Haaretz probe: 'New' settlement permits aren't really new

"If we leave the hills of Judea [the West Bank], we will be in a militarily inferior position vis a vis the enemy." (ombudsman) Absurd. Unless, of course, the Palestinians find a way to build a subterranean pipeline connecting them to Iran - under Jordan and Iraq. Or, alternatively, a way to fuel their tanks and planes with orange juice. "I am sure there is no peace to be had. No matter what we do." (ombudsman) Absurd no less. If there is no peace to be had, no matter what we do, then Israel is doomed, and its creation has been nothing but a most tragic deception. For there can be no prospect of long term survival for a state in perpetual war with its neighbours.

Howdy Jeff; Before you start spouting off about the legal ambiguities of status (the American position is known to you, The European position too, that of ICJ or all HR organisms I don't mention, guess Israel Supreme Court decisions (e.g Sasson inquiry, and other mostly not respected by the State) or the 1999 legal statement of IV GC contracting parties is no news to you), before all that let me show you back to the "argument" you started and forgot: the 'mother nature' factor that is somehow unique to Israel and very unhelpful to the frontiersmen-tristy horizons of Negev. Where the G-ddam answer of Jeff on his own is a strange mystery or at least so for someone who doesn't know Jeff's professional 'first shoot then talk' psychomotoric reflex, to which perhaps is also amenable his phrase "and no hudnas or tahadiyehs this time either" I guess army sense of humor is not helpful noting that it is precisely Netanyahu who is talking of 9 months term. What about Negev though, Jeff?

Yes it's true the 'Roadmap to Peace' was for a 2005 resolution, but has the requirements changed in the last four years? As time goes on, does the PA want less land? Is there give and take between how much land verses how many rockets or bombings? Building settlements in the WB is seen in the U.S. as greed on the part of the Israelis. If an agreement is EVER reached it will involve demolishing these settlements. So either the money is being wasted or there will never be peace.

Howdy Jeff; Before you start spouting off about the legal ambiguities of status (the American position is known to you, The European position too, that of ICJ or all HR organisms I don't mention, guess Israel Supreme Court decisions (e.g Sasson inquiry, and other mostly not respected by the State) or the 1999 legal statement of IV GC contracting parties is no news to you), before all that let me show you back to the "argument" you started and forgot: the 'mother nature' factor that is somehow unique to Israel and very unhelpful to the frontiersmen-tristy horizons of Negev. Where the G-ddam answer of Jeff on his own is a strange mystery or at least so for someone who doesn't know Jeff's professional 'first shoot then talk' psichomotoric reflex, to which perhaps is also amenable his phrase "and no hudnas or tahadiyehs this time either" I guess army sense of humor is not helpful noting that it is precisely Netanyahu who is talking of 9 months term. What about Negev though, Jeff?

That is the only deep concern of Israel: its demographic disadvantage. That's what this is all about, the bottom line. Israel is loosing population in comparison to the Arab sector in Israel itself and in its occupied territories. It is dead set on its policy of expansionism and discrimination against Arabs in building,preventing the connecting oftheir villages in a contiguous formation, against allowing Palestinians to return to their families, even if for a visit. Israel realises that the goal of zionism remains unfulfilled and it is trying to create demogrpahic realities that will give them an advantage. Israel has set out on a policy of curtailing any growth or advancement of the Arab population in Israel and those living under occupation. Statistics, in the long run,are not in favour of Israel.

This is absurd. Israel talks of "freeze" but then builds. It sanctions what was intended for construction, then put on hold and now not considered "frozen" construction but previous unfinished construction that needs to be finished. Israel has one intention and it is not peace. It is further expansionism. Screw the US, screw the EU. They talk the walk and then snub their noses. The direction is clear and the talk is murky and not to be trusted.

zeev takes israel and the settlers to task.zeev's case is that settlements would put an end to peace and the guarantee of one state. we do not have a choice in the matter of the settlements.if we leave the hills of judea we will be in a militarily inferior position vis a vis the enemy.zeev expects peace to come to the region.i am sure there is no peace to be had. no matter what we do.

"You can't freeze all of the Israeli settlers all of the time." (J. Northridge) Howdy Jeff, Have the settlers won? Are you trying to tell us that Israel has no future? That we should placidly contemplate the prospect of bi-national state between the sea and the river? The end of the zionist dream? Can we Israelis lie to all the world all the time? Keep building on a land not ours and claim that all we want is peace? Be forever the only democratic country to lord over a foreign and stateless people?

that story has had a shelf life of 24 hours.what would have been said and done by the likes of roo and others if israel had been responsible and the palestinians were victims. why this double standard? no jews in the case.

we do not owe you or anyone else an explanation. we deal and listen only with and to the people of israel.

Also the pretext on which it is claimed construction can not be halted. It is clear to any who are interested that one of the prime reasons there is demand for new housing units and infrastructure in the O.T. is the subsidies given to West Bank communities. 40% of so called 'natural growth' is immigration from inside Israel or abroad and therefore nothing to do with mother nature or any other natural process. It is the result of a long standing and deliberately engineered policy designed to settle these areas in contravention of all international law and in defiance of all international opinion. Subsidies to industry, for land purchase and agriculture, as well as favourable tax treatment, denied to many Israeli communities outside of the WB. Israelis and American immigrants are persuaded to come and live in the WB because of these subsidies and grants. If Israel would simply halt the additional financial incentives offered to the WB communties, housing demand would decrease markedly. This would allow for all possible 'natural growth' to be accommodated by those who would remain.

Howdy zmogus; Before you start spouting off about what belongs to whom in disputed areas of the West Bank, then get a bilateral agreement as to where the Goddamned border is first because none has ever been established previously. And no half-assed armistices, cease fires, hudnas or tahadiyehs this time either. Only a final and permanent peace treaty will suffice in which both Israel and the PA mutually recognize each other with a permanent border and with no residual territorial claims against one other in accordance with UNSCR 242.

What about the "natural growth" of Palestinian communities? How easily such a consideration doesn't even seem to be part of this discussion. Palestinians with large families can't even get permits to expand individual houses. Such circumstances are called blatant discrimination!

about Arab attempts to destroy Israel, but are infuriated by Jews rebuilding their nation in their homeland and MUCH WORSE having the will and capacity to defend themselves.

Howdy Jeff; The point is that your "Mother Nature" just as good an "argument" for the WB as it is for overcrowded islands of England or Japan solving their lebensraum at the territorial expense of France or China. Since they don't think that idea very brilliant, forget it in Israel's colonies, too. The point is that if your point is a valid fig leaf for the WB, it is so the more reasonable reason for settling and finally making a garden out of that desert called Negev. The point is that the above might be less obvious to someone who scrutinizes for days the Intl. Law & GCs only for finding a legal hole for justifying what this Law was intended to prevent. The point is that your war, Jeff, is over quite a while ago, bringing the sea of dead, an underground memorial and a handful of worthless shining metal pieces in the drawer to polish on a dull Sunday, given for shooting couple of villagers. It's a hightime to be back to civil society and reasoning valid logically and not military.

If and when the West Bank is finally returned to the Palestinians - and most of it will be returned - you will cause yourselves much heartbreak, once you have to leave the settlements you have devoted your lives to.\Such has already happended to the settlers of the Gaza Strip. Not only that, there will most probably be an outbreak of violence between Jew and Jew, leading to who-knows-how-many dead and injured. And all this because of your hallucinatory, messianic visions, which will turn out to be nothing but pipe dreams. Remember, Yishai, that nothing but trouble and tragedy has been caused by Jewish messianic dreams in the past. Need I remind you of Jesus and Christianity, of Shimon bar Kozeba and the Second JewishReviktm of Shlomo Molcho, of Shabbetai Zvi and all the havoc he wreaked upon both Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jewry? Now you are doing the same, by mistakenly viewing settlement of the WB as divinely ordained. If you really want "ge'ulah", settle Galilee and Negev!

So Ill repeat the gist of it (Esther has already stated one central point). The Galilee and the Negev are internationally-recognized parts of Israel; the West Bank is not. However, the demographic balance in the Galilee and the Negev is shifting in favor of the Arabs, who now make increasingly strident demands for political autonomy. If you and your compatriots had settled, or would settle in these parts of Israel, you would have helped keep the demographic balance in favor of the Jews. But since you have chosen to settle in the West Bank, which have never been part of the State of Israel (forget the Bible for a moment, OK?), you are making all of Israeli Jews run an increasing risk of losing the Galilee and the Negev. You are causing the Israeli government unnecessary and wsted expenditure on construction, roads and military expenditurem which will all have proved to be a waste, once peace is made with the Palestinians. You will cause yurselves great heartbreak (cont'd.)

I'm so bored with the settlers. if they want to live in Palestine, it's their problem. Here in Israel we have a country to build. And Haaretz do not censor this one... Freedom anyone?

the thing is, permits could ( and should) be cancelled. As it is Israel is happily building along and still expects the International Community to view it as a stop for which it should be rewarded. And ofcourse the Arabs won't fall for this so in a few months Israel will say, see we told you, we got nothing! And since we got nothing we will happily build further and further all the way to a one-state solution

i do not call you critics i refer to you as haters.that is the more appropriate description. you have no investment in israel and the jewish people and your posts are informed by animosity.there is no reason why israel would listen to your silly nonsense.

because we no longer occupy it.we cannot obtain real time intelligence on the region.for the moment that is not the case with judea. were we to evacuate judea however the same problem would arise among the 2.5 million people of the west bank,they would kidnap our people and we would not know where they are being held.

To give it more emphasis the news piece was called NEW HOUSING UNITS. After checking it out it was clear that the new units were not new at all. So the correction. Or am I wrong?

esther perhaps if you studied kabbala you would make [get] more sense ; the reason for judea and samamria is because israel cannot exists as 9km wide land !

"These are attempts to strangle us and stifle our natural growth here in OUR land." (Y. Kohen) I wish they were. "OUR land." Whose land? Jewish land? Is its stateless population Jewish too? Israeli land? Since when has it been declared under Israeli sovereignty? And its population granted Israeli citizenship? "We cannot allow it to continue." (Y. Kohen) We cannot allow you, zealots taught by false and fanatical teachers, a minority among us, continue to lead us straight to another Matsada. Forget it.

True, approved during Kadima administration. Q.- So shat are the 'NEW HOUSING UNITS' that Bibi 'approved'?

... within sovreign Israel, including the Negev and Galilee, which are crying out for Jewish presence... it is unnecessary and unjust to carry out your 'natural growth' at the expense of our neighbor's, the Pals... Please come home to Israel?!

It's time for the the EU and US to put some teeth behind their displeasure at Israel's sabotaging of the peace process. How can anyone have any faith Israel is serious about a just solution to the extreme injustice being done to the palestinians?

Stone walling, literally building of stone, or maintaining rigid political positions without dialogue are Israels basic strategy in it's long term creeping annexation expansion. It is righfully denounced by America and the Palestinians as it impinges on the future territory of a Palestinian state, and continues a precedent of unilateral action and non negotiation of differences, a very bad precedent if peaceful relations are ever to be established. But the Palestinians are not without blame either. Their extremist vision, denial of recognition of Israel and general attempt to turn the clock back have also been stone walls in most interactions. Both sides must change in order for there to be progresss towards peace. Halting construction is both symbolic and a gesture of an intention to change. May the Palestinians respond posively instead of defensively, yet again.

* All of the bureaucratic red tape * The limited number of permits * Granted only for specific areas but not the smaller communities where housing demand FAR outpaces supply These are attempts to strangle us and stifle our natural growth here in OUR land. We cannot allow it to continue.

Howdy Colin; The point is that you can freeze some of the Israeli settlers all of the time, all of the Israeli settlers some of the time, but you can't freeze all of the Israeli settlers all of the time. Mother Nature will not allow the latter. It was George Mitchell who first towed his iceberg from the North Atlantic to the Levant in 2003 and now it has melted down to the size of an ice cube because of the heat. The Road Map was supposed to have led to a peace agreement by the end of 2005 so a settlement freeze was reasonable at the time, but to expect that such a freeze can be maintained indefinitely is shear folly.

So what if they were not 'new'? The fact and intent of the Government of Israel is very clear. The intent is to shove settlements up the rump of Obama and the USA. The fact is that settlements were rammed up the ass of Obama, the EU, and any in Arab nations who wished to convince their governments to make peace with Israel. The intent of the government of Israel is clear. To put an end to ANY peace effort. This intent has been achieved. Israel wants no peace, no compromise, no accommodation. Israel wants endless war and endless conquest until ALL of judea, Samaria and even Gaza have been annexed into Israel. It does not matter that a majority of Israelis might not wish endless war. They do not wish to overturn a government which desires endless war. Israel is willing to have it's future controlled by the Settlers. And thus Israel has abandoned any control, and any complaint, over it's future. Germany signed on to Hitler's Agenda just as Israel has signed on to the Settlers

Kadima and livni approved them with all the infastructure and now they are blaming Bibi. These projects were put through during the olmert era. Bibi hasn't approved any new projects and has stopped all new projects. Livni and Kadima talk about peace when they put up several thousand new settler homes and then blame bibi for mopping up their projects. Now they blame bibi for messing up relations with the americans when it was their projects and even mofaz himself. This is the height of hypocricy on kadima's part.

After all, almost everyone must fall into one of two groups: either they don't need to be deceived, or they won't be deceived.