Netanyahu to Hamas: Israel's offer for Shalit is final

BEN, I can easily trump all your links, because I can quote you the OFFICIAL opinion of the govt of Israel direct from the Israeli Foreign Affairs web site: "Prime Minister Netanyahu expressed his satisfaction at the result of the PNC vote today, achieved as a result of the firm stance taken by the Government of Israel on the issue of the vote to revoke those clauses in the Palestinian Charter calling for the destruction of the State of Israel." PM Netanyahu: "Yesterday they took a positive step, they abrogated the Palestinian Covenant which called for the destruction of Israel, through a vote of the members of the PNC." So sorry, BEN, but when the PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL (then *and* now) says that he is satisfied then you are left flogging a dead horse. Flog away, but it ain't ever going get you over the line....

I know you have veracity problems, so allow me to help you out http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_plo_charter_revise.php The Palestinian National Covenant is the founding charter of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), adopted at the PLO's founding congress in May 1964. The Covenant sets forth the organization's stated aims and goals. Almost all of the articles in the Covenant explicitly or implicitly deny Israel's right to exist and reject any peaceful solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict. For example, these articles: Article 19: The establishment of Israel is fundamentally null and void, whatever time has elapsed ... Article 15: [We call for] the liquidation of the Zionist presence in Palestine Article 22: The liberation of Palestine will destroy the Zionist and imperialist presence and will contribute to the establishment of peace in the Middle East ... The Covenant also denies the existence of the Jewish people as a nation and any ties that it might have to the Land of Israel [Article 20: "Nor do Jews constitute a single nation"]. It declares in Article 9 that "armed struggle is the only [emphasis added] way to liberate Palestine". The bottom line is that the Palestinian National Covenant calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. The Israelis, quite naturally, thought that the inflammatory language should be changed before they could consider the PLO to be a serious "partner for peace". What did Yasser Arafat agree to do? In a letter dated September 9, 1993 -- part of the Oslo Accords -- signed by Yasser Arafat as Chairman of the PLO, Arafat agreed that: ... the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators ... those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid ... the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant. But nothing was done to change the Covenant. The requirement was restated in another letter from Arafat to Rabin which accompanied the May 4, 1994 Agreement on the Gaza Strip and Jericho Area (the Cairo Agreement), but no action was taken by Arafat and the PLO.

Thought you might enjoy the following, let me know what you think http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saeky9I5T9c&NR=1 Maybe you come up with something comparable from some of the pro-arab websites, if so, send it along

Seems facts got you really upset, take a Tums for the Tummy and some truth serum for your keyboard http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_plo_charter_revise.php The Palestinian National Covenant The Palestinian National Covenant is the founding charter of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), adopted at the PLO's founding congress in May 1964. The Covenant sets forth the organization's stated aims and goals. Almost all of the articles in the Covenant explicitly or implicitly deny Israel's right to exist and reject any peaceful solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict. For example, these articles: Article 19: The establishment of Israel is fundamentally null and void, whatever time has elapsed ... Article 15: [We call for] the liquidation of the Zionist presence in Palestine Article 22: The liberation of Palestine will destroy the Zionist and imperialist presence and will contribute to the establishment of peace in the Middle East ... The Covenant also denies the existence of the Jewish people as a nation and any ties that it might have to the Land of Israel [Article 20: "Nor do Jews constitute a single nation"]. It declares in Article 9 that "armed struggle is the only [emphasis added] way to liberate Palestine". The bottom line is that the Palestinian National Covenant calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. The Israelis, quite naturally, thought that the inflammatory language should be changed before they could consider the PLO to be a serious "partner for peace". What did Yasser Arafat agree to do? In a letter dated September 9, 1993 -- part of the Oslo Accords -- signed by Yasser Arafat as Chairman of the PLO, Arafat agreed that: ... the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators ... those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid

The laughs on you!!! http://middleeastfacts.com/guests/dunetz_30mar05g.php All wind, so substance Poor creature, pretends he's constributing from afar, to scared to go anywhere near where the action is or was

BJ: "What ever happened to the one that Arafat made at Oslo, you know, the one removing the clause from the PLO Charter that called for the destruction of Israel??" BEN's weasel-word: "removing" Arafat did not offer to "remove" those articles from the PLO charter, neither in his letter to Rabin nor at any subsequent time. Read the letter, BEN: http://www.mideastweb.org/osloletters.htm Arafat stated that the articles that were inconsistent with his letter were no longer valid, and he agreed to submit that statement to the PNC for FORMAL approval. He was as good as his word: he put that agreement to a vote of the PNC, and he gained their approval i.e. all articles calling for Israel's destruction were now null and void. That's all he said he would do, and that's all that he did, BEN. And I *know* that this was done to Israel's satisfaction, because the Israeli PM at the time said he was satisfied. Some nonentity called Benyamin Netanyahu. Remember him, BEN?

BJ: "And pray tell, how many times has Hamas changed the terms of the exchange that they wanted for Israel" ****chortle**** And when did the word "negotiations" first become synonymous with the word "agreement" in your little world, BEN? They are actually mutually-exclusive, precisely because the "agreeing" bit marks the EXACT point in time when the "negotiating" bit ends. After all, if they are still "negotiating" then - by definition - there is no "agreement". You really are a laugh-a-minute, JABO.

BJ: "What ever happened to the one that Arafat made at Oslo, you know, the one removing the clause from the PLO Charter that called for the destruction of Israel??" Arafat never ever offered to REMOVE the offending articles from the PLO Charter, BEN. He said that a) those articles that were inconsistent with his letter was now inoperative and no longer valid, and b) that this would be formally agreed to by convening the PNC He was as good as his word i.e. the PNC met and FORMALLY approved Arafat's undertaking that those articles were now "inoperative and no longer valid" None of that committed Arafat, the PLO, or the PNC to ***REMOVING*** those articles, despite what you might believe. I know that for a fact, because Bibi told me so.

What ever happened to the one that Arafat made at Oslo, you know, the one removing the clause from the PLO Charter that called for the destruction of Israel?? And pray tell, how many times has Hamas changed the terms of the exchange that they wanted for Israel As usual, you're still back seat driving

ANYTHING!! You're too busy hiding in Basel Merely a back seat driver, not a participant

".....including for Russia, which is a neighbor of Iran." This seems to be another way of telling Russia if you have ears hear and live peacefully. One thing l respect Israel for is that they part with their plan well in advance for the keen. King Solomon prayed for Israel to be pardoned in case of sin, (2chronicles 6:.) l believe Israel feels it their obligation to play right with God on the area of communication where they feel they will disrupt the world peace. Obviously Israel has the ball in their coat by the way of self defense. Thank God that Russia has listened; l would not want to imagine what would have resulted not to the world but to Russia and its accomplice.

On that very amorphous basis I see good in all mankind and bad, often in equal measure. That includes America of course and it includes North Korea too as with China and the rest of world, even New Guinea and yes the Arab world too. Now as to the behavior and morality of those governments and leaders I see mostly bad. Todays America extremely bad as with North Korea, yet North Korea despite its best efforts is unable to do great harm to the rest of the planet whereas America can and has and is. Now getting such abstract notions of good and bad as applied to aggregate populations or states out of the way. Today in Israel, Israel with the active support of the US is doing much that is bad to its own minority population and to those who struggle under its occupation. Scientific and literary progress not withstanding.

Did you read my original post? Does it sound as if I have an uncritical perspective on America? I have spent my life here, am the son of an officer in the U.S. Marines, and I see greatness and goodness in this country and many failings as well. Of what great or formerly great country is this not true? I believe England is basically good as well, despite its appalling history of imperialistic savagery, because of its enduring contributions to science, human rights, democracy, philosophy, literature: like America's, in fact.

"mindless anti-Americanism" i think that refers to people adopting the age old adage the enemy of my enemy... I am pro American in that i support the tens of millions of good Americans who read a little history and have some humility and concern for the globe and not just their homeland. However i doubt this is close to the majority and as far as the ruling class is concerned-and that includes every administration since the US got independence they have been anything but 'basically good'. more like basically bastards. Unless you consider the genocide of the native pop or the enslavement of the Africans a blip, never mind imperialism and aggression writ large first in the Americas then further afield. Basically awful.

"mindless anti-Americanism" i think that refers to people adopting the age old adage the enemy of my enemy... I am pro American in that i support the tens of millions of good Americans who read a little history and have some humility and concern for the globe and not just their homeland. However i doubt this is close to the majority and as far as the ruling class is concerned-and that includes every administration since the US got independence they have been anything but 'basically good'. more like basically bastards. Unless you consider the genocide of the native pop or the enslavement of the Africans a blip, never mind imperialism and aggression writ large first in the Americas then further afield. Basically awful.

then so was Shamir, who was a leading member of that group who sought to meet with Nazis in Syria during WW2. And Stern himself whose name adorns streets in Israel to this day.

You are certainly free to disagree. The authors you mention certainly would, I think, but I am not certain where you got the idea that I have to agree with them about everything. I do think they provide some very useful perspectives, but so do other authors I admire, such as the late Protestant theologian and sociologist Jacques Ellul, whose perspective on the Israel Palestinian conflict and on mindless anti-Americanism as stated in his book Betrayal of the West is very different from theirs and is perhaps closest to my own, though I am not in full agreement with Ellul either (Hedges has been influenced by Christian authors extremely similar to Ellul, so none of this is as simple as you think).

Basically good. WTF does basically mean. Does it allow for mushroom clouds over foreign cities and endless wars against those with notions of independence, like Vietnam Korea and others. Does it allow for Sharon et al to stand guard outside Sabra and Shatilla and to ravage Lebanon in the course of trying to install a puppet phalange leader, leaving some 20,000 dead? Does it refer to the leaders and not the public. In short wtf does basically good mean? Israel and the US basically good. Do those people who you so laboriously quote and requote ad absurdum agree? Hedges,Chomsky,Zunes,Khalidi? Well Fester?

"refusing to link a possible ceasefire & an easing of the blockade w/the release of shalit" Never mind Israel refusing to consider lifting the blockade in return for an extended ceasefire just beofre Cast Lead. You are one hell of a pompous hypocrite my friend. As for harming one hair on his head and what about the 9000 or so prisoners held in Israel, hundreds of them without trial or charge hundreds of them women and children. If there was any justice those women and children and Hamas legislators would never have spent a day in gaol, but as there is no such thing i think you can forget about pious warnings to hamas.He will only be harmed in all likelihood if an attempt is made to rescue him, though something tells me Israel might prefer that as an outcome so negating the need to negotiate. Some of your other spurious points on changing of the conditions by Hamas.Its bull crap fed you by rubbish reporting. "The issue was never the total number, which was settled almost three years ago: Hamas demanded the release of 1,400 prisoners, Israel countered with 1,000 and Hamas agreed." http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1130248.html Then read the opinion of someone involved in negotiations under the Olmert gov. http://www.ipcri.org/files/shalitpricetag.html now stop blathering your falsehoods.

he must be a nice chap, but by the time he wakes up from being lost in the academic & theoretical trap in his head & reconnect w/reality (which is what he'd claim he really is an expert on), history & reality will have surpassed him & his like, showing everybody, hopefully himself too, how foolish & impossible his position is. he'll probably sit in his room proving to himself that he's got something to teach others - (isn't it funny he considers himself a teacher of the jews? that he pretends to be a teacher on the ME is 'crazy' enough, seeing himself as capable of lecturing the jews is really t-h-e joke) - while his own country one day will be burning as well as sinking into the deep shit. interestingly enough he sees israel going in that direction now & thinks he can save it. reading his posts is interesting, but he's just an overblown 'humanitarian' w/a lot of bookish knowledge. why do you bother? the TB is a funny circus, but why make it less interesting rather than more?

i am fully aware of the issue. it is one of extreme difficulty. it is not a decision that i would want to make.

i have known jews who absolutely hated kastner. they felt that he had betrayed them. i suspect that they were right.

You wrote: "Personally, I like Denmark circa today." Speaking of Denmark circa today: "Now that flag [of Denmark] has become a symbol around the world of Denmark's contempt for another religion [Islam]." "Denmark's Problem with Muslims," NY Times, 12 Feb. 2006.

"MarkL, "let us not blame Hamas" - Cipora My life would be easier were I not called upon by ignorance to educate Jews. This is not an new debate in Israel Cipora. When and how do Jews redeem Jews. Back in 1953, a minor political figure in Israel, a spokesman for the Ministry of Trade and Industry, Rudolf Kastner, was accused by the radical right of being a Nazi collaborator. This matter ultimately brought the collapse of Prime Minster Moshe Sharett's government. The legal issue Cipora, was whether by bribing the Nazis was Kastner guilty of being rewarded by the saving of 600 Jewish souls from extermination in the Holocaust. The Israeli courts ruled that in Saving 600 Jews, Kastner had essentially sold his soul to the devil. Kastner, for saving 600 Jews, was shot to death by former LEHI gunment, Ze'ev Eckstein, Dan Shemer and Yosef Menkes. I understand where you come from Cipora.

As always Cipora you ignore the ISSUE. The ISSUE is not Hamas. Hamas is nothing but the catalyst. The ISSUE is whether Israel will redeem the Israeli or whether Israel will abandon him. I have made it VERY clear that this is my view. Shalit fell into Hamas hands because he and his fellows were asleep (literally or philosophically) on duty. What remains is the question of whether a Jew is to be redeemed or not. Hamas wins either way Cipora. Israel has it's choice of how it looses. You will grasp at any straw to avoid dealing with the remaining choice. So, it seems, will Bibi. If only he were honest or decent enough to out with the truth then perhaps the world will know.

To Gilad Shalit and his family, resting hopefully in Bibi Netanyahu's palm. His hand holds you up, and his lips purse. What is his intent, what has it always been. The lips purse further, and. . . PUFF! Then you are blown away. . . Bibi Netanyahu would risk his life to promote his career. But he will never risk his career to save a single Jewish life.

How can anyone claim that Bibi is wrong? If Hamas decides to kill Shalit the Palis and their supporters will never again be able to press for exchanges of prisonersrs, neither Hamas nor Hezballah, etc So now Hamas has to decide and they too are under pressure from the families of the prisoners to get their kin home. As usual the JEW/ISRAEL haters that post here are getting a free ride at deligitimization. WHY???

What makes a nation "good" is in the eye of the beholder. It depends upon a person's frame of reference and interests. If you support capitalism, unilateral warfare and the sujugation of brown people, you'd probably think the U.S. is terrific. Similarly, if you're willing to turn a blind eye to racism, apartheid, and an unjust legal system, you're likely to think Israel is swell too. Personally, I like Denmark circa today.

For instance, Israel has started many more wars than Iran. It's 5-0 on that score.

... show why the WWW took away his web site and news credentials. It also illuminates the tragedy that his ancestors somehow survived the trail of tears.

What you show here is collaboration with kidnappers, disrespect of the Geneva convention and disregard of humane values. This is not a game and people like you are surely not entitled to air such simplistic non logical comments. ...And you dont scare the French Jews, they will always make aliyah and defend Israel when necessary.

- (admirably so). hamas has only themselves to blame that they're incapable of setting boundaries for themselves & their demands. it began w/a few hundred, then thousand & more, refusing to link a possible ceasefire & an easing of the blockade w/the release of shalit. the inspiration from lebanon & the morbid kuntar affair must've been too much to resist. they've been using this one human life, a number one humanitarian concern for the whole of israel, as far as it goes for three & a half years now, believing they'd be able to continue to do so ad infinitum. how foolish of them. i don't believe gilad shalit's life is more in the balance now than before. it's probably as safe /unsafe as it's been till now. hamas is gonna feel the heat but beware of crumbling even one hair on his head anyway.

DL: "you seem to ignore the difference between a political movement imposed by force on the population of a country like Marxism was in Soviet Union and the actual population living in a country or City" !!!!!! The Farsi word he used was "rezime". There can be **no** disputing that fact. Now, look at that word, Daniel. It is one of the very few Farsi words that is instantly recognizable to an English-speaker. DL: "The difference would be pretty obvious to a schoolboy " YES IT IS, which is why your insistence that when he said "regime" he must have actually been saying Something Else is so very hilarious. Don't you get it, Daniel? YOU HAVE BEEN LIED TO, and you so deeply believe the **lie** that you must reject what he actually said in order to make his speech conform to the lie. He said "The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time" He did not say "Israel must be wiped off the map".

SDHD: "Prices have changed over the last 7 years, dummy." 1) You sit down to haggle over a contract. 2) You come to an agreement over the terms. 3) You sign that contract, which commits you to carrying out those terms. 4) You then ignore doing any of those things for 7 years. And when the other side demands that you finally pay up? SDHD: "Prices have changed over the last 7 years, dummy." Marvelous, isn't it? So I'll repeat: what is the point of negotiating an agreement with someone who will cheerfully rip up an existing agreement because: a) SINCE it refused to carry out the terms of that contract for 7 years b) THEN it can't be expected to carry them out now. How wonderfully zionist of you, SDHD.

This is and has always been a PR play for Hamas, as I've stated before Hamas just trots out this deal for PR coverage in the western media. Never serious about doing a trade. Shalit is worth more for PR advantage...by blaming Israel for the failure...than to trade him and be done with it. Now remember Hamas was recently foiled trying to kidnap or kill another IDF soldier so they could keep the body trading gig going. If they were serious it would be done, who wouldn't take 450 for 1? With 100...of the 450...of the terrorists having blood on their hands. It was a NO GO from beginning. Hamas was never serious, wake up folks.

When I join the Mafia i risk to be killed. When I join Etzland it's about the same. He could be happy home in France, but no, he must go and mark the gorilla. Serves him right.

"the day israel was established " .... you schemed for ways to conquer more territory and expell more Palestinians. Criticise the Arab position towards Israel in 1948 all you like. The reality today, known by most objective observers, is that Israel has rejected a comprehensive peace overture by the Arab World and Israel continues to make productive negotitiations with the Palestinians all but impossible.

Why? because you who espouse the justness of Hamas, will state that Hamas will cut off Shalit's testicles, which is an act of torture, however,since you will say torture is immoral, which it is, how can Hamas do this and still be just? And since you have avoided the question, possibly, hoping, maybe that your crude language will be forgotton, who are you to discuss human rights? Except from a completely biased one sided perspective, a view that adopts two seperate sets of laws, enforcement and punishment, based on subjective reasons, most likely fueled by hatred of one group. So umm, why do you start by explaining what you meant by Shalit being tortured, his manhood stolen while he is defenceless. Perhaps from there we can move forward, I will, and others too, will understand if you dont post back...

"Actually i guess you are right, had e just allowed ourselves to be killed as we did during ww2 i guess there would be no problem" Killed by whom? By Arabs? You and I both know who the aggressor here and who the victim is. You constantly play the victim card even though you occupy other people's land and use your military to destroy and crush another group of people.

Hamas has a great deal and they should take it. No other country would give so much for one soldier.

Israel has a history of negotiating in bad faith (despite their hype to the contrary), but... 1) If Israel could find, among its corrupt bureaucrats and crooked bandits, one honest broker to deal through already established channels, and... 2) Have that person assemble a list of Palestinian prisoners, ranked from most dangerous to release through least dangerous to release, and... 3) Release the 50% who rank as the least dangerous, as a goodwill gesture to boost negotiations... 4) Until Gilad were released, or until calculations were rebalanced, the Palestinians would be in the awkward spot of looking as if they have merchandise they apparently have not paid for. The more prisoners released, the more foreign leverage would be purchased in media abroad. The problem, as always, will be Israel's competing commercial interests. The deal would have to be obscured from certain Israeli industry chiefs unless they were monitored carefully. (They will convert the media leverage to cash).

"Israel`s systematic attack on Palestinian society is the primary reason for your lack of security." Jews have had a "lack of security" since 1920, when the Arabs in the region began massacring them without end. Basically, the excuse that Israel is attacking Palestinian society is bull. It's the hatred of Jews, particularly Jews who can defend themselves, which is the crux of the problem.

and instead of ASKING FOR THE RELEASE OF 1000 Prisoners of the 12.000 in the Israeli Jails, they might ask for 2 0 0 0 prisoners in the next negociations. Who can blame them, if they do. In the meantime it is the parents of Gilat who are sufferings, and may go back to France.

"Israel set the price with Samir Kuntar." Maybe they believe they overpaid once, and don't see the sense in doing so again. Keep crying, kid.

"Bibi: "Why must we pay for the right to sit with somebody?" Becasue you are being asked to pay for something that Israel agreed to buy in 2003, Bibi." Prices have changed over the last 7 years, dummy.

"Israeli soldiers are not kidnapped. They are prisoners of war." Prisoners of war are not ransomed and are allowed visits by the Red Cross. Shalit was kidnapped. According to the Geneva Conventions, it is illegal to kidnap a combatant and place a ransom demand on his head.

"Is he trying to create a "martyr" for Israel out of the sacrificial Shalit for an excuse to wage what the "right" calls "all out war"?" BSNews, isn't it obvious he doesn't want to release terrorists with blood on their hands in a location where they can attack Israelis again? Poor puddin'head. Your anti-Israeli sentiments have completely taken over where rationality should reign.

...it is a common troll. Note the usual talking points. And then the claims that Palestinians prisoners all got trials, they all get Red Cross visits, Israel buses in prisoner families, all bunk. These trolls do not even read the articles here. A trivial search turned up articles from Haaretz outlining many of the realities that thousands of Palestinian detainees face in Israeli prisons. The reality is nothing like this troll, "Israeli father", tried to pass off. If it was a real Israeli it would be aware of how Israel is now cracking down on all the human rights organizations that report the truth about Israel's harsh treatment of the Palestinians, it's national policy to hate Palestinians, everybody knows this, read the Likud Charter. But trolls do not read the articles, they are only here to troll. And if "Israeli father" actually lived in Israel, it would damned well know of Israeli policy especially in light of Hamas and Shalit. Israel set the price with Samir Kuntar.

The amount that one is willing to pay for something shows how much one values it. Supply and demand are basic laws of every transaction in the world. Israels negotiations with Hamas (and every other Arab group/state) are worth any amount of rhetoric in this respect.

When all Palestinians kidnapped by Israel are released. Fair is fair.

resistance? to what? the pals brought this on themselves..this is not about 1967, this is about 1964, 1948 and 1947. Resistance is a PR slogan to make anti semites (like bbs, a good ol boy from north carolina) feel better about justifying jew killing. if they want a state on the former egyptian or jordanian land, fine, let them accept israel proper as a jewish state now and forever, and when they stop calling ofr genocide against the jews, MAYBE they will get their own state to fester in... one question - assuming peace comes, and assuming it is based on WB & Gaza; if more "resistance" comes after they have their peace and their state, then what? then what can israel legally do about it? come on fellas, for once, say something that is non jew hating and intelligent.

the day israel was established we were attacked by 5 countries and we have been under attack ever since, but you would have me believe it was our responce that caused the trouble. Actually i guess you are right, had e just allowed ourselves to be killed as we did during ww2 i guess there would be no problem YEAH RIGHT and if i drive you someplace so you can kill someone am i innocent? Am i innocent if i build the bomb you use to kill people? unlike Shalit these criminals got trials with lawyers. they are also allowed to be seen by the red cross and israel busses in palestinians for visits. what does Shalit get? we give and give and give and it is the arabs that take and take and take and then demand more

Israelis know that it is a supreme duty to redeem captives, especially soldiers who were captured while carrying out their duty require by the state. But they also know that an exorbitant price should be rejected; see the example of R. Meir of Rothenburg (13th cent.) who ordered the community not to redeem him for the exorbitant price required of them and died in captivity. Israel agreed to release all the 450 hardened Palestinian activists, many with blood on their hands, all except for about the top 6 (including Barghouti), and require that about 100 of those released who killed Israelis sho be exiled to Gaza so they don't killed again. I understand the concern, although I would also have released the top 6 who don't seem to me that dangerous. It is now Hamas' turn to show some realism. If they don't, Shalit will have to sit in captivity longer, while Israel is getting some news or letters from him in exchange for the release of some Palestinian prisoners, as done before.

Let's for the moment say that Bibi gave in to Hamas' demands, an exchange made under Hamas' extortionate terms Next time around, Hamas kidnaps another IDF soldier, then there we go again, another 4 years of fruitless negotiations It's really not all that surprising that those of you that haven't even visited Israel or Palestine are the characters with the biggest mouths and windiest opinions Back seat drivers and Kibbitzers are a worthless lot, contributing nothing to solving the problems, pretending that you are of some importance If you're really so fired up, get your backsides over there and pitch in physically, what's needed is perspiration not worthless inspiration

Marie, can you be so naive as to believe that "things will calm down once Iran gets her equalizer?' Haven't you seen the way that the Iranian leadership has treated its own people, beating, killing, jailing, etc. for wanting the truth to come out about their election results? And they are known to be behind many of the terrorist organizations in the mideast, smuggling weapons to them and so forth. Iran's leadership knows no international law, as was shown when they first violated it by taking the American embassy staff hostage. They shift between threatening and double-talking lying, delaying, etc. and things will only calm down once the opposition in Iran who care more about the people's wellbeing than about their own power take over.

Would you say the same to an American father? I think I can safely say that not only I but most Americans would be sickened if you did. Before you start the usual nonsense about how different the situation of Americans is, I suggest you read, just for starters, Collateral Damage: America's War Against Iraqi Civilians, by Chris Hedges and Laila Al-Arian and Inside the Resistance, by Zaki Chehab. But, no, you will not find me adopting the simplistic dualities that you do for Israelis and Palestinians in response to the horrifying wrongs inflicted on Iraqi civilians. As Orwell pointed out, there is no good versus evil when it comes to modern nation states, but I think the US and Israel are basically good.

Easy for you?

the vast majority of Palestinian prisoners have no blood on their hands. They are political prisoners. And Israel rarely gives them a fair trial by any objective standards. Israel's systematic attack on Palestinian society is the primary reason for your lack of security.

kill one palestinian prisoner a day. a public beheading. live on tv :-) same thing goes for the rockets...each time one is fired, israel launches a similar "crude unguided" missile back into somewhere in gaza...can the jew haters agree that it would be fair if israel lobbed crude unguided missiles into gaza strip and wherever they land they land? is that ok?

...until the illegal occupations and the inhumane subjugation of the Arab Palestinians is ended, it does not matter if you do not release ANY prisoners. They are going to keep on coming as long as Israel keeps stealing their land and resources. Any human being on the planet would do the same. In fact, if Americans were occupied by Israel we would be far far better at inflicting pain on the occupiers. It would be A-Team meets Mission Impossible.

Bibi can say anything, true or not, he doesn't care, everything is calculated, not accurate. He is a man who lives in half-truths, dark shadows, back corners, the nooks and crannies of fact. Final offers have been given to Palestinians for one thing to the other for the last 60 years and yet there is always another final offer, peace deal, truce, prisoner swap. Wake up Israel, your Prime Minister lives in a twisted world of the filth and garbage of fabrication and manipulation, and that is the same place that rats flourish. Elect Gilad Prime Minister and he can negotiate his own release.

"Israeli politicians do not care about your sons and daughters i the IDF. If they are captured say goodbye and get on with your life. Israeli politicians view your sons and daughters as expendable pieces of meat. " Chris, you have a very interesting way of looking at this, but let me explain my point of view. Over the years Israel has let go thousands of convicted criminals in return for maybe 20 Israeli hostages. Thos convicted criminals and terrorists have gone on to kill more than 800 Israelis after being released. So to bring home 20 of our children we have killed 800 other Israeli children. That is approximately 40 Israelis killed for every 1 that was released Does that really make sense to you? Had Israel not released those 20 then 760 Israelis would be alive today, and had we never changed our policy of never negotiating with terrorists maybe the 20 that have been taken would have been much lower.

but at the expense of other lives? I am glad that Bibi drew the line, to give into their demands only says in very loud letters, keep on kidnapping, it is worth a few thousand murderers to be set free, and ultimately thousands of Israeli lives.... Is the rest of the world that stupid?

Netanyahu could easily send someone to Gaza with a suitcase full of cash, and arrange a direct link to the captors. Why does he use a Russian intermediary? Are the only Israelis willing to talk to the Pals peaceniks? Or is there some Israeli private, financial network whose corrupt overlapping (anti-Israel?) interests would necessarily be exposed if Netanyahu sent people he trusted to establish a new network in Gaza?

Within the last 20 months I was in a number of cities in North America, England, France, Belgium, Norway and afew others. I found that anti Israel feelings were very high among Moslems living in those countries, the same Moslems never had anything good to say about their adopted countries either, and yes there are left wing supporters of their position. However,I find that the majority of people, and some of them don't give a damn abou Israel and don't like the Jews, have a feeling of hate for the Moslems. Now, this is my observation, I didn't try to lead the people I talked to into one opin ion or another, I'm not a Jew or a Muslim that the people I talked to would feel they have to be biased in favour of one or the other group. I find that the news media whether in Europe or North America is very left wing and is not reporting the feeling of the people but reports its own feeling and prejudices.

""Ahmadinejad: "The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time""" For someone so obsessed with proper and correct legal terminology Johnboy you seem to ignore the difference between a political movement imposed by force on the population of a country like Marxism was in Soviet Union and the actual population living in a country or City. The difference would be pretty obvious to a schoolboy with a basic rudimentary knowledge of history and world politics but not to someone who deliberately wants to "exceptionalise" and delegitimise Israel at any cost even if it defies common sense.

Cutting off a kidnapped soldiers or word POWs testicles is called toture now why would you someone who has fldefended the morality and the goals of hamas as just, how you can stand stating that cutting off a defenceless man's testicles just is beyond me. Unless you are looking at their religion and nationality in which case I understand and feel sorry for you But thanks for clarifyng your position on the morality if Hamas and your own views on justice and torture

The usual retinue of anti-Israel posters here shedding crocodile tears for the fate of Shalit. The young man is a casualty of war- no competent nation state would give Hamas the "terms" it seeks. As always, Hamas overplays its hand.

it must cost the kidnappers more than their hostage is worth. I preferred the original response from Israel, "we will not negotiate with terrorists." There must not be another movefrom the pals that endangers any kidnapping of Israeli's or their exchange for mutiple terrorists. It would be nice if the pal prisons were shot, one per day until Shalit is released. Just a thought....

L: "2. You can`t steal what already belongs to you" Israel does not claim that the West bank already belongs to it, Lnrd. L: "3.Iran is the only UN member state that has threatened to wipe another country off the map" Hmmmmmmm... Ahmadinejad: "The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time" Reagan: "The march of freedom and democracy will leave Marxism and Leninism on the ash heap of history." They seem pretty similar to me, Lnrd. So if Ahmadinejad was threatening to nuke Israel then The Gipper was signalling that he planned to nuke the Kremlin. Correct?

No Kameel. It is the Arabs that should try peace for a change and stop trying to steal israeli lands. We are strong and united and this so called world turning against us, you mean the Islamic sharia countries who spew terrorism and lies to themselves and everybody else it is you who should be worried for once we develop an alternative energy source for the world, you and your buddies will disappear into the vortex of time. The world will judge you by your contributions of which the Muslims account for very little. Perhaps you should reconsider your position. Only an inferior complex would mention a superior one. Your time is running out kameel.

Israel should buy the S-300 from Russia for a premium (say double or even triple what Iran is prepared to pay for it) on the condition that Russia does not sell it to Iran. Russia would still have a contract (and a far more lucrative one at that) Israel would obtain a state of the art air defence system (which it desparately needs in light of the tiny airpace it defends), and further improve its blossoming military and economic relationship with Russia. Iran on the otherhand would be further isolated as one of its only friends in the international community would have abondoned it. Everybody wins (except Iran).

Keep feeling strong and united. Tip for you: for how long..? bearing in mind that the whole world will be against YOU, soon. try something else for a change. Peace for example, without greed for land grab and superiority complex.

It is obvious from the context of Russia signalling its willingness to consider sanctions and from other indications that the "harsh statements" were against the Iranian nuke program.

hamas are left holding a hot potato.

From this end it seems that you have read a number of antisemitic headlines in various publications and regurgitated them in a somewhat idiotic composition. 1. The organ harvesting had nothing to do with the IDF. It was a business run from your neck of the woods. Do some more research. 2. You can't steal what already belongs to you. 3.Iran is the only UN member state that has threatened to wipe another country off the map you too would be worried if you lived in Israel 4.the world I live in is very different to yours bungleboy. Get educated it might help you get out of that trailer park you live in.

Israeli politicians do not care about your sons and daughters i the IDF. If they are captured say goodbye and get on with your life. Israeli politicians view your sons and daughters as expendable pieces of meat.

Medvedev made harsh statements on the Iranian issue. Yeah... well, no one should expect the Russians to have grace or cordiality. Though I wish Haaretz reported what was said. I'm willing to bet, National Security advisor Uzi Arad... had something to do with that outburst. Everyone knows, Uzi Arad's prevalence for dressing people down... not only with his sharp and vicious tongue.

My heart goes out to Shalit and his family. BUT we can't make every other Jew a target to bring him home. This catch 22 situation is a tragedy. The best solution MAKE IT TO COSTLY FOR HAMAS TO CONTINUE TO HOLD HIM _ NO MORE PRISONER RELEASE NO MORE TALKS UNTIL SHALIT IS FREED

Bibi: "Why must we pay for the right to sit with somebody?" Becasue you are being asked to pay for something that Israel agreed to buy in 2003, Bibi. Sticking to the terms of a contract ain't much of a "demand", is it now... Bibi: "It's absurd. It's unacceptable." It is a "prior agreement", Bibi. Israel is *supposed* to be very keen on such thing. Well, they are, unless it is inconvenient to Bibi.... at which point it becomes an "absurd demand". Bibi: "This is no peace process." Looking in the mirror again, are you, buddy-boy? Bibi appears to think that being asked to abide by a "prior agreement" is utterly "absurd". At which point, of course, you have to ask yourself what is the point of negotiating any "new agreement" with such a gentleman?

never, ever, not even once. hamas are not to be blamed for any of their acts ever.

Lord, which planet you are living in, may be you are from the chosen world for choosen people. Now you want to swallow the entire world that israel fought all the defensive war, So do you steal Arab lands in self defense too? do you want to attack Iran in self defense too (while Iran did not attack you)? so do your IDF theft organs in self defense too? so do your aparthied country apply apartheid rules on Pals in self defense too? If so, then the meaning of self defense is required to be changed which is unkown to global people.

Granted, posters like BBS News will never be able to understand what it would involve to raise their own level of thought and expression here above some primitive level of Israel baiting (a form of expression with its provenance rooted in Jew baiting, of course), but when you see a post titled like his, why do you even consider it for publication? Please post this response to it, at any rate.

Poor Shalit this just sealed his doom...he's never going to see his family again =( Makes me sick that their are actually people that defend hamas...they have no humanity! Even if they accept this offer for Shalit they will just go ahead an try to kidnap more IDF soldiers...Hamas make the deal better then this is not going to get i mean 1000 prisoners for 1?

You're an uneducated byproduct of the Islamic propaganda machine that feeds ignoramuses like your self B.S and lies. If you bothered to investigate history you would find out that every war Israel has fought was defensive. The offensive wars fought in Lebanon and Gaza was in rsponse to unabated rocket fire on civilians. Your stupidity is only surpassed by your hatered of Jews. Thank you we need you to keep us strong.

That is the real issue for USrael. Clinton is trying to sweet talk the Saudis into telling China they will meet China's shortfall of oil imports if China supports sanctions against Iran... surely the Saudis realize they too will lose favor with USrael when their usefulness runs out.

Israeli soldiers are not kidnapped. They are prisoners of war. I hope Shalit is released soon, but not unless Hamas gets every single prisoner released.

Nethanyahu was ever serious about getting Shalit free. He should have been more honest about it. He's never favored hostage-negotiations.

Shalit has already given three years of his life for Israel. If it takes the liberation of many Palestinians to get him back, get him back. Playing with the life of this man and of his parents is an absolute shame. I can see how French Jews are traumatized and won't immigrate to Israel for fear the same thing happens to their kids. France always got its nationals freed when they were detained in the other part of the world, how come Bibi can't free a soldier detained one hour drive from Tel Aviv ?

Israel could offer Hamas the entire world and they would not let shalit go and you know this. The fact that the entire world sits on there ass and watches Shalit rot away with no Red Cross visits is a joke. The US EU should be embarrassed and the Red Cross should run and hide. Israel should not let one visitor and Palastinian in jail ever again. Gilad won't be relesaed becuase that is Hamas intentions to use him til he dies. He might be dead already and you blame Israel, your a nut case Natalie. It's sad that you work for the Gov't a waste of my tax payer money.

when you take your planes all the way to harm your neighbours or other peoples, you desrve to be shot down. other words, self defence. when you learn to stop attacking the peoples of the world with your attack missiles, then there would be no need for use of any defence system. simple as that. yep like 1,2,3. go home isreal, you have transgressed many bounds. enough is enough!!!!!!!!!

Is he trying to create a "martyr" for Israel out of the sacrificial Shalit for an excuse to wage what the "right" calls "all out war"? Like the forgotten Sderot? Except for that PR stand you have there...

Ther have been many recent attempts to kidnap more IDF soldiers. Rewarding Hamas with the release of thousands of prisoners does not make Israel and our soldiers more secure. Just look at what happened in Lebanon 25 years ago when Reagan gave weapons to terrorists to gain the release of kidnap victims. We should be thankful that Netanyahu is looking out for the best interests of an entire country. As a parent it is possible to sympathize with the Shalit family. What do we tell the families of future victims who lose loved ones to released terrorists with blood on their hands. What do we tell the parents of the next soldier who is kidnapped. It is time to find those who kidnapped Shalit and give them a one way ticket to meet Allah.

Here is a deal: How about we trade Shalit for whatever Hamas decides? Fair enough for you? Numb skulls Bibi was elected to make decisions. This one is not yours.

In any negotiation the offers eventually have to come to an end. We all know that Hamas will never agree to Israel's final offer and will always up their own demands whenever they think Israel is about to agree to theirs. Bibi is correct by not continue sweetening the deal. Hamas gets everyone they want but some go into exile...too bad. They only want a better deal so they can hold a victory parade in Gaza rather than Damascus.

Since he was so gracious to Medvedev in allowing the Russians to drop off a message of noncooperation, was that delay in delivery for 2 weeks or a month?

Bibi has finally let the cat out of his bag. He wants sanctions that hurt the Iranian public at large. "What is needed, the premier told reporters after the meeting, are sanctions that would reduce Iranian imports and exports of oil." This is the OIL Embargo of the 1970s writ large. A hint to Bibi - The American people did not side with OPEC as a result of the embargo. We got angry at them and united as a people. What you propose will unite the Iranian people, not divide them. But then you and your administration that Gazans will resent Hamas if you make their children live in unheated hovels and tents with little drinkable water and less electricity. Now that you've OK'd the Russians opening an embassy in Gaza, maybe progress can be made on lifting the embargo through use of the Diplomatic Pouch. Russia might import spaghetti.

I can understand if Israel was willing to announce once and forever that a captive soldier would not be redeemed. After all, he is a soldier. But why can Israel not be HONEST about this? I would much rather Israel be HONEST about things than lie. There is really no advantage in lying. Indeed, in the case of Gilad Shalit, continuing to lie, continuing to pretend that he might be redeemed, only endangers other IDF soldiers. Simply admitting the truth, that the government of Israel will never redeem Gilad Shalit carries some immediate consequence, but it also means that Hamas will never bother to capture another soldier. Why cannot Israel be honest? Honesty is a good policy. There is nothing wrong with being honest. Gilad Shalit is on his own. Israel will never redeem him. Because redeeming Gilad Shalit would encourage the taking of other captives. Gilad Shalit is a goner. Let no other IDF soldiers fall asleep on duty.

.....but there comes a time when the Israeli government must draw a line and say, "that's it." Bibi did that, and the rest of us ought to respect the line he has drawn.

Sadly for Shalit, the main goal for both sides is to appear to win a victory. It would be a loss for Hamas to accept a "take it or leave it" offer such as this one. On the other hand, Bibi will never give Hamas what they want. Result? Stalemate.

It is clear that Gilad Shalit remains an embarrassment to the government of Israel. His value is insignificant. He is not to be redeemed. Ok, I understand that. It is a rational position. But let us not blame Hamas for the decision of Netanyahu. Israel's offer for Shalit is final. Hamas may oblige Israel by executing Gilad Shalit so that he will become the victim instead of the unredeemed captive. Why do I think Hamas is so cruel as to keep him alive to torment Israel?

Shalit will be a very old when he's released, if he's released at all. Bibi could secure his freedom tomorrow, but he's too concerned with his popularity among right wing loons.

Send Lieberman

This poor kid is the new Ron Arad. He is a pawn in Bibi's gambit and is never going to see his family again.

'A senior Israeli official who attended said Medvedev made "harsh statements on the Iranian issue, the likes of which we've never heard from him." '. What does this mean; what did he say; was it pro or anti Israel? Is the journalist asleep?

Let's just hope that Shalit is still alive. Also, is Max still working there, and being really friendly yet awkward with the Netzer people there? :P And how many times a day do you check facebook at haaretz? :P

when and if a peace deal is made. Maybe twenty years from now. Salaam/Shalom

He doesn't run anything. He is window dressing!!! Putin will sell the missiles (remember Georgia then and now) and all will be well. Russia nor China will vote for sanctions, nada, nope, not one sanction with teeth. Stop going around the world begging others to jump on board with your madness. Things will calm down once Iran gets her equalizer. Days are over where Israel will trounce her neighbors at will and it is about time. Return the stolen land. Stop with your outrageous BS. Peace may follow. Stop crying victim; you are the aggressor and have been since day one.