IDF denies disciplining top officers over white phosphorous use in Gaza war

BJ: "However, based on past experience with photos the enemy has doctored, let`s just say the probability the odds are quite hight that this photo was also doctored, in other words, a fake just like you" You face an evidentiary shortfall, BEN. The doctoring of photographs is actually pretty easy to spot, if you care to take the time to look. After the IDF's singular success in finding one doctored photo it is beyond dispute that the IDF has a unit that does nothing OTHER than to peer loooong and hard at newswire photographs looking for doctored images. Including, without question, this one. No cries of outrage = no doctoring of the photo. No cries of outrage has come from anyone but you, BEN, and you are completely unable to substantiate your claim. Ergo this photo was not doctored.

However, based on past experience with photos the enemy has doctored, let's just say the probability the odds are quite hight that this photo was also doctored, in other words, a fake just like you I suggest you pay a liitle more attention to my post, and stop altering it to suit your devious pruposes "They also had vivid photos of plumes of snoke allegedly caused by Israeli airstrikes in Beirut Then the truth came out, the photos had been doctored using a Photoshop style software to obtain the desired effect

"Never no mind that 10,000 rockets were fired directly at Israeli civilian targets, that fact seems to elude your train of thoughts" But the thing is, those rockets haven't killed anyone in 8 years, and 1,400 Gazans were killed in two weeks... Anyway, I'll keep looking for your posts; as you know, I always enjoy reading them.

Riiiiiiiiiight. BJ: "It`s truly amazing, you`re an expert on a situation that you`ve never witnessed in person," I'm curious how you can square that statement with your insistence that the photo on the top of this article was faked. You were there when that photo was taken, were you?

Arrogant powers like UK and US, full of war crimes of any kind in Iraq, Afeghanistan, and noone deep investigation like Israel is asked to do.

CJK: "he did not suffice with making factual findings." Yeah, he did. He examined the facts, and he reported his finding based upon those facts. That's what a fact-finding-mission is i.e. it is not a mere compendium of EVIDENCE, instead being a statement of FACTS based upon that evidence. CJK: "such a sweeping conclusion about intentionality cannot be made without proof. it cannot be made by a fact finding mission." Of course it can. The fact-finding mission comes to conclusions based upon the evidence ("it was a crime!") and that is then sent to a court to determine if the evidence that was collected amounts to PROOF of guilt. In that respect Goldstone's findings are akin to a police brief that reads: "Joe Bloggs did it, and the evidence we have collected can prove it". Such a BRIEF doesn't "prove" guilt, but a prosecutor who gets that brief really does have a duty to take that case to court.

They also had vivid photos of plumes of snoke allegedly caused by Israeli airstrikes in Beirut Then the truth came out, the photos had been doctored using a Photoshop style software to obtain the desired effect It's truly amazing, you're an expert on a situation that you've never witnessed in person, all the while remaining in what you you allege is your home in Australia I recall that a while back we had a discussion concerning your non-existentmilitary experience Let's just say that your evaluation is equivalent to your military experience, not worth a plugged nickel

It's also a warcrime when our enemy designates our civilian town & villages as the target for their rockets No, it's not a war crime when the shells are intended to illuminate an area, the crime is tht Hamas likes to hide themselves wherever they have a civilian population If you want, just ask, I'll send you the Fahti Hamad video link for the umpteenth time

They also had what they said was proof of Israeli strikes against Beirut, lo and behold they photos were found to be altered, using Photoshop or similar software As you well know, Hamas prefers to hide among their civilian population, having the Chutzpah to brag about using their own people for Human Shields Never no mind that 10,000 rockets were fired directly at Israeli civilian targets, that fact seems to elude your train of thoughts I post when I feel like, unfortunately most of the people posting here have never been to where the action is and was, they're playing with the keyboard likes it's some sort of video game

Right, I read the article. Twice in fact. I actually did know about "Willy Pete" in Vietnam, too. But it has been declared a war crime to use it against civilians, hasn't it, and even you must admit that Israel wouldn't have attracted quite so much anger from the world community if it didn't use WP on a densely packed civilian community containing a large population of children. I know American tv screens did not show it but Europeans saw in full colour on their tvs what Israel was doing in Gaza and it was not a pretty sight. Why was America not allowed to see these same images I wonder? But I don't wonder, Ben, because I know why...

Ben, we have the proof--just look at the picture!--of Israel using WP against Gaza and even I know that is a war crime. Where have you been...you hardly ever post anymore, though I always search through to see if you have...

Here are a few details that refute your erroneous statement, read slowly and absorb http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus

It would really astonish me if you actually took some time to research what you're writing about, that seems to be beyond you, always latching on to the tail end of a conversation http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/the-fog-of-war-white-phosphorus-fallujah-and-some-burning-questions-515345.html You really should obtain a few facts and here are more of them, read slowly and try and absorb the details http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus

"Did you see UK or USA making such deep investigation? No, they are too arrogant to even admit their really war crimes" You don't see the UK or the USA using White Phosphorous on civilians, either...

"Faced with overwhelming enemy fire and wounded comrades" Israel contended with neither at the UN compound. What is more the IDF seem to have reluctantly recognised that, seeing as they reprimanded both officers. There were more deadly uses of this phosphorous which in one case burned a whole family to death. They have been ignored because they were not centered on a UN compound, but were none the less in highly populated urban areas.

Please allow me a small correction. Unintentionally committed crimes are called "manslaughter" and receive a reduction in their sentence say from 30 years to 20. The criminal DOES NOT GO FREE.

It is this: look at that photo on the top of the page. Doesn't look much like an attempt at a smoke-screen, PSM. It looks awfully like an attempt to use artillery as an incendiary weapon. You have your "experts", but isn't it such a pity that everyone else has the evidence of their own eyes, heh? How. Inconvenient. For. You.

WIKIPEDIA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War Professor Newton, expert in laws of armed conflict testifying in front of the committee, said that in an urban area, where potential perils are snipers, explosive devices and trip wires, one effective way to mask forces' movement is by white phosphorous. In certain cases, he added, such choice of means would be least harmful for civilian population, provided that the use of white phosphorous withstands the proportionality test. He also stressed that the white phosphorous munition is neither chemical nor incendiary weapon-Public hearings ? Geneva, Afternoon Session of 7 July 2009, UNHRC *ibid Colonel Lane, military expert testifying in front of the fact-finding mission in July 2009, told that white phosphorous is used for smoke generation to hide from the enemy. He stated that "the quality of smoke produced by white phosphorous is superb; if you want real smoke for real coverage, white phosphorus will give it to you".[ *A British intelligence officer who completed numerous combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan stated that the Israeli Army would have been negligent had it employed anything but white phosphorus to conceal its troop movements. The officer noted, "White phosphorous is used because it provides an instant smokescreen, other munitions can provide a smokescreen but the effect is not instant. Faced with overwhelming enemy fire and wounded comrades, every commander would choose to screen his men instantly, to do otherwise would be negligent."[138]

idf DENIES what israel says in part of its report to the u.n.? and this was supposedly based on internal idf investigations? lol...looks like someone forgot to brief someone on this little scam. it ALSO looks like absolutely nothing coming from any internal idf investigations can be considered reliable.

No Der, I have not read those. I suspect they detail American Killing of civilians which I would denounce. I believe ALL war criminals should be brought to justice regardless of nationality.

An Egyptian Jewish refugee studying with me at MIT described how the adult Jewish males (including high school students) were rounded up in Cairo and sent to a detention camp in 1967 for "spying for Israel" and causing the Arabs to lose the Six-Day War. His father and older brother were still in detention when nine Iraqi Jews were publicly hanged in Baghdad in Jan 1969. The semi-official Egyptian newspaper Al-Ahram ran a gruesome cartoon on Jan 31,1969 which we Xeroxed from microfilm at Harvard. The smiling Egyptian explains to the world (personified): "A lot of fuss over the hanging of nine Iraqi Jews. We still have a lot of them. We will hang them after the Third Conference to Promote Arab Victory.

only about 13% of the British mandate of Palestine the rest went to the Arabs. The truth hurts you too much.

idf DENIES what israel says in part of its report to the u.n.? and this was supposedly based on an internal idf investigations? lol...looks like someone forgot to brief someone on this little scam. it ALSO looks like absolutely nothing coming from any internal idf investigations can be considered reliable.

You must accept anything and everything that the Arabs can throw at you. You can retaliate, but you must not use any techniques or weapons that can inconvience, harm or kill. Why can't you understand this simple rule?

whats funny is that all these joo's claiming the pals were launching rockets into isrl as war crimes but always forget to mention how many times isrl broke teh cease fire before the pals started launching. but than of course we r never to hear any facts other than what isrl makes up. lets not forget that isrl has exclusive rights to self defense, and lets not forget exclusive rights to God. rolling my eyes at such arrogance. and u have to wonder why the world hates jews and isrl, u bring it on urselves. u make us want to hate u, and ur succeeding .

when our American talkbacker friends criticize Israel for defending itself, especially keeping in mind that the atom bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima killed about 100,000 people instantly and many more later. How many of those people were military targets? Talk about collateral damage: that was the mother of all collateral damage, not to mention just about the biggest war crime ever committed in history.

White Phosporous is used for illumination, to light up a dark battlefield. All armies use it. Its perfectly legal to use it that way. The Palestinans are asserting that it was used instead, as a direct weapon. But of course, so much nonsense has come out of the Palestinian arena that has proven to be fabricated, this must be taken with a grain of salt as well. Its so bad ,that if someone says "reliable Palestinian source", everyone in the room laughs.

They think throwing two officers to the wolves will settle the issue and we must NEVER bring it up again!

You can't simultaneously say 'see, we did discipline somebody,' and 'no, nobody was disciplined.' Internal political needs run into external diplomatic needs. It ain't purty...

The only other country i've in the 30 years or so with this kind if disparity and disagreement between goverenment and the military was Burma and look where they are now. Why is the tail wagging the dog on this one? This is worrying. Is this where Israel is heading?

"no other EU army or US dare use these weapons" - Marc This is not true. The particular 155mm Howitzer rounds used in Gaza are US manufactured. The M825A1 felt-wedge White Phosphorous shell is and has been used by the US. We used them to supply smoke screens and as anti-personnel incindiary round in Afghanistan and Iraq. We also use WP to mark targets for air strikes. Using WP on UN warehouses is a no-no.

actually, goldstone overstepped his already large mandate. he did not suffice with making factual findings. quite the contrary. he stated that the gaza operation was "a deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorise the civilian population." such a sweeping conclusion about intentionality cannot be made without proof. it cannot be made by a fact finding mission. it is simply a personal opinion.

Did you see UK or USA making such deep investigation? No, they are too arrogant to even admit their really war crimes.

I didn't spend too much time wondering about a Der Zweifler nick and the fact that you seem to justify my government's right to act in ways I consider misguided. Not too much, but just a little, because although I expected one, I see none. Methodological dualists are not a category I have met before, I confess (methodological duellists, though, I hear and see all the time). I have nothing against academics, often enjoy learning from them in fact. Condescension and instruction don't really coexist very well. Conversely, humility with a touch of humour are just the ticket. I suppose you'll see that remark as populist. It's also true.

#146 superdoodoo. Wish only that you were on the receiving end of what a white phosphorous bomb delivers. Then we could all observe you trying to explain the humaneness of the IDF when your mouth has been melted shut.

hank you need to broaden your vision to include at least 100 other countries ! or do you think israel is in the wrong because it is israel ??

Thank you, Mark of Lewiston for enlightening me. According to the gospels of Mark of L, I as a member of the Bar of the State of New York cannot criticize the Goldstone Report in any puplic op ed or Talkback. I cannot call Mark of L a nut job in an inciting manner. I cannot slander him by calling him a filthy Anti Semite. Perhaps I can if I leave out the word 'filthy'. According to the gospels of Mark of L, I and Dershowitz just lost our freedom of speech unless we surrender our licenses.

At least Israel is doing something weather it is to your satisfaction or not about this difficult and sensitive matter, unlike Turkey. As you may remember last year some mass graves were discovered in north Cyprus of Greek civilians and POWs who were executed point blank and buried. There are many more missing since 1974. I have not heard anything about an investigation of this atrocious crime by the Turkish military in Turkey. At least Israel is doing something. Iyi geceler Ihsan Bey.

... thousands of missiles sent to kill your civilians, even if you are Israeli. Provided you do not use any weapons that can cause hardships, injuries, or death to the folks shooting at you.

Marc,the reason that he IDF used this device is clearly given in this article.It's always best to read before commenting. You must be living a very sheltered life if you haven't noticed hat the US and EU armies dare to do a lot of thing when they fight wars.They aren't fighting too many urban land wars at the moment,so neither you nor I are in positions to say what they would do in a similar situation.I doubt that they'd just let themselves be sitting ducks. THREE CHEERS FOR ISRAEL!!!

No civilians died as a result of this limited phosphorous use.

You tought me something today. I learned that as member of the Bar of the State of New York I cannot publicly comment on the Goldstone Report. You informed me that I cannot post inciting comments on Talkback. I cannot say you are nuts. Wow. According to Mark, I lost my freedom of speech. I will have to surrender my license if I want to post here.

The IDF?s emphasis on compliance with the Law of Armed Conflict was also directly incorporated into the rules of engagement for the Gaza Operation. The operational order for the Operation in Gaza specifically stated that ?[a]ll IDF activities are subject to the principles and rules of international law.? These rules and principles were further detailed in the order, which emphasised four guiding principles that applied in an integrated and cumulative manner: military necessity, distinction, proportionality and humanity: 1,Military Necessity: ?An attack shall be permitted as long as it is necessary to achieve a military purpose in the course of the military campaign,? subject to the other principles and rules set forth. Israel failed this basic principle when Women carrying white flags were shot. 2,Distinction: ?Strikes shall be directed against military objectives and combatants only. It is absolutely prohibited to intentionally strike civilians or civilian objects (in contrast to incidental proportional harm).? Israel failed again when it attacked and bombed two hundred Police recruits. 3, Proportionality: ?A legitimate military objective may be attacked even if the strike would cause incidental harm to civilians or civilian objectives, provided that the expected harm to civilians or civilian objects, or a combination thereof, would not be excessive in relation to the military advantage anticipated.? Israel again failed when it murdered 21(or was it 26) members of the same family who they(IDF) had herded into a house and bombed it to hell.They must have known those people were there.The Goldstone report concluded that no miliatry advantage was gained through this act of pure barbarism. 4, Humanity: ?When legitimate military target is attacked, superfluous suffering to enemy combatants shall be avoided. In this context, only legal weapons, which were approved by the relevant authorities within the IDF, shall be employed.? In this case illegal weapons --IE White Phospherous was used in ammounts and in areas that are far and away from excusable. Funny thing is that it will be Israel,s own Rules of Engagement that will hang them.

Suggest you google---"Joyce on Zionism" And after you have consumed that here is a little diddy from Oscar---directed at people like you. ""Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative."

no other EU army or US dare use these weapons.

Any IDF types out there that can give a good translation of the Rules of Engagement for use of White Phosphorus? Because of the nature of the weapon, it's use against areas of large civilian population is banned, and the USA has ROE that prevent use in such instances. I do not recall seeing extensive use in built up areas by Israel until Summer Rains, but it seems to have become commonplace since. Have the ROE been changed? Or are they just not being observed?

Have I missed something?Wasn't there a hot war going on at the time of this incident? I cannot help but feel that it's the nature or war that people ARE in danger of getting injured. If Hamas didn't want to take the chance of their unfortunate subjects getting hurt,they shouldn't have provoked a war. I think that Hamas and the UN protest too much. THREE CHEERS FOR ISRAEL!!!

... "the truth is anything which I can convince a jury to believe". I think that Dershowitz has as little respect for the truth as he does justice.

They didn't deny investigations took place, only that the two unnamed officers were reprimanded. In fact if you read the article multiple investigations took place and are continuing to take place. I believe it was a mistake for Israel not be more public about this. At the end of the day Israel will be exonerated, you'll find that some crimes may have been committed by certain individuals exceeding their orders as happens in any and all wars. Unlike Hamas whose war crimes are government policy, with premeditation and complicity. Hamas cannot deny that it launched hundreds of rockets directed at civilian targets especially when NO military targets were present where the rockets and mortar fire landed. If you were truly offended, morally outraged at the alleged malice for Israels attacks then you would feel the same about Hamas, Your criticism only focuses on Israel while ignoring Hamas, with far worse and more blatant violations. Save the bias.

UK and US are two examples who does the contrary, with arrogance deny and none investigation in the matter so far.

Were the officers reprimanded or not? Israelis are now being told they were not. Yet Israel seems to have told the UN it has reprimanded the officers. And an IDF spokesman has confirmed to BBC that the officers will be reprimanded. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8490646.stm My hypothesis is that the Netanyahu government is talking out of both sides of it's mouth, one story to the world, and another for home consumption.

"IDF gave pre-warnings about its coming attacks and 15 minutes for the Gaza-civilians to seek cover in shelters, while the Sderot residents only had 15 secs" No-one was killed in Sderot and 1,400 were killed in Gaza. In two weeks, not eight years. Does that suggest something to you?

"even if Israel committed an act here or there...and in all wars individuals commit crimes...it will be hard to prove because of the numerous past lies told by the Pals" You think so? Don't forget how many countries saw on their television screens what Israel was doing. Or do you think the Palestinians used that White Phosphorous against themselves?

We clearly saw on TV phospohorus bombs landing on a civilian site. Why does the IDF persist in covering up all errors/misdemeanours ? The cover-up justs reduces their credibility to the the extent that one begins to doubt anything they say.

How could anyone in the world suggest that Israelis could do something bad? That's impossible! Jews are G-d's chosen people, we know that's true because we wrote it in a book about ourselves! The Holocaust proves that all actions taken by the IDF are good and just and any and all criticism of Israel is the rest of the world being anti-Semitic (remember, only Jews are Semites, the world's Arabs don't really count as people, so that's why Semite is strictly a Jewish title). Besides, everyone knows, using white phosphorous is totally acceptable (duh), especially in a ghetto of your own making. If we cared about those "people" we wouldn't have shoved them all in one giant pigpen anyway, right?

But how different their works from your posts! How different!

Suggest you research the changes in warfare rules that were made after WWII because of the very criminal acts that were committed. You believe that only indiscriminate killing of the enemy, military personnel or civilians, is the only way to "win"

Why does the Israeli government insist in taking actions that will eventually lead to de demise of Israel? Does it believe that the rest of the world is dumb? 1° it invades Gaza. 2° IT kills over 1000 civilians irresponsibly 3° It uses white phosphorous 4° It has the criminals, the army, investigate whether any violations of U.N. requirements were committed. Since when do the accused criminals lead the investigation to see if any crimes were committed? 5° It denies all charges made by all sides. Every time the Israeli government does that it makes more enemies. Soon, within the next 20 years, Israel will be totally ostrasized. As an American who once was pro-Israel, I consider that the USA should not help Israel in any way. Who wants to be associated to countries that repeatedly commit crimes against humanity ???

By 1948 when Israel became independent, the Jewish National Foundation (JNF), founded sometime in the 1880s for this very purpose, had bought over 70% of the land from land-owners, who lived in other countries like Turkey, Egypt and today: Lebanon. There never has been a Palestinian state, the Arabs have owned. The land was occupied by the Turks for 600 years after the Crusaders* occupation till 1917. Israel has been occupied over 1300 years and still 90% of it, is occupied by the Arabs, for Israel is situated only on 10% of THE original "Palestine".

People become refugees for different reasons: some voluntarily (like Cubans in USA) and some by force (like Germans from Sudetenland). The question is not "why they became refugees?". The question is "why they still remain refugees, 65 years later, while living under authority of their Palestinian brothers?"

"Some miljons have been killed in the war between Irak and Ira." Relevance? " In Syria there was 70 thousends killed. " Relevance? "Hussein killed i n two days 17 000 of thhe palestiniens when Black September" You beleive Arafat when you want to? "The IDF is not even near to these amounts beginning from 1948." Er....checked those sums have you?

When Gaza was under Israeli administration, the Israelis built bomb-shelters to the Gazans. Hamas however has taken over them. In spite of the millions the intl.community has showered the Pals with since 1993, they have not developped any national security measures to protect their population with, for such incidents as wars. BUT in every Gazan house and ap.building, private families have underground tunnels for smuggling goods and weapons through. So the underground tunnel-web is extensive. Hereby the Gazans could have taken cover in these tunnels, but the Hamas militants forced them onto the roof-tops during Israeli air-raids. Many times intended air-raids were aborted thereof.

Perhaps to Denmark?

The Israeli report seeks to make the case that Israel?s investigative system is rigorous and up to international standards. It blames Hamas for a ?deliberate strategy . . . to blend in with the civilian population? and says the Israeli military made ?strenuous efforts? to minimise harm to civilians. It says 150 incidents have been or are being investigated, of which 36 have been referred for criminal investigation. But apart from the soldier jailed for ?looting?, there have been no criminal charges. Some incidents were detailed. Israel defended its attack on the al-Badr flour mill in northern Gaza. The Goldstone report concluded this was a ?grave breach? of the fourth Geneva convention and a possible war crime. However, the Israeli report admits the building was hit by tank shells but denies it was hit by an air strike, even though Judge Goldstone found that it was. The Israeli report found no need for a criminal investigation but admitted it ?could not conclusively determine? whether the building was ever used by Hamas fighters. Israel defended its use of white phosphorus and found ?no basis? to launch criminal investigations over the shelling of UN buildings and staff. ? ( Guardian service)

when you actually have taken part in any real battle labarse and like most of the cynical posters here you will understand that doubts and hesitation are the way you and your comrades get killed ! the games of kneecapping and bombs in waste bins are left to the irish heroes of civilllian targetting !

Despite overwhelming evidence which anyone can see, Holocaust deniers depend upon cavils and quibbles to explain away what happened. They have an emotional need to deny what happened based in their bigotry. As no amount of evidence will sway them, no amount of argument will either. The cavils and quibbles of the Cast Lead Deniers will not fall to evidence which was before their eyes repeatedly during the operation. Nor will they abandon their pathetic attempts to deflect attention from the obvious. One need only compare Operation Defensive Shield, the Battle of Jenin to Cast Lead to see just how drastically the IDF had altered it's strategy and tactics over the 6 years between the operations.

Hamas says its missiles were fired at "military targets" but fell on civilian ones by mistake? *000 missiles? On Sdarot? No bases there. Moreover, Hamas refuses to launch any further investigations. So who is the UN going to condemn forlack of cooperation and/or for war crimes? You bet it's not Hamas. Double standards for Israel and for all the rest of the world - you can call it "anti-Zionism"; I prefer calling it "Jew-hatred". There, I didn't use the imprecise term "anti-Semitism". Didn't want any Arabs to claim they are Semites too.

in 1947 the jews were 20% of the populoation and owned only 7% of the land....but you knew that didn't you liar? and in 1948 they owned 52% of the land....who stole from whom liar?

zionist and left on their own because they believed in zionism? how many from which state were actually kicked out? many states did not allow jews to leave while egypt kicked out all theirs after the 'lavon affair'....so give me some proof

The report suggests that the 2 officers were disciplined for authorising the use of artillery shells where they might endanger civilians, but gives a link to a part of a previous report that dealt with the use white phosphorous smoke-screen munitions. These are allowed by international in the circumstances described, but authority for their use in a built-up area had been denied by then by the CoS because of international controversy over any use of white phosphorous. The lack of clarity makes it seem like Israel did something wrong when closer look makes it clear that the two officers were only guilty of breaching the CoS's ammended orders, not of breaching any international law.

no matter what religion you claim to be..a hypocrit and cry baby

The IDF has claimed no such investigation/trial took place. Care to expalin how that might come about. Is not one party economical with the truth add trying to hide something---gee I wonder what.

Israel,s defense. They claim no such investigation took place??? Care to explain ???. Why the GOI found two culprits---tried them in abstensia and then found them guilty. And all the while the defendants were personna non gratis at this trial???. Oh I get it---they forgot these two defendants were two of their own guys and not Palestinians. And you defend this state run by jokers.Bad jokers. Do take your time.

Haaretz: "the government said that a brigadier general and ..[a].. colonel endangered human life during by firing white phosphorous munitions in the direction of a compound run by UNRWA..." The MFA report: "..a Brigadier General and a Colonel had authorized the firing of explosive shells which landed in a populated area, in violation of IDF orders limiting the use of artillery fire near populated areas". In another incident: "IDF forces fired several artillery shells in violation of the rules of engagement prohibiting use of such artillery near populated areas". Indeed, as IDF is quoted in the same Haaretz article, no mention of WP in this case. Can't understand why Haaretz said that the Israeli report to the UN mentioned WP in these cases. The only mention of WP in the report is "..the Military Advocate General concluded that the use of this weapon [WP] in the operation was consistent with Israel’s obligations under international law."

When is Israel going to stop trying to appear to honor the double standard their enemies have set for them. It doesn't matter what Israel does, they will accuse Israel of the opposite. The only thing Israel has to say is that any code of restraint regarding Geneva convention behavior does not apply to the primitive Jihad Palestinians who want to steal land they never owned, and kill any Jews they missed with their 10,000 rocket launches.

"With the conclusion of Operation Cast Lead, IDF Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi ordered the convening of five special investigative committees each headed by an officer with the rank of colonel to examine some of the serious allegations leveled against the army" With the IDF top brass investigating IDF actions little wonder that we remain convinced that we have the 'most moral army in the world'. How could it be otherwise when we cover our tracks consistently in this manner?

"UNWRA is the main culprit" - Wrong. They may be Culprit No. 2 but Culprit No. 1 are the Arab states that refused to absorb the "refugees" and kept them in camps for political purposes. Well, it worked. This is unlike the Isreali faux pas of actually accepting their Jewish bretheren, absorbing the Jews that were kicked out of Arab countries after the War of Independance: more Jews were kicked out of Arab countries than the number of Arab "refugees".

I'm pretty certain the people of gaza knew full well what hamas stood for when they elected them. If israel played by arab rules, gaza would be a parking lot. All of the jew haters here really ought to consider that...the real crime here is that the gazans, after being given back the territory outright, not only did nothing to build a life of decency, they did everything to usher in the next round of terror and suffering for everyone involved. To all the jew haters who LOVE to come to haaretz, go cry in publications in chechnya, russia, sri lanka, sudan, darfur, yugoslavia, beslan..and on and on, all of which were FAR GREATER TRADGEDIES than what happened in gaza. Israel was humane and merciful. The hypocracy here is nothing short of pure jew hate.

The IDF says it was New Year Fire Work celebration!

Please indicate using a map just where all these shelters are---enough to house some 1 million plus people. Bdsides if you ahe read the report yopu would knowm that the commission did not have too many congratulatory comments on Israel,s idea of Warnings. Go read the report---or would that muck up your agenda. As to Israel living in peace---aha--while it stole Palestinian land for over 60 yeras. Some peaceful Neighbour---yep sure is.

Targetting civilians -that's why the Hamas is the terrorist organisation.Knowing that there are civilians behind the terrorists and still using methods that may kill people -still after the war is over (clusters in Lebanon)- what's the difference which make these things acceptable

As I suspected the false charges brought against Israel were based on Palestinian reports or press reports, both bias and untrustworthy. When will people learn that Palestinian testimony simply cannot be trusted. Sadly, the Pals have engaged in lies, fabrication, exaggeration, lying through omission(commonly referred to as Pallywood) on so many occasions it calls into question all testimony from Palestinian sources. Like the boy who cried wolf, even if Israel committed an act here or there...and in all wars individuals commit crimes...it will be hard to prove because of the numerous past lies told by the Pals. This is where the Palestinian government (with a complicit media and Pal civilian) policy of lying to gain undeserved world sympathy, comes back to haunt the Pals.

16:23 Italy PM Berlusconi: I envision Israel as member of EU (Haaretz) what a funny envision by zionist mason, what i envision is no eu nor israhell. only caves. it will be hard to dictate eu out of caves.

When is Israel going to do the right thing? This is just another example of Israel showing that it doesn't want peace, and doesn't want to solve the problem it has. I for one am sick and tired of hearing about Israel's land grabs and over doing actions like the phosphorus.

As an American, I asked an American poster if he had read Chris Hedges on deliberate American attacks on civilians in Iraq. So? Did I in any way defend Gaza? I do not see anything in your quotation indicating Hedges changed his mind about those American attacks in Iraq. Do you?

Dont let cj kohn take all the glory. And there are others who will go to any lenghts to justify the unjustifiable. I must admit though that Kohn would have fitted in well in a former regime in the state she lives in.

acc. to it usage of phosphor is fully permissable. It illuminates military targets. Its affects on human body are nasty though. Had the Gazans chosen to follow the orders given to them by the IDF to protect themelves instead of welcoming martyrdom, to which Hamas urged them to, the number of casualties *d have been much, much lower. Like land-mines I hope phosphor will become one of the internationally banned items.

"The Israeli decision to rein death and destruction on Gaza, to use lethal weapons of the moden battlefield on a largely defenseless civilian population, is the final phase in a decades long campaign to ethnically cleanse Palestinians". Chris Hedges: Gaza - A Call to Act (From January of 2009) http://www.commondreams.org/video/2009/12/28

Goebbels had free speech. Most of us agree that was not necessarily a good thing.

She was caught out on here the other day by her friend Stephen of Geneve. He questioned on the basis of her comments on Goldstone whether she had read the report. He said he doubted she had. So did I when I read her response to Stephen. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1144596.html She claimed that the report had disregarded Hamas crimes. She stated: "according to goldstone, there were no hamas combatants in gaza" This despite dozens of pages detailing possible Hamas crimes. She went on to say: "the report excludes and denies all facts that might be expultaroty for israel. the warnings by phone or leaflets are irrelevant" I pointed out that she should: Refer to page 13 section 5. and between pages 152 and 162 are numerous acknowledgments and details re leaflets phones etc. She then claimed: "the booby trapped houses are also irrelevant" I then referred her to page 141 of the report: "The Mission notes that the existence of booby-trapped houses is mentioned in testimonies of Israeli soldiers ..." So in sum, it seemed that as of last week she had not read the report very thoroughly at any rate. Since then she may have made an attempt to study it. I am still not convinced though, seeing her crass resort to tautologies like this: "the entire report is shoddy in its entirety" (!!! LOL). cipora #105

If someone was launching hand held rockets in my community I would hope that someone would take the initiative and do something about what was going on like these two men who are being used as escape goats. Folks lets get real if someone is shooting at you you will try to stop them. END OF DISCUSSION!!

What are you talking about now? My emphasis has always been on a critique of the positivist methodology of social science, and I view its claims that the predictive model of science that arose in the natural sciences applies to those sciences which study cultural, social, political, and economic events as misguided. My intellectual heroes are antipositivists (methodological dualists) like Max Weber, who emphasized the uniqueness and so UNPREDICTABILITY of each cultural world. But you would rather make some broad attack on academics and save yourself the time of actually learning anything.

From the way you manage to deny wrong-doing by Israel, I knew you have no shame. However, as a matter of curiosity, how do you manage to deny wrong-doing the IDF has agreed did happen?

First complete denials, then conditional denials, then perhaps no denial at all about phosphorous use. And if you doubt the changing testimony go back and review accounts. The Israeli government apparently places little stock in the need for accuracy in reporting. Ah, they will say, but other countries lie. So that makes it proper? Give me a break.

UNWRA exists, its functionaries get salaries and steal money only as long as there are Palestinian refugees. For that reason they work hard to keep them in refugee camps. Since Palestinians became refugees many millions of others (Cubans, South Vietnamese, Germans, French from Algeria, etc) also suffered the same fate (including millions of Jews from Gush Etzion, Jerusalem, and countries like Iraq, Lybia, USSR, Poland, etc) but of all people only one group still lives on UN charities. You may argue who was responsible that Palestinians became refugees but there is no argument who is responsible that they remain refugees 70 years later: UNWRA is a main culprit.

like Sderot, is a warcrime that breaks against the intl.law. Hamas did just that for 8 years!!!! Israel has therefore the right to defend herself militarily acc. to the Article 51. Isn*t this arguing absurd considering that it was Hamas, who was digging blood from its own nostrils by delibarately provocing a state living in peace to act in defence of her own CIVILIAN population under Hamas*s hostile aggression? THIS FACT seems to have totally been forgotten in this forum. The aggressor was no innocent "victim", they knew darn well what they were doing for 8 long years. Actions bear consequences for which Hamas ALONE is responsible for. This is the lesson Hamas and its defenders have to learn. In a retaliation all means under provoked aggression are allowed, bc the intention is to permanently stop the aggression. Besides: the IDF gave pre-warnings about its coming attacks and 15 minutes for the Gaza-civilians to seek cover in shelters, while the Sderot residents only had 15 secs.

write: 'goldstone violates the law by assuming intentionality. ' What complete tosh Cipora. It is clear you have not read or understood Goldstone. His inquiry was to establish whether there was a prima facie case to answer. Where the evidence pointed to this being the case, it needed to go to an independent inquiry. His commission was not a court and he did not hold a trial. Ref your 'intentionality', it would be rather hard to kill 1,1000 non-combatant civilians 'unintentionally' or 'unintentionally' use white phosphorus in a way that contributed to doing so. Nobody is falling for that bunch of weasel-words from war criminals and their counsel.

has acted in a responsible way in investigating allegations of war crimes has seriously backfired. By admitting these two officers overstepped their authority in the use of White Phosporous the IDF is admitting that the use if White Phosphorous during Operation Livni and Barak's re-election was probably on the cusps of legality. Looks like these two officers have been offered up as sacrificial lambs. As there is enough evidence to prove that the use of white phosporous by Israel during operation Livni and Barak's re-election was in fact a war crime. Interesting times. then the denial.

Dershowitz has always had that double-standard and he is ofcourse a lawyer and its their job to do those kinds of things. I hope Cippie responds because sometimes she doesn't.

CJK: "do you disagree that in order to prove that a crime occurred, intentionality must be proven?" And that is established in a courtroom, before a judge, under oath. You know, a judicial inquiry, which will then recommend wether any witness should be sent to a criminal court. You know, the very procedure that everyone else but Israel is demanding. CJK: "have you even read the goldstone report? " Yes, and it cleary calls for an Israeli judicial inquiry to decide wether there is enough evidence of intentionality to send anyone to a criminal court. Seem a pretty sensible suggestion to me.... CJK: "i have more faith in the military courts, whose decisions can be appealed to the high court, than in any goldstone report." !!!! There hasn't BEEN any "military courts" appointed, Cipora, for the simple reason that the "military" refuses to even consider the possibility of any "criminality". It simply clamps its hands over its ears....

sorry to spoil the glee of the anti-Israel chanters here but the government report has not said it was wrong to use white phosphorous, but that the men concerned issued an order for use of artillery on Jan 15 that was unauthorized. This was probably because the army had decided by jan 7 to stop using it to avoid bad PR, not because it was illegal. The fighting was as ever a case of Hamas using a civilian site, here the UN compound, to fire anti-tank missiles against exposed IDF troops, and the commanders used the smokescreen to protect their men, who they considered more important than bad PR.

Everytime I read your responses I realize more and more the lengths you go through to defend your 'kind' but not really showing any kind of morality to what happens to the Pals.. Basically in your head EVERY Israeli is a rightous-angel unless they critisize Israel then they are self-hating Jews. No Israeli (except Arabs) is capable of inflicting terror but are always victims of terror. If some legal aspect is Pro-Israeli then you shove it ppl's faces but when it's Pro-Pals then you say it is bias, filled with Jew-hatred, and irrelevant. What a world where everything is sooo conveniently your way. In fact I think that you critisized every single race but your own. Americans, Europeans, Asians, Arabs..... are all bigots in your book and Israelis never ever committed a crime, they never did anything unjustified. Even an Al-Quada jihadist is not that disciplined in denial and blindness. I advise you to travel a little and meet ppl around the world and TALK to them. Expand your horizons!

If Americans are welcome to post on an Israeli website, as you are, an Israeli fool posting from Israel surely has the right to do so too. As for mindless clichés, your parrying of hope-driven quests for new answers with encyclopedic thwacks on the head smacks of one too. You will not deny that history is interesting largely because of turns of event that academe was unable to predict and thus to field. That demands from academe just a touch of modesty. (Should have told you to duck - that was another mindless cliché, right?)

As always, the only people that finish in jail or sentenced in the IDF are those who refuse to commit war crimes, all the others will be whitewashed, unless for petty wrongdoings, I guess that when you killed hundreds of civilians stealing a credit card is relevant. I also dunno how can Alan Dershowitz still be labeled as pro-israel, this is the kind of extreme-right pathetic tool who created more resentment against Israel and antisemitism than any so-called "self-hating jew"/ "traitor", etc.

CJK: "there is no doubt that dershowitz has pointed to one of the most dangerous aspects of the goldstone report, namely, the lack of proof of intentionality." The. Lack. Of. Proof. Of. Intentionality. !!!!! Goldstone was commissioned to head a Fact Finding Mission, not a judicial inquiry. He therefore was not commissioned to find "proof", but to report on the "evidence" that he found. The facts that he uncovered led him to conclude that there was EVIDENCE of intentionality, and it was *at* *that* *point* that he insisted that Israel appoint a judicial inquiry to investigate that evidence. Here, I'll spell it out: Goldstone is calling for an Israeli judicial inquiry to determine wether or not there is "proof of intentionality", because he has found what he claims is "evidence of intentionality". Dershowitz certainly knows about that distinction, but he is too venal to admit it. What's your excuse?

Onimo you clearly cannot see. Look at the photo at the top of the article. The shells bursting are US manufactured M825A1 White Phosphorous. The streaks are caused by the 116 felt wedges impregnated with white phosphorous. The fall in an elliptical pattern over an area. Those felt wedges burn for 5-15 minutes and set fires, create smoke, and when they hit a person they burn fiercely being fueled by the water in the human body. What do you know?

"WHAT IS NOT A WAR CRIME?" - Victor Use of WP in open terrain or orchards, as it was used early in Cast Lead is not a war crime. It has never been considered a war crime. Use of WP against built-up areas with large civilian populations is considered a War Crime. Use it to provide cover, mark enemy positions, or as anti-personnel incendiary against enemy troops in open or wooded country is perfectly legal. Use it to cause hideous maiming injuries to civilians or burn their homes down is a crime. Firing at the known UN warehouses in Gaza was clearly a war crime. Firing at UN schools and shelters was clearly a war crime. Firing it at Gaza City was also a war crime and crime against humanity. Is the clear enough?

Now the IDF is denying the disciplining. So Israel has lied in it's rebuttal of the Goldstone report? Interesting

Please, we have enough fake populism here in America right now, characterized more by nativism than native common sense, I'm afraid, without more pseudo-populist babble and mindless cliches from you on an Israeli web site.

"it is a very shoddy peace of work," As is most of CJK-signed "investigative journalism" (including cute Freudian-slip - see above - or spooneristic spellings when CJK's not copy/pasting the work of others). Phosphorus bombs on Gazan civilians, anno 2009. Very simple. Don't need pompous 6-syllable concepts to qualify that. "i have more faith in the military courts" Such faith in auto-medication is touching but daft. If not for the Goldstone Report, phosphorusGaza2009 would never even have reached the military courts, never mind the "high court".

BBC 18 April 2003 "Jenin Camp 'Horrific beyond belief'" "Horrific beyond belief." "It is totally destroyed, it looks like an earthquake hit it." "I am watching tow brothers pull their father from the ruins, the stench of death is horrible. We are seeing a 12 year old boy being dug out, totally burned." "It is totally unacceptable that the government of Israel for 11 days did not allow search and rescue teams to come." Eye witness account given by Mr Roed-Larson the then UN Special Co-ordinator for the occupied territories, was visiting the Camp with Red Cross and UN workers. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1937387.stm Are you sure you are not working for the Israeli hasbara crowd, Mark?

It appears the man who defended O.J. Simpson will go to any length for his current celebrity client, the State of Israel. "Dershowitz calls Goldstone a traitor to the Jewish people." Haaretz. In his memoir The Best Defense, Dershowitz noted that "almost all of my clients have been guilty." Nothings changed then.

and has read Khalidi and Morris. He's also read law. That gives him the right to come down like a ton of bricks on anyone whose native common sense trumps walls full of academic diplomas. Shame brainboxes so often disappoint in this way. To doubt is to question, to hesitate, to search for deeper, less obvious answers. But what's in a name?

I don't know whether the IDF and Israel are guilty or not, but you have to say this is like two criminal suspects hauled in for separate interrigation and coming up with different stories. One suspect, sweating, says 'well maybe the other guy did a few of these cimes', to which the other suspect, also sweating, says 'No I didn't, what's he blaming me for?! It was his fault. he did it.'. Well I guess this farce finally puts paid to any idea that Israel and the IDF are capable of investigating Cast Lead properly themselves. Time for a proper war crimes investigation by an international body then.

....big Hamas commando center, because the smoke of white phosphorus, that we all saw on our TV screens, was all over Gaza-City.

Next we will be told the whole operation was staged by ' Pallywood'... EVERYONE has seen the footage and now the buck is being passed...

Grabbing to sacrificial lambs(excuse the analogy)and throwing them to the wolves is hardly likely to go down well with the Israeli public---or maybe I misjudge and they just want Goldstone to go away . The pathetic criminals that run Israel know no bounds in immorality or dishonour. Carry out an independent investigation and be done with it. You can no longer claim Israel comitted no crimes. You closed off that avenue of escape.

"IDF denies government report it used phosphorous during Gaza war (Haaretz)"

as for universal law, it is not part of the goldstone report. indeed, the lack of universality and equality under the law are a hallmark of the goldstone report. the total lack of edherence to the norms of rules of evidence are also glaring. the many internal contradictions are also jarring. as i said, the entire report is shoddy in its entirety. were there some truth in the report, it would be sullied for that reason alone.

"Its much easier to repeat a few slogans than analyse facts isnt it?"psm aka v Hardman Thats a laugh coming from you mr sloganeer. Now on to serious business---that of Israel;,s planned use of violence against civillians to "Teach them a lesson". "The IDF?s emphasis on compliance with the Law of Armed Conflict was also directly incorporated into the rules of engagement for the Gaza Operation. The operational order for the Operation in Gaza specifically stated that ?[a]ll IDF activities are subject to the principles and rules of international law.? These rules and principles were further detailed in the order, which emphasised four guiding principles that applied in an integrated and cumulative manner: military necessity, distinction, proportionality and humanity: 1,Military Necessity: ?An attack shall be permitted as long as it is necessary to achieve a military purpose in the course of the military campaign,? subject to the other principles and rules set forth. Israel failed this basic principle when Women carrying white flags were shot. 2,Distinction: ?Strikes shall be directed against military objectives and combatants only. It is absolutely prohibited to intentionally strike civilians or civilian objects (in contrast to incidental proportional harm).? Israel failed again when it attacked and bombed two hundred Police recruits. 3, Proportionality: ?A legitimate military objective may be attacked even if the strike would cause incidental harm to civilians or civilian objectives, provided that the expected harm to civilians or civilian objects, or a combination thereof, would not be excessive in relation to the military advantage anticipated.? Israel again failed when it murdered 21(or was it 26) members of the same family who they(IDF) had herded into a house and bombed it to hell.They must have known those people were there.The Goldstone report concluded that no miliatry advantage was gained through this act of pure barbarism. 4, Humanity: ?When legitimate military target is attacked, superfluous suffering to enemy combatants shall be avoided. In this context, only legal weapons, which were approved by the relevant authorities within the IDF, shall be employed.? In this case illegal weapons --IE White Phospherous was used in ammounts and in areas that are far and away from excusable.

these two high ranking officers, one a brig. general in charge of a gaza division, and the other a colonel commander of a givati brigade, the will not satisfy the bloodlust of the average israel hater. well, they will have to wait till all of the investigations are completed.

Have you read Collateral Damage: America's War Against Iraqi Civilians, by Chris Hedges and Laila Al-Arian?

... it is clear that he agonized about every enunciation, all the more so because he is Jewish... ... but justice is universal, for both Pals and Jews... ... altho' it is a long time since the Pals have known justice from Israel...

So 2 pawns are being sacrificed. What about the responsible ones, what about G.Ashkenazy, Barak, Netanyahu, what about the supporters in the U.S., who sent 15 billion US tax $ every year to finance the Israeli terrorism? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HVa47DvwC0

No Pamela, what makes it a war crime is when the harming of civilians is deliberate.

Let me make it clear to you here that the Pals are and have been fighting GUERILLA WAR against Israel. Suicide bombers are such guerilla warriors. The other name for it is terrorism. Hamas*s warring in a direct confrontation battle, like the Cast Lead, is insidious and they have their own set of warlaws like for ex.: 1)not to wear uniforms in order to be visibly recognizable for militants, WHICH THE INTL.LAW REQUIRES! Hereby it is insane to blame Israelis for not seeing the difference betw. a militant in civilian clothing and an actual civilian. Hamas doesn*t seem to care, if true civilians get killed. BY WEARING UNIFORMS THEY*D PROTECT THEM! 2)Using schools, hospitals, mosques to fire rockets and guns from, Hamas turns public civilian buildings into millitary targets purposefully. The Goldstone report must be weighed against the Hamas fighters* manner of warring and the only logical way it leaves for Israel to respond to it.

If it is a war crime deliver them to the Hague for trial!

do you disagree that in order to prove that a crime occurred, intentionality must be proven? have you even read the goldstone report? i have read it twice. it is a very shoddy peace of work, to put it mildly. of course, it is possible that some individuals had engaged in intentional crimes against civilians. every such proven case needs to be punished. i have more faith in the military courts, whose decisions can be appealed to the high court, than in any goldstone report. by the way who am i representing?--just curious.

Goldstone has made that perfectly clear. Though not everyone has bothered to read his report. That the proposed operation would be of a punitive and collective nature was known well in advance by those who cared to take note of the Israeli threats. "Major-General Gadi Eisenkot warned that the tactic of a disproportional attack like the one in the Dahiya (the Israeli attack on Hezbollah's stronghold in Beirut during the Second Lebanon War) would now be carried out everywhere". "Two of Israel's deputy prime ministers, Eli Yishai and Haim Ramon, had threatened to destroy thousands of houses in response to the rocket fire." Both are prima facie evidence for war crimes. That the disproportionate and indiscriminate attacks were premeditated by senior Israeli political and military figures. Both the above were presented by Goldstone in his report. Both were re iterated in Goldstones debate with former Israeli ambassador to the UN and arch apologist Dore Gold last June. As for the phosphorous. It was clearly used in urban areas as seen on worldwide television news that Israel was unable to restrict[hence pictures of screaming children in Gaza hospitals immediately after the phosphorous attacks].

modified in the light of WW2. The laws specifically intended to prevent the abuses by Nazi Germany are now an inconvenience for Israel and the US! In actual fact, the Germans lost that war on the Russian front. No amount of wide scale bombing of civilian centres in Germany made a difference between victory and defeat. Hence your assessment that such collective actions were required to defeat Germany is refuted by historical record. Something you know little of.

Let's hope the truth about this comes out. It could be that many members of the IDF are imbued with an attitude problem towards Palestians in general, not only Hamas-combattants.

That the proposed operation would be of a punitive and collective nature was known well in advance by those who cared to listen. "Major-General Gadi Eisenkot warned that the tactic of a disproportional attack like the one in the Dahiya (the Israeli attack on Hezbollah's stronghold in Beirut during the Second Lebanon War) would now be carried out everywhere". "Two of Israel's deputy prime ministers, Eli Yishai and Haim Ramon, had threatened to destroy thousands of houses in response to the rocket fire." Both are prima facie evidence for war crimes. That the disproportionate and indiscriminate attacks were premeditated by senior Israeli political and military figures. Both the above were presented by Goldstone in his report. Both were re iterated in Goldstones debate with former Israeli ambassador to the UN and arch apologist Dore Gold last June. As for the phosphorous. It was clearly used in urban areas as seen on worldwide television news that Israel was unable to restrict[hence pictures of screaming children in Gaza hospitals immediately after the phosphorous attacks].

Clearly WP munitions were use Clearly they were used over civilian populated areas Clearly the IDf knew these areas were civilian populated and knew civilians were likely to be injured due to the use of WP munitions. First they deny, then they try to justify, now they offer sacrificial lambs.

What course did you take? I am a licensed attorney, and in law school, like every American law student, I was required to take a course on legal ethics and professional responsibility. After that, there is now a post law school standardized test, in addition to the Bar Exam, that is required for licensing, on legal ethics and professional responsibility, which I also took. In my view, what you are saying about Dershowitz is a lot of hot air. If there is a case to be made that his comments violated such standards, you have certainly not made it, and until you do, or can, I suggest you stop pretending.

I wouldn't bother reading either of them on anything to do with Israel, Pete, because I already know what they'll say. Dershowitz will find Israel innocent on all charges and Ahmedinejad will find it guilty on all charges. Both may make some valid points, but I couldn't really trust anything either says, because there's no objectivity there.

the idf did make a certain determination. this determination was made after due investigation, unlike that carried out by goldstone. the judge advocate also determined that the well damaged was a hamas command and control center. hence, unlike what goldstone claims, it was a military target, not a civilian target.

"calling him a traitor to the Jewish people" - Quote from article on Dershowitz statement about Goldstone This is far from a legal critique. I find it almost impossible to believe that even you think this is valid legal critique. What part of the Dershowitz statement above is a legal critique? Meanwhile, you and Cipora certainly give the appearance of believing the IDF is lying about the two officers it is disciplining. What do you know that not even the IDF knows? Maybe you should tell the IDF. It is one thing to believe the IDF is pure as Galahad. But then how can that be, if they are liars whenever they find something wrong?

You forgot the reason that was fed to us civilian citizens of Israel. The goal of Cast Lead was to stop the Qassams once and for all, to stop terrorist attacks from Gaza once and for all. It was to bring quiet to Sderot. It didn't achieve that either.

....populated area is regarded as a war crime, no matter what the intentions are. Check the facts, and then come back...:)

i did not say that the idf is wrong. i said that goldstone's report fails to prove intentionality in its allegations.

She is a propaganda outlet for several people.

Got you people worried over his meticulous dissection of Goldstones failure to meet standards has he? Looking forward to your FACTUAL rebuttal not hysterical accusation. The Case Against Goldstone Report: Study in Evidentiary Bias Read the full text of Alan Dershowitz's highly detailed rebuttal of the Gaza war report. www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=167150 - Cached - The case against the Goldstone Report

The visual comparisons with known events using phosphorus bombs were evidence enough to convince me. This is why it was, and is, clear to Israelis who are honest with themselves that Goldstone was not wide of the mark with his request for an independent investigation. It is also clear why the most ferocious and influential opposition to carrying out such an investigation comes from Gabi Ashkenazi and his boss, Ehud Barak.

Was the WP used as smokescreen or fired INTO not over buildings housing civillians?

Have read his Case against Goldstone ? Any criticism of his case you can make in law or fact? If you had any you would have made it Its much easier to repeat a few slogans than analyse facts isnt it?

What about the killing of four children (burning) and their father in their house - Abu Halima family - and a dozen other attacks on covilian areas in Gaza city and Jabalia? What about the 17th Jan attack on Beit Lahiya school. It seems Israeli probe is a bit more serious when foreign citizens are involved, but not when Palestinians life is taken. This proble is designed not to establish facts or justice, but to forge something that international community would buy. This is why it will fail. If you want to go towar, respect the rules of war. This applies to all. But it is no excuse not to abilde by these rules because adversaries do not. If Israel does not ackowledge the factual accounts at home, it will face them elsewhere.

if truth were obvious, we would not need courts of law. yet, even courts of law can make mistakes.

... a feisty Jewish lawyer who thrives on scandals, especially those involving Jewish chauvanism... he does not always serve us well, even if it is inadvertently...

....whether Israel committed war crimes in Gaza or not, even Israel has admitted now officially to have done so. The only question is, what kind of punishment will await those (politically and militarly) responsible for those reckless and unlawful actions. The answer to that question will show the rest of the world, whether Israel can still be regarded as a democracy with a more or less functionning system of justice, or whether she has driftes now finally into an (at least) "semi-rogue state" like the Serbia under Milosevic. P.S. There must be plenty of egg on the face of Mr. "bigot" Dershowitz this morning...:)

Apparently she thinks the IDF was wrong when they decided these two committed a crime. Apparently the IDF findings are not enough for her. And apparently the pictures of WP hitting buildings on the front page of Haaretz aren't enough either. Go Figure.

TP: "Herby said that using phosphorus to illuminate a target or create smoke is legitimate under international law, and that there was no evidence the Jewish state was intentionally using phosphorus in a questionable way, such as burning down buildings or consciously putting civilians at risk." http://www.cicr.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/weapons-interview-170109 Peter Herby: "We have not commented publicly on the legality of the current use of phosphorous weapons by Israel, contrary to what has been attributed to us in recent media reports."

the issue of intentionality is a general one within the entire report. intentionality is an extremely important element in any crime, and in particular in war crime. since war has not been outlawed, only those acts which have been committed with a wilfull intention to harm civilians can be alleged to be war crimes. intentionality cannot be assumed. in every single case where a war crime is alleged, intentionality must be proven. intentionality cannot be inferred from consequences. goldstone violates the law by assuming intentionality. it is not illegal to use phosphorous, unless there is an intention to harm civilians. whether such intention exists must be proven.

Freedom to incite is voluntarily limited to members of the Bar in the US. If Dershowitz wants to do so, he can give up his membership in the club. What the Supreme Court in the US recently rules on was the unlimited right of corporations to buy elections. Their ruling had nothing to do with Bar membership. But Hugo Chavez and the Saudi prince who control CITGO can spend $billions of CITGO corporate money now on defeating any candidate they don't like or to elect anybody they choose. CITGO is a US corporation controlled by foreigners. That is what our Supreme Court ruled. Being right wing doesn't necessarily mean being right.

It seems to be a crime to try to harm your enemy when engaged in a WAR. So endangering lives is only permitted in peace time! 7000 missiles aimed at the peaceful citizens - men, women and expecially children - of Sderot, were all permissible. No out-cry then. No running to the UN to protest. No Goldstone Report. So now we have got it. Let's only attack innocent civilians in peace time and we are safe from criticism.

CJK: "some people obviously do not believe in free speech there are those like mark of lewiston and johnboy who would want dershowitz to be silenced." There is a world of difference between "free speech" and "incitement", Cipora. Go ask Yitzak Rabin to explain the differ..... oh, yeah, sorry, you can't, can you? Mark believes that a statement by a barrister calling someone "a traitor to the Jewish people" is INCITEMENT. And I for one agree with him, precisely because it is beyond dispute that a, ahem, "excitable" fringe exists that is more than capable of responding to such a clarion-call. Ask Rabin about tha... oh, yeah, sorry.....

... for IDF misdeameanors... weird "justice" by those delivering it...

Had we fought WWII hamstrung by today's laws of war the Nazis and Japanese would have won and world Jewry would be extinct.

So what happened to these two for endangering human life? Were they sent to prison - or told over a cup of coffee and a croissant, not to do it in front of the world's press next time? I'm guessing the latter.

Mark Lincoln claims that "They were spectacular photos and clearly photographs of White Phosphorous rounds being expended over civilian targets." Where's the proof of you claims? There were only a few injured. Had the IDF used White Phosphorous on civilian targets there would've been hundreds of more dead because of it.

Doesn't anyone else see the completely fallacy of asking a criminal to investigate his own crime? Give me a break. After months of denials, Israel has now decided to try throwing a couple of officers under the bus in the hopes of appeasing the international community. Well its not going to work, everyone knows the use of White Phosphorous was much more widespread than they're letting on.

Cipora, do you really think that there is any liklihood that phophorous-ammo may have been used purely as decoration... a sort of tinsel-in-the-sky...? Methinks that phospho displays the worst intentions for the receiver...

Israel denied any wrongdoing for months and months and adamantly dismissed all of the allegations. Now it looks like they've decided to sacrifice 2 officers and make them the scapegoats. We all know the use of white phosphorous was far more widespread then they're letting on, but at least this is progress.

there are those like mark of lewiston and johnboy who would want dershowitz to be silenced.

A mass killer can't overtake his own investigations and make a report. Give it a break, Israelis. The world will just laugh as your army can't be trusted after all what was seen live on the TV screens.

Peter Herby, IRC mines-arms unit (Jan 13 2009): "In some of the strikes in Gaza it's pretty clear that phosphorus was used. But it's not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it's being used in any other way." Herby said that using phosphorus to illuminate a target or create smoke is legitimate under international law, and that there was no evidence the Jewish state was intentionally using phosphorus in a questionable way, such as burning down buildings or consciously putting civilians at risk. See: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090114/ap_on_re_eu/eu_red_cross_white_phosphorus_2 See also the definition of "Incendiary weapons" in: Protocol 3 to the International Convention on the Prohibition or Restrictions on the Use of Certain COnventional Weapons 1980. "Incendiary weapons do not include: (i) Munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling system".

All the situations are clearly described.

To this person who says that she/he would do the same as IDF: Well, by international law, that would also make you a criminal. Furthermore, your violent discourse only proves your barbaric thought process. You haven't proved anything beyond that.

Not a single of my posts can you cite that would cause anybody to shoot anybody. You cannot say that about many of yours about Obama and you cannot say it believably about what Dershowitz said. As a member of the bar in the US, he is supposed to maintain standards as an officer of the court. That is a voluntary restriction on his freedom that every member of the US Bar accepts. That you cannot see this is a sign you know nothing of what you write. Before writing about American courts, perhaps you should take a course.

As if IDF was ever "western".

Zionism is a nationalist religion that has replaced Judaism in Israel. I don't object to Zionism that sees Palestinians and others as human beings worthy of civil rights and international law isn't simply a suggestion like it is for some people on the board. If you knowingly fire white phosphorous at a place where there are civilians, then you knowingly engaged in a war crime. Israeli soldiers who have a conscience said war crimes were committed, though they didn't identity who did them and didn't give their names. Obviously, those Israeli soldiers see Arabs as human beings and not just Israeli Jews and believe in protecting their homeland, Israel, without sacrificing their humanity. Based on international law, Israel just confessed some soldiers engaged in war crimes. I am sure there are others. Before, anyone who said war crimes occured we were told they were anti-Semites, Jew haters. A crime is a crime regardless of race, color, religion.

he is a joke when it comes to anything to do with Israel. He is liar and takes warped pleasure in trying to change actual facts of history. Give me a break please. Nobody listens to that idiot.

CJK: "you are posting here every single day inciting against israel and the idf." No, Mark is exceptionally critical of the actions of Israel and the IDF, and he does not hesitate to call their actions what they are: illegal. But he does not INCITE. "Alan Dershowitz slammed jurist Richard Goldstone, the architect of a UN report which accuses Israel of Gaza war crimes, calling him a traitor to the Jewish people," That is INCITEMENT, Cipora, because calling someone "a traitor to his people" is a clarion call to the nutters out there to do something about it "in the name of the people".

Very pretty, aren't they?

... to come-clean at last about problematic issues... ... may he long prevail... ...what does his Defence Min have to say...?

Until there us a balance of power in the area.

It is not really a news that some would love to see Goldstone to represent Hamas on behalf of American court... however the US congress clearly rejected the report in the first place. So, whoever is inciting for Goldstone in US is in defiance of standing US congress resolutions.

Instead of Justice, Israel has developed new "Justice Lite". Like Coca Cola lite, except it doesn't taste good.

Why not disbarring everone who exercises his or her right to free speech, particularly if it is founded (can't have that, can't we?). Only a UN officer should have the right to say whatever he pleases since he is backed by a moral majority of more than 100 third world dictatorships. On the other hand, there was something called the First Amendment, I am pretty sure about it. Wasn't that the think the Supreme Court held up recently?

Thanks Mr. Goldstone because your Objective report is forcing Israel to somewhat look deep into itself. Finally, Israel is seeing a couple of trees in the jungle. Only 2 IDF foot soldiers! What about those who sent them to war and, consequently, to a war crimes situation. The only way you can fight a war against a prison, Gaza, is by committing war crimes.

Not sure why Israel bothers. The world knows the way Israel works - the two officers involved will either be promoted, or resign and have their pensions doubled or tripled. Either way, I don't think Ban will be too impressed with the way Israel glosses over alleged war crimes, and will reflect that in his report to the General Assembly.

are all jews like this? or is it the zionists, i'de like to know, and now we here they are sacrificing 2 guys that probably had been given orders to do so.WTF.

there is no doubt that dershowitz has pointed to one of the most dangerous aspects of the goldstone report, namely, the lack of proof of intentionality. war crimes, like all crimes, must be proven to be intentional. intentionality cannot be assumed.

you are posting here every single day inciting against israel and the idf. your incitement against israel and the idf is much more pernicious than what one jurist says about another.

members for minor thefts, and calling that investigating and prosecuting those who committed war crimes isn't going to cut it, and decided to up the ante to a couple of IDF members for shooting at the UN. Now, this may offer the US government enough of a fig leaf that they will be able to hide behind it while they veto the resolution to tell the prosecutor at the Hague to take a formal look. But it won't convince most people who saw what the IDF was doing, and they'll react with outrage, thus fuelling the BDS Israel movement. And it's not likely to convince that prosecutor either, and he can decide to go ahead even if the resolution gets vetoed.

the old "..but Hamas fired rockets for 8 years" routine is a useless argument. more people die from domestic violence in Israel than those who even get effected by the rockets that Hamas fires. so please, stop using that excuse. there is absolutely no reason why the IDF has to launch a full scale war on an area no bigger than a couple of football fields and full of civilians.

So, they will be promoted, will they not? They will become PM and FM?

1,167 civilians were killed, including fifty kids under age 6, and you can come up with only TWO officers ENDANGERING lives? Not TAKING lives? Israel, you are the laughing stock of the entire world.

IDF is "INVESTIGATING" , no final determination has been made Goldstone wasn't there, neither were you, so both of you are relying on second hand information Must be wonderful to be a back seat kibbitzer, never having been anywhere near the action, without any intentions of going It's no wonder we have Global Warming, your hot air is a main contributor

The commanders that directed the rocket fire at Israeli Civilian's and settlements While Hamas is at it, they should also investigate who gave the orders for their fighters to use their own civilian's as Human Shields, after all, Mr. Fahti Hamad, the Hamas spokeman bragged about it, so it must have been official Hamas policy

Will it satisfy the howling masses crying for crucification of the Jewish state ? NO.

The list of violations of various Hague Conventions and other international agreements does not appear to specifically refer to the use of white phosphorus as a weapon in proximity of non military targets i.e. civilians likely to be harmed. Try crimesofwar.org with an artic le by Steven Ratner,Esq. who, because he is with the Center for Constitutional Rights will be labeled as anti-Israel, anti-Semitic and or Self-Hating Jew. If Alan Dershowitz should say it is not a war crime or in any way unlawful by Israel then of course that opinion is the correct one. Let's see what comments follow.

Seth Grossman "Esq." maybe a lawyer but possibly does not know much about international law. My impression is that the use of white phosphorus in proximity of civilians is contrary to international law to which almost every other nation subscribes. I haven't checked this out but will and try to cite my source.

I could not agree more Mark Lincoln. But what is obvious to you or me is justifiable still to some. Note the poster from Melbourne who could find a way to exonerate William Calley if he had been Israeli. Then there are still those who justify anything because somebody once did it to somebody else. I wonder does Joshua at Jericho justify anything and everything that followed? I don't think so. But to some it might, including some who post on this thread, apparently.

There has never been any serious person, outside Israel, that claimed Palestinians collectively killed civilian Jews. That crime was always committed by individual Palestinians. However, there is a growing sentiment outside Israel that Israelis collectively acted against Palestinian civilians. If anything, it is Israelis that need to learn military discipline (i.e., restraint) from Palestinians.

Both of you make uncorroborated statements as if we should believe that you are experts, apriori. 1. The IDF "have killed more innocent civilians in the middle east than all middle eastern armies combined." Yea, right. 2. And as far as "obvious truth" regarding pictures of shells: Yea, right. Both these "truths" are invented and obvious only to those whose "truths" are preconceived.

"UNRWA is the biggest criminal Keeps poor people in refugee camps, without future and without hope." Strange, it offers relief and works to people who are only refugees because they're not allowed their rights by Israel. "Unfortunately IDF used on them just a phosphorus" Uh huh. 'just'.... ever tried it on your skin? "Why nobody opens file against those criminals to find out how much UN money they stole from the refugees" They are accountable TO THE UN.

I can't believe that Dershowitz calls Goldstone a traitor.He also calls Finkelstein a self hating jew. He seriously needs to go see a doctor. Is it possible to critisize Israel without being labeled an antisemitic by these lunatics?

If the goal of Cast Lead was to destroy civilian infrastructure, it was a great success. If it was to kill - or eradicate - Palestinian terrorists, it was a failure. If Cast Lead was intended to destroy Hamas - as many touted - it was a miserable failure. If, as some suspect, the goal of Cast Lead was to ensure a Kadima victory in the upcoming elections, it was a spectacular failure. Did Cast Lead better the position of Israel? The answer is clearly NO. So emphatically NO that now the IDF and Government of Israel, have decided to throw two guys to the wolves in an attempt to save the nation's honor. Which is such a dishonorable act as to only further impeach the nation of Israel. And it is an act which has the fingerprints of both Barak and Netanyahu all over it.

"IDF investigating war crimes commited by the IDF? Ya right. Only UN independent commision will do, The IDF can never be trusted, they have killed more innocent civilians in the middle east than all middle eastern armies combined." - Al I must have a much longer view of history than you. I have seen Israel and the IDF honestly criticize itself. I think Israel is still quite capable of an honest investigation, though the politicians have clearly chose to first deny the obvious and now throw a few to the wolves. And I think the IDF - until the last decade - has tried to avoid unnecessary civilian casualties. Only the Second Lebanon War and Cast Lead have clearly shown a desire to avoid combat with terrorists and maximized civilian destruction. If you do not believe me, compare the battle of Jenin vs Cast Lead. In Jenin the IDF clearly concentrated upon killing terrorists and avoiding civilian casualties. In Cast Lead the target was clearly civilian infrastructure.

The 'Truth' about Cast Lead was obvious at the time. Haaretz, and the rest of the Israeli press were happpy to print those breathtaking pictures of White Phosphorous rounds - supplied by the USA - bursting over Gaza city. They were spectacular photos and clearly photographs of White Phosphorous rounds being expended over civilian targets. The 'truth' was obvious to any who had a clue about what was being presented by IDF censors to the Israeli press showed. To believe that only two commanders in the IDF were aware of the actions of the IDF beggars imagination. If Barak did not know what was going on it was only because he did not want to know, or knew and still will not admit it. Bet on the latter, because NO military officer could have seen those headline photos during Cast Lead and have not known that they were White Phosphorous rounds.

Keeps poor people in refugee camps, without future and without hope. Unfortunately IDF used on them just a phosphorus. Why nobody opens file against those criminals to find out how much UN money they stole from the refugees.

There first priority is to protect IDF soldiers. As it is the IDF has gone further to try and protect civilians then any other army - against and Enemy which which focuses the majority of its efforts killing civilians. To much focus is put by the IDF to protect civilians and too little focus on protecting its own citizens. Hamas had a choice. They could have had a charter of peace, they could have focus their effort on building a just state (demonstrating to Israel that the Palestinians can be positive) which would have helped their cause vis a vis the west bank as well They knowingly choose to attack civilians, they charter is an racist call to murder, their speeches are the same and when they were elected the population had no single doubt where they stood. The people chose them like previous generations chose the Nazi party, like the support for many murderous regimes. Time for the IDF to grow up and understand that there is a limit to Political correctness - must be reciprocal.

And what was the much photographed M825A1 155mm Howitzer shell supplied Israel by the USA? It was the cause for those beautiful photographs printed by all the Israeli press showing a white burst with white tendrils streaking downward. White phosphorous has a number of uses. It can be used as a smoke screen, or as an anti-personnel incendiary. It was clear from the photographs in Haaretz and other Israeli press, that the use being made was as an anti-personnel incendiary round. It was in that role that White Phosphorous was employed against the UN head quarters and warehouses. I was aware of what I was seeing - and my posts at the time noted during the first few days that the WP was being used against orchards where it was a legitimate anti-personnel round. Then the use changed to being against civilian targets. If I could see this so could Barak and the leaders of the IDF. To throw two officers to the wolves to deflect charges against those who planned and led is despicable.

everybody makes mistakes and every country makes mistakes but there has to be a due process and consequences for mistakes ,officials need to take reponsibility for their actions,and that's how you create credibilty.

The photo, as with so many published in Haaretz during Cast Lead, clearly shows an M825A

the problem is not 2 officers but deeply rooted in the leadership . we expect ahkenazi to take the blame

I didn't know Goldstone represents Hamas as an officer of American court... the implication of such position is very far reaching.

I'm sure the Wiesenthal Center will get right on this.

Some miljons have been killed in the war between Irak and Ira. In Syria there was 70 thousends killed. Hussein killed i n two days 17 000 of thhe palestiniens when Black September tried to overthrow him Are you kidding or just cant stopp lying? The IDF is not even near to these amounts beginning from 1948. Which middle eastern armies are you taking about! On the moon?

Cast Lead: 313 children killed, 1606 injured. Start the investigation there.

All of them!!

they have not called Goldstone anti-Semite yet.

The mere fact that an officer exceeded orders does not make an action a war crime, any more than following orders absolves responsibility. There is nothing in this article which justifies the headline.

the world ha been committing war crimes against the jewish people for more tha 2000 years, and the moslem world still is. get real.......

First, it was denied. Then, it was a mistake. Then, it was justified. Then Goldstone reported on it and asked for an investigation. Then Goldstone was demonized and it was justified again. Now, it is acknowledged as a crime. But Goldstone is still demonized.

I don't care if he did it in Israel or Timbuktu, Dershowitz is inciting against Goldstone just as those who inspired Yigal Amir. Dershowitz no longer qualifies as an officer of any American court and should be disbarred.

IDF investigating war crimes commited by the IDF? Ya right. Only UN independent commision will do, The IDF can never be trusted, they have killed more innocent civilians in the middle east than all middle eastern armies combined.

How many missions did they run in gaza and you found 2 incidents? Get over it. Hamas fired rockets on israeli civilains. Israel had no option but to attack in self defense. Anyone injured or killed should blame the PALs and Hamas for doing nothing to stop the firing of rocket and morters. Hamas hid in a hospital and israel didnt level it as i would have done. That says alot about those in israel.

When an army admits to committing 2 war crimes, you know they've committed 200 or 2000. Just like with the US' admission of using torture on suspects who turned out to be totally innocent.