PM heads to U.S. under threat of Palestinian statehood declaration

After Tito?s dead, regions and cities in the Balkans unilaterally declared the creation of new countries. They didn?t ask their neighbors or the world about their intentions and they just went and said, we are a new country. Why Palestine cannot do the same? It seems to me that there has been too much talking about the Palestinian-Israeli problem and neither Israel nor Palestine wants to sign a peace agreement, a peace agreement of any kind. Why not go tomorrow and do the following: ? President Abbas unilaterally declares the creation of a Palestinian State with the borders as they were before the 1967 Arab-Israeli war. All countries in the world, including the U.S., recognize the new Palestinian State. Today most European countries will recognize the new Palestinian State. ? Palestine officially recognizes Israel?s national status as a country. ? No more attacks on Israeli civilians or military personnel.

"We Jews control the United States and we do not have to worry about the United States," Ariel Sharon

... why do you always go in circle & come back again from where you started ?! In your present post you are just doing what you have been doing in all your many other posts before. Nothing new ! Example: "I referred only about the palestinians using force that can only give them nothing", AZ Your response: "Well, look closer. The elected leader of a people- which in the past, our leaders saying it does not exist- in nowadays received a great pomp in the Oval office etc.." Zeev What this has to do with what I am saying !? All that I am saying is about the fruitless results of the terrorism the palestinians are using against Israel ? Today Israel is worried about its daily life security. For that reason alone the notion of peace is pushed back un-reparable. 2-state solution has a mortal blow just because of the palestinians obsession with force ! Zeev:Just think of the Palestinians faults; & you will understand me !

Look what using force to impose our will on a foreign and stateless population - in the guise of building a Jewish state - has brought upon us. Have the courage to face it: The elected leader of a people - which in the past, our leaders were saying it does not exist - is nowadays received in great pomp in the Oval Office. And an Israeli Defense Minister has been made to publicly confess that our policy of settling the Gaza Strip has been a historic mistake. A disastrous one, if one judges by the result: An islamist enclave on our border with Egypt - that we now cannot live with, nor defeat. Now, with regard to "the Palestinians". In the context you are putting them, the term "the Palestinians" has no sense at all - split as these are now into two opposing camps, approximately equal in numbers, and unable to reconciliate. A situation our leaders have been working hard to achieve, until they finally succeeded, in summer 2005. "I referred only about the palestinians using force that can only give them nothing ... ", you said. Well, look closer. The elected leader of a people - which in the past, our leaders were saying it does not exist - is nowadays received in great pomp in the Oval Office. And before that, this is what our leaders had to hear from a US Secretary of State: "The Palestinians deserve to live under better conditions than they are subjected to, and be free of the humiliation of occupation, in a state of their own." Ms. C. Rice, on October 2006, during one of her visits here. www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/773549.html Is it that what you are calling "nothing"? Think again. Ps. A reply to you has, at long last, made its way to the "Abbas is a dead man" talkback. See #19, in www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1121555.html#resp

"Force is a miscalculation IN BUILDING A PALESTINIAN STATE" AZ. Golda Meir, Mofaz bla .. bla they said what they said for an entirely different reasons than the one you quoted me.* I referred ONLY about the palestinians using force that can not only give them nothing but also increase the pressure on Israel to fight them with all the power Israel needs in that fight. Israel can't be thrown to the sea ! Israel can never tolerate children killed in their school buses, or in coffee shops etc.. This can only makes Israel more determined to fight them to the end whatever is the cost. Say nothing about the international community. What the palestinians are doing will make only fools like you sympathized with them. What the palestinians needs is wise politics & none of their leaders was qualified to do that. What they have been doing, will only create a mad house that can not be turned into a State ! *PS: Try to use your own mind than quoting others as you are always doing.

If the illegal Arabs declare a state in Israel and obama recognizes it, we as a nation are in Deep trouble..Israel is a sovereign nation. She won't go down no matter what but we might if we side with her enemies!!

"The notion that a unilaterally declared Palestinian state would somehow make Israel's actions 'illegal' is patently absurd." (me) On the face of it, it sounds as if you are right. A Palestinian unilateral declaration of independence would not, all by itself, be enough to make Israel's actions illegal. But think again. The moment this declaration of independence of a Palestinian state is internationally recognized, and its declared borders are too, then, as from this very moment, the presence of foreign military forces on a sovereign territory against the will of its legitimate government, becomes a clear act of aggression under international law. With all what this entails in terms of sanctions.

"Force is a miscalculation in building a palestinian state." (A. Zekaria) Oh, really? Remember Golda Meir's "There were no such thing as Palestinians." ? Sunday Times (London), 15 June 1969 http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Golda_Meir That was two years after our leaders had allowed Jewish fundamentalists to force their foolish settlement enterprise on the foreign population of a land outside our sovereignty, . Now read this: "I believe that the settlements in Gaza were a historic mistake." Shaul Mofaz, then Sharon's Defence Minister, in Newsweek, May 2004. www.newsweek.com/id/105454/page/2 I am afraid I got you wrong. Could you say it again: WHOSE force you said has been a miscalculation? Have you no sense at all of what ridicule is?

The notion that a unilaterally declared Palestinian state would somehow make Israel's actions "illegal" is enough to finger this article as pie in the sky leftist day dreaming. It's patently absurd. The Palestinians can't, by force, kick Israel out of anywhere (including East Jerusalem) and declaring a state that would be recognized by anyone would immediately lift the pretense of "resistance" from any Palestinian hostilities towards Israel. At that point _any_ offensive actions by the Palestinians against Israelis anywhere would be essentially acts of war between two sovereign nations where the international legal framework is well defined and Israel would have no legal hurdles in killing an enemy state's soldiers - en masse. This is exactly what will happen if the Palestinians tried to move Israelis out of Jerusalem and other settlements in an attempt to "exercise" their sovereignty.

"Israel will then simply annex formally and permanently East Jerusalem and a good chunk of the West Bank." (FrankieB) You are badly informed: Israel cannot annex East-Jerusalem more "formally and permanently" than it has already done, on 28 June 1967. As for simply annexing "a good chunk of the West Bank", it will never received recognition by any other state. Our annexation of East-JM has never been recognized by anyone. Not even by our only ally. "U.S. will not sanction Israel, UK will not, most of EU will not, either." (FrankieB) If so, what do you think, wise guy, is holding Netanyahu from doing it NOW?

OK, so "Palestine" is declared a state. They continue to lob missles into Israel, which is an act of war. Israel declares war on "Palestine" and crushes it, hopefully leading to a stampede of Palestinian barbarians into Egypt which, no doubt, will welcome its "brothers" with open arms. Just like all the other Arab states have done; because they care, right?

"you want jewish israeli's to move from the wb." (CJK) Not exactly. Telling half the truth is kind of lying, don't you know? And hardly fitting she who told us once, "I am one of the most intellectually honest people posting on this site." Remember? To Peter Dale, 20/11/06. What I want, to say the whole truth, is Jewish Israeli settlers/occupiers to move from a land outside our declared sovereignty. Not as a concession to the other side, but for Israel's own good, if we don't want to find ourselves - having failed to separate in time from the Palestinians - a Jewish minority living under the rule of a Palestinian prime minister. This is what I, and a lot of other Israelis too, want. Now tell me this is far-leftism. "Sovereign [Israel] has the right to adjust its borders, if the other side agrees." (CJK) Right. Who said it hasn't? IF the other side, AND a large enough majority of Israelis, agree. I just can't imagine the other side agreeing to take in Israeli citizens against their will - just to help Israel solve its demographic problem. Can you?

When are you people going to wake up and realize this is all crap? The fact is that the pals want it all, to the destruction and anhilation of Israel and will not be content unless they achieve that?

Best not to piss off Obama---???? Best not to piss off God! Ah, but so many of you folks think the Bible is a collection of myths----God directed that the land NOT be divided--and that he would curse those who cursed Israel, and bless those who blessed Israel. Are you listening, Obama??

You bet----and just wait and see what stepping on God's toes will getcha!!

"Scaring Mr. Netanyahu into hightailing himself to Washington, cap-in-hand, on the mere putative rumor of such a declaration, is already priceless." Haha! Priceless!! I really doubt the Palestinians will do this. Especially Fatah who are more dependent on US and US puppet-states money. But it sure is nice to see Bibi in a bother :-)

The occupation benefits only a few settlers. Their religious zeal in the end will destroy Israel. A significantly excess amount of resources are spent on preserving the settlements and the IDF to surround them. There will never be peace until Israeli leadership understands equality and partnership with Palestinians and all Arab neighbors. If Israeli leadership does not have the vision, courage and commitment to bring peace, then Palestinian leadership should with sponsorship by the EU, Russia, China and the USA. We cannot continue to support a regime of suppression, exploitation and violence. The Israeli state is not the Jewish state. It is a state that has moved tragically away from its founding values and its Judaic heritage. What good does it do to propagate violence in the interest of reclaiming an ancient kingdom? Let us get back to saving lives and humankind.

what's really sort of hilarious is the thought of the idf fighting an army with the means to fight back. but it won't come to that anyway, because sanctions would work especially well against the state of israel. it would be be forced to acquiesce long before there would be any need to consider military action. and once israel withdraws the idf from the west bank, most settlers will be quick to follow of their own accord. the only requirement for u.n. forces will be to assist palestinian security forces until they have the adequately trained numbers to police the areas vacated by israeli forces.

Declaring a Palestinian State will only give a legitimacy for a free hand to a free for all slaughter and the end of Palestine. That is why Abbas called on the Palestinians to aim for peace. Abbas knew that any 'outrage' by the Palestinians will get them to nowhere. This time will only end with the Palestinians loosing everything. The Arab countries will do nothing. Israel has the power to make Gaza & Lebanon in all of them. Other countries will be the last to involve themselves in a bloody conflict . The whole idea of the Palestinians declaring a State is a fantazy the world can't afford. And the Security Counsel will not pass such a resolution without a veto. All the Palestinians can do is to have their last intifatha that will finish any dialogue for any future Palestinian State. Force is a miscalculation in building a palestinian state. That what made the PLO a failure !

If the Palestinians unilaterally declare a State, Israel will have no alternative but a military response, and the Palestinians will lose everything. The US and Europe are not going to send troops to shoot Jews. Any notion to the contrary is an "Arabian Nights" fantasy.

#242 says that secure borders for Israel means it gets to keep territory and settlements like Ariel and the other colonies Israel has built on stolen land? The ony land Israel is entitled to keep is that they were allowed to share with the native population (i.e. Palestinians) in 1948. No other land is Israel's. Period.

what are you smoking, Arabs can vote in Israel, in fact Israel is one of the few countries in the Middle East where women can vote.

PA want this, Fayyad want that, Obama want those..And what does God want?....See Amos 9:13-15..End of story..

No, Lab, I am not Jewish and I am in my 40's and yes I voted for McCain, not Obummer The Socialist. If there are 25,000 Jews in Iran, they're being very quiet. I know many Iranian Jews who left after the Shah was deposed because they didn't want to be hacked to pieces. Now, THAT's bigotry !!!

If the Palestinians make such unilateral declarations this means that all talks are off and all bets are off. This means that Israel can also claim the land in dispute and annex it. Israel and the new Palestinian state can face off (finally) once and for all and whomever wins will control the land for good. This is what is needed, we need final status talks along the lines of unconditional surrender of Israel's sworn enemies.

This would entail governance which the Palestinians have no stomach for and a distribution of the money stolen which PLO will never stop stealing. This also would mean that Israel would have to allow it which Israel will not. The Jews of US will not allow it so nor will the US and thus nor will the UN Security council which has no credibility regardless.

Declaring Independence after continuously losing wars makes no sense and is only a spark for further conflict. The Palestinians must prove they are willing to make peace and do so by acknowledging Israel as they have always failed to do and than sit and discuss the terms of their surrender and pave the way to peace.

The so called Palestinians can declare anything they please but this does not compel Israel to recognize their entity nor does it make up for the fact that such a state has yet to be built and has never existed previously.

Do not need to be changed by anyone, they need to be ENFORCED by everyone.

If you are seriously arguing that the Pentateuch should be the guideline for settling disputes between peoples in 2009, well, I am at a loss for words, Paul. You may as well be a mullah ranting about destroying Israel. It's the same thing, isn't it. Just change the names.

I am sickened by the patronising way in which people reduce the Palestinians to lesser people as much as I am sickened by the way in which anti-semetic and anti-muslim prejudice, generalisation and violence is used as in the form of pathetic infantile excuses the world over for violence, injustice, the justification of greed and ideological/religious superiority. There is a problem, it involves human beings wanting space to live and thrive - what happened sixty years ago had a profoundly damaging effect on a population of human beings and it requires wise, brave, committed adult heads and hearts to solve it. We all need to grow up somewhat!

"Arabs who want to live in Israel can be voting members of another country. They have no right to vote in a Jewish state. When Jews and Christians can move to Arab/Muslim states, give me a call." Frankie B Should the American people seperate you from them. Are you allowed to vote in the united States ---or sholud I ask ---are you old enough. What a pathetic little bigot you are. Incidentally there are some 25000 Jews living in Iran.

" citizenship usually does not pass through blood. germany is an exception." I suggest you get a basic idea about ius sanguinis and ius solis, and which applies to israel. Your ignorance is breathtaking.

You say the bill passed in the house with "flying colors"? 220-215 is hardly flying colors.. More like a squeaker...and it's not over yet.

"1 israel had accepted partition and therefore acted within her legal rights to declare independence." See under Charter of the United Nations, Chapter I, Article I, which refers pointedly to "the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples." The fact that "Israel had accepted partition", in this context is irrelevant. "2 israel had a government in place." So does the Palestinian people. In fact, it has two. One more than Israel. "3 israel was not divided into geographically non-contiguous territorial entities." An irrelevant fact again, to this discussion. "4 israel's declaration led to a war in which arab armies attacked her on all sides. had israel not won that war, she would not exist." That is common knowledge, and irrelevant too. "5 there is very little doubt that a unilateral declaration by the pa would lead to bloody wars." Why?

" Again---Israel was/is not and never will be interested in making a just peace" The only "just" peace the palestinians aspire to, is a peace without the Zionist state. This does not mean that they want to kill Jews, though that will be the logical conclusion because most israelis are zionists. At the end of the day the palestinians do not want a state. They want to repair an "historical injustice" The problem is that what for them is unjustice for me is super justice.

Just ask the UN Security Council to grant you lands from Iran over to and including Spain, the vote passes almost unanimously...et voila!

sovereigns have the right to adjust their borders if the other side agrees. i am not suggesting a unilateral move. if the arabs in that area wish to remain israeli, they can move to remain inside israel. after all, you want jewish israeli's to move from the wb. that, in your far left opinion, do not make them into vegetables. your understanding of equality is quite impressive.

I dont think I did any U-turn. The western frontier of Israel has to be decided in direct negotiations. What we have by now is the frontiers of the armistice of 1948. Provisory borders that are accepted, but can be changed. I dont know what you hint to, but I never mentioned historical rights of the Jews over Judea and Samaria. These are disputed territories whose final status will be resolved in negotiations between the parts. Palestinians might intent an unilateral declaration of independence as Israel did in the past. It worked for israel, I dont think it will work for the palestinians. Regarding territories and citizenship...there is no precedent that a state reliquishes part of its own territory willingly. But since the western border is not determined, Israel might have the right to do it. If Arab citizens "love" so much their Israeli citizenship, will have to abandon their "loved" villages, I suppose. "Love vs love"

Labhras..... what a silly sausage you ar

If they do they will have saved Israel from itself: No Palestinian State - No Jewish State!

They will make up some excuse that a Palestinian state threatens their existence. More BS from the BS maker

Lab wants to know why Israel keeps taking land over 45 years. Simple: because Arabs and Palestinians REFUSED to compromise since 1947. They had 100% control over the Golan and West Bank for 20 years and never established a Pal state -- why ???? In 1977 at the time of the Begin Likud victory, there were only 10,000 settlers in the West Bank, slightly more than would be evacuated from Yamit a few years later. If the Arabs and Pals had shown ANY INCLINATION to negotiate, those settlers would have been easy to deal with. Instead, Yasser Arafat and the Pals refused to come to Camp David; Arab countries ostracized Egypt; and when Sadat was assassinated, Arafat and the PLO praised the assasins. THAT'S why Israel said 'screw it' and started settling the West Bank, territory IT WON in a defensive war. What, you expected the territory to remain Juden-rein forever, while Israel held it in escrow for the Arabs, so no matter what happened they knew that they could always get back the WB ?

"moving the border does not imply stripping them of citizenship." (CJK) Think and explain: How can a democratic state force its own citizens to find themselves suddenly 'transplanted' in a foreign country, against their will? This is what "moving the borders" arik's way, implies (see #92). Lieberman's plan stinks. People are not vegetables. "Right-wingers find his plan to make the Galilee and parts of the Negev part of a future Palestinian state wrong and absurd. Leftists find his call for all Arab Israelis to declare their loyalty to the state as a condition for keeping their citizenship, absurd and wrong. And yet, due to the 15 Knesset seats he won, Lieberman will serve as the foreign minister in the incoming Netanyahu government." From "Umm el-Fahm and liberal democracy", by Caroline Glick, Jerusalem Post, Mar 26, 2009.

citizenship is defined by sovereigns, not german posters. citizenship usually does not pass through blood. germany is an exception. even jews cannot pass citizenship through blood. israeli citizenship is not automatic. jews who want to be israeli citizens must move to israel and apply. they cannot stay in another country and claim citizenship. furthermore, even those born in israel, once they emigrate, or even just reside outside israel, they cannot vote.

Axel, my facts on UNR are from Ruth Lapidoth, the most esteemed international jurist in the world. UNR 242 and the U.S. state that Israel is entitled to 'secure borders' and that means territory and settlements (cities) like Ariel, etc. Who give you your opinion -- paid propogandists for Arab sheiks ? Rabin himself said he could not envison giving more than 60% of the West Bank to the Pals/Arabs. Palestinians are 70% of Jordan, they want another state in the West Bank, and they want to flood Israel with refugees -- 3 states for them, in other words. Arabs who want to live in Israel can be voting members of another country. They have no right to vote in a Jewish state. When Jews and Christians can move to Arab/Muslim states, give me a call. Population transfer should be voluntary but if not, just as with Yamit and Gaza, it should be done by force if necessary to separate the peoples.

europe, and in particular imperial britain, had drawn borders in the past, leading to present wars. china and india have a border dispute still outstanding. the problems in afpak are much aggrevated by the border drawn by imperialists who paid no attention to ethnicity. europe has no place in such new imperial adventures, nor does the u.s. the only way to solve this problem is through bi-lateral negotiations between israel and the palestinians. i am not sure whether such negotiations would succeed in the near future, but there is no other choice. obama's interference has already raised expectations beyong normal.

"they need you for the iran solution." of course, they do. in general, they need israel as a strategic ally. just imagine if iran were able to establish itself on the mediterranean--or if the islamists of the muslim brotherhood were able to do so. europe's and the u.s.'s nightmare would be non-ending. the same would hold for egypt and jordan, and just about for everyone in the region. those who fail to understand the strategic importance of the jewish state will learn it the hard way.

The time for negotiations is past. Israel has never negotiated in good faith, and now it's time for the Palestinians to reclaim what is theirs. They know Israel will never agree to peace so long as it has all the big guns. Good luck to them.

"moving the border does not imply stripping them of citizenship. if they want, they can stay israeli, but not their children." If the parents are Israeli citizens, then the children will be Israeli citizens. You are just inventing another variant how Israel would violate human rights.

1 israel had accepted partition and therefore acted within her legal rights to declare independence. 2 israel had a government in place 3 israel was not divided into geographically non-contiguous territorail entities. 4 regardless, israel's declaration led to a war in which arab armies attacked her on all sides. had israel not won that war, she would not exist. 5 there is very little doubt that a unilateral declaration by the pa would lead to bloody wars.

"There already is a radical, violent Palestinian group controlling south Lebanon, Hezbollah." (sfg) Big mistake. Hezbollah (Party of God) is not a radical, violent Palestinian group. It is a radical, violent Lebanese Shia political and paramilitary organisation with seats in the Lebanese government, - whose name, prior to our disastrous and unnecessary first invasion of Lebanon, 1982, no one had heard. "To claim that Israel has to retreat from land it WON in a war is ludicrous." (sfg) Ludicrous only in the eyes of those who have never heard of 'the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war', as proclaimed by UN Security Council Res. 242. "If the UN gives the Palestinian state the right to areas which the Arabs lost in 1967 ... " (sfg) Ill-informed again. The UN cannot give any state any right on any area. All it can do is acknowledge its existence in internationally recognized borders, and admit it as a UN state member. Then, any foreign forces present on its territory against the will of the Palestinian government, will be deemed guilty of committing an act of agression. With all what this entails.

to leave Eastern and Sotuheastern Europe after centuries in the Area. The same happend to the Jews by the wellknown circumstances. Both were the spearheads of culture. But since than, there were no chance to annex territory. Best example the Balkan wars. No Great Serbia after a cruel war in the heart of Europe. The only exception should be Israel ? It would be a dangerous example and then you have really liquidate the UN Body. (Even Korea ended on the 38 parallel again)

moving the border does not imply stripping them of citizenship. if they want, they can stay israeli, but not their children.

high tailing it out of there with hizbullah soldiers breathing on their heels. Give me a break---- "The thought of them fighting an army like the IDF is just too funny!!" us citizen

high tailing it out of there with hizbullah soldiers breating on their heels. Give me a break---- "The thought of them fighting an army like the IDF is just too funny!!" us citizen

if a state, no crime to kill palestinians hiding behind their children and women's skirts.

my turn. "My argument is very clear. Negotiations will decide borders." Arik. You already did decide the borders. See your post# 152 "Gaza and West Bank do not belong to Israel". So why does Israel keep taking it a little bit at a time---for 45 years. No my friend---Israel is not interested in negotiations---just talks about talks about negotiations while they scoff off the cake that is the subject of said negotiations. That is my argument Arik. Again---Israel was/is not and never will be interested in making a just peace. Sadly you are just a mouthpiece for a criminal enterprise.

That's what it is called, when a group of people try to take land away for themselves from a souvern country. It is anti-God in reslity. Read the book, prophesy is happening right before our eyes.

"That is why Israel will propose to give up the "triangle" which is under Israel present borders, in exchange for the bloc of setlements. Precisely because of the demographic equation, and there is nothing worng with it." Israel can exchange territory, but not citizens against their will - unless becoming guilty of a human rights violation. The idiotic notion that people go with the real estate lives.

My dear friend, America is quite relevant, even if you wish otherwise, to Mid-East peace. What other major power even gives a damn? And, within America, we have 3-branches of government, but only one--the Congress--controls the purse strings. So, as long as Congress supports Israel as strongly as it does today, Israel has little to worry about. As for your post regarding Israel facing an armed UN force, please no more jokes like that. My side hurts. I am still laughing!! UN "forces" have trouble getting their pants on straight. The thought of them fighting an army like the IDF is just too funny!!

the next wave of Arab refugees, when the next Arab-Israeli war gets under way. With their vote would come their responsibility. If Israel's Arabs get involved, they'd would lose citizenship and become refugees themselves. The calculus here is very simple and this time it would be merciless, because new generations of Israeli Jews are rooted in the Middle East, and no longer merciful as were their Zionist leftist founders in 1947-48.

Your reading of res. 242 is so utterly stupid, that more than this sentence as a comment would be a waste of time.

Consider the possibility that when the demographic timebomb hits Israel and the Arabs offer you borders on an area lesser than 1948---because they are the strong party---and they will be---what then say you about borders. ??????????? That is why Israel will propose to give up the "triangle" which is under Israel present borders, in exchange for the bloc of setlements. Precisely because of the demographic equation, and there is nothing worng with it. "The UN accepted them---so did the "Provisional"Israeli gov. That is my winning argument" Seems o be a very poor argument, especially after the Arab attempt to exterminate the state of Israel. 1948 war: end of the 1947 borders, refugees, and the beginning of the debate for new borders.

"but if the Arabs/Pals unilaterally declare, Israel will then simply annex formally and permanently East Jerusalem and a good chunk of the West Bank" What Israel annexes will be without any recognition and declared void by the UNSC as Israeli annexations before. But annexing territory without granting citizenship to the people will be a problem - Israel's problem. All the talk of "look how Arabs are equal citizens here" will become hollow. Annexation is a problem for israel. Not for the rest of the world.

Lab, you don't know what you are talking about -- typical liberal. (1) UNR 242 allows Israel to pursue peace while exchanging TERRITORIES for peace, not THE TERRITORIES. (2) The West Bank was seized from Jordan, not from some mythical 'Palestinian' nation. If anybody has a claim on it, it is Jordan. Jordan relinquished her claim in the 1980's. (3) As the sole country authorized by the UN to come out of the conflicts of the region in control of the territories, Israel has as strong a right as any to these disputed territories. (4) Since when has the WINNING side been forced to relinquish territory ? Did Germany after WW II get back the Sudetenland ? Did the Turks get to maintain the Ottoman Empire after WW I? Not only did the territory not go back to the losing side, but the inhabitants were forced to TRANSFER their presence elsewhere. Ditto the Germans living near Danzig/Gdansk. UNR 242 is already in force. Any changes will be vetoed by the U.S.

"Gaza and West Bank do not belong to Israel and do not belong to any national entity." As you seem to consider Gaza, Westbank, Israel as separate entities, there must be - for the time being - borders which separate these entities. Which seems to me a U-turn from your earlier posts.

My argument is very clear. Negotiations will decide borders. What is your argument Labhbras?

against the existing government, which happened to be Fatah and their "corrupt" officials. In any political election, there's sometimes a protest vote and not necessarily a populace which follows the extreme ideologies of the party. The average Gazan Palestinian is not particularly radical. In fact, weren't Palestinians once more a secular people and considered that most educated per capita of any other Arab community? In any case, any rational opposition would transcend their differences for the benefit of the whole community rather than keeping their people in power countering all agreements which were achieved prior. This goes for the Israelis too and Netanyahu's government adhering to the Olmert-Abbas understandings.

With Israel perpetually stalling and or rejecting any meaningful peace this may be our only hope. Go Fayyad, and go the EU for its support!

You seem to be not fast in picking up the irony do you? Obviously that Arab israelies will no give up their Israel citizenship. They want to destroy the Zionist state from within. Have any doubts about that? Gaza and West Bank do not belong to Israel and do not belong to any national entity. Their status will be defined in negotiations. The West Bank in theory could become part of Jordan as well, and since we are or will be in negotiations, and Israel is proposing to give part of its territory in exchange for the settlement blocs, so why not offering the triangle?

"(1) There are 350 votes in the Congress and 80 in the Senate to allow Israel to annex land under UNR 242, longstanding U.S. policy."FB Since when does US law supercede that of the UN. I hope your minders do not check the contents of your posts. It might be embarrassing. And what does 242 have to do with annexing land and since when does the Congress or senate approve UN resolutions. What a silly boy you are---frankie b.

"PM heads to U.S. under threat of Palestinian statehood declaration". Isn't that what will happen any way when Abbas is gone ! A bloody separation between the Palestinians & Israel ! And any talk about 2-state will be the history that never was. What Israel needs now Unity... Unity & Unity. Palestine is a trouble the world can't afford; these days that at any other time before.

your grip. Resorting to insults and ad hominem is evidence of your inability to carry on an intelligent informed discourse. One does not need a winning argument with you. You are winning the argument for us.

your EQ level is close to zero.

"Axel the parties which weakened Abbas are his opposition" Hamas won the Palestinian elections because when the moderates cannot give any hope for a better future, people turn to the radicals. And which hope for a better future did Israel offer? Your attempt to rewrite history is laughable - Israel believed in divide at impera politics, and was surprised when it went off the rails in favor of Hamas.

The UN accepted them---so did the "Provisional"Israeli gov. That is my winning argument. It is the only argument I need. Consider the possibility that when the demographic timebomb hits Israel and the Arabs offer you borders on an area lesser than 1948---because they are the strong party---and they will be---what then say you about borders. As you seem to be losing on all fronts here---I favour the majority stance on matters.That is also my winning argument.

Er, no. The Palestinians have a right to claim all of Palestine. I.e., what was left after israel declared SOVEREIGNTY over it`s borders, is Palestine. Absolutely not. Negotiations are for defining borders plus other major things. Refugees Jerusalem. Otherwise there were not negotiations. The Palestinians deserve what is theirs. No more, no less. Nothing is theirs. The same answer. They will have whatever will be decided in negotiations. In the absence of negotiations the status quo will prevail. A move to self declare independence is a great idea. But it won't work.

Axel, I'm not calling for war -- but if the Arabs/Pals unilaterally declare, Israel will then simply annex formally and permanently East Jerusalem and a good chunk of the West Bank. Who do you think will have the final say then ? And if Arabs/Pals resort to violence or terrorism, then transfer to the Pal side will be warranted under international law. EU will not sanction Israel because no sanctions can be effective without the U.S. on board. U.S. will not sanction Israel, UK will not, most of EU will not, either. Vatican will side with Jewish State against Islamic extremists, too.

"UNGA 242 says that the borders (as opposed to the armistice lines) need to be negotiated between the parties (and the parties are Jordan and Israel.)" The parties are not Israel and Jordan, because Jordan in its peace treaty with Israel abstained from being a party in agreements about the Westbank. So live with it that Israel's border must be negotiated with whatever political entity emerges on the westbank.

Stephen, let me clue you in to the realities of American politics that you think you know: (1) There are 350 votes in the Congress and 80 in the Senate to allow Israel to annex land under UNR 242, longstanding U.S. policy. (2) Obama cannot alienate Jews by siding with Arabs or he's toast in 2012. (3) The healthcare vote passed with 219 votes. Democrats have 257 votes in the House. You think they could get anywhere near that to back Obama to side with Arabs (who don't vote or finance U.S. campaigns) against Jews (who do vote and finance U.S. campaigns)? What planet are you living on -- the same one that led Arabs to think in 1947 they'd crush Israel in a few weeks ? (4) Abbas and Pals want ALL of Jerusalem (no Jews allowed), right of return, and 1967 borders. No wonder Abbas wants to resign -- he KNOWS Obama would never support those positions and U.S. Congress and American people would laugh at them. Israel will not accept terms of settlement that are for the LOSING side.

President Abbas has respect from both the Israelis and Americans when you witness the number of meetings held, the exchanges of ideas, etc. in comparison to the way Hamas rejected his requests to bide by the Quartet's conditions to bring further progress in the negotiations. From a Middle Eastern perspective perhaps President Abbas is viewed as a weak politician because he was talking with Israel instead of launching missiles which went to no avail. It's imperative that President Abbas remains the head representative of the Palestinians and should there be announcement of settlements halting in the West Bank or similar commitment to the Road Map obligations, I believe then that serious negotiations should proceed towards resolution of conflict by 2011.

"Does anybody think the Palestinians can take on Israel ?" It speaks volumes that the only way imaginable to you is war. Economic sanctions of the EU alone would be sufficient to give Israel the choice of either a peaceful settlement or economic disaster.

The Palestinians can declare themselves a state. To claim that Israel has to retreat from land it WON in a war is ludicrous. The Europeans should know that better than anyone else. If the UN gives the Palestinian state the right to areas which the Arabs lost in 1967, then it is stepping over its bounds. Israel should ignore such an order. The next problem is, what will happen between Fatah and Hamas? There already is a radical, violent Palestinian group controlling south Lebanon, Hezbollah. Next there will be another radical, violent group controlling Gaza and the West Bank, Hamas. Fatah will lose the election if they don't cheat. Israel will be surrounded by "states" which wish to annihilate it. I hope the Palestinians don't attack Israel again.

What is your "winning" argument Labhras? That Israel declared independence and sovereignty over specific frontiers? So what? Those frontiers were rejected by Arab states and palestinians. Israel expanded as a result of war imposed to Israel, and since then these frontiers are in dispute, which actually means that the idea of a Palestinian state is still in dispute. What is so strange about that? Israel may go back to 47 borders or encompass half of the west bank as well. All depends on the parts disputing....borders and other things such as the right of return. Now explain me what is winning argument Labhras.

I have to say that when I read TBs such as yours, I am awe-struck by the utter disregard of objective fact, overwhelmed by the ignorance, and repulsed by the flagrant prejudice. FYI, Israel is NOT an illegal state, it's one of the few countries in the world whose existence was endorsed by the UN; there is NO UN resolution that endorses moving the 'zionists' back to the 1947 borders; UNGA 242 says that the borders (as opposed to the armistice lines) need to be negotiated between the parties (and the parties are Jordan and Israel.) But the truly amazing statement is: The Palestinians including Hamas have shown repeatedly they are willing to negotiating on the 1867 borders. What planet do you live on? In this very copy of Ha'aretz you've got a headline on how Hamas will not negotiate with 'an occupying power'. Abbas repeatedly refuses to negotiate with Israel and is now having a little resignation tantrum.

"I imagine a lot of Arab Israelis would like to drop out ... " (arik) You surely have a sick imagination. "There is no precedent in International Law of a country that gives up part of its own territory." (arik) No, there is no precedent. It is just that neither Gaza nor the West Bank are part of Israel's "own territory". Only ill-informed idiots believe they are. "Nobody will be forced to renounce citizenship, and arab israelies who want to remain under Israeli citizenship may do it. But the state has the prerogative to condition rights with duties." (arik) Only idiots believe the current Israeli government has the prerogative to redefine its citizens' duties - according to its own whims. Ps: It's always a pleasure to be called 'stupid' by an idiot.

" Look at Hamas`s response to Mofaz`s proposal " Perhaps it would be a good idea to disregard the extremists' disruptive actions (on both sides, i must add). Hamas' trump was Abbas' inability to deliver a positive perspective for the Palestinians, and guess who was responsible for making him appear weak and inefficient for years?

The Palestinians can declare their state over the Rocky Mountains for all anybody cares. They are not in control of large territories in the West Bank. If they declare, then negotiations are over and Israel will annex anywhere from 20-40% of the West Bank and it's Game Over, folks. When Ben Gurion declared the State of Israel, Israel was ready to take on 5 Arab armies. Does anybody think the Palestinians can take on Israel ? Israel will transfer all hostile populations from its territory. This action will be backed up by the Congress of the United States regardless of Obama's actions (I doubt he supports the unilateral Palestinian action; he'd be finished in 2012). There are 350 votes in the House and 80 in the Senate to allow Israel to keep large chunks of the West Bank in accordance with the original intent of UNR 242. Palestinians must compromise and stop with the nonsense that they made all their compromises at Oslo. 1967 borders and 'right of return' are fiction.

Or maybe you attribute yourself the critical thought of the Frankfurt school. Ohhhh...a second Habermas in earth. You have been selling craps in this fore, such as "Obama will make Israel pay..." Exactly. We are seeing that very clearly. What else? Israel war criminal??? Similar to the United States you stupid. How many Afghans have been buried today BBS? Did you count them? Who needs a change of "rules of war". Israel or the United States? Guess who?

... to the first part of your very apt post... Quoting Fortuna:"Isn`t that what the 1947 partition plan envisioned anyway? Isn`t that what Rabin, Peres, Barak, Sharon, Olmert and Netanyahu have declared they mean anyway? Suddenly Obama and Fayyad take Israel`s PM the Frankenstein of that percentage of extremist settlers` power significantly out of the picture, and allow a Palestinian state to emerge in the West Bank. No more excuses for settlements, and no more excuses for Israel-bashing. That`s the Obama dream." Fortuna, maybe after all we will be able to eat-our-words concerning criticism of Obama... If he succeeds in completely pushing through his unprecedented American Health Reform, Obama will have the time and the confidence to tackle the Israel-Palestine issue vigorously and decisively... It has has passed the House of Representatives with flying-colors, now it has to get thru' the Senate. We should sit down and pray tehilim for him...

Ever notice how it's always the most prolific contributors of Israel-bashing who are the ones to cry 'censorship' if, God-forbid, one of their 50 daily comments fails to get posted? You narcissistic fools beat everthing, you know that? Is there any doubt that you two have historically had your comments posted more than just about anyone else in this forum (except, perhaps, for Natallie Durson)? Especially you, Lincoln. How many of your comments does Haaretz post on any given day, and after every blessed article? Yet, you are the first to cry 'censorship'. If Haaretz censors anyone, it is he/she who submits pro-Israel comments. Not more than 1 in every 20 of my submissions ever gets posted. Do you ever see me cry about "Haaretz is censoring my posts...whaaa, whaa, whaa"?. Grow up! You don't own this Israeli newspaper. It's bad enough Haaretz shares your Israel-bashing idealogies. It has no obligation to make this site your own personal daily blogs!!!

As we are witnessing until today, the extremists are unwilling to conform to the PA's moderation and acceptance of Israel. There's not a problem with Palestinian statehood which would be based on 1967 borders from the standpoint of the majority of Israelis, but continual rejection of the Quartet's conditions are complicating the resolution to the conflict. Look at Hamas's response to Mofaz's proposal for the first allocation of 60% territory in formulation of Palestinian state by next year and inclusion of Hamas into negotiations. Certainly a proposal has momentum for further discussion and reasoning as to why it's a good idea in implementing such coordination from a security perspective. But no, they react rather than join the negotiation table which they've done for the last few years putting their people under continuing misery and isolation.

"The Zionists claim that all of the land was given to them by God." (Marc Leb) I hope you wrote that in good faith, but you just cannot be more mistaken. You will not find the least little bit of a shadow of such a claim in our Declaration of Independence, 1948. (Which, by the way, was unilateral too.) Those who "claim that all of the land was given to them by God", are no Zionist, they are religious fanatics, of the same ilk as Baruch Goldstein, Yigal Amir and Baruch Marzel, to name only these few. Were they to succeed in their goals, it would be the end of the Zionist state.

"but suddenly, the border that nobody recognized in the past has now assumed holy proportions." What do you mean by "that nobody recognized"? The whole world (nearly) recognizes Israel as a state whose territory is defined by the 1967 borders. Name one state which recognizes that any territory beyond is legally part of Israel. And tell me how "a line that defines a territory" would not be the most basic and simple definition of a border.

You're so far out of your league when you talk US politics--did you skip that class in High School. Ignoring the Dahli Lama.....I guess Obama "lost the Tebetian write-in vote?" Afghanstan is a mess, which is starting its nineth year of being a mess.. Health Care: When it passes, it will be a big boost for Obama in the polls. The House and Senate watching him...the entire Democratic party (exception of the blue dogs) need him to succeed, so they can succeed at home in 2010. Petra, remember the Republicans need to put up a powerful nominee by December 2011, with $100 million in the bank! I don't see that happening.

"If the US recognized Palestine, would Israel negotiate a border dispute? Peacefully?" - Mark of Lewiston I can't imagine Obama recognizing Palestine. And I can't imagine Israel negotiating a border dispute which would require relinquishing lands seized since 1967.

Zekcharya 12:3 And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would take it from Israel will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it.

I think the only solution is one state and that can be done tomorrow. No one has to leave anywhere 1 man 1 vote individual right and equality for all. If Mr. Fayyad has a two state solution more power to him. I remember in 1996~97 Arafat told clinton he will do the same and Netanyahu pressured Clinton to stop Arafat and started negotiating for Palestinian state. All the deaths and destruction over the last 13 years we're back to the same old same old. Israel must decide what it wants, palestinians aren't going to pick up and leave to Jordan it is not 1940's or 50's anymore to scare them away. Time has come to end this conflict which is the source of many ills and tensions in the world. And believe me many people are coming to the conclusion that support of Israel is a major burden on them financially in the US, and that is no good as it will create a backlash all of a sudden.

"...the Green Line is the intertnationally recognized border. How do you justify vetoing that?" Because the green line is not an international recognized border. It's the 1949 armistice line and in the agreement drawn up in Rhodes between Israel and the Arab states, the ARABS insisted on the following formulation: The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question. Suddenly it's convenient to regard the lines as a border? In that case, what was the problem prior to 1967? Or 1964, when the PLO was created? Israel acquired the West Bank as a result of aggression by Jordan. Israel won the war, Jordan, together with Egypt and Syria lost the war. Israel wants to negotiate borders - but suddenly, the border that nobody recognized in the past has now assumed holy proportions.

The Britons ruled England long before the English settlers came over the North Sea and called them 'foreigners' (Welsh). Would you support a Welsh claim to London? There have after all been some Welsh people living there for at least 2.5 thousand years.

...and I especially hope you are not responsible for the safety of others. You don't even seem to have a child-like grasp of reality. Idiots like you bear a great deal of the responsibility for Israel's current problems, I love how Haaretz censors those talking about facts and solutions but let's kids like you tarnish the image of Israel on a daily basis.

"Your own government is convinced that this border exists - or how else could it demand different taxation of goods from either side of a "non-existant" border?" There is always a hole in propaganda. Those who live by it never bother to cross check. They just spout the nonsense they're fed. However the Israel Government claims Armistice lines are borders, even though they were not borders before the Armistice.

I am rooting for the Palestinian state. How many lies and land stealing must you do to make the whole world angry! Bibi is coming over to see Obama. Tell Bibi to go somewhere else with the lies. Stay home Bibi, we do not want or need you for any reason in the United States. You have absolutely no redeeming value except allot of blah, blah and more blah! Bibi, when you agree to a Palestinian State with no land thief, come on over. Not until then Bibi!

handbook---did you. Attended your first CAMERA meeting--huh. Please google case#2056/04 Beit Zourik V Israel and note that the IHCJ(Israeli High Court of Justice---for you)ruled the West Bank---formerly Judea Samaris---2000 yrs ago---now a defunct term, to be held under "Belligerent Occupation" by Israel. Ergo if Israel is the occupier then it follows that the territory it occupies can not be sovereign Israeli territory Ergo it is not Israeli land. I do hope that helps you with your confusion---Paul. Such confusion can be fatal.

handbook---did you. Attended your first CAMERA meeting--huh. Please google case#2056/04 Beit Zourik V Israel and note that the IHCJ(Israeli High Court of Justice---for you)ruled the West Bank---formerly Judea Samaris---2000 yrs ago---now a defunct term, to be held under "Belligerent Occupation" by Israel. Ergo if Israel is the occupier then it follows that the territory it occupies can not be sovereign Israeli territory Ergo it is not Israeli land. I do hope that helps you with your confusion---Paul. Such confusion can be fatal.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/decad169.asp So what? Israel accepted the frontiers of the partition and after a war imposed to Israel, the frontiers were moved. The americans recognized the new frontiers and will recognize, whatever frontiers will come up from negotiations. The palestinians can invoke 1947 borders, and Israel wont accept and vice versa. Israel can demand the whole of the land of israel and palestinians will reject. At the end of the day, borders will be decided in a peace process. The alternative is the status quo. Not bad. It endured for 40 years, it might remain for 100 years more.

"Israel western border has never been recognized, and actually has never existed" The Peoples Council Declared Sovereignty over the borders of res 181. Has the Declaration of a Jewish State been annulled? It enshrines res 181. "The palestinians have a right to claim whatever they want and Israel the same." Er, no. The Palestinians have a right to claim all of Palestine. I.e., what was left after israel declared SOVEREIGNTY over it's borders, is Palestine. "The palestinian do no concede anything to Israel." They have nothing of Israel's.. " They lost whatever they could have had in 1947 first.." It is illegal to acquire territory by war... "What Israel is offering them is actually good will from Israel.." In your dreams. Offering the spare tyre in order to keep the rest of the stolen car, is NOT good will. " and more than what they deserve" The Palestinians deserve what is theirs. No more, no less.

as the signatories were ecstatic to be able to declare independence and wanted the borders to be without question. I would not call you stupid----more boneheaded really. hat,s normal though---when you are losing your argument. As you mostly do.

as the signatories were ecstatic to be able to declare independence and wanted the borders to be without question. I would not call you stupid----more boneheaded really. hat,s normal though---when you are losing your argument. As you mostly do.

Letter From the Agent of the Provisional Government of Israel to the President of the United States, May 15, 1948 ?MY DEAR MR. PRESIDENT: I have the honor to notify you that the state of Israel has been proclaimed as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947, and that a provisional government has been charged to assume the rights and duties of government for preserving law and order within the boundaries of Israel, for defending the state against external aggression, and for discharging the obligations of Israel to the other nations of the world in accordance with international law. The Act of Independence will become effective at one minute after six o?clock on the evening of 14 May 1948, Washington time.? http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/decad169.asp

The countdown continues. Israel must NOW decide their future.

Gaza, the West bank and Jerusalem are all that is left of Palestine. At the fall of the ottoman Empire there was a non-state entity of Palestine under the British Mandate over Palestine. When Jordan was carved off, finally in 1946, what remained of Palestine under the British Mandate over Palestine, was still Palestine. When Israel was carved off, what remained of Palestine, was and still is Palestine. Unless of course, you can tell me when the name for the non-state entity of Palestine was changed.... Yes? the UNSC said this of Gaza on 8 January 2009, when it adopted the following resolution "Recalling all of its relevant resolutions, including resolutions 242 (1967), 338 (1973), 1397 (2002), 1515 (2003) and 1850 (2008), Stressing that the Gaza Strip constitutes an integral part of the territory occupied in 1967 and will be a part of the Palestinian state.."

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/decad169.asp Read it carefully

1) Israel west frontier is still open to negotiations. This is true. Who could say a different thing? What is any peace process for? 2) Palestinians could present whatever they want and israel as well. One of the proposals will be ythe one I mentioned. 3) There is no precedent in International Law of a country that gives up part of its own territory. So there is nothing that impedes that. 4) Nobody will be forced to renounce citizenship, and arab israelies who want to remain under Israeli citizenship may do it. But the state has the prerrogative to condition rights with duties.Republican citizenship. Patriotic Act. Have you heard about that? Also in liberal England.. and not only destined to newcomers. Besides I imagine, a lot of arab israelies would like to drop out their current "apartheid" citizenship, for a free palestinian one. 5) Palestinians may reject Israel prposals, and Israel may reject palestinians proposals , and the status quo will remain until...

...talking of "peace", "ecology", "open hands" and the like, in a world fearful of Muslim throat cutters and suicide terrorists. But now it is moving to more serious things: nuclear terror and war.

The pals that strap explosives to themselves to kills as many jews as possible..... yes aren't they beautiful The pals that are hired by Ahmadinejad to beat up and murder the iranian protesters a few months back....... yes aren't they beautiful The pals that murder their own for suspected collaboration by hanging them in the street...... yes aren't they beautiful The pals that murder a family of 5 in their beds including 3 children under the age of 5 in 2002 for the crime of being jewish..... yes aren't they beautiful Stop smoking the funny stuff from Nimbin mate

"obama should think very carefully before he supports such insanity (a unilateral Declaration of Independence of the Palestinian state)". (CJK) CJ Kohn has, most apparently, never heard of the unilateral Declaration of Independence of the state of Israel, May 1948. CJ Kohn should read "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Middle East Conflict", 3rd Edition (Paperback). "such a declaration would lead to endless wars, with christian europe siding with muslims against jews." (CJK) Christian Europe siding with muslims in endless wars against the Jews? Now, if THAT is not insanity, then what is? Before writing a post, CJ Kohn should always remember to take her pills. And think very carefully.

"Seems the Pals would try anything illegal [...] to remove Jews from Israel." (Petra) Where all our neighbours together have failed, the Palestinians are trying to succeed? Fuelling their tanks and jet planes with what? Orange juice? Seek treatment. Don't wait, it may soon get worse.

So you're saying that the land is arab land??? do you know any history? Old Testament ring a bell? the jews have been there for over 3000 years!! thats 2960 years longer than those arabs who love to strap on explosives to themselves

and the Palestinians have the means and the support to see to it that Israel is forced into making peace. Time to act without Isreal,s ok. Time to show the pariah state that it has gone one incursion too many. Time to show that it has demolished one house to many. Time to show it has lied once too often. Time to show the world no longer believes one word that Israel speaks. We are all on to your decades long lies and subterfuge. Time to go back to the 67 lines and think yourself lucky to be getting away with that.

and the Palestinians has the means and the support to see to it that Israel is forced into making peace. Time to act without Isreal,s ok. Time to show the pariah state that it has gone one incursion too many. Time to show that it has demolished one house to many. Time to show it has lied once too often. Time to show the world no longer believes one word that Israel speaks. We are all on to your decades long lies and subterfuge. Time to go back to the 67 lines and think yourself lucky to be getting away with that.

If only there were enough people in power with the back bone to keep the heat on and make Israel see the light and offer a FAIR peace!.....with all the machavelian politicians in the US and Israel I some how doubt it though........PEACE EVER?

How can you be so dumb as not to see that Hamas is as much an enemy to Mahmoud Abbas and the peace process as is our own Yesha Council? How can you not see that the very act of declaring a Palestinian state in the borders of June 4, 1967, is by itself an acceptance of the State of Israel as a given fact?

"Umm el Fahen will be included in the Palestinian state." (arik) This can only happen if an Israeli government is prepared to strip some Israelis of their citizenship, just for being of the 'wrong' faith. Guess how the Nations would react. "The jewish bloc of settlements in the West bank will be included in Israel [after a redrawing of the frontiers]." (arik) And who will force the Palestinian state to accept that? Axel #96 is right. Your "personal reckoning" is rubbish.

Israel is no country or a state of any type. UN had no business partioning Palestine for sole religious zealots :^/

"all provisionary Axel" Even provisonal borders are borders - Who denied minutes ago that there are borders at all? You are quick in letting go your own rubbish.

in WB and Gaza (they are in Lebanon under the UN Flag) and it will be not an alliance of christian (what means that ?) europe and muslims.Even you are not prepared to make peace. They need you for the iran-solution.

The blockade of the Gaza Strip is proof of the danger of letting Israel maintain unilateral control of Occupied Palestine. You will be forced to either leave Palestine, or go to war with a UN peacekeeping force.... with actual guns, planes, and helicopters of it's own, and highly trained military personnel operating these craft. Kind of scary to contemplate that, isn't it?

"Even if Jews would live in the moon, anti-Semitism and delegitimizing of Israel would continue and even rise." (F. Benmayor) That's the most damning condemnation of Zionism I have ever read.

Palestinian could ask the moon too. Who cares? They wont get 47 borders and not 48 borders but a new redrawing of the frontiers, in which part of Israel, the triangle with Umm el Fahen at its head will be included in the Palestinian state and the jewish bloc of settlements in the West bank will be included in Israel. (My personal reckoning). If they dont accept, Israel will keep colonizing and future deals will have to heed population and settlements, ergo Israel expansion.

Those hundreds of thousands of squatters may want to pack their shit and return to Israel. I can't imagine the Palestinian state is going to allow them to keep what they've stolen, nor can I see the Palestinians recognizing those Israeli citizens as equal. Kind of like how the Arab citizens are treated by Israel. Gaza? Gaza? Israel only supplies Gaza with a blockade and misery. With help like that, the Gazans are better off on their own. In general, Israel will be forced to LEAVE occupied Palestine, or face an International peace keeping force- you know, an actual military, made up of grown men and women with guns, planes, and helicopters of their own. Until such time as the Palestinian armed forces are developed and ready to defend Palestine from any aggressors. And news flash: President Obama has already limited himself to a single term. His big promises are turning out to be just another case of an ambitious politician willing to say anything to get elected.

Once a Palestinian State is declared and supported by the U.N. and the rest of the world (except the U.S. Congress = who cares = ) then the Settkers have no choice but to return to their country Israel proper and settle the palestinian refugees, for sure they will love to be out of their camps to a livable place. Israel will support this Idea as the right of return will be solved for good.

If what America has done for you already is not enough to show your ignorant ass exactly how much we DO care about the people of your nation, then maybe we should just stop helping your ingrate asses any more, with anything. No more money, bullets, missiles, Apache gunships, F-16's, and most important- no more shielding you from the reality that yes, even the Palestinians are considered just as human as you and your kind, by the vast majority of people on this planet... no more, no less. Regardless of how highly you may be inclined think of yourself... No one is pretending away ANY violence, not even YOURS anymore, so enough with your crybaby nonsense and horse shit. Face it, the end of your free ride, on OUR dime, is over. You are left with a decision- act like a true democratic nation, or continue to act as a racist apartheid state.

Well done Mr Fayad - but what is wrong with using the 1947 borders to define the separation line between Palestine and Israel?

Congress is becoming more irrelevant every day. At some point, very soon, those rats and whores will just disappear into the mist, and we will be left to form another, stronger, more perfect union. You know, like it used to be, before it was infested with rats and whores. Our government does not rule the world. Hell, it can barely rule the 50 states. Take a good look around you right now, what do you see? So it boils down to it isn't going to make one bit of difference whether our government supports it or not- we simply aren't THAT special. It WILL happen, and when it does, all you'll be left to do is scratch your head and wonder why.

Reading all those comments indicates that the majority of repondents support your possible declaration of an independant Palestinian State. Only the U.S. congress (funded by AIPAC ) will issue a negative statement which will be short lived as the majority of the American population will demonstrate in support, Europe in general will be supportive, France and Italy will drag their feet for obvious reasons but not for too long as the population will rise. Go for it PM Fayyad Go for it.

"Indeed, Israel western border has never been recognized, and actually has never existed." Your own government is convinced that this border exists - or how else could it demand different taxation of goods from either side of a "non-existant" border?

I wonder what will happen to the settlements when a palestinian state is eventually formed in the west bank? With their population growing rapidly i dont think the settlements could survive in the next half of the century.And how long would israel be able to protect them?

Indeed, Israel western border has never been recognized, and actually has never existed. The palestinians have a right to claim whatever they want and Israel the same. But that will happen only if Palestinians decide to enter into negotiations without preconditions which actually they reject. The rest is really non important . The palestinian do no concede anything to Israel. They lost whatever they could have had in 1947 first, and then in 2000 after Clinton' proposals. What Israel is offering them is actually good will from Israel and more than what they deserve.

That was long overdue for the young state. I hope that you will be happy now.

Well, well... two states for two people - Bibi said. I guess there's no better time then now. And let's not kid ourselves, this would be a big-time move by the Palestinians. Lord knows they've been waiting long enough. I bet the EU, the Arab league... heck even Obama would have to recognize their legitimacy. There is a teeny weeny problem however... it's called Hamas in Gaza. You know, the 1.5 million strong Haniyeh and crew. They may demand their fair share of the Palestinian-state pie. Yeah, once upon a time in the middle east... and the plot thickens.

for pointing out that that is the end of Gaza and any corridor. Also of the return of the refugees. Israel will be able to live with that. Also that means end of conflict. Painful to trade built-up areas in the WB for that, but maybe worth it. Will the Palestinians be able to accept all that?

We have waited to long in the face of Israeli procrastination for the establishment of a Palestinian State. Declaring one unitlaterally will of course enable sactions and boycotts to be placed on Israel as happened in South Africa. It is time to bring this to an end once and for all.

It said NOTHING about negotiating borders, because it was between existing STATES. The words used were 'acknowledgment of' 'states' http://talknic.wordpress.com/unsc-resolution-242-did-not-call-to-negotiate-borders/

"unilateral declaration will not give them a state..." Depends on how many Nations decide to recognize it. It IS a democratic process. The Majority of the International Community of States recognized Israel, over riding the Arab States objections. "...such a declaration ...would not solve borders, jerusalem .." Jerusalem is a part of what was left of the Non-state entity of Palestine after Israel declared it's borders. // Agent of the Provisional Government of Israel May 15, 1948 ? I have the honor to notify you that the state of Israel has been proclaimed as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947.. "who would enforce such a declaration?..nato .. " I'm not aware that we have any special rights..

Nothing. Unless the U.S recognizes the declaration of Palestinian statehood, it will not matter.

The intellects, who rejected Oslo, gave specific info on why going to Oslo was doomed to failure. The chutzpa of the Left today when reflecting on that time is extremely annoying to say the least. No one could know what would happen, they tell us today. This is nonsense. Those who understand how the world really works, those who are able to internalize lessons from the past, those who could see past the lies, gave clear warnings of the dangers taken by Beilin, Peres and unfortunately Rabin as well. A curse has been placed on Israel by a salutation of Dr behind Beilin?s name. The credibility this man received and the damage he caused just because he is a soft spoken doctor, will be hard to shake off but this must be done. Jews need and must unite, and soon. There are not many causes big enough and strong enough to enable this unification. Jerusalem is one.

state of Israel was legitimate when you say "a formal declaration of war between Israel and the new state (which is perfectly acceptable under international law)" if "the US recognizes a Palestinian state in areas where there are currently Israel population centers". Isn't this exactly what the Arabs did (attack) when the new state of Israel was created on areas where there were Arab populations? if you are one of those who complained about Arab attacks against the new state of Israel, then you just proved yourself wrong.

talk of talks, nothing ever really spoken or agreed upon. This is another effort to begin a process that should have settled the Pals back into Jordon, not Israel. Seems the Pals would try anything illegal to satisfy their land lust to remove Jews from Israel. Aint gonna happen. But, two states means a real war, that's why Hamas is buying out Iran's arms. If Obama were to okay this illegal move, there will be war and Israel will again be blamed for defending herself and w/Obamas assured statements to defend Israel, would be ackward to say the least. The big difference is, Israel wont stop( cast lead) when Obamas asks the next time. He would the be considered the head enemy, and this would guarantee his loss for a second term. Obama was vetoed when he tried to bring Pals into America after one week in office. He's being watched carefully by both the senate and Congress. He's made some bad moves, 1- ignoring the Dahli Lama, 2- Troops to Afghanistan? 3- Health Care reform need I go on?

And the US was the first to recognize the nascent state. Would you recommend Israel take the same action as the Arab states did against Israel in 48? or would you recommend a more peaceful approach, like negotiation in good faith?

such a declaration would not solve any of the core issues. it would not solve borders, jerusalem or so-called refugees. who would enforce such a declaration? would nato send troops into muslim gaza and wb to fight jews on the ground? such a declaration would lead to endless wars, with christian europe siding with muslims against jews. oabama should think very carefully before he supports such insanity.

declare a state on the portion appropriated to them under the 1947 UN partition plan. Then Israel would be forced to bargain over the difference.

This would be an interesting development. It would also be something Netanyahu would not like since he planned that no Palestinian state would be independent or have sovereignty. If the US recognized Palestine, would Israel negotiate a border dispute? Peacefully?

American Republican-style Benjamin Netanyahu has overplayed his hand once again. Israel is on the fast track for parish status. Bibi's arrogance is poisoning Israeli-American relations the same way the George W. Bush's arrogance poisoned American-European relations during the 2003 Iraq War. Bibi does not share that time honored "grandparent diplomacy" with other Israeli PM's. Even Likud's Menachem Begin and Ariel Sharon knew how to cultivate the art of flexibility when it came to the Sinai and Gaza. Bibi is more American than Israeli in his thinking, and he worships George W. Bush and Ronnie Reagan. Bibi wants to Americanize both the Likud and Israel itself the same way that Margaret Thatcher wished to Americanized the British Conservative Party and the UK itself. I personally believe that Ehud Barak has a moral responsibility to rescue Israel from further isolation by the international community and immediately withdraw Labor from the governing coalition. Labor, Kadima, and Shas should attempt to form a government themselves with the support of other parties in the Knesset, without calling new elections.

illegal. The acquisition of Palestinian territory by war is illegal. The Palestinians aren't claiming any Israeli territory, in fact if they Declare along the 1967 Armistice lines, they'd be giving Israel a big chunk of territory. Admirable, generous. More than can be said of Israel.

Let them declare statehood Arafat tried once to declare his state.... what happened ...Chaos. . Imagine that the Palistinians do the dread deed and unilaterally declares Palestine's independence. It will be a catastrophe for their people.

"Declaring a state whithing another state is illegal, by international law!" True, but no-one other than Israel says that East Jerusalem is a part of Israel. In fact, international law, & all world organisations, & all legal opinions (besides Israel's legal opinions) declare that Israel's "annexation" was illegal & is void. The whole "peace process" is only for Israel's interests, not the Palestinians. It provides a mechanism to gain more land & resources, but WITH the Palestinians consent this time (last time without compromise agreement it resulted in an ongoing 60 years of conflict). The "peace process" does not provide for compromises leading to land or resources going from Israel to the the emerging Palestinian state. The "peace process" better be kept going if Israel wants more land & resources from the Palestinian territories, or at the very least if Israel wants to keep East Jerusalem, because the "annexation" is void & is legally worth less than the ink it was signed with.

The Israeli leadership will stall forever on the issue of Palestinian independence and removal of settlements. Time for some tough love from Washington.

If we do this to the West Bank,, the West Bank will become another Gaza scenario.

There are hundreds of thousands of Jewish Israelis living within the '67 borders; what will the State of Palestine do with/to them? If they are hoping for US and UN recognition, they probably shouldn't start with a mass expulsion of Jews. And, what about Gaza? Will Fayyad declare an independent state that excludes Gaza? If Gaza is included, without consultation of the Israelis, will Israel continue to supply Gaza with food, fuel, electricity and medicine? In general, how would that state of Palestine avoid a military engagement with Israel while exercising sovereignty over its territory without a negotiated settlement? All of that being said, it's clear that this article is just a rumor with no possibility of implementation. President Obama (who I proudly voted for too) will not throw away his presidency by supporting a half-baked, unilateral Palestinian declaration of independence especially while the Palestinians can't even organize elections and have no clear leadership.

The Obama administration isn't interested in helping Israel to secure the lives of its citizens. It is perfectly willing to pretend away the Arab violence against Israel. Whether motivated by naivete, an overarching desire for international peace conferences, a plan to align US foreign policy with that of Europe, or hostility towards Israel, that fact that Mitchell can talk about peace when the Palestinians have just declared war makes clear that the Obama administration is uninterested in playing a constructive role in quelling the violence. It certainly isn't interested in helping Israel to secure the lives of its citizens. Should Israel be worried ? Consult : http://xrl.us/bfs9yb

There would be too much opposition in Congress. Abbas might do it, but the American government will not support it.

Jerusalem isn't part of Israel, remember?

Well I must agree with you. Israel has declared itself as a state on Palestinian/arab land. It is an illegal state. The Palestinians including Hamas have shown repeatedly they are willing to negotiating on the 1867 borders. The illegal zionist regime has constantly ignored that and built more settlement. the next step is of course to force the zionists to move back to the 1947 borders as per UN resolution. All the settlement will be demolished.

or will result in a massive war. The declaration of a Palestinian State within the 1967 Borders from entities that have consistently acted to annihilate the Jewish people will only result in a massive uncontrollable war throughout the entire Middle East. It will give to the Arabs sitting on the fence a reason to back the invasion of Israel and create the same 1967 scenario. But, Israel will prevail again, and any US president that recognizes a Palestinian state will be driven from office.

Golda Meir spin has been laughed out of court long ago. Like the Boers claiming that South Africa had no blacks living there before the Dutch arrived. The truth is exactly opposite. Chester G. Starr states ( The Roman Empire, 27BC - AD 476) page 121, " in AD 133-35, after the final Jewish rebellion, Jerusalem was totally destroyed, and was refounded as Aelia Capitolina, and was BARRED TO THE JEWS... and from this point on rabbinic literature reveals only hostility towards the Romans." The Temple, destroyed in 586BC was again destroyed in AD 70, and never rebuilt, because there were no Jews in Palestine.

first glimmer of hope for the beautifull Palestinian peope...i look forward to seeing Palestine in the next Olympic Games.

"I vote for Obama with the hope he should be strong " - american And when has he been strong? When has he not refused to oppose the right and caved into anyone who opposed him? When did he ever stand up for those who voted for him, and when ever did he not supplicate before those who wished to destroy him? Obama does not have the sense or guts to save himself, much less fight for anything he was so glib at proposing. Obama is a gutless coward and will never fight for his own survival much less the goals of his supporters. Get real, give up.

seems the palestinians begun to understand israel made a unilateral state declaration which recognized just by US and Russa so what the pali's waited for ??

and to the western nations who are committed to the establishment of a palestinian state. from the beginning, the u.s. has recognized the fact that the territory reserved for a palestinian state that lies within those borders was illegally occupied by israel; including east jerusalem. nothing has changed regarding that view, and a u.s. veto is therefore NOT guaranteed. the u.s. commitment to israel's defense and security does NOT necassarily include collusion. the netanyahu government DOES have reason to be concerned, because this move by the palestinians will pose a serious threat to the expansionist goals of he and his cronies in the west bank. and i doubt if any amount of "diplomatic action" on israel's part will have much influence on the european union countries who already support it. to ANY country that favors the formation of a viable palestinian state, it offers the perfect soluton.

Declaring a state whithing another state is illegal, by international law!

... No more bullshit "peace process" mumble-jumble! No more zions occupations! Zions, ypu love wars, prepare to the next and last one! Better die fighting!

Seems to me that this is a signal for another mid east war. There is NO way that the zionists in Israel will sit still for their grab. We did not die in droves to return home to be thrown out again. Too bad that the world is pushing us to recapture our heartland-once again. At the end of the day it just might clear the air, we will finally ! be forced to dismantle the PA and Hamas.

I realize that allowing the Palisteinian Authority to declare itself a soverign state in the West Bank is no big deal it would merely replace the Jordan state idea system of 1967 legaly and so officialy thus it would still no not give the Arabs unity and or any more unity then they have now might even lead to squables dis agreements like between Hamas the PA thus implementing it is no danger to Israel quite the contrary if Israel allows it even helps it it might help the Israeli position you need realize this is real life why Israel is UNIQUE in the FIRST 1 st place RIGHT ??? Thank You... M. S.

One of the very material drawbacks of sitting around forever trying to keep anything from happening is that the others might just start acting without you (which means without any input from you).

Abbas said the peace process has failed. What peace process? The peace process that saw 6,000 kassam rockets falling on Israeli homes, schools and hospitals? The peace process that saw innocent Israeli men, women, and children blown to pieces in restaurants, supermarkets, and on busses by suicide bombers, the peace process that had daily vile anti-semitism spewing venom against Jews on Palestinian t.v., radio, and newspapers? Is that the "peace process" Abbas said failed? What failed is the Palestinians refusal to accept a Jewish State of Israel as a fact, and to end their incitement, terror and murder of Israelis.

But she does not have the authority to dictate her version of History to other people (well she dictated her propaganda to her own people). the Palestinians are post-ottomans, and the minority of Jews at the time were Palestinian Jews or Ottoman Jews however you want to call them. You could easily state that their are no such things as the "Israeli People" don't exist either, it's a two way road my friend.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1107050.html In this article in Haaretz just this past August, it states that "Netanyahu has offered (to Syria) direct talks without preconditions." Yet in this article, it states "Netanyahu has not signaled interest in renewing negotiations with Damascus." Has Netanyahu changed his mind, or is Haaretz not a serious newspaper?

is for Palestinians to declare their own state within the 1967 borders. After all, Israel did it some 50 or so years ago. Why not the Palestinians?

Because they claim that all of the land was given to them by God

I wish it was true, but i dont see anyone stand up to Israel and that is a shame... I vote for Obama with the hope he should be strong anought to fight off the bully goverment of Israel If what you haaretz report is true! IS ABOUT TIME!!Yes! we can

We have been waiting for that for years. PLEASE!!! Declared it. Prove to the world that you want a state more than you want to fight Israelis. It is time!

Who are Palestinians to declare independence? Didn't Golda Meir say, "There were no Palestinians. They never existed."

Israel did it before, it would be nothing wrong for palestinians to do the same. Afterall Israel gave the example!

... make others suddenly drop everything and bring it a shiny new crib to start growing up in though the more humble one offered over 60 years ago was rudely kicked away in a temper tantrum. Another kid, Jewish, accepted life in his constricted crib, grew up and prospered even though several adjacent children refused to play with him, and now he's become a productive world citizen contributing to its wellness, literally. Unilaterally declaring Palestinian statehood in pre-1967 war armistice lines and then leveraging the morally corrupt UN to help the PA physically realize that mirage is somewhat akin to trying to lap up the spilt milk for sustenance over 40 years later ... it's now curdled.

Obama may prove more dangerous to the State of Israel than Jimmy Carter. If the U.S. decides to change the two Security Council Resolutions that ended the 6 Day War, will it mean that the war is still active? Israel and all Jewish organizations must work against this change in policy. Forget about treating Obama with Kid gloves, it will lead to our ruin. I will also be very surprised if J-Street does not come out in support of this proposal.

Americans are hardly aware that such grand-sounding titles as the Palestian "President," "Prime Minister," and "Palestinian Authority" belong to system with less real authority, as against their Israeli overlords, than a city council. A unilateral Palestinian Declaration of Independence will tell Americans, in unmistakeable terms, how things have really been and why they are intolerable. Scaring Mr. Netanyahu into hightailing himself to Washington, cap-in-hand, on the mere putative rumor of such a declaration, is already priceless.

Sincw Israel continues to delay and derail peace efforts.How could one one peace and steal land. Israel your actions are right up there with South Africa.

Isn't that what the 1947 partition plan envisioned anyway? Isn't that what Rabin, Peres, Barak, Sharon, Olmert and Netanyahu have declared they mean anyway? Suddenly Obama and Fayyad take Israel's PM the Frankenstein of that percentage of extremist settlers' power significantly out of the picture, and allow a Palestinian state to emerge in the West Bank. No more excuses for settlements, and no more excuses for Israel-bashing. That's the Obama dream. But he hasn't the faintest idea that even if Jews would live in the moon, anti-Semitism and delegitimizing of Israel would continue and even rise.

to Muslim nations, also misunderstood by those frustrated to take the path to terror.

If the US recognizes a Palestinian state in areas where there are currently Israel population centers (East Jerusalem, Efrat, etc.) in order to short-circuit the process, although there may be "right of resistance" (is there?) there are two immediate consequences possible: 1) a formal declaration of war between Israel and the new state (which is perfectly acceptable under international law which is neutral as to combatants) and an open invitation to Western or any other powers to join in as allies Palestine and see how that plays out, 2) invocation of the right of formal occupier by Israel of those centers and its right to combat "resistance" -- steps 3 and 4 and etc. are available afterwards

Perhaps the Nobel Committee will give him the 2010 prize in economics for printing dollars 24/7 just like they gave him the prize for peace this year. Euther way, the United States will fade from the world stage, just as the value of the greenback fades into oblivion. Well at least the world doesn't hate the United States anymore. Good luck Israel, now you'll have to deal with the Europeans and they're completely dependent on Arab oil.

...as all those who declare any unilateral action by Israel as EVIL, applaud this move!

We shouldnt be in these territories, they dont belong to us. the palestinians having their own country, with clear borders is only good news for whoever is pro peace

There is no need in meeting Obama, he needs Bibi more to bolster his standing in polls, than Bibi needs O'bama, since his polls are fine. As to declaration of state, it is bluff- in such a case Israel is under no obligation to provide a corridor between gaza and WB. Unilateral declaration like this would completely finish the peace process. If this is Moratinos'es idea, ask him first to liberate our basque fisherman from Somali pirats, then return Ceuta and Mellla to Morroco, then get back Gibraltar from England etc.

I have been advocating this for awhile. A unilateral declaration would transform the situation even without US acceptance. At least 50 nations would recognize Palestine, including obviously all the Muslim countries. The PAlestinians can then start issuing passports and doing all the things a normal country does, causing Israel a big headache. There would then be global pressure on for "mutual recognition", i.e. the Arab League and Pakistan etc would recognize Israel in exchange for Israel recognizing Palestine. And several European nations would likely recognize Palestine. The main reason the PAlestinians have not pursued this in the past, is that once they declare their borders unilaterally, then the conflict ends with mutual recognition with Israel, but the refugee issue is sidelined entirely, so a unilateral Palestinian declaration is tantamount to discarding the right of return issue. The PAlestinians have been loathe to do that, but there is no other way out of the box.

Too bad. If Palestine declares statehood and the US were to recognize that state the situation of Israel would be dire. I don't think Obama has the spine to stand up to Netanyahu, but if he were to do so, it would be the end of the dream of Greater Israel unless Israel were willing to exterminate the Palestinians. No doubt the settlers and the Israeli right would have no problem with that goal. But decent Israelis would. And so would the world.

Time for Israelis to make up their minds. Either they withdraw from Palestinian territory and allow a Palestinian State to be formed or they give the Palestinian people the right to vote and full rights in a One state solution. Otherwise you will be shown up for the Apartheid state that you have become.

It is about time. Viva Palestine!

I like many, am becoming foward looking. I believe the scripture to be true and trustworthy. Zechariah 12 and 13 hold both hope and terror concerning Israel but specifically Jerusalem. Let there be no doubt, chapter 14 makes it clear, "I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle...", that includes all! The United States, whatever happens, will not escape, it will , abandon Israel and Jerusalem.

Then maybe they'll wake up and start managing their security affairs more seriously.

Every time we think that Obama is not an enemy of Israel he proves us wrong.

"Senior Israeli officials said Fayyad's plan initially met with positive reaction in Jerusalem" Yeah, and the current Israeli govt initially heaped enormous praise on the Road Map - until they realized that Obama wanted to take it seriously At which point the Road Map became something entirely unworkable and completely unrealistic. Israel has such a long track record of such ego-centric thinking: Yeah, that's a GREAT idea, we love it!...... eerrr, what, you want to do ALL of it? Err, no, no, we never thought *that* bit was serious.... Israel LOVES something until it's her turn to dig deep. Then the Ministry of Truth reconns reality, and what was fantastic yesterday becomes an anti-semitic plot today....

What a great diplomatic move. If Israel won't move, force their hand. This move has all the legitimacy in the world. The occupation is deemed illegal by everyone but Israel and the Green Line is the intertnationally recognized border. How do you justify vetoing that?

Cipora asked last week how the Pals can have a state without an agreement with Israel. Yeah, they can do it this way, Cipora. Abbas can do exactly what Ben Gurion did in 1948 when he stood up as the representative of a stateless people, gave a speech, and then sat down as the first Prime Minister of Israel. Ben Gurion didn't need the agreement of the Arabs to do that i.e. all he needed was international recognition of his legitimate right to make that proclamation. Abbas has that same right, and it derives from exactly the same documents. All he needs is for the USA to support his proclamation and then everything else falls into place IN SPITE OF ISRAEL. And you know what the irony is? If Israel tries to do anything about it then it will be attempting to do to the Palestinians exactly what the Arabs attempted to do to the Israelis in 1948. History, as farce. Best not piss off Obama TOO much.

Fayyad's strategy makes sense. Over and over, the UN has endorsed the 1967 borders. Only Israel has trampled those borders. Palestine needs super powers to sponsor its reemergence as a nation-state and assure its viability. Anything less would simply allow further suppression by Israel. The USA, EU nations and China should all recognize the futility of reasoning with Israel's leadership. The last few months demonstrate Israel's unwillingness to be just with the Palestinians. That intransient behavior fuels Middle East instability. The USA can correct its misteps of the last few weeks and can do it in collaboration with the EU and China. Palestinians need hope.

And Israel is itching...

Pawn to K4, knight to Q2, ..., Fayyad to SC, ..., Turkey to ..., EU to ..., US to ..., checkmate. The Israeli government, always the worst threat to Israel and the world, will be checkmated.

ever so much, more by the world than america.

It carries with it all the responsibilities of statehood Palestinians were violently forced to and at the same conveniently chose to avoid.

If Israel won't be willing to grant the Palesti- nians their legitimate rights voluntarily, they will have no other choice but to take them "without permission". After the PR-disaster from operation "Cast Lead", I would still wanna see Israeli troops crushing a Fayad (or Abbas, if he will change his mind) led governement in the West Bank, that unilaterally declares a sovereign Palestinian state..... ....if that happens, even EU economical sanctions against Israel could all of a sudden become a pretty realistic thing.

Talk about playing musical chairs and ending up having no where to sit. Is the game over or is this just another twist in the plot?

[suddenly forgot the correct #] agreed by US, UK UN for mutually agreed borders ? It would be foolish to do so and give cause for a fight the Arabs would loose fast. Obama too would be a big looser should he so agree: It was he who told Israel ONLY signed agreements matter - and US signed Res 242

It really is the only choice left to the Palestinians if they want a viable two-state solution. Because it is clear that all Netanyahu will ever "offer" them is the right to scabble about on the slag heaps created by the construction of Israeli "settlements", and to call those slagheaps "Palestine". Come on, be honest: you all *know* that's why Netanyahu won't freeze construction while the negotiations take place i.e. he has no intention whatsoever of ever negotiating their "fate", because as far as he is concerned they are not up for discussion. The Pals may as well declare their state (as they have every right to do) and remove *any* doubt *whatsoever* about the legal status of those Israeli colonies inside their territory.

that puts in perspective past acceptance of Israeli determination of the fate of Palestinians. If anyone can tell me, rationally and logically, why Israel should control the lives of people living on land that is not Israel's, I am listening. Fayyad is smart. His plan will be supported by everyone outside of Israel. Netanyahu's refusal to do something as simple as halting settlement construction has had a huge, negative influence on how Israel is seen in the US and worldwide.

Obama has wanted something to happen in Middle East from the start of his Adminstration. Bibi and the Likud must do something other than say no; time is moving quickly. Goldstone Report may play a role before its over.

Palestinian statehood declaration is the most logical step breaking the impasse of Palestinian - Israeli conflict. Let's hope that president Obama will make the historical move and recognize Palestinian sovereignty within the 1967 borders; doing so he will be remembered as the best friend of Israel.

South Africa remains a model for a just and durable peace in the holy land. After years of arrogance and sensless policy, the aparthied regime got the fatal shot and was liquated. Israel is on that road too. When Arabs and Muslms assert their strength and authority, the world will bow to reality. Justice will be late but Palestinians will get their freedom. Abbas, Fayyadh, Arafat and many others will find their place in the garbage can of history like their predecessors in SA.

The Palestinians have had enough of never-ending "negotiations" with Israel and having to restart negotiations from the beginning everytime a new Israeli government comes to power (including from early elections). The time has come to move ahead and declare an independent state on their rightful '67 borders with or without Israel's consent.

It is your own fault. Your opposition to all peace efforts is now its own reward. You have angered the wrong president.