Senior Shin Bet official: Hamas completely lost Gaza war

"Freedom fighters target military opponents, not civilians, as they did in Sderot" By your reasoning, then, the IDF are terrorists, because of the hundreds of women and children they killed in Gaza? Sound just about right...

Freedom fighters target military opponents, not civilians, as they did in Sderot

Get your facts right.

Yes I can understand that you would like to grab Israel again to a similar type of confrontation with similar results. The problem is that neither Hammas nor Hizabalah are ready for another round, and probably will never be. Israel has succesfully put a tag, that both Hizabalah and Hammas do not want to pay. In short they are neutralized. Hammas does no wield control over all the palestinians, so it does not unify forces, but only divides, and Hizabalah is trapped in Lebanese politics. Moreover, if H. and H. dare to lunch a new round, Israel will react even harder, and despite Goldstone's report the "world" wont utter a word.

The answer to who won and who lost Cast Lead depends on your definitions. If for you winning is killing more than you loose, Israel won hands down. If you say winning is achieving your stated goals, well, last month there was an ad running on this site using the number of rockets since Cast Lead to drum up support for Sderot, which would imply you lost. If you say winning is gaining more territory, well, wait and see what the results are in the announced Palestinian election. If you say winning is coming out of it in a better position than when you went in, three words: Goldstone, Turkey, Boycott And, most people define war as more than a single operation. Until there is peace, most people will see the war as continuing. (Oh, and if you'd asked them in July 1976, the South African security forces would have said they 'won' at Soweto)

Israel lost the media war and the Goldstone report is causing merry hell also,what a victory.

Hamas was weakend,but they did not lose the war because they stood their ground and they did not surrender.On the other hand Israel did not win since they did not achieve their millitary objectives,which was the release of Shalit and the rocket attacks.

Considered a 'war'? What goals did Hamas have when Israel attacked indiscriminately? What possible outcome were the Palestinians of Gaza hoping to achieve by having white phos rained upon them? Were they thinking that slings and stones would take down the F-16's and Apache gunships? Did they think the toy rockets were a match for the hellfires?

"People in Sderot don`t really care what you think, Mark Lincoln.." paraclete The reality, advocate is that in October 2008 only 1 rocket was launched against Israel. So far in October 2009 only 1 rocket attack was mounted against israel. The reality denies your implicit argument paraclete. Your advocacy is an appeal to emotion devoid of factual support. p.s. Hamas is still in charge in Gaza. Islamic Jihad is complaining about Hamas stopping their attempts to launch rockets at Israel. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1120028.html You push your twaddle, I prefer facts.

Mars?? A feeble response at best,Axel..you should have left that one alone,rather than sounding foolish.

You fire missiles into my back yard & I'm going to make it stop. What military objective did they have to lob a few missiles at Israeli farmers? Mariapalestina; quote "Hamas is not allowed" to have weapons. ANYBODY on any side believe that?

As A citizen we all must demand Israel be charged with crimes against humanity. We cant let Armies continue using civilians to there advantage while never actually protecting citizens. Armies it seems protect, guard and defend property of the government not it's citizens. Looks like we only get the bill in the end.

Hamas lost militarily and so we are getting a Hamas propaganda war in response. Since the Palestinians lost militarily, they are compelled to re-fight the war in the court of public opinion. However, this war also cost Hamas the support of the people of Gaza. Hamas currently maintains control trhough Mafia like tactics.

indeed one has sympathy for all those traumatized children. There are a lot more dead ones in Gaza though not to mentioned the countless orphaned traumatized and maimed ones..

years was not destructive enough for Israel ? The terrorized south , with all those traumatized children was not destructive in your understanding ? And the worst happened after the Israeli pullout from Gaza . It will not be repeated any more with impunity , unless Palis will want to be punished severely . You have a very warped outlook on the ME .

In that case, we don't have any real disagreement as to what Israel should do in the future. You obviously think Israel accomplished something positive with 'Cast Lead.' So it follows that you think she should carry out such an action again. I, also, will be happy to see Israel carry out more actions with similar effects. In fact, if I could only somehow cause Israel to do so, I would. Preferably some variant that didn't involve the slaughter of one thousand-plus innocents, of course, but something with the same consequences otherwise.

You've got it backwards. Force is not somehow justified or ruled out by the virtues of one's opponent, but simply by its utility. Claims to the contrary notwithstanding, Israel's use of force gained her nothing in 'Cast Lead' and cost her a great deal. It was a self-destructive act.

Fighting against overwhelming odds, Hamas bent but did not break. Did the author honestly believe that a beseiged Hamas that has to smuggle the food it eats through underground tunnels can stand up to the might of an army that employed all the weapons at its arsenal. Its air, sea and ground assault failed to achieve its objective of either toppling Hamas from power or even stopping the firing of the rockets into Israel. Victory is measured by achieving objectives not by the amount of damage inflicted upon civilians and infrastructure. If one considers the international outrage and the war crimes charges, Israel is worst off today than it ever was before its so called "victory".

This wasn't a war, this was a slaughter!

They might have beaten a population of 1.5 million half starved denied medcines and the majority of them children under the age of 16 militarily in one of the most crowded places on Earth. But the International Community saw on the Internet and on their television screens the manner of this victory. Hence the ever growing calls to see Israelis stood next to Radovan Karadicz in The Hague. If that is a victory for Israel, Turkish/Israeli relations have never been better.

"If hamas REALLY did win" No one ever suggested that Hamas could win against the IDF, so what's your point? Your statement that Israel "scored clear points in the world opinion" sounds rather bizarre - but perhaps you are wrting from planet Mars, and god knows what the Mars media reported ...

Just like GEORGE THE II Bush, Hamas will NEVER admit a mistake nor an error. Just keep'em sacrificing "for the cause".

"If hamas REALLY did win, why haven`t we seen any hamas rocket fire anymore?" You didn't see any Hamas rocket fire in the nearly five months before the Israelis killed the cease-fire. Between June 19th and Nov 4th (when Israel broke the ceasefire) only fifteen (15) Qassam rockets hit Israel, none of them launched by Hamas. See the oleaginous Mark Regev's confirmation of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=zfFMZ7Y-s_c&feature=related However, the are still a few non-Hamas rockets landing harmlessly every week or so, just as before Cast Lead. "the world knows that Israel could have turned Gaza into Sahara within minutes if they wanted to, but didn`t!" You really think they deserve credit for not committing genocide?

"The raid in early November of which you speak was to destroy a tunnel being constructed by Hamas into Israel. A clear truce violation. Hamas was caught red-handed." Prophet Clear? Utter garbage... Hamas, **according to Israel** were also supposed to stop smuggling weapons. Yet Hamas **never** said they would cease these activities regardless of Israeli attempts to impose their own conditions, unilaterally for the ceasefire. After all, would Israel agree to stop manufacturing arms during a ceasfire! Hamas also conditioned the ceasefire on the lifting of the economic siege. Another unilateral condition. This Israel refused to do, although they had indicated they would ease restrictions. In any case they hardly did anything to lift the economic siege. The only aspect accepted by both sides was that Israel would refrain from operations in Gaza whilst Hamas refrained from rocket fire. Even more revealing was that Israel began a meticulous plan to strike Gaza even whilst negotiations for the ceasefire were ongoing. Making plain their intention to go in to Gaza at a propitious time. The gap between US election and Obama's innaug' was a crucial opportunity. The Nov 4th incursion set everything up nicely with the added benefit of an Israeli election to stir up the electorates juices. Still Hamas offered a longer term ceasefire in return for the lifting of the siege. This would have spoiled Israels party, so was of course brushed aside. Israel chose war and anarchy for Gaza rather than reconciliation and progress. They committed the ultimate crime. They should be made to pay a high price.

1,500,000 people in the most crowded place on earth. Throw a rock and a civilian will be hit. Bombing such a place will kill civilians to show them that they elected the wrong people. Hamas is probably stronger, world wide, than before. Israel has a choice become a fortress or join the neighborhood.

options are not in sight in general , but with Islamically brainwashed terrorists often this is the only option . And it is not only the Palis , every other place in the world , Philippine , China , Pakistan , Afghanistan , Indonesia , Iraq.....you going to see the same picture . It comes from the same manual .

In any future conflicts Israel will have to impose the high enough punishment on terrorists so it will not pay for them next time to repeat their adventures . And the cost for terrorists must be high because we are not dealing with rational adversary . Culturally and religiously brainwashed fatalists can not be stopped otherwise . The question of proportion is not a question at all here .

"You don`t REALLY believe that what Israel is doing is bombing civilians?" We saw the white phosphorous falling on civilians. We saw the dead and dying children. We saw the ruined houses. The world saw it all. You people can no longer expect anyone to believe your lies.

WAR IS HELL. If the Palestinians really cared about their people, they wouldn't keep starting them and seek avenues to peace. qassams and grads fired daily at civilians is NOT peace negotiations!

i was moived to see hamas leaders come out with white flags and surrender to the israeli victors. it was amazing to see all the tanks, aircraft and artillary that the idf captured and destroyed. also the thousands of prisoners of war. what a victory! oh i forgot the whole world congratulated and celebrated the amazing idf victory. keep it up barak!!!

Let me understand this.A war between a force of 187k active personnel, with a reserve of 410k, 14k land based weapons, 3k artillery pieces, 1,230 aircraft, 386 helicopters with 53 airports and 18 ships against a force of 2k poorly armed ill trained part timers with a few hunderd home made rockets. Some war and some victory!!!

They just should be suppressed which has been done. Apparently they do not want Cast Lead # 2, at least for now.

Israel showed clear restraint during this war and scored clear points in the world opinion. Those who opposed it will always oppose it, but the world knows that Israel could have turned Gaza into Sahara within minutes if they wanted to, but didn't! No wonder hizb and hamas are quiet right now. If hamas REALLY did win, why haven't we seen any hamas rocket fire anymore?

Clear? Utter garbage... Hamas, according to Israel was also supposed to stop smuggling weapons. Yet Hamas never said they would cease these activities regardless of Israeli attempts to impose their own conditions, unilaterally for the ceasefire. After all, would Israel agree to stop manufacturing arms during a ceasfire! Hamas also conditioned the ceasefire on the lifting of the economic siege. Another unilateral condition. This Israel refused to do, although they had indicated they would ease restrictions. In any case they hardly did anything to lift the economic siege. The only aspects accepted by both sides was that Israel would refrain from operations in Gaza whilst Hamas refrained from rocket fire. Even more revealing was that Israel began a meticulous plan to strike Gaza even whilst negotiations for the ceasefire were ongoing. Making plain their intention to go in to Gaza at a propitious time. The gap between US election and Obama's innaug' was a crucial opportunity. The Nov 4th incursion set everything up nicely with the added benefit of an Israeli election to stir up the electorates juices. Still Hamas offered a longer term ceasefire in return for the lifting of the siege. This would have spoiled Israels party, so was of course brushed aside. Israel chose war and anarchy for Gaza rather than reconciliation and progress. They committed the ultimate crime. They should be made to pay dearly.

"People in Sderot don`t really care what you think, Mark Lincoln. What they care about is that rockets no longer rain from the sky... " For now Paraclete and that is the point. Hamas did not lose its base. It did not collapse. Its casualties were minimal, 300 out of 15,000, so its forces are intact. It can restock and retrain for the next round. The point being that, contrary to the Shin Bet guy's line, Israel achieved little by Cast Lead - not a victory, not the defeat of anyone, not the major degradation of the enemy's capability, zilch. It bought a bit of time and relief for Sederot, but at a considerable cost in terms of civilian lives, Goldstone/ICC and serious loss of world sympathy and support. By the way, I have never read any post on Haaretz supporting Hamas rocket attacks on civilians, it has been roundly condemned from all sides as immoral, illegal and downright cowardly.

As you seem to be the only one who didn't watch the daily bombing and shelling on tv or read the newspaper reports, you subscribe to the option that IDF marksmen have a 78% error rate and just keep hitting these women and children (disguised as bearded men by cunning Hamas oppos no doubt) by mistake. Mmm. There was obviously very little house-to-house close-quarter fighting or the IDF casualties would have been a heck of a lot higher than, what was it, 8 deaths? It didn't happen, it is just post-rationalisation and fairystories. Rather like the Shin Beit chap's claims about military 'victory'.

Sir, All of them were civilians - and probably most of them militants. Hamas statistics is not reliable - armed 18 yo were listed as children. 300 civilian "insurgents" among civilian non insurgents? " IDF marksmen" did not perform well? May be

What they care about is that rockets no longer rain from the sky (which I'm sure makes you green with rage)

The raid in early November of which you speak was to destroy a tunnel being constructed by Hamas into Israel. A clear truce violation. Hamas was caught red-handed.

Open one of the prison gates to allow the 'human shields' to escape to a safer place...

The fact is that the situation in Gaza is about what it was a year ago. A year ago, Hamas was suppressing Islamic Jihad's qassam crews. Now, it is suppressing Islamic Jihad's qassam crews. Hamas was firmly in control then, and is today. The pathetic attempt to make Cast Lead to seem a brilliant success is beggared by reality. And just makes Shin Bet look foolish, and to believe that Israelis are all fools.

where you come from?

"but in the end Hamas would not have remained in control of Gaza" And who else would? Israeli re-occupation was out of the question. The above sentence suffices to show that this "study" is full of rubbish.

The only thing he's wrong about is that having marginalized Hamas in the way he describes is an achievement. But of course that depends on whether you're interested in peace or whether expansion come hell or high water's your thing.

Unless you buy into the leftist/anti-Semitic malarkey that Israel's national purpose is to shoot civilians for fun and profit, the operation achieved its goal of stopping the rocket fire. Hamas doesn't measure its success by how many Israeli soldiers it can kill in combat, but by how many Palestinian civilians it can force Israel to kill by hiding behind them in combat.

Hamas chose to fight amongst civillians without uniforms? Israel fought a ground,house to house battle, that lasted weeks. If Israel resorted to bombing as the answer,it would have all been over in about 30 mins without one IDF soldier leaving home. PS Where did you express your disapproval for years of bombing civillians in the Negev? A direct hit on an Israeli kindegarten,school or hospital.? Love it when people discover humanitarian concerns en masse,on cue.

Hamas chose to fight amongst civillians without uniforms? Israel fought a ground,house to house battle, that lasted weeks. If Israel resorted to bombing as the answer,it would have all been over in about 30 mins without one IDF soldier leaving home. PS Where did you express your disapproval for years of bombing civillians in the Negev? A direct hit on an Israeli kindegarten,school or hospital.? Love it when people discover humanitarian concerns en masse,on cue.

Hammas is defeated because it has lost any possible military option and diplomatically has nowhere to go. Hammas role in present times is what Israel expects it to be. Weak enough to constitute a military problem. Strong enough to disarray any attempt of palestinian unity. Despite all the international yelling, there are no signs that Europe and the United States will force Israel to move into a peace process in which Israel will be forced to withdraw.. Why???? One single explanation. Because of Hammas. Israel has transformed Hammas into its best asset. Isn't this a major strategic achievement????? I think it is.

This article seems intended as a response to the article on here claiming that Israel did not secure a worthwhile victory in Gaza. It is only considering the tactical aspects of Cast Lead and ignoring the worldwide diplomatic fallout. Fair enough, but even if one considers the tactical aspects alone one sees contradictions. "the IDF undoubtedly could have destroyed Hamas' military capabilities." Yes, but it was assessed that in order to take Gaza City Israel could expect to lose 200 IDF.[probably plus another thousand dead civilians] This might have been possible miltarily but was not considered politically feasible for Israel. As it is. Hamas remain firmly in control in Gaza, the PA have hardly been strengthened either. A short term pick me up after the Lebanon 2006 shambles the only significant gain for Israel. The notion that you can defeat a broadly popular resistance movement lives on in the minds of the the authors of this one dimensional report.

Hamas has been fighting from inside a cage and this was also the case for this operation. I don't suppose that counts with the pros but anyone with a grain of common-sense can see what this blurb is designed to do. It's so maladroit all this verbiage. I hope the guys who published it aren't expecting a doctorate for their pains.

Why else would Hamas be using women and children as human shields if not losing and lost?

and shelling civilians, please explain how 1,100 non-combatants were killed in 12 days but only 300 insurgents. Nearly 100 civilians a day is some going, even the accident-prone USAF doesn't match that in a YEAR in Afghanistan. Or are you saying that IDF marksmen have a 78% error rate?

It wasn't a war. It was a small potatoes operation against a two-bit terrorist organization hiding behind human shields.

No,Damascus and Teheran lost it.

rockets may have dropped in numbers, but never stopped, Shalit is still being held, and world opinion is rapidly going against Israel after the Goldstone report, Hamas wins.

Indeed, the rockets topped, Hamas' line has proven mostly hot air and they can't even reconcile with with their fellow Palestinian rivals Fatah. But, Israel has only stopped an agressive irrational force, it has not initiated a peaceful momentum to resolve the dispute.

Amazing at the Pals or arabs who wrote above. Dont they read their own lies in their newspapers. Israel was forced back into Gaza and make no mistake, it will do it again if needed. It has been said time and time again. Israel will only put up with so much. Then watch out - proof? 1948, 1949, 50's, 60's and again 70's and again 90's remember. What was the excuse then? and not Muslim brother dared to attack Israel while the poor Pals were being bombarded - why? because not even your brother can put up with you. ASK the Egyptians or look at the facts, not fantasy which is what you dream of all day long and write non factual opinions like most of the above responses. THAT IS A FACT.

Israel might look to the Vietnam Tet offensive. The U.S. won a staggering military victory, decimating the N. Vietnamese and Viet Cong, yet lost the political battle.... which in the long run is the most important.

"Somehow flying F16s over and bombing 1.5 million starved and dehumanized people in the world`s largest open-air prison is supposed to indicate valor and courage." You don't REALLY believe that what Israel is doing is bombing civilians? It's ignorant people like you that give Hamas the fuel they need to continue holding the people of Gaza hostage.

If Hamas suffers another such defeat, Israel will be ruined. Definitely, Israel needs to grasp that force and violence, while very useful tools, have their limitations. You can no more solve all problems with them than you can carry out all home repairs with a hammer. Leaving passion aside, Israel really is compiling some interesting material for analysis here. 'Limits on the Usefulness of Force: Israel, 1982-20__.' But keep it up, guys. Keep logging those victories. I'd guess you can stand about two more.

Gaza was a huge lab for experimental weapons...brutal weapons like DIME and who kows what...how could a rag tag group fight one of the worlds storngest militaries/ If anything it proves the worlds point...it wasnt a fair fight

I think more disturbing isn't that Hamas lost militarily, but that Israel is actually priding itself on "victory" and assessing Hamas as though it was an equal enemy. Somehow flying F16s over and bombing 1.5 million starved and dehumanized people in the world's largest open-air prison is supposed to indicate valor and courage.

For anyone who doubts this, Google it and you'll find Israel broke the ceasefire in early November, killing several Hamas members during a raid into Gaza.

It was an attack by the world's largest military machine. The truce was broken by Israel (as every truce has always been) because Israel was tired of waiting for an excuse to attack unarmed civilians. Hamas isn't allowed to be armed, or to have an air force or a navy, or tanks. This was no victory for Israel. Certainly Israel achieved its goal of killing Palestinians, but it has certainly lost in the forum of world opinion.