthodox is driving the secular away? When will they learn that they are one of the smallest populations of any religion and turning off the majority of us secular Jews is counter productive to the survival of Israel. If we continue down this road, Israel will become one huge slum as Jerusalem has already become. When will they learn that to be Godly is to be tolerant, nonjudgmental with a helping hand to all mankind. Though I don't follow all the orthodox rituals, I consider myself much more holy than these so-called "admirable" Rabbi's who condone violence, discrimination and have such closed minds that their opinion is the only opinion. Sure hope the majority can hold out before this neanderthal thinking puts Israel in the same oppressed league of other Arab states. The Jewish faith deserves better!

Israel cannot afford this kind of religious biggotry. The State should not be a religious dictatorship run by ultra fanatic schyzophrenic "rabbis"...They are repeating the outrages of the inquisition and the nazis,that also demanded 4 generations of "pure blood"

its time get this talibans send to iran or afganistan - rabinat distroing steat of israel

They are such a minority in the Diaspora as to be minimally reflective of Jewish life. Why are they calling the shots? What credibility do they have as representative of Judaism?

And yet my marriage was officiated by the chief Scribe of the Eda Haredit. When my grandchildren were born in Israel, my son had to provide much more documentation at the U.S. Consulate to prove that they were entitled to U.S. citizenship. So there is something missing from this "rabbinate horror" story.

This young lady knows that she is entitled to her day in court. Instead of fighting for her rights, she is ready to just give up and leave the country. The government of every country has bureaucracy, and citizens must deal with them. She is fortunate that she is entitled to present her case in a fair and impartial court and in a free and democratic society.

This is another case of irrational stupidty by authorities in Israel. How insulting to deny this woman the option to marry in Israel. Who the heck has ketubot going back 4 generations? Never heard of anything so ridiculous - well except that Arab charged with rape by deception...that is even more ridiculous. What is wrong with Israel these days? {shudder}

Warren #74 the fact that you and others are making excuses for this crime is terrible. How can a country who says it's a victim of religious prejudice re-enact this self-same prejudice against its own kind? This isn't only about religious practice. This is about a group of morally derelict so-called "religious people" holding the whole of the Jewish people to ransom. Once more we in the Diaspora will pay dearly for the Jewish elitism/racism that allows this to happen, and whenever we have the courage to disown it, and these people - we are called "self-haters" by those whose only interest is in enabling this power. To what level must we be shamed in the eyes of the world until we do Teshuva and become the example to people G-d intended us to be?

this is a wake up regarding the bankruptcy of spiritual and ethical Jewish traditional religion. North American Jews have long turned a blind eye to the machinations of the Orthodox authorities in Israel. The belief that Israel is a "Jewish" democracy is dubious at best. It is time that non traditional Jews in Israel and the world at-large protested to the Israeli government

if the people here so rightly outraged by this narrow-minded tribalism feel much, if any, outrage when this question of "not being jewish" has an impact on non-jews in israel (or elsewhere)?

To "Frank" Ms Rubin's life and identity is at stake. Don't tell her to "relax", and definitely don't refer to her insultingly as "girl". This issue of "verification" of one's lineage is not from the Talmud, or the Shulchan Arech; it is not "by the book". The fact is, 99.9% of Jews could never provide definitive proof of a 'pure' Jewish lineage (including the Rabbis in question). A Jew, born to Jewish parents, who observes Shabbat and Kashruth, has to consider conversion simply as a means of getting her papers in order. That speaks for itself - something is very wrong.

true he's an interested party-budget wise.but he is hardly the main culprit.his monopoly was decreed by israel some 60 years ago.the solution is plain and simple-a parallel civil juristic system,and choice.but,many a time in history,the plain and simple is disregarded,for considerations we can only vaguely guess at.

It's all about control , stupid ,...

The religious have done nothing wrong. They have kept Jewish Law for 3500 years. The reform and conservative movement came along and changed the rules of the game. They have messed up the whole lineage. They have made the unkosher now kosher and the impure, pure so the religious have no recourse but to make sure the lineage is straight and not crooked. Unfortunately the reform and conservative leadership have misled millions of jews and the results of their actions are now being felt. The Knesset from thebeginning, agreed that the religious can run the marriage and divorce here. You want real weddings or Las vegas style? The only ones to blame are the leaders who have led the masses astray. The religious are trying to make sure their is a Jewish People in 30 years whereas the Reform and conservative movement are trying to erase us and make a cultural Israeli. They decimated the American Scene and now they want to try to do it to the Jews living here. Sorry, It wont happen here. Move to Uganda and make a Reform/conservative state there. Oh, I forgot; the conservative meovement doesnt accept reform conversions. How unpluralistic of them!

The God I serve never, EVER wants a man to mediate His relationships. Especially with arrogance and importance... white-washed tombs.

according to the bible,moses married zipporah,daughter of jethro,also known as reuEL,high priest and prince of the midianites.(note analogy to abraham and malkitsedek,priest of EL elyon(supreme/highest,king of SHALEM). israel is the patriarch jacob,who marrie two aramaites,both matriarchs,and members of his family.so much for the law of moses themselves,if you believe in the historicity of the bible.if you believe in other jewish jurisprudence,you know that rabbinical law cannot annul torah law.it can adapt,or put a proviso,in monetary matters only.

That is the same fear I also have. My great great grandparents on my grandmothers side who came from eastern europe at the time of the polgroms to south america, changed their names and identity with fear of persecution, my great grandmother married a portuguese jew without a ketuba either, my grandparents eloped after living in sin for years, because my grandfather was the youngest and per our traditions the oldest one have to get married friend. So really how can I prove jewishness, with persecution worldwide and strict laws.

We're seeing with this and the proposed conversion bill that Judaism in Israel and in the Diaspora are on different tracks. In time there will be fundamentalist Judaism in Israel; liberal Judaism in the Diaspora. This does not bode well either for immigration from the Diaspora into Israel or for any sense of affinity between the Jews of one with the Jews of another. We are unfortunately witnessing a historic divorce.

No matter what documents you have it is not enough. So we left ISrael , got married back home. The state does not get eh benefit of us being tehre. Such power concentrated in teh hands of so few with such long reaching ramifications. Like the Mafia

Actually they wanted her family tree traced back to Har Sinai. You know there is something fishy about this story, yet you publish it to stir hate. come on she just needs to prove he mother is jewish case closed. It seems she cannot other than through conservative ministers, and I guess the Herzliya Rabbinate does not give much credence to Chabad. If her mother is Jewish I thing it would not be too difficult to get to the tuth. All this gal did is cause needless hatred with the help of your famous anti religious paper.

When I married in Israel I had to show proof that I was born of a Jewish mother and grandmother and letters from our rabbi (Reform) were accepted by the Tzfat Rabbinate. What happened?

I don't like the rabbinical politburo and their control over these matters. However I think there must be a specific reason they are denying Hillary the right to marry in Israel, and it was not mentioned in the article.

Just because her parents are divorced, why is it difficult for Hilary to produce her mother's marriage certificate? I have a strong feeling Hilary's mother was not born Jewish. By looking at her photo, she looks more Saxon with very little semetic features. Hilary seems to be riding more on her father's family coat tails; this I won't dispute but the mother I would dispute. There IS more to this story than meets the eye and even I can spot it. Come on Hilary, what is your mother hiding, what are you hiding? Fess up so this can be fixed for the sake of your Jewish boyfriend and his family.

the Judaism and most of other religions. In Christianity or Islam you only need to want to be one of its member. Religion is made for people, that means for every human being. Not depending what their ancestors believed in or originate from. Everything else is religious racism.

Actually, the rabbis are barking up the wrong Tree. According to the Torah, Israelite identity follows the father's family, not the mother's (simply read Bamidbar).

look up ancient jewish customs!! you dont need a rabbi !!!

So why shouldn't she? Who is to decide her Jewishness? And even if she was not she is entitled to marry right?

i dont have the ketoubah of my mother or my grandmother or any kitoubah of my family . yet i find disgasting that the rabbis are making life so difficult for our children! it is allright to support israel spiritually and financialy but when it comes to stupit religious laws we are still live in the middleages! what is the difference between us and the talibans? I am really very very angry and dissapointed!

The Torah talks about Miriam's attack on Moses's marriage. I doubt Israeli rabbinical courts would have recognized that marriage too.

Let's make life easier for Jews in Israel!

What happened to the Jewish people? Why we allow a group of bearded fanatics to define us? Who made them judges of anyone's belonging to the Jewish people? Haredim must be declared non Jewish foreign cult with the roots in Amalek .

Despite what this article and some of the comments imply, the Rabbinate didn't say she was not jewish enough, they asked for proof of Jewishness. Someone whose mother is married to a non-Jew has serious aspersions as to her jewishness. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. In such a case, merely claiming to be a Jew does not make one Jewish. Neither does having grandparents who were Holocaust survivors. Neither does having prominent Zionist relatives (Herzl had non-Jewish grandchildren). A Conservative get [bill of divorce] or a declaration by a Conservative rabbi, is not Halachically recognized. If one does not wish to follow halacha, that is a personal choice. But that does not mean that those who do are racists.

Don`t tell this story of rabbinate, witnesses Bet Din, Cyprus, Rabbinate and mariage in the States by some conservative rabbi to the secular europeans! just don't! Because they will go like "All these folks in the Middle East are going nuts". Some things you better dont tell the secular europeans! Having said that, I'd like to add one more thing: MAZEL TOV!

Moses married the daughter of a Midianite priest. King David's grandmother was a Moabite. The strict standards the Rabbis refer to were nothing to do with Moses. More like the standards that Ezra tried to impose on the population of Judah a thousand years after the supposed time of Moses. That this was never a so called "Law of Moses" can be demonstrated by the torah's own recollection of King Solomon's 300 wives, most of whom were non Israelite. Did David and Solomon forget to read their 'Law of Moses'?!

Does Hilary and her yes-people really think they're the only grandchildren of holocaust survivors who had lost their ketuba? And do they really think that none of them managed to get married in Israel? We all know that the rabbanut can make things difficult in Israel, but perhaps she needed to perservere a little, just like other people did? And if there's blame to be apportioned for the situation, reserve some for the secular political parties (Labor in particular) who made deals with the Chareidi parties that gave them control of the Chief Rabbinate.

- one that says "you're welcome to be a citizen of this state" but "you may not be able to marry /to be buried here". it's high time the rabbis got off their high horse, deciding over people's lives like a jewish version of the inquisition. there's no reason why israelis should have to continue living under this yoke, succombing to this state of affairs. get a secular system where the rabbis' jurisdiction is limitied to the level of congregations only, which people may /may not be members of & otherwise are free from having anything to do with if they so choose..

But it sure makes the corrupt rabbinate feel important though. What they make couples go through in Israel is humuliating. May civil marriage come to Israel soon (although the Cypriots won't like that).

The power of the orthodox rabbinate must be smashed and freedom restored for all Jews of whatever background. Secular Israelis make up 80% of the population and it is time for us to vote for a govt that will not kiss the tuchas of these rabbis and their corrupt henchmen. We need civil marriage and divorce and we need to tell the rabid rabbinate to shove it.

in some country, around 60 years ago, let us call it X, people were requested to prove the exact opposite, people were asked to document and prove that no-one in their family, 4 generations backwards was jewish or married with anyone who can be related to someone jewish. Looks like the history repeats itself...

The Jewishness test sure seems like an attempt to twist religion into race.

(... and they do not like the Zionists, who not exactly followers of neturei carta)

Hang in there Hillary - the forces behind the theocracy casuing this absurd situation will lose their power one day in our lifetime and in the meanwhile no one who matters will consider you or your children non jew or non israeli. One "less than haredi "american making aliya is worth countless haredim parasites and you have to believe things will change. Fight it in the courts and consider a bribe- i hear 50,000 IS is the going rate, dont accept but tell the newspaper the name of the rabbi who considered it. Yehiye tov !!