Deputy PM to Haaretz: Israel must probe Gaza war

Talking about Hamas if it fired rockets or not is not a reliable link where he can verify the veracity of your claim "A total of 20 rockets and 18 mortars were launched from the signing of the ceasefire until the beginning of November. This represented a 98% reduction in rocket fire four and a half month period prior to the signing of the ceasefire during which over 1,800 rockets were fired from Gaza." Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs. 01-01-2009. Because I missed this Israeli declaration and did not read it I would like to see more details myself. Thanks :) And btw,does it realy matter if Hamas fired qassams or not during the ceasefire? The commander of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Mohammad Ali Jafari in the Iranian newspaper Jam-e Jam 28/06/2008: "If the attack takes place from the soil of another country ... the country attacked has the right to respond to the enemy's military action from where the operation started." And I agree with him.Why not roo?

IDF is the most moral defense force on the planet!!!!

You shouldn't. The louder you shout the less sense you make. The ceasefire was good enough for the Israeli Foreign Ministry. They quoted a 98% reduction in rocket fire from the June start date to the Nov 4th Israeli ceasefire wreckage operation in Gaza. It's your BIG MOUTH versus the Israeli Foreign Ministry. Read MY POST to you again. This time with specs. As for the few rockets that were fired between June and Nov 4th they were not fired by Hamas. Who says so? None other than Israeli Gov. spokesman Mark Regev. He makes an admission that prior to Nov 4th the ceasefire *was* holding and that the few rockets that were fired were not fired by Hamas. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixrYv5pUzps&feature=related Dumb is what I said, and IT WAS CLEARLY JUSTIFIED.

..Lobby.." Well taken,..Goldstone and its committee spoke on behalf of Arab lobby. Goldstone got their walking orders by stealt and elivered the biased report. Would you expect Ahmedinejad speek on behalf of Israeli side? Of course each side has its own lobby and they take part in the deliberations regarding baseless or not conclussions by the UN Human Rights Council(HRC) who Mandated investigative committee of Goldstone.The truck record of HRC was that for the ;last 5 years they issued resolutions against Israel only. No other country was ever condemned by Human Rights Councli under Louise Arbour.Nor was the predecessor of Human Right Council,the Human Rights Commission less unbiased.Off All resolutions condemning Crimes abgainst humanity and war crimes only Israel was exclussively targeted. Arbour ruined her repuration as an independent jurist,saw the light,got the emssage anr run to end up in the bindust of history.Same faith awaits Goldstone.Both,discarded fairness and goofed!

stop talking nonsense. even the biased goldstone report did not claim that people warned of an impending attack had nowhere to escape to. if only people in other wars had the same opportunity, there would be fewer war dead.

'indeed, colonel richard kemp was testifying before the hrc. goldstone chose to ignore his testimony for reasons known only to him.' There are 2 good reasons for ignoring Kemp, Cipora. 1. He was speaking on behalf of UN Watch, which is a zealous pro-Israel lobby group not held in great regard among NGOs and jurists. (To put it mildly). 2. He is but a middle-ranking field officer of limited experience. The fact he is on the UNW payroll discredits his objectivity. There is unfortunately no magic Easter Bunny in a uniform who is going to be able to explain away the tremendous discrepancy between the civilian and military deaths in Cast Lead or the fact that 4 civilians were killed for every insurgent. You don't have to go on the senior staff course to know there is something badly wrong here that can't be explained away by made-up tales of Hamas human shields. (Hamas had run away. They were not there, apart from a thin covering screen).

(retry) "A total of 20 rockets and 18 mortars were launched from the signing of the ceasefire" Check ANY dictionary for the DEFINITION of "ceasefire", roo. Then COMPARE mark's "while the cease fire was working" with YOUR post. READ my reply to mark AGAIN. Finally, PONDER over "dumb comments are still just dumb comments"...preferably in FRONT of a MIRROR.

Richard Goldstone is a Jewish South African,[3] who is married to Noleen Goldstone. They have two daughters (Glenda and Nicole) and four grandsons (Jason, Sean, Ben and Jordan). According to his daughter Nicole, Goldstone "is a Zionist and loves Israel."[4] Goldstone himself, in a 2000 speech in Jerusalem, noted that "bringing war criminals to justice stems from the lessons of the Holocaust".Something which is frowned upon By Iranian and other arabs claiming the Holocaust did not exist. So why is it they all follow Goldstone's report?

victims, Hmmm allow me to quote you " G-d told you to do it? You are actually talking to G-d?" Seems a double standard, and G-d has not told them to do it protecting Israeli Soverienty did!

...Clearly it was Olmert,the PM who set the tone and issued overall order fror Cast lead. After intitial assault both Barak then DF Minister and Tzipi Livni,the FM in Olmerts government that demanded the cessetion of the fire after 3 days following th start of Cast lead.It was Olmert that insisted on continuing warfare when the Hamas "fighters who were not killed in the first 3 days took off their uniforms to blend into general popultaion of Gazanz or went into hiding in underground bunkers like their "HEROIC" leaders,Hanyie,Zahar etc.Thats when some of the Gazan civilians were killed.Olmerts decision was not unlike his decision during the Lebanese Warr II,when the UN Security Commission had already apssed the 1701.Olmert chose to launch a major assault.For the next 3 days when most IDF soldiers were killed.If an independent commission by Natanyahu Government is established let it be fairly shown that the incompetent Olmert bears the responsibility.He will be tried for fraud anyway.

I think Israel should probe its troops but mind you guys like you should find it hard to believe a Zionist. Goldstone claims to be one.

"A total of 20 rockets and 18 mortars were launched from the signing of the ceasefire" This is the BEST you can do, roo? Do you DARE to REVEAL the URL of the SOURCE for your "The Israeli Foreign Ministry" QUOTE? Anyway, since LONG sentences are BEYOND your ABILITY to understand, here's a SIMPLE way to help YOU : 1. CEASE means STOP. 2. FIRE means SHOOT. Put 1 & 2 together. ADD the "rockets and mortars". WHAT do you get, roo? Now COMPARE mark's "while the cease fire was working" with YOUR post. Then, when the BULB is switched ON between your ears, PONDER over "dumb comments are still just dumb comments".

thank you for posting.

it is possible that the most Moral Army of the world can investigate and find something wrong, but what if it investigates and finds that while although not perfect (in war who is) that most action was Justified. Many have wondered what justice was given in MUMBAI when the wonderful Jihadists were not investigated by the same UN and prosectuted or at least were threatened to be prosecuted. China Darfur Somalia , where are the UN reps when it comes to the killing of their peope? Yep good ol Israel the Jews and everything to do with it the scapegoats again. When Pali tv talks about killing Jews . Not to mention Scaninavia and its attempt to discredit Jews. While It is still ok for Jihadists to expect major apologies from Denmark for Mohammed cartoons.

to win a war against israel, hamas would have to invade israel and take territory and keep it. hamas simply does not have such capability. israel, on the other hand, definitely has the capability to re-conquer gaza and keep its territory. the gaza operation did not have the goal to reconquer gaza. the operation had the limited goal to degrade hamas missile and other weapons capabilities and to achieve deterrence against future terror attacks against israel. this limited goal was achieved. since the goal as such was limited, the results might not last indefinitely.

it is legally impossible to conduct a judicial inquiry regarding war without testimony from military experts. only a military expert would know what a reasonable commander would do in situations of war. indeed, colonel richard kemp was testifying before the hrc. goldstone chose to ignore his testimony for reasons known only to him. however, it must be emphasised that goldstone has admittted that his report would not stand up in a court of law. goldstone's admission goes to show that his is a political report.

The most 'moral' country in the world is unfortunately not so moral for the press. Reporters Without Borders for press freedoms has declared: "Operation Cast Lead had an impact on the press. Israel sank 47 places in the 'Freedom of Press' index to 93rd position. This means it has lost its place at the head of the Middle Eastern countries, falling behind Kuwait (60th), United Arab Emirates (86th) and Lebanon (61st).Israel has begun to use the same methods internally as it does outside its own territory. Reporters Without Borders registered five arrests of journalists, some of them completely illegal, and three cases of imprisonment. The military censorship applied to all the media is also posing a threat to journalists. As regards its extraterritorial actions, Israel was ranked 150th. The toll of the war was very heavy. Around 20 journalists in the Gaza Strip were injured by the Israeli military forces and three were killed while covering the offensive." SAY IT OUD LOUD!

The last refuge of scoundrels. You're destruction in Gaza was in the name of God. God told you to do it? You are actually talking to God? Don't be so presumptuous as to believe that God wants all the blood you are putting on his hands. You still believe you are God's chosen people and that He lives in Israel even after the thousands of years of punishment God has visited upon the people of Israel? Don't be so certain of where you stand in God's eye. Even if God gave you the land 2500 years ago, you lost the deed.

That's very interesting Paul. I was making my own enquiries about him and it would seem he is not too highly rated by certain officers! I suppose you have to do something when you're out, so why not lucrative public speaking for any old cause. The problem is, I don't think he really knows what he's talking about!

"So WHAT cease fire was there?" CK TAN WHAT CEASE FIRE? "A total of 20 rockets and 18 mortars were launched from the signing of the ceasefire until the beginning of November. This represented a 98% reduction in rocket fire four and a half month period prior to the signing of the ceasefire during which over 1,800 rockets were fired from Gaza." Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs. 01-01-2009. The Israeli Foreign Ministry understands what CK TAN is incapable of understanding. NO MATTER HOW LOUD YOU SHOUT CK, dumb comments are still just dumb comments.

indeeD Kemp was a realatively minor battalion commNDER. HE IS ALSO A HIGHLY PAID GUEST SPEAKER AT NUMEROUS PRO ISREAL EVENTS. HE IS VIRTUALLY UNKNOWN IN THE uk. I suppose though when everybody and his brother has seen through the Israeli lies any support no matter how dubious the origin is useful

"Goldstone asked for an independent, judicial inquiry, not a military one" If the MILITARY context is NOT important to his OWN mission, then goldstone has NO need for Colonel Desmond Travers, a former officer in the Irish Armed Forces. But he did, The SAME context MUST also be PART of the judicial inquiry since the commission, if set up, is EXAMINING what happened in a MILITARY op. In any case, a JUDICIAL inquiry does NOT exclude feedback from MILITARY experts, such as the case of Your ONE LINER answer CLEARLY shows that you do NOT understand what you are REPLYING to.

(retry) mark lincoln, get a GRIP on REALITY. Up to Oct 08, there were - can you COUNT, mark? - 25 VIOLATIONS during the "CEASE FIRE" by hamas and friends. So WHAT cease fire was there? And by the time Israel launched Cast Lead, there were nearly - can you COUNT, mark? - 400 projectiles FIRED into Israel by hamas and its affiliates in gaza. And during the FAKE lull, hamas were BOASTING that they were BEEFING up their MILITARY capabilities as to ATTACK Israel. Again, can YOU count, mark?

Hell of a job to read out loud some pro-Israel propaganda paper..

... if only there would have been SOMEWHERE to escape to... ... would Israel or Egypt have opened their border crossings for escape of the bombed out Pal women and children of Gaza...?

Since Isael has an established history of leading, Since Israel does lead on issues of human rights during armed conflict, Since the world is literally begging Israel to lead, May as well lead! How about a daily blow by blow comparison and reflective analysis, of the Gaza operation, with the current operation being conducted by Pakistan. The current claimed Pakistani death count is now at 115 Taliban, no mention of civilians, 16 military. Should the measure of Islamic outrage be included? Articles, speeches, and Sermons, can be counted and graded. Should the US and EU response be graded as well? So far Pakistan has asked NATO to close the Border to Afghanistan, to prevent Taliban escape. Granted, who is getting reflected, in this reflective analysis, could become vague and confusing, but I'm sure Israel and the world could grow from the process.

that all folk!!laughing is the best medicine:)

Hamas was not ignored.

implicate Israel in war crimes.' Yup, probably the tooth fairy or Easter bunny. Seriously Middlestanian, the Pentagon ordering the IDF to commit war crimes? You are having a laugh, yes? It is blindingly obvious that the Israeli Government, with an election coming up, sought to present itself as firm, decisive war leaders whom the electorate could depend on. Trouble was, there was no war, the Gaza ceasefire was holding and rockets had shrunk to a trickle. Easy answer - break the ceasefire, that got the rockets going again. The war had to be quick - done and dusted before election week - with no major loss of Israeli life. So easy answer: ignore Geneva Convention, blitz Gaza with everything we've got, pull out in time and claim Hamas used human shields, to justify civilian casualties. It could have worked. However, they lost the election. And then the world reacted. The facts M, only the facts.

He would do better as a leader of Meretz. He certainly is not fit to be a DP or Likud.

Has he ever set foot in Gaza? Was he witness to events in Cast Lead? Are his main sources of information on Gaza delivered directly and exclusively by the Israeli military whilst on joint exercises? Furthermore: "Many missions that could have taken out Hamas military capability were aborted to prevent civilian casualties." False assumption. Israel demonstrated its ambivalence toward civilian casualties in both Gaza and Lebanon. Utilising Dayan's 'mad dog doctrine' consistently. What kept the IDf from 'taking out Hamas' was the 200 men it was estimated would be the cost of taking Gaza City alone, not humanitarian concerns. Domestic political ones. "War is chaos and full of mistakes" Yes like 'Bloody Sunday' in N. Ire I suppose. Only some mistakes are more deliberate than others. The problem is Israel's mistakes include, destroying 90% of Gaza's arable crop, destroying sewage plants, hospitals, ambulances and dropping white phosphorous over heavily populated areas whilst being filmed by news teams whom Israel were not able to effectively censor. Spoken like a real soldier.

That voices talking in Israel's favour saying that Israel did not commit war crimes should be ignored? "And I say this again: the IDF did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare. dropping over 2 million leaflets, and making over 100,000 phone calls...... Many missions that could have taken out Hamas military capability were aborted to prevent civilian casualties...... During the conflict, the IDF allowed huge amounts of humanitarian aid into Gaza...... To deliver aid virtually into your enemy`s hands is, to the military tactician, normally quite unthinkable. But the IDF took on those risks......" sh: "Let us investigate the Gaza operation and draw appropriate conclusions" What do you want to investigate if you refuse Richard Kemp testimony?He has something to say,but you don't want to hear him.Why?

WE all know about the 'moral army'. what we did not know yet is about your morals. Now we do! Thank you. PS: about the destruction of civilization... which one is it?

A Gaza war probe is needed to answer the question: "From which office in Washington DC were the Israeli army commanders getting instructions" What was done in Gaza was clearly intended to harm Israel's image, and the peace process. Of course, Israel could have defended itself, and attacked Gaza without committing war crimes. Someone influential, wanted to implicate Israel in war crimes. Simple rule: The weaker are US allies, the stronger is the USA.

State supports decision not to charge cops filmed beating Palestinians This is the State, and so the Army, and how can we argue that what is said in the Goldstone report is not true...

which is a pro-Israeli lobby organisation affiliated to the American Jewish Committee. It's not Human Rights Watch, which is a respected NGO. If I recall correctly, Kemp commanded the original battalion-strength force at Kabul airport in 2003, which is not quite the same thing as running the show in Afghanistan!

Ezra Nawi is fined NS750,000 and gets a one month sentence for helping Palestinians. The ?violence? is on Youtube. Nothing of the sort. (2) Deputy State Prosecutor Shai Nitzan rejected an appeal against the decision not to investigate Border Police officers who documented themselves abusing Palestinians (3) Meridor is quoted as saying the IDF should investigate itself, to defend itself against outside accusations. Three headlines. In one police act the victim, and a civil rights activists for Palestinians is convicted. In the other, the State declares it won?t prosecute Border Police officers who filmed themselves beating and abusing Palestinians. Meridor says ?one of the best means of defense is for a state to investigate itself." Well it investigated the ?leftist activist? and fined him heavily. It investigated the Border Police, found the films convincing, but decided not to prosecute, and clearly Meridor?s declaration comforts itself with this second finding. Whatever investigation the state does will condemn pro-Palestinian activists, whitewash the agents of the State, and Bob?s your uncle.

-ns? Asymetric warfare not only with the pals would be perpetuated with this submissive approach of Meridor.

What the terrorists couldn't do on the battlefield they attempt through court rooms...pathetic. Israel should not dignify this with any amount of attention. Just keep on fighting the terror and sharia domination attempted by hezbollah, hamas, syria and Iran!

This is trumped up charge...that wishes Israel to face yet another hurdle in fighting terrorism...this time in the form of lawfare...this needs to be soundly rejected and denied precedent!!! Israel fought the islamo-facist hamas who target civilians and then hide behind civilians...this cynical equation cannot be alloud to flourish or civilization will be destroyed! IDF is the most moral defense force on the planet!!!!

They ignored it of course,as they did the bits that did not suit the mandate they gave to Goldstone. Mary Robinson saw it coming and refused to participate,Goldstone could not resist the limelight. How do you interpret what the BRITISH,highly experienced,military intelligence officer said about how Hamas etc operate? What he said about the IDF? How do you like the way the UNHCR operates? Fill you with confidence & trust in the UN?

Goldstone asked for an independent, judicial inquiry, not a military one.

Meridor has got it. We watch our government representatives push away ally after ally because of its positions on topics that should be sorted out by diplomacy, not by obstreperousness. The latest is France and this has ramifications. Why can Mia Farrow visit Gaza, but not French FM Bernard Kouchner? Because France did not vote against Goldstone at the UN but chose, instead, to absent itself from the discussion. Why will Michael Oren not talk to JStreet? Because it's against the occupation which these days is construed as being anti-Israel (!?!). Why have we lost Turkey as an ally? Why are the neighbors that have a peace treaty with us scratching their heads? Our present bull-in-china-shop foreign policy cannot be saved by smoothie band-aid in the shape of Netanyahu speeches. It has to be changed. Let us investigate the Gaza operation and draw appropriate conclusions. Let us not turn Goldstone into Masada.

Despite the fact that Goldstone dutifully ignored Hamas fighting without uniforms amongst civillians?

Despite all of this, of course innocent civilians were killed. War is chaos and full of mistakes. There have been mistakes by the British, American and other forces in Afghanistan and in Iraq, many of which can be put down to human error. But mistakes are not war crimes. More than anything, the civilian casualties were a consequence of Hamas? way of fighting. Hamas deliberately tried to sacrifice their own civilians. Mr. President, Israel had no choice apart from defending its people, to stop Hamas from attacking them with rockets. And I say this again: the IDF did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare. Thank you, Mr. President.

The IDF faces a challenge that we British do not have to face to the same extent. It is the automatic, Pavlovian presumption by many in the international media, and international human rights groups, that the IDF are in the wrong, that they are abusing human rights. The truth is that the IDF took extraordinary measures to give Gaza civilians notice of targeted areas, dropping over 2 million leaflets, and making over 100,000 phone calls. Many missions that could have taken out Hamas military capability were aborted to prevent civilian casualties. During the conflict, the IDF allowed huge amounts of humanitarian aid into Gaza. To deliver aid virtually into your enemy's hands is, to the military tactician, normally quite unthinkable. But the IDF took on those risks.

Thank you, Mr. President. I am the former commander of the British forces in Afghanistan. I served with NATO and the United Nations; commanded troops in Northern Ireland, Bosnia and Macedonia; and participated in the Gulf War. I spent considerable time in Iraq since the 2003 invasion, and worked on international terrorism for the UK Government?s Joint Intelligence Committee. Mr. President, based on my knowledge and experience, I can say this: During Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defense Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare. Israel did so while facing an enemy that deliberately positioned its military capability behind the human shield of the civilian population. Hamas, like Hizballah, are expert at driving the media agenda. Both will always have people ready to give interviews condemning Israeli forces for war crimes. They are adept at staging and distorting incidents. The IDF faces a challenge that

It wouldn't matter in the end. Anyone who knows anything about how the IDF operates know exactly how such a report would end up showing: that Israel, once again, displays a remarkable regard for human life, far more than any other country now or throughout history in regard to human life. All the blind diplomats are going to say is that the report's a lie; since it will be done by Israel it's worthless. It's impossible to find a non-biased investigator (as the Goldstone report clearly shows). And even if you could, it would never come before the UN HRC. So why even try?

If Israel would return to the core principles that have sustained the Jewish nation for the past four millenia, and put its trust in God rather than Man, it would tell the nations that so-called "international law" is a hypocritical sham that's based on no valid principles, and that's respected by no one, least of all Israel's Arab enemies, and that such "law" has no relevance to, or jurisdiction over, anything that happens in the land that God chose as His own. Israel is governed by the laws of God, not Man, and although we don't seek conflict, we won't abandon our principles in order to avoid it either.

A serious independent enquiry into the Gaza war is the best way of getting out of this mess, and ensuring it doesn't happen again.

Hamas fired rockets at israeli towns with iranian rockets and wants sderot and ashkelon to themselves. Hamas was firing rockets at chemical plants. Go investigate sudan, russia/georgia war, u.s invading iraq, u.s and nato in afghanistan. U.S goes around the world and attacks when no rockets are falling on the u.s. UK army doesn't investigate their abuses. Meanwhile Iran committed genocide against sunnis in iraq. Enough already with the hypocricy. I can't take it anymore. Goldstone report is not going to the hague. The general assembly will send it to the ICJ for an advisory opiniion. It is a complete waste of time.

There is no solution, no point of possible agreement between Israel and the Palestinians which both parties can live with. It is in the worlds' best interests to solve this problem. Therefore the world will need to 'sweeten the pot' to get this problem solved.

"And what will this "independent committee" say? Besides the usual song and dance that Israel did not commit any war crimes in Gaza?" - Ryan That mistakes were made.

"They should investigate to protect Israel`s army. How can anyone expect their commission to be unbiased?" - Apa Do you think the army acted without orders? Who told the Army that the war must have few casualties? Where would it get the idea that the primary target would be the infrastructure and not the terrorists? Who allowed right-wing religious extremists to distribute literature encouraging troops to atrocities? Do you think the IDF is so lacking in discipline that Cast Lead was conceived and executed without political direction? Who made the decision in late September or October - while the cease fire was working - to start the war with an attack upon the police academy graduating class? Is it really possible that the actions designed to end the cease fire were devised upon the initiative of a field commander? It would be most possible to protect the IDF if the men who made the decisions were identified. In the end there is a man who might well bear the entire blame.

the problem with these guys is that they might see the wisdom and firmly believe in their ideals... but that's where it ends... because as much as they profess; they lack the political courage to take it any further.

Judge Goldstone left a way for Israel to save it's honor. Investigation. But it is not a path without pain. It was Israel's politicians who ordered a war with few casualties and one which wrought great suffering upon the people of Gaza. I am certain that hospitals and schools, UN warehouses and headquarters would not have been attacked upon the whim of a soldier. If there were abuses by individual commands and soldiers, one need only remember the literature and instructions given by extremists on the eve of the battle. This was Israel's second war where the primary objective was clearly the punishment of the civilian population - not necessarily killing them, but most certainly destroying the infrastructure, homes, businesses and standard of living - was the first objective and defeating the terrorists the second. This has backfired twice upon israel. It is in the self-interest of Israel that the who, why and how of this second disaster be investigated. Or it will happen again.

Not sure what problem Israel has with an internal probe of the war in Gaza, but if it considers the IDF butchers innocent as usual, then that's fine, but the rest of the the world might have a different take on that!

Besides the usual song and dance that Israel did not commit any war crimes in Gaza?

Notice how he didn't say they should investigate because of the possibility of unjustly killed Palestinians. They should investigate to protect Israel's army. How can anyone expect their commission to be unbiased? Mirroring his statement regarding "one of the committee's members stated prior to the investigation that Israel commits war crimes" - I assume he will find a committee composed of members of which none has stated that he or she thinks Israel DOESN't commit warcrimes.