Israel seeks Obama backing on Gaza probe

"Why is IDF incumbent to take more risks than Hamas?" (Eli) Because, dummy, Israel is not a terrorist organization. Because it cannot behave like Hamas and, at the same time, demand to be treated as a normal civilized country.

"The attempt to rule over one and a half million Arabs against their will may bring about a demoralization which will disgrace our finest dreams of spiritual and national renewal. Not only will the effort to annex the territories not provide security; it will weaken the capacity to protect ourselves from our neighbors' hostility and the opposition of the nations." From an Open Letter to then-PM Begin, 1980, by Professor Jacob Talmon (1916-1980), Prof of Modern History at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. www.fmep.org/analysis/analysis/a-prophetic-message-from-the-past Begin didn't bother to respond to Talmon's Letter. He and his Defense minister Sharon were too busy planning the invasion of Lebanon, 1982. The one whose only result was Arafat's exile to Tunis, and the rise of Hezbollah. In 1980, our leaders were still denying the very existence of a Palestinian people, and Hamas was still an obscure little welfare organisation, whose name no one had heard yet. Not until the first Palestinian uprising, seven years later.

"The Israeli message is that the Goldstone report threatens those countries because it makes the war on terror very difficult..." This is just another excuse from the morally bankrupt Israeli leaders. After reading the entire UN Gaza report I know why the leaders of Israel are scurrying around saying to themselves "Oh my, what do we do now". After all, what could they say in defense of bombing of civilian neighborhoods, the use of flechette shells (for all you uninformed, a flechette shell is filled with thousands of darts which are ejected from the shell during flight, tearing up everything in their path) and white phosphorus against civilian targets, the bombing of mosques and schools, the blocking of rescue parties from reaching the wounded, the killing of fleeing civilians carrying white flags, the use of human shields.

Notwithstanding the ravings of "Doctor" Brnd, the possibility of Pres. Obama refusing to use the veto exists - Netanyahoo has consistently poked his finger in Pres. Obama's eye and some point, enough will be enough. Imagine Israeli leaders and IDF generals in the dock in the ICC!!

u mean Goldstone was after a job at the UN where holding Israel accountable to its crimes - from collective punishment of Palestinians's to uprooting trees, or demolishing home to killing 1400 Palestinians in Gaza - is vetoed time after time?

If anybody in the US is going to the Hague it will be bush, cheney and the rest of the neocons who started all the said wars you mentioned. I'm sure obama will be all for that.

Perhaps you should have read past page fifteen and gotten down to Chapter X where it fully explains how the Israeli government repeatedly lied? There is nothing anywhere in the report that holds Israel to a "higher standard" than anyone else on the planet, including Hamas. Israelis appear to be upset because they are being held to the *same* standard as everyone else.

Did the US administration call into question the legitimacy or fairness of the enquiries into Bosnia or Ruwanda? Has Goldstone developed a reputation for bias in his capacity as a stellar judge? Why, if Israel has clear evidence that the charges against her were false, did she refuse to participate and bring forth her proof. Israel has been found guilty of war crimes. This is not the first time and the evidence is there for those who will seek it out. Let's hope the US does not cave in to Israel's whitewash campaign of propaganda. No change will occur in the ME as long as Israel and her rubber stamp, the US, face the horrible facts. Israel simply cannot be allowed to get away with murder any longer. We expect more integrity from Obama.

I think voting in the security council will test the veto weilding powers. Particulary US vote needs to be watched. Politics will come into play, but if Americans make it clear to Obama that they are against the morally reprehensible acts committed in this conflict, then its makes it very diffcult for Obama to veto the resolution. So Americans should start a campaign that their president use the veto power responsibly.

...name a recent *real, humans rights groups documented war crime* that has the kind of irrefutable and blatant documentation that the ones the Goldstone Report put out about Hamas and Israel, name it. One caveat though. The United States does not hold territory in belligerent occupation under the laws of war and internationally agreed upon human rights law and then attack them like fish in a barrel. Big difference.

Since the bulk of years in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan were on Bush's watch, your plan works out well for Obama and is fine with me since the US Military is doing an ongoing inquiry. We try our war criminals or didn't you ever hear of Abu Ghraib or any of the other trials that have happened? The only difference is that they might go up the chain of command to the Cheneys and Rummys. Obama's been protecting Cheney on torture; maybe he shouldn't? And what is this "True" stuff? Does that mean you're Cherokee or just one of those redneck bigots that hate black people and never even had a relative serve in the US military. Your argument is an insult to any American who ever wore the uniform and avoided the impulse to murder a civilian.

why the endless UNHRC obsession with Israel? Do you think a brief that wanted to investigate Israel only by people who had prejudged the outcome may indicate a less than totally impartial investigation?

Looks like somebody forgot to brief Bibi. The Global War on Terror (GWOT) is over. There is a war in Afghanistan and another in Iraq, but the opposition is people, not specific tactics or weapons. The US is also no longer at war against left flanking or helicopter transportation, either. The operation in Iraq is in the final phase of a counterinsurgency effort. The war in Afghanistan is against al Qaida and some elements of the Taliban and is turning into a counterinsurgency operation (far too slowly). Wars on terrorism create terrorists, it turns out.

You gotta be kidding. I really hope and expect that the US Gov't isn't so stupid as to defend behavior of another country's army. These are the same 'troopers' who abuse and humiliate Palestinians!

Hilarious!!! After repeatedly slapping Obama's administration in the face and refusing to stop the illegal settlements in the Palestinian WB Israel is now looking for America to help it weasel out of the bed it has made. Israel is like an obnoxious child who is now running to hide behind its mother's skirt. Israel has some gall looking for American protectionism, I hope Obama lets the chips fall as they may.

The terrorists are trying to win a propaganda war: anything Israel does wrong, they will strike a point. Civilians have human rights: in fighting terrorists, you cannot use their methods, the killing of civilians, and win. You must show more compassion to civilians: let the terrorists look bad when they kill innocent civilians and use human shields. We have been trying to get them condemned for doing this in Lebanon and for striking the twin towers in NY. We are still fighting terrorists; the USA army in Afghanistan looks like it is finally realizing this, and this year it has been more careful not to kill civilians and less were killed this year than less. I think the response you will get is that civilians have human rights, a lesson that has taken too long to be learned.

Then BHO will also have to agree to a war crimes inquiry as to the thousands of innocent civilians being massacred in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. The drones wreaking the genocide are not even controlled by the front line soldiers but by joystick riders in Colorado under the command of the USAF and NATO. Fair is fair, isn't it. Innocent "non-combatants" used as human shields purposely targeted by the NATO/US command. The American Generals in charge not only admitted it, but admit the attacks will continue. So, justice be served. Send Goldstone in for his typically "unbiased" expose so he can "just follow orders." Are you ready for the Hague BHO?

Hi all especially johnboy as he's got a good head on his shoulders why is it incumbent upon israel to maintain a higher standard of care for gazans than Hamas? Goldstone on page 15 sites an incident where off fire for artillery shells at area where rockets are being launched from ... Civilians are nearby some 1300. Report slams israelsaying it should have gone with infrantry why, legally, is idf incumbent to take additional risk rather than Hamas incumbent to ensure safety of it's civilian and not fire mortar shells from civillian areas?

Israel can simply forget any hope that this report WON'T be considered by the UN Security Council. There is no way that any of the permanent members of the UNSC will block THAT. However, it is still likely that the Israelis can convince the US to veto any resolution referring this report to the ICC. Likely, but not "a given". I'll point out that previously the US has justified an automatic veto under the "Negroponte Doctrine". That doctrine does NOT apply here, because Goldstone has (quite properly) apportioned blame to both Israel and Hamas.

That Selfserving argument Will Never Fly. If the Security Council concludes that criminal prosecution is required then the US should not again veto such action. Israel will not improve unless it knows it will be held responsible for its actions.

For far too many years, Israel has been able to engage in atrocious conduct with impunity, always shielded by the US Security Council veto. Hopefully, that veto will stay in our pocket this time. It is time that Israel be treated like every other country in the world, subject to scrutiny and international sanction. Israel's denials are pathetic. Everyone who has looked into Cast Lead has come to the same conclusions - except for the IDF, which has to even claim that some of its own soldiers are lying. Many of the atrocities were caught on videotape. There can be no doubt that Israel is guilty of war crimes. IDF traveling abroad should be prosecuted and they should fear to travel. That is the fate of war criminals and so it should be. Israelis have been loudly talking about how little they need the US and that we have no right to influence them. Their tune seems to be changing now that they need US help. That help should not be forthcoming

justice needs to be done and seen to be done.you wrote in today's piece in the new york times that it would be "hypocrisy" to not prosecute israeli officers for cast lead. i do not agree with you but let us say that you are right.why single us out when the west is involved in mass killings of civilians in afghanistan.the numbers involved begs the question why us and not the west in afghanistan?or indeed in iraq. you have not addressed this obvious question in your new york times piece today.i hope you will make your position more clear in the near future. a haaretz reader

What can he do?,Take them to court?,and then take Haniye to court?,and then take the Chinese to court?,and who should take him to court?. Anyway,health care is more important,and that is not going well.

It's interesting to see that one of the first responses to articles like these is: "Look at those guys, they are worse than us". Does that make the IDF actions early this year better in any way? No, that's right, not in one single way. Agree to investigate, that's the only reasonable alternative, as the other alternative for Israel is to distance itself (even more) from (at least formerly) friendly countries.

Natenyahu is trying so hard to deflect attention off Israel's war crimes- highlighting that other countries have blood on their hands doesn't wash away the blood on yours- fool!

Me too. I think there is no more Mr. Nice Guy.

Hope Israel has one friend in the whole world. I can say none. Obama used to be a law professor and I am sure he will never slide judge Goldstone's report under the carpet.

is no more surprises. I think that is exactly what he wants.

I'm really anxious to hear from Obama on this.

nato killed 528 civilians bombing serbia.goldstone never visited the nato bombers.goldstone uses the word hypocrisy as indeed he should.

When Bibi asks for Obama's support to get the UN to ignore the Goldstone report, he should do the same thing as Bibi did when Obama asked for Bibi's help with settlements - ie "to take a flying leap". What goes around comes around.

is it obama or olmert. please read the figures on civilian deaths in afghanistan.

why single out israel? read other posts for details of the sins of others.sins that dwarf ours.

Wouldn't it been nice to have a friend in the White House right now?

Dan, have any of those countries mentioned got numerous security council resolutions that they are activley breaking outstanding ??

this according to the associated press.the number is 1700.this includes civilians and insurgents.this figure is somewhat low.the war had not yet intensified.

"Gaza's population faces severe health problems due to the decline in drinking- water quality, such as the so-called "blue baby syndrome" in which babies' blood is damaged by exposure to nitrate compounds in waste. The babies become cyanotic, which causes their skin to take on a blue tinge, and to suffer from respiratory and intestinal problems."

the organisation stated that up to january 2002 4200-4500 afghan civilians were killed by american aerial bombings.wikipedia.

The so-called War on terror has little to do with terror and much with safe-guarding the USA oil supplies. As for terrorists: images of dead Gazan babies swell the ranks of terrorists and consequently create more problems for Western countries as well as Israel, than any UN report. If Obama were to sweep the Goldstone report under the carpet it would show the USA again siding with the killers of those babies and increase the ranks of terrorists.

The Hague welcomes you Israel.

Hmm. Gee, wonder if that'll work. Bibi's annoyed Obama and the US government already over settlements. Now he's going to accuse them of war crimes. That should make them more friendly! Does it occur to anyone in the Bibi government that it might be time for being nice and helpful, time for a charm offensive, rather than just being offensive? The days when Israel could order the US around may be over.

I think it is wrong to assume that everyone who criticizes isreal is ignorant and they come from mars. I agree with you that any civilians casualities in any conflict needs to be investigated, but that doesnt mean israel should be absolved of its responsibilities in this conflict. I dont think Israel should be given a right to kill civilians just because others have done it. That justification holds very thin.

Well its not china that brags that it has the most "the most moral army in the world", its Israel. Its not Sudan that brags "its the most moral army in the world".Its not Russia that does not state they are " the most moral army in the world" Its not america that states to the world that it has "" the most moral army in the world" or Iran or any other country. Israel tells the world it does. So let the chips lay they will and lets see if Israel is just spouting lies or telling the truth. Lets see how the Hague exposes the fantasy of these so called '' mortal army''

The Israeli message is that the Goldstone report threatens those countries because it makes the war on terror very difficult.

...(okay, maybe a little exaggeration:), Bibi is showing quite a bit of "chutzpah" indeed. Again, we are back at the "little problem" with Israels political establishment: They like a lot to take, but they don't like very much to give..... ....on the long term, I'm afraid that is not a very successful strategy to make friends in this world.

It is all bias from the evil UN? Let's do some math. The Hamas rockets killed 6 people over a period of 8 years. Israel then finds it proportional to kill 1400 people in 3 weeks, of whom about 1000 were women and kids, to retaliate. There was a time that Israelis came with the rule: an eye for eye. Now it is 1 eye per 1.5 year to 225 eyes per 3 weeks (first group: harsh invaders and occupiers / siegers who keep on stealing land. Second group: dispossessed,oppressed people who offer the resistance of the weak). As always math helps to give issues some proportions.

Do you live on Mars or pretend to be ignorant? Here are some numbers for you: 3 million Tibetans killed by China Close to a million killed in Darfur by Sudan 300,000 Chechen civilians killed by Russia 100,000 civilian opposition killed by Iranian Islamic regime since it came to power 200,000-500000 civilians killed by US and allies in Iraq 100,000 civilians killed by US and allies in Afghanistan 11,000 civilians killed by NATO in Yugoslavia (in a single week!) Number of UN investigations? Guess Less than 1000 civilians allegedly killed in Gaza (the real number is around 500). Number of UN investigations? 3 Based on the statistic above, who do you think should the UN investigate first? Why only Israel is being investigated? Does this make sense in light of the above facts? Investigate all other nations according to severity of crimes, use the same criteria and flawed methodology and then I am ok with investigating Israel.

and not the wanna-be-version of their political lederships, consequences will have to be taken on for deeds done. That is called accountability, that even the US cannot hinder any more. The israeli simply made the misunderstanding to negate the international developpement of justice, that refuses to consider such things as internal politics any more.

. . . until justice runs down like water, and righteousness like a mighty stream."--Dr. Martin Luther King, Montgomery, AL, Dec. 1955.

Obama gained the support of Congress (which pays his bills) to return to the Anti-Israel UN Human Rights Commission with a promise that he was doing so "to reform it". If he does the opposite, failing to dump the bigoted report, he will find an enraged Congress awaiting him with articles of impeachment. No president in US history has, less than a year into the job, attracted fury and distrust of the American people like Obama has. His popularity is crumpling. He's already feeling massive heat from Congress over his idiotic "freeze" demand in territory everybody knows will stay with Israel. And he remains under a '94 Congressional directive to accept united Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Any attempt by Obama to blackmail Israel by failing to veto the UNHRC plans in the Security Council will doom his Presidency to one skirmish after another with a hostile Congress. No accomplishments with the economy = no re-election. Battling Israel AND the Taliban? Who would his allies be?

Not only could Israel make the whole controversy go away by doing its own CREDIBLE public investigation, but the Israeli has been does nothing but foment discord against the current American government through lies and leaks. Does some scenario exist where it is in the US interest to help Israel cover up? Maybe. But it is hard to imagine.

The difference between the US war on terror and the Israeli occupation is that when US soldiers commit crimes they tried and punished, while in Israel those who commit crimes are seldom even charged, and even when video evidence proves their guilt, those convicted are given simply a slap on the wrist. I find it rather insulting that Israel is trying to compare its reckless and disproportionate use of force against innocent civilians with the international coalition's war on terror when they have nothing in common.

From over here. paragraph #9 sounds weird. The PM's office has decided that Peres (who more than a few have been dumping on as a fool and harmful to Israel's interests) will be the point man for dealing with the world, while both the nation's prime minister and secretary of state will keep mum publicly, limiting themselves to "quiet diplomacy." Seems a bit topsy-turvy, but then I admit to only knowing what I read in the newspapers.

This report does not bode well for Israel at all... The talkbacks in the page will be vindications of the anti-Israeli crowd... They will praise this report and say how it proves that Israel is a harsh Regime hell bent on the oppression of Arabs... But the fact of the Matter is that, Israel is a young contry formed from a people displaced for countless generations that the exact origin of thier people come into question. Whose poeople suffered one of the worlds worst massacres, and then in the wake of this destruction are born anew and given thier ancient home. The Jewish people never wished to be occupiers of anyones home, they mearly want to live in peace and harmony with thier neighbours. But if thier neighbours become hostile then one must understand that Israel at 61 is still young and adolescent, and will react as such. Let Israel live and peace and prosperity will beget for eternity.

The US and the other free countries fighting terrorists should support Israel's stance against Goldstone and the UN Human Rights Commission more from protecting their own interests rather then assisting Israel. It should be clear to everyone that if these charges are not dug out from their rotten roots they will in the future be used against them. The heavy civilian casualties in the US air attack, called in by the German army, in Afghanistan would be just the material that would make terrorists and Goldstone dance with joy. That Goldstone is Jewish is no defense for his anti-Israeli position. There have always been Jews who would sell their souls for personal benefit. Now that Goldstone has established himself as being capable of producing these terrible reports he should be able to find a permanent position with the UN.

Since all of Israel knows the IDF did nothing wrong, why be frightened of a trial? And since Hamas was named as well, put them on trial also. Let the politicians and military chiefs spend their last days isolated in the territory of Israel. But . . . .. . . of course Obama will not allow any prosecution to go forward. He has caved once to Israel on the settlements, and will do so again.

a tribe known as hebrews invaded Philistine about 3500 yrs ago and took over the camel-stop between Ur (Babalon and Asyria) and Egypt from the Canaanites...they were said to be a mix of Hitites (black africans) and Amourites(proto greeks)....the hebrews became famous as story tellers to the passing caravans and for their halucinagenic honey and locast...although they never conquered what is now gaza (philistinian) nor haifa (phonician) they claimed it all from tigres to euphated (although they never traveled and none had seen it) and as far as ethiopia to the south where solomons nines where supposed to be....although the hebrews never had what one could call a nation or country (12 waring tribes)they told great stories about themselves and placed them selves at the center of the most popular myths of the time...the jews were the hebrews who came back from the bablon captivity but increased there numbers by bonding with the Edomites

about that permanentbuilding freeze in the illegally occupied palestine terrirtories?

If Israel has nothing to hide then why it did not cooperate with UN investigation and why it would'nt intigate a independent investigation as per the Goldstone's report. No matter what these so called politicians or IDF say, it is pretty clear war crimes have been committed and Israel does not want to own up to them. So rightfully these issues needs to be referred to ICJ and those leaders and IDF officers who comitted these crimes need to brought to justice.

This will determine just who Obama is, a man, or a lackey. And with it goes the United States.

...just as he suports the investigaions against the CIA. This will , he believes, give him leverage against Israel.

Where is Yaalon and the rest of the right wing going to tell obama that they call the shots

Israel has spent the last 9 months trying to discredit, humiliate, and destroy Obama. Now it wants a favor. . .

I agree with the Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman, Yigal Palmor, who said Israel "would take action to protect its soldiers and commanders from prosecution abroad". I guess I don't understand why any country that defends itself against terrorists--(which is the real issue here)--that any international commitee must look into the matter. Something happened between "all is fair in love and war" and the process of "today". Now, when a country wants to defend itself from terror, it must follow protocol before, during, and after or risk international consequences. (?) Meanwhile, as Palmor so elequently stated the world is subjected to "the propaganda of the terrorists". (And their propaganda went worldwide in a matter of days!) I trust they are being investigated, as well... Just as I trust that the US President will wish us "Shana Tova" soon.

It's just a facade to cover the real objective, to steal oil and to prop up Arab dictators that will submit to America's will. Bin Laden never admitted to the 9/11 attacks, it's all nonsense, after he died in 2001, the CIA attempted to fool the world with constant audio tapes and gritty videos of fake actors "admitting" to the atrocities on 9/11. Ariel Sharon wanted to paint the Palestinians as the aggressors in his "War on terror" once 9/11 happened as well, I wouldn't have been suprised if someone in America/Israeli politics blamed the atrocities on the Palestinians.

"The Israeli message is that the Goldstone report threatens those countries because it makes the war on terror very difficult, and therefore efforts must be made to prevent it from being brought before the International Criminal Court in The Hague." No, it simply makes it more difficult for Israel to do this again to the Gazans. The argument seems to rest on a logical fallacy i.e. that if the veto-wielders on the UNSC *don't* wield their veto then they will lose their right to veto any future accusations made against THEM. Err, no, there is no "use it or lose it" provision in the UN Charter, nor a "fair use" provision. Those powers can sit on their hands in THIS situation and still be safe in the knowledge that the same CAN'T be done to them. Look, if Israel wants this vetoed then it will have to pay a cost, because this report DOES apportion blame to both Israel AND "the terrorists". It fulfills the Negroponte Doctrine, and so a US veto is *not* a given.

should clean up the drek, not try to get Obama to do it! The poor man is having enough dung flung at him in his own country by very unhappy Americans.

i think we will after the next war, where every idf soldier that has left to fight, will come back with handcuffs.

This is a very biased article. It quotes extensively from Israeli gov't officials but not from the Palestinians. It is almost as if you don't consider them equal human beings. Hmm, maybe that is the problem...

..Obama would have to be seriously nuts to come to the rescue since the Israeli government refuses to comply on settlements. The Gaza invasion was an obvious war crime by all standards. It is about time for the Israeli government to face the music, and stop begging for more favors that are completely undeserved.

...even as Israel is refusing to adhere to international law and end the expansion of its illegal colonies? Good Luck With That.

Obama needs Bibi backing on settlement freeze

Yes. This is a great idea! It would complement nicely the systematic humiliation of Obama and his policy the Israeli government has launched to destroy America's ability to deal fairly with both sides in your conflict with Palestinians. This would drive a stake through the heart of such efforts. As long as you believe that the only answer to your conflict is the harshest military action possible, then you should be accountable, alone, for your actions. It doesn't seem to bother you when you are bombing. Try asking us to help you make peace by fulfilling your obligation to halt building in the territories. That would serve everyone's interests, not just yours.

War criminals should pack their bags and get ready for a free trip to the Hague. Israel can not behave like a rabid dog killing thousands of civilians, destroying infra structures, starving millions of non combatants all in the name of "war on terror". Many Israelis already agree with the Goldstone report. Israel's actions in Lebanon and in Gaza were despicable and those responsible regardless of their position should face justice. Israel need to join the civilized world and realize that acting like a mad dog in conflict has a price. Crying uncle may have worked with former president Bush, but there is a new sheriff in town.

Goldstone you are a fool. War is War. Hamas and the rest of the dogs started this war, also they use people as human shields kids also to achieve their ends. You Goldstone have got a bloody nerve to question Israel on war crimes. You may as well question Russia and America for attacting Germany in world war 2 and destroying Germany, after all hittler only killed 6 million Jews +. Goldstone you need to resign, you are not up to the job. God has warned those who appose Israel. The war on Israel should not have been questioned.

It's about time these war criminals face justice for their crimes. Hopefully the ICC prosecutes the criminals all the way to the top.