Rabbis at secret meet: Soldiers who refuse orders are 'heroes'

You are using big words and quoting big words again. The "miracle democracy" and "complex reality" do not change the basic reality that religion and state should always be separate or the result is the Islamic Republic of Iran. Or are you implying that the Israelis and Jews should be treated with a different set of standards because they are the chosen ones? Please give us a break

The soldiers on the so called left (I would rather call them moral) object to occupation of another's land, oppression, and killing of innocent civilians. The soldiers on the right object to the dismantling of settlements and outposts that are not only immoral but illegal. What is their justification? A religous fanatical and delusional belief that the WB is their homeland. Anyone who equates these groups is not only a fool but a testament to the decaying fabric of Israeli society and democracy.

The most basic element of all democracies..... Mixing them is a disaster. Look at Iran. In many ways Iran and Israel are the same.

The solidarity which holds Judaism together in difficult times has always been destroyed whenever Judah's teachers (the Rabbis) try to form a government. Judaism has a moral core that must be denied if a government is to be formed. Does this surprise you? Government is at best an amoral institution. more often immoral. This stands in direct conflict with Judaism. Religion and politics do not mix except to create chaos. Which is precisely what we are witnessing right now. Regards

"Israel needs to make peace with the Palestinians so that Israel can have its own civil war and decide once and for all just what kind of state Israel is to be" Another twenty years or so and Israel will be due for its own civil war. Just time enough for another generation to come of age.

Every religious leader is a dictator at heart. A very human trait supported by years of careful preparation. Only, some religious institutions control this urge. Others do not. Rabbis should stick to their vocation: teaching the faith of Judaism and not strive to control a government. It has been the death of the Israeli nation again and again. We hope it will be different this time.

theirs is a conspiry of meddling, manipulating, and inciting!

Some nations of the world, particularly in Asia, have yet to learn the most important lesson of the last 500 years: that theocracies just don't work anymore. Zionists dreams are 3300 years behind the times; and it will take a while for them to catch up. Meanwhile, it seems to me that neither the rabbis nor Netanyahu rules the country. LOOL! They are too busy fighting each other tooth and nail. Israel is a country divided against itself.

Shalom, Rabbi I admire your reasoning and analysis. But I am afraid that Netanyahu and others of his ilk can't see the difference between police and IDF. It was the same in Germany when Hitler brought together Wehrmacht, police, SS, Gestapo and all other "law enforcement" agencies and put them under his direct control. The rule is: if he carries a gun, he is the servant of the state.

The whole debate here is over 2 questions: A. Is serving in the Territories to limit terrorism explicitly immoral? B. Is destroying entire Jewish communities in the Territories and forcibly transfering their inhabitants to theoretically improve peace prospects immoral? Regarding A, the 4th Geneva Convention explicitly allows for occupation and the limitation of civilian movement. I would argue that given the circumstances, it is a moral imperative to take advantage of this completely legal option. Regarding Question B, the 4th Gen. Conv. can't guide us as it refers to civilians who are not citizens of the Occupying Power (though Jews who are not citizens of Israel would in theory have 4GC protection, interestingly enough). Human rights conventions, OTOH, including Israel's own laws, definitely ban wholesale destruction of communities and forced transfers where there is no immediate military necessity. I would argue that what happened in Gaza was indeed immoral.

John Keane, perhaps the leading historian of democracy, in his recent massive world history of democracy, calls Israel one of the "miracle" democracies in unlikely areas (Life and Death of Democracy, 2009, p. 650). Whether one agrees with him or not, his perspective on Israeli democracy rests on immense knowledge of the subject, whereas yours is a classic case of what Said saw Orientalists doing with Islam: "First you essentialise the category into a homogenous form...the result is a construction which does violence to complex realities" (Strawson, 2005); in your case, Mr. Sullivan, consistently and repeatedly doing violence to complex realities is a gross understatement.

"Dozens of religious Zionist rabbis held a secret meeting ... to discuss ... the campaign against having the army evacuate Jews from their homes." Against Torah to evacuate Jews from their homes on stolen land. Not against Torah to evacuate Palestinians from their homes on land rightfully theirs.. Two sets of laws + two catagories of people.= apartheid. Not much change since the days of the judges.

What is the disgrace when IDF soldeirs refused to Destroy Palestinians homes or when they Refuse to fight against the Palestinians they were considered Heros in Israel so why can it not work the other way around Or it is Ok for Jew to turn against Jew in Israel?

The need to evacuate settlers pre-supposes that they will be massacred by Palestinians if the borders are drawn and they are left on the other side. In the mind of the secular Jews, it's the same thing as evacuating Jews from Nazi held territory and certain death not "Jew on Jew ethnic cleansing". Why isn't anyone questioning why the massacre of Jews who want to live on the Palestinian side is an acceptable premise when Palestinians who end up on the Israeli side are (rightly) expected to obtain Israeli citizenship and equal rights? If the future Palestinian state were peaceful and pluralistic, the resolution would be purely administrative and the type of housing would be a zoning issue not worthy of the international community's attention.

Sedition with the intent of installing a theocracy.

Again, whatever it is that the rabbis are saying is their right to say. They not 'coercing their minions' to do anything, just as I am sure that the Leftists ('the bare-headed lot', to borrow from your anti-Semitic phraseology) are not being coerced by academia, the media and radicals within the govt.). Israel does have a mixture of synagogue and state (if that's egregious to you, so be it), but rabbis expressing their opinions (and mind you, on this issue there is the widest range of opinions among 'the skull capped lot') isn't an example of it. It sounds to me like the Left only promotes free speech when it's the free speech it wants to hear.

Then why are you in Australia - don't criticize those who serve primarily in COMBAT units - while you sit safe and uninvoved in Australia

And what COMBAT unit did you serve in Tzahal? Don't make speechs siting on your rear end in the U.S. When your ready to SERVE in a COMBAT UNIT - then you can talk

... refusenik right-wing rabbis and the "heroic" performance of right-wing refusenik soldiers... ... no immediate relevance to left-wing refuseniks, who in any case pay with prison sentences amd other punishments meted out by the IDF... ... thus far the right-wingers have been getting of scot-free... maybe this will now change...

There is no place in a democratic society for a group of clerics to plot ways to subvert the state's military command structure. These rabbis should be arrested and tried for sedition, and any soldiers who obey these rabbis' halachic rulings should be courtmartialed. This sedition is more of a danger to Israel than Hamas, Hezbullah and Iran combined.

It is wrong for these "rabbis" to try to influence soldiers to disobey orders; by the same token is is wrong for left wing organizations to try to influence soldiers to do the same. Both are wrong.

Are you really so naive to think they don't have enough Police to do this Job !? They use this Brush (the IDF) to paint a Picture called "The Israeli Public against the Bad Settlers". Do you think anybody in our State identifies with a Policeman ? What ever you think about Settlements; The IDF should not be involved in their destruction. Israel has enough unsolvable Problems, why creating another Headache that could be easily avoided.

These nationalist rabbis have a right to express their opinion. They do not have the right to coerce their minions to follow a certain polciy that hgoes against the stated interests of the state. What thye are saying is you are a Jew first and an Israeli second and as a Jew you cannot follow these laws which originate in a higher law. it is an egregious mixture of synagogue and state. As for the leftists, they are consider pariahs by these rabis and the government, not the same thing with these skull capped lot who are looked upon as perhaps disobedient but at heart good zionists if just a bit too zealous.

are traitors and should be tried for desertion. Which in time of war usually carries the death penalty. This is about maintaining the cohesion of the Israeli Defence Force. Those who refuse orders should be executed. Those who encourage serving soldiers in the Israeli Defence Force to disobey orders should be tried as spies and agents for Iran and treated accordingly. These Settler rabbis are going to destroy the land I love, and where my first loyalty lies.

You claim that no one is questioning the right of these rabbis to express their views, but that's precisely what is happening on multiple posts here and more importantly in the Israeli govt. and media. And whether you believe that the rabbis are concerned with halacha or moral conscience (I believe its both) is irrelevant to the issue of whether they have the right to discuss and voice opinions on this issue. While its Leftist objectors don't have these particular rabbis rushing to their defense, you can be rest assured that they have an even more powerful cabal of govt. officials, academics and media at the ready to defend them. Your argument about whether these soldiers should have enlisted in the first place is an important one, though it really circles the more essential core issue of how the IDF is being used (or abused) to serve particular political interests. And again, the same argument you raise should be applied to the Leftist objectors.

Left wing nuts have told our soldiers not to defend Israel for decades and now see the hypocrisy when real soldiers with morals stand up for their nation instead for Israel's enemies and left wing extremist complain. "Right"-geous stands for Israel and justice and while the left advocates surrendering to terrorist enemies of Israel. Not exactly the same!

The state of Israel is fully aware that this segment of their population could potentially explode, deny the agencies of the state and act on their own claiming a higher law than that of the state. These soldiers who refuse and the rabbis who are their ideological underpiners are identical the the serbs and the role of their Orthodox Church in the Srepsk republik with their demand to maintain Kosova as the most sacred Serbian heartland. They too feel it was given to them by God to protect Christianity against the forces of Islam.

policies as in Occupying another people and comitting war crimes. "Not sure why soldiers are denied a right to conscienciously object (assuming they do so in advance, and not on the battlefield) when they understand that they are implementing self-destructive policies that contravene the stated goals of the IDF. Does the argument "we were only following orders" preclude moral decision making?" Erich Do you agree that Soldiers of conscience should be allowed to object to taking part in that form of self destruction. Regular little bigot are you not Erich???.

because the secret was leaked in torrents.it's part of a charade,a deception,deflection,side-show.as for further promised secrets:the rabbis are,directly or veiled,state salaried and employees.there is at present no evacuation. if this non-evacuation ever changes,there would be no need of any troops.their deployment is only for dramatic effect.as seen on t.v. in gaza and west bank some years ago,members of knesset,rabbis and all,the last time any one got evacuated poor soul,to his own country mind you,not exiled or expelled,and with a nice cash recompensation for the property she never payed for.

You seem to forget 80% of dati soldiers join chravi units - while the non-dati primarily choose to be jobnicks - without the Orthodox soldiers tzahal would not be the excellent fighting force it is today

The Jewish Religious fundamentalists are the ones who claimed God told them they can live there and kill and displace those living there before.shame on those Dark Age Mentality fanatics!

And here is the rub. Zionism has never been able to find a solution to the problem of how Israel is both Jewish and emocratic. It has never really found a via media in deciding the role religion will play in the state. Israel has no Constituion for this precise reason. Can you imagine the US, Canadian, French or British military allowing this interference and dictating to a segment of their population? All of this testifies that Israel is not a democracy in the secular western sense of the term but an ethnocracy in which the political role of religion has never really been clarified. Hence, the mess.

If Israel is unable to evacuate the settlers, what solution to the conflict remains except for a one-state solution?

There is to be no distinction between refuskiks and these rightist nationalist religious soldiers who refuse service.They are both breaking military code. The left are willing to serve time in jail for their moral stand and are not trying to get out of that.They however, do not have political bodies of rabbis coming to their defense. The moment of conscienciously objecting should have occured before they signed up for these special units since they surely knew that the government had,at least in word, commited to dismantling the illegal outposts if not colinies themselves. No one is questioning the right of these nationalit rabbis to express their views but thrusting those views upon others as a means of getting them to act in a certain way telling them they are violating Jewish law. I do not believe these rabbis are worried about question of conscience but the law, the halacha. It's a valid position to hold that these soldiers,rabbis and the settlement movement is illegitimate.

"As to "land theft", that would be YOUR Tel Aviv:" So even you now admit that Israel was founded in 1948 on land theft.

Not sure why the IDF code of ethics only applies to soldiers who won't serve Leftist aims but is inapplicable to soldiers who won't serve Rightist aims. Not sure why soldiers are denied a right to conscienciously object (assuming they do so in advance, and not on the battlefield) when they understand that they are implementing self-destructive policies that contravene the stated goals of the IDF. Does the argument "we were only following orders" preclude moral decision making? Not sure why rabbis who serve as communal leaders, educators and decisors of Jewish law suddenly lose the right to express their opinions in what is supposedly a democratic system, especially a democratic system that allows for supporters of Arab terrorism to serve as Knesset members. Not sure why a bozo sitting in NM has more of a right to comment on the goings on in Israel than those rabbis and combat soldiers who choose to live in Israel and if necessary to die for Israel.

"And there shall be one law for you and for the stranger in your midst." Not with these rabbis fro whom land acquisition is the ultimate commandment and their code of morality does not apply to the stranger. They have the audacity to talk about "ethnic cleansing" when that is the sin that they advocate themselves. The injustices the followers of these nationalist rabbis perpetrate day in and day out will result in their being vomited out from the land.

That is the question. Also, does Israel follow secular law as any western style democracy or does it abide by a higher, theocratic law that transcends man made legislation? There is for these rabbis and the soldiers who were cultivated carefully, indoctrinated in these hesder yeshivot, a higher law that cannot be broken. In some questions of certain dictatorships the basis was race, while here it is nationalism combined with religion. Their ethics are nationalist ones with a coating of religion. These "heroes" have the potential of tearing apart the social fabric of Israel with the rabbinate giving the directives to the soldiers. But then, the very government and military now complaining about this path are the agents that put it in place from the start.

This view is the basis of Likuds original values. There is no reason why Jews can't live on this land, especially the places deemed legal. When did the left wing become mainstream and the right wing view be considered too extreme to even discuss anymore. There are many secular people with the same views

...global. Religious fanatics of all creeds are disturbing and destructing the hearts and minds of ordinary people who want to live in solitude and peace. For sure, the overwhelming majority of Arabs, Palestinians, Moslems, Jews, Israelis, just want to live their lives, take care of their families, kids, education and professional careers - all of this without the disturbing interference of overzealous hotheads having their own personal hidden or semi-overt agendas.

The courage it takes to refuse a completely immoral order to hurt other 'human beings' like Palestinians is difficult to comprehend for most people brainwashed by the torrent of defeatism and self-loathing policies.

... where the author opines that the thing that most terrifies Obama is Pakistan falling apart at the seams, and the religious crazies grabbing control of the state and - with it - all those nukes. Hmmm, seems that Pakistan isn't the only place where the religious crazies look like grabbing control of the state.... So what happens when some army units move to dismantle an illegal outpost (you know, as Barak keeps promising to do Real Soon Now) only to they find themselves blocked by hesder yeshiva-brainwashed grunts? It'd be an interesting question: who opens fire first? You know, seeing as how "shoot first!" is the number one rule in the IDF 'n' all.....

Rabbis who incite mutiny in the armed forces, through encouragement to disobey lawful orders, are criminals who should be charged and locked up. There is no place for a religious 5th column in matters of security, law and order.

...?this would be sedition and there are penalties for that when the speech or acts prompted by them "in the face of national security concerns, where there is a near certainty that national security and public safety will be harmed." For far too many years we have allowed our rights of freedom of speech to extend to the religious right. One consequence was the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, in an atmosphere in which he was likened to a Nazi, rabbis began passing death sentences on him, and we sat back as a people and tutted and said 'yes but they're our people, they don't mean it.' They meant it then and they mean it now. In their attempts to subvert the rule of law in our democratic society and seeking to urge IDF soldiers to refuse direct orders because of religious considerations these rabbis are trying to create an army within an army, 'their army' which responds to another higher order. For once the Defence Minister cannot dither. He must act against this now.

Secret meeting, indeed! That's why it's being reported in full detail by all the media. Who are you trying to kid?

We, Jews, throughout our Exil, encouraged to keep our Culture emanating from the Patriarchial Ethos, instilling in us the Solidarity that consciently, in the darkest hours of our history, we went to the echaffodage to stick, by hook or by crook to our Believes. Now, I am no fan of the Rabis, but I am dumfounded to read that a society whose educational system promote freedom of thought, freedom of non-conformism, suddenly we turn around, throwing all the Historical uplifting, and deny some sector of our society from disagreeing with a command: "you shall not hurt your Brothers". The fact that there are various aspirations among the Israelis as to the future of the Nation, and the preservation of the State, speaks highly about its citizens. Just read Haaretz, sometimes you'd think that the roof above us, Israelis, is cavimg in and going to burry us instantaly. Its one voice in the multitudes of voices in the choir, singing sometimes out of tune, yes, but withintensity,creating a harmo

The Revolutionary Guard in Iran is taking over from the legal (but clerical) gov't, imposing its will on the entire country. Will this happen to Israel, when the clerics start dictating military policy? Israel needs to make peace with the Palestinians so that Israel can have its own civil war and decide once and for all just what kind of state Israel is to be.

Amir - glad that there are those on the "other side" who agree with us on "this side" that the extremists have to be cooled down. However, we don't know of anybody trying to cool down the extremists in Gaza or the West Bank. The Hamas and Fatah official positions still call for the total destruction of Israel, and nobody seems to have the courage to change either Hamas or Fatah. Keep working in Stockholm, we'll keep working here. Peace will prevail.

....in the world. And I'm afraid that will remain the case, till the silent majority (??) in Israel and the Jewish Diaspora will finally raise their voice and stand up against the "rotten apples" in their midst....

...for the political purposes and only as a favour for a rather limited amount of people. It is normaly seen to be totaly against the real message of the Bible to use God's message for the political,social or any kind of greedy and selfish benefits of the human beings.

rabbis who urge young soldiers to disobey are our worst enemies. israel sould separate state from religion, and put an end to narrow minded rabbis who refuge to see that the wolrd is moving on.

"The courage it takes to refuse a completely immoral order to hurt other Jews is difficult to comprehend" - Yeah, whatabout when ANTI-Zionist Haredim are repeatedly beaten up by Israeli Police in well-documented incidents ?

Israel must decide if wants to be a democratic State or a theocratic State. we have theocratic state as Ira and I think that is not a good example for Israel. All Political Parties must be free of the Religion; this is the best way to have peace and to avoid conflicts inside and outside the Country.

...Yet for some reason it is only when the "religious right-wing" do so - and only in a specific case, unlike the leftist refuseniks, who do so as a matter of principle - that Ha'aretz and co. are up in arms. Pathetic. It seems that the liberal elite aren't even trying to pretend to be unbiased any more.

These "Rabbis" and their hesder movement will turn out to be the beginning of the end of the State of Israel. When you invoke God as your political policymaker, there's really no point in having a civil government. And setting up Rabbis to override military discipline and civil lines of authority sounds a lot like Iranian theocracy. It was a nice 60 year run, but it looks like Medinat Yisrael will go they way of the last few Jewish states-dissolved in stupidity.

In a free society, soldiers should be allowed to disobey orders that they find contrary to their conscience. This is the best way to build loyalty in the armed forces.

These rabbis are making a major contribution towards the complete cleansing of ethics from Israeli public life. Their version of Judaism is nothing but perversion: a desperate search to justify colonisation and brutality. They are their supporters have turned their backs on the humanistic core of Judaism.

...your fanatic Rabbis, we will do our best to deal with our fanatic Mullahs ! Extremists are holding normal and decent people as emotional and pseudoreligious hostages, just in order exact their own control over everybody and everything.

... because then the settlements would be phased-out and disappear, except within sovreign Israel...

the idf code of ethics begins with, "the idf is subordinate to the directions of the democratic civilian authorities and the laws of the state". rabbi, the settlements/outposts are built in territories occupied by israel, and as such, they fall under the jurisdiction of the military and the ministry of defense. if by reason of peace treaty, agreement, or any other, the government determines the removal of those settlements/outposts is in the best interest of the state and orders them to be evacuated/dismantled; then any residents who choose to defy that edict are acting against the state and become threats to its peace and well being. it's the governments job to enact and direct national policy, it's the military's job to defend and enforce that national policy, and it's the rabbi's job to stay the hell out of the affairs of either.

Jews don't ethnically cleanse Jews. Period. Besides that, it's clearly not the IDF's mission. See their web site: IDF Mission To defend the existence, territorial integrity and sovereignty of the state of Israel. To protect the inhabitants of Israel and to combat all forms of terrorism which threaten the daily life http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/about/doctrine/default.htm As to "land theft", that would be YOUR Tel Aviv: * The Tel Aviv municipality was built on the ruins of al-Jammasin al-Gharbi. * Tel Aviv University was built on the ruins of Sheikh Muwannis. * The Kiryah was built on the ruins of Sarona. And there`s also al-Mas`udiyya. That wouldn't be Hebron or Shilo or even Kfar Darom in Gaza. When are you going to give back that land that you stole?

Wake up from your acid trip, non-Jews are being forced off their lands by those squatter settlers who dare to use God as the justification for their own crimes

The courage it takes to refuse a completely immoral order to hurt other Jews is difficult to comprehend for most people brainwashed by the torrent of defeatism and self-loathing policies.

... the issue is simply land-theft... a misdemeanor in all ethically-inclined nations... especially when it's done in-broad-daylight, with no existential need whatsoever, simply greed...

... these rabbis do more pervasive harm to Israel than a few refusenik soldiers bandying about a home-made placard... ... these rabbis are so-called institutionalized danger for Israel...

At the Rabbiniban and Taliban lunch: oh, we actually have so much in common after all.

The young soldiers wish to defend Israel-good. Send them to the Syrian Border on the Golan and Mount Hermon -Thats only if they are fully trained skilled soldiers. The Government needs legislation to stop interference by these fanatical Rabbi's-even arresting them for inciting to refuse military orders. Time law and order prevailed in the Settlements. HAL.

The ADL and Simon Wiesenthal Centre?

And many non-religious Jews know as well. After the "disengagement", many who took an active role regretted it. Some even went to the families to beg forgiveness. Jews don't ethnically cleanse Jews- Period.

Israel is coming apart at the seams. In a secular democratic state, religious influence has minimal influence on government policy. But in a Theocracy, religion dictates everything, government policy, political ideology of it's people, including that of it's armed forces - seems like the rabbis rule Israel, not Netanyahu and his government!

Rabbi controlled Army is clearly out of control and has become a Army of Zealots

Soldiers should not be used for political purposes. These idealistic young men have joined the IDF to protect Israel from its enemies not to evacuate settlers. If the Govt insists on evacuating settlers there are plenty of police to do the job. Dont involve the IDF.

Im assured they will get a Kosher meal served 3 times a day, they can join their friend BenIzri , just ask any Shas MK they know the way.

So Zionism envisions a strictly Jewish state, right? What other country on earth would want such a state for a single, particular orthodox people? If this happens Israel should not and probably will not have a friend in the world. More sensible, and non-orthodox, Jews everywhere must come to the rescue of Israel. Help it write a constitution (why has this not been done? Maybe because it might have to be secular?), and help it form a nation that will be truly democratic and non_racist. Probably too late.

From the article it is clear that the rabbis are grappling with an issue that has no easy answers. As educators and religious leaders, their concerns are justified, certainly no less justified than when Leftist high schoolers declare that they refuse to join the IDF or when Leftist officers and soldiers refuse to serve in Yesha or fight in Gaza.

These rabbis are a disgrace to the State of Israel. As the rabbis are engaging in revolutionary activity to subvert the control of the military to their own clique, they properly should be jailed for treason. It is incredible that the State of Israel may be financially supporting people like this.