Katsav accuser gave conflicting testimony on rape allegations

Dear Carlitos, it is not only the salary of Katzav. It is a whole year or more of salaries of top investigators, lawyers, and the office of the ministry of Justice. That are many, many millions!!

why we all like to be fooled.Don't we get it. The whole accusation was made in order to take Katzav out of the way because he is not part of the system. How interesting, he is out and again, the big looser, sorry the big Shimon Perez and the same bunch of guys, are in. Strange isn't????

The questioning is difficult. The memory of a girl in distress is not focussed on details. A lawyer as Feldman will go into details, and then conclude A is a liar. Do not let it come so far. His sex organ, close to, touching or penetrating during a struggle had not to be there at all. Thats rape!

My best friend is a police Officer with special training in investigating rape. In 20 years, she has never investigated a legitimate rape. I am a 40 year old woman who could not be more pro female. But after the Duke Lacrosse case this year, I now feel that it is time to start naming the female victim.Or quit naming the male until the court case is completed.

What were these women doing when a 5 foot man without any martial knowledge was raping them? Were they holding his hat and his umbrella? Were they tied the Japanese way? How long did it take them -- in days or weeks or months -- before suing? If Katsav is innocent he should sue everyone who has been involved in his premature conviction. Including and up to the highest jerk in the government.

I wonder who is behind this cabbale to frame Katsav. Is this a settlement between sepharads and vouz vouz? When will this stupid war ends and when will the vouz vouz accept in their midst their sepharads "brothers"? Katsav should have never thrown the towel. As it now appears he has been dubbed of a Katsanova with a huge drive for sex. Give me a break!

It is clear that A is an unreliable witness. If she lied about one thing in her claim who knows if she didnot make everything up. This is a criminal case and the norm is that ifa witness made provably contradictory statements to enhance her charge, then the presumption is that she embellished everything. AS for accepting the plea bargain,the alternative of a trial would be extremely expensive and could and most likely drag on for years. Accepting a suspended sentence is logically the correct thing to do, wheter guilty or not. As for lie detector tests they are unreliable.

usually i dont follow the talkback, so i'm not aware of the political direction of "clickfool", but it seems to me that this guy here is attacked unreasonably. what he is writing about the katsav case is simply excellent.

was a very good President - so what is the basis for your assumption that he was the worse and why get Shas into the picture. As I have said leaving aside the present issues unproven at this stage, what bad things has Katsav done as President?

This is redicoulous. How to make a witness uncertain 101: Repeat questions untill YOU have an answer YOU think is clear. If I ask anybody the same question twice, they`l begin to question their answers. To remember something like that in forms of penetrate or not penetrate is irelevant. Rape is not a penis entering something, rape is to take someones dignity by force. Each question an interviewer asks a witness inserts error into the responses. The best interviewer gets the answers he needs without asking spesific questions. Spesific questions imposes the world view of the interviwer onto the witnsess. Not a good idea if you want the truth.

Welcome to the world. Lots of men do the same. It is part of life. And we women do the same in reverse. We dress to kill and encourage what we get, which lots of us are looking for. Both sexes are as innocent or as guilty. I feel sorry for Katsav because he really is too old for these games and is obviously past it.

Of course I read the article and understood it since I agree with it. I never said he should be tried on the basis of rumors. I said the confusion of A should not detract from the fact that there were other complainants and a certain reputation of being very " physically enterprising" with women. I am not speaking about my housekeeper but about journalists and politicians (read the Akiba Eldar piece about it) He is fighting? Are you joking? An innocent does not enter a plea of guilty but goes to court to prove his innocence or/and sues the complainants for slander.The moment he agreed to the plea, he recognised that his chances of being proved innocent were slim. The connection with Shas is that they voted por a mediocre person and helped him being the worst president Israel ever had. They were not the only ones but they promised to vote for Peres.

To be ABSOLUTELY certain about the DEGREE of the penetration, perhaps they should have measured Katzav's p.... and asked A how many centimeters of it she recalls feeling. If she recalls fewer centimeters then the actual measured length, then it was ony "partial" . Case solved ! Steven

to defend him. You know the saying, "If the gloves don't fit you must acquit" And by the way, on what basis do you now assume that A is a victim. I would say that Katsav is the victim. We will deal with the others as proper information becomes available and not just innuendo and suppositions. And if they show that Katsav is guilty of serious and not just frivolous misdemeanours, I will have no problem joining the hanging brigade and the feminists from hell.

Full penetration is not necessary to be defined as rape. Even the slightest or partial penetration is deemed rape if the act is committed without consent. The persistence of the police interrogators on this issue suggests that they themselves were not completely clear about what they were trying to find out. If one takes into account the element of struggle inherent in the situation, A's apparently inconsistent accounts where she is not wholly sure if there was slight, partial or complete penetration, become wholly believable.

"if the doubts that this article raises is supposed to make the prez look good and discredit the witness..it sure ain`t working on me.." - Meir Gush Etzion Me too. Lex dura, lex est. So one witness is not a very good witness. I accepted the plea bargain as it would have let everyone out of a bad situation with Katsav being allowed to slink off stage and into retirement after a confession. Instead of doing so, he has launched a smear campaign in an attempt to deny what he essentially confessed to when he accepted the plea bargain deal. This case has made no one look good. Any doubts I may have had as to the accusations and character of Katsav have been removed. I am now certain he is guilty.

Why are you concerned?, it's NOT your money even though you captioned letter with "Where my money goes?"

ON THIS EVIDENCE ANY COMPETENT JUDGE WOULD HAVE STOPPED THE CASE IN 10 MINS

The actual indictment, following the plea bargain, is so mild that it will allow Katzav to explain away all this incident as non-sexual in nature (although in court he will have to admit to a sexual assault). In the indictment the "event" is describes, supposedly. But what is mentioned is a hug, a kiss, and touching the woman's leg. You don't hear about pulling her pants off, sexual organs touching, etc. Katzav will be able to hang the statement of the indictment on his wall, show people what a friendly man he is, and warn everyone not to be too friendly with female workers, or risk getting into trouble like himself. This is a shameful outcome of the affair; shame on the Attroney General.

"A is a scheming liar" So... what do you think, S.Judah? Should Katsav drop the plea bargain and prove his innocence in court? Or would you rather just dump crap on his victims?

Israel now has an 80 year plus old President, so you will no longer need to worry about "abject shame" on Israel.

Regardless if there was peneration or what-have-you, Katsaz has been sexually pestering the women in his various offices for years, and he should now account for his escapades in a court of law, and find it within himself to offer apologies and compensation to his vistims. He has ruined them, and they have lost every vestige of privacy. Enough is enough. He disgraces us individually as Israelis, and collectively as a nation.

"You are the one who wrote that "Katsav should be beaten senseless with a barge pole."" When did I do that, Ovadiah? The only vaguely similar post I left was one in which I agreed with the Haaretz headline writer. He suggested a public burning at the stake for Katsav. I thought that a little excessive, but went along with the idea just to be sociable.

Rape? The testimony of this person suggests that the only person who has been raped is Katsav by the media and teh feminist hounds of hell. When A cannot make up her mind as to what happened, why do we have to believe anything happened? Katsav may have done a lot of flirting and the like and other foolish things, but thats a far cry from a lynching and hanging offences the rabble have been after.

what counts most in my mind is that 10 women took lie detector tests regarding the former presidents assaults on them and they passed the test.katsav refused to take a lie detector test in this matter and to my knowledge still hasn't taken one.if you want to know if he is innocent get a petition going for him to be forced to take the test.

Whether Katzav is guilty or not... Whether "A" is credible or not.... this testimony reminds me of Abbott and Costello's "Who's on First" routine. Who's on first base? That's right. Who? That's what I said.. What? Second base..

if the doubts that this article raises is supposed to make the prez look good and discredit the witness..it sure ain't working on me.. I feel more sorry for the witness..who besides being hurt must fit into the tight framework of legal definitions...as this thing call prez katsav behavior and lack of compassion for his victims is attrocious.. maybe legally he has a case...but then they could only get Al Capone on minor offences too..

I do not understand why the citizens of Israel have to pay the salary of Katsav? Taxes are very expensive to spend in this kind of people.

Now that the allegations against Katsav have crumbled, why don't you put your anger to better use. If you need so desperately to find something wrong with Israel, you need look no further than the politicization of its police/justice system which made a sucker out of you as well as many Israelis. But no. You are the one who wrote that "Katsav should be beaten senseless with a barge pole." You are a lynch-mob rabble-rouser, pure and simple. You have zero credibility now. Zero.

Leadership is no better than the common man. Prince Charles philandered for years, proudly displaying his extra marital relationships. One of the princes bears no resemblance to the man who should have been his father. The Princess enjoyed lovers on the side, she didn't get along too well with the future King. President Clinton had his foibles. And there you sit, blathering your endless stream of hate at Israel, when there's so much going on under your snoopy nose. Best of all, Israel is a mere sixty years old, the Royals have been practicing their brand of playing around for well over a thousand.

When one accuses someone of rape it is not the time to get confused. Emotional yes, confused to her degree no. The 7 complaints should be addressed seperately and justly according to the facts. Would you agree to be prosecuted for a crime based on persistant rumors? He is fighting. I am not niave and I am politically neutral. What has this to do with Shas or Peres??? Did you really read and understand the facts in this article?

That its President should be revealed to be a groping, raping scumbag without an ounce of character is the ultimate disgrace for Israel. The failure to take Katsav to trial, and now this organised campaign to cast doubt even on the indecent assualt charges which he has admitted to, simply represents an attempt to lesson the abject shame of Israel.

1.) the newspaper is no place to "try" this case. This is for the experts in a court of law. What you are doing is disgusting and distorting. 2.) according to all the research in rape cases, and victimization by a superior, the confusion is not uncommon. 3.) for anyone else out there who thinks it is particularly easy to discuss such issues, I would like to invite them to the same situation and see if they are much more coherent. i find this discussion in this forum of the media inappropriate, superficial, sensationalistic and only hurts the women who have been attacked and their decision to go to the police.

So that's all? the whole deal is about whether penetration took place - and if not then Katsav gets off?? Disgusting . He is a creep and who knows how he got to be president as obviously this behaviour is nothing new with him

What is this? I was raped, July 20, 1980 in Los Angeles, CA. There was no penetration; not after I got done with him. It was still rape and the police came, investigated, and arrested the man. He went to trial and was convicted of rape. The attorney general needs to get educated.

First she denied The Sunday Times interview, then admitted it. Then she wasn't sure if she was raped on 'three or four' occasions. Now she wasn't sure if he penetrated her -- but remembers he asked her to use birth control before he 'raped' her! As the plot thickens the credibility of her evidence evaporates!

Not total penetration, not total truth. It's evident this woman is not really telling the truth. What was she doing alone with him "after the event in the Tel-Aviv convention center"? A woman senses pretty well, when a man is attracted by her and if she voluntarily placed herself in a 'dangerous' situation, she must take full responsability of her exposure. Was she inspired by Monica Levinsky's affaire with Clinton? Why wait so many years to talk about? Blackmail didn't pay? Why all this bla-bla? Let's be clear, buddies. When a woman says no, it's NO. Unless she's FULLY raped!

Katsav probably did had an affair with "A" of Beit Nassi. But it seems to me, from what has been published so far, that both these women were coached and used as torpedoes to bring Katsav down. The blurriness of their testimony derives from them covering themselves for allegations of false accusation. The charges of impropriety in the affair of the "silver goblets" have also been dropped. This stinks from top to bottom. Using the police for political attacks is not new. They did it to Bibi and Sarah Netanyahu and also lost in the end. Investigate the police and the AG NOW !!

This is a text book case for an open trial with the accused facing his accuser. Let there be an end to inuendoes and trial by media. The public has a right to know about their former president. Let it be agreed in advance that if found guilty he will spend no time in jail.

You didn't answer me, Peter. You seem to think he's innocent of all charges, even those of indecent assault. Shouldn't he therefore cancel the plea deal? Straight answer, please. He's either innocent or he's guilty (as agreed with the AG).

While I do think Katzav is not innocent of innapropriate behavior, A's testimony is completley ridiculous. I doubt Katzav threw her on the floor and ripped her panties off and shoved himself "1/2" inside her for 2 or 10 or 3 or who cares how long seconds. It doesnt add up. This chick is trying to get something out of Katzav and its become a joke. If this thing went to court full blown trial... forgetting he was president, her tesitmony would show lie after lie and Katzav would walk anyways.

Are you familiar with ALL the evidential details in this or other accusations? The Arabs do not act on your profound insights why should the Israelis? Are you a fool with nothing to do but keep making a fool of himself?

A testimony is somehow confused. What about the other 7 complainants? What about the persistent rumours? The fact he accepted the plea is proof enough. An innocent fights and he doesn't lack energy. No Dreyfuss he! Are you so naive or is it your political afiliation who makes you ignore the obvious? The real culprit is Shas who promised to vote for Peres but prefered an perfect mediocrity who put Israel to shame. Not to see all that is indeed to be dumb.

So exactly which one of those three scenarios does Katsav think befits a president? and which of those do the loyal citizens of Kiryat Malachi think go with the job?

Is it really necessary to plaster this detailed account on the Internet? What is gained by it aside of satisfying the lust of the voyeurs who want to know every last detail of what did or did not happen. Don't you have computer generated illustrative pictures to go with it? This tramples on the privacy of both former President Katsav and 'A'. What justification does Haaretz have for this?

I am seriously worried that KATSAVS ongoing denials and victimisation theories will drop this country deeper and deeper into the mud. Soon the battle will be a cultural battle -herein lies the contrast between WESTERN AND EASTERN CULTURES . I am certain KATSAV beleives he is innocent -HE STATES HE IS INNOCENT -just making an agreement, a plea bargain. Hundreds of people in the know that worked near him over the years -THEY KNEW THE TRUTH - I THINK THIS CASE SHOULD GO TO THE SUPREME COURT THE HIGHEST JUSTICE IN THE LAND . GREAT DAMAGE IS BEING DONE TO ISRAELS IMAGE -LETS GO FOR A CONCLUSION. GOD HELP HIM IF HE IS GUILTY . JACK.

You seem to agree that Katsav did commit a series of indecent assaults on his victim. In the plea bargain, Katsav himself admits it too. Now that he's clear of the possibility of jail time, he's trying to portray himself as being entirely innocent of ALL crimes, including indecent assault. That he was framed, it was a political plot etc etc What so you think of that, Don? Shouldn't Katsav now withdraw from the plea bargain?

So, Peter - you seem to think that Katsav is innocent of all charges. Should he now withdraw his plea bargain?

Do you guys all agree that the plea bargain should now be withdrawn? Or are you just happy that Katsav escaped jail time, and you can now devote all your efforts to blackening his victims? Spin, innuendo and insults - great, aren't they, guys?

It is perfectly apparent from the spin that is taking place that Katsav believes he is entirely innocent of all charges. It would therefore be totally wrong for the plea deal to proceed. These matters should be dealt with in open court. Let's see how confident Katsav's legal team ARE of their client's innocence. If they don't withdraw from the plea bargain, they believe their client is guilty.

From A's testimony, there is no question that her employer violated the law. She was not a willing participant. The question of penetration is technical. Attempted rape is also punishable by jail. The difference between a King, who is above the law, and Israeli politicans is that corrupt and criminal politicans must be punished. Otherwise, the entire system will collapse.

Its possible that "A" is living in a bad dream, fantasy or wants to make some easy cash.

he harassed her, maybe tried to kiss her or touch her breast or grope her and she has turned it into a rape story. sexual assult should be taken seriously and Katsav got what he deserved, a lot of embarassment but it seems pretty clear he didn't rape her.

"this womenen has a psychological Problem", well .....most women run into some mental storm after being sexually harassed by her boss over a long period of time. Remember there are 7 more victims? Also, what is the source of this protocols - most likely Zion Amir or one of his team.

He is Israeli he must be guilty eh? Simple minded mob psychology amongst the self annointed guardians of human rights.

preaching at Israeli society,go sort out your own rapists and your insane obsession with criticising Israel at every opportunity.. Isn't it wonderful to be as pure as you people or the Arabs who seem to have no faults at all?

1. Woman bad. 2. Man want woman.

This woman wanted to get something: first by sexual favors and when that did not work through a law suit. Why did she continue to be alone with him when he had already made advances? Beware: Some women are bad and revenegful.

On Kol Israel I heard that the police investigators had no doubt about A's allegations. She passed the lie detector and was wiretapped. I think articles like these are published so the decision to keep Kazav out of jail is justified. Any other sex offender had been in jail already.

I don't know who is worse: the woman who has obvious psychological problems, the police and the prosecutor who accepted her various unreliable statments as facts or the media for ruining a man who was not guilty of what the media kept on reporting about him as fact (in order to increase their readership and advertising revenues). In the end, these 4 accusers are more guilty and they all stink.

What is half penetration? Does this mean that Katzav only deserved to lose half of his Presidency?

i agree, to expose those kind of things is a shame.

It's totally academic whether this ogre actually penetrated A or not. There's obviously enough disgusting behaviour for him to get down on his knees now and implore forgiveness, from A, from the other victims, from Gila, and from the people of Israel. And yet he and his lawyers are partitipating in press interviews declaring his (relative) innocence......

It is an absolute disgrace that evidential material like this is published before the matter has been disposed of in the courts. Who leaked this material to the press? Forget Katsav, the disregard of normative behaviour in the running of the legal system will do far more harm to the fabric of Israeli society thn any plea bargain. I hope the Supreme Court takes this up when it hears the petitions on this matter.

Review the "Duke Rape Case" in North Carolina USA... A runaway District Attorney, Mike Nifong, seeking re-election pursued three innocent students who were falsely accused of rape... Same circumstances, accuser kept changing her story... End result was the State Attorney General stepped in, threw out the charges... Students were exonerated. They are their families are suing the ex-District Attorney for the millions of dollars they spent to free their boys. District Attorney has been kicked out of office, disbarred, can't practice Law in North Carolina, and is now on trial for his own criminal acts against the boys...Seems this may a possible repeat, AG seeking fame and fortune pulls the same type of shtick.

A propos of almost nothing, your post reminded me of Kissinger's reply when questioned, some decades ago, about his relationship with Liv Ullman. When asked why such a Norwegian beauty would be seen in public dating such an ugly dwarf/frog, he responded "Power is the greatest aphrodasiac." And there you go: that pretty much sums up the assumptions and sense of entitlement that go along with male achievements and power. People often say that rapists and other sexual deviants should be castrated. Not me: I think that whenever a man achieves any sort of power, he should be asked to choose between that position and castration. (I'm joking...almost.)

My initial response to the plea bargain was that it was a good deal for both sides. Opponents of Mr. Katsav chose to make an issue over the deal. This did not surprise me. What was a surprise was when Mr. Katsav chose to make an issue over the deal he had cut. A man who had been protected from any major consequence from possible actions by agreeing to plead guilty in exchange for an inconsequential punishment started whining about being persecuted. If there was nothing to the accusations why did he agree to plead that they were correct? Folks, I can see how a predator would hit upon the most questionable and vulnerable. I can also see how one plaintiff could be unreliable. What I cannot see is why a prosecutor went forward if there were no substance to the charges, nor why Mr. Katsav would agree to plead guilty to avoid punishment if the charges were baseless. The question facing Israel is NOT whether a former Tourism Ministry employee or Mr. Katsav is the bigger liar.

Can I presume that Israeli JUSTICE is at the very bottom and it was really raped? This A does not have any credibility. I think all this entertainment is a fiction and it was well paid.

That he deserved to remain President of Israel or not? That A was aggressed or not?

From the published testimony, I can see doubts in rape allegation and I think in the eye of the law, the judge's decision was correct.

Never good when your alleged (until Katsav is proven guilty) victim and key witness essentially changes her story and gives different versions of events...