IDF probes top officers on Gaza war strike that killed 21 family members
Former Givati commander and others probed for authorizing air strike despite warnings of civilians in the area.
By Amos Harel and Anshel PfefferSenior army officers are under investigation for authorizing an air strike in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead that killed 21 members of the same family despite possibly receiving warnings from subordinates that there could be civilians in the area.
One of those involved in authorizing the strike was then-Givati Brigade commander Col. Ilan Malka.
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An explosion from an Israeli missile strike in the northern Gaza Strip on Dec. 27, 2008. |
| Photo by: AP |
A security source told Haaretz that the Military Police probe into the incident turned out to be particularly complex, and added that this is "explosive and highly sensitive material," which casts a shadow on senior figures in the military. If a decision is made to bring charges against those involved, the source said, there will be deliberations on the broader question of the rules of engagement during the operation. The rules of engagement had been described by officers who participated in Cast Lead as both excessive and overly lenient.
A decision on whether or not to charge officers has not yet been made.
The incident occurred on January 5, 2009, in the neighborhood of Zeitun in Gaza City. At the time, Givati units were on a mission in the neighborhood and identified the home of the Samouni family as a location of armed Palestinian militants.
An air strike was twice called in over a short period of time. Twenty-one people were killed, among them women and children, and 19 were injured.
Israel Defense Forces ground troops began operations in Zeitun on the night between the 3rd and the 4th of January. The forces also carried out some searches on the street where the Samouni clan lives. Some 100 family members had gathered in one of the homes.
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Former Givati commander Colonel Ilan Malka is involved in probe into Gaza war strike. |
| Photo by: Eliahu Ben Igal / Jini |
According to the testimony of the family members, the IDF forces entered the home on January 4 and ordered them to stay in the home that they had already searched.
Some family members went out occasionally to collect wood for a fire. The soldiers watching the house knew clearly that there were civilians there.
On January 5 at 7 A.M., three or four missiles struck the home and its environs. According to witnesses, the missiles were fired from the air.
In two other cases in the same area, there were reports that three other members of the clan had been killed by the IDF.
Following the operation, IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi appointed a number of investigation teams to look into unusual incidents. A team headed by Col. Tamir Yadi did not conclude that there had been anything out of the ordinary in the air strike.
Pressure from the UN following the Goldstone report led to the appointment of another team of investigators, headed by Col. Erez Katz, in November 2009.
The investigators' conclusions led Military Advocate General Maj. Gen. Avichai Mendelblit to order a Military Police investigation into the possibility that there had been a violation of the rules of engagement.
At the time the MAG explained that the delay in ordering an investigation stemmed also from the different incidents involving members of the Samouni clan.
Security sources told Haaretz that the investigation included testimonies from air force officers who had warned the Givati Brigade commander that there could be civilians in the area.
During the investigation, the Brigade commander said that he had not been aware of the warning that there may be civilians and that the choice of missiles over gravity bombs - which would have caused more damage - was proportional to the risk the troops were running when confronted by militants nearby.
The chief defense lawyer in the IDF, Col. Udi Ben-Eliezer, who is representing Malka, told Haaretz that "the brigade commander's actions were aimed at removing the immediate threat to his soldiers, in line with the data he had at the time."
At least two very senior officers, outgoing GOC Southern Command Yoav Galant, and GOC Central Command Avi Mizrahi, opposed an MP investigation. Mizrahi said that on the basis of his professional evaluation of the video of the attack Malka had behaved "reasonably. In his place I would have done the same."
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Paragraphs 43-47 of the Goldstone Executive Summary deal with such incidents. Paragraph 47 may be referring to the incident described in this article. I quote: "The last incident concerns the launch of a bomb on a house resulting in the killing of 22 family members. Israel's position in this case is that there was an "operational error" and that the intended target was a neighbouring house storing weapons. On the basis of its investigation, the Mission expresses significant doubts about the Israeli authorities' account of the incident." Apparently, the Israeli excuse of "operational error" is no longer used since it was invalidated by Goldstone. At least something is moving.
That's part of his reward, all will be well soon.That's just how things work in Israel, this is what they call law and order and democracy.
At the time of WWI the ratio of dead civilians to dead soldiers was about 1 to 10. It became now about 10 to 1.... (just think of Darfur, Somalia, Iraq, etc, where the dead are in the tens of thousands, not 21, or 9...) ..... Most wars today are wars between Muslims among themselves or between Muslims against the West ..... AND THE MUSLIM METHOD OF WAR CONSISTS, MOSTLY, OF KILLING CIVILIANS ,... Iraq is an example .... Therefore, all present beautiful rules of fighting, like UNHCR's, or Red Cross, are simply impossible to follow by one side, be it American, Russian, or Israeli, when the other side can, as in Russia, kill hundreds of small children in front of the entire world watching in horror. And, of course, remaining UNPUNISHED by the UNHCR .... for which I used the word - "unfairness" - ...... Is that fair???? So, what is next? The widespread use of rockets which cannot differentiate military from civilians. That is now becoming THE PRIDE of Iran, Syria, Hamas and Hezbollah. New interested countries - Venezuela!!! What for, oh God!! And facing those are individuals like Goldstone or Mrs. Ashton, or newspapers like The Guardian from the UK from where most terror starts its spread! Or the Scandinavians.... Would that they get a full riposte for their unfairness!
war criminals!
21 against 60000 and now where are people like Goldstone Mr. Ban and all the organizations always ready to de-legitimize IDF
The Israel Defense Forces' chief rabbi told students in a pre-army yeshiva program last week that soldiers who "show mercy" toward the enemy in wartime will be "damned." http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/idf-chief-rabbi-troops-who-show-mercy-to-enemy-will-be-damned-1.4175 Amalek references: http://www.haaretz.com/news/gaza-campaign-is-war-against-amalek-says-chief-rabbi-of-safed-1.268296 - See the headline Haaretz should remind its readers of what soldiers instructions were. Cast lead was a holy war to some.
Barak the Coward withdrew before the job was finished. Gaza needs to be totally cleaned out of the vermin and filth called Hamas.
The Israeli psyche regarding their national persecution of the Palestinians is very interesting and never compromised by any rational thoughts or facts. In any argument regarding Israeli behaviour the pattern of excuses is depressingly familiar. First use the tired old accusation of anti-semitism and follow this by ad hominem attacks [either on individuals or nation states]. Israel's actions in Gaza have been barbaric and amount to war-crimes and are seen as such by the entire international community. Israelis in general do not have the introspection to see or acknowledge this. For the people on this Talk Back who have attempted to justify Operation Cast Lead I have two questions; 1. If you really believe that Hamas used civilians as shields why did Israel specifically prevent civilian evacuation from Gaza ? 2. Do you realize that preventing civilians leaving a war-zone is a war-crime and one that the Waffen SS and the Gestapo used to great effect in Warzaw ?
At the time, Olmert "regretted the deaths" and then said "look what you made us so." It's all their fault. Just like a 5 or six year old who broke someone else's property or nose.
A 100- to 1 death ratio is reasonable. Airburst white phosphor over civilian centres is reasonable. The use of children as human shields is reasonable. And so is the continual sniping of rubble collectors many of whom are again children. All of these things and so many more are reasonable... if you are a callous hate filled murdered do the bidding of a corrupt racist regime.
The bottom line is this. If the arabs of gaza did not shoot kassam rockets, morters or any other ordinence over the border in to Israel, "cast lead" would never had been initiated!
Paragraphs 43-47 of the Goldstone Executive Summary deal with such incidents. Paragraph 47 may be referring to the incident described in this article. I quote: "The last incident concerns the launch of a bomb on a house resulting in the killing of 22 family members. Israel's position in this case is that there was an "operational error" and that the intended target was a neighbouring house storing weapons. On the basis of its investigation, the Mission expresses significant doubts about the Israeli authorities' account of the incident." Apparently, the Israeli excuse of "operational error" is no longer used since it was invalidated by Goldstone. At least something is moving.
If zionists want a fight, let it be fair. Zionist cowards have the latest weaponry thanks to the American senators on AIPAC payroll. But at the same time, you prevent Palestinians getting even a grenade. How could such a war be fair where the weaponry of both sides have no comparison at all? zionists are the most cowardly people on earth. Let Palestinians have the same weapons and then fight and defeat them if you have the balls. I know you Zionists are coward and afraid of them and that is the same reason you want to prevent all their arms import. Be a man.
A 100- to 1 death ratio is reasonable. Airburst white phosphor over civilian centres is reasonable. The use of children as human shields is reasonable. And so is the continual sniping of rubble collectors many of whom are again children. All of these things and so many more are reasonable... if you are a callous hate filled murdered do the bidding of a corrupt racist regime.
... is the fact that up until Cast Lead there were an average of a dozen missiles fired out of Gaza per day for six years. Even during the "Cease Fire" May to November 2008, there was an average of a missile or mortar per day. There was some collateral damage in Cast Lead, but 75% of those killed were adult male armed fighters. This is astoundingly good evidence of IDF ethics considering the urban scenario into which Hamas forced them to fight.
.... their method of fight being to shoot from behind the skirts of their wives and the toys and puppets of children or concealed in hospitals .... same as Hezbollah in Lebanon ...... moreover, Goldstone did not clearly, include in his report the previous many years of suicide terror against Israel, the killing of many hundreds of Israeli civilians and the thousands of rockets launched, blindly, into Israel, regardless where they might fall. IN OTHER WORDS, GOLDSTONE DID NOT SHOW THAT THE "CRIMES" OF THE IDF AGAINST CIVILIANS WERE INCIDENT TO A DIFFICULT WAR WHILE THOSE OF HAMAS WERE PURPOSELY DIRECTED AGAINST CIVILIANS..... and they continue to this moment. And THAT is a crime, Goldstone's and UNCHR's, ugly crime!
Operation Cast Lead Was a success in that the wholesale lobbing of thousands of rocets at Israel has ceased.The world is quick to forget about Israeli Lives Lost or in peril on a daily basis for almost 4 years. Apparently Jewish blood is cheap.The only ones who brought these murders to justice was the IDF. God bless Israel and the IDF.
I am glad the incident is being investigated. But note that if this had been Arab killing 21 Jews, they would have not been investigated, but treated as heros.
Without Hamas kidnapping Gilad Shalit and not preventing the projectiles being fired into israel, this could have been prevented. This is one giant tragedy I place at the foosteps of the Hamas for its continued intransigence. As a Jew, I am constantly reminded that no people have a monopoly on suffering.
We have tried giving them land for peace, unilateral evacuations and surgically hitting the terrorist but nothing works. Maybe we should clear the area of all civilians. Give them monetary compensation and send them to Egypt
Establish peace and there will be no more incidents like this!
Unfortunately there are civilian casualties in every war. Since both Hamas and Hezbollah make it a point to attack from civilian areas, there is no way for the IDF to protect its soldiers without hurting civilians.Had Hamas not fired thousands of rockets into Southern Israel, there would have been no need for Operation Cast Lead. Hamas brought disaster on their own people. They are the ones responsible.
Probe shmobe. The IDF and the Israeli state routinely kills innocent people and then lies about it. Killers and liars R them!
Altough this Givati commander did an awfull wrong thing and should pay for that, the probe can happened only and only in ademocratic country.
Cleary any reasonable officer "would have done the same" "to eliminate immediate threat against soldiers". Pity Hamas piled in opposition clam members as human shields to make their words "you shall do things you never thought you would do" come true.
the entire of gaza is about 23 sq.km, it holds 1.5 million people. exactly what part does not have civlilians?
Hamas knew they could quickly hunker down in their terror tunnels, post their "No Civilians Allowed Inside Because You're More Needed On The Outside" signs outside the tunnel entrances and survive relatively unscathed from the war. They knew that mounting collateral casualties from the IDF retaliatory strikes against Hamas' acts of war from amongst their cowardly civilian cover would be immediately broadcast to the international media and bring stinging criticism and pressure on Israel to quickly end the fighting. Many cunning traps were laid for the IDF soldiers with Hamas supporters worldwide waiting with baited breath to hear the good news of captured Israeli soldiers, dead or alive, but the IDF progressed with great caution and used whatever effective measures were necessary to successfully counteract this. In this regard, some IDF mistakes were made in the heat of battle but the protocol precedent that Hamas has set with the usage of ambulances to transport military personnel to battle fronts, shooting from beside hospitals, mosques, and then retreating, etc., makes it entirely unfair to focus on Israeli actions alone while excusing the serious, blatant infractions that Hamas' leaders and aligned supporters instigated.
It is clear that this is suspected war crime. That this was an intended target of civilians no less heinous than a suicide bomber attacking a civilian bus.
A 100- to 1 death ratio is reasonable. Airburst white phosphor over civilian centres is reasonable. The use of children as human shields is reasonable. And so is the continual sniping of rubble collectors many of whom are again children. All of these things and so many more are reasonable... if you are a callous hate filled murdered do the bidding of a corrupt racist regime.
How can you conduct an offensive in gaza and not wound or kill civilians? Impossible
When Hamas and Hezbollah stash their ammunitions in private houses and schools, and fire from the backyards of these areas, and when Hamas terrorists conduct their next suicide bombings in houses with children playing on the roof, casualties are expected and while the IDF phones their targets, and usually refrains from attacking, we can't always ignore the threat. NATO states are only now beginning to realize this with the civilian casualties they're causing due to Taliban doing the same thing, so the hypocrisy is lessening and understanding of this reality is increasing.
Do not fail to moderate comments on the opinion pieces, including op-ed articles (especially of infrequent guests), and the Strenger blog. (B. Burston knows how to take care of his own blog.) These are often the best, and most thought-provoking articles of the day. "The more man meditates upon good thoughts, the better will be his world and the world at large." - Confucius
If Israel has not committed any war crimes, if the IDF has a perfectly good conscience, then what do you have to fear? The more rage you demonstrate fighting the report, the more guilty you appear. Make an inquiry into the charges and prove to the international community that they are wrong. This is the only way you will convince the world. Not by lobbying against Goldstone could do.
Israel could have wiped out all of Gaza in 24 hours had they wanted to target civilians! i amazed at how few civilians died. If it would have been us attacking the Israelis they would have been slaughtered like sheep; this is what the Koran teaches us. We send suicide bombers into markets and mosques to kill our own civilian Moslem brothers. So all this talkback against Israel and the Jews I do not accept.
to those that wasn’t aware of the ruthlessness of the Jewish State. The slaughter of over 300 children and the additional 1000 helpless trapped civilians, some in camps. It revoked the horrors of WWII and the Guernica of Palestine was exposed to the world to see. Those that defended the Israeli actions were all of a sudden considered right wing loonies and the Jewish world was split between these loonies and Jews with Jewish values. No Hasbara in this wide world could help. Trapped women and children running for their lives under a rain of napalm filled our TV screens. Even the White House started to ask the question "Is this in US interest"?, NO was the answer and Israel lost a soul mate. US security interest is vital to the US and Israel will always come second. A fork in the road developed and the US went left and Israel to the right. The Palestinians, buried their dead women and children, confused to the silence of the world. They wised up to and turned to the young President.
Senior army officers are under investigation for authorizing an air strike in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead that killed 21 members of the same family despite possibly receiving warnings from subordinates that there could be civilians in the area.
need more proofs ?
Civilians? Every terrorist may turn to be an innocent civilian few sewconds after firing a rocket or laying explosives , etc. There is an ongoing investigation (by itself a sign of servility ) ;The Givati commander was expected to put on scales risk of his (our) soldiers versus possibly hurt uninvolved locals. (Had they refrained from supporting terror as other Gazans, these eventual victims could possibly have saved their lives, assuming reports will be confirmed as correct )
When the German army rounded up several families and put them together in order to kill them all at once then was was a heinous act of murder. If an Israeli officer knew that there were only civilians in that house and he condoned the attack then even as a Jewish person and a backer of Israel..... I am totally disgusted and ashamed. I can only hope that there was a total lack of communications that led to this catastrophy.
In a war a commander should know that his main objective is to kill enemies, as much as possible. Those "probes" will cause a commander to start thinking about legal implicaions of his commands during combat. This only helps our eneimies. Fortunately there are quite a lot of people who just do not care about those probes as long as the job of killing enemies is properly done. Let the lawers fo their job while we will do ours.
Hamas violence is so extreme, that even all our high Jewish humanitarian values cannot make it stop from provoking havoc among both our peoples.
Regardless of their political affiliation - Hamas, Fatah or otherwise...
So was Israel defending itself, making another mistake, trying to find Hamas, or showing it's might against civilians? Israel has become the neighborhood bully, and killing of civilians is disgusting. If roles were reverse imagine the outrage against the Palestinians, if a family of Israeli's were killed in this horrible way.
Israel should inform the world that anyone who targets Israeli civilians will not be able to hide behind the enemies supporters (civilians). Unfortunately there is always casualties of war and therefore, Israel should attack their enemies without informing them where the fight will take place.
After blanket denials which were absurd given the coverage available world wide at the time, now the IDF has a scapegoat.
People here are just whining in frustration because Israel is more capable of finishing it.
Unless the Israeli government was blind and deaf they knew of many of the incidents while in monition. This might just have been one bomb but other incidents where relevant for days and present all over international news.
World would be a wonderful place without Israel and USA
and the Israeli Defence Force ran amock.
the butcher Arafat was imported from Tunis given arms and land. thousands of Jewish and Arab victims. blown up buses, pizza parlors - try the LEFTIST leaders in a Jewish Beit Din
Killing civilians in Lebanon and Gaza mercilessly Flotilla attack, settler land grabing, illegal occupation of Shebba farms and Golan heights,East Jerusalam and West bank post 1967... No justice no peace, justice is a pre-requisite of peace.
Murderers are murderers are murderers.
investigates and prosecutes its ill doers.
The IDF acted within the internationally recognized Rules of Engagement
Such things happen during war, its the nature of war. A motive to make peace. The sooner peace is done the better for everybody
A 100- to 1 death ratio is reasonable. Airburst white phosphor over civilian centres is reasonable. The use of children as human shields is reasonable. And so is the continual sniping of rubble collectors many of whom are again children. All of these things and so many more are reasonable... if you are a callous hate filled murdered do the bidding of a corrupt racist regime.
are fired into israel from gaza. That is the crime not Israel's defense of its people. Gaza was lucky it wasn't completely destroyed, but hamas is still not concerned for its citizens to completely stop the rockets. Such madness. There is no occupation of gaza by israel, just an embargo so hamas will not be able to bring in advanced weaponry which they would in a heartbeat to fire at israel
Israel is slowly seeing this but still can't accept. Sooner or later they'll all realize the threat that spoiled IDF and settlers creates for Israel.
Found nothing wrong with exterminating 21 members of the same family, but the Goldstone report pointed out that this might not be entirely consistent with the IDF deliberately corralling members of the same family together before firing rockets at them.
their life for us. Civilians are not a legitimate target however in particular circumstances is their own duty and interest to temporarily evacuate the area. The game we are playing with those who are trying to de-legitimize our right to defends is very risky. How can a soldier go to war knowing that probably after that he will have to go for a trial. Every day civilians are killed because no ones care no one is judging anyone ford for
You should rather be ashamed of the attitude of your leaders BEFORE they send in troops and WHILE telling them that everything goes in war.
Don't target civilians, follow international law on the rules of war, etc. Pretty basic stuff really.
Someday Mr Goldstone will be hailed as a hero in Israel, i.e. when peace will be around the corner and people won't want to identify with today's or yesterday's Israeli heroes using violence and teleological arguments to further racists views.
Its happen during the wars to kill and harm enemy civilians; specially in wars like Gaza . I think that all probe and inquire will harm the IDF in the brief and long term. Soldier and officers will be more preoccupied to have a legal advise that to confront attack from terrorist and enemy . In the end it must not be forghet that civilian are enemy civilian and if israel civilian are under attack also enemy civiliam must pay a price .
Then by extension when Israel attacks Gazan civilians, any attacks on Israeli citizens are wholly justified. This is probably not a good stand to take.
thankyou very much .you have exposed true isreali face.
The job of the army is to protect Israeli civilians and soldiers, not to protect the enemy and the population among whom it hides and from where it launches its deadly attacks. These commanders and soldiers are heroes of Israel, and these investigations (the US and NATO do every day in Aghanistan what Israel may have done once or twice in the entire Gaza war) should stop. Anyone remember the US bombing a restaurant in Iraq, killing 14 people because of a rumor that Saddam Hussein might have been there? I haven't heard that being "investigated" nor the subject of apartheid-Judge Goldstone's blinkered scrutiny.
Before it is too late.
How about Turkey gassing Kurdish civilians or Spain and England where governments support terrorism by letting terrorists in,allow them to flourish,enroll people,train them and execute their murderous terror plans? Why just Israel,self declared God?Why not Arab countries for their support of terrorism that killed much more people than Israel in ME or Russia for terror in Chechnya? Why just Israel?Why can Hezbollah,Hamas,Fatah kill own people without being bothered by international community? Why is that?Why just Israel and not others even if they committed more serious crimes than Israel?Genocides,gas,rapes used as weapon,torture....That badge with Star of David you hold in your hand is for me God?LOL
If he knew, he was obeying the IDF Chief Rabbi's injunction, reported here in Haaretz, 'Show no mercy, they are worthy of extermination.' or words of similar import. He called the Gazans the name of a people that the BCE Israelites failed to exterminate wholly in ancient times. If he knew, the orders were deliberate.
A 100- to 1 death ratio is reasonable. Airburst white phosphor over civilian centres is reasonable. The use of children as human shields is reasonable. And so is the continual sniping of rubble collectors many of whom are again children. All of these things and so many more are reasonable... if you are a callous hate filled murdered do the bidding of a corrupt racist regime.
When Hamas shot kassans,may have ignored risk of Sderot war civilian deaths. Blood in, Blood out.
the first investigator. "A team headed by Col. Tamir Yadi did not conclude that there had been anything out of the ordinary in the air strike." If you allow your name to be used in a whitewash you should expect consequences. Or if you are incompetent and/or negligent, or even covering up misdeeds it should have consequences for you. Setting up one investigation that finds nothing only to set up another when an investigation that has no support from the state finds something, does not show an IDF committed to being "moral". It shows an IDF where anything goes as long as it isn't too big to cover up.
This is a new type of war guys, if you rule the peoples hearts and minds, you will need very little force to overcome your enemies. I need your help, You owe me one. there is a young lady in mexico who needs our help policing. if you want to win over the hearts and minds of the world help me help her. her society lives in fear and you guys know best how that feels. i need 150 of the best special forces not to go and fight but just to instill fear in the devilish gangs that are destroying the country that is always protecting you. if you decide to send them I will ask the Qatari's to send 1000. remember it's just for police work, no fighting. remember the embassy bombing in kenya in 1997, they were targetting my Dad for supporting you. you were the first to arrive and ever since kenyans have had special place for israelis. this will uplift your defenders in the U.S.A and win the hearts and minds of the world over to your side. PLEASE TELL BB THIS IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN BUYING PLANES AND BOMBS THAT WILL NEVER BE USED BECAUSE YOUR ENEMIES DO NOT INTEND TO FIGHT YOU BUT TO DISCREDIT YOU. FIGHTING YOU AS PROVEN FUTILE. I WILL REQUEST STEVE 'JOB'S TO FOOT THE BILL DO WORRY ABOUT THAT.SHALOM.
We killed 2,000,000 civilians from bombing in Germany, 400,000 in France, 250,000 in Belgium etc
Allies in WWII did not have the ariel surveylance capabilities that the IDF has. Nor did they have Smart Bombs and GPS Guided Shells... IDF knew exactly who and what they were targetting.
Destroying as much infra structure as possible , including schools ,bakeries,even UN offices etc.was the actual goal of Cast Lead. Of course , the permanent Kassam attacks were intolerable ,but what do you expect to happen when you strangle a whole nation ?
They have no value for life anyway, rather spend money on dropping a second bomb than warning them
Gaza can be completely free today, if they stop electing Hamas. Read the Hamas chart.
From Olmert, Barak and Livni to the soldiers who happily shot white flag-bearing civilian women. They're all war criminals and must be tried.
like hell they wouldn,t
.... their method of fight being to shoot from behind the skirts of their wives and the toys and puppets of children or concealed in hospitals .... same as Hezbollah in Lebanon ...... moreover, Goldstone did not clearly, include in his report the previous many years of suicide terror against Israel, the killing of many hundreds of Israeli civilians and the thousands of rockets launched, blindly, into Israel, regardless where they might fall. IN OTHER WORDS, GOLDSTONE DID NOT SHOW THAT THE "CRIMES" OF THE IDF AGAINST CIVILIANS WERE INCIDENT TO A DIFFICULT WAR WHILE THOSE OF HAMAS WERE PURPOSELY DIRECTED AGAINST CIVILIANS..... and they continue to this moment. And THAT is a crime, Goldstone's and UNCHR's, ugly crime!
Where is there are place in densly populated Gaza that is not "concealed among civilians"? Btw, the Defense Ministry in Tel Aviv is also "concealed among civilians"... God did not show mercy on the children at Gaza's nursery schools, and neither did the Israeli "Defense" (!) Forces.
BTW-- We read about the killing of terrorists, but we never see reportage of the trials? When are all these trials?
You are an empty vessel, a nothing
Are you talking about the Muslim Arabs that came from Arabia and invaded the ME, North Africa and Europe (Iberia, latter kicked out by the Christian Europeans)?
Them damb nomadic arabs, always squatting somewhere and claiming it to be thiers. may they moove back to arabia!
There was nothing chancy about Operation Cast Lead. They wanted to murder over 1,000 civilians and they murdered over 1,000 civilians. They wanted to bring down a LOT of civilian infrastructure and they destroyed over a billion dollars worth of civilian housing. The most atrocious: they murdered fifty kids between ages one month and five years. For that alone, in my eyes they deserve the death penalty. This was clearly revenge for voting in Hamas; some of the top brass actually said it publicly before they were shut up. Israel, you have lost your moorings. You are no longer a civilized country.
Revenge was at the top of the priority, 10000 missiles fired at ISrael had nothing to do with it. As an Israeli I regret the loss of innocent lives. But mistakes are not war crimes, and if I was Hamas, I would stop putting my people at risk by pissing off my neighbor.
I heard many time in the army the phrase " A good Arab is a Dead Arab" this is the menatlity I was the execption.
I was in kfir, golani, magav and then yama...in army for 17 years....not once have i heard anything like this.... you are obviously lying, all i know is that anything that resemled any misconduct or unethical behavior was SEVERLY punished.... go spread your b.s elsewhere you are not a hero
I sincerely wish you long life and happiness; it must have been difficult for you when so many around you were happy to be the agents of misery and pain.
Of course not, IDF has been bombing civilians for ages now. What's out of ordinary?
That's the thing. There are times in which, in extreme situations, a nation must act for it's own survival, in order to defend it's own innocents. But the ability to just reach out and kill somebody should never be flaunted or encouraged. It's like a civilian brandishing a gun over here. It's something that shouldn't be legal. Only professionals with special training should have access to weapons. Enough with the stone throwing too. Parents should be told that they will be held responsible and arrested if any of their children are caught holding stones with the intent of unleashing them on anyone. That's enough. I will always think about the Palestinian Physician that lost his three daughters. It breaks my heart to think of it. I remember how he cried. I remember how he called for peace. That's the stuff the kids should be learning. Look. You've got Jewish Guys working as hitmen scaring and killing other Jews. That's like Al Capone Crap. That's got to stop too. No more of this killing crap. It should only be used in the most extreme situations. Otherwise people will think it's okay to kill anybody and nobody will be safe. Anywhere.
I think that is extreme violence and is justification for a defensive war. If there are (were) no rockets there would be no Cast Lead. And, there have been several hundred rockets since Cast Lead and rearmerment by hamas. They must want round 2?
israel never claimed it never made mistakes. it routinely issues statements of apology when it mistakenly kills civilians. the israeli argument is that its population and institutions have the political maturity to acknowledge errors. There have been countless israeli investigations, many of which issues sharp rebuke to political/military leaders. No one in israel is shocked when its leaders are held to account, its really business as usual. One must concede that its ironic that no one has held Hamas (and the PLO) for their involvement in targeting/killing civilians, which admittedly, were not errors, or even a matter of negligence.
Receiving a sharp rebuke does not count as being held to account when someone is killed. Be it one person or 21, you think someone has been held to account? The life of an Arab isn't worth much, I think that's part of the problem. This problem of accepting things that should not be so easily accepted is endemic in Israeli society , not particular to the IDF. Our army reflects the values of our society, we are all complicit in the deaths of these people. As long as we are in this on/off war with the Palestinians such things will continue to happen, war is funny that way. And our society's morals will continue to be degraded. The root of the problem is not to be found in one Givati colonel, it is in all of us.
The news in this article is sadly not news. War crimes have been committed - and continue unabated to this day - but that is not news in this surreal place called Israel. It's tantamount to reading the weather report. What is lacking here is imagination - a view of the future that is in stark contrast of the wretched past - yet everything falls on dogma and religious mythology - and such dark forces continue to pull Israel farther back in time - into the dark ages. There seems to be no understanding that the chain of human tragedies Israel has been responsible for will someday exact a price that would prove fatal to it's survival. You can't expect the moral universe to be as forgiving as the Palestinians have been so far. Somehow, someway, in some unknown time, this horror show has to end. Yet, decades later - the most creative people on earth - the Jews can't imagine a future without war and occupation. A very sad commentary.
Israel is not responsible for 5 arab armies attacking it. Israel is not responsiblre for hamas launching ten thousand rockets over 8 years. Always hamas and arabs causing teh problems and ISrael is left responding to it. if you dont want innocents to be killed then stop shooting your damn rockets at us. You stop shooting no one dies. You start shooting do not expect ISrael or any nation to sit back and take it without hitting back. hamas culture is a death culture let them die at someone elses hand. In teh mean time for every attack on ISrael a coresponding defence from Israel . Teqach the pali children not to hate and you just might find peace. Tdeach them to hate and you find they get killed Whose to blame then. Not israel
Civilians are what hamas targets, lock, stock and barrell. There will be no internal investigations, no Goldstones and continued rockets, all aimed at civilians. Hamas wanted that war and they got their war-Israel has zero to apologize for.
the world no longer feels for you guys . apartied racism , killing civilians ,bulldozing houses , evictions , land grabs , and building illegal walls . israelis have lost their souls
Hamas crumbled except for continuing to lash out at Israeli civilian targets whenever possible. The IDF, perhaps overestimating Hamas's ability to resist, took no chances with their own men's lives, and in doing so, killed far too many civilians and did far too much damage to civilian infrastructure. The refusal to allow Gazan civilians to evacuate into Israel was a crucial wrong move. As was the reliance on aerial bombs and rockets and artillery in tightly-packed civilian areas. The Israeli media acted as cheerleaders for the IDF, when in fact what they should have been doing is warning the IDF and the Israeli public how unnecessarily brutal Cast Lead was. The rest of the world saw. Israel should have realsied and done something about it FAR sooner. Particularly worrying are the suggestions of encouragement from rabbis, from briefings and from lax rule sof engagement for IDF soldiers to be reckless with civilian lives. The IDF has a lot of lessons to learn from Cast Lead. The worry is that it seems reluctant to do so, and if so, the next war will be even worse.
It wasn't finished!
indicates how many times Sullivan and the Haaretz editors keep refreshing their browsers to revote. Sounds like an Obama election.
The romans said the same after destroying the Temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 CE.
u denied them supplies to feed their people, yet u blame hamas for fighting for their rights, u are supposed to be the people of peace, what a load of crap, u r the farthest from the people of peace. u r the destroyers, it has been said not just by me and thousands of others but by God as well. and since u claim to be Gods chosen, i have to ask, which God do u worship? because from what i can see it is not the same God the rest of humanity believes in.
Just because your enemies use tactics doesn't mean you are justified to use the same. Would the allies be justified in exterminating Germans because of the holocaust. Would NATO be justified in extra-judicial killings in Afghanistan because of the Taliban? No, our ability to differentiate and take a moral stance is what justifies our actions to begin with.
That was the whole point of Goldstone's report... not only what we did to them, but what it was liable to do to ourselves...
After all, the govt that ordered the IDF to go Gang-Busters on Gaza without much concern for civilian casualties was also democratically elected. Does that make ALL Israelis fair game when it comes time to face justice upon the war criminals amongst them? I would suggest that by YOUR logic the answer is "Yes, all Israelis leaders are culpable for the war crimes of the IDF" and must stand trial for war crimes in Hague.
Your military are now mere sadistic killers, have been for ages.
Zionisms' goal is to achieve jewish majority in the "land of Israel".So the whole pls civilian population is the enemy that must be crushed kicked out to make room for" jewish home".
after all they are the "chosen"!
This has been the common thread among all IDF personnel who've come forward - anonymously and otherwise - to describe what they witnessed during Cast Lead...and some have even elaborated to the extent that its intention was made clear to them in no uncertain terms. And this incident is clearly an example of the results of those rules of engagement...which essentially amounted to a carte blanche.
This has been the common thread among all IDF personnel who've come forward - anonymously and otherwise - to describe what they witnessed during Cast Lead...and some have even elaborated to the extent that its intention was made clear to them in no uncertain terms. And this incident is clearly an example of the results of those rules of engagement...which essentially amounted to a carte blanche.
you are correct that several IDF personnel have made comments to that effect. to call it a "common thread" is kinda pushing it. Clearly you're not familiar with the concept of statistics; a few ppl making headlines can hardly be said to reflect the experience of hundreds
israel is hard hearted, cold and uncaring. They know what is going on there, but they shut their ears , their eyes, so that their hearts cannot feel the guilt, and can freely go on punishing the Palestinians in their imprisoned status even more day by day. Then they will tell the world that they are behaving humanely, while Hamas are terrorists.
humanitarians to make demands.?
Hamas does not claim to be the light unto nations or the "MOST MORAL ARMY ON THE PLANET". Capeeeeesh.
by Israel... but Israel itself has largely escaped adequate judgement, because of its vociferous self-justification, and complete rejection of Goldstone...
ever tried to compare yourself with real lights unto nations----eh psm --or real moral armies.
when Hamas successfully kills 1400 Israels in 3 weeks. 10 dead in less than 10 years. Absolutely wrong and disguting, but nowhere in Israel's league of carnage.
I think you are confused; victims does not usually investigate actions against the aggressor.
In fact, the Gaza war took place AFTER Israel withdrew its soldiers and civilians and gave those people the opportunity to build a society and lives for themselves free of any foreign intervention. And what happened? They immediately turned to firing thousands of rockets from their "unoccupied" land at Israeli communities along the border. That was the cause of the Gaza war. You can end all the occupations you want--it will never bring peace with these people, as recent history shows.
you must mean hamas strangulation of the hopes and dreams of the gazans living a peaceful and productive lives alongside their israeli neighbors
The terrorists of Hamas must end their military occupation of the civilians of Gaza and give them back their hope of liberty and freedom
There are no Jews in Gaza, and very few Christians now that Hamas has ordered them killed claiming they are "Zionist collaborators." And the delivery through Egypt yesterday of new cars for citizens of Gaza that allegedly are in poverty PROVES that there are no restrictions on commodities for Gaza. No matter how the Islamists of Haaretz spin it, Gaza is free!
Why?? So the Arabs can take over the rest of Israel, as they have always clearly stated?? Why, because they started Four Wars against Israel ?? Why, Because they have behaved so compassionately while brutal terror thugs destroyed thousands of families forever?? The teachings of the Imams that preach destruction must never be rewarded. The Jewish people have returned home, regardless what all of you think.
Uh oh! They did so already five years ago? Err, mmh, so why are Gazan's shooting on Israel? Oh, I see... "The occupation needs to end now!!!" "Free Gaza from Zionist occupation!!!" "Down with...!!!"... "The occupation needs to end now!!!" "The occupation needs to end now!!!" "The occupation needs to end now!!!" ...
Since then Hamas has brought death and destruction to Gaza.
Uh oh! They did so already five years ago? Err, mmh, so why are Gazan's shooting on Israel? Oh, I see... "The occupation needs to end now!!!" "Free Gaza from Zionist occupation!!!" "Down with...!!!"... "Free Gaza from Zionist occupation!!!" "Free Gaza from Zionist occupation!!!" "Free Gaza from Zionist occupation!!!"...
If Gaza is a free, sovereign nation, what is the blockade about?
To protect innocent people from the insanity that is radical Islam. WHY did Hamas fire 8000 unanswered rockets ?? All these casualties are the direct fault and responsibility of Hamas. They put the Gazans in direct harms way.
That would imply that Israel had to literally PAY for them, which is not the case. The U.S. simply "provides" them on account of U.S. taxpayers.
Civilian deaths are an unfortunate tragedy of any war. Imagine putting the RAF on trial for all the civilian deaths in the carpet bombing of Germany, or the US Gvt for the civilian deaths in dropping the bomb in Japan. If you cause a country to act in self defense, don't blame the defenders. Any investigation of the IDF brass is sorely misguided.
It was because of the horrors os WW2 that rules were laid down, no defense for attacking civilians from either side.Unlike most of you I heard and saw cast lead from a few kilometers away, it became apparent quickly that it was disproportionate.Goldstone was right.
but more importantly, who was retaliating during Cast Lead? Israel's side broke the cease-fire. Then, in response to Gazan retaliation, Israel mounted an ill-planned OFFENSE, not defense, that achieved none of its stated goals (its unstated goal of collective civilian punishment and terror, however, were achieved.) Also, having been to Hiroshima, I would wholeheartedly support investigating the civilian deaths of that misguided attack (which also failed in its state goal of destroying a strategic bridge in the city). How about instead of trying to justify the IDF's behavior by saying, "Everyone else is doing it," you start looking at everyone else's behavior and saying, "That's wrong, too."
The Germans had been carpet-bombing Britain, especially its capital city, London... the Japanese had perpetrated the decidedly unsportman-like attack on Pearl Harbor, seeking to cripple USA air-strengh...
The Gaza "war" was not a war - but a slaughter. Your example of the RAF and the bombing of Germany is also misguided. World War 2 was a real war between countries, armies, air force and navies. Gaza had no air force, no army, no navy and it's not a country. It's an open prison - a tiny strip of land used for a kosher turkey shoot by the IDF.
Mate, lets not go back and talk abt pre world war II war crimes to justify ur 'most moral army in the worlds' ethics. Its extremely arrogant of you to deny facts placed on the table. Despicable!
Compare Israel to a country that burned Japan to the ground and when it was defenseless dropped A-bombs on it to scare Russia. At a boy
..the civiliced world "invented" the laws of war to prevent civilian deaths. IDF clearely broke some of these laws during operation Cast Lead. It is sad to se someone trying to defend Israel by refering to the cruelties of WWII. Who would actually compare Israel to WWII standards in 2010 if the goal is to defend Israel and its actions? Seriously?
Since 1947 all nations who are signatories to the UN, its charter and related laws have sworn that this will never happen again. Both the slaughter of the Jews, Gypsies and other unfortunates as well as acts of mass civilian killing are clearly against international law. You cannot dredge up these previous acts of barbarity as the excuse for ruthless and illegal acts by the IDF in recent times. Just as there were Nuremberg trials, I await the day eagerly when Israel (and for that matter the US and UK) stands in the dock at the Hague and answers for its war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Edifice, because of world war II and the killing of milions of civilians, the world came up with Geneva Conventions. Ever heard of them?
This has absolutely, unequivocaly NOTHING to do with self-defense, ,my G-d,that word is becoming more hollow by the day!! It has to do with the fact that the IDF, as usual, does not give a damn about women children, the eldery, aka CIVILIANS and has no respect for the innocent or life for that matter. Differently said, it is the most IMmoral army in the world!!
While the fire-bombing of Dresden was undoubtedly a war crime as was the atomic bombs dropped on Japan, let's get a little perspective here. Those atrocities were carried out by nations fighting to end occupation and oppression. Israel's atrocities on the other hand equate with the German and Japanese atrocities and were carried out to maintain occupation and colonisation.
At the time, Olmert's response was, 'this is terrible, look what they made us do!' Just like a 5 year old who broke his sister's nose.
to equate total war, with a local skirmish, it just doesn't work I'm afraid.
Israel must be tried for its war crimes.
It's interesting you use the RAF carpet bombing of Germany as an example, since Harris et al planned the bombing campaign specifically to kill civilians, and it did little to harm the German war effort .
Poor judgement... let me tell you something that you probably don't know according to your comments: the rules of war have changed a lot since WWII. There is no excuse to justify that a house full of civilians (belonging to the same family just makes it worse) and already searched by IDF forces is struck by missiles just because a commander ignores warnings given by the IAF.
And few civilised individuals prefer to go back to pre-Geneva warfare, when things such as using nuclear weapons on civilian cities, or the holocaust, were a 'legtimate' aspect of warfare.
Wow! That comment speaks for itself.
Simply go to Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan! The Islamists traditionally use women and children as human shields for their murderers causing thousands of civilian deaths in the process as unfortunate "collateral damage." NATO itself has estimated the civilian casualties from such human shields to be in the thousands. Yet the US "Islamist ally in chief" Obama himself has stated clearly there will be no investigations and no blame assigned. What this does prove is that the morality of the IDF goes to an unfortunate extreme, whereas the Haaretz promoted Hamas looks forward to as many civilian casualties as possible
Israeli self defence vis s vis Palestenians is akin to saying that the elephant destroyed the ants nest because an ant "might' itch his trunk. Edifice, you call it war? Can you look in the eye and say it with a straight face? Say what exactly it was.. a massacre of helpless, traumatized people!
Israeli self defence vis s vis Palestenians is akin to saying that the elephant destroyed the ants nest because an ant "might' itch his trunk. Edifice, you call it war? Can you look in the eye and say it with a straight face? Say what exactly it was.. a massacre of helpless, traumatized people!
What followed after is purely Hamas responsibility be it ensuing war or use of own people as human shield instead of evacuate them from combat zone to the safety.But of course you needed them death so you can whine about Israeli disproportionate use of force and how deeply you are shocked by their deaths.Let's face it.You sacrificed their lives for PR purpose that's why they had to stay.And pray that Hamas fighters,often fighting in civilian clothes, go away before Israel locate them and retaliate. ...... Since you like Geneva convention: "Persons taking no active part in hostilities should be treated humanely"....(not as Hamas cannon fodder.)
The Islamist concept that for every Jew murdered by the Islamist terrorists, we can only attack one? Tell that to the NATO troops responding to the Islamist terrorists in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
You would be right if the civilians were isolated and the civilians deliberately targeted. But you who were only a few kilometres away should know that in Gaza the Palestinian fighters were among the civilians.
Try US bombing civilians in the name is killing Taliban officials or NATO bombing of civilians in the name of dealing with Serbs....
What followed after is purely Hamas responsibility be it ensuing war or use of own people as human shield instead of evacuate them from combat zone to the safety.But of course you needed them death so you can whine about Israeli disproportionate use of force and how deeply you are shocked by their deaths.Let's face it.You sacrificed their lives for PR purpose that's why they had to stay.And pray that Hamas fighters,often fighting in civilian clothes, go away before Israel locate them and retaliate. Since you like Geneva convention: "Persons taking no active part in hostilities should be treated humanely"....(not as Hamas cannon fodder.)
with all those pertro dollars you can buy lawyers who will argue black is white for you for as long as you pay them
but this is not something you want,eh?
or do you only want justice if the alleged criminals are jewish?
Bye bye Israel---you are on a self destruct plan. Well done bozo.
like nasrallah, meshal, ahmedinjad, ghadaffi etc to keep the israel and the world in check.
Thy never had any - just a self-serving claim - but actions speak louder than words.
their plan was to create a jewish state for only jewish people on arab land. the arabs are right to fight this creation that the chritsian west fights so hard to keep out of their land.
"...In his place I would have done the same." I find that perfectly believable.
It's only a way of getting finances appropriated and squandered instead of using money for your glorious campesinos ,workers and fishermen
...anything that is against Israel is "prefectly believable" for you. But then again,I've noticed that you have been visiting this site day in day out for several years.Why,if you hate the Jews and Israel?
After all the viscious and ugly slandering of poor Judge Goldstone...all these revelations are suddently coming to light. Using children as human shields, thefts of property, gunning down fleeing civilians on purpose, and now knowingly launching airstrikes where civilians have taken refuge. The only reason many of these things came to light is because of Goldstone--I think many people owe him an apology.
The same Goldstone that said he sent Black suspects to their deaths because he was following SA orders. Truly an honorable person...NOT!
After all the viscious and ugly slandering of poor Judge Goldstone...all these revelations are suddently coming to light. Using children as human shields, thefts of property, gunning down fleeing civilians on purpose, and now knowingly launching airstrikes where civilians have taken refuge. The only reason many of these things came to light is because of Goldstone--I think many people owe him an apology.
is a dirty,& messy business. Whoever you are just look into your own country's history of pillage,murder,rape & the bombings, & killings of untold millions of innocent lives.
Many of these things came to light because happened in Israel an not for Goldstone report.