Despite U.S. misgivings, UN Gaza flotilla probe to begin
Former International Criminal Court president Philippe Kirsch to head committee investigating deaths of nine Turkish citizens in clash with Israeli naval commandos.
By Shlomo Shamir Tags: Gaza flotilla Gaza Israel newsNEW YORK - A former president of the International Criminal Court, Canadian Philippe Kirsch, will head the committee investigating the deaths of nine Turkish citizens aboard the Gaza-bound flotilla, on behalf of the United Nations Human Rights Council. Kirsch, well known in the community of international law, has been involved in international investigations of war crimes and maritime terrorism in the past.
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Israel Navy forces approach one of six ships of an aid flotilla bound for Gaza on May 31, 2010. |
| Photo by: Reuters |
The committee will begin its work today after the its full membership is announced.
The decision to set up the committee was made by the Human Rights Council in a lightning-quick process, 48 hours after news broke that the Israel Navy intercepted the Gaza-bound flotilla and on-board clashes led to the deaths.
Diplomatic sources in New York expressed criticism and reservations at the timing for the start of the committee's work.
The U.S. is opposed to an international probe into the events, and had welcomed the formation of an independent committee of inquiry in Israel under former justice Jacob Turkel. France and Britain share Washington's view on the issue.
Diplomats describe the relationship between the UN headquarters in New York and the Human Rights Council in Geneva as one "short on trust."
The UN's media site did not announce Kirsch's appointment as the head of the committee and ignored any reports of the start of the committee's work.
"As far as the U.S. administration is concerned, at a time when it is trying to resume the peace process, the investigation into the events of the flotilla at this time could not have come at a worst time," a diplomat in New York said yesterday.
The flotilla raid earned Israel international condemnation, with the harshest criticism coming from Turkey, which cut some ties with Jerusalem and has adamantly demanded an apology and compensation for the killed activists.
Turks blast 'irrational' Israel
The Turkish foreign minister renewed that demand yesterday and criticized his Israeli counterpart's approach to the issue.
"What Avigdor Lieberman says has no value for us," Ahmet Davutoglu said in an interview with Turkish television network TGRT. The foreign minister said he did not view his Israeli counterpart as a proper go-between "owing to his rhetoric and attitude."
Lieberman has ruled out any chance of an official apology.
Turkish President Abdullah Gul said yesterday that Israel was acting outside its interests in not repairing ties with Ankara.
Gul said Israel's apparent readiness to become more isolated by ditching relations with a country that had been its only Muslim ally was irrational.
"They don't have many friends in the region, " Gul said. "Now it seems they want to get rid of the relationship with Turkey."
The United States, a mutual ally of Israel and NATO-member Turkey, has quietly encouraged the two governments to overcome their differences.
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I think you have been spot-on regarding Israel's rights and responsibilities regarding occupation and on other legal matters, but you may be wrong about Israel's intercepting the flotilla on the high seas being illegal. I've watched both sides of the debate and, from what I have been able to tell, you may have been right if the flotilla had not explicitly announced that it's purpose was not to deliver humanitarian goods, but instead to break the blockade. To challenge the Israeli Navy. That made the flotilla an aggressor, if you will, and gave Israel the legal right to intercept it on the high seas. Again, best as I can tell.
Judge Kirsch has impeccable credentials and may just be the man for this job. We’ll have to wait and see. However, this investigation may not turn out to be exactly what Turkey has in mind (blaming Israel). Turkey may also find itself in a tight spot; after all, they supported the flotilla knowing very well who was behind it. Judge Kirsch will need to dig deeply in order to arrive at objective conclusions – sadly we know that when it comes to Israel, being objective is not part of the United Nations Human Rights Council agenda. How deep will he dig? Will he also investigate the background of the IHH who describe themselves as a humanitarian NGO, but in fact is known as having links with Hamas and Al-Qaida? Some years ago Turkey investigated this organization and found that IHH was buying weapons from Islamic militant groups; they also raided their offices and discovered firearms, explosives, bomb making manuals, etc). Will the learned judge watch and listen to the tape made before the Israeli navy seals boarded the ship, and see how the IHH president was whipping up the participants to a fighting frenzy and how they responded - ‘millions of martyrs marching to Gaza’? A good and fair investigation will need to look into all aspects of this incident, not just the killing of 9 people.
the investigation will be considered invalid by Turkey and many others if Israel is not considered entirely in the wrong.
the investigation will be considered invalid by Turkey and many others if Israel is not considered entirely in the wrong.
davutoglu
Really? Because the EU pressed for it. William Hague did not oppose the Turkel enquiry, but never opposed the UN-led enquiry either. Nor did Kouchner.
Who cares what Britain and France oppose and for that matter the USA as well. These are the true "Axis of Evil" nations.
Lieberman was asked a couple of days ago about those four UN soldiers killed by Israelis during the Lebanon war. He answered:"I do not understand all this noise about four men. there are thousands of others who have died in the conflicts. The rest of the world could ask.What is all that "noise" about Shalit -a trained soldier. He is still alive!!! Israel never let the investigators have all the documents of the destinyt of these four soldiers.
There's never a good time to investigate murder, kidnap and piracy.
The proud record of the UN and its NGO flunkies vis a vis Israel
Nine people were killed outright, and their death needs to be analysed and accounted for. It is completely untenable to reply only on the analysis of the side responsible for the actual killing, although their input to a wider probe is essential.
But only these nine deaths have to be investigated? That's what Israelis call anti-Semitism - selective application of principles based on ethnicity of (alleged) offender.
That is the real question. I believe it is because of fear. They are so scared that they lash out against any criticism and brandish it as anti semitism. It is clear that support for Israel, even in the US! is falling. Some of the arguments put forward by Israeli supoorters is just flabagastingly absurd and lacking in humane and logical thinking.
Explain to me why? Wasn't Hamas democratically elected? Why don't we analyze the death toll between the Israeli and Gazans during the war of 2009? Whos is the occupying army? Look at UN after UN resolution passed against Israel.
Hamas was demagogically elected just like Hitler and if they can't keep their proud phallic symbols in their own shorts but rather wish to violently fence neighboring nations with it, they will be subject to the necessary cold showers to contain their militant excitement.
Hamas was demagogically elected just like Hitler and if they can't keep their proud phallic symbols in their own shorts but rather wish to violently fence neighboring nations with it, they will be subject to the necessary cold showers to contain their militant excitement.
UN/HRC = Arab majority vote = Israel is guilty = no need for "investigation", because 'everybody knows the outcome!
A little like the US Veto in the UN against any action put forward against Israel. :) Idiot!
Because UN = Arab majority vote = Israel is guilty. No need to question because everyone knows the outcome.
It was clear from the begining that we were heading toward another international probe. If we wont cooperate with it the results will certainly be paralels to those of the Gaza probe.
It is quiet a scandal, that the US, France and Britain are supporting an Israelian investigation, with it's very limited competencies and preselected members. The military heads of the operation for example cannot be interviewed by the commission and the international observers have no mandate at all. Only after a lot of pressure, Nentanyahu allowed the commission to interview a few soldiers. Such an investigation has hardly any credibility at all. The incident happened in international waters and the vicitims were not Israelians. It is self-evident, that an international investigation and a Turkish as well, has to follow. It would be desirable, that the Israeli Soldiers and officers will make their statements, but they are even blanketed of the Israelian commission. The politics of maximum provocation of Israel seems to work quiet well, since it is obvious, that it's perplexed allys are again and again yielding any serious analysis for tiny concessions behind the doors. Only an incorrupt analysis and confrontation might show the way out of this ongoing drama. But there is nothing likewise in sight, even not Obama seems to be the one, who makes a real change. Israel makes the world look like a dancing bear.
a scandal, that the US, France and Britain are supporting an Israelian investigation. Noting that there was 14 US nationals from non-arab roots!
This will all end in crying no doubt
Israel will do what it usually does. It will be a complete whitewash of it's illegal conduct, as per the usual. Why are they even bothering with this charade? Does any really think that Israel will find that's its country committed murder, as it did? LOL. The U.S. should stop giving its taxpayers money (to the tune of approx. $3 billion/year) any military weapons/systems to Israel and give it all to the Palestinians instead. We should also stop vetoing UN resolutions regarding Israel's nuclear weapons program which we all know it has. And there are millions of Americans who feel the same way. But, alas, Obama - like all the other U.S. presidents after Bush, Sr. - either have no spines or are being bought off by AIPAC .... or both.
I agree, nothing will come of it. Like everything else, it will just get pushed aside. We are the mob, and the powers will do what ever they want, regardless of whether we want it or not. Its the way it is, its the way it will always be. Just make the most of the time we have on this planet, with our families, our friends. Enjoy travelling and seeing the wonders, and leave all the bullshit to someone else.
but others in the world are delighted. The internal Israeli inquiry will not have legitimacy to anyone other than the US and Israel. If Israel and the US don't like this investigation, they will have their own flawed report to fall back on, thereby, once again, ignoring the voices of the world.
So you already know that if Israel investigate this, it will be flawed, thanks for your insight. I ignore the rest of the world because history proves, that Israel will be found guilty, even if she is not
that an internal Israeli investigation will always show that Israel did no wrong. This is why there is no credibility when it comes to Israel inquiries.
Yah, sure, Israel wants to jettison its historic relationship with Turkey! What nonsense! Turkey is playing out a transparent script and is speaking both out both the top and bottom orifice. Turkey has become yukky, untrustworthy and generally unworthy. Can't trust a word that comes out of its "leadership" which is taking Turkey to hell in a hand basket.
you keep trusting Liberman and see where it takes you.
..... I am sure they pay very well. What a stink is coming out of there! Soon, our Nobel Prize winners' scientists will be arrested when entering the United Kingdom ....even if they are women....
philippe kirsch, canadian, queen's council, head of the icc for five years. all the trappings are there. will he be just one iota more objective and honest than goldstone? only time will tell. dispair and fear are not allowed. you will see that we shall emerge in a secure position. we just need to know how to play the game. we should read and listen carefully to what nobel prize winner professor yisrael aumann says in various game theories and games--like the game of the blackmailer. shalom, cipora
CJK: "will he be just one iota more objective and honest than goldstone?" Oh, you mean to ask if he'll be an Israeli lick-spittle, I take it?
"As far as the U.S. administration is concerned, at a time when it is trying to resume the peace process, the investigation into the events of the flotilla at this time could not have come at a worst time," a diplomat in New York said yesterday" Same line used to deter the further pursuit of the Goldstone report. When it comes to holding Israel accountable for the atrocities it commits there never is a good time. Grossly disgusting...
I have no idea what is meant by " restart the peace process." What peace process ? Between who ? When has there ever been a successful peace process ? When has there been peace ? Why would Israel want peace, when it already has peace ? How will things be different this time ? Discuss a peace process with who ? Abbas ? The whole thing is absurd.
If you think Israel already has peace now, you are just a plain idiot. Given the rest of your comment, you're an even bigger idiot!
I couldn't be more happy. May justice finally prevail.
Lieberman is doing maximum damage to Israel now
But he's doing a great job for the Palestinians and for the world's opinion about Israel, though. Keep on trucking, Avigdor!
...what else is there to investigate?
Any more Taqiya today?
Boats have the freedom of the seas. Israel declared a blockade zone, and regardless of wether or not Israel has a legal right to declare that blockade it does NOT have any right to storm on board a boat BEFORE it has entered that zone. No right at all.
If Israel didn't confiscate the cargo what happened to it? It was on the ships, Israel took control of the ships (and the cargo), Israel unloaded the cargo and then the cargo remained in Israel. I call that confiscating it. If it hadn't been confiscated it would still have been under control of the owners. The minute the IDF took control of the ships it confiscated the cargo.
when a blockade is declared, all vessels headed toward the territory being blockde, can be stopped and searched. if the civilian vessel refuses to stop, refuses to be serchhed, the blockading state has every right to board the ship, and if boarding is refused, then the state has the right to board the ship by force of arms and has the right to capture said ship.
when a blockade is declared, all vessels headed toward the territory being blockde, can be stopped and searched. if the civilian vessel refuses to stop, refuses to be serchhed, the blockading state has every right to board the ship, and if boarding is refused, then the state has the right to board the ship by force of arms and has the right to capture said ship.
israel forbids construction material to rebuild schools, hospitals ,houses within the open prison that is gaza. any more hasbarah from you peter?
You are going to get searched-legally. When your jihadist,martyr wannabee, taibeh singers decide they are going to fight with iron bars and knives,the IDF wont sit back and let themselves be killed..
The Gaza blockade is not recognized by the UN and Israel does not follow standard blockade protocols such as allowing the ship to be search at sea and publishing a list of blocked weapons (not diapers and pasta).
as the UN has confirmed.
the exact wording backing your claim will do. The UN General Assembly is a one eyed Moslem heavy travesty as is the UNHRC
ALL the relevent law clearly says that a ship can be stopped and captured by the blockading navy when that ship "breaches the blockade", but what you are describing is a vessel that is "attempting to breach the blockade". The two phrases have DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS, and only the former justifies search-and-siezure, not the latter.
The IDF itself has highlighted that "breaching a blockade" is A VERY DIFFERENT THING to "attempting to breach a blockade". What you are describing is the **latter**, but int'l law only allows search-and-capture for the **former**.
and teaching children racist lies,hatred and rejection to guarrantee there will indeed be no peace ever. That will save you shouting "hasbarra" and other slogans,the refuge of the factually destitute. Are you boycotting China? Iran?Turkey? etc etc? Why not?
Again, you are wrong Cipora. The legality of a blockade only exists under the laws of war. UN experts have for a long time ruled that Israel cannot be 'at war" with Gaza, Hamas or anyone else in that zone as 'the occupying power. To put it into word even a cretin can understand you cannot be at war with a zone that is occupied by you (i.e yourself). As usual, Haaretz has its favourite protagonists so the chances of any opinion such as this being published is 0%. I have demonstrated this to friends and colleagues over the last few weeks.
Conflation is so ...Hasbara 101
blockades are as old as are navies. admiral nelson blockaded napoleon. the romans blockaded anthony and cleopatra in greece. the law of naval warfare goes back significantly before the creation of the un. you must have gotten confused because i made reference to the blockade of the former yugoslavia. that was a chapter vii unscr, actually a number of resolutions. however, that one case in no way abrogates the right of sovereign states to impose a blockade under customary international law.
unlike the other ships in the convoy, the mavi marmara refused to stop, refused to be boarded, refused to be searched. the intent of the mavi marmara was clearly stated and its actions conformed to its intent to break the blockade.
the laws of war make it very clear that laws are not necessarily between sovereigns. the laws of war clearly recognise wars that are not international. even goldstone recognised that there is a war between israel and hamas. furthermore, even if gaza were occupied, and it is not, israel would have the right to impose a blockade as a measure of self defence. occupying powers have every right to maintain order and to defend themselves and their own civilians against acts of terror and against acts of war regardless of where such acts of terror or acts of war originate.
The US can only benefit from a UN investigation. The probe will take months, so there will be no interference with the peace negotiations in the next couple of critical months. And if the UN finds that Israeli actions were not entirely proper, it will help Israel get closer to the Turkish position despite its paranoia. This means that two friends of the US may be more able to reconcile. It is a plus for all concerned.
When one sends terrorists somewhere, anywhere, and they get killed in a fight, that is not part of the inquiry into their death?
You are in a boat. That boat has "freedom of the seas". Heavily armed men tell you to heave-to, and you refuse (you know, freedom of the seas 'n' all). Those armed men then storm your ship, and you put up a fight to prevent them siezing control of your vessel (freedom of the seas, remember?). That makes you (in hasbarah-speak) a "terrorist". Bizarre. Completely and utterly bizarre.....
however, it will be very interesting to see whther kirsch will have the minimum honesty to investigate ihh and their terror supporters in saudi.
in any case, it belongs in a commedy.
Not like you, talking besides the subject. And THAT means 100% terrorism. Negating it however is....err.....bizarre....
You have seen a carefully-edited snippet of video showing a SHIPS CREW and THEIR PASSENGERS defending **their** ship from armed men who are **forcing** their way onboard that vessel. Whoever decided that Israel would storm onboard while that ship was still outside the blockade zone was a f**king idiot, and the best thing that can be said about him is that he is still probably smarter than you.
Please shove it you know where.
Go back to Australia, and ask each and every remaining aborigines for forgiveness for past crimes committed against them by the unlawful European settlers who had no previous ties to that land except for economic greed. Then, ask each and every one of them for permission to stay where you are. Until then, kindly go stick your own head down under, if you catch my drift... Good bye!
We know very well where to shove it. Just relax.
We HAVE permission to stay..... http://www.aph.gov.au/house/Nelson_speech.pdf http://www.australianreader.com/index.php?section=articles&articleID=121&page=1
So now,every time Israel kills someone the UN will investigate if Israel acted accordingly to international laws while ignoring others countries crimes...Russia,Turkey,Iran etc. Why on earth Israel doesn't use proxy in her fights like Iran and Syria?I don't remember any UN probe involving Syria or Iran for Hezbollah and Hamas war crimes.
"Why on earth Israel doesn't use proxy in her fights like Iran and Syria?" It used a proxy army against Iraq in 2003, Meo. And if that hadn't gone as spectacularly pear-shaped as it did then it would have been able to convince its proxy stooge to take out both Iran and Syria. After all, the Lobby had convinced that Big Ol' Dope to put both those countries on his Naughty List.
we all know what they are going to conclude. A worthless bunch of haters and dictators. Get rid of that glass building that occupies prime nyc property and move it to one of those 3rd worl countries.
The Human Rights Council is located in Geneva, not in NYC
strange how quick the un can act when it is obviously biased against Israel yet has nothing to say or add when the terrorists continue to violate 1701/pour in rockets weapons etc even the "flotilla" situationshould warrant the un investigate turkey's role in this what a sham the un is they should be booted out of NY we dont need the buzzards
First of all it's the United Nations, not the united nations and various terror organizations, it has no power over Hamas and others. What do you expect it to do? Launch a little investigation into whether any civilians were killed by the latest rocket or not? All that is needed to answer that question is to read an Israeli newspaper. And what possible ground could you have for investigating Turkey in relation to the flotilla mess? The whole flotilla could have been funded, equipped and commanded by the Turkish government and Turkey still wouldn't have committed any crime. Israel is being investigated since it boarded a civilian vessel in international waters and killed a number of the passengers, do you need it to be spelled out any more clearly than that? I'm assuming you do not think that it would be OK for Turkey to board any Israeli or US civilian ship it sees fit and kill/wound a couple of dozen people?
so much for being called "the advocates for freedom and human rights" might as well melt your statue of liberty and send its cashed value to build more settlements or buy more Israeli bombs.
Israel's raid on the Turkish flotilla really concerns international law because the raid involves a Turkish ship being raided by Israeli forces in international waters. The legality of the blockade of Gaza aside, Israel must respond to the Turkish allegations of state-sponsored piracy in international waters.
If one was to ask each of the HRC sinner members condemning the Israeli actions alone to cast the first stone, they should all leave with heads downcast in shame and with rock in hand.
Exactly what war crimes do you think the IHH has committed? Exactly how has it supported terrorism? These words have a meaning you know, they are not meant to be used just to cause outrage.
You must be really p*ssed at the IDF for not knowing what you know.
If it were then it would be listed by the US State Dept and the Israeli Foreign Ministry as a "terrorist organization". It. Is. Not. On. Either. List. There is no suggestion from either State or the Israeli FM that the IHH has committed any "war crimes", and the laughable guilt-by-association of pointing out that the IHH talks to Hamas can - gasp! - is also true of ANY humanitarian organizations that have offices in Gaza.
If it were then it would be listed by the US State Dept and the Israeli Foreign Ministry as a "terrorist organization". It. Is. Not. On. Either. List. There is no suggestion from either State or the Israeli FM that the IHH has committed any "war crimes", and the laughable guilt-by-association of pointing out that the IHH talks to Hamas can - gasp! - is also true of ANY humanitarian organizations that have offices in Gaza.