Netanyahu: Extending settlement freeze will cause government to collapse
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has conditioned upgrading to direct negotiations with Israel on a continued halt on West Bank construction.
By Barak Ravid and Avi IssacharoffContinuing the construction freeze in West Bank settlements after it expires on September 26 would be impossible politically and would bring down the coalition, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told Spanish Foreign Minister Miguel Moratinos in Jerusalem on Wednesday.
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Benjamin Netanyahu at the Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, July 26, 2010. |
Moratinos told Netanyahu that the European Union's position was that Israel should continue the freeze.
Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has conditioned direct talks with Israel on a continued construction freeze.
Jerusalem will be closely monitoring the deliberations of the Arab League foreign ministers meeting today in Cairo. A subcommittee on the Arab peace initiative is expected to announce its continued support for indirect talks between Israel and the Palestinians, giving Arab League backing for Abbas' decision not to begin direct talks with Israel. The Palestinian position is that as long as no progress is made in the indirect talks there is no point in beginning direct talks.
Palestinian sources told Haaretz that Abbas seeks unequivocal clarifications from the United States that the framework for direct talks will include a declaration that the Palestinian state will be based on the June 4, 1967 borders and that border adjustments will be based on exchanges of territory. The PA also wants an Israeli declaration that the construction freeze in the settlements will continue and that construction in East Jerusalem will stop.
Although the PA can expect criticism of its position from the United States and even some Arab states it appears to be more worried at present about losing popularity on the Palestinian street if it were to resume direct talks with Israel now.
During yesterday's meeting Netanyahu reportedly told Moratinos that the Palestinians' conditions for renewing direct talks are unrealistic. He also told the Spanish foreign minister that only after a final-status agreement is reached will it be possible to drum up sufficient public support in Israel to push it through. Trying to do so now would bring down the ruling coalition and damage the peace process, Netanyahu said.
Several senior Palestinian and Arab officials have indicated that Abbas will tell the Arab League foreign ministers today that indirect talks with Israel should continue. But Moratinos told Netanyahu, Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman and President Shimon Peres that Abbas during their meeting in Amman on Tuesday that he was leaning toward agreeing to the resumption of direct talks. Moratinos said Abbas only needs to feel that he has the support of the Arab League for his decision.
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Bibi has to make a hard choice right now and extend the settlement freeze and bring Abbas to the talking tanle. The extension of settlement freeze does have the potential to bring down this government but at it could save Israel from the imminent danger of deligitimization and eventual collapse. Make a touch call Bibi for the good of all people - israili and Palestinians. Don't bow to the settlers as they will bring the country down.
The Pals didn't bite the first time--they had all these months to agree to direct negotiations, but didn't. Time should stop standing still for these dysfunctional people.
build settlements in in america and see how the americans like it. you can do it isreal, they are your friends!
With a terrible right-wing government like this one, that sounds better than the way things are now...
Freesing would be impossible politically and would bring down the coalition, I never heard such an excuse. I think he has to say it from his wife. He has to decide [peacetalking or keeping the same problems.
Two governments that listen not to their people. I am an American and have been frustrated with US Middle East policy since 1968. Before 1968, when we decided to side with Israel, there were NO Arab-led terror attacks against US interests. Only after we supported Israel did the Arabs start attacking us. Let's face it, there is no way to be an honest and balanced broker in this conflict if you are outright giving one side billions of dollars in aid, the most out of any country. The hypocrisy is disgusting!
Well if this happens my flag will go out in top! the only solution is a ONE State in which every citizen will have the same rights - like in S.Africa after the state terror apartheidssystem. Than Israel is a democratic state.
The picture with the article on 26/7 reveals someone who is drawn, tired, and most of concern, a loss of weight. Is there something here that we should know about.
Pressure to enter direct negotiations...(otherwise no more money) Then Pressure not to leave the direct talk ( otherwise no more money) In a few decades a brand new peace plan propose by the new US President. A few months for indirect talk. Than pressure for direct talks........ go back to the beginning of this post and continue .
BUT THE SAME SHOULD BE APPLY TO ISRAEL
seems israel is devided and has no leader.Some want peace others want time to put more settlers!
He might even try to get a couple of Kadima MKs to cross the floor. That way Livni could be convinced to be dept. PM instead of PM. Likud-Kadima would have 56 seats, and will Labour would have a 67-seat majority sans extemists and anti-democratic theocrats.
The last thing Bibi would ever go along with is a Likud / Kadima / :Labor coalition it would give the left wing branch of the government 41 - 27. Bibi would be more like a minor player in a left wing coalition. He also prefers Barak to Livni he can deal with Barak much easier that Livni. Barak is happy with defense and so doesnt't rock the boat to much. He might not like all his coalition partners but at least they are mostly right wing and he is supposed to be leading a right wing party. The coalition system is always going to good governments left or right so the ruling party needs to just make the best of a bad situation and unite with parties who are closest to what your party is supposed to stand for. He naturally doesn't want to be running a left wing if he is then he will never pass any right wing policies.
What the prime minister say maybe true and so be it. This goverment has been because of the religious and the other right wing parties. They do not want a settlement they want to rid Israel of every non Jew. As a Jew, I am ashamed.
the possiblity of a civil war is no-sense. No one of the settlement would shot to any police man or soldier of the Israeli army they are too israelis. The most posible reaction is that the settlers would'nt go out of their homes, so their would be the army mobilized to take them out, this would be a social trauma that would affect Israely society . And surely palestinian would continue their acctivities as before likke in the other peace accords... That can lead to a dramatic scenario : the radicalisation of the Israeli society, like in the liitle scale expulsion in the Sinai helped the building of the Kach movement in Israel, that arrives to enter in the Kneset.. Or like in the Gazan expulsion, from this moment the Israeli left disapear as a possible leadership of Israel (being the oposition big party Kadima of Center instead of Labor) So continuing to atack in the settlements is only a way of radicalising all Israely society. That in a generation can be talking about more raddical possiblities to arrive to peace. In my opinion ther is no peace possiblity for our generation for peace . The only way would be d to teach the next generation in the basis of Jewish real values : unicity. Because how to repare the exterior conflicts without working in our inner ones first ( poverty, division between National Religious, Haredim and Hilonism....)
If I were the Palestinians I'd allow further construction so that when the land is eventually ceded to the Palestinians and becomes a part of their state they'd have these structures and infrastructure in place. It's easier than building it themselves. As far as the settlers who occupy these places go, if they decide to stay they'd become Palestinians. Palestinian Jews. Israel has Arabs, Palestine will have Jews. It's the same thing! Settlers,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Enjoy!
Palestinians in israel are not new immigrants. they are there for long time,since the Roman expelled jews from that land.
or he has to go!
Firstly the settlements is none of the regions , or THE region with more birth rates in Israel. There is normal to see families of 7-12 childrens son in natural growth ther is a Need of Homes for the new generation as in all the world, the situation can be sustained eternally And we want to stop construccion to what? A "palestinian peace". In Arafat's own words: "Peace for us ( the palestinans) means Israel's destruccion, and nothing else" (Israel by Martin Gilbert page 467) So we don't want more Oslo accord or Gaza Expulsion or any other step that led to streght the terrorism agains us as in the Intifadas... ( when we want to firm a normal peace and they take the oportunity to make "palestinian pace")..
the PLO/Fatah, like the Arab League, wanted the end to a Jewish majority state and a return to 1947 prior to the partition plan, when the the mandate had a 2/3 Arab majority. Well, times have changed, and finally the Arab League (well, some of them) have woken up. As long as Israel doesn't annex the West Bank, they shouldn't allow Israeli citizens to live their UNLESS those citizens purchase land legally.
isrl wants peace only after they have taken all the land they want. i wonder does this make it ok afor isrl but not the pals? thing is the majority of that land was in arab hands for thousands of years. u would displace them to make room for non indiginous people of those lands? yeah we see how u think no one matters if they are not jews. pfft.
Let them stay and become dual citizens then. Like American Jews.
The W.Bank is very small place for so many colonizers!
What motivation does Abbas really have to enter direct negotiations? Since the western liberal press and the Arabic illiberal press (and much of the rest of the world) blame the catastrophe of Gaza on Israel, why should he move? He wants the outcome of the negotiations to be determined and guaranteed before before he negotiates - but that is not negotiation! The long waiting game, while he can be seen as a blameless and shameless victim, has been bought by well-intentioned people for too long - but why should he end it - for peace? - when so much accrues to him by refusing to move?
Some form of a building freeze is absolutely elementary. You can't negotiate the division of a pizza when one side keeps eating it (see post #16). This basic truth was understood even by Dumbya Bush, which is why it was put in phase 1 of his Roadmap, and why Sharon committed to it. (Both were businessmen.) If Netanyahu cannot get his coalition colleagues to accept this easy step, then his government will never accept the really painful steps that go with a real peace agreement. Netanyahu is wasting everybody's time when presenting his government as going for peace. It will never happen with this coalition. Netanyahu can get a majority for peace, in a coalition between Likud, Kadima, Labor (68 MKs), supported from the outside by 14 more of Meretz and the Arabs. Even the Haredim (16 MKs) will agree to peace if a good part of Jerusalem will be kept. (They are not interested in the West Bank.) Netanyahu is stuck in his coalition because of some political fears from the Lieberman. The man is a political coward, the like of whom never before appeared on the Israeli scene.
"......If Netanyahu cannot get his coalition colleagues to accept this easy step, then his government will never accept the really painful steps ... etc," That's it.
Obama has now up the stakes with a secret agreement with Egypt to back at UN the PA declaring a state on 67 greenline if Israel backs out of Roadmap. PA will use same UN resolution that Israel used to create a state, making it hard for Israel to denounce it directly.
We should be thrilled at the prospect of a new government in Israel. Then, maybe, the world would have hope for some good faith negotiations on the real issues. There is no hope with the current obstructionist government dominated by the interests of right wing settlers.
let it fall, with the criminals in the government there wont be any progress in peace, you want peace get liberman out and the right wing and get livni in you wont fall and progress could happen, you dont like it next election is soon there will be someone else instead of you who can make peace or at least try
Netanyahu is unmasked by Peres, who knows the P.M. very well. So stop the charade and stop blaming Abbas for not accepting the direct talks it is all trickeries nothing else. Work for one state for jews and palestinians this is the only option left.
This hodge-podge of an Israeli Government is too weak to make peace. Too many divisive elements pulling in different directions. Its not an unrealistic request to suspend all building on occupied land whilst negotiations are being held.
Bye Bibi!
There is no doubt that the freezing of settlement shall only stop the expansion of the true Jewish state. And such thing can bring a goverment down. Israel has the legal right to build where they want and whenever they want in their land like UK and the USA do.
Correct but why announce OF GOVT falling? Short and to the point BB..BUILD,BABY BUILD. No more freezing.To freeze means bowing down means giving up Israel's sovereingnty . Obama is in big trouble with his RATINGS DOWN BY A GREAT MARGINE.You are the PM of Israel,not the POODLEof Abass.
If stopping the expansion of settlements would bring down the government, then what would vacating them do in the case of a final peace settlement? Excuses, excuses to propagate the colonization of the occupied territories.
If stopping the expansion of settlements would bring down the government, then what would vacating them do in the case of a final peace settlement? Excuses, excuses to propagate the colonization of the occupied territories.
Obama has been trying to bring down this government from day 1 in the hope he will be able to indirectly help get Livni elected and in return she will be a loyal puppet who will say yes Mr President whenever told to do something no matter what it is. Only now is Obama starting to come to terms with the idea Bibi is here to stay. Now for no good reason Bibi blurts out this will bring down my government so Obama strategy from now on will be concentrate on settlements so he can bring down the government.
Remember his blurting after Syria attack.
Just a reminder: Who leaked the confidential US documents?A Pakistan's double game, Iran's meddling in Afghanistan on the side of Taliban, corruption in Kabul and the high civilian death toll were common knowledge before. So who profited from dropping 91,000 confidential documents in the lap of Wikileaks.org website this week? Why only classified US military documents? And how does the leak tie in with the undercover Washington-London feud in Barak Obama's term in office.
None too soon.
Excellent news from Bibi. Israel's Government will fall if illegal settlement freeze continues. Brilliant! Continue the freeze.
Wrong because not only BB will remain in Office but also Israel WILL BUILD AS HE PROMISED THE ISRAELI PEOPLE .No going back at all. His announcement of Govt falling is mere political rhetoric to see where his thoughts FALLS. It will not be the demize of the Govt,but the THE ONES who will not benefit will be the Pals .
So there is another good reason to continue the freeze.
This coalition was doomed from the start. Time for an invitation to Kadima. Otherwise Labour will drop out soon anyway and Yisrael Beitenu, Shas et al continue to embarrass. Time for a broad coalition.
Way too much focus globally has been put on the settlements and Bibi knows this. Israel will further become isolated if it continues to expand the settlements. The Pals have played this perfectly and Israels position is untenable. Bravo Palestinians,your state is closer than most believe.
You didn't learn a thing in WW11 did you? Italy was soundly defeated for her being allied w/ Nazi Germany. There will not be a palestinian state unless Jordan okay's it and grants them their own land in Jordan, ( like that's gonna happen after they tried to kill the Jordanian King some years back.) No one wants the Pals, ask Lebanon or the other Arab states that hold them in camps forever.
Not to mention your anti-Pal beliefs and misunderstanding of international law.
"No one wants the Pals....hold them in camps forever" And you accuse others of not having learned anything from WW II, and accuse them of anti-Semitism?
it is not anti-Semitic to point out that the settlement project is wrong.
Let the government fall and have new elections and let the people of Israel decide about their future. Do we wish to have an extreme nationalist (fascist), messianic 17th century religious state in permanent state of war with its neghbours or do we prefer a modern democratic egaliterian secular one living in peace ?
17th extreme nationalistic (fascist)messianic state.Your conclusion is somewhat ASKEW. The majority of the Israelis are secular,you have got it all twisted an wrong.Wakey wakey the neighbors you talk about are the enemies who want to destroy the DEMOCRATIC country called ERETZ YISRAEL.
Right wing types know what is needed! A war! A war will unite Israel behind Bibi and buy some time. Now, the BIG question, a war with whom?
Iran, Syria, Lebanon each one has make the war cry very audible. Ask Obama which war to join, he finances several. Not w/ America's okay.
A good old war with full efficient communication will unite israelis behind Bibi and his team...as always !! The whole worlds will condemn but of course Israel will victimize.....
Why do you assume all Israeli's will either support a war or rally behind Bibi? Hasn't it occurred tot you that the Israelis that are inevitably killed in these conflicts are fathers, mothers, sons and daughters? I haven't met a single Israeli who relishes war, rather they fear it. They fear it, but they're all motivated by a strong survival instinct and they're smart, consequentially they tend not to lose wars. That's not the same as wanting one, but I doubt someone of the puerile opinion such as yourself would be capable of understanding that.
Their 'plan' is not acceptable to either party. Building Israel is a must and w/ Jews who are the legal owners and natural care givers of the Holy Land.
As you so rightly inply The should all butt out. Abass the gutless wonder. He thinks the same ay as his erswhile chum Arafat that gor them nothing in the end.The freeze should not continue,and Netayahu shouldn't have announced his Govt will fall? Why should it.First time to rid labor from its midst.As for FORWARD KADIMA? We know exactly what the result would be should they take over.NEVER,NEVER I say.
No
1. Israel - Jewish majority, Arab minority. Capital Tel Aviv. Increase Arab population to 25% by slowly accepting refugees. 2. Gaza - Islamic Republic of. 3. Samaria - Arab majority, Jewish minority. A full democracy. 4. Judea/Palestine- Mixed population and leadership, full democracy, capital is Jerusalem united, completely demilitarized and open to all religions. Recognized world-wide as a sacred land. This state will have immigration laws for Jews and Arabs that will not change the fundamental demographics. Includes finalization of any other claims. Removal of all borders, fences, walls and blockades. Closest to reality and based on historical grounds.
Move all the Arabs from Israel. They have Mecca, and the Abab States, we have Jerusalem and all of Israel. How's that?
No israel, No Palestine. One State Solution is the best for all. One Man, One Vote, Equality for all inhabitants. Equal Pay for Equal Work, Equal Water Rights. No Apartheid, No Segregation...A Very True Secular Democrac Let us call it: “State of Holy Land”.
Here we go again. The train is coming around the mountain , the train is coming around the mountain and when it comes, we are suppose to say toot toot. And we have been saying toot toot for the last 60 years very diligently and we see no train has come. The Us says the rhyme, London said the rhyme, the Quartet said the same and the Muslim world ( the leaders ) said toot toot. Oh the wonderfull people of the world , when you would ever realize this double talk.
Speaks volumes about the state of the State of Israel.
Seriously, where else in the world?
We're the 'chosen people', Jake... but not sure exactly what we were chosen for... to make our neighbors miserable forever?
Just like the Torah says If you don't like Israel, move. No one's holding you there against your will, are they? What a hypocrite, you enjoy the freedom and liberty of the land you hate. One for the books, you are an anti Israeli non Jewish fraud.
Does the Torah include the Palestinians in that advise - if you don't like Israel, move?
to ensure the survival of Netanyahu's government.
no, Netanyahu thinks that's Obama's job
The state that Israel forecast for them is unviable, with no water, no army, inside "security" fence, without Jerusalem east, thigh control of their imports, travel restrictions to and from Gaza. The only good long term solution is One state with equal rights for all
sorry the mistake
Then a just peace agreement would certainly bring down the Israeli government. The PA needs to take unilateral action. Either declare themselves a state or disband and leave a one-state solution.
What Netanyahu is saying has a double effect: On the one hand he's almost saying it as it is, and on the other hand, he is again hestiating between two options. Either he is excusing himself vis a vis the right-wingers for deciding to continue the freeze, and preparing them for it, or he is telling the whole world "save me from my coalition".
Will he succeed now? This wolf in sheep skin.
BB you did enough damages Free Israel, Free the WB and get out of here !
Genocide for what reason here? You have the same logic as those you describe
just because I humiliate, rob, rape and murder hundreds of thousands of my own people,doesn't mean that you are correct. And you don't think something's wrong with THIS logic.
THINKS THE SETTLEMENT FREEZE WILL STOP or BE HALTED? That isn'' t going to happen, but a lot of manipulative IDIOTS USE any issue: to try to come in any gov that cannot be theirS'S anyway?!! THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING: just no settlement freeze, ASS IT SHOULD BE, BUTT: playing games with something that is NOT going to happen [{too] still is part of the game. WHY?! Palestinians aren't going to get an own state anyway, and in any case NOT on Eretz Israeli Soil. SSt_ill_Kadima thinks it has any chance of surviving? Well, Sharon did not JUST DIE, so Kadima DIED instead, as it must be.
There is absolutely nothing to talk about. The arabs are squatting on our Jewish land when they already have a home land called Jordan.
That there is nothing to talk aout for the subject has been exhausted..Abass wants it all with the same demands and why go to the Arab League?does he not have an ounce of brain power to think for himself? As for the Govt falling? It is just RHETORIC,it will last as long as BB does not give in and PROCEED with the BUILDING..Time is awasting already.Also get rid of LABOR they are a NOOSE around your neck BB.
Netanyahu said that government will fall if the freeze of construction in settlements is continued and that will harm peace negotiations. Who is he kidding? Of course his extreme right government will fall, what would he expect. But it is absolutely not true that the peace negotiations will suffer. On the countrary, the negotiations will vastly improve when Kadima joins the coalition.
All of you must understand one simple fact-the Arabs want the Jews dead. There can be no peace for Israel that is sufficient for the Arabs as long as one Jew remains alive. Furthermore, if Obama succeeds in bringing Netanyahu's govt down, the next prime minister won't be Tzipi Livni, it will probably be Avigdor Lieberman. There is no way to make peace with people eho want you de3ad-there is only one answer to this-stay strong, stay armed and stay alive-that is what we Israelis intend to do.
lieberman will never be prime minister, the only fool bigger than that who thinks he will be prime minister is that who votes for him.
Because one day in the near future, the US will be unable or unwilling to protect Israel and the Arabs will defeat the IDF, ten where will you be? The Truth is Muslims do NOT want Jews dead, they just want Justice for everything that has happened sine 1947. Give up lots of land, water, cash and apologies and have a future.
how about the Arab countries compensate for the 800,000 Jews who left when things got bad for them in the Arab countries The money the Jews left behind in Arab countries is alot more then what the Palestinians left behind and give up land and water so let me guess, the Jews should be left with living on the sand while the Palestinians get all the good land and resources
obama's weakness is his dictatorial tendencies. people usually resent being given dictates--especially sovereing states. obama thought that if he ordered israel to freeze all building in what he calls the "settlemets," including in jewish neighbourhoods like gilo, then peace would descend like manna from the sky. the truth is that the arab world is not ready to make peace with israel. the hope that a fall of the netenyahu government would bring about peace is a delusion. any israeli government would have to represent the majority of the people of israel. the majority of the people of israel are not meretz, nor even labour. livni made it very clear in the past that israel will not accept any "right of return" into the jewish state. nor will israel give up jewish neighbourhoods in jerusalem. such is not only an ideological stand, but also a security necessity.
They are just waiting for Israel to get around to answering that offer they've sent for the last decade or so... Maybe next year they should put an RSVP on it.
indeed, netanyahu has stated his position quite clearly. any palestinian state must be demilitarised. israel must be recognised as the legitimate homeland of the jewish people. the jewish neighbourhoods in jerusalem will remain under israeli sovereignty. the large settlement blocks will remain under israeli sovereignty with some swaps. there will be no "right of return" to the sovereign state of israel. gaza is not even in the picture given that it is ruled by the rejectionist hamas. if saudi and others want peace, they have to convince hamas to accept the quartet's conditions. thus far, no one has been able to convince hamas even on a simple prisoner swap.
You present what you see as "the only offer", regardless of the fact that it in part is unacceptable to all Palestinians and most of the world. And you complain that the Palestinians don't want peace... The current Israeli government is almost as rejectionist as Hamas.
Israel has never legally annexed ANY territories.
Your characterization of Netanyahu's positions goes well beyond Netanyahu. His proposal does not allow for Palestinian sovereignty. And he never steps in to un-dispossess any Palestinian family in East Jerusalem of one of the surrounding villages. He's also ethnically cleansing the Jordan Valley, slowly - one entire village just last week.
CJ, learn the facts first, the post.
Moshe Dyan did give Temple Mount grounds for religious body to vest with overseen rites. But he didn't give any part of Ierushalaim. You want to fight him - go on the other side of the hill.
End of 1948: Israel has annexed in a defensive war territories that were supposed to be part of the Palestinian state. There is nobody in this planet or other planets that think that Israel should give away Ashkelon part of the Galilee and Eilat. Those territories so far have been annexed to Israel that wields its formal sovereignty over them. Illegal???? Who cares? After the 67 war Israel has acquired territories, and formally all Israel governments have put those territories in the negotiations table. Annexed??? Sinai was given back Gaza???? Israel pulled back Jordan lands????? Israel has returned them. Golan???? Annexed but sooner or later negotiations with Syria will be resumed. The Golan will be negotiated. West Bank ????? Whenever negotations will be resumed the West Bank will be negotiated. In the meantime.. jews have the right to settle wherever they want. Nobody forces them to settle. Illegal annexed?????Really???? I don't really see annexation out of a unified Jersualem. About the rest we can see jewish settlements and at the same time Israel's readiness for negotations. One of the possible outcomes, in case that a peace treaty will be struck is that some settlers will become palestinian citizens. Maybe. No negotiations.......???? No problem..... Israel will keep settling as usual and will be open to negotations of over 90 percent or more of the West Bank No annexation indeed. Neither legal nor illegal. The palestinians will have a state whenever they will decide to fulfill the necessary conditions regarding Israel security and recognition.
they live in a 7th century dream of conquest that has left their hands. They're on the wrong side of history and of the G-d of Israel ( and the world) After 9-11 America is the arabs worst nightmare. If they thought Obama would 'save them' they sought the wrong Messiah. Obama's already a lame duck.
who have delusions of taking over the "Homeland for the Jewish People." Aint gonna happen Obama will be out soon, the Arab League's offer is an insult to anyones intellect. The Pals have had 62 years to make peace, they haven 't. In those same years, Israel has become a power house and most certainly doesn't flinch at the crap nation of "The world" and it's acceptance of Jews or a Jewish Nation. The "world' is also responsible for the deaths of 6 million Jews. In addition 'The World' doesn't give a tinkers damn about a self exploding non people who live in and for violence.
What does a 'non-people' mean exactly? Sub-human? Animals? not ethincally recognised? Not culturally classifiable? People without a homeland? A community cast into the wilderness?
What century, exactly, do the Jews live in, claiming Palestine as their homeland? I think that was long before the 7th century. And don't bother to mention the Bible. Taking the homeland by force is diametrically opposed to the teachings of Judaism
Exactly as you describe. Even a predatory animal would not kill itself and be satisfied so long as 25 other animals die. How do you describe a "thing" that goes into a disco or bus to kill itself, measuring its happiness and success by the amount of innocent humans it took to death along with it. If no humans died, it was a total failure. The more the death toll rises, the greater the success. I know of no animal on earth that calculates this equation, much less believes there are 72 virgins awaiting him on the other side, for this heroic act of destruction. And, to add the cherry on the cake, ITS family celebrates this act as if a conquering hero has been lost. Draw your own conclusion and adjective how to characterize such a being. It is incomprehensible to equate *THIS* to a human like you or I, because even an animal would not "kill itself".
bibi implying that his fall from office would HARM the peace process--hilarious. the only way that'd happen is if lieberman took his place, and fortunately i don't think that the israelis are THAT stupid. yet.
Israel needs to TRY for peace. Netanyahu should be a Sadat and stop that construction to try for peace. The game is played out. Make a livable peace, at least try, or watch the state of Israel slowly cease to exist
Stopping setttlements and toppling this awful government would be a blessing. Let's all pray!
Genius, you forget one thing, your kibbutz would also be a "settlement". You're on the wrong side of the game, since, in the Palestinian mind, YOU are a Settler, too
The palestinians will topple any Israel governmnet that wont give them ALL they want. They toppled the "dream team" in Taba that presented the palestinians with a viable state in the West bank and Gaza. Palestinans rejected Clinton proposals and inmediately after that Barak- Ban Ami proposals in Taba which improved even Clinton's ones. If Arafat would have jumped into the taba proposals, there were good chances to save the left wing government. If a left government will arise again in Israel the palestinians will do their best to topple it. Ths issue is very simple: The palestinians foster to reach a political outcome that places Israel in track of political suicide. 1) Refugees 2) Acceptance of responsability for the naqba 3) partition of united Jerusalem the legitimate capital of Israel. 4) Return to 67 borders with minor changes( This is the only thing basically acceptable even for a center right government) a)No Israel government will accept the former three demands. b) No American government will push Israel to accept any of these demands. c)No world public opionion will push Israel to any of these demands d) The International Community is basically in favor of israel despite public opinion. Moreover, as noted Ben Ami...whatever concession you make they pocket it and wait for more. Normal palestinanpolitical behavior. They always wait for the next government to get a better offer. They even jumped over Ulmarts proposals. Conclusion: There is not going to be negotiations for a while. Ergo the status quo will remain. The freeze or a semi freeze will continue with other name. Something like " limited building" .The palestinians will continue divided, with tremendous economic growth in the West Bank and Gaza being pushed to the corner. Not bad at all.
whether it is good or bad, there is no choice. so i agree, "not bad at all."
I wish that was true. Can you ellaborate on that statement of yours, arik?
Dude do you even know what the term International community stands for or whom they actually represent? The international community is a vague term used in international relations to refer to all the governments of the world or to a group of them. The term is used to imply the existence of common duties and obligations between them, frequently in the context of calls for the respect of human rights and for action to be taken against repressive regimes. For example, the term is used by some Western leaders when criticising Iran for its nuclear ambitions by saying that "Iran is defying the will of the international community by continuing uranium enrichment". The league of non-aligned nations (122 countries out of 193 states recognised by the United Nations) has in fact backed Iran's right to enrich uranium. so get your facts right....
Why doesnt Spain concerns itself with the Independace of the Vasque Nation before meddling with Israel?. Besides it is a known fact the Moratinos is an Antisemetic. So, why bother with him?. And why does Israel let the Pals dictate? they are the loosers anyhow? Who is is the Power? Israel or the Arabs?, they could not force Israel get rid of Nukes, now they are Creating more Demands??? amazing
The Basque have full citizenship in Spain and have political power even in the US. Are there no limits to Hasbara and following the Diversionary Bible of Hasbara?
Did you ask catalans? They have complete civic rights, but most of them want something else They want self determination and are denied. It is true that basques are treated fearly. At the same time ETA has never done anything similar to Hammas, and Basques dont have claims over the legitimate right of Spain to Madrid. Lets see what happens if Basques decide to fire rockets to Madrid. Lets see then what will be the reaction of the Spanish "humanists"
... I have been to basque country, spent a lot of time there in fact. Lovely place BIlbao. Almost everyhone I spoke to wanted to remain part of spain, but have some indepndence - like scotland or wales does in the UK. It's only a small community of extremist violent nutters who want anything else - rather like the settlers, and Israeli mainstreem. (remember Bibi did not win the popular vote and his party is SMALLER than kadima)
Are you sure about that??? Did you ask the PNV? Did you ask EuskoKartasuna? Did you ask Batasuna? The independentist tendency is the dominant. The same in Catalunia and the same in Scotland. Agur.... my friend!!!! Long live Euskalherria Ethnonationalists...all of them......something not tremendusly dissimilar to Israel.
..... always there was, on one hand, a chance to talk, compromise, and make peace ....... and on the other hand, the Pals were insisting on impossible requirements that prevented any normal discussion......... and the settlers settled in new settlements! It became more and more difficult to find a common stand point. Again and again until the present situation, where hundreds of thousands of settlers have taken strong roots over there........ and still, the same impasse.
They toppled Barak government and did not take with four hands the Taba's proposaLs They rejected Clinton proposal's beforehand They did not pay attention to Ulmart's proposals. They are waiting for the Americans to give them a state. They will be disappointed once again
from it's inception... by hook-or-by-crook, with the compliance of relatively minor clerks in key positions, they requisitioned Pal land and properties systematically...the Pals were powerless against this bulldozer of shtadlanim... successive Israeli governments have either complied or prefered to turn a blind eye... now Bibi "triumphs"...
or as a protestor, should have their heads examined. Protests have rules as well. Who in their right mind challenges a moving bulldozer or, an army?
Ghandi, Nelson Mandela, Winston Churchill, Civil rights activists, the old eastern bloc anti communists, Early Israelis, want more?
" Who in their right mind challenges a moving bulldozer or, an army?" That's precisely the poor Pal's dilemma...
1) Make some controversial statement that you'll be forced to back down from. 2) Wait for the pressure to build up so you have an excuse for changing your mind. 3) Do the exact opposite of what you said you were going to do. 4) Cash in on whatever you managed to get in return for changing your mind. 5) Repeat. [Yes, in international politics this statement is controversial. There is no other country than Israel that thinks Israel should be allowed to build settlements. Israel should be lucky it got off without freezing in EJ too, and I think Bibi knows that.]
Realistically, there is little hope for a two state solution now. Settlement population growing 3x the population of Israel and no slowdown in sight. There is little left to do other than create a single state. This state will certainly be, if demographic trends continue, a non-Jewish majority by 2040 or sooner. The settlements have been a great strategic blunder for Israel and there is little that can be done to mend this. Career politicians fear the settlers and will never stand up to them. This article points to that fact. Furthermore, anyone that can read a map will realize that the completion of MaaleAdumim will make a contiguous West Bank impossible.
is that the Govermnent is aiding and abetting the settlement industry to such an extent that it is becoming stronger than the govenment itself. Indeed, Obama, the EU, the whole world (except AIPAC) must cower before this entity called the settlement industry.
The settlers have some hysterical spokespeople, and some imbecile support, in money and influence. But what you suggest is exaggerated, and puts again the anti-Semitic theme of supernatural "Jewish power" in place. No, no, no, no, no. Not again, Esther.
AIPAC is the CEO of the Settleent Industry. Without AIPAC there would be no money fro the settlements.
your spelling has deteriorated. Too much drinkee drinkee?
needs a check - ever heard of a sentence beginning with a capital letter? moron
Even Google would do for basic info. Nothing to do with anti-semitism, chas-ve-chalila...
what will Abbas bring if we agree to a full settlement freeze. yes we should halt all settlements in the West Bank... the settlers are troublemakers... accept we should not halt ANY building in a our capitol of Jerusalem. of course every anti israel post backer will attack my views and me personally, and there are a lot here because this haaretz paper is the most anti israel and anti jewish paper in the world.
Interesting if haaretz is the most "anti-israel" since it is the paper that is by far the most informed about and alert-to-the-true-reality of Israel. What does that say about the reality here and the other papers?
What are Jerusalem's city limits and what were they in 48 and 67? Why does the Israeli government want all those people's land, even the land used for refugee camps and historically Arab neighborhoods?
I am opposed to evicting any Arab from Arab neighborhoods. that is wrong and just evil in the most evil ways. In the perfect world Arabs can stay in E Jerusalem but a UNITED Jerusalem is the capitol of Israel. Now for the other guy... haaretz is KNOWN in israel by most israelis to be anti israel. nobody reads it. i read it because it makes me laugh with its blatantly anti israel slanted stories and all the anti semitic post backers with their idiocy make me laugh. Mark--- we should not evict the arabs from E Jlm. I agree that is wrong.
However, the vast majority of personal attacks come from the Zionist posters here. If you don't believe me, just start documenting how much name calling is done by each side. I'll bet you will be surprised. Many here prefer to deal with the substance of the issues rather than resorting to playground name calling.
And it is prepared to stoop to anything to get it.
If the Coalition cannot stand through a simple gesture. Peace with this coalition is impossible. Time for Israel to decide if it wants peace or land.
there is somewhat of a rift between israelis; some think that an other freeze gesture would help, others think it will show a sign of weakness. The consensus is still the acceptance of a Pal state. There is also a rift between the Pal governing bodies. One can live with ISreal (barely) and the other thinks it should be destroyed and replaced with an islamic theocracy. Who do you thnik has a bigger problem?
Hamas is confined and has little relevance, especially if there is a treaty ratified by the Palestinian voters. Israeli politicians won't commit even to a ratification vote by the Israeli people. Hamas and Likud want the same thing - everything with the other side gone magically or dead. Kach just has different preferred methods.
Hamas is definitely a problem, it is obvious that we can't have a Palestinian government that attempts to destroy Israel. But doing nothing and hoping that Hamas will disappear just does not work. Hamas feeds off the occupation. The more oppressed the Palestinian population is by Israel the more radical it will become and the more support Hamas will get. Which will in turn lead Israel to either withdraw its troops, and be stuck with a hostile failed state, or more realistically apply even more pressure which will lead both to international condemnation and more radical Palestinians. So you have vicious circle there, and it needs to be broken. Peace-negotiations are a double blow to Hamas, it both strengthens Fatah and it shows the Palestinian population that there is an alternative way to reach peace, which makes the population more moderate. Status quo might look good from the Israeli perspective, but it ensures that the foreseeable future contains nothing but war and isolation.
problem is we have a brain drain at the very top of the government. who will lead us? Barak or Zsipi? Leiberman? Leiberman would be worse... right?
Your system encourages party loyalists to suck up the the top of the party list, not to serve constituents. It was a system that probably served you well with a small, under one million population. but now it builds incompetence, narcissism, and corruption. Governments should serve people, not ideologies and party bosses.
They are the big (and loose) cannons of this coalition, which never ever talks about things like that because it is embedded with "ex"-Kachniks itself.
we need new younger leaders who have not been indicted... we need new fresh ideas. But this is our problem. Peace will not happen as long as we must bow to the haredi/shas/religious parties. the haredi count for 25% of our population and ALL vote! more of the rest of us must vote or shut up and go with the flow... the same can be said of the USA... what percentage of your population votes? less than half? i do not know... you tell me.
In the US, about 45% show up at the polls routinely. Mostly they are party loyalists. Swing voters only show when they really get mad. Since the religious are catered to by one party, mostly, in the US, they are a strong force politically. But they recently have gone out of their way to offend minority voters. Our next elections should prove interesting.
Or Mexico. Must be that democracies are so much preferable to Islamic theocracies and men with guns and rockets who kidnap soldiers. Doncha think?
You are not populair. You made a mess out of the situation. You let the settlers and haredi go there own way. You know this is not sustainable and forces will work against you. Haredi and settlers are not healthy ways of living. Both Ignore the current state of Israel. My Israel which I love and which I support.
The Likud is the ruling party because the people supported its positions and put it into power.
Get Bibi out and a new government will bring peace.
The Likud is the ruling party because Peres invited Netanyahu to have first bids at forming a government, even though Kadima won more seats at the election.
In a parliamentary system the party that has the 'best' prospects to form a government is given the task. Kadima and the Likud are the same size, but Kadima couldn't persuade Peres (member of Kadima) that they form a government. And that is all in basic knowledge 101.
Your first post claims that it was "the people" who put Likud into power. Your second post berated me for saying that it wasn't "the people" who put Likud into power, but "the President". And how did you berate me? By pointing out how and why "the President" chooses who should form a govt. Err, Ilan, your second post actually **AGREES** with me that your first post was a work of fiction......
Your first post and your second contradict each other i.e. in the first you insisted that Likud is the govt because "the people decided", while in the second you actually agree with me that it was Peres who decided who formed the govt, not "the people". I applaud your ability to hold two contradictory ideas in your head, Ilan; it is almost as impressive as your ability to hop from one to the other like a demented frog on a hotplate. Well Done!
They claim and build Israel. No matter who is the PM of Israel, the settlers will claim and build Israel. And to them, for this, we owe each one a huge thank you. The land was given to the Israelites by G-d. Fight the Israelites and fight with G-d , at your foolish peril and loss of lives.
Israel cannot make peace with those who use their own kids as combatants.
Momma you are right! Where indeed can one find such cheap real estate nowadays? Sometimes even with a ready-made orchard or olive-grove...
Ignorant Momma. Have you not seen how young IDF boys and girls are!!! It is a children army!!! So do not put this nonsense of Pals and kids.
The Likud and its coalition parties are in the government and not the opposition because the people voted them in, The president has a largely ceremonial role in that, but no more. To say that the current government rules because of Peres and not because they won the election is simply a lie. Which raises the quesiton. Why lie to yourself since your unconditional hatred of Israel is fairly well established.
when they annex west bank it will be majority arab in ten years
they'll find a pretext to expel the arabs
I hope Israel is planning to welcome 1.5 million new citizens. You just bought the whole farm.
Netanyahu refusing to continue freeze opens the door to allow PA to declare a state, which they were bared from doing under passed agreements. Netanyahu has no good choices now if continued freeze his Gov. fails or PA declares a state, this is why he is pushing so hard for direct talks before freeze ends, then impose a limited freeze on non-settlement blocks.
Agreed upon as they are by treaty, the1967 borders are the only legal borders . Any substitute is based upon the illegal occupation, as are also the settlements and the construction in East Jerusalem. The longer Netanyahu refuses to talk directly about this issue, the worse it will be for Israel in the long run. Direct talks on this issue is the path to peace. Whether this does or does not serve the special interests of the USA is entirely beside the point. Realpolitik — negotiation from a position of power — is fast becomming a loser's proposition.
Israel all of Israel can't be dictated by non Israeli's. Israel will do what's in her best interest. Not that of the USA or, Arabia. Just the same as other nation states. While Iran is rogue, the Arabs will ally with Israel for protection. Strange bedfellows, eh?
the question at hand is: are you a paleo-conservative a-hole who hates Jews with every fiber of your being, or are you a leftist a-hole who hates Jews with every fiber of your being? No lectures from the ignorantsia are needed on the supposed distinction between hatred of Jews and hatred of Israel - the stink of your anitsemitism can be smelled. The truth is that the political spectrum is NOT best measured on a line with directions "left" and "right" - certainly not when it comes to Jews. No, when the question involves Jews politics are best measured on a circle: the vile, stinking Jew-hating pigs on the left meet the vile, stinking Jew-hating pigs on the right, where they recognize each other and realize that they are brothers in spirit. AS noted above, we smell you, know who you are, despise you, and, on top of everything else, we will win and you will lose. Return quickly to your choir, alongside your lead tenor Obama, or you will miss the next practice session of the Horst-Wessel song.
I think a little introspection would do you good.
It is !!! ,... -------------- Continuing settlement freeze will topple Israel's government ,...
Israel has no government, just a collection of moral degenerates who try to justify the illegal occupation and settlement enterprise. The Israeli electorate chose world condemnation and isolation when they elected Netanyahu and Lieberman, and that's what they got.
Build settlements. Just because they are built does niot mmean tehy cant be evacuated. Look at gaza. Lots of settlements all evacuated. So Abbas is bullshitting everyone
Since Israel doesn't want to claim the settlements as part of Israel we can just return to the borders of 67. No more border dispute and we'll have a peace deal by the end of the year. Good job Elise! Did you tell Bibi yet?
Where are the Israelis who want peace? It is time for them to step up to the plate and stop the madness.
First, the 67 borders with a land swap for the roughly 5% that is disputed, Israel has already agreed to. Second, the temporary freeze on settlements in Jerusalem was conditioned on going to direct talks with Abbas, and Israel honored that agreement. Now Abbas refuses to go to direct talks. So why should Israel continue the freeze? More importantly what guarantees does Israel get that any agreement reached between Abbas and Israel will be honored by Hamas. If not honored by Hamas what is the point? Since Abbas cannot even maintain control of Gaza, how can he enforce any agreements reached between the two countries. If Hamas decides to attack Israel...technically Hamas has never stopped all the attacks only vastly reduced the number...while at the same time threatening Israel they would start them again. What repercussions will Hamas face if they violate agreements reached between Israel and Fatah? I wonder why this is never discussed? It would as important...if not more so...than any of the issues Abbas is raising, don't you think? If not, why? Nobody to
Netanyahu's ploy is just to start in building again, but the truth is he can become a real leader - take in Kadima and move forward with real talks. Lieberman won't leave and he has already proven that much. The Palestinians on the other hand have to do something for once, like actually negotiate in good faith and to adhere with what they sign....
settlement freeze, How you going to convince them to peace agreement and have a state souurding in "Israel". Everyone knows you games, the problem is when you will know that everyone knows.
and that's all that matters. we know Obama catows to sheiks and mullas and dictators and bows down to his ankles to please them we see that.. forget toppling or considering threatining Israeli govt thats exactly what Israel needs now nuff saying ye ye ye ye to everything and end up with crumbs... FYI.. The 1,600 homes announced in ramat schlomo were always going to be a part of israel. Even abbas and arafat agreed that ramat schlomo would be part of israel. When abbas presented his map to olmert it only contained 1.9 percent of land over 67 borders for a swap but one of the few jewish neighborhoods he allowed israel to keep was ramat schlomo. It is right by the green line with palestinians not around and it is easay for a land swap. When Rice visited israel in 2008 there had been news about building 1.300 homes in ramat schlomo because it is a living community where announcements are always made. Rice knew abbas was fine with ramat schlomo and the announcement didn't cause a huge diplomatic incident. The jerusalem city council district is a local issue like washington dc council planning commission. It has its own statutory law because israel annexed jerusalem in 1981. Israel would need to change a law that is why focusing on settlements first was a mistake. First you get the parties to the table like olmert and abbas were doing then at the end israel has to change the law. Rice knew this and it worked getting olmert and abbas to the table and rice was able to cancel west bank projects which were under barak. Rice didn't show up for dinner two hours late. This wasn't a diss on biden the low level clerks appointed by the jerusalem city council wouldn't have even known biden was in the country. The meeting was planned before Biden was scheduled to visit and agenda was set before biden's visit. The administration is just using this to bash israel and look good in the arab world. Rice knew the situation and still showed up for dinner without making a nothing into something.
Both Muslims and leftists accuse Israel of not wanting peace. Truth is always the opposite to what Muslims and leftists say. It is the Hamas and the Muslim coalition that supports it (Turky, Iran, Syria Hezbollah) that want a war, and they want it now. There is no gain for Israel to start a war, but for this coalition there is no better time. This anti Israeli coalition is fully aware that Obama is hostile to Israel. This was clear even before he was elected. I wrote about it exactly two years ago. However, Obama’s days are numbered. His popularity is sinking faster than Titanic, more people are questioning his legitimacy as the POTUS, polls suggest that 55% of Americans want him to release all his sealed records, and in all likelihood the Democratic Party will be decimated in the coming elections. Therefore, the window of opportunity for the Muslim coalition to launch a war against Israel is only this summer. The “humanitarian” fleet heading to Gaza from Turkey by “the peace activists” was an attempt to provoke Israel and find an excuse to launch the war. Now they have the excuse. Therefore I am of the opinion that this summer there is going to be a major war in that troubled region. Some people ask, if IDF knew that this fleet is bait, why did they attack it? They should have let it go through. Here is the answer: •Israel cannot allow ships to go directly to Gaza for security reasons. Innocent Israeli families are threatened daily with missile attacks launched from Gaza, and Israel must make sure weapons are not being smuggled into Gaza in "humanitarian" cargoes. Israel offered to offload all humanitarian supplies on board this ship and deliver them to Gaza. •These Turkish ships know that the U.N. will deliver any and all humanitarian supplies after first examining shipments to make sure they contain no weapons. Thus it appears they deliberately provoked this incident for propaganda purposes. •Israeli commanders were attacked and beaten by the "humanitarian" workers on this ship who were armed with iron bars and knives. One soldier was thrown off an upper deck and fell thirty feet to the deck below, sustaining significant injuries to his head. •Israeli soldiers repeatedly told each other "Don't shoot! Don't shoot!" as they rappelled to the surface of the ship. They fired only as a last resort and in self-defense. • the organization behind this flotilla belongs to the Union of Good, which was created for the specific purpose of transferring tens of millions of dollars a year to Hamas-controlled entities in the Gaza Strip and whose leaders have been designated by our State Department as Specially Designated Global Terrorists. The war in the Middle East can end only in two scenarios. -Muslims bring about a second holocaust to the Jews and kill all the Israelis. -Muslims abandon Islam and accept Israelis as fellow humans with the right to live in peace. There is no other way to bring peace in the Middle East. All talks of peace are futile. As long as Muslims believe in Islam, they cannot tolerate the Jews reclaiming their land after it was once claimed as Dar al Islam. They will fight to the end of time until the total destruction of Israel. The hope that one day there will be peace between Israel and her Muslim neighbors is a delusion. The defeat of Israel is the defeat of all of us. If Israel is allowed to be destroyed, Muslims will be so invigorated that they will start the biggest jihad against all humanity. Millions of Muslims that believe the time of jihad has not come yet will get the confirmation that this is the time. If you love your freedom, you should stand by Israel.
Ali my foot.
Wow! Here is opportunity with its name written on its face instead of the other end. Build, baby! Build!!!
ahh, a sarah palin admirer. one need say no more
Let's see, building in the West Bank must proceed because of natural growth. Natural growth that is 3-4 times the rate of population growth in the rest of Israel. Demolishing of Palestinian homes has proceeded unabated during the entire "partial" freeze on new building. Got to make room for more Jewish settlers an more building to start in September. The only reason there is no progress is because Washington gives Netanyahu what he wants. Missile defense? No problem. F-35 fighter planes? No problem. Unbreakable bond of support? No problem. Blockage of UN sanctions? No problem. Deep six the Goldstone report? No problem. When there are no consequences for little or no action, this is what we get, NO ACTION. Talk is cheap. Guess we can expect more talk and no action for as long as it takes Israel to completely annex the West Bank or what is left of it.
Haaretz Lefty audience wants to wage psychological war on Bibi?? That's a bit like showing up for a bullfight with a toothpick. If Obama were smart, he'd ask Bibi for advice on how NOT to destroy the American economy rather than carry a FETISH over Israel
is popular with the nutz and bolts of the skunks who Haaretz lets have a field day on its web pages? Dont worry its nothing serious you cannot take them seriously this is just a past time of the anti semites gathering to shmooze what else -- beloved subject..... Jews
The Israeli economy does not compare to the US economy. Bibi couldn't handle even the idea of the counterinsurgency in Afghanistan or how to deal with Pakistan and its nukes, let alone the cost. And he could not deal with the $ trillions of debt.
Obama is an abysmal failure. Deal with it.
the so-called counterinsurgency is falling appart. the pakistani intelligence, iran, are both financing, arming and advising the taliban. the population is resentful and fearful of us doubletalk. osama has more power than ever. as for the trillion dollar debt, i would not be proud of it if i were you. obama knows nothing about the military and nothing about economics--nothing whatever.
at least you got that part right, chafeeka
Who leaked the confidential US documents?A Pakistan's double game, Iran's meddling in Afghanistan on the side of Taliban, corruption in Kabul and the high civilian death toll were common knowledge before. So who profited from dropping 91,000 confidential documents in the lap of Wikileaks.org website this week? Why only classified US military documents? And how does the leak tie in with the undercover Washington-London feud in Barak Obama's term in office
critics of the actions of Israel are anti-semites! Never heard that intellectually redundant line of reasoning before. Change the script will you, most of the world doesn't fall for that nonesense anymore. You'll have to find a new way of smearing valid criticism of the Israeli state.
And why will Israel's current government put it's survival above peace for Israel?
It says AND damage the peace process. Anti-Israelis are morons.
Why in the world should any of us care if the Netanyahu gov't were to fall? A more pragmatic and realistic Israeli gov't that recognizes international law, binding UNSC resolutions, etc is exactly the gov't that is needed to give peace talks a real chance to succeed. Nobody takes seriously the current governements statements that they are interested in peace talks. Their actions indicate the exact opposite.
I think that ANYONE would know better that this bunch of lemmings......
Let there be new elections, strive for a true unity government, and then deal with the settlements. Settlements spell sedition, mayhem, the end-of-Israel.
....... That's the reality from which you need to start your predictions. Next, is what will it look like? Now you see, dear Esther, that the Palestinians are also part of the equation. NOT ONLY ISRAEL. So, it depends on them too. Very, very, very much so....... and the history is that they screwed it up time and again. Talk to them not to us. Too bad they don't have a Haaretz Talkback in English.......
They have to deal with their part of the equation, we have to deal with ours - with wisdom instead of bullets.
Settlements will continue according to the original land grant God gave Abraham ! Like it or lump it !
You are still talking about that fairy tale... at least get it right, god gave it to moses...
Boy, that does it. Solving 21st century problems with promises from myths. When will the religious in the world understand that no myth is worth dying for? So sad to listen to such delusions repeating death and destruction on the human race. Read Einstein!
Enjoy the pink sky you live in and don't let International law, binding UNSC resolutions, ICJ rulings at the Hague interfere with your fantasy like beliefs.
Yep! God made a promise to Abraham and to his descendents forever. And that includes the descendents of Ishmael. Like it or lump it.
is a pretty good fantasy too.
This is the rub. Almost all zionists are not Semites. The Palestinians are Semites.
The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
Remind some here about the Palestinians missing THE PLOT AS USUAL.
People from all sides of the political spectrum did not expect Netanyahus Frankensteinian government to finish its term. The surprise is that it lasted as long as it has. If Netanyahu is really in favor of peace, let him move out of the way to allow somebody who is capable of makiing peace to lead the nation.
and you dont want God's wrath show up at your door
Let's put it this way, for various reasons, it's preferable that this coalition with its spectrum of politicians which supposedly represents all Israelis, works out a peace deal with the Palestinians. It's not a question of whether the government is right-leaning or left-leaning, but the ordinary Israeli (which I don't necessarily count myself amongst) prefers the likes of PM Netanyahu to negotiate on behalf of Israel. What exactly are the Palestinians waiting for? We saw what happened with a centrist-left government? Perhaps a centrist-right government will succeed but we'll never know until they resume direct negotiations.
It's the Palestinians who refuse to sit in the same room and talk. Few added buildings would hardly dictate the future of the land during 1-2 years of good peace talks. At the end in an agreed upon resolution it would either stay in Israeli hands or move to Palestinian hands. A school or few apartments wont change that. Just an excuse for Abbas
Unfortunately rabin got assassinated, and Sharon is a veggie, Olmert iks a lamer, Livni is a lawyer dont know which is worse
YB keeps the coalition working. Lieberman said many times that he government will not collapse and that all internal questions are resolved by negotiations. Like it or not, the man is adamant and persistent.
Not a wussy govt. like Olmert's and Barak's. Those geniuses were ready to give up the ranch. Bibi is no pushover, they will get zippo. And those hoping for Obama to give the Pals everything on a silver platter, he's in for big problems after November. His political survival takes the front seat to these Palestinians fakers who take, take, lie, cheat, distort. They won't have a state in 50 years. Fine by us.
Go After the ‘Ground Zero Mosque’
"fakers who take, take, lie, cheat, distort."
He let you slide by 2. The number was 9. Get your head out of the sand.
A tiny sign of good faith, Smadar. That would be an offer to continue the settlement freeze to kick-start talks and a stop to evictions and demolitions in the Arab neighbourhoods of East Jerusalem.
still have a problem. You noted multiple times that it is Hamas not Abbas with whom Israelis will need to talk. You called Abbas a puppet and incapable man who is not the real leader of Palestine. It always amazes me how people in SF, calling themselves “progressives”, try to imitate ultimate Berkeley, think they are sharp and suck. We did it when we were 19 years old. We thought we will handle the world’s problems. We ultimately outgrew this attention seeking and became busy with our lives. You still stuck are in this teenage lust for coolness via showing precise insight into ultimate complex situations. Perhaps, one will say to you one day WOW Durs. Durson, some progressives actually do know what they are talking about and consistent in their statements are. You are consistent about one thing only -to criticize Israel whichever way it pops out first. This is neither cool nor a sign of wisdom shows. How shallow! Durson, for a change say something productive. Something that one will read and say “You know, this woman has an approach to peace.” Well, way harder this is than simply criticize. But that’s what being a true progressive really is- someone with a vision, with a plan.
still have a problem. You noted multiple times that it is Hamas not Abbas with whom Israelis will need to talk. You called Abbas a puppet and incapable man who is not the real leader of Palestine. It always amazes me how people in SF, calling themselves “progressives”, try to imitate ultimate Berkeley, think they are sharp and suck. We did it when we were 19 years old. We thought we will handle the world’s problems. We ultimately outgrew this attention seeking and became busy with our lives. You still stuck are in this teenage lust for coolness via showing precise insight into ultimate complex situations. Perhaps, one will say to you one day WOW Durs. Durson, some progressives actually do know what they are talking about and consistent in their statements are. You are consistent about one thing only -to criticize Israel whichever way it pops out first. This is neither cool nor a sign of wisdom shows. How shallow! Durson, for a change say something productive. Something that one will read and say “You know, this woman has an approach to peace.” Well, way harder this is than simply criticize. But that’s what being a true progressive really is- someone with a vision, with a plan.
began with the settlements and that it is the only obstacle to peace. No settlements and peace will find its way, false Esther. What the hell are you talking about other than taking someone’s words and saying hay it’s you. In first grade when someone screamed liar we used to respond "oh no, YOU are a liar." The other person "You are a fat liar" etc. Is that the kind of argument you are introducing into the Middle East debate. You know what? Maybe?
You're probably overwrought... even throwing in a bit of incoherent psychoanalysis...
You are a breath of fresh air here on talkbacks I never miss reading your responses ever. Saying the truth is a good trait and you have got it in abundance. Indeed the present Govt,unlike the previous ones wo were ivers without substance.Olmert?ugh! Livni selfish to the core.So,Israel now has BB and let us hope he does not emulate the previous ones.
You have the support of the world! Your cause is righteous. and your conditions for direct talks fair.. Don't let'em occupants bash you once more..
Abbas needs the current government as much as Bibi Does,. he knows Bibui, he does not knpow who would replace him and set the process back another few years. Ys has invested its reputation too far to let teh likes of Abbas ruin everything. He can be replaced easier than Bibi
with or without the U.S
they weren't kicked out of lebanon... what is wrong with you... that's like saying I work for McDonalds but I petition CIA to pay for my work
Arab threats, from the religion of peace. If they don't get EVERYTHING they want, there will be chaos. Who are these goons kidding.
Typical Arab double-speak. There was no stolen land. It was LOST, lost, lost, due to Arab foolishness. If the foolishness continues, MORE LAND WILL BE LOST. Take it to the bank.
That could even necessitate new elections. Which would mean that he might no longer be prime minister.
The Palestinian position on direct talks is one of Israel's own making. If Israel would state that it is either direct talks or no talks at all, the Palestinians would cave in an instant.
If Abbas doesn't want talks, so be it. Why was Bibi almost begging him. Israel has the upper hand, Abbas should be the one begging. Let there be no talks, dragging this Arab-inspired fiasco on and on. Let Abbas come begging.
"Why was Bibi almost begging him." One would almost think this is because he is caught between a rock and a hard place..... "Israel has the upper hand, Abbas should be the one begging" And yet neither side is acting out their Gianni-assigned roles. How odd..... Either **they** don't understand what's going down or **Gianni** is the clueless one. Anyone care to take bets?
usually you say Israel is a victim, and at grave existential risk, but now you say it has the upper hand. which is it?
"Let Abbas come begging." Immature swaggering, much like George Bush's "Bring it on." Peoples lives and welfare are at stake and this is what you suggest. Depressing.
the Arabs will counter it by saying that if construction goes on unchecked, the Israelis will continually postpone coming to a decision ! Perhaps the best thing for Isarel to do, is for N"yahu to resign and call for fresh elections! This will take another 6 months at the least. Then, provided the same coalition can be formed again, Mr Netanyahu can restore the status quo - and I am sure Mr Liberman will will approve. Of course, this scenarion depends upon what happens to Mr Obama in the coming election. If The Dems lose control, then all to the good. Everything is in the lap of the gods!
"continuing settlement freeze will topple Israel's government". This says it all.. an extremist government which has every intention of taking all of the land of Palestine, and never had intentions for peace.
What a ludicrous idea: build settlements while negotiating with the Palestinians how to divide the land, including the land on which the settlement is being built. Of course this is a showstopper and nobody will agree to this (except the Israeli side). There will obviously be a building freeze, whether by a formal government decision or by a "word of honor" (if Israel can find some man of honor influential enough to make the commitment). Perhaps Netanyahu will guarantee to Obama some acceptable measure of a freeze, and Obama will commit to Abbas to have this implemented. But some reasonable freeze is a certainty.
Aside from Palestinian ego they got Israel to prolong the settlement freeze which was meant for direct peace talks in the first place. If we're talking about peace and the future of that land we can expect the talks to end in 1-2 years and few more buildings would hardly dicdate any resolution. It would either way stay in Israeli or move to Palestinian hands. This is just an excuse for Abbas to not talk.
Why are Arab communities allowed to grow and Jewish ones aren't, moron?
Indeed, they have effectively been pushed *out* of the territory that Israel is "disputing" i.e. Israel has moved the pizza out of their reach. The result is this: the Palestinians are basing their claim for that territory entirely upon their rights under int'l law, whereas the Israelis are doing the reverse i.e. Israel is using those settlements as a means to "grab it and refuse to let go".
Non Jewish Israelis are also forbidden from settling in "territories occupied" But please do go ahead with your empty rhetoric.....it's cute...in fact hilarious that anyone would willingly show themselves to be so stupid as to try to pull off such a weak tactic.
.... Logios, just as my friend Esther, sees only one side guilty of not starting to slice the thing and begin eating. SDHD sees both sides.... Meanwhile, Logios stays hungry while SDHD finished one slice and is already munching into the second. What to do? Stop? Why? to talk, endlessly, while the pizza goes cold? So, both are eating......and refuse to talk at the same time. But that's stupid....Better talk, open a bottle of wine, find out that your grandmothers were sisters, prepare more pizzas and live happily ever after....
.... Logios sees only one side guilty that they can't agree how to divide the pizza . SDHD sees both sides should be able to do the same thing.... Meanwhile, SDHD finished one slice and is already munching into the second while Logios who is doing the same, is hungry for SDHD's slice too.... he wants, always wanted, all of it. What to do? Stop? Why? to talk, endlessly, while the pizza goes cold? So, both are eating......and refuse to talk at the same time. But that's stupid....Better talk, open a bottle of wine, find out that your grandmothers were sisters, prepare more pizzas and live happily ever after....
The pizza is supposed to be put in the freezer while negotiations go on. When the sides agree on its division, it is taken out of the freezer, put in the microwave oven, and divided. If you keep thinking about grandma, you will miss modern times. Grandma didn't have a micro. In any case, the basic premise of my post is that some form of a freeze is an elementary requirement by any dealer. Apparently, you need a Dr. Watson to understand what is elementary. I fell into the SDHD moron class. Too bad.
... that wasn't sure if it was really you... ... must be that you like pizza...
will make Obama happy and ease his desire for a compliant Livni to head it
It is worth the try if our president has promised to pressure Netaanyahu to agree for the 1967 border as well as E-Jerusalem as your capital. Europe and the American public supports you. Go for it, it is worth taking the risk.
This government needs to be reorganized. If this is what it takes, so be it.
Everyone knows that the present gov't of Israel does not want to give an inch of land or a drop of water. The longer the world waits to force action (and the fall of the present government) the more dangerous Israel becomes for the US and everyone else. Until the US Congress and the President cease doing Israel's bidding, there will be no talks, no peace and the constant threat of WWIII. "Jewish homeland".....at what cost? I for one am tired of paying for Jewish lies, obfuscation and hubris.
that if israel stops stealing land , the israeli government would topple ?
There is something quite diseased in his thinking. Normal folk call it INSANITY
Dumdum's international law equals: Jews aren't allowed to reclaim the properties they were ethnically cleansed from, even the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem, or it's against the law. What a maroon.
If you idea of international law is written on some ancient manuscripts or the anticipation of armageddon, I can't help you. If your house was taken from you and demolished, I am sure you would feel differently.
SDHD: "Jews aren't allowed to reclaim the properties they were ethnically cleansed from" The problem with that statement is pretty easy to spot i.e. the "Jews" who are doing the "reclaiming" are not the "Jews" who were "ethnically cleansed" i.e. they are ring-ins, and as such have no claim at all.
Who last week said he would risk anything for peace? Apparently not his job.
in Calif., USA. No, Trust in Netanyahu to do whats right and also whats best for Israel. I admire the Leader that will not get pushed around and that includes needing Obamas help. My prayers are with Israel to stay strong and protect your people and still do whats right. Forget Obama!
No point in talking if Israel will continue expanding settlements, checkposts and exclusive roads. This will result in more armed fanatics and the army making the lives of Palestininas a hell. The only thing that might be achieved is another round in the "peace process" while the colonisation continues unabated.
...there are some who might postulate that the coalitions policies as a whole--might run the risk of "bringing down Israel"--but that the coalition could survive!--obviously a worthy goal in itself!--at least for the members of the coalition!
From what I can see, it would probably be the best thing in the world for Bibi to get thrown out of office and for Israel to have a new government. Maybe Israelis will carefully consider just how much more hatred toward Israel they want to incite in the world and maybe choose a government that might be better for their future. One that would give up lots of land, water, cash and apologies for 1947 to ensure Israelis a secure future. How long before the Arabs have the ability to defeat the IDF? The answer is NOT forever, it can be measured in years.
made the biggest concessions in Israel and moved towards peace. Currently this government wants peace but one hand of the Palestinians refuses direct talks while the other wants to genocide. The problem is with the Palestinians, not Israel.
israel coninuing building in occupied territories means one thing and one thing only: they do not want peace! I shows lack of respect to the Palestinians who are trying to build a state there. no?
@Bibi_gone: this is wishful thinking about Israelis. As Avi said: right-wing coalitions have often made bigger concessions, but they continue to lose the propaganda battle with the West. At the next election we would probably see a new liberal party following in the footsteps of erstwhile Shinui. A coalition between them, Kadima and Labour could PERHAPS be possible. But I am not at all sure. Likud's love affair with the right-winged (religious) Zionist parties might be a hurdle. A broad national coalition is the only answer now. Bibi needs to invite Kadima and offer Livni REAL incentives this time. I disagree partially with both Avi and Salvador. The truth is more complicated than either of you make it out to be.
Fatah made it clear in their last meeting.
"Trying to do so now would bring down the ruling coalition and damage the peace process, Netanyahu said." Something of a contradiction in terms, isn't it, Bibi? Personally, I think that seeing your head put on a pike would be the best thing that can happen to "the peace process". Marshall Petain had a phrase for it, didn't he?
Did the peace process work out any better with any other Israelis Prime Ministers?
Stick Bibi's political head on a pike and display it outside the Knesset. Pin a note on it: "To Encourage The Others". It will concentrate the mind wonderfully. And every PM who takes up the throne merely to shout "We Have No-one To Talk To!!!" should receive the same treatment. There would be peace within a year, my friend, if not sooner...
Continuing settlement building will topple Israel.
There never was a "settlement freeze" as you know, and it was always a farce anyway as people like Hagit Ofran have documented. But you are right. The real existential threat for Israel are the continuing occupations and colony building.
Palestine's area depends on a mathematical equation that depends on time and only decreases. When Netanyahu is in power this equation is exponential.
Palestine's area depends on a mathematical equation that depends on time and only decreases. When Netanyahu is in power this equation is exponential.