EU initiative: Recognition of Palestinian state by next year

You obviously are not well informed about the capabilities of Arab intelligence services and there great value to the US. The most effective US allies in war against radical Islamic terrorism are our Arab allies. Countries like Saudi Arabia are in the front line, along with Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait and the Gulf states. They provide the US superb intelligence and military support. Jordan is one of the most effective services in the world against Al Qaeda. Recently, over a 4-day period, the Saudis killed 15 members of Al Qaeda, and they have over 200 in prison. It is also supporting Yemen with air strikes against Islamic terrorist elements (Al Qaeda). Israel is not involved in this fight. It talks big but considers Hamas and Hezbollah its primary terrorist targets. But they don't attack the US nor other nations involved in the fight, and are considered by everybody, but Israel, to be small potatoes, and not worthy of attention. How many Al Qaeda members has Israel killed and imprisoned?

If you,re so keen to share Lanos then open your border to the 6th century camel herders of Arabia,although what they can actually contribute to Iceland,s economy is beyond me ,maybe tunnel building or something along that line ?

If you think you know it all then stick with the inept,amateur Arab intelligence services ,like the one that had a double agent blow up 7 CIA operatives ,how revealing?

Easy now Nadav you really are upsetting the Catholics ?

Well the French and Spanish govt.are eager to sell them arms so maybe these Palestinians think that they will get free lunches again ,UNRWA style ?

Let them sweat it out a bit longer it should do them some good ,David?

The EU like it,s Arab counterpart ,the Arab League is useless ,inept ,corrupt and sinking in it,s own mess with Greece ,Spain ,Portugal and others in dire straits and others to follow ,time for a new world order,guess who?

And also try and translate and understand correct ly the May 1948 mandate of two nations ,living side by side,in peace and prosperity ,it shouldn,t take 60 plus years to understand this ?

Talking about panicking ,well Spain is in dire financial straits in the Euro zone and desperately need some hard cash ,so how much does the govt. of Spain need from Israel as t350 -00 he interest rate ,for the socialist Catholics is set at % 45 take it or leave but not on Shabbas(Saturday)?

The question that needs answering right away is how much is the pending arms sale to Palestine and who,s paying it ?

SDHD: "Territories have borders, you utter numbskull." SDHD does not understand the fundamental difference between: Withdrawal *FROM* occupied territory and Withdrawal *TO* a border. A hint for my dim friend: only the latter requires "a border", while the former certainly doesn't. Indeed, the very definition of "occupation" requires no "borders" of any kind, because it is measured entirely by the authority of the army of occupation. Article 42, Hague Regulations IV, 1907, if you want to look it up. "The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised." You point of order is therefore pointless i.e. it is perfectly possible to unwind an occupation without the (ex)occupier having to withdraw *to* a border. All that is required is that you define the territorial extent of the occupation, and then you tell that occupier to get the f**k outta there.

ks: "What an irresponsible move." Why, exactly, ks? After all, the EU recognizes Israel as a state, and it doesn't have defined borders. ks: "EU should force the PA to recognize Israel before a state which has no meaning to the arabs." The PLO formally recognized the right of the state of Israel to live in peace and security back in 1993, ks. The govt of Israel did not return the favour, and still hasn't. ks: "They could have had a state many times." An independent, contiguous, viable, sovereign state? No, ks, if couldn't have. ks: "This is not a battle of territory it is a battle of ideology." Then why is Israel colonizing this territory, ks? ks: "Why don`t the French put their children next to a group created to destroy them." And the funny thing is that Ahmadinejad say exactly the same thing about the reason why the state of Israel was created in amongst the Arabs of Palestine. He's a racist, religious bigot, ks. So what does that make you?

For those not familiar with internals of Canada, the country's largest (areawise--it ranks second in population) province has long and oft been raising threat of separation from rest-of-Canada (most stridently when the country has QC-born Prime Minister). However, it is economically unviable for Quebec to be independent nation--as its economy relies on transfer payments from Ottawa. In the case of "Palestinian state", the case is even worse; "Palestinians" are descendants of three Old Testament nations/tribes--specifically Edomites, Moabites and Ammonites--all of whom were divinely proscribed from ever re-establishing as a nation/kingdom; the fact that even Arab nations DO NOT want a "Palestinian state" (though they shill much for it, their actions since 1948 show their hypocrisy) is a sign of this!

As foreign minister, Shimon Peres oversaw negotiations with Jordan, which would lead to it taking control of the West Bank. The PM at the time, Shamir, killed the idea and determined a border agreement with Jordan over the heads of the Palestinians that has lasted until today. Why go back on that? Jordan has since withdrawn the offer.

Israel before a state which has no meaning to the arabs. They could have had a state many times. This is not a battle of territory it is a battle of ideology. Why don't the French put their children next to a group created to destroy them

invective, SDHD. "How are the Jews stealing their own properties back? Properties which they were only absent from for 19 years?" I said illegally stealing LAND, not 'properties'. Why the little contrived change, SDHD? Answers: * There were very few Jews in the West Bank in 1947. Outside west J'sem, there were a few tiny communities. Jews had not been 'absent these lands for 19 years' but 2,000+. It is an historical record. * Zio tales of all these Jews being thrown out of by the Jordanians is just myth. We are talking hundreds, not thousands. (cf 811,000 Pals forced out of Israel and their homes, businesses and land stolen!). * All that belongs to modern Israel is what it was given in 1947. It has no legal or rightful claim to one dunam more. Land that is illegally seized, coerced, obtained by bent laws or other mafia means does not transfer sovereignty. No court on the planet buys ancient ethnic land claims or illegal land theft. Please come up with a valid point sometime.

zf: "242 says nothing about a full Israel withdraw it talks about Israel returning TERRITORIES no ALL TERRITORY the UN intentionally worded it thay way because nobody expected Israel to give up everything." Read it again: "Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles: Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;" Logically your statement is false i.e. if Israel does NOT withdraw from all of the occupied territories then that principle CAN NOT BE MET. According to Res 242 that means there can NEVER be peace, because one of the two vital principles *for* *peace* will NEVER be met. So sooner or later someone will have to come along and make the IDF withdraw from the West Bank; Res 242 guarantees that eventual outcome.

Michael: ""the EU steps in and kicks Israel out of the West Bank" 17: "You mean that after European attempts to annihilate Jews in Europe they will come for Jews in ME?" No, 17, he couldn't have meant that because he didn't say that. He said that the EU could come in an kick an army of occupation out of territory that it is occupying. Only YOU are suggesting that the EU would attempt a "holocaust" of the Jews; after all, Michael's suggestion does not REQUIRE a single fatality at all. 17: "You probably do not realize what will happen to London." What would happen to London, 17? I know that British missiles and planes can make the distance from London to Tel Aviv but how - exactly - would the IDF's dinky little planes return the favour? They'd get as far as... oh, let's be charitable... Gibraltar... but then the pilots would have to get out and push it the rest of the way. Your arrogance is such a laugh, 17, and is matched only by your ignorance.

... have never understood why SDHD is not consummating his ideology on some WB hilltop outpost, instead of remaining so safe & vociferous on his perch in a distant land...

The subject is not Jews, it is Israelis. Particularly Israelis transfered to territories occupied by Israel in 1967. Against international law. And that old dribble about the missing work is nothing. You can only use what is actually in the document, so "territories occupied" is the qualifier. If the territory is occupied by Israelis as a result of the war in 1967, the occupation is illegal. Plain and simple.

"The Basque country was never invaded nor it was colonized by a foreign army as it happens with Palestine by the IDF. " The IDF isn't a "foreign army." It is an army comprised of part of the population which once existed throughout the region of Palestine, but the peoples and the territories were fractured in civil war. You think Jews weren't living throughout Palestine prior to 1948?

John, what do you stand for? Simple-minded racism?

"It does not say that the IDF must withdraws to any borders - negotiated or otherwise - precisely because it says that the IDF must withdraw FROM TERRITORY, and not TO BORDERS." Territories have borders, you utter numbskull. "You believe in "negotiated borders"?" Can't you read? "So do I, fool." You could have simply said so, instead of re-parroting the 242 verbiage, idiot. "But unlike you I understand what it means IF ISRAEL CAN NOT ARMTWIST THE PALS INTO AGREEING TO THE BORDERS THAT IT WANTS." Listen, moron, I don't believe Israel can arm-twist the Palestinians into agreeing with anything either. But, thanks for making a stupid assumption anyway. You always do. "Israel will eventually have to withdraw from "territory occupied in the recent conflict"." It already did, dunce. "once Israel`s "facts on the ground" are gone then so does ANY Israeli leverage." There's no need for Jews to remove themselves from 100% of the territories, gibbering twit.

the war in the Middle East with the result of expulsion of Arabs from most of the disputed territories, influx of arab refugees into Jordan, annexion of the disputed territories to the state of Israel, collaps of Damascus regime and tremendous destruction of Lebanon.

The Basque country was never invaded nor it was colonized by a foreign army as it happens with Palestine by the IDF. No basque people have been spelled from their homeland. Basque autonomy emanates from the Spanish Constitution which is the law frame in which we operate in this country. All basque people are equal to any other spanish or foreign person living in this country. In the Basque country we do not execute people without trial, we do not demolish homes nor do we practice collective punishment. We do not allow tolerate or condone preventive killings without trial and we do not have institutionalized racism against another people.

There are many no-go Muslim areas in Israel, India, Europe and the UK where it is much too dangerous for non-Muslims to enter. For the Sole unjust reason Jews are not Muslim, US/EU Demand Jew Cleansing from Judea-Samaria and Jerusalem. No new settlements. Building/settlement freeze. No natural growth - Will US/EU demand Jews have abortions? Jew-haters would murder every last Jew if they could. Will New York, Paris and London be next? French and Spanish Jew-haters are eager to break the law: The 1976 International Convention for Civil and Political Rights, prohibits all forms of discrimination against people on the basis of religion and nationality.

SDHD: "I believe in negotiated borders." Read Resolution 242 again, SDHD. It does not say that the IDF must withdraws to any borders - negotiated or otherwise - precisely because it says that the IDF must withdraw FROM TERRITORY, and not TO BORDERS. You believe in "negotiated borders"? So do I, fool. But unlike you I understand what it means IF ISRAEL CAN NOT ARMTWIST THE PALS INTO AGREEING TO THE BORDERS THAT IT WANTS. So does the EU i.e. in the absence of "negotiated borders" then Israel will eventually have to withdraw from "territory occupied in the recent conflict". It will then have to negotiate the borders FROM THERE; not that there will be much to "negotiate", because once Israel's "facts on the ground" are gone then so does ANY Israeli leverage.

Pay absolutely no attention to SDHD.We have determined it stands for STUPID DUMB HEARTLESS DEMON!!!

Vladek is right. Israel will go running to the US as usual, but hopefully the Obama administration will realise that the Europeans have the best solution. Negotiations will go on getting nowhere. Only an imposed solution based on the Arab proposal of 2002 will give Israel security and a certain amount of justice for the Palestinians.

It will be the end of Israel if they do that to Europe.

Israel prefers negotiations because that policy has no end and no Palestinian state will ever be created.

First of all, the EU trying to create any sort of global policy is a joke; good luck with that. Second of all, the EU is a house of cards, and might not even survive the financial crisis; Greece is just the beginning. This is yet another empty gesture.

Sir, You mean that after European attempts to annihilate Jews in Europe they will come for Jews in ME? You probably do not realize what will happen to London.

I see you make no efforts. Palestinians have institutions and laws. They organised many elections and proved to the world they can act democratically. If this people is kept under occupation and if they're denied their legitimate right to have a State, one should expect some frustration, anger and (unfortunately) violence. I hope you got that ? and playing with the political parties There IS an occupation that you deny with no shame. You simply ignore it. So there's no way you'll understand what i'm talking about. Voilà !

Its quite a sight to see Israelis threatening a nuclear war with Europe.You are becoming a irrational nation, filled with hubris and paranoia.Currently you seem to be threatening Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Iran and Dubai with war, while threatening the EU with a nuclear conflict unless we do as you want. Crazy. I used to support you.

the goals of a Palestinian State on the East side of the 1967 Green Line / Borders. Lots of Precious time and UNNECESSARY deaths on both sides been wasted since 1967, to find solutuions to this LLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOONNNNNGGGGGG conflict. After all the Partioned of the British Mandate does give the Arabs Mulim/ christians 45 % of the lands, So they are taking 22%, should please the Israelis.

Even if the plan was implemented, there would be more Jews than there are Arabs in the designated areas that were suppose to form an Arab state according to the Partition. This would mean that the Palestinian State would be predominantely Jewish according to the UN Partition and the residents in these areas today, Again, your plan is not what the Palesitnians need, nor is it in their interests unless of course Israelis in these areas were to be expelled, creating a bigger refugee problem not only amongst Israeli Jews, but also Israeli Arabs. The idea is as stupid as it gets. Only a person who has no understanding of Israeli and Palestinians affairs would advocate or promote such a ridiculous idea today.

"However Bush was elected for his second term thanks to a wonderful military intervention in Iraq...something to think about." Which doesn't support allegations of impropriety in the first election. "Plus, i dare to think you would not even try to compare the situation in the Palestinian territories and the USA ?" You're the one who initiated a comparison. "We`re in a situation of occupation and, unfortunately, collaboration." You're in a situation where you launched a 90-year-old ethnic war. You wouldn't be "occupied" had you accepted any number of offers. And don't preach to me about teaching the U.S. about elections when you come up with excuses for throwing members of an opposing party from rooftops. "I suppose you have enough historical knowledge to remember the tragic fate of collaborators throughout world`s history ?" Label Fatah as collaborators, murder them, preach about fair elections and lecture the U.S. on how to conduct elections. How quaint.

There's a valid copy of UNGAR181 on the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs website, along with a nice map showing the original partition plan. If Israel uses the endorsement of the resolution as ratification of its very existence and legality, then surely it also has to accept the defined borders of the resolution. Perhaps you suffer from the same disease as some other Israelis and their sycophants when it comes to interpretation of International Law - selective amnesia!

Good point. However Bush was elected for his second term thanks to a wonderful military intervention in Iraq...something to think about. Plus, i dare to think you would not even try to compare the situation in the Palestinian territories and the USA ? We're in a situation of occupation and, unfortunately, collaboration. I suppose you have enough historical knowledge to remember the tragic fate of collaborators throughout world's history ? This is also what happens under occupation. Tragically.

"There is no feasible solution on the horizon while Israel keeps stealing land, illegally settling occupied territory and bumping off protesters and opponents. " Cummings even believes that Jews are stealing their own properties back... Properties which they were only absent from for 19 years. Tell us, puddinhead... How are the Jews stealing their own properties back? How do you steal something from someone if that something never belonged to that someone in the first place? How does targeting and killing terrorists amount to bumping off protestors? Didn't your mommy ever punish you for being a deceitful liar?

"Palestinians can teach Americans how to organize proper elections in Florida ?? How about that ?" How about your explaining why Bush was overwhelmingly elected for a second term? Plus, you can explain what was improper in Florida, and what is proper about throwing members of an opposing party off of rooftops.

that they caused in 1967. Therefore, Jordan should take over the West Bank and Egypt the Gaza Strip. If they then want to set up a "Palestinian state", let them, but the truth, no one in the Middle East really wants a "Palestinian state", only the European are willing to push for it while keeping real peoples, e.g. Basques, Roma, Catalan, in their back yard stateless.

I am trying to envision the implementation of UN General Assembly Resolution 181 in the realistic nature of Israel and the West Bank today. This would pretty much mean that a Palestinian state would be a bi national state if you were to leave residents in place, while the Jewish State will be almost completely Jewish. Under such a plan, Lod, Ramle, BeerSheva, Acco, Nahariyah, Modiin, Ariel, Maaleh Adumim, Mevaseret Tzion, Beitar Illit, Shoham, Maccabim Reut, Shavei Shomron Settelment Block, Nazareth Illit, Carmiel, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Gilo, Beit Shemesh and so many other cities (this does not even include towns), would fall under a Palestian State, while also leaving it predomoninantly Jewish. Now, do you think this is realistic, unless of course you are advocating for the removal of all Jews within these lands? Any agreement for a viable state in the West Bank and Gaza has to provide a corridor, facilitated by Israel. That is why, any unilateral proclomation is useless.

Hilarious ! I had never heard that one before ! Keep dreaming Roger !

a Palestinian state in 1988 and the whole world is still dancing to his tune. Aren't we mature enough to realize it was his way of eliminating Israel by stages: one piece of land at a time? Time to stop this game and apply United Nations Resolution 242, in which case Jordan will need to take care of the West Bank and Egypt of the Gaza.

I am trying to picture Europeans once again holding a map of Israel and the West Bank and carving out another Partition Plan. Anyone who thinks the armistice line of of 1949 is still relevant has clearly no sense of understanding. They should leave it upto the Israelis and Palestinians to figure out issues on borders. Regarding Jerusalem, I doubt Israelis and Palestinians could manage any agreement. Maybe here they can help, but thats about it.

While Israeli opinion is of concern, my reference to a divided house was to the rift between different factions amidst Palestinians. Israels unilateral disegagement from the Gaza Strip, along with Hamas' legitimization in the elections shortly after that, pretty much killed the peace camp in Israel. Israelis, while supportive of a two state solution, are not looking forward to the repercussions of a military disengagement from the West Bank without there being any agreements between the parties. Unilateral disengagments and proclomations are recipes for disasters. There are two many groups claiming to be the "representatives" of the Palestinian people. Without Palestinian unity and cooperation from Israel, there is little chance for a functioning state. Israel will eventually have to carry many of its settlers out kicking and screaming, as Israel did in Gaza, yet many of the settelments along the green line will remain under Israeli sovereignty.

I will start with the easier 'contra' option: 1. I believe Abbas himself does not agree to a partial peace agreement. He wants all the issues resolved first. He knows that the "temporary" might become permanent, especially with borders that include about 40% of the West Bank. I believe he is actually right. Fayyad is a fine man, but with little public following. 2. With a Palestinian state, tensions will grow on the ground and incident will multiply, Israel will not be able to exert enough control (such as entering an arresting people in "free" Palestine. 1. The new situation might make it easier to push the US to pressure Israel to change its policy of delaying forever. 2. Likud cannot ideologically accept even a small state in the West Bank, and Netanyahu the weak leader will not persuade it. Likud will fall under the pressure, perhaps even split apart, giving a chance for progress. I vote for the EU initiative. We have to move ahead of dated ideologies and messiah myths.

If the EU concept is a two state solution for the Palestinian territories, then surely they must recognize not just the Palestinian state, but also the borders originally envisaged in UNGAR181 - with one contiguous state linking Gaza and the West Bank - without that any Palestinian state will not be viable.

242 says nothing about a full Israel withdraw it talks about Israel returning TERRITORIES no ALL TERRITORY the UN intentionally worded it thay way because nobody expected Israel to give up everything. It does not mention palestinians or a palestinian state even once. 242 was supposed to apply to Israel, Jordan, Egypt and Syria only. If we are going to be using 242 as the UN envisioned it and not how palestinians version then Israel would negotiate returning land to Egypt and Jordan no palestinian state in any borders. Palestinians will get nothing at all.

and the PA negotiate the borders beforehand. It's not surprising that there's impatience with the current stalemate in negotiations but for a true peace can only be achieved through serious engagement and recognizing one another's presence in the Middle East. Hamas has derailed the process with affiliation to Iranian interests, the last few decades. By introducing them into the equation, a resolution becomes more and more difficult. This makes the situation more complex for the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza to establish an independent state alongside Israel.

The palestinians have said they will not accept a state in tempory borders. Israel is not going to just sit down and let them declare a state unilaterally in borders of their choosing especially if that involves Jerusalem. Unless its negotiated and accepted by Israel it wont work The EU cant force Israel to close settlements The EU cant force Israel to divide Jerusalem The EU can't force Israel to provide any kind of corridor connecting the 2 parts of the state. The EU can't dictate things like water rights The EU can't force Israel to accept right of return & Abbas can't agree to give up the demand A negotiated solution might take longer and it will run into plenty of hurdles but BOTH sides will have come to this agreement together. Any agreement thats not mutually satisfactory will lead to a war so the palestinians will have a state but it will be a state at war and would be hard to negotiate a ceasefire because a border will have unilaterally been decided which Israel won't accept

The EU can declare whatever version of Ipso Facto Palestinian Nonsense they want. Making it a reality on the ground is a completely different process. That will still require sitting down for negotiations by a reluctant Palestinian Rep. The fact is, if there is no negotiation, there will be no realistic state for Palestinians. One in name only, is no reality. You want something? Then actually sit down to negotiate rather than trying to wish and badger your way into it. Face the facts. You gotta give something to get something in return, a facet of negotiation that seems to elude everyone in the PA from the top down. Threats, bad attempts at intimidation and usurpation, lack of cooperation, pride and arrogance and the ever present wish to actually eliminate a Jewish homeland, keeps the PA from achieving their dreams...so dream on, then wake up Dorothy!

Europeans cannot be entrusted to know what is right for Jews. Historically, the opposite is generally true. Not a stretch here.

A united EU could close down Israel tomorrow. Just ban EU trade with Israel and Israel's finished. Now obviously I don't suppose that's going to happen, but the the trouble is that AIPAC's power makes the US incapable of putting any real pressure whatsoever on Israel, so either the war goes on forever (or until Israel loses) or the EU steps in and kicks Israel out of the West Bank.

and most realistic option to resolve the Arab Israeli conflict: Gaza to Egypt and West Bank to Jordan, and end of story.

I'm all for the Palestinians living sovereign side-by-side with Israel. But the rump government next door cannot provide the basics of state functions internally. Were there no Israeli presence in the West Bank Hamas would long ago have taken up residence there also. With all respect to Fayad, he is a voice in the wilderness. Fateh is apparently as rife with corruption today as ever, secular compared to Hamas, but according to what I read, not representative of the Palestinians. Abbas is and always has been a weakling, unable despite his background as peace negotiator in the past, to muster the courage to engage Israel meaningfully.

I'm all for the Palestinians living sovereign side-by-side with Israel. But the rump government next door cannot provide the basics of state functions internally. Were there no Israeli presence in the West Bank Hamas would long ago have taken up residence there also. With all respect to Fayad, he is a voice in the wilderness. Fateh is apparently as rife with corruption today as ever, secular compared to Hamas, but according to what I read, not representative of the Palestinians. Abbas is and always has been a weakling, unable despite his background as peace negotiator in the past, to muster the courage to engage Israel meaningfully.

You worry about Palestine attacking Israel after independence. Why would they do that if they've got the Israelis out? Fayyad and Abbas are not Arafat and Meshal. Attacks from the West Bank have anyway virtually ceased under the new Pal troops. There is no reason to believe that, with EU assistance, Palestine will be any more of a threat than Jordan or Egypt. I think Israelis do tend to read everything closely in the hope of finding a flaw. Palestinian sovereignty will not at all be 'at question'. If it is recognised as independent and with sovereignty over its territory by the UN, that's it, game over, Israel can make no more unilateral territorial demands. And nobody is talking about recognising Palestine under 'a divided house', by which I assume you mean Israeli 'claims' to the land. If the EU recognises Palestine, that is a matter between these two, Israel is not in the equation. If it has 'disputed land' issues, it can always try its luck in the international courts.

1) PA loses all access to sovereign Israeli crossings, harbors and airports - no "international law" can force access. Massive supply of water/electricity stops 2) Gaza loses all Israeli electricity and water, fuel deliveries end. Crossings close permanently - hundreds of food trucks/week stop. Nada comes/leaves via Israel, a sovereign country which can't be forced by any "law" to deal anything to Gaza or provide any services. 3) Any Gaza acts of war (rockets fired into Israel) become W. Bank acts of war, Israel entitled to retaliate against any PA state targets it chooses. 100% allowed by international law. Ongoing Hamas warfare closes Gaza port, airspace. 4) Israel annexes any parts of W. Bank it chooses, ESPECIALLY entire Rift Valley border strip with Jordan (or lets Jewish residents declare independence - much cleaner legally!). NO ACCESS of PA state to Jordan River bridges (Jordan won't intervene-peace treaty with Israel). 5) So what will EU jackasses do then, start WW3?

Its clear that some Europeans could care less about Israelis or Palestinians. France and Spain are willing to toss Palestinians under the bus by declaring the recognition of a Palestinians State under such conditions, in turn leaving its sovereignty at question when Israel legitimately responds to any attacks and hostilities arising from within the Palestinians jurisdiction. In return, these two clowns will demand "restraint" in the face of terror. The recognition of a Palestinian State under a divided house can not work and is in now way in the interests of the Palestinians and their aspiration for a state living side by side along Israel. While Israel is in part to blame for the ongoing occupation, the Palestinias are just as equally responsible for their situation. Positive choices on matters or state have never been their strength.

1) did Israel recognize Palestine ? no 2) did Israel abide by prior agreements ? no 3) did Israel terminate hostilities against the Palestinians ? no You complain about Hamas but Israel has never ever done any of the above AND the situation is even worse now. Please try again.

Thank you Mr. Koucner and Mr. Moratinos - the main issue is to break the dead-lock - in some cases this can only be done by a reversed dynamic - in this case putting the end - notably, naming it - equally dreaded by both parties, up front. Gerda

Palestinians can teach Americans how to organize proper elections in Florida ?? How about that ? Thanks for the lesson SDHD palestinians don't need your lousy moral.

Time to recognize the Basque region as an autonomous nation-state?

Israeli sovereignty and will also incorporate the suburb communities of Givat Zeev, Maaleh Adumim and Gush Etzion. 2)The Jordan Valley, in its widest definition, will remain part of Israel. 3)A Palestinian state will not be really a state. (Speech at the Knesset, Oct. 1995). What Rabin perceived as a "Palestinian state" matched that which Netanyahu describes in his Bar Ilan speech and neither contradict the thrust of the UN Security Council Resolution 242. 242 does not mention the setting up of an additional state in the region at all, nor does 242 mention concepts such as "Palestine", "Palestinians" or "Palestinian state". Reality is the even under the best of circumstance, and they are certainly not good, an independent "Palestinian state" simply is not sustainable. The only realistic solution, therefore, is the implementation, as is, of UNSC Resolution 242: West Bank reverts for the most part to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt.

We are all weary of the elusive peace in the ME. And certainly all blame cannot go to one side. But declaring the war over and the peace established solves none of the underlying issues between a state governed by Jews in the region and the rejection of the very idea by the region itself. In fact current factors should bode well for some form of accommodation between Arab and Jew confronting Iran. THAT is a common interest. If, even facing the nuclear threat the Arabs are unwilling to join with Israel, then any resolution in the coming decades is fantasy. Unless Israel and the Arabs come to agreement there can be no peace. Peace is not a paper reflecting frustration by bystanders at the process.

They are about to turn into a banana republic. What are they going to call this new state, Hamastan? These euro need to get of their meds and get real

EU is a mighty and mature. It has been building its unity for many years and is now in peaceful cooperation within itself covering 27 democratic states and 500 million people. That is 200 million people more than US. EU is a strong supporter of democratic values and human rights and is now this latest year, come to organize its foreign policy, rendering it unwise to taker light on its proclamations, by a tiny state that makes out 0,1 % of the global population. If the Palestinians have the hearts of the Europeans it can count on a stabile, support for years to come. Israel is in the European song contest. Soon we will have the Palestinians in there to.

Before 'recognition of a palestinian state' the eu must ask the palestinians to omit the destruction of the israel from their charters ! an agenda which by far spell all kinds of evil intentions. No country can be built 'side by side' that from the start hates its neighbor ?! This joke of the 'palestinian moderates' made them no better than the other palestinians by the simple fact that all palestinians share in the writing of the palestinian 'charters' that call to destroy israel ! blaming israel for not wanting peace is a lie that hides an ugly crime. time to look at the details & avoid the rhetorical ! the palestinian- arab are good if not very good at the rhetorical & that is why they are keep losing !

Nonsense. We who support the palestinian cause have in all these years applied the wrong approach: 2states are not possible. Israel has a right(historical/sentimental etc) to this land as much as the palestinians. You can not divide something that each person will always claim as theirs; it must be shared. One state within which all are equal and afforded the same protections under the law, without prejudice or discrimination (jobs, education, religion, social services etc). This has gone on long enough.

... meanwhile...

that want to hold on to territory faulty gotten. Who is in favor of keeping the Falklands? The age of imperialism is slowly backing out of time thanks to mighty powers: the public opinion of deaths in battle on immoral causes. Soon we will find the Palestinians celebrate their day of independence in a frenzy of joy, rewriting the history of their freedom fighters. Do you know when Nelson Mandela was stricken from the list of international terrorists? It will be the same with Palestine as with South Africa, today you can hardly find a official person who support the idée of apartheid regime in that land, even though US supported it to the bitter end, just is the way today on the Israel question.

for the illegal use of European Union passports in an act of murder in Dubai. Bet Lieberman and Ayalon are not sniggering anymore.

There is no feasible solution on the horizon while Israel keeps stealing land, illegally settling occupied territory and bumping off protesters and opponents. Nor is the USA's involvement of any assistance at all, it is led by the nose by its Zionist lobby and vote and has achieved nothing in the past 40 years to restrain its little friend's land-greed in the region. It is time the rest of the free west bypass Israel and AIPAC and start to put 242 into practice. There have to be two independent sovereign states and one of them is Palestine. Let us therefore get Palestine ready for independence and recognize it on Fayyad's timetable. If Israel then refuses to withdraw its troops at that point, it's on a collision course with the EU. If it wants its biggest market closed to it and financial sanctions imposed, great. A lot of people have had enough of this Eretz Israel ethnic-nationalist nonsense, time for the EU to roll sleeves up and get hands dirty.

Don't be silly.

... no indeed, EU has only been coddling and compensating Israel for the past half-century-or-so... how dare they suddenly express an opinion?...

If, and it's a big if, this happens, most countries in the world would immediately recognize the Palestinian State. Israel should have taken the initiative of resolving this conflict a long time ago.Now others will do it for you.You have draggeg your feet for too long a time. A pity.

"because ofcourse, needless to say, Israel is the only power in the Middle East that is permitted to impose solutions-shmolutions..." Of course, Esther. Israel imposed the Gaza withdrawal... ...The Hamas bombs launched against her... ...Terrorism against Jews for 90 years... ...The 2000 intifada... ...Hezbollah attacks... ...Created the PLO... ...Israel imposes the UN upon itself regularly... No one tries to impose anything on Israel, oh no! A shrieking head with nothing of substance, beyond puerile anti-Israeli catchphrases.

'The conflict, based on UNSC Resolution 242, should therefore be resolved by Israel, Syria, Jordan and Egypt, period.' Err no, Jehudah Ben-Israel, the only one involved in the West Bank was Jordan. It abrogated its rights in favour of the PLO. The world and UN are therefore dealing with the PLO on the Arab side. Period, as you like to say. The Israel/Syria dispute is the subject of other UN resolutions.

"WITHDRAWAL of the IDF from occupied territory is a quite separate "principle" to the RECOGNITION of every party for each other." Israel already withdrew from territories captured in the recent conflict, dim one. That means, that it withdrew from all Egyptian and Jordanian territory and mutual recognition was exchanged. That leaves Syria. If you want to be a dunce about language, Israel fulfilled the wording of the language you pretend is operative, particularly since it refers to the involved parties. You want to be literal on the points you don't want subject to interpretation but choose to subject other parts of the resolution to your own interpretation? You like playing with a fixed hand, johnboy, but that only works on some people who are not as bright as you.

Israel says that an imposed solution will not work. That's rather ironic, the whole establishment of the Israeli state was an imposed solution - although I will concur that it didn't work very well until now and has created nothing but conflict.

If the EU wants to give half a capital to the Arabs, they should use Brussels.

"You think that there is only ONE principle (Israel gets to chose where its "secure" line of withdrawal is), and in that you are quite wrong." You don't know much of anything, do you? ...Particularly what I think. I believe in negotiated borders. All you did was restate the wording of the resolution, which doesn't demonstrate any ability on your part to elaborate. Parrotting your premises multiple times a day demonstrates a very dull personality.

... because ofcourse, needless to say, Israel is the only power in the Middle East that is permitted to impose solutions-shmolutions...

Marines were kidnapped and paraded on the Iranian TV.Even without Iranian nukes. Now yo threaten with "crippling Israel" in case the country opposes being slaughtered by the EU clerks. This only proves how cowardly the Brits are . Iran knew it well when it humiliate you publicly in the Royal Marines affair. Hope Israel will use its nukes to maximal benefit of the country ,whichever way it deems feassible.

17: " 'Other party`s right' meant established states - Arab Residents of Judea and Samaria are not the party - Jordan was A pointless point, 17, for an obvious reason i.e. it does not even *begin* to address the substance of my post, which is that the territory that the IDF must withdraw from is a **different** principle to the need of each party to recognize the "secure boundaries" of every other party. Jehudah was insisting that they were bound up in one inextricable "principle", and Res 242 clearly says that he is wrong i.e. the WITHDRAWAL of the IDF from occupied territory is a quite separate "principle" to the RECOGNITION of every party for each other. It says so in the text itself.

The international community needs to prevent the megalomaniacs in the Israeli government from profiting any further from their own intransigence and wrongdoing.

SDHD: "You think it doesn`t mean that? What`s YOUR interpretation of the meaning?" Res 242: a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles: i.e. there are TWO principles at work, not one. Res 242: Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict; i.e. the FIRST principle is to UNWIND the effects of the 6-day war Res 242: Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force; i.e. the SECOND principle is that everyone recognizes/respects everyone else. You think that there is only ONE principle (Israel gets to chose where its "secure" line of withdrawal is), and in that you are quite wrong.

from Canada ,but the perennial French spoilers are still at work. They won't rest until they succeed in instigating another war .

... is the ultimate folly ! It can only incite fighting & encourage living outside the rules of law. And isn't that what the Palestinians have been doing all these many years ?! Helping them to do the same think is NOT a solution whether in the French or the Spanish languages !

Israel's usual response to any problem with Arabs over the last few years has been violence. Kouchner better watch out for tennis players carrying pillows.

I've been saying for years that the West Bank needs to be takenout of Israel's abusive control before any progress can be maed on peace.

walk hand in hand to the promised land (greater Israel). "Sir, "Other party`s right" meant established states - Arab Residents of Judea and Samaria are not the party - Jordan was"17 Read the Washingto Declarations ---maybe it will help you to get past res 242 and your somewhat as always, self serving interpretation. "The Washington Declaration, which was signed by His Majesty King Hussein and Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin at the White House on July 25, 1994, formally ended the 46-year state of war between Jordan and Israel. The Declaration committed both Jordan and Israel to aim at the ?achievement of a just, lasting and comprehensive peace between Arab states and the Palestinians, with Israel.? Jordan passed it,s claim on Judea/Samaria(biblical nonsense) and defunct terms to the Palestinian people---signed by Yizak Rabin. "http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/w-declaration.html Try as you will 17---you keep bumping your silly young head into a wall of TRUTH. Try ending the practice--you will feel better---I promise.

" you are about to get shrunken down to size....a little country of 6 million people and nothing special" What a ridiculous comment. There are dozens of countries with 6 million people. Israel is ranked 18 in per capita income and something like 10 Noble Prizes. Nothing bad for a 60 years old country. I bet Palestine will be forever a poor and backwarded country as most of Arab. Size does not matter, dude, but brains. Envy sucks.

You right: Gaza to Egipt West Bank to Jordan and what is now Israel should be divided in 2 states Palestine and "smaller Israel"

about letting their spies run around with fake EU passports assassinating all and sundry. Apart from the locally arranged expulsion of Israeli diplomats and or the severing of ties with Mossad, both of which happened in the UK in 1987 after Israel was caught misusing British passports. A declaration of a Palestinian State and making this central to all our dealings between the EU and Israel, with the prospect of sanctions if Israel obsfucates is a sensible policy, and suitable punishment for the misuse of EU passports. If Israel doesn't like it Israel can sever all ties with the European Union.

I think we are always happy to help an allie. Just remember we are the only friends you got here in the mid east... we know you are our friends... got it? Finally?

No both one-state solution and two-state solution de-jury. It will be de-facto Arab autonomy of the West Bank under permanent Israel military control. Forever.

is available in the "Washington Declaration" signed by Jordan and Israel. "JBI--The only parties of that war were Israel, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. Thus, it is for each of the parties to recognize each other. No "Palestinian" party was part of the conflict and no "Palestinian state" was mentioned in the resolution. The conflict, based on UNSC Resolution 242, should therefore be resolved by Israel, Syria, Jordan and Egypt, period. "The Washington Declaration, which was signed by His Majesty King Hussein and Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin at the White House on July 25, 1994, formally ended the 46-year state of war between Jordan and Israel. The Declaration committed both Jordan and Israel to aim at the ?achievement of a just, lasting and comprehensive peace between Arab states and the Palestinians, with Israel.? Here is the link---read it-- http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/w-declaration.html The truth will set you free.

Simon, I actually have a good deal of respect for Mark of Lewiston because he debates on the issues. Unlike you. Stupid? Look man... oy. You know I refuse to debate you. Yo are a dummmy. The US needs Israel. You are are fighting and enemy which, for centuries, has murdered anyone who did not conform to Islam. They destroy churches (Church of the Sofia in Istanbul) and our holy site in in Jerusalem. They oppress their own people.. look at their women. We are a liability? Look dummy... we are the only true friends you have in the mid east. just wait till Abdul blows up another one of your buildings. Dummy.

...party (to the conflict, i.e. the June 1967 Six-Day War). The only parties of that war were Israel, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. Thus, it is for each of the parties to recognize each other. No "Palestinian" party was part of the conflict and no "Palestinian state" was mentioned in the resolution. The conflict, based on UNSC Resolution 242, should therefore be resolved by Israel, Syria, Jordan and Egypt, period. The EU member states know it, but in their drive to appease the Muslim-Arab world and the Muslim population of the continent they have chosen to ignore UN Security Council Resolution 242, despite its wisdom, and to push something that is convenient, since after all, they don't need to and never have cared about the need of the Jewish people.

You reckon Israel would want to play nuclear chicken with the EU? what planet are you on? Crippling sanctions and no income for munitions would make ISrael as very easy target in a very short time - nukes or not. There is MAD and then there is madness. Neither EU or Israel would ever get to this stage of conflict.

"IN ADDITION, all parties are to accept every other party`s right to live in peace and security within recognized boundaries." Jboy Sir, "Other party's right" meant established states - Arab Residents of Judea and Samaria are not the party - Jordan was

"When the Arabs kill 6000 americans again... come ask us israelies for help... :)"David Israel has never once sent a soldier to join in American fights. But it is happy to accept 3 billion "dollas" every year ---(180 billion since 1949) and allow it,s friend and benefactor to save it,s collective ass in the UN through use of the SC Veto button. As for help---you are a pipsqueak nation of 6 million---20% of whom do not support it. You sir are an ingrate and a hypocrite.

"Yeah, I know that doesn`t square with what you want it to MEAN, but that is what it SAID." You think it doesn't mean that? What's YOUR interpretation of the meaning?

When you continue to poke your fimger in someone,s eyes---they will eventually get pissed off. Time Israel learned a valuable lesson. Your status as a tiresome pest needs to be addressed---on a permanent basis. Time for a good swift kick in the posterior.

infighting will not stop because there are so many factions. They lack the capacity to govern themselves. They are corrupt to the core and do not even trust one another. Whatever the government, it will not exist in Jerusalem or inside Israel. A government by Hamas will never set foot in Israel. This will never be acceptable unless it is over the bodies of 5 million Jews ( except some who are always willing to be traitors and value the praise of liberals and the UN more than their fellow Jews lives) !

opinion as an illegal squatter is negated. As for your 242 nonsense---perhaps you can show where it states that either side can continue to help itself to the pie as they negotiate it,s eventual shape. Au contraire --here is what Lord Caradon had to say on the matter. ""Knowing as I did the unsatisfactory nature of the 1967 line, I wasn?t prepared to use wording in the Resolution that would have made that line permanent. Nonetheless, it is necessary to say again that the overwhelming principle was the ?inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war? and that meant that there could be no justification for the annexation of territory on the Arab side of the 1967 line merely because it had been conquered in the 1967 war."Lord Caradon Your move ----dont forget ---no cheating allowed.

"you are both funny Americans with no clue. Still losing wars in Afghanistan and Iraq? Must be terribly frustrating being wrong all the time. When the Arabs kill 6000 americans again... come ask us israelies for help" You're joking, right? You must be, because I refuse to believe that you're actually that stupid. The U.S. has NEVER asked Israel for help in any conflict. In fact, we've told Israel to stay out of some conflicts because Israel would be more of a liability than an asset in any international conflict. Israel, on the other hand, has always operated with military, economic, and financial aid, as well as political support from the U.S. And often times it has been to OUR detriment. You think a little too much of yourself there.

....by saving (Jewish) Israel...??? Yes, I think so indeed.

After all, this has been the wisest resolution the UN reached since 29 November 1947, i.e. UNGA Resolution 181. And it was based on 242 that Egypt as well as Jordan reached a peace agreement with Israel. The world community, the one that has passed this resolution and should stand by it, should ensure its implementation instead of changing its act for political expediency.

We might just ask for help David. How many tens of thousands of troops can you commit to Afghanistan? It's not an Arab country. But there is a pretty big fight going on in Helmand Province. Your troops would have to learn counterinsurgency, though. Iraq is about over. The name of the war changed fro Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL) to Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF) and is now being re-named for a dish soap (New Dawn). And for the record, Iraq was a war of choice, not one where we were invited or were attacked. It was not good for the US precisely for that reason. We paid dearly for the conquest, so did the Iraqis.

Before recognizing a state, why not see whether they can act more responsibly first? They may be building infrastructure, government bodies, and businesses at the moment, but there is still tremendous distrust between the parties. First, the EU signs onto the conditions placed upon Hamas... 1) Recognize Israel. 2) Abide by prior agreements with Israel. 3) Terminate hostilities against Israel. Hamas rejected these three very reasonable conditions. And... the next step is to recognize their statehood? Nice move to embolden a warlike mentality.

Sure, it will be difficult. However, it will come about. No matter what the current Gov. in Jerusalem says. A two State solution is the only option for Israel. The contentious capital cannot be Jerusalem, for the city must remain the undivided Capital of Israel. Some settlements will remain. Land swaps will work. Guess its easier to see from afar, rather skeptical as it may sound. I do firmly believe in a State for the Palestinians, Ramallah as its Capital Good day.

JBI: "Israel, according to 242, is to withdraw its armed forces to secure and recognize borders and not to the armistice lines of 1949 that the Arabs violated" No, actually. The IDF, according to 242, is to withdraw from "territory occupied in the recent conflict". IN ADDITION, all parties are to accept every other party's right to live in peace and security within recognized boundaries. Now, so sorry, Jehudan, that is what Resolution 242 actually SAID. Yeah, I know that doesn't square with what you want it to MEAN, but that is what it SAID.

as a Palestinian, It is not less horrifying than living under the occupation, the fact that living under an extremely corrupt authority which is considered the corner stone of the future Palestinian State!I would suggest the dissolution of the PNA and the return to the pre-oslo period.

in case you haven't noticed, the handwriting is on the wall. these two countries aren't the only ones in europe who are open to this idea; and the governments of the rest won't be able to ignore the predominance of public opinion for much longer...especially once others begin pushing the concept. it's time that israel comes to terms with the inevitable, instead of continuing to alienate itself by resisting it while it further entrenches itself into a situation that's going to be extremely painful to extricate itself from when that time comes. the second biggest foreign relations mistake israel ever made was it occupations, while the BIGGEST one was its settlement enterprises inside the territories it occupied. but the gigs up, and what's reported here is just the beginning, not just some meaningless ramblings. its a manifestation of an almost universal sentiment that grows stronger almost daily, and is based on the enlightened notions of fairness, justice and human rights.

If they recognize the so called "palestinian" state, then Israel should recognize Basque and Corsican sovereign states, which are illegally occupied by French and Castillian-Spanish imperialists!

You live in a dream world and are dissecting terminology used while ignoring the spirit of the resolution - are you a lawyer perchance? Fine, keep Gaza and the WB (or Judea and Samaria as you probably prefer) and incorporate all Arab Palestinians into Israel proper.

Does that mean they are going to pay their bills themselves?

you are both funny Americans with no clue. Still losing wars in Afghanistan and Iraq? Must be terribly frustrating being wrong all the time. When the Arabs kill 6000 americans again... come ask us israelies for help... :)

and it is time the Europeans appreciated it and internalized it. Israel, according to 242, is to withdraw its armed forces to secure and recognize borders and not to the armistice lines of 1949 that the Arabs violated. Israel is to do so from "territories" and not from all of them, and based on discussions/negotiations with the parties that fought during the Six-Day War of 1967.

The EU may be levelling the playing field a bit...How can any negotiations succeed when one side is a regional super-power and the other a bunch of refugees under military occupation?

Northeast of you is a state where there is a Basque population that has political power. It's called Idaho. The EU should be building consulates that can be converted to embassies at the right time.

you are about to get shrunken down to size....a little country of 6 million people and nothing special

Israel fears this initiative because Israel prefers the "status quo" of the past 20 years. Negotiations that in the end lead nowhere, and in the meantime, Israel can continue to further cement its illegal settlement activity in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. How dare the Europeans interfere with this Israeli plan to expand its borders and ethnically cleanse East Jerusalem???

Maybe they should look closer to home and let the Basque have their own state. Or maybe they could stand up against the repression of the Kurds. No. Never. The world focus must be on creating yet another Arab government and another Palestinian state. Ironic how real cultures and peoples never get their day in court, but "nationalities" invented to destroy others are so easily supported.

SPAIN, together with Greece, Portugal and Ireland, is on the way to 'single handed' blow up the EU and the EUR. Please all those EU countries, clean up YOUR OWN MESS AT HOME,and that of YOUR own citizens (you where voted in BY them FOR them, NOT the 'Pals) before mingling in the ME which is 5 sizes to big for all your simple minds.

Assassinations, the abortive invasion of Gaza, the ruthless taking of Palestinian homes and farms ..... These are not the actions of a responsible state from which the Palestinians can ever expect justice. It is time for other nations to step forward and support independence for Palestine. It is also time for Palestine to be wary of any benevolent intervention by the USA. Palestine can expect greater justice from the EU in its movement towards independence.

in order to recognize a state you have to put a framework in which this state will operate. i believe that european states dont care for the people of the region , they care only for their own benefits.

What is the EU planning on doing if Israel disagree borders. Israel three hundreds nuclear warheads and god only what other kind WMD.EU tries hit Israel with economic sanction. Israel can pirate high sea because untold damage to the EU economy. The EU would not risk nuclear war most likely just back down economic sanction in return for Israel end pirating Mederation high sea.

France and Spain should start building their consulates in East Jerusalem or Bethlehem or Ramallah. They can be converted to Embassies when the time comes.

Perhaps they should wait for the Palestinians to become one party and Gilad Shalit to come home before they consider this move. Two years is a long time in politics.

...peace talks and agreements have been based does not mention even once the need to set up an additional state in the region; not even one time!!! Moreover, 242, does not mention at all concepts such as "Palestine", "Palestinian people" or "Palestinian state"; not even a single time!!! The Arab Israeli conflict and its symptoms that we presently face came about as a result of Arab aggression against Israel, i.e. 1948 and 1967. It is time the Arab states shoulder their responsibility for bringing about this tragedy by implementing 242 as is: Gaza to Egypt and West Bank to Jordan.

Very interesting how Israel sent a statement to the EU saying that "an imposed solution will not achieve the goals". The goal of the civilized world, which is to establish an independent Palestinian State, will be achieved. What is it that Israel is afraid won't be achieved? Perhaps Israel's goals of keeping all of the stolen land and being the one's to "impose" a solution on the Palestinians?! The Zionofascists are in panic mode!!!

While there is Zionism, there will never ever be a seperate sovereign Palestinian state. Not ever. The OneState binational solution is the ONLY solution - and the quicker the world wakes up to it the better for the entire world.

The inmates are running the asilum.What 'pal' state?Where 'pal' state?What about gaza? Israel would be crazy to accept any 'pal'entity West of the Jordan.It would be an iranian base the day after its inception...