Israel has made a good case against Goldstone

listen here peter, we all know how you zionists "donate" (bribe) our governments, and how you take them on an "enlightment" tour of israel, but for some reason never to gaza, to see why the pals attack, we know whats going on peter, and eventually there will be an overthrow of our government, when we start to starve and overpay.

a: "Yes indeed, the United States of America starts a war every three years more and less." Indeed true; the USA is as warmongering as its mini-me. How does that absolve its mini-me, arik? a: "Basically these are imperialistic wars," Agreed. a: "while Israel wars are self defense ones." I disagree: Israel fights wars of aggression in pursuit of a policy of territorial self-agrandizement i.e. its wars are wars of colonial expansionism and regional hegemony. a: "So what is the problem with this? " Colonial expansionism is more than frowned upon, arik, and Israel's desire for regional hegemony are going to end in tradegy - for Israel.

Therefore there's nothing to worry about, is there?

JB: "Err, Ingrid, I know that this will come as a profound shock to you, but Israel *did* start Operation Cast Lead." PW: "Even the left winged Australian Government blamed Hamas for the war in Gaza." Note that I talked about who **STARTED** Operation Cast Lead, while Peter talks about who was **BLAMED** for that war. Or, in short: Peter is a devote of the SDHD school of "response by non sequitur". Israel - not Hamas - STARTED Operation Cast Lead, and that simply can not be denied. I'll point out that Peter Williams actually made no attempt to deny that; he merely handwaves it away by talking about Something Else Entirely.

L: "ever occurred onto your mind to think of Israel's motivation? " More than you, apparently. The end of the six month ceasefire was approaching and Hamas wanted to extend that ceasefire for another six months. Indeed, Hamas wanted to EXPAND that ceasefire to include the West Bank as well. And how did Israel respond? Why, Liza, Ehud Barak responded by sending a IDF squad deep into Gaza, killing six Hamas men as they went. "ever occurred onto your mind to think of Israel's motivation?" Yeah, Liza, Ehud Barak clearly did not want that ceasefire to continue, so he broke it by killing six Hamas men and THAT's when the rockets fired. Liza, you aren't taking lessons from Zvi, are you?

Zvi: "It launched 85 rockets and other artillery against Israeli cities in one day in December." Just outta the blue, heh? No reason behind it, hey? Hamas just decided they had to use these rockets before the warranty period expired, correct? Only...... Barak sent the IDF into Gaza on 4th Nov, killing six Hamas militants. It was only after that raid that Hamas launched rockets in reply. So Zvi begins his narrative in the **MIDDLE**, because if you start your narrative in the **MIDDLE** you don't have to acknowledge the blame of those who threw the first punch. Always. Start. Your. History. Lesson. In. The Middle: it is one of the oldest tricks in the Hasbarah Handbook. They've taught you well, Zvi.....

JB: "Err, Ingrid, I know that this will come as a profound shock to you, but Israel *did* start Operation Cast Lead." SDHD: "Cast Lead began after a week`s worth of intense rocket barrages and warnings to cease, clueless one." Err, SDHD, in what way have you managed to "refute" my post with that line of yours? I said Israel started Operation Cast Lead. You agreed that Israel started Operation Cast Lead. And yet, somehow, you think that you have shot me down in flames! Hahahahahahahahah! Man, if there was ever a trophy for "talkback cluelessness" then "SDHD" would be the only name engraved on the dinky little shields. You'd be the winner, week after tedious week...

The 46-page IDF report that attempts to rebutt the Goldstone Report doesn't just contain a multitude of errors; it contains some rather ominous porkie pies. The IDF emphatically denies having bombed the Gaza Strips only flour mill yet found among the ruins of the mill is the undoubted remains of a 500kg Mk82 Israel air-dropped bomb. Back to the drawing board boys. The world knows all about your crimes - and bombing the only flour mill in the Gaza is an explicit war crime. Ordinary Israelis should rid themselves of the lying fascist Zionist governement before they bring about the destruction of the entire region.

"Err, Ingrid, I know that this will come as a profound shock to you, but Israel *did* start Operation Cast Lead." Cast Lead began after a week's worth of intense rocket barrages and warnings to cease, clueless one.

"Egypt is likened to a reed, and by relying on it, Israel hurts only itself, for the reed will snap and its jagged ends will pierce the sholders of those who had leaned on it. Instead of having a protector against Nebuchadnezzar, who would soon become their conqueror, the Jews will be forced to stand erect on their own power if they wish to survive. Pharaoh the arrogant, who had boasted of his prowess - and like the Pharaoh of the Exodus, proclaimed himself the god who had created the River of Egypt - will finally be returned to his homeland, chastened and powerless. No longer will Israel make the foolish mistake of trusting a guarantor, whose "friendship" succeeded only in recalling Israel's own sinfulness.

Truth and justice will prevail. Israel may try to use public relations to shift the focus, but the gravity of the Israeli use of undue force is obvious. If Israel is so sure of its righteousness, then it should have no problem having an impartial investigation of its actions.

J: "Israel did not begin Operation Cast Lead on Election Day which was in early November." James is correct, because I remembered (incorrectly) that Israel had attempted a daily double, when in fact Israel had pulled off the (much trickier) trifecta. Israel broke the CEASEFIRE with Hamas on November 4th when Barak sent in an IDF patrol that killed six Hamas militants i.e. two days after the US Presidential election. Israel then LAUNCHED its war upon Gaza on December 27 i.e. two days after Christmas. And Israel then abruptly ENDED its war upon Gaza on January 17th i.e. one day before inauguration. So Israel couldn't have planned it better (*chortle*) i.e. it MANUFACTURED its "casus belli" out of thin air while the USA wasn't paying attention, it waited until the USA was in full Xmas swing before launching its dinky WAR, and then it abruptly ended that WAR before Obama could took over the reins. Gosh, you could almost get suspicious that Israel fought a war of choice!

L: "ever occurred onto your mind to think of Israel's motivation? " More than you, apparently. The end of the six month ceasefire was approaching, and Hamas wanted to extend that ceasefire for another six months. Indeed, Hamas wanted to EXPAND that ceasefire to include the West Bank as well. And how did Israel respond? Why, Liza, Ehud Barak responded by sending a IDF squad deep into Gaza, killing six Hamas men as they went. "ever occurred onto your mind to think of Israel's motivation?" Yeah, Liza, it is clear that Ehud Barak did not want that ceasefire to continue, so he broke it by killing six Hamas men. THAT's when the rockets fired i.e. in response to BARAK's actions. Liza, you are taking lessons from Zvi, are you? You know: start the narrative in the middle, because that absolves Israel from any blame for what happened in the beginning.....

"the document gives a wide-ranging and well-argued reply to many of the claims raised by Goldstone." I guess Amos Harel you did not read the Goldstoine report and you also do not study the results of investigations into previous incidents. For example the shot fired at the reporter, Bertrand Aguirre of TF1 or the dead of Abed Takkoush, or the dead of James Miller. For the last one see: http://www.rsf.org/spip.php?page=article&id_article=7662

Zvi: "It launched 85 rockets and other artillery against Israeli cities in one day in December." Just outta the blue, heh? No reason behind it, hey? Hamas just decided they had to use these rockets before the warranty period expired, correct? Only...... Israeli forces sent a raiding party into Gaza on 4th Nov, killing six Hamas militants. It was only AFTER that raid that Hamas launched rockets as a 'response to Israel's massive breach of the truce'. " So Zvi begins his narrative in the MIDDLE, because that allows him to point the finger of blame at those who are RESPONDING to being swatted, and not at those who threw the first punch. One Of The Oldest Trick In The Hasbarah Book, Zvi. They've taught you well.....

....Iran, etc. etc. etc. Or is it only the jews that these inquiries are demanded from. All of the others have killed civilians without anything near Israel's care. It is folly to treat the kangaroo court sryle of the UN as something to be considered as serious judicial inquiry. Only an idiot would subject himself to such enquiries as emanate from the latest incarnation of the series of laughable human rights committees.

PW: " Even the left winged Australian Government blamed Hamas for the war in Gaza." Anyone else care to notice the sleight of hand that Peter Williams just pulled. That's right, Peter insists on arguing about who is TO BLAME for the war in Gaza. A non sequitur, because I argued that Israel LAUNCHED the war in Gaza. That is undeniably true; Operation Cast Lead was LAUNCHED by Israel. I can even give you the date and the location, Peter: December 27, when Israel swatted a police graduation ceremony.

'Drawn up by the Foreign Ministry, the Justice Ministry and the IDF prosecutor's office, the document gives a wide-ranging and well-argued reply to many of the claims raised by Goldstone. ' That's right. Keep telling yourself that.

Goldstone. If they could have excommunicated Spinoza,they can do it to Goldstone too. In comparison,Spinoza was a towering figure.

It launches a war every two or three years, so it doesn`t have TIME to get all retrospective, let alone **introspective**. Yes indeed, the United States of America starts a war every three years more and less. Big wars and small wars. Basically these are imperialistic wars, while Israel wars are self defense ones. Sometimes against countries and lately against a bunch of terrorists that use humean shields most of the times. Innocent people die, that is true. So what is the problem with this? The Goldstone report will be buried in the garbage of history. The reason is that the world agenda is filled with more important and threatening challenges. Iran is one of them... At the end of tghe day who cares about Goldstone? The Chinese, the Russians, the Italians???????One year more and nobody will remember even his name.

most. the key difference is antisemitism. We don't stand on skeletons but as you go around the world antisemitic acts are committed in abundance.

Most reasonable people know that the Goldstone report was a libel and nothing else. Chalk it up as another protocols of the eldars of Zion.

"It also contains some interesting details that were never, for some reason, disclosed to the Israeli media and public about Operation Cast Lead." Hmmmmm. . . I wonder why that would be?

Even if there is no single Jew in the world, untisimites will not change their hate speeches. Look at Spain, Poland, Greece,Portugal there are practically no Jews there and untesemitis is doing just great!

Goldstone and his crony commissioners themselves make the case against their 'report': 1.By accepting a blatant biased prejudged charge to find war crimes against Israel-2.Having at least 2 of the 4 commissioners who had already said and written Israel committed war crimes prior to accepting being on the commission-3. Using faulty methods that only allowed for information against Israel.-4. Accepting hearsay evidence against.-5. Admitting largely unproved charges against Israel.-6. Refusing outside information favoring Israel.

SuperJew. I like that. Durson is exactly as you called her. She is a nobody with nothing to do between medications. She now doesn't even dispute her hate for the Jews and all things Jewish. Remember to capitalize the J in SuperJew !! Durson, there's lots of freaks and nazi's that you could cuddle up to, or are you underneath one now? Shut up hater. Long live Israel!!!!!!

The bottom line is more than 90 percent of us have never fought in any conflict, ever. We thus have no idea as to what's "normal" or "justified." Unfortunately, the world only seems interested in investigating one conflict, thus guaranteeing that there is no modern standard against which we can compare and judge Israel's actions. If there really were such a thing as interest in global justice, the UN would set up a standing commission that would really investigate every major conflict, from the U.S. operation in Iraq and Afghanistan to the Russian bombing of Chechnya. Then, and only then, would we be able to determine who is behaving properly and who is not.

An EERIE SILENCE. Just before the Yom Kippur War,there was silence on the Syrian side, although they could have retaliated. The Israelis misinterpreted the silence,thinking that the Syrians were scared. But in fact both Syria & Egypt were fiverishly putting the last touches for a surprise blow,& didn't want a small skirmish to spoil their grand plan. The rest is history. Now. For a few months there's an eerie silence,both from the North & the South. Israel ! Don't be sucked in by this deception ! PREPARE !

Why then do Arabs and Muslims insist on spreading the myth that there was no cultural Jewish history in the Middle East? they never admitted to no such thing. as a matter of fact they preserved much of it. it was the jews who came from europe who blew up synagogues not the arabs. it was european jews who converted to judaism or zionism who came and claimed history of a land they never posessed in their history. but u see the arab world believes in the Torah. they know their ancestors were jews. it is the jews who refuse to think of the arabs as part of the jewish history. there is nothing worse than when you people twist the facts to make others evil, when the whole while it is u that re evil. go back to where you came from, u have no claims the pals r the true tribes of isrl. they just moved on from Judaism. they became Christians when Jesus "the king of jews was crucified by jews". than when Mohammed came to them, they went to Islam.

Israel is a sovereign democracy with cehcks and balances and a civilian controlled army! This Israeli report should put to end any further rumblings from the Tyrannical regimes running the U High Commission on Human Rights. After all, why should Israel be forced to listen to what Cuba, Libya, and Saudi Arabia and their friends have to say on this matter? Enough has been said already! The real culprits are Hamas and the Palestinian Authority, who violate human rights on a daily basis!

Imagine having leaders like Israelis have. The Government issues a report stating that The IDF "Had disciplined" two Soldiers, A Brigadier General and a colonel--no less--apparently without their knowledge. The IDF now denies any such inquiry and presumably the two soldiers are in agreement. Is this why Israel refuses to go to the Hague to present their three stooges show. Netanyahu/Lieberman/Dershowitz.

"Sometimes you must make a couple of small sacrifices to maintain the charade". yes, exactly right! you are sacrificing your time, your integrity(of which you have none), your morals(none), so that you can maintain your charade...which is to say, you are a jew hater and you have only your pathetic charade to hang on to in order to try to mask why you are really here...

the IDF flatly denies the disciplining of two officers for misconduct. What more to expect?

...this investigation has "legs" and will percolate among "International Circles" for another 1/2 year or more. The reason: there's some truth to all the allegations...Operation Cast Lead is not the way to solve the long term problem.

"From inquisition to czar, to nazis, to Hamas, to present day human rights activists Jew haters showed that logic cannot break them" Neither will a Commission of Inquiry headed by a an Israeli Supreme Court Justice. Only if the findings are that Israel committed war crimes will they accept its' findings. Anything other will be called a whitewash. So why should Israel hold one if the Jew haters have already pronounced Israel guilty.

From inquisition to czar, to nazis, to Hamas, to present day human rights activists Jew haters showed that logic cannot break them.

Johnboy has no support here either. Even the left winged Australian Government blamed Hamas for the war in Gaza.

It launched 85 rockets and other artillery against Israeli cities in one day in December. Israel threatened to strike back if Hamas did not stop firing. Hamas continued to fire. Israel struck back. The fact that Israel called its response "Cast Lead" does not change the fact that the war was started as Operation Oil Stain, by Hamas. You are quite simply wrong.

ever occurred onto your mind to think of Israel*s motivation? Or can*t you think that far? That shows your capacities are limited?

Israel did not begin Operation Cast Lead on Election Day which was in early November. The IDF did withdraw all forces by January 20th (Inaugural Day) but what difference does that make? You are quite the scientist of incoherent conspiracy theories.

E: "I suppose your guilt for the slaughter of the Aborigines has led you to seek a conscience in a far flung land in the Middle East." Hasbarah Standard Operating Procedure. Rule One: Point somewhere else. Rule Two: Point somewhere else. Rule Three: Point somewhere else. Why do you think that can possibly exhonerate Israel, sunshine?

I: "The fact that you accuse Israel of starting wars, like Gaza, in which it completely withdrew, only to undergo an onslaught of 12,000 missles on its homes and its children, show us exactly where you come from." Err, Ingrid, I know that this will come as a profound shock to you, but Israel *did* start Operation Cast Lead. It chose the opening day of that Operation (USA election day, how convenient) and it chose the day it ended (the day before Obama's inauguration. How odd, heh?). If there is ever a "war of choice" then it's a war when you a) decide when it starts, and then you b) get to choose when it ends.....

"Israel has made a good case against Goldstone" Well maybe it had, but it's all just gone up in smoke, white phosphorous smoke. The government's admission of some guilt on behalf of two senior offices using WP, has just been flatly rejected by the IDF. The careful cover story that you admired is blown apart and basically the whole world can see that a proper international investigation is the only way.

I suppose your guilt for the slaughter of the Aborigines has led you to seek a conscience in a far flung land in the Middle East.Genocide is taking place as we speak here in Australia. perhaps you should show more interest in your local killing fields before you comment on matters that you are so obviously ignorant. have "another beer mate"

All this IDF media circus and fanfare counts to nothing. It is the accused who is investigating himself and passing the judgement and verdict. If the IDF is really serious about this let an independent investigation committee take the case. It is absurd and ludicrous that the IDF officers exceeding their authority, endangering civilian lives (according to the report, get away with a minor reprimand. What message will that send to other IDF soldiers and officers? Well. it is always the usual one, you can and act the way you like (when it comes to the Palestinians) and the worst thing that can happen to you is a minor reprimand from your commanding officer. Would Israelis accept that, in case one of their citizens was wrongly treated by a member of the police force of a foreign country, which in this case a far less serious incident? The usual cries of antisemitism will pierce the skies. Mr. Harel stop being hypocritical

The fact that you accuse Israel of starting wars, like Gaza, in which it completely withdrew, only to undergo an onslaught of 12,000 missles on its homes and its children, show us exactly where you come from. A place where Jews can be targeted and murdered, but aren't allowed to take action to protect themselves. Thanks for sharing.

"Just appoint the friggin` judicial inquiry, fer` goodness sakes! If you guys have nothing to hide then LET a former supreme court judge ferret around," Sorry, screwball... military secrets and strategies remain with the military. That way, it serves the public interest.

Reprimandinding officers for "murder" is this a joke?

Isn't Hamas the "democratically" elected government of the Palestinians? So it is they duty to make a internal investigation too and to publish a inquiry report like Israel has done. If this is not going to happen soon, the international community must put the Hamas officials on trial for their repeated and (in the Goldstone report underestimated) war crimes. Or both the international community and Hamas will be satisfied with the Goldstone report alone? This would give the coup the grace to the moral and political legitimacy of any further international claim against Israel, a tendency which is already implicitly contained in the (biased and misleading) Goldstone report itself.

lets start to clean our own backyard and yes you are a boy, greetings from Perth

... is that he is Jewish... it's so much easier to accuse a goy of all the 'sins' heaped on him...

I: "Because if Israel has to investigate every bogus claim of war crime, we`ll spend the next century wasting money and manpower and draining our ability to protect ourselves. " Indeed true, when one considers that Israel starts far more wars than any other country of its size. If it had to appoint an inquiry into each and every war that it launches, well, where would it find enough retired judges? Much better just to go WHAMMER-JAMMER, and when the questions start to be asked to simply wave them off with a "Wot? That? Nah, don't you worry 'bout that....." I: "Until then, its no more than persecution of the Jewish state and the applying of double standards." Yeah, stop bothering Israel. It launches a war every two or three years, so it doesn't have TIME to get all retrospective, let alone **introspective**. Leave it be, man! Can't you see it's much too busy for all that shit?

ZM: "Hypothetically, if Israel were to present a perfect report dispelling each and every accusation, the response would be negative" Look, Goldstone himself stressed that if Israel appoints a commission of inquiry then THAT IS ENOUGH to prevent the issue being taken any further. ZM: "It is sadly a lose-lose situation for Israel, as are most things." That is nonsense, because the history of past Israeli commissions shows that you are wrong e.g. the Kahan and Winograd Commissions stopped all int'l investigations COLD, but Israel's refusal to appoint commission into the Shahade assassination in 2002 and Cast Lead continues to leave the threat of int'l prosecution hanging over the heads of those responsible. JUDICIAL INVESTIGATIONS DO THE TRICK. INTERNAL IDF PROBES DO NOT. Israel's own history shows that to be true, Zachary.

every countries military actions then israel should so do ! until then the response to this anti semitism is for all to "take the far queue"

... the day will yet come when we will thank Goldstone for lancing this wound, instead of leaving it to fester forever in the international arena...

Any need for psychiatrist to explain what a "rocket falling on your head" looks like? I don't think UN is prepared to consider country under rocket bombardment. You guys are too well fed and too well off. In fact it looked really beautiful when Goldstone went in Gaza for consultation and was whisked in 24 hours because Hamas was in the middle of a salvo... least the judge has to become a witness of what is done to Israel daily. Just like that weather guy, he knows what it's all about... it just his contract does not include anything resembling impartiality. The sucker will pay...

Because if Israel has to investigate every bogus claim of war crime, we'll spend the next century wasting money and manpower and draining our ability to protect ourselves. When the UN begins to demand that Russia and the US start state commissions for war crimes investigations of every incident in which "civillians" are injured or killed during combat, then maybe Israel will follow., Until then, its no more than persecution of the Jewish state and the applying of double standards.

You would understand that its expert , scholar reliable , credible references are widely and Int'lly recognised , accepted and appreciated as a light unto nations , Therefore warrant no state commission of inquiry Kfotz li .

The UN GA which is under heavy Islamic world influence has the option of rejecting whatever Israel presents no matter who does it,it can claim to be unsatisfied and use all the means at their disposal to harass Israel till kingdom come. It has chosen to prostitute the Goldstone reccommendations already.That Goldstone may accept Israels conclusions does not mandate the UN GA will and judging by past track record they will not.

But there is only only one against Israel (it does not even mention Hamas). So lets not give credence to twistet horseheet like this. They should call us after they investigate Saudi Arabia behadings, Chcnia gnocide, Darfur Genocide, US/UK/NATO war crimes in Iraq and Afganistant Belgrade and Falkland.

And we should not lower ourselves to the level of the worse offenders of HR in the world.

Beyond MAG reliable and credible investigations recognised Int'lly by many other States , There is nothing in Int'l Jurisprudence that obligate me to set a state commission of inquiry . You want a state commission of inquiry . I want something in return . I want gestures from Arab States towards irreversible normal relations with the Democratic Jewish State of Israel . A part of such gestures from Arab States must be a OIC-Arab League irreversible sustained and substantial effort to deconstruct the Anti-Zionism propaganda belief . I want to see substantial results between June and end of the year in order to be lured to set up a state commission of inquiry . Do we have a deal ? . Wafa Sultan once in a confrontation with some cleric on Al-jazeera asked: "Can you as a Muslim deny the massacre of the Jews of the Bani Qureyza tribe, by Muhammad and his followers?" The question was meant to remind him that if the massacre of Jews is recorded in the Quran then it means that there were Jewish communities in the middle East long before Muhammad. Why then do Arabs and Muslims insist on spreading the myth that there was no cultural Jewish history in the Middle East?

If reprimanding a guilty military commander for endangering civilians(Palestinians in this case) proves that the army in question is moral I wonder what constitutes immorality.

Sometimes you must make a couple of small sacrifices to maintain the charade.

Don't you think, Israel is culturally bankrupt to call any criticism with "Antisemitism" insult, even to jews; isn't this policy of standing on skeleton of Jews- who were massacred by Europeans- and committing criminal acts like the one in Gaza is total failure; when are you people going to stop accusing everybody else for your failed policies?

Haha I have to laugh. Israel just can not admit she was wrong and is guilty. Yup like Gideon Levy said only psychiatrists can explain Israel's behaviour.

but it will count for nothing in the UN.

Hypothetically, if Israel were to present a perfect report dispelling each and every accusation, the response would be negative. It is sadly a lose-lose situation for Israel, as are most things. If Israel's detractors would be willing to give it credit for some of its more accommodating actions, it might be more willing to engage in cooperative gestures.

Israel haters will never be satisfied by anything Israel ever does (unless it disappears, in which they would finally be satisfied). Do not allow the int'l propaganda campaign vs. Israel to succeed: tell the Goldstoners to go to h*ll.

Anything short of an INDEPENDENT inquiry NOT under IDF control is meaningless.

from Zohar Noach "And he repaired the altar of Hashem that was ruined" The Covenant between mankind and God connects to the Sfirah (Dimension) of Yesod, which correlates to the reproductive organs of man. There is also a vital spiritual link to the circumcision of a newborn male child. The underlying reason of this section is the Kabbalistic doctrine that all war, natural disasters, famine, slaughter, and massacre can be traced to destructive spiritual forces arising from Humanity's negative sexual acts. Negative sexual acts are defined as those that are not for the purpose of procreation or for the bringing of Light to the world."

Just appoint the friggin' judicial inquiry, fer' goodness sakes! If you guys have nothing to hide then LET a former supreme court judge ferret around, and then you can wave **his** report under everyone's nose. But continuing to wave about report after report **FROM** the IDF **ABOUT** the IDF is not going to cut it. Stop pretending that it will, because it won't.

The response to the Goldstone Report clearly shows that during Operation Cast Lead, some incidents were beyond the military goal and below our moral standards, and therefore, measures have been taken against those responsible. Thus, the conclusion must be that the mantra that "the Israel Defense Forces is the most moral army in the world." is indeed true!