Israel: We won't assist 'obsessive' UN Gaza flotilla probe
Decision not to cooperate with the UN committee has not been announced officially, but is expected to be made this week.
By Jack Khoury, Barak Ravid and Shlomo ShamirIsrael does not intend to cooperate with the United Nations Human Rights Council's investigation into Israel's interception of a Gaza-bound flotilla at the end of May. The raid resulted in nine deaths.
According to a senior Israeli official, the sense at the Foreign Ministry, the Defense Ministry and the Prime Minister's Office is that cooperating with the investigative committee would only confer legitimacy upon the UNHRC, which has consistently acted against Israel.
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Aharon Leshno Yaar, Israel's UN envoy in Geneva |
| Photo by: AP |
"This is an unnecessary committee," the official said, "which is the product of an obsession with Israel."
The decision not to cooperate with the UN committee has not been announced officially, but is expected to be made this week. It is believed it will be accompanied, however, by a decision to cooperate with a separate flotilla committee acting on behalf UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon. The secretary general's team is expected to examine the conclusions of Israel's Turkel Committee as well as the results of a Turkish investigation into the flotilla incident.
Although the decision by the Human Rights Council to look into the case was made two months ago, the makeup of its investigative panel was only announced Friday. The committee will consist of Desmond de Silva of Britain, the former chief prosecutor of the UN war crimes tribunal on events in the African country of Sierra Leone; International Criminal Court judge Karl Hudson-Phillips of Trinidad; and Mary Shanthi Dairiam of Malaysia, a women's rights activist.
The three-member panel is to submit its conclusions by mid-September, before which it is expected to try and visit Israel, Gaza and Turkey. In light of Jerusalem's expected decision not to cooperate with the panel, it is not thought the members will be allowed into Israel.
Over the weekend, Israel prepared for a possible attempt by another flotilla, this time from Lebanon, to run the Gaza naval blockade. Syria and Hezbollah are thought to be organizing the flotilla in an effort to divert international attention from the imminent release of conclusions from an investigation into the assassination of former Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri.
Defense Minister Ehud Barak sent a message to Lebanon over the weekend demanding the government there stop the flotilla. The Lebanese government, however, vehemently denied that any such flotilla is in the offing.
The country's transportation minister, Ghazi al-Aridi, told the daily Lebanese newspaper An-Nahar he was unaware of any such plans. He said that if he did ever receive such a request, it would be considered based on applicable laws and regulations. Al-Aridi added that Lebanon supports the Palestinians, but is committed above all to observing international law.
On Thursday, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Barak and Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman decided to release the Mavi Marmara and two other Turkish ships that were part of the flotilla at the end of May and had been towed to port in Israel. Despite earlier demands that the ships' owners promise the vessels would not be used in future Gaza-bound flotillas, the three Israeli leaders decided to release the ships unconditionally.
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Who would be foolish enogh to give any credence to thiese people particularely when they have a Malasian fundementalist.It is just only perpetuating the agony which will end no soner than it beginsTrust me it willjust fizzle out in no time at all and Israel couldn't care two cents what they think.What I do Object is he eturing of the ships that caused so much troubles for Israelto return that NOW HAT IS THE WORS ting they can do.Giving comfort to the turks who wee he initiators of the dsmally omiting there so many THUG on board who caused mayham.The best scenario would be for ISRAEL TO USE THEM AS IN A SORT OF A PICTURE SHOW OF WHAT THE TURKS REALL ACHIEVED WHICH WAS ZERO TOLLERANCE.. P/S NOW HAARETZ BE SURE TO PUBLISH THIS WHEN YOU AWAKEN TOMORROW MORN'
in Hamand Province by helicopters of ISAF (Int. Stabilization Afganistan Force) aka NATO. Its either a bRitish or US helicopter form NATO forces. Reported by BBC News!!! Unless of course 45 Afgan civilians are not important compared to 10 IHH trained terrorist on the Turkish ship.
tautologies are tautologies. "i am at risk in my home in the US." mark, if you feel at risk in your home, then the terrorists have achieved their goal of terrorising you. "It is not a matter of legiitimacy or legality." if war can be waged anytime for any and no reason then the laws of war need not be observed. any terrorist can blow up anyone anywhere and the act will be considered valid. good thinking, mark.
George Bush invited al Qaida and the Taliban to "bring it on." That is reality. Wars are waged at any time and usually for economic reasons. For all your rhetoric, look at the underlying economics. Why is Israel interested in Gaza's natural resources, gas? Why is Israel interested in the water and Gas of Southern Lebanon? Why does Israel not want Lebanon extracting Gas in Lebanese waters? Why is Israel preventing the rebuilding of schools and food processing facilities in Gaza?
sovereign states are not people who go through psychological evolutions. so stop projecting your own immature state of mind on nations. look up what it means to be a sovereign. psychobabble does not apply and it is not part of the lexicon of international law.
They interviewed the dead terrorists and were told that while they were sun bathing on the poop deck the Israelis swept down and killed them. The final draft report is done so there in no need for a further investigation.
Goldstone should have been a learning tool for them but those people live in their own world.
It should be changed to it's more appropriate name. The UFCIN (United Finance Committee for Islamic Nationalism). Since oil money pretty much funds most UN resolutions and agendas, the newer name is much more fitting.
Now put the blame on "Islam" and the leftists (God knows what that means !!!) yesterday it was Arafat and the fedayins ! many israelis have that amazing ability to put the blame on others. That's the easiest shorcut !
notwithstanding the unfortunate dilemma of the GAZA issue, the Flotilla, the ongoing failures of IDF and the Israel intelligence ,if any, this country is intent on self destructing by continuing a policy nt understood by any other country on earth. Thew policy of denial, nion co operation continued paranoia of its people as we see on this site, togetehr with the same paranoia desplayed by this country's politicans, I dont see Israel lasting more than a decade longer. Now it says it wont assist in UN investigation. In that case how can this country help itself com e out of the pitiful state its in. Thew answer is it wont.Israel will continue util it destroys itself morally and politically.
But Israel has just become the latest member of the OECD with more non-Muslim states lining up to establish ties with the Jewish state of Israel ,so try again Palestinian John Peters ?
And we all know how Israel became a member of OECD - despite including settlement products in it's economic data (illegal), and excluding the occupied Palestinian population in it's population count (illegal). We know Israel has friends in high places. In spite of this, Israel now has to show other countries in the OECD that it will comply with this organization's humanitarian and ethical policies...
I agree much of what you write; but may I humbly suggest that you proof read and review ;your texts before you make them public.
no matter how much your levantine mind dreams on such a scenario. If Moslem evel islamofashism tries to anihilate Israel they will go down in flash. Get it in your hallucinating mind.
They try but are caught up in their deceit. Yes more non-Muslim state are indeed lining up to estebluish ties with Israel.But to the likes of so-called (peter) deny it .Tough on him and likes.
it must behave in a responsible and fair manner. That means investigating all human right violations, not just the popular wants that the masses want to see burnt at the stake. It must also try to maintain partiality. Individual UNHRC states and the UNHRc istelf condemned Israel early on, before hearing israel's version of events. How could a party that has already decided who was guilty then be used as a "jury?" Isn't impartiality the basic prerequisite for a legitimate investagation. Result: the UNHRC ruled itself out as a fair and impartial investigator of Israel, and of this incident is particular.
But then expect contradicions to your correct version of things.Reading a few responders here ISRAEL IS GUILTY BEFORE PROVEN INNOCENT. In short the UN party pris are IS BEING JUDGE AND JURY in one and the same goal. Gosh I came her quite accidently and see the chaotic verbiage by some...I am not talking about the knowledgeable ones,but the ignorant and biased lot that this is like manna from heaven. Pity there are not more people like yourself. But then we cannot be lucky enough I guess. Incidently I saw yours quite accidently,decided okay,I'll read what it says and go on my way.But then SURPRISE!!! It was a voice of reason,thank the lord.
Are acting as JUDGE AND JURY at the same instance.The sooner the UN is desestablish the better for the decent members.Unlike the dictators with dismal human rights including of course the Arabs in the ME ..
Somebody who grew up with the racist hatred and lies pumped put under Dr Mohamed? When is the UNHRC going to investigate the insititutionalised apartheid and treatment of refugees and penalties for leaving Islam in Malaysia
Goldstone's investigation was a product of the UNHRC, and the Israelis concluded that they shot themselves in the foot when they refused to cooperate with his investigation. And now along comes another UNHRC investigation and...... Israel refuses to cooperate with it. Is **anyone** advising this Israeli govt? Anyone? Anyone. At. All?
Dumboy thinks all circumstances are the same. That's because he has no brain. Since I've repeatedly attempted to post the following on another thread, without success, I will do so here... Dumboy: "War" replaced by "armed conflict" as a legal construct in 1945! Geneva Conventions, international law? Check. Written after 1945? Check. Mention term "war," as a "legal construct" dozens of times?" Check. Dumboy atrociously dimwitted? Emphatic check! YOU are the ignorant oaf and far removed from anything resembling a legal expert.
@SDHD: salience? More importantly, I fail to see how calling "Johnboy" names refutes his main point. I assume you think it would not be wise for Israel to cooperate with the "flotilla" probe. Why?
Experience shows that Argument only persuades those who are prepared to be open minded. The UNHRC has only ever shown bias towards Israel and the terms set by them for the Goldstone Commission showed this. There is no reason to believe that the latest 'Probe' by this agancy will be any different and Israel is right not to cooperate with it since it arguments will one way or another be turned against it or be undermined by the form of presentation given to them in the Report.. Israel should continue with its own investigation and make this as fair and open as possible and it is also right to cooperate with the Ban Ki Moon process. Ban Ki Moon is unable to be as blatently biased asthe UNHRC because of the US and EU who will be quick to denounce him if he is..
"obsession," "irrational hatred," etc etc. what's more likely, that the rest of the planet has an irrational hatred for israel and/or jews. or that israel/jews is doing something wrong and the world is reacting rationally?
The expressions on the faces of other UN representatives says it all..disgust and anger yet again.
Where have there been major populations of Jews? Europe? Nearly all wiped out. Russia? Once the gates were open, many of them left. The Middle East? Nearly all Jews expelled. The only place with a major Jewish population which wasn't systematically abused is the U.S. What a coincidence that it's the only country which stands up for Israel. Europe, Russia, the other Middle Eastern countries have had it in for Jews for centuries.
How about Turkey?
Lets look at some of the UN Human Rights Commission, shall we? Mauritania (where slavery is still legal), Sudan (where genocide is currently happening), Zimbabwe (one of the worst human rights abusers on Earth) People's Republic of China, Pakistan (the home of the Taliban and Al Qaeda), Saudi Arabia (where women can’t drive), Cuba (a communist totalitarian state)... It's actually funny that commenter at this site take this commission seriously.
At least fascist, rogue and apartheid state Israel is not in the commission, it would be worse.
To convert Jewish you need to approval from inquisition. Arab citizen of Israel is third class. The constitution states that Israel is Jewish state when democracies must be secular. Israel genocide against Palestine and its people. They built war to seperate ppl. They do not recognize 32433432 million resolution by UN. And this Joe Gelman dude is complaing about others. It is pathetic.
May be oddly, but it reminds me of average adolescents who do not let parents into their rooms in name of freedom, independence and right to privacy when they want to avoid proper adult involvement. It is undeniable that foreigners had been killed abroad during a legitimate, though extremely delayed, demonstration of protest and human solidarity. The fact that we do not discern any wrong in all of our deeds and views is one of our most serious shortcomings. Even so, a fit government, unlike the mobs, is supposed to consider, and meet, any possible outcome of its decisions.
What the heck are you talking about?
The most difficult part of Islamic Law for most westerners to grasp is that there is no separation of church and state. The religion of Islam and the government are one. Islamic Law is controlled, ruled and regulated by the Islamic religion. The theocracy controls all public and private matters. Government, law and religion are one. There are varying degrees of this concept in many nations, but all law, government and civil authority rests upon it and it is a part of Islamic religion. There are civil laws in Muslim nations for Muslim and non-Muslim people. Shar'iah is only applicable to Muslims. Most Americans and others schooled in Common Law have great difficulty with that concept.The U.S. Constitution (Bill of Rights) prohibits the government from "establishing a religion." The U.S. Supreme Court has concluded in numerous cases that the U.S. Government can't favour one religion over another. That concept is implicit for most U.S. legal scholars and many U.S. academicians believe that any mixture of "church and state" is inherently evil and filled with many problems. They reject all notions of a mixture of religion and government. To start with such preconceived notions limits the knowledge base and information available to try and solve many social and criminal problems
of Human Rights which is not based on koranic laws of sharia and such? is that why the jihadists do not respect western human rights and regards life as cheap?
Israel has done everything in its power to demonstrate its beautiful face after attacking activists (Moslems and Christians/Arab and non Arab) in international water: confiscating films and produce a fake one on the incident, easing the siege, faking an internal investigation... Now what Israel fear of is the disclosure of the ugly truth. Strange that israeli are opposing this. Cursing the UN to be pro-arab and pro- palestinian and pro-islamic!
Although I find it difficult to understand, if Israel was acting in accordance to international law and the soldiers events are a truthful account of what occured. What has Israel got to hide?
Of course Chris its not suprising your jumping on the investigation bandwagon against Israel. Anything to aid in the deligimization of Israel. Israel is conducting its own investigation into this minor incident. Now what if the UN was going to investigate the Brits or the AMericans for their bloody actions in Iraq or Afghanistan. Oh I forgot hell would freeze over before such an investigation would even be considered.
But those Somali Muslim pirates off the Gulf of Aden also disregard international law by hijacking international shipping in international waters ,why the hypocrisy and deceit Chris Linthwaite ?
It is nothing to do with the delegitimization of israel. It is about investigating the deaths of 8 Turks and 1 American in International waters 90 miles from Gaza. If Israel's actions are legal in International Law then why doesn't Israel co-operate with the investigation. And if turkey killed 9 Israelis delivering aid to the PKK in Kurdistan I bet you wouldn't be calling it a minor incident.
the Somali pirates, an operation where yet again Israel is conspicuous by it's absence yet Israelis and Israel firsters seem so worried about them they do not hesitate to use Somali pirates as an example of why Israel should be allowed to do what it likes. The naval operation against the Somali pirates is authorised by the UN BtW, and the actions of the international naval force which includes Iran is more than covered by the same sections of San Remo that Israel is accused to have broken. Going to be interesting me thinks.
Its very simple to understand unless your in the same mindset as the sinister human rights commission. No other nation has been condemnd or investigated more than Israel. With all the pressing human rights issue most recently as in Krygstan this is small operation requires an investigation. Please Chris dont insult mine or any other rational person intelligence. This is investigation is based on hate and a vendetta to deligitimize Israel . Pure and simple.
The Somali muslim pirates caught during hijacking activities are now serving jail sentences - not in Somalia. A number were killed in various incidents. Don't you read the international press?
It is about finding out what happened on Sunday 31st may 2010 when israeli commandos boarded a ship in International waters 90 miles from Gaza and killed 9 passengers. Nothing else, it is Israelis and Israel firsters who are tying it to an attempt to delegitimise Israel. Not true.
Why is the UN soooooo concerned about what happened on Sunday May 31st. Why is the UN sooooooo NOT concerned about what happened in Sri Lanka last year, or the genocide in the COngo or American or British actions on Iraq or afhgan or more recently the massacre's in Krygstan. Please Chris your a fucken hypocrite just like the UN and others simply singling Israel out. Its a sick obsession to simply focus on Israel while turning a blind eye to legitimate abuses.
Israel cannot be trusted to seek the truth and publish it. It is the Israli way---denial denial denial. But it is catching up---faaaast.
unfortunately, the UNHRC is only interested in the "truth" when it applies to Israel, or maybe also the US. It has little/no interest in places like Lybia, China, Russia, Cuba, Myanmar and North Korea. Anecdotally, if you look up the UNHRC in wikipedia, you'll get a whole long list of activities of the UNHCR as it relates to israel, as small paragraph about the US, and that's it. You could blame Israel for thinking the UNHRC is, you know, a tiny bit biased?
test
If the wind comes from the east, you can't prevent it by closing your eyes. Under this behavior, Israel is surely on a loser course. It looks like it has a lot to hide. The whole Jewish people around the globehas to suffer accordingly.
Open your eyes and see that the road you are traveling on is taking you down a cliff. Yes, you might get some sand in your eyes but you will survive.
Are you by any chance advocating mass anti-Semitism and other Arab/Muslim propaganda when you say the whole Jewish world has to suffer Antonio as it sure sounds like it ,better be careful now as it,s hate speech ?
It is davka Israel that is being obsessive about refusing to participate in any objective inquiry that the international community offers... this makes us appear even more culpable that we really are...
there has been no shortage of human rights violations and violators over the last few years, yet, i am pretty sure most talkbackers can't think of many UNHCR investigations? Don't think maybe there is some legitimacy to the idea that the UNHCR is a bit obsessed with israel, while ignoring just about any other human rights violators in the world?
Like the Muslim butcher of Sudan,Omar al Bashir who intentionally ignores an international warrant of arrest on charges of crimes against humanity in Darfur ?
Stop talking you represent the Western valuees. Stop talking you are a democracy. Than you can continue your crimes just like the other in Darfur or Chechnya without having any trobles with UN.
The response to all objections from the real world community and UN is israeli bombing of UN facilities. Yesterday they shoot at a UNIFIL post in souther Lebanon, Claiming "malfunctioning machine gun turrets"
If this is indeed true, then we have learned nothing from the reaction of our allies concerning our refusal with Goldstone. Sooner or later, a one sided account will be accepted by all the world except AIPAC, and a belated inquiry will highlight our crimes without an acceptable response.
who is decent and fair and fight for human rights. Besides, Israel admitted the use of white phosphorous that is prohibited by international law. still you are not accepting the report?!
If it is not clear, I apologize. I accepted the report from the very beginning.
No doubt the panel will convene. However, Israel may not want to participate. That is no doubt a mistake. Israel has made the same mistake in the past, in the case of the Goldstone Commision, for had Israel cooperated, no matter what were the results, Israel cannot continue on the same course without defending itself or at least showing the intention as such. Lets just return to the Goldstone Report, Both Israel and Hamas were blamed. Yet the Hon.Richard Goldstone was denied access to Israel, that alone not showed only political negligence it also showed the world that Israel has become a law unto itself. Granted, the many countries that have indeed committed genocide, , cannot be branded under the same umbrella, for they are unable to defend themselves, simply because no one cares or dares to summon them. If, Israel truly cares, then, no matter the choice of the panel, maybe its time for a complete change in attitude, for Israel has its own version, its own responsibility to prove once and for all that said body is as biased as claimed. The world media will at least follow the above, whilst many will be protesting in most of the capitals of the Middle East and Europe. Everyone has his day in court. So far Israel has denied itself said occasion. Good day from sunny Swiss Alps.
there are the two israeli investigations and the investigation by the committee appointed by the un secretary general. every time israel will act in self defence, or just cause the deaths of a few radicals, there will be investigations, with no end in sight. the purpose of the investigations is to harrass israel, to undermine her morale, to terrorise her through an abuse of dubious legal mechanisms, and to try to distract and exhaust her in the process. from the point of view of strategy, of which psychological warfare is an important componenet, israel should not cooperate. shavua tov, cipora
of Qassams.
and want to engage in psychological warfare with Israel? ...lmao... WAKE UP buddy...
if you want to talk about psychological warfare, israel is a good place to start. they are the leaders of the new school of psychological warfare and political PR. You should know, considering how you say 'everytime israel acts in self defense or just causes the deaths of a few radicals' as if it's no big deal. This Gaza flotilla was not self defense, and they killed a few humanitarians. Don't think in euphemisms and speak only what you have been told.
It's time to probe the so-called UN Human Rights Council. At the same time, the UN, itself, should be probed. It's time to put an end to this nonsense.
How dare anyone hold Israel responsible for illegal actions.
That would be the response of any other nation that would have been threatened for an investigation of "alleged war crimes". But oh I forgot no other nation is held to the same standard as the Jews.
...freeing him or even ensuring that he is visited by the International Red Cross, something of which he has been deprived for all this time, against ALL humanitarian laws. The UN Human Rights Council also has said and done nothing by way of bringing to an end the eight consecutive years during which Hamas launched mortars, rockets and missiles at Israeli civilian centers, e.g. kindergartens, schools, universities, old age homes, houses of worship, hospital, with the full intent of mass murder Jews and terrorize the civilization population of Israel. Why, there, should one trust this organization which has become a tool in the hands of those who wish to demonize Israel, to de-legitimize it, to ensure that it is disarmed of its ability to defend itself...??!!
If a state of war do exist betwheen Gaza and Israel, then Gilad was taken prisoner fy hamas not abducted. It should have been anormal military operation. If there is no state of war betwheen Hamas and Israel then the siege of Gaza by Israel id completely illegal and Shalit might have been abducted in self defense by Hamas.
Gilad Shalit was making war on Gaza, like Bowe Bergdahl was making war in Afghanistan. Capture is a military risk. And Israel bomber the American school and destroyed it and several mosques during Cast Lead. Israel is no more or less moral than Hamas. You just want the freedom to kill Arabs with impunity as much as Hamas wants to kill Israelis.
...avoid having International Red Cross personnel visiting Gilad Shalit, regardless of the conditions under which he was abducted? And why has the UN Human Rights Council has said and done nothing for while the civilian population of Israel was being attacked by Hamas, but when Israel tries to defend itself the UN Human Rights Council attempts it from doing so under legalistic cover which can't stand neither an ethical nor a legal examination. The UN Human Rights Council is nothing but a tool in the hands who wish to demonize, de-legitimize Israel and prevent the nation-state of the Jewish people from defending itself. Never Again!!!
shalit was not captured on the battlefield. he was taken specifically for the purpose to hold him hostage for ransom. such is a war crime.
like being visited by the International Red Cross. And since you believe that Shalit's abduction was a normal military operation by Hamas,then don't even open your mouth if the IDF abducts Hamas terrorists.It's also a normal military operation. And if there is no state of war between Hamas and Israel,Hamas should not launch rockets against Israel. That makes you a complete shmuck
Unlike Israel, Hamas is neither a high contracting party to the Geneva Conventions nor is Gaza a UN member. is the UN has no troops in Gaza since Israel insists on maintaining its status as "Occupier." The UN has no enforcement ability in these circumstances.
... between Israel and Hamas... all-is-fair-in-love-and-war... as soon as official Israel internalizes that, the sooner will Shalit be released and come home... his life is being wasted on a war of semantics...
There are no safe bases or umpires. When you make war, sometimes they make war back. They battlefield is where the TWO sides decide. One side doesn't get to call "safe."
Not everything is fair in love and war. Capturing a soldier and putting a ransom on his head is strictly illegal according to the Geneva Conventions. If everything is fair in love and war, perhaps you could apply the same standard to Israel, right?
would you consider it a legitimate act of war if the taliban managed to capture some american soldier on us soil? i am really curious to see your answer.
Then Israel should make it clear it won't pay a ransom, and accept that Shalit will not be released until the end of hostilities. I expect no more posts from you on this matter. I
That is the nature of war. We had two more POWs taken in the last day or two. Their names haven't been released yet. They attacked us, killed over 2500. We responded by invasion. We are at war. I am at risk in my home in the US. That is the nature of war. Acts of war are acts of war. That is one reason enemy aliens are interned. That is a reason to avoid war. People get captured and killed. It is not clean and tidy. It is not a matter of legitimacy or legality.
comprehending the fact that in a war situation borders are not boundaries where the war stops. Blockading Gaza is an act of war Shalit was part of the military enforcing the blockade. Therefore he was a legitimate target by HAMAS. You might not like to hear that point, can't help that.
OMG. Israel's highest court approved the taking of palestinians to be used as bargaining chips!! it's called, euphemistically, "administrative detention." how can you be so daft?
Gaza-Israel contiguous territory... move a fence a bit, and it's uncertain what is mine and what is thine...
Yes indeed! Israel is so wonderfull and righteous (or rather self-righteous) that no one has the right to criticise the State of Israel! After all: The Israelis are the chosen People of God,-or at least so do still think some, who are in bad need of Psychiatric Assistancet! No,-whatever Israel does is righteous and fair,-Fullstop! There is no discussion to be had! Any Criticism of Israel is tantamount to Anti-Semitism! Well,-looking at this logic of thinking I am not astonished towards the actual right-wing and hawkish Israeli Governments Attitude! No one has the right to criticise Israel & the Israeli's for their actions as they are the chosen People of God and can't be held responsible for any wrongdoing, as they would never do wrong! Nice Logic,-indeed! But: Some who still think that way are in luck! The Medical Field and Profession has made tremendous advances in the field of Psychiatry,-so there might be hope for People thinking in those terms after all! In addition: Israel has forged EU and other western Passports and Officail Documents numerously enough for Assassinations and other covert actions!....so let's not even begin to speak about Laws and legitimacy's! Secondly: Israel does not recognise Hamas as an Organization,-let alone a Government or legitimate representative of the People of Gaza!(....nor does, in all fairness, Hamas recognize Israel as an Entity!) Israel signed the Geneva Conventions on 08.12.1949! I'd also invite you to have a look at the United Nations Security Council Resolution 242! Hamas hasn't signed the Geneva Conventions! One might still hope that Hamas implements these minimum requirements after all!
your question is simply non-sensical. the "legitimacy" of the location is useful only to determine if the captured party was an enemy combatant and in determining POW status. If the German in WWII had sneaked onto US soil (not analogous to Israel/Palestine) and captured to US soldiers preparing for duty then yes, they'd be prisoners of war. What you're really saying is you don't believe the palestinians have any right to fight back
He was NOT a legitimate target for Hamas because they put a RANSOM on his head -- strictly against the Geneva Conventions, a-hole from A-holeland.
Never been there -- just another thing you are wrong about. Further, the Israelis aren't as black-and-white, simply minded as you.
is the brain of a fool. There is absolutely no one disputing where he was taken. There is substantial contiguity between your thoughts and utter idiocy.
..palestinian did your country ABDUCTATED fron non-israeli teritory? how many are still sitting in your prisons? how many of them are soldiers? the huge part are civilians!!!! let them free. your gilad, ghilad whatever, is soldier and he was caught during the war....so wait, one day they might free, cause your government is doing the same....
Palestinians captured in uniform are subject to trial for crimes committed in Palestine against the occupation. This is also illegal under the geneva convention. Although I presume that will be different. Shalit is a prisoner of war captured during a legitimate operation in an attempt to lift a blockade he was a part of the military operation to enforce. It is apparent that you believe israel should be allowed to do whatever it wants, whenever it wants. Using insulting language and behaviour towards those with a temerity to fundamentally oppose your views with no structured argument to support your disagreement with a poster's comments. HAMAS is negotiating his release with the Israeli authorities, it is not a ransom demand, in a time of war it is referred to as a prisoner swap. Unless of course israel is not at war with HAMAS?
israel should never allow herself to be humiliated.
The truth is that Israel is humiliating itself by its barbaric actions.
clearly, they have a lot of lessons to teach israel about minority rights. Any input from Turkey, Russia, Malaysia are also always welcome. Were would Israel be without all these great nations ready to remind it of what human rights is all about. Thanks for this brilliant post Rona!
The rabid Arab & Islamist enemies (and their predictable supporters) of Israel can froth at their mouths and gnash their teeth all they want but unless they've got the human decency and intelligence to look at the issue fairly from all sides, they lack all credibility, look highly unprofessional, and they will continue to remain a frustrated lot with no improvement in their situation for the distant future.
Let them bring Goldstone again or similar. I didn't like their "team"... Look at the world. The millions killed all over. and Israel again and again is investigated because it is under constant attack. The videos were so telling and yet, nothing is enough? So, nothing will help. In short, Turkey attacked Israel giving free reign to its terrorists! Hamas was constantly attacking Israel. Hezbollah the same. And the anti-Semites in the Israel free press are doing the same.
these types of decisions should be always kept simple, indeed minimalist. shavua tov, cipora
Since you hold the UN in such contempt, you could just withdraw.
to remind you, the un charter is a treaty, a covenent. as long as a sovereign adheres to the treaty, that sovereign is a member of the club, it is irrelevant that certain groups of bullies have singled out israel for harrassement.
You forget that Netanyahu disavowed all prior Israeli Agreements. He routinely denies Americans freedom of travel in Israel, in violation of treaty. He treats treaties like toilet paper.
... nothing has changed In Israel's succession of reactionary governments... they have only one policy: First deny it all loud-and-clear, and then consider the alternatives... but never retract...
Israel holds the United Nations which such contempt it is hard to understand why Israel remains a member
Israel and its people's greatest national anthem, WE DENY ALL THE WAY IN THIS KINGDOM OF OURS, WE SHALL DENY UNTIL ETERNITYYYYYY, AND GOD BLESS NETANYAHUUUUU AND HIS MAAAAATES.ALLTOGETHER WE SHALL DENY IN THIS NAAAATION OF OURSSSSSS. PLEASE JUST ADD MUSIC.
...... after I have seen with my own eyes the videos .?...and don't you change the subject with me, about governments, when we talk about a vicious assault on our soldiers... who are our children that protect YOU with their lives.... read Linda at #26 about it, about the subject, although it is obvious that you won't as you don't want to see what does not fit your imagination, or your prejudice. And that has nothing to do with Israel governments but with reality on the flotilla......
altho' the killing on the flotilla was koshered by this government after the event, and done according to its norms...what IS relevant is that it was our forces that killed nine...not theirs, nor were they fore-armed for combat... kitchen-knives and legs of chairs was their incidental armament...
Why doesn't Haretz conduct an interview with Ehud Barak about the Mossad's involvement in the killing of Rafik Harir? I am sure Barak would be able to reveal a lot about this operation in detail.
Not all bad things that happen in the world are done by Mossad
Mossad no longer has the technical ability to assassinate people abroad without being found out. Just ask athe Israel arested in Warsaw travelling on a Polish passport about to be extraditted to Germany for forging a German passport.
being found out, maybe. there being consequences is probably another matter
a: we are deaf & blind, prepared to pit ourselves against the whole world. b: Lieberman is again in ascendancy, dragging Bibi behind him.
They deserve no cooperation as I am certain they have already blamed Israel..and I agree,cooperating only gives legitimacy to the joke of an organization.
hopefully more will be identified and arrested; your two friendly countries are not enough; the world will make the decision
IDF IS THE GUARDIAN OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL. LONG AND ETERNAL LIFE TO THE JEWISH STATE.
within the '67 borders, yes
Israel is right. The UN seems to have a obsession with Israel, motivated by the lopsided Islamic numbers in the General Assembly - all the while ignoring human rights violations around the world, not least of which, occur in Hamas-controlled Gaza.
This council is not lopsided with Islamic numbers. The only support Israel gets on this council is from the US. Were it not for the US veto, the 224 binding resolutions against Israel would be much higher. Why bother to belong to an organization when you ignore all the rules? Do us all a favor and quit the UN. Then you won't have to complain about its bias anymore.
the UN, the world and all of you supported and encouraged by haaretz has found israel and the jewish nation, people and state guilty. why bother?
Do you think the world needs Haaretz and the UN to understand what's going on ? Stop playing the victim for once and you'll see the light.
It's not an obsession with Israel. It's an obsession with member-states that board the vessels of other member states in international waters and kill nine of the passengers. You could be Mexico. You'd still be in trouble.
this is not an admission of guilt. this is a statement that israel is not willing to set a predecent of having to be subject to "impartial" scrutiny everytime it burps, farts or scratches its head. Any fair minded observer of those videos can see that the inquiry is unnecessary. And so what if there are OTHER video clips that were not released? Who cares? the issue was that particular turkish ship, and thus far NO ONE has come forth with any video evidence that suggests the idf commandos were shooting like lunatics (and if such a tape did exist - or cell phone images - it would surely have surfaced by now) -- the fact that only 9 "activists" were killed (as opposed to larger numbers, which would support a theory of indiscriminate killings), and the fact that trained IDF soldiers were INJURED when they were armed with weapons (and so, presumably could have easily avoided injury with knee-jerk shooting) is more evidence of restraint and self-defense. Israel is not admitting guilt. It is demonstrating its conviction as a sovereign nation to conduct appropriate military maneuvers without being called into the principal's office every time it exercises this right. And for all of you yapping about "international law" and "international waters" and "illegal" blockades - I have yet to see one shred of evidence or support grounded in ACTUAL international law. No citations, no nothing (as per the usual from most of you). A "violation of International Law" has become a synonym for "someone died and that feels kind of not okay with me!" But no! There are actual laws that distinguish between intent and consider context. The U.N. IS obsessed with Israel, and so loses much credibility to begin with. Israel conducted an investigation, there were international observers, enough is enough! move on, move on.....everyone knows the flotilla is a dead issue and this incessant and truly "obsessive" fanning of the flames is nothing more but grasping at straws.
truth submitted by the Israeli's. The fact that no one has come forth with other video is because it was confiscated along with cell phones, making it impossible to counteract the propaganda from the IDF. If there was a transparent international inquiry, the determination could be made as to whether this raid was legal or not. The fact that Israel refuses to allow this leads reasonable people to conclude that don't even believe what they did was right. The UN is not obsessed with Israel, just tired of having its resolutions ignored by a rogue state claiming to be a democracy.
Do you really believe that?
here is another clip that was released showing the execution in cold blood of a "peace activist" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdA6jJ8dOZQ --so if the idf was attacked as claimed, does it have the right to murder in reprisal after the fact? is that something that you would include to be "self defense"?
This is the Goldstone Response from Israel. "Israel is pure as driven snow. All her warriors are Galahad. And there is no aroma to IDF feces. The entire world is antisemitic and hates Israel." What I want to know is why Israel is keeping its own investigation secret from its own people. What are Bibi and Barak hiding? There would be no call for an outside investigation if Israel's was open, transparent and credible. A secret investigation where the investigators cannot ask questions of the participants is not transparent, nor is it credible. Nixon claimed he was not a crook when he was obstructing justice and covering up. What is Bibi covering up?
Israel is bloodthirsty and dishonest.
STOP YOUR LIES, IRAN.
Turkey will have too admit it carried out an "act of war" against the State of Israel, compensate the IDF soldiers wounded & pay Israel for the cost of the operation. Remember this. The country with the n u k l ear weapons always wins. Where did Erdogan go? He's been awful quiet lately. Is he hiding in a bunker with Nasrallah?
What a genious!!!!! You figured it all out, no?
When a thief breaks in the middle of the night in my house and kills me, who has to prove one's innocence? ME?
Darfur? Checnia? Iran? Afganistan? Iraq? Sri-Lanka? East Timor? Hama (syria) Palestians killing thousands of Palestianians? China (3M civilians killed in Tibet)?
MORE: THE DESTRUCTION OF THE COUNTRY KURDISTAN AND KILLING OF MILLIONS OF KURDISTANIS, RIGHT NOW BY SYRIANS, TURKISH AND IRANIAN ARMIES.THERE LOTS OF MORE TO THE LIST, BUT THEY ONLY LOVE ISRAEL.
i don't know that there are not such committees, but to the extent there are not, i'd say it's because we expect more from democracies, especially those that claim to be part of the West.
Don't confuse your oppression of the palestinians, which could be compared the way you are doing it, and the attacking of an internationnal diplomatic mission. None of the countries you cited would have attacked an internationnal diplomatic convoy that contained 700 unarmed people from 40 different countries, even if there was proof a small group of unarmed terrorist had infiltrated the mission.
then Israel should leave the land it has occupied since 1948 and return it to the people who had been living there for centuries -- the Palestinians.
IT NEVER EXISTS, A PEOPLE AND COUNTRY CALLED PALESTINE LIVING IN THE JEWISH LAND..ALL FORCED AND FABRICATED.
Your ignorance is of the same size of your hate
Wow. All those Palestinians were there for centuries? Even the ones who only lived there from 1946-48 and are still considered, "Palestinians"?
Get yourself a proper Middle East education ! Not only you have no clue of how a palestinian looks like but also deny the sole existence of a people called "palestinians". I suggest you read Edward Said or other palestinian intellectuals (need a list ?). They'll teach you a few things about the ancestrial palestinian presence on that land. Denial is a crime, didn't you know ? How's life in San Diego ?
One day you'll say thank you. Here's a shorlist of authors and medias about Palestine and the Palestinians : Edward Said, Rashid Khalidi, Nusseibeih, hundreds of articles from "Al Filastin" and "Al Munadi" in the early 19's, books from the Jerusalem private schools will help you understand. Are you ready to learn more or you'd rather stay in your own ignorance ? you're welcome SDHD. Anytime i can help.
...not to mention Tom Seguev, Amira Hass and thousands of israelis and jews all over the world that have the courage to stand up through articles and-or demonstrations against Israel's disgraceful policy. Have a nice reading + thinking SDHD. In the meantime you make me laugh...palestinians do have humor you know ?
There would be no worries. Instead, evidence has been confiscated and released only in manipulated quantities and victims have been slandered in writing by the State without any real evidence or justification. Independent probes, even those agreed to by Israel, are off the bargaining table. Why the worry? Obviously it's guilt and a cover up. I question the dignity of those who would defend the indefensible.
That seems to be all Israel is good at. There needs to be some accountability. If UN does not investigate what should people do, send in assasination teams?
As expected Israel is behaving like a petulant naughty child caught misbehaving. Who cares if Israel cooperates? Anything Israel said would be lies anyway.
...are the anti-these of israel, no surprises here.
Israel is a rogue state which doesn't feel that has any kind of responsibility towards the international community, so the international community should just treat it as such, place the appropriate sanctions and isolate it.
... after the UNHRC "investigation" is complete. It is quite likely Turkey will use the ship as a Pallywood set and make videos of the IHH greeting the IDF with smiles, flowers and coffee, and suddenly the IDF opens fire for no reason.
The video Israel released being 'staged' to justify the murder of 8 Turks and 1 American. Imagine if 9 Israelis were shot dead on a ship heading to Turkey to give aid to the PKK? Israel would be firing nukes at Ankara
... that the same culture could produce both a Chris Linthwaite and a Winston Churchill.
Yes very diverse country is the United Kingdom with room for diverse opinions and points of view. The UK also has the confidence to tolerate these points of view as well. I have noticed that there are israelis and israel firsters in the United states and Israel itself who don't like the idea of freedom of speech and expression when it comes to having opinions divergent from their own. Churchill was repeatedly kicked out of government for holding radical views such as Hitler wasn't a very nice person. sad really, but the lack of video and pictures from the turkish flotilla and the fact israel is refusing to co-operate with a UN investigation into the case, says to me Israel has something to hide. In that case, the video released supporting Israel's version of events must be viewed as suspect. If you don't like me coming to that conclusion fair enough. But to compare me with some balding dead fat bloke is unfair.
The UN that is.
Certainly seems so.
when one UN member kills citizens of another UN member in international territory, waters or otherwise, there needs to be an investigation. israel is not the first country to be investigated for this and won't be the last. if they are so sure of their innocence, then let the committee gain access to the commandos involved. israel's refusal to give the committee access to anyone or anything is an admission of guilt.
its only hearsay and one cannot conclude guilt without a reason
It's a demonstration against an international body which has shown the most severe bias against Israel.
Just ALL the videos and photos. We will see the truth from those. . .
and poor bernie madoff was the victim of an orchestrated campaign of anti-semitism
How about Albert Dreyfus?
Yes, an excellent example of a xenophobic state framing an "outsider" for the actions of one of it's own. Fortunately an independent inquiry showed the charges against Dreyfus were false, shook France to it's core, and ultimately made it a better place. So I agree with you, Israel can only profit from allowing the UNHRC to investigate. The more data available, the better.
He was found not guilty on appeal, and the french government has publically acknowledged that the trial was a disgusting event that shouldn't have happened. saying that having to go back a century to find a retort just goes to show how things have improved for the Jewish people in Europe.
So will the UN
He only heard a limited part of what happened, and a very biased part at that.
refused to cooperate. It is a good way to avoid justice. Refuse to take part in an investigation and then claim bias because your side wasn't heard. It fools only a few.
Hmmm, I wonder which "few" would be "foolish" enough to be "fooled" by such arguments? Oh, hello Israel!!
Its just like Iran not cooperating with the international atomic energy agency! Iran has something to hide. Israel has something to hide. Its ironic to see Israel traveling in the footsteps of Iran... Israel is afraid to be investigated by the UN. The innocent has nothing to lose. Only the guilty have real reasons to evade an investigation. Refusing to cooperate, Israel is indirectly admitting guilt. Just like Iran!
Not cooperating with someone who has it out for you is hardly an admission of guilt. When will the HRC admit that it is biased against Israel?
The way the investigation was framed assumes Israel's guilt before any investigation has taken place. The UN can go to hell.
In that case why does Israel remain a member of the UN.
Well EU citizen. Iran is NPT member and the IEAE inspectors have access to Iran. There are many IEAE reports about their assesments in Iran. You may believe that the cooperation not proves Iran is innocent, but not that Iran is proved to be guilty by non cooperation.
...is the surrendering of the Mavi Marmara. Hopefully it will some day become a floating museum commemorating the liberation of Gaza.
What a dilemma!! Ultimately, the decision Israel makes will be based upon "damage limitation". If Israel genuinely believes in it's "innocence" then it should be doing everything in its power to assist and provide ALL information it has, (which includes access to ALL videos) and allow questioning of ALL potential witnesses (including the IDF soldiers). If not, Israel will be found guilty by virtue of it's obscurity. But as we know, Israel may prefer that, than the opinion and damage caused by the facts being established and published to the world. Will it be a case of "Lest they know"?
I am looking forward to see ALL video and images so that we can see the truth. Not an edited version. If Israel has nothing to hide, they will release all evidence. Has Israel got anything to hide?
Using the royal "we" must denote you have delusions of grandeur Moshe. Are you a descendant of some mythical Judean king?
UN is bent on accusing Israel always taking side with her enemies. This "investigation" is another one of those. Therefore Israel should not cooperate.
i am so sick of you idiots claiming that the un is a ~*~seekrit mooslim anti-semetic group~*~. always sides with israel's enemies? are you serious? this is the same group whose members routinely invade random middle eastern countries, imposed sanctions on iran and refuse to allow any muslim nation to develop nukes (despite the fact that nearly all christian countries have them)? bull. you apologists just can't stand seeing israel being held accountable for any of its mistakes.
Maybe that is what you need to ask.
You only use UN when it fits you. hypocrites!
You know of what I speak. The sham that was destined for failure from the moment they rejected a just, international investigation into Israel's act of piracy that was committed on the high seas. Israel absolutely LOVES covering up its war crimes and Human rights violations. And we have traitors to the United States of America in the racist organization known as AIPAC. They absolutely love defending Israeli war crimes and crimes against Humanity. In fact, I'd say that at least 95% of AIPAC members are more Israeli at heart than Americans. As such, they are the domestic enemy that I've sworn an oath to defend this country from.
one reason for such behavior of UN is that Israel is the wrongdoer, not it's enemies.
This will surprise nobody. During the 2006 war, Israeli forces bombed and killed four UN officers in an observation post in Lebanon. Israel refused to cooperate with that investigation as well. Actually, this sort of behavior is welcomed by Israels enemies and critics. It is what makes Israel Israel.
... Hezbollah's recent attack and disarming of its own UNIFIL forces in S. Lebanon. The UN's selectivity of what it investigates and what it doesn't is more of a problem for the world that Israel's actions.
you are an armchair general nice and safe in the USA. you are also a bigot loved and supported by this left wing rag.
as Maj. Hess-von Kruedener mentioned in his email to the CTV few days before he died with three others soldiers during IDF bombing of Hezbollah positions around the UN post. "......We've got Hezbollah fighters running around in our positions, taking our positions here and then using us for shields and then engaging the (Israeli Defence Forces)," he said. Distortion of the facts and half truths is what makes Natallie ....Natallie Liar.
The problem he had to bury his finding deep inside his report to give such report a chance to get through the Human Right Arab-biased commission.
The practice by Israel of targeting UN members goes way back. Yitzhak Shamir (Icchak Jeziernicky) former Israeli Prime Minister and hard-line Likud member, is said to have given the order to the Jewish terrorist group, Stern Gang, to assassinate Count Folke Bernadotte UN representative in Israel 1940s. (Various Palestine/Israel history sources)
An enemy or a critic? Israels should be written Israel's Ms. Durson.
The UN investigation would uncover the facts. Israel has put forward Daniels theory as an excuse for the killings, but refused all cooperation with the UN investigation. Israel was hiding the facts and offering spin in their place.
Any link to prove your claim about Israeli refusal to cooperate with the UN investigation of the 26.07.2006 bombing of UN post?
It is not my theory what are you talking about? You should rather call it a Maj. Hess-von Kruedener theory who advanced it in his mail to CTV.Why that need to lie when you know that I just pasted his testimony to tell people that you tried to hide the reason of IDF bombing - Hezbollah use of the UN post as a human shield?
An apology and a symbolic compensation will probably solve the problem. There are many other things to do. I hope that Israel does not spend too much time. Turkey does not want to play a power game with Israel in the region but Israel should understand that status quo is unsustainable in the region.
How do you get away with murder with a simple apology? A horrendous crime was committerd. Israel missed the window for putting this behind with less cost. Now most Turks, conservaitve or not, are angry and demand justice. Turkish blood seems to be cheap.
But I am the wrong person to get angry with. ı said "symbolic compensation" coz any compensation does not bring the people back. So they are naturally symbolic. No, turkish blood is not cheap at all, it is very precious and it causes trouble. and Yes I share the same opinion about the justice, perpetrators must be revealed. But, After apology and compensation a chance may be given to Israeli probe.
Burak, when Israel apologises (if at all) it won't be for some time yet. However, even if we got one today, it would probably be too late. The longer Israel leaves it, only further reduces it's impact, not least it's sincerity... At this late stage, we know that Israel will only apologise if "forced" to do so... An insincere apology, is no apology at all...
Israel should be asked to leve the UN
They failed. Maybe the UN should leave the planet.
Israel is right to resisit a kangaroo court. To put a Malaysian in the team is an insult as Malaysia does not recognise Israel. The world knows the Flotilla was given alternatives of Israel or Egypt to land and refused so was bent on breaking the blockade. The videos show the rest. Israel was stupid not to be prepared but does not need to make an apology.
the UN should cease to exist as currently constituted.
Soudan because of the Darfur. Iran because of the feroce repression going on. North Korea because of the brutality of the regime and the weapon proliferation. Turkey because of the Kurd, Greek and Armenian ethnic cleansing and genocides. Syria because of the terrorist regime. Lebanon because it is not even a country. All in all, all the Arab countries because they refuse to recognize Israel as the Jewish state with Jerusalem as its capital.
You are right, the US vetoes in Israel's favour should be abolished; they make a mockery of the UN.
Turkey has been attacked snce the dawn of man. To date no one has managed to take over Turkey. NOt even, the ENGLISH, FRENCH,THE AUSTRALIANS, THE KURDS, THE ARMENIANS, THE GREEKS, THE ARABS etc. These groups have paid the price, which you call genocide. They are resting peacefully in their graves. Dont disturb please.
What about Iran that deny the exisence of Israel and claims for its destruction?