EU sources: Terms set for renewal of Israel-PA talks

d: "the palestinians people voted for hamas. read their platform if you think they are not threatening israel" You have, of course, completely forgotten your original argument. Which was this: d: "Israel has the power to withhold water from all the palestinians" I see nothing in there where you are claiming that Israel can, or should, withhold water from any Palestinian who voted for Hamas. Care to explain the discrepency, duncan? Or is it - shock! horror! - that your idea of "a consistent argument" is to hop from one foot to the other like a frog on a hot plate, and all the while hoping that everyone else has the same lamentable attention-span as yourself?

Under your very own argument it can not be an act of self defense, because the people you are threatening are not the people who are threating YOU ... the palestinians people voted for hamas. read their platform if you think they are not threatening israel

d: "The jewish people had the option in 1922 to immigrate to plaestine in such numbers so as to become the majority and forming a jewish majority state." They tried, and they failed. The best they ever managed was 33% of the total popln. .... evading my question. did they have the option yes or no.? d: "Did the arab nations have a legal right to thwart zionism by also immigrating so as to prevent the jewsih majority. no they had no such legal right." All legislative and administrative power rested with the Mandatory i.e. it alone decided that question. .... evading my question which is an answer of sorts. duncan

d: "a tunisian arab pre-48 wants to immigrate to Palestine under the British mandate, on the grounds that he is an arab and has a legal entitlement. He will be refused as no such legal right exists" Nothing in the Mandate text said that the Mandatory Power *had* to refuse that Arab immigrant. If the Mandatory was OK with it then that Arab migrant was perfectly legitimate. d: "The jewish people had the option in 1922 to immigrate to plaestine in such numbers so as to become the majority and forming a jewish majority state." They tried, and they failed. The best they ever managed was 33% of the total popln. d: "Did the arab nations have a legal right to thwart zionism by also immigrating so as to prevent the jewsih majority. no they had no such legal right." All legislative and administrative power rested with the Mandatory i.e. it alone decided that question. That the zionists might shout "unfair! unfair!" was of no concern to that Mandatory Power.

Duncan, you asserted that Israel could threaten to deprive the Palestinians of water as a way of preventing anyone else applying pressure upon Israel to end that occupation. When I pointed out the enormity of that crime against humanity you had the gall to claim: d: "Self defence is no crime." Under your very own argument it can not be an act of self defense, because the people you are threatening are not the people who are threating YOU. It is "extortion". It is "blackmail". It is "holding the Palestinians as hostage". It is many other things beside. But "self-defense"? No, duncan, it requires a very warped mind indeed to think that.

Ouch, indeed.... You know what that will mean, don`t you? Israel can`t simply demand that it be given the settlements because.... well.... because it wants them. ..... what makes you think that the us will get its way. grandiose us plans have failed before. eg rogers plans. bush wanted a palestinian state in the year. I am still waiting. hamas shows no sign of relinquishing its control of gaza. most commentators say a split palestinian state will not work. are you brave enough to make a prediction, by when there will be a palestinian state. my (I believe safe) prediction is that by the end of 2010 you will have still pleanty to argue against Israel on this forum, with a palestianian state being no nearer duncan

a tunisian arab wants to immigrate to syria under the french mandate, on the grounds that he is an arab and has a legal entitlement. He will be refused as no such legal right exists. a tunisian arab pre-48 wants to immigrate to Palestine under the British mandate, on the grounds that he is an arab and has a legal entitlement. He will be refused as no such legal right exists. a tunisian Jew wants to immigrate to palestine under the British mandate, on the grounds that he is a Jew and has a legal entitlement. He cannot be legally refused. The jewish people had the option in 1922 to immigrate to plaestine in such numbers so as to become the majority and forming a jewish majority state. Did the arab nations have a legal right to thwart zionism by also immigrating so as to prevent the jewsih majority. no they had no such legal right. conclusion. The jewish people had the legal right in 1922 to form a jewish majority state and the arabs had no legal right to stop them.

But I disagree with you that the IDF could ever wield that power, because if it does then it will have become the very thing that Jews despise most. .... Self defence is no crime. duncan

"Israel is immune to any sanctions aimed at helping its palestinian enemies, as Israel can retaliate 10 times harder against its enemies. Israel has the power to withhold water from all the palestinians." Sure, and Israel can send a few hundred yeshiva students and take the staff of European embassies as hostages.

d: "Israel has the power to withhold water from all the palestinians." Yeah, and Israel has the power to line them all up against a wall and shoot them. All of them. So what's your point? What you call "the enemy" are a people under a decade's long occupation by the Israeli military. That makes them "protected persons", and their "protector" is none other than the IDF. That the IDF "has the power" to act as monsters instead of protectors is not something that I dispute; clearly, the IDF has that power. But I disagree with you that the IDF could ever wield that power, because if it does then it will have become the very thing that Jews despise most.

gravity of the reputed plan here. The USA and EU will stipulate that the Green Line is the de facto border. Palestine will be recognized as a state based on that border and accepted by the UN as a FULL sovereign state. Israel and Palestine can agree whatever they like in the 2 years, such as land swaps, and disagree on other things, like ROR, recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, etc. It makes no difference to the outcome of two sovereign states with a Green Line between them. It means that Israel cannot IMPOSE or even insist on any of the list of strictures you set out. It may get some by negotiation, others by backdoor pressure from the US and EU, but it has lost the right to dictate the terms. Quite right too, doing so hasn't produced any results for 40 years, other than continued Israeli land seizure, bullying and hegemony. This is a much-needed breath of fresh air.

jim, - either you've forgotten it or you weren't around following the events during & around the oslo accords (from -93 & onwards). there's no way to solve anything essential about this conflict by bypassing & postponing the central issues. that's what oslo did, leaving all the major cruxes open-ended in the hope that somehow w/time these would be resolved. it led to disastrous results (in spite of oslo's many good intentions & also the the real progress it brought in many areas, paving way for all that followed).

aren't some of you guys blue-eyed believers! newageblues, - the admission changes nothing. palestine is defacto admitted to the UN decades ago, & the palestinian state is defacto there in some preliminary form since mid -90s. it's the issues that remain unresolved. there's no way to bypass the real negotiations leading to a real, final settlement of the conflict. the only thing this may change is giving israel some more legal leeway vis a vis the pals when trouble & violence erupts once more between the two. & some of the TBs here will have another wonderful round of debating what the legal obligations of the respective camps are & what constitutes a war crime & what not when killing each other's citizens. don't get fooled.

To put very large soft pillows on the ends of their rockets if the Palistinians are going to move in very close to them. Cause the last few rockets hurt.

Ramzi, Israel apologizes for its creation in return for recognition as a state of the Jewish people. Interesting idea since both sides reject each contention at present. Israel probably won't withdraw entirely to Green Line but it appears that most Israelis are willing to exchange territories for the major settlement blocs. The amount of territory is not that great - between 50 and 75 square miles. Israel already protects minorities as full citizens in its Basic Law. It has no written formal Constituation. Palestine has extreme anti-Jewish laws (like the death penalty for selling land to Jews) which they would have to change. Israel allowing in as many Pals as Jews remaining in Palestine. That is an interesting idea that deserves to be negotiated. Best wishes to you, Ramzi Jabar. I hope other Palestinians are as flexible as you are.

Johnboy, An international boycott of Israel by UNSCR is a non-starter. 1. Europe doesn't need a desperate, hungry nuclear power in its area of influence. It is much better to negotiate an agreement that Israel can live with. 2. The US doesn't want Israel to line up with China and sell US technology (stopped it once). The US will veto serious sanctions. 3. When Palestine declares its state, the borders it controls will be the de facto borders. In fact, a new 1948 Rhodes Armistice, so to speak. The difference between them and the Green Line will be truly 'disputed'. That is why the Palestinians never would declare an interim state in the past. Lebanon, Syria and (perhaps) the Gulf States will expel their Pals to the WB. Israel would not allow a Pal return to Israel. Both Europe and the US would prefer a negotiated peace over a truncated Palestine. Johnboy, Israel still holds cards.

All, This is fine. Stop salivating. The recognition will be based on 1967 borders but the parties 'can' negotiate changes based on exchange of territory. Johnboy, Ivar, Mark of Lewiston expect that this will result in a forced expulsion of Jews from beyond the Green Line. Actually, this will be a claim but the de facto border will be the one to which Israel withdraws (or doesn't withdraw). The agreement that sets up Palestine will be the end of all claims against Israel (SCR 242 & 338). That is the other side of Intl Law. The side that Johnboy rejects. Once the Pals declare their state, Lebanon and Syria will expel their Palestinians. Israel will not need to entertain any further negotiation on the Right of Return. The 'early recognition' is designed to give both sides an incentive to complete negotiating a border within two years. Those who think that this gives the Pals an incentive to insist on 'every inch' result, don't understand negotiations.

"The solution options are clear: 2-state peace, 1-state peace, or more war." [Jaber] 1 State, 2 State, or 3 State (Gaza, remember?) will not lead to peace. If there was ever to be peace between Jews and Muslims, it would have happened sometime in the last 1400 years. So reluctantly, I would have to examine the advantages of a low grade continual war. The war option is certainly good for the Palestinians, in monetary, life quality, and longevity dimensions. The vast majority of Arabs live in abject poverty, even in the oil exporting states, unless one is fortunate to be from the correct tribe. For a complete analysis, see "Palestinian Problem: Hopeless but not serious", by Spengler http://tinyurl.com/lqxxh7

those bad boy settlers stay in Hebron in return for a few hundred Palestinians being allowed to return to Israel, to take one example of Jews behaving badly in Palestine?

even if precise borders would remain to be determined would be a powerful message to hardliners on both sides to give it up.

Too many times before, we've had: That's not what we meant. We changed our minds. This government won't be bound by agreements of the last one. We agree on paper, but won't actually follow through. Or, we'll pretend to go along until after the war with Iran.

D: "Israel is immune to any sanctions aimed at helping its palestinian enemies, as Israel can retaliate 10 times harder against its enemies. Israel has the power to withhold water from all the palestinians." The IDF is the occupying power, Duncan, and the West Bank is under a belligerent occupation. Therefore the Palestinian civilian population are "protected persons" under int'l humanitarian law. Q: Who has the responsibility to "protect" those "persons"? A: The occupying power has that responsibility, and if it doesn't then it has committed a war crime. Israel *can* withhold water to the Palestinians, in the same way that the Germans *could* withhold water to the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto. The end result for the Israelis commanders and politicians responsible for that act will be the same, Duncan. As in, sooner or later, they will swing from the end of a gibbet, just as the Germans did.

Too many times before, we've had: That's not what we meant. We changed our minds. This government won't be bound by agreements of the last one. We agree on paper, but won't actually follow through.

Establishing the border = the prime consideration! Good! It is about time someone swept aside all this other crap and got down to the nitty-gritty! Acceptance of Palestine as a full member state in the UN is the next step; and - wonder of wonders! - this is appproved "at the highest level" of American administration! Also good! Jerusalem, refugees, Arab normaliztion of relations with Israel, can be dealt with later. No one will suffer by putting these off. Recognition of Israel as a Jewish state is not essential. That can only be decided by Israelis. It is no one else's business. Tell Netanyahu to drop it. So much for Netanyahu's ideas and/or preconditions which only delay the inevitable. Up with Peres! Up with Fayyad! Down with the warmongering Jihadists! On toward peace in ME!

You are right in all that you said on your post ! Time to go and live in jordan, the real palestine where most palestinians are living and prospering ! The two men; the pawn in ramallha & the joker in gaza, are both living on a myth that stop no hunger and satisfy no thirst, except that of their own. The same as Arafat did before them ! Palestine is a drug, a habit, the sooner it stop, the sooner the palestinians will be free !

A nation that survived longer than any other nation on the globe,has the right to live in its own land for ever ! The land of Israel is being recorded in all Jewish prayers, day and night & night and day, read and re-read for thousands of years ! There will never be a power that will stop the great & mighty Jews from stop praying for their rights to be eternal in their own home with its holy Jerusalem as their capital ! Time for the world, with its big countries and small, to understand that and stop their plans for the nation that lasted over 3000 years ! The world hate the Jews, but destroy them or took an iota from their land is impossible; as it is impossible to stop the day follows night and the night follows day! Those who wants to stop the course of history with 2-state & not build settlements & drawing road maps,etc.. are trying to impose their own interests on history ! History laughed at those like them in the past and will laugh at them eternally ! Sh'ana Tova.

The solution options are clear: 2-state peace, 1-state peace, or more war. My preference, 2-state peace: 1a) Israel acknowledges that the creation of Israel caused suffering to Palestinian Christians and Moslems who were living there and who got displaced. 1b) Palestine acknowledges that Israel exists and that it is a state for the Jewish people. 2a) Israel withdraws to the pre-67 borders. 2b) Palestine absorbs all Palestinian refugees except for a number of Palestinians who will return to pre-67 Israel, a number that is equivalent to the number of Jewish settlers remaining in Palestine. 3) Israel and Palestine share a united Jerusalem as their respective capitals, with the East as the Capital of Palestine and the West as the Capital of Israel. 4) Israel and Palestine enshrine in their respective constitutions explicit protections of minorities as full citizens and of religious freedoms to all Jews, Christians, and Moslems in both countries. Salam aleykom!

Those Jews who wish to remain in a future Palestine are then Palestinian citizens such as the indegenious native Palestinians who live in what is now Israel proper are citizens of Israel. Those Jews must abide by the Palestinian legal system jus as the Palestinians in Israel have to abide by Israeli law.

The defunct armistice lines are a dead lettter. there is a permanent border betwen Israel and Jordan, and it is the Jordan River. The West Bank Arabs are former Jordanian citizens who were left behind. If these ex-Jordanians now called Palestinians,want a state,it will have to be between the Israeli security fence, and the Israeli corridor on the Jordan River.

I predict it won't happen. Several years ago, Arafat (may his memory be forgotten) blustered that if there were no "Palestinian" state by such and such date (I forget exactly when that was), he would unilaterally declare one. He didn't. I believe it won't happen this time either, and for the same reason: The "Palestinians" don't want what they are telling the world they want. They know that if they officially accept a state with such and such borders, they will lose the right to clamor for anything else, in the eyes of the world. They will be expected to act like a civilized nation, and therefore they will not be able to go to war against Israel in order to try to wrest more territory from her, without losing legitimacy and world sympathy.

No military force was used against Apartheid South Africa, but those UNSC resolutions certainly made the position of the Afrikaaners untenable. ....... Israel is immune to any sanctions aimed at helping its palestinian enemies, as Israel can retaliate 10 times harder against its enemies. Israel has the power to withhold water from all the palestinians. cetainly the allies never supplied water to the nazis in ww2 I doubt that even the most extreme jihadis amongst the palaestinians would stay there there more than 3 days without water. the west bankers would flee to jordan and try to destabilise jordan instead of israel. not exactly waht the eu hoped for is it ? duncan

You are 100% right.

If Israel keeps any of the settlements it must not just give land in lieu but also access to similar water resources that the settlements have stolen.

- you know from the outset it won't work. really clever to again postpone jerusalem, the refugee issue as well as "final recognition". so waht you'll have is an "early independent palestinian state" that hasn't recognized israel's right to exist as a jewish state & which israel, of course, won't recognize. plus the unresolved question of jerusalem & refugees, maybe w/some of the final border issues resolved. great peace agreement! i guess the hope is, the UNSC will then make a vague enough resloution reg. the outstanding issues & authorize NATO to go down there & enforce it! i'd like to remind everybody that 16 years ago today, to the day exactly, the ME peace was shining like a bright star over the white house lawn in washington & the whole international community was clapping. let the two sides make a real, final peace agreement & stop fooling everybody around!

The EU has another promise,in two years a Palestinian state.Like theY have promised in Ruanda,and Darfur,and Iran,Somalia,South Lebanon and NK,Cyprus,and Gaza.Have they done anything about those promises?NADA!

Jetusalem and the Palestinian refugees will not be allowed to delay the announcement of an independent Palestinian state. A state without Jerusalem and no return of refugees?.after the announcement of the state they can go to war on the last two issues?. The EU is not only corrupt and biased,it is also incompotent.

No more foot dragging, no more stalling. What will the Israeli right do? All of a sudden time isn't on their side. Obama is going for the Nobel Peace Prize setting million of shackled people free. Free from oppression and slavery.

This article spins like an Iranian centrifuge with its web of wishful thinking but the only real news is the bit that is not mentioned. Abbas has decided to end his boycott of the negotiating table. For what it is worth! He is not a lame duck, he is a dead duck. His mandate has expired. He has no power whatever to deliver the demilitarization of Palestinian society. He can't even release Gilad Shalit!

these points only the least the Arabs must accept if they wish to live in peace and security alongside an independent Israel which is the national home of the Jewish people. I am not sure, however, that their interest is to live in peace and security, witness the Charter of Hamas and the platform of the Fatah. Listen to their leaders' pronouncements in Arabic about Israel and the Jews, and read and view their language of incitement against Jews and the nation-state in the mosques, in schools and in the media. They need to do some house cleaning before convincing us that they truly wish to live in peace alongside a Jewish state.

CJK: "nor would any boycott work. israel has extensive commercial and military relations with many countries outside of europe." If they are member states of the UN then they are bound by Art 25 to accept any "decision" of the UNSC to boycott Israel. ALL. OF. THEM. And, of course, no amount of "commercial activity" will help Israel if the USA refuses to guarantee Israeli loans, because NOBODY will lend money to Israel without those guarantees. And Israel needs those loans to stay afloat, because it doesn't have much in the way of foreign reserves. Commerce between Israel and the rest of the world would therefore cease because (so sorry, Cippie) without those loan guarantees Israel will be exposed as a banana republic. Because those loans are what keeps Israel's economy afloat.

....but Abbas must make it ABUNDANTLY clear to both Israel and the rest of the world, that he will also keep on focusing on the Fayyad plan, namely a unilateral disengagement from Israel and establishment of an independent Palestinian state by the year 2011, should those "negotiations" with the Netanyahu governement go nowhere (as many suspect they will). The one thing that is DEFINITELY NOT acceptable to the Palestinians and the rest of the world, is another 10 years of (broken) promises and so called "temporary solutions"......

What about the idiotic mantra of the US and Europe that nothing should be done to "prejudge the outcome of negotiations?" I guess that only applies to Israel, but not to the PA. Abbas says no and the world beats a path to his door over the carcass of Israel. It's way past time for Israel to say no.

The exact same "generous offer" Barak offered Arafat at Camp David 2000. Rebuttals. #1 It is up to Israel alone to decide what kind of state it wishes to be. #2 Arafat nearly conceded to this as long as compensation and resettlement in a new Palestine was on the agenda. #3 Negative. Jerusalem is holy to Christians and Muslims #4 Land swaps if fair are to be done by a 1:1 ratio #5 Those Jews in the #6 The Palestinians have a right to be armed for self defense purposes, and Israel annexing the Jordan Valley cuts the West Bank into 3 cantons/Bantustans. A non-viable state. #7 A NON RECIPE FOR SOVEREIGNTY.

CJK: "invading and occupying israel in order to enforce any unscr will be impossible." Errr, who said anything about using military force against Israel, Cipora? No military force was used against Apartheid South Africa, but those UNSC resolutions certainly made the position of the Afrikaaners untenable. The UNSC can make the hard-line position of the zionists equally untenable, and not a single shot needs to be fired. You are so laughably zionist, Cipora, in that the *only* answer you can conceive of requires someone to invade someone else. Think again, Cippie.....

fd57: "Hey, while the U.N. is conducting its unilateral border-arranging," Bzzzzzzzzttt!! Wrong answer, but thanks for playing. Read my post again and you'll see that the UNSC WON'T BE re-arranging any borders i.e. all it will be doing is forcing the IDF to withdraw behind an existing ceasefire line. You know, the thing that ceasefire lines EXIST FOR..... That consequences will inevitably flow from that withdrawal does not mean that the UNSC is unilaterally determining them. Nope. It simply means that the UNSC is creating the situation where ABBAS can unilaterally declare his state, and the family of nations can recognize that declaration. Nothing that I posit has the UNSC exceeding its authority W.H.A.T.S.O.E.V.E.R. fd57: "the U.N. doesn`t have the diplomatic, legal or military power to do any of what you`ve proposed?" Yeah, you keep right on believing that, flyingdoc57......

The PA can announce it will announce it's statehood, but until there is a social, physical and economic infrastructe it will not be a viable state. And more important, until the virtual civil war with Hamas is resovled intelligently there can be no functional state. Of the 22 Arab states, there is no single democracy, and the volatile nature of Palestinian politics almost guarantees that it will not be either. Strong arm tactics, tribal loyalties, subordination of woman and minorities mean another dysfunctional entity that will only agree about hostility to Israel, which is not the basis for a functional state. Anounce all you want, PA, it's a change of character and ideology that is needed for true Palestinian statehood, and that means courage and realism, suits in which you have been notoriously weak.

Here what bothers me (1) Having few towns surrounded by a fence and calling that Palestine bothers me. (2) Installing non-elected pawns in Ramalha who have no respect what so ever to human rights or democracy bothers me.

I hope i will live long enough to see all the pals refugees coming back to their HOMELAND...

as long as agreements are between netanyahu and the pa, i shall not personally object. this article imples that a "solution" will be forced upon israel. that i shall fight till the end. i shall also fight any american attempt to sell out israel. you should also understand that what i post represents the majority opinion in israel.

ignorance is never bliss. israel's much hated fm lieberman has just signed major agreements with african countries. some of these countries have oil. they do not care one bit about the palestinian issue. lieberman was accompanied by a large contingent of experts, including military and agriculture. he was given a red carpet treatment. israel also has very important commercial and military ties with india. furthermore, oil is now bought on the international market. israel gets some of its supply from egypt. there are also very large natural gas deposits off the coast of israel which will be developed.

I realize renewal a word so often used utilized to demand Israel offer more Israel has nothing left to offer the Arabs nothing more to demand the same differences will exist a million years from now unless more radicial things miracles happen alas miracles are needed not renewals RIGHT ??? Thank You... M. S.

Those would be terms Netanyahu and Abbas have agreed to, apparently with Obama, if the story is accurate. Horrors, they might actually talk peace. Worse still they might come to an agreement and then Israelis and Palestinians would have plebiscites to ratify. And if that happens, its likely nobody in the US or Europe will get a vote. Imagine Israelis and Palestinians making peace despite their Diasporas.

Why the Palestinian still crying, now they have the choice to move Venezuela ;-)

1. Recognition of Israel's right to be, to exist as the nation-state of the Jewish people 2. No Arab "refugee" may settle in sovereign Israeli territory 3. Jerusalem will remain sovereign Israeli territory and the capital city of Israel and the Jewish people 4. Jewsish blocs of settlements will be incorporated into sovereign Israeli territory and in exchange Arab blocs of settlements, e.g. in the Triangle and Ara Valley, will become part of the new Arab political entity 5. Jews living in Samara and Judea will remain to do so, just as Arabs inside Israel will stay put 6. The new Arab political entity will be totally demilitarized and parts of it, e.g. Jordan Valley, hill tops, will remain under Israeli control for security purposes 7. All border passings - land, sea and air - will be under Israel's control for security purposes

Boycot? Heh. Think big, like Gaza. Or, the Arabs could cut off the oil supply. Or, agreements could be ignored just like Israel does. The possabilities are limitless.

Educate yourself on how the Arabs lost their claim to the 1967 borders with Michael Oren's "Six Days of War". Otherwise, stick to subjects like Agriculture or Mining. Your trite comments demonstrate that you know nothing about Zionism or our legitimate national struggle against those who seek our destruction.

So New Palestine will be fixing its own potholes, stringing electrical lines, doing water wells, sewers, cable TV, cellphone, internet, railroads, schools, health care, etc, all on the sale of olive wood trinkets? Actually, the present Pals do much better getting all this off Israel, and with the UNRWA handouts and blackmail for not doing terrorism, they are the best off of any Arab country, GNP per capita and life expectancy. Don't look now, but this is going to be a major step down.

...and that delights me muchly.

Embedded religio-nationalist-fanatical settlements embedded in Palestine are unthinkable, and any other kind of Israeli enclaves slicing deep into palestinian territory are likewise nonsense. This will leave only the settlements contiguous with the Green Line as trading options for land of equal value, including water, etc, etc. If such equal land can not be found, nor accepted, then those settlements must yield to the peace proccess and be liquidated by Israel.

"And what`s this about unilaterally elevating the status of the old, temporary armistice line of 1949-1967..." I have a better idea. Let's go back to the borders set up by the UN partition. If Israel doesn't like it they can get the heck out of the UN. One of the rules the UN established forbids member states from expanding their border by the use of force. Before you even reply, spare us the Zionist line that Israel has only engaged in "defensive wars."

If you ever decide to do something more with your life than spend it on an Israeli newspaper's website, you could probably make a good fiction writer. Hey, while the U.N. is conducting its unilateral border-arranging, why not have some real fun? Let's have the U.N. "decide" to return the U.S. borders back to 1776, and each of Europe's Country's border back to, say, 1500. Also, it could have Canada and Russia exchange places, so that Russia and U.S. share a border. It could be like one big game of "Risk", the popular board game. Isn't it a shame, though, that in the 'real world', the U.N. doesn't have the diplomatic, legal or military power to do any of what you've proposed? But, then, reality was never your forte, was it? You need to stick to fiction writing...you're rather good at it.

you never stop posting nonsense. the unsc can pass whatever they want. israel will do wahtever is in its interest. israel is not a banana republic. invading and occupying israel in order to enforce any unscr will be impossible. you and others who think that a solution can be imposed on israel are fools. it cannot be done. nor would any boycott work. israel has extensive commercial and military relations with many countries outside of europe. nor would a unilateral declaration of a state by the pa have any real significance. not only does the pa not control gaza, the west bank and gaza are geographically separated by sovereign israeli territory. p.s. don't bother citing oslo which is dead.

the arabs are blackmailing all of europe. the uk let the lockerbie terrorist out and have agreed not to prosecute a lybian terrorist who had murdered a policewoman in exchange for trade. the europeans and the present american administration would sell out israel for a shekel. if memory serves, you were critical of the u.s. national security advisor. the entire foreign policy team is weak and pacifist. obama is a tiers mondist. they have just issued orders that detainees in afghanistan be given american legal representation. yet they have turned over hundreds of iraqui detainees to iraq where torture is as prevelant as under saddam. nor have they stopped renditions. the hypocrisy and anarchy in the u.s. adminastration are unbelievable. best regards, cipora

Peace may yet come to be! May God help us to make it so.

Would this include gaza? If so, then any rocket launch from gaza would be seen as an attack from WB. All PALs will be treated the same no matter if they are fatah or hamas. All for one and one for all.

JN: "And what`s this about unilaterally elevating the status of the old, temporary armistice line of 1949-1967 between Israel and the Jordanian occupied West Bank to the status of being a permanent border with complete disregard of current demographics, Holy Places, security, and the like?" As-easy-as. A new Chapter VII UNSC resolution "decides" that the IDF must withdraw back to the Armistice Line of 1948. No need for any "status elevation" of that Armistice Line, since the UNSC is simply using it for its INTENDED purpose. The moment is withdrawal is complete ABBAS can stand up and proclaim the state of Palestine within the territory under his jurisdiction, and everyone will recognize that new state and the UN will rush thru its membership. Now, Jeff, where DOES that leave Israel?

Israelis will never agree to return to borders the Arabs attempted to erase in 1967 in their failed war of annihilation. Those borders have now been blurred into oblivian by continued Jewish settlement. The Arabs will never agree to Netanyahu's conditions for a Palestinian State: Demilitarization, Recognition of Israel as a Jewish State with undivided Jerusalem as its capital, and no return to Israel of those claiming to be of Palestinian origin. Such conditions that would prevent the destruction of Israel will be categorically rejected by the Arabs, while continued Jewish settlement will prevent Judea and Samaria on the "West Bank" of the Jordan from becoming a launching pad for Iranian rockets.

'Due to the Palestinians' reservations over establishing a state with temporary borders, as was proposed during the second stage of the road map, this step will probably be defined as "early recognition" of Palestine.' Israel has been living with armistice lines instead of borders, and little or no recognition from its neighbours, for over 60 years. To say I'm unsympathetic to the Palestinian's 'reservations' is a gross understatement. They could have had their state years upon years ago; instead they continue banging on about their distaste for 'temporary borders' and the fact they can't take over the Kotel and the rest of Jerusalem, and their fictional refugee's 'right of return'. I wish the Palestinians well: I want them to get their own state and then SHUT UP! MV

This is a nationalist-religious Israeli government. The idea that it is just going to hand over a state to the Palestinians is laughable. There are some dreamers around here..

What wll they do if Israel say no to thier demands.Israel say agree withdraw only so much West Bank. WIll EU and many be Wolrd go to war against Israel. It will be the last war the Human race fights. Israel boi-weapons and nuclear weapons will take world down with them.

By the EU and the Palestinians without Israel having any say in the matter? Wow, what will the Europeans think of next? And what's this about unilaterally elevating the status of the old, temporary armistice line of 1949-1967 between Israel and the Jordanian occupied West Bank to the status of being a permanent border with complete disregard of current demographics, Holy Places, security, and the like? No mention of the Gaza Strip in any of this either I see. I'm sure that Hamas will just be overjoyed to be completely left out of this half-assed, unilateral, European "peace plan". I guess that the fall of the Ottoman Empire went to the Europeans' heads and now they're trying to fix what they broke 90 years later.

Israel has carried out a de facto annexation of the West Bank and remains the overlord of Gaza. Sure, they'll allow the Palestinians to elect their own dog catchers, and they can issue Palestinian stamps and sing their own anthem and even have an Olympic ping-pong team. What they cannot have is sovereignty. They cannot have an army, foreign alliances of their choice and an independent economy. (Although Israel claims the right to all of these.) Give up the charade, guys. Its already a bi-national state; only with one side that has all the power. (That's called apartheid.)

EU and Pal sources indeed!

...it's been a long time coming. The Barracks Lawyer will be besides himself, and Arie should be deciding on his new Syrian citizenship because that issue will surely come to the fore as well. As good as this news is, nevertheless, it's what many of us have been stressing for years. Reality has finally caught up to Israel. Yay!

I guess Abbas changed his mind and decided maybe a meeting was worth the wait. And Bibi changed his mind too? Let's see if this story line lasts beyond tomorrow.

"Based on" does not mean "the same as". It means the 1967 lines with adjustments each way. And the idea that Israel must offer part of its pre-1967 territory in exchange for keeping the major settlements is old news dating back at least to the Yossi Beilin-Abu Mazen talks of 1995 and reprised at Camp David in 2000, Taba 2001, etc etc. As usual you are suffering from a bad case of premature prognostication. Don't pop your champagne cork yet.

"It is understood that this will be accompanied by a public American and European declaration that the permanent border will be based on the border of June 4, 1967." Ouch, indeed.... You know what that will mean, don't you? Israel can't simply demand that it be given the settlements because.... well.... because it wants them. No, that argument will no longer be possible. Israel will have to offer something in return for each settlement, because that statement will make clear that each settlement Israel "keeps" is the result of a CONCESSION FROM THE PALESTINIANS, while each one tat Israel "gives away" is NOT A CONCESSION BY ISRAEL.