Most advanced, expensive fighter jet headed to Israel
The U.S. is scheduled to respond next week to Israel's request for 25 F-35 stealth fighter jets.
By Amos Harel Tags: Israel Air Force Iran nuclear Israel newsThe largest defense deal in Israeli history, for the purchase of the F-35 stealth fighter aircraft, is advancing, slowly but surely.
The rounds of talks among the defense establishment, the Pentagon and manufacturer Lockheed-Martin have significantly narrowed the gaps between the parties.
The United States is scheduled to respond next week to Israel's express request for 25 of the jets.
Jerusalem is to reach a final decision by early 2010, and there's a good chance a deal will be signed by the middle of the year.
Assuming Lockheed maintains its original production timetable the first fighters will be delivered in 2014.
Two years later, Israel will have its first operational squadron of F-35s, consisting of 25 fighter aircraft representing the cutting edge of U.S. technology (Israel's too, it is hoped), capable of any mission. Iran too?
Ready for Iran, if they stay still
Of course, assuming that Iran's nuclear installations are still waiting there by the time Israel has the appropriate aircraft.
Of course, this is one of the main questions surrounding the deal. When discussions began on the procurement of the F-35 it was clear that it was necessary if Israel was to have a response to the Iranian threat.
This is the main argument for buying the aircraft, especially in light of the fact that it now seems likely that Tehran will eventually the S-300 advanced air defense system from Russia, making stealth capability all the more important for Israeli fighters.
In the meantime, however, the timetables have diverged: Unless stopped, Iran's nuclear program may reach maturation within two years, but the delivery date for the F-35 is still far away. Some senior Israeli army officers are citing this in their call to delay the purchase.
They argue that it will use up most of the U.S. military aid to Israel without being on hand when needed.
They say urgent projects for the land forces should be advanced instead, and the remaining funds invested in the navy and in refurbishing older aircraft.
The Americans, in their discussions, raised two problems with this option: A delay would prevent Israeli defense industries from getting involved in the project at an early stage and earning money from the sale of systems incorporated into the F-35.
And if Israel delays its order then other countries will move up on the list for deliveries, and there will be no guarantee that it will receive delivery according to its timetable - even if that is in 2016. One concern is that by then other countries in the Middle East will also begin acquiring the aircraft.
Cutting the specialized Israeli suite
In the meantime, the Americans have eased their stance on Israel's request to include locally made electronics systems. A major issue in this would be the cost of the specialized "suite" Israel would like to develop for its order of F-35s.
This makes the aircraft more expensive, but much of the price also depends on the volume. For example, if the price of 25 aircraft, including many other components, comes to $130 million each, then an order of 75 may lower the per-unit price to $100 million.
The head of the Planning Directorate of the Israel Defense Forces, Maj. Gen. Amir Eshel, told Haaretz in September that in any event the cost of a single aircraft is expected to be much lower than $130 million, which he described as "exaggerated."
The decision on this acquisition is one of the most important for the budgets of both the state and the IDF, as well as the future shape of the military.
As in the past, it will be made by a limited group of people, with limited transparency, little control by civilians and without public debate.
The government has not really dealt with the issue and it is doubtful whether it will do so in the future.
These matters are usually agreed upon among the IDF chief of staff, the Israel Air Force commander, the defense minister and the director general of the defense ministry.
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Using television signals to detect stealth aircraft in flight is not reliable nor accurate. What hinders Russia and China from developing and mass producing stealth planes is the cost and technology.
i mentioned at the link in my post, maybe you'd have seen that my comment was tongue in cheek. but apparently you didn't. too bad, its worth the giggle.
Axel:"Are we really surprised that Jews regard accepting a donation as doing a favor to the giver?" And you want to be taken seriously Axel? Shame on you.
PSM: "No you lose,countless Arab jet fighters destroyed by IAF" Over the last 20 years, PETER? When, exactly? Because I did say this: "considering that the IDF has spent over 20 years collecting heaps o` data on how to bomb helpless civilian poplns from the air," Indeed they have, PETER. Indeed, they have done very little else.....
Try thinking for a change.
First, it is arguable that the Symington Amendment even applies to Israel. It is intended to be used against any country which gives or receives certain equipment or technology on or after August 4, 1977. It is likely that Israel had the nuke as early as 10 years before this date and stopped relying on any one else's equipment or technology in the early 60's. Even if the Symington Amendment applies to Israel, which it probably doesn't, the Amendment also provides a provision that the President may override the first provision of the Amendment if the President fulfills a couple of obligations. This presidential power has been used in the cases of India and Pakistan, for example, which it is noted you failed to mention in your thinly veiled bash of Israel. #11 American, you are either ignorant or you are intentionally misleading. Neither one of these is good.
"watch it with volume turned way up. gotta love them g`s" - eric Eric, I know how to find propaganda if I want to. I have been following the Joint Strike Fighter, now known as the F-35 for decades. The F-35 is less than originally promised and the project is WAY over costs. The program has been saved by the folks developing the engine(s) delivering much higher thrust than originally specified. The F-35 should be a satisfactory replacement for the F-16. Which is what was intended.
The F-35 is far less dependent upon radar absorbing materials as it was not intended to be as 'stealthy' as the F-22. The airplane is not the total fiasco the F-22 program was. In no small part because of the incredibly botched F-22 program. You live, you learn.
While Israel might prefer the F-22, it's not available. So is the F-35 a good enough alternative, given the cost, earliest delivery date, limits on customization, and overall capabilities? I have my doubts. Ideally, Israel doesn't want to rely on others for its defense needs. Even if it chose to build its own, a 4.5 or 5th generation fighter is extraordinarily complex, and they still have to turn to others for certain components - the engine, for example. A non-US alternative might be even less reliable. Could Israel trust Sweden or Europe not to put Israel under embargo, as they've done in the past? Could Israel trust Russia or China not to put their own regional interests ahead of Israel's? Perhaps the F-15SE - less stealthy, but also less costly, customizable, and battle tested - together with Israel's own advanced drones to take out the enemy's defenses - is the better strategic choice.
As more and more Americans are blown up in Afghanistan and Iraq by IEDs manufactured in Iran, the Americans will eventually come to the conclusion that Iran must be somehow dealt with. Bush Jr. was slow. Let us see what happens when Obama finally wakes up.
"Israel testing bed for US weapons" Ridiculous. When israel flies the F-35 with different electronics, software, and weaponry, what feedback can they give to Americva?
One can only hope that the US will come to their senses and cancel this giving away of advanced fighter technology which the US and it's allies need's and Israel don't need.
Let Americans bail out Lockeed.
US aid to Israel in millions Year Total Military Grant Economic Grant Immigrant ASHA All Other 2003 3,745.15 3,086.4 596.1 59.6 3.05 ? 2004 2,687.25 2,147.3 477.2 49.7 3.15 9.9 2005 2,612.15 2,202.2 357.0 50.0 2.95 ? 2006 2,534.53 2,257.0 237.0 40.0 ? .53 2007 2,500.24 2,340.0 120.0 40.0 ? .24 2008 2,423.8 2,380.6 0.0 39.7 3.0 .5 -Washington report. NOTE how the amount keeps falling every year.!Does not fit in with your AIPAC bogey man does it? Now who pays for the billions going to the Arabs from the USA? Not the US taxpayer?Where is that spent? The aid to Israel stays mostly in the USA. What about the aid from EU to the Arabs ? AIPAC run them as well?
Israel is getting these F-35s for free, "paying" for them out of that $3 billion per year of USA military "aid". So if Israel choses the F-35 then it doesn't have to reach into its own pocket. zf: "Better a European jet like Typhoon" And the Europeans will want you to buy them with YOUR OWN MONEY i.e. they won't give you the money to pay for them. zf: "The Saab Grippen cost price about $60 million, designed for take off & landing on short civilian roads which is ideal for Israel." And SAAB will want you to PAY FOR THEM i.e. they will not expect the Swedish Govt to give you the $60 million dollars that it takes to buy each Grippen. You are comparing $130 million versus $60 million, but you forget that ISRAEL's contribution towards the former is ZERO, while it has to pay the full price for the latter. So which is the more cost-effective for Netanyahu, zf??
LM: "Why worry about what the F-35`s will cost, as you can get AIPAC to lobby Congress and turn the purchase price into a `grant` and let the American people pick up the cost." The purchase price is ALREADY a tab that will be picked up by the US taxpayer, precisely because it will be paid for out of the $3 billion per year of USA military "aid" to Israel. The fear is that it will chew up too much of that $3 billion, leaving the Israeli govt - gasp!!!! - having to pony up the money for other goodies that the IDF might also demand. And, of course, what the IDF wants the IDF gets....
Why worry about what the F-35's will cost, as you can get AIPAC to lobby Congress and turn the purchase price into a 'grant' and let the American people pick up the cost.
"it`s everything promised" If everything promised means that it can actually fly, you have me convinced.
"Israel has the expertise and the basic foundation for building its own fighter aircraft." You skipped the most important precondition: Billions and billions of own money ...
Are we really surprised that Jews regard accepting a donation as doing a favor to the giver?
"Better a European jet like Typhoon ( probably best multi role fighter out there ) I am sure Germany will give us a good deal as they are one of the makers." Even a "good deal" would cost billions of ISRAELI money which you don't have. (American dollars will not be available for buying European) Furthermore, even the kow-towing-to-Israel German government would face a problem by selling fighters with the prospect of seing them later bombing civilians and performing extrajudicial assassinations. Better forget it. If you want to see Typhoons in the ME turn on Saudi TV.
pilots,all manned by Arab civillians Johnboy?? Helpless civillians? No Arab AA or jet fighters available to Arabs?? Like in Syria recently.etc etc. Sorry I forgot you know for a fact Israel did not hit anything except sand. PS In the same vein.Despite your claims to the contrary even Btselem claims Israel is investigating Cast Lead. So I repeat instead of crying hypocrisy why not stop being a hypocrit and loudly demand your side investigate.What have they done so far? PPS It was not me that called the UNHRC a pollitically motivated moove it was the former President of Ireland. No matter how hard you squirm the report was run by people who had expressed sentiments like Israel had no right to defend itself. A denial of natural justice-spin that one with a page of verbal salad.
Scientists are already working to develop radars to detect stealth aircraft using theories based on changes in airwaves, temp. and magnetic fields. Similar technology is already used to detect submarines.
No amount of convenient revisionism will change the fact that Israel's existence after 1948( when it was invaded by 5 Arab countries with the sole intent of destroying it) was maintained by it's technological development and training in cutting-edge weaponry. In the absence of the fundamental change in Arab street mentality in Paleostine or in Cairo, Damascus, Amman or Shiite Beirut, the only thing that insures Israel's survival is military might, unfortunately. Despite the convenient slogans displayed here by the Polyannaesque cheerleaders of Israel's enemies, who curiously ignore the fundamental toxic Jew hatred of the Muslim Brothers that guides the hearts and minds of those enemies, the facts of that history cannot be changed. Perhaps they should solicit the views of the Christian minorities in these lands in order to determine the likely future scenarios?
it's everything promised and MORE! lol. go to the link below, click "f-35 test", and watch this video: "AA-1 Tests Afterburner during 5th Flight" http://www.jsf.mil/gallery/gal_video.htm# watch it with volume turned way up. gotta love them g's
Israel has the expertise and the basic foundation for building its own fighter aircraft. The only reason we continue to buy American is to support US industry. It's very popular to say that Israel couldn't survive without US support. Let's put that to the test.
D: "What is the view of the US Congress on this issue?" Go ask AIPAC. They'll tell you. Saves you the trouble of canvassing each individual Congressman. D: "Am I missing something?" No, not much. The USA gives military aid to lots of countries. It usually takes this form: 1) We allocate $xxx million in aid for you 2) You tell us what you want to "buy" from US manufacturers 3) We "buy" it for you, and you take delivery Everywhere but Israel, where this happens: 1) We give you $3billion every year, up front 2) You skim 25% off the top to spend at home 3) You then go shopping in the USA with what's left, provided that the manufacturers run the list by us before delivery. Because Israel can skim 25% right off the top then the USA is effectively subsidizing an overseas military/industrial competitor to the tune of $600 million each and every year, plus Israel gets to earn interest on that money, rather than Uncle Sam. Sweeeeeet, isn't it?
TTC: "Such field testing is worth gold, literally, making the fighter planes more marketable." Well, considering that the IDF has spent over 20 years collecting heaps o' data on how to bomb helpless civilian poplns from the air, yeah, that'd be marketing gold when it comes to selling these planes to some of the more, ahem, disreputable regimes around the world. Not likely to appear on the glossy brochures, mind you....... TTL: "So, the US tax payer actually profits from the investment of providing planes to an ally." Gonna have to boost the sales a lot to recoup $9.75 billion dollars. Because that's how much it will end up costing the US taxpayer should Uncle Sam gift these planes to the IDF... It'd be waaaay cheaper just to bribe those tinpot dictators to buy the 75 F-35s that the USA could sell if they didn't give them away to the IDF. Heck, not ONLY cheaper, but much more moral to boot. Win-win for everyone. Well, except for one....
Considering that there isn't any "new" developments to report anywhere in this article.... Israel is still trying to beat the price down, even as it wants the optional extras fitted. The USA is still trying to get top dollar, even as it insists on selling Israel the standard model. Yeah..... and?
"The F-35 does not appear the total fiasco the F-22 was, but it is still behind schedule WAY over cost, and far below guaranteed performance. - Mark Lincoln Reportedly, the F-35 does not disintegrate in rain as does the F-22. Has this been tested?
The Israeli pilots, arguably the most experienced ones in the world in real war situations, will provide invaluable data to US plane manufacturers. Such field testing is worth gold, literally, making the fighter planes more marketable. So, the US tax payer actually profits from the investment of providing planes to an ally.
All the Arabs need to do to ensure that Israel will not use any weapons to maime and kill its peoples, is to refrain from first attacking Israeli civilians. Comprende.
extremists, enemies of all civilization, unless of course you count yourself as an islamic extremist. then prepare for your death. and get out of our land. back to the desert where you came rom.
You are correct that the Lebanese and Gazan People are the victims but not of Israel's aggression but of the Arab leaders and their arrogance and disregard for their people's well-being.
"The largest defense deal in Israeli history, for the purchase of the F-35 stealth fighter aircraft" to "purchase" is to buy something with your own money, Israel gets its money from the American tax payer, therefore, Americans are buying those aircraft's with their own money and pretty much just parking them in Israel!
the IAI will then sell on the aftermarket? Does this disadvantage the American contractors building the plane? What is the view of the US Congress on this issue? Am I missing something?
F35 is not designed for Israels paticular requirements its for NATO Its got a short range because all fuel tanks had to be internal for the sake of stealth & add external tanks you loose stealth. It doesn't have the manouvarbility of F16 It has a small bomb bay & if you want to carry more weapons under the wings you loose stealth Its too expensive even without it being convereted to carry Israeli munitions & avionics If we don't install them & buy off the shelf plane we have no tactical advantage and its going to cost Israel companies alot of money Better a European jet like Typhoon ( probably best multi role fighter out there ) I am sure Germany will give us a good deal as they are one of the makers. The Saab Grippen cost price about $60 million, designed for take off & landing on short civilian roads which is ideal for Israel. Both Typhoon & Grippen are already set p to carry Israeli munitons & Europeans are easy going about things like avionics BUY EUROPEAN OR BUILD OUR OWN
It's against US law.... (hint: Symington amendment, pass it on...)
Arabs and Muslims have memory and would one day, if not alreay, ask western powers for accountability in their endless supports for Israel destructive wars and arrogance. With these state of the art weapons, Gaza , Lebanon , other Arabs and Muslims will surely be the expected victims. Obama, like his predecessors and followers is bound to support Israel and give cheap talks to Arabs and Muslims. But as for the British, Soviets, the US and Nato will fail miserably.
The F-35 is a NATO project and should stay so during the entire development phase. It should not be sold as an offensive platform or strategic platform.
...one way or another. It is not in the US's interests for an Israeli attack on Iran, even Bush junior knew it.
"Assuming Lockheed maintains its original production timetable the first fighters will be delivered in 2014." - Aimless Harel Lockheed has never failed to deliver very late and way over budget for the last half century. And, I might add, far below the performance specified. The F-35 does not appear the total fiasco the F-22 was, but it is still behind schedule WAY over cost, and far below guaranteed performance. But what other alternative is there? None.
i searched for information in the article about financing 2.5 billion dollars, minimum cost. Is there a reason why this information was omitted?
The F-35 is far less than promised at far higher cost. But it is the only option available, and since the US will pay for it, why not?
The gullible American tax payers of course. Dropping their pants for Israel again in the name of strong committments to Israel's security. WOW, the poor American people are thrown out of their homes because of the financial crisis which does not show any signs of recovery either. God bless the american people and all those they 'democratically elect' as their congressmen and representative.
Real Americans defend Israel!
the jet won't get you there without tanker support anyway. no real change except for stealth capability; and that's not necassarily infallible. they say it IS the new toy to have, though...lol.
Obama has Netanyahu thumb his nose at him, and then sends him twenty-five of the latest American jets. Boy that'll show him!