Class war in the IDF

Your heartless, bias, and arrogant ignorance in answering Sahab Antoine shows how racist you are. Shame on you for having the nerve to answering after seing images like that. Take another look, http://www.lebzz.com/vb/leb.htm maybe your conscience will revive, and send me your drastic pictures and lets compare. Jews amongst ALL nations should have empathy with others!!!!!!!!!!

The safest place during a battle could be the tank,especially if you think that your tank is indestructible and much more sophisticated than the rest of them out there. Well, ladies and gentelmen this was not the case in Lebanon.The mighty Merkava appeared like a missile magnet.That was an Israeli pride gone in the toilet.It appears that Hezbollah, with their tactics, invested a lot in their ground defensive weaponry and probably did not anticipate that Israel wil use their airforce in that magnitude, so I will not be surprised if they acquire any anti-aircraft missile very soon and uses them in the next battle. Can Israel afford their MAIN pride to suffer the same fate as the first pride? Well I say to the Israelis: Save those Merkavas or what's left of them, paint them yellow-they'll look good in yellow- and use them for Taxi cabs and at a low fare of course... Just a thought.

So then, what do you say to the white citizens of the USA. Australia, New Zealand, the Chinese of Tibet The Spanish and Portuguese of South America. the arab murderers in Darfour, the russians who killed 40,000 Chechyians etc?

After the first Lebanon War in 1982 which ended with Zvi Feldman, Yehuda Katz and Zecharia Baumel Missing-in-Action nobody would believe that the IDF wasn't doing everything to bring them back, dead or alive. Now that the truth is coming out of Lebanon War No. 2 perhaps some of the IDF reservists will remember their comrades who didn't return and do something for them.

After the first Lebanon War in 1982 which ended with Zvi Feldman, Yehuda Katz and Zecharia Baumel Missing-in-Action nobody would believe that the IDF wasn't doing everything to bring them back, dead or alive. Now that the truth is coming out of Lebanon War No. 2 perhaps some of the IDF reservists will remember their comrades who didn't return and do something for them.

Mayer [not Meir] Amschel Rothschild died in Germany in 1812. His son, Nathan [ben] Mayer moved to London in 1803. In 1806 he married Hannah, the daughter of Levi Barent Cohen and sister of Moses Montefiore's wife. Every word of Berzak's tale about Waterloo and the Rothschilds is an out-and-out fraud. I am shocked that his editors didn't have the wisdom and knowledge to pull his piece. I'll be happy to send details to anyone who asks. I do not believe any of Berzak's unpleasant tale.

Ari..are you kiddind...Bush and his Christian right Buddies ..Pat Robertson..Jerry Falwell.. and others..They want ARMAGEDON..They want to save the Chosen people and pave the way for the messiah to come.. WITH WHAT BLOOD....With Jewish..Palestinian..and Now Lebanese Blood..While they watch... Read what Yousef Burg said about these evil people and what they like to see..

its no different in any other place. dump the arguement that israel has no partner for peace....create one. given the right approach that is possible.dont let a few settlements and half of jerusalem, come in the way. a well thought out dignified proposal will get an instant response from thr pali street.the hatred and mistrust will take some undoing... how do you convince a family to forgo hate if their child has been uselessly killed. but it can be done. the rabo/bellin plan is the answer

Your polemic is based on an untruth.X did not take y's land.Y is falsely claiming X took his land. THAT IS THE BIG LIE. Goebels must be very happy.

Are you upset about the treatment of your comrades-in-arms or do you have some other axe to grind.? Most people really hurt,do not launch into some historical tid bit but go straight to the heart of the matter. If there was incompetence or worse surely that is what readers need to hear first and foremost.

http://www.imemc.org/content/view/20525/173/ The Israeli government's Foreign Ministry is involved in efforts to influence public opinion on the Internet. 's Foreign Ministry orders Internet propagandists, so called "trainee diplomats," to skew online polls and public forums to conform with the Israeli line. This is an organized effort, using "special 'megaphone' software," to alert "hundreds of thousands of Jewish activists" so they can manipulate Internet websites and chatrooms to conform with the slant that already permeates mainstream media. In the past week nearly 5,000 members of the World Union of Jewish Students (WUJS) have downloaded special "megaphone" software that alerts them to anti-Israeli chatrooms or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints. A student team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to flag the sites so that those who have signed up can influence an opinion survey or the course of a debate.

To Dana: you wrote "There are no synagogues in arab middle eastern states" You are wrong - there are some. for instance - in Tunis. The one that gor blown up a couple of years ago with a bunch of German tourists in them. To Abdo: you wrote: "I bet you don`t know a lot about arabs and arab countries, do you?" You are right. I do know very little. I would like to learn more (not being sarcastic). I'm sure one can find reasonable, peace-loving people. But somehow what I see (and many people on the West) is: slaughter of Arab by Arab (see Iraq or Syria Hafez Asad vs. Homs, Black September), theocracies (like Sudi Arabia - do not tell me you know Jews or churhes there..), terrorism where everybody's killed right and left - right and wrong, Jew, Christian or Muslim, lack of freedom, and zillion other things. But above all - continuous, unprecedented denial and lack (absence) of retrospection. They are never wrong: it is Israel, USA, Britain, West and their aunties. It is just not us.

Thanks for the update. Through sites like Slashdot I get indeed a pretty sorry impression about current US justice - RIAA lawsuits, patent litigation etc. Comforting to hear it was once better - hopefully such times will return. The state in Holland hasn't improved either in the last 20 years. Lawyer's fee reimbursement for poor has been curtailed, leaving a lot of people who can't afford the couple of thousand bucks needed for a simple court case - not to speak of the emotional stress it gives anyhow.

Abdo also wrote: "you won`t find any walls in dubai". I see... Abdo, is anyone blowing peaceful Arab families enjoying pizzas in a restaurants? Or blowing up buses ? Or shooting indiscriminately ? I know what you will say - "Israel is also bombing civilians". I will not give you all 9 yards about who is right and who's wrong - we will never agree on this. But I'll tell you - Israelis do not celebrate on the streets when this happens (IAF bombing that is). That alone somehow tells me a lot... To Dana: unfortunately you are poorely familiar with the history of Middle East in the 19th-20th century. Jews did leave relatively peacefully in some countries (e.g. Marocco). But very bloodily in many others (e.g. Iraq, Palestine before the WWII). I, in fact, spoke with many Jews who left different Middle east countries. They were nostalgic sometimes, but none said they enjoyed eauql rights. If life of dimmi is "peaceful" for you, than it is peaceful.

Dana, Abdo, Marc, my apologies for putting my answers to you in one mail - I hope you won't mind. I'll answer to each of you here. To Marc: thank you for providing the link. I have read some of the stuff, and will try to learn from independent sources in addition to this. You will agree, Marc, that Westerners are a bit suspicious about cloudless reports from someone describing himself. Are there any problems there ? Haaretz criticizes its own country a lot. Or is it that UAE has no problems ? To Abdo: you wrote "the UAE is not an apartheid state". Perhaps. I do admit I know little about it. It does have non-Muslim population (about 4%), however, it looks to me non of them are citizens. Which may be OK, as long as they live decently. In Israel, by the way, Arabs are 20% of population, with representation in Knesset, etc. I might be wrong in calling UAE "apartheid", but democracy-wise Israel certainly beats it hands-down.

The Reservists..and the Abuse they get... This last exercise in Lebanon, you guys were pushed into a Hezbolla's HORNETS' nest...By TWO NO CARING IDIOTS IN OLMERT AND PERETZ... What a waste of young lives on both sides..The next QUAGMIRE will be a REAL nasty ONE...it will be soon and it will be 1000 times worse.. Wise up and Preach PEACE..The CHRISTIAN RIGHT and George want the ARMAGEDON on the JEWS of Israel...and it will happen on George's Clock.. Very sad for everyone who lives in the region..

Thanks for the update. Through sites like Slashdot I get indeed a pretty sorry impression about current US justice - RIAA lawsuits, patent litigation etc. Comforting to hear it was once better - hopefully such times will return. The state in Holland hasn't improved either in the last 20 years. Lawyer's fee reimbursement for poor has been curtailed, leaving a lot of people who can't afford the couple of thousand bucks needed for a simple court case - not to speak of the emotional stress it gives anyhow.

Thanks for the update. Through sites like Slashdot I get indeed a pretty sorry impression about current US justice - RIAA lawsuits, patent litigation etc. Comforting to hear it was once better - hopefully such times will return. The state in Holland hasn't improved either in the last 20 years. Lawyer's fee reimbursement for poor has been curtailed, leaving a lot of people who can't afford the couple of thousand bucks needed for a simple court case - not to speak of the emotional stress it gives anyhow.

What Ori observes in the IDF exists in the U.S. as well. The main difference is that there is no draft here, so the children of the rich rarely serve in the military. The poor fight and die for the rest of us. More than that, it is the young (18-24) who do most of the actual fighting and dying. Old men start wars. Young men fight them. Wise men avoid them.

Agree with you 100%!!!

stop acting like a clod and just enjoy the varied posting. don't get so uptight :)

Thanks for the update. Through sites like Slashdot I get indeed a pretty sorry impression about current US justice - RIAA lawsuits, patent litigation etc. Comforting to hear it was once better - hopefully such times will return. The state in Holland hasn't improved either in the last 20 years. Lawyer's fee reimbursement for poor has been curtailed, leaving a lot of people who can't afford the couple of thousand bucks needed for a simple court case - not to speak of the emotional stress it gives anyhow.

Hi Borus, I would like to talk with you over email, we can both learn from each other. I just created an email account specific for conversations with Haaretz people, here it is: arabthatwritesonhaaretz@gmail.com Please email me on it, hope to hear from you soon.

"This is the end, nor safety nor surprise, The End I'll never look into your eyes Again.." From "The end", By the Doors - lead vocal Jim Morrisson (1967?) C'est tout ce que j'ai a dire ce soir But there is a great number of other Haaretz forums... 10h45 near paris 17 degree cold calm and collected. Salut/shalom/bye bye I try again Clod - I have the feelin that pressure is slowing down on class war I could be wrong because war seems to be an endless process...

Again empty rhetoric is useless. Israel is a Jewish state - not a relegious state. Judaism includes religion but to be Jewish means more things than just religion. So Israel is a one and only Jewish state in the world! As far as Apartheid accusation it is just an empty, offensive rhetoric.

you attacked us and have been attacking us since the year 2000 when we left your country. you have taunted us and thrown stones across the fence. i hope israel will not give you a minute's rest.

I am not used with forum on the net I saw that more than 100 reactions and counter reactions. What is the criteria to stop a forum? I feel that almost everybody (including me) has given reactions Do you wait until nobody talk anymore? We are always talking! SaluT/shalom/Bue Clod It's a mystere for me.

Suppose that Haaretz is the only one ennemi Tsahal has to get ride ofF. Tomorrow Haaretz bulding is attacked by special forces. After tommorow I have to read Idiot aronot (phonetic). After I will subscribe on dubai web site The day after tomorrow I go crazy And the next day I die but Israel find peace...real peace firm peace. let's dreaming about this ... It's sound bad but I am leaving 4000 km from Tel AV. I am very cynical and apologize. Bye/Shalom/salut Clod

Me too I learn something: GULF seem to be the national sport. La grande classe... Clod Salut/shalom/bye

One does not destroy the IDF by telling the truth, but by sending it, ill-equiped and untrained, to an unnecessary war,

Yes it does. And the response of the psycho-reich to his writing is exactly like the Chicken Hawk Draft Dodger Brigade in the US was to Kerry. (I am not sticking up for Kerry here, had the jerk bothered to run against Bush instead of simply expecting to be elected, things might have turned out different).

Well I am sorry for all the crying voices on this page...Spoiled children always cry when they dont get what they want...But hey you guys should be proud coz you blood thirsty arrogant leaders have achieved something really good out of all this. They have even manged to turn an non religoius person like myself who have worked with lots of jewish people around the world for over 16 years into a person who will problablt start teaching his kids how to hate and forget the dream about one day we could live in peace with such demons at our south and east borders...why dont you guys stop crying and reakise that nobody will win from seeding hatered and yes i agree that children on both sides have been taught hatered and only sick minded poor souls will carry on doing so cause blood on both sides is valuable. thank you haaretz for being transparent although you dont publish all my comments. face reality stop causing additional hareted..it will not protect you even with the nuclear stenght.

Your commanders still are soldiers.

Reminds me of John Kerry and his opposition to the Vietnam war. Berzack can write!

madam lincoln's messages.they uderstand her deep hatred for bush and are rather worried. i am not surprised.the madam is obsessed.

You introduce a very important issue. It's a pity that a had to leave the computer to my 15 daughter. En plus the english sound perfect. I answer more deeply asap; but it is complex with no mathematical solution... Salut/ bye/ Shalom Clod

the madam goes to the bore for solace: the law in this country is for the rich and powerful" and why the tears.rather simply the lincoln lady tried to run a small business.things did not go her way and she has become bitterly resentful of the wealthy.

When I was a kid Bor de Wolf, there was a more even handed justice system. This has changed more towards the situation of a century ago where the courts exist largely to protect the powerful and wealthy from any responsibility for their acts.

Once again, Haaretz never misses a chance to help destroy Israel. They use Ink like Hamas uses Shahids. This will never get posted, as Haaretz never let's the truth out, unless it could hurt Israel. Sow distrust among the Jews is their mission.

Try learning something about Dubai Greg. http://dubainews.net/

Sgt. Berzak's analysis is immensely fine-nerved and deep. All societies, not just those at war, revolve around this class war; so does politics. Israel's attack on Lebanon intended to turn Hezbollah into the underdog, to elevate itself. Bush's entire foreign policy is intended to split the upper and lower classes to make it easier to turn oil bearing nations into client states and non-oil bearing nations into slave states. In client states, the elite profits from this arrangement, necessitating subjugation of the lower classes to protect their privilege. The slave states will have to manufacture cheap consumer goods to shut up the US public, to safeguard the privileges of US ruling class. Israel is in the middle: a client state without oil, but with money in the US. It is being used to fight Bush's wars in the Middle East to realize US policy. It is why Hezbollah fights with such conviction: to break the class war and empower the people.

For me Tsahal has a very high motivation and very simple. Defend the country of Israel./ Hezbolah just destroy and american in vietnam was not here to defend their country. But To save the world. Sure. Salut Clod

look here bore.i really mean it.its simply not on.what do you mean telling young kids they are difficult to educate? you are just storing trouble for yourselves.what would you do with these kids 10 years down the road? what would they do without an education? do you want to condemn them all to menial jobs? could it be that all those opium dens in rotterdam have clouded your brains?

Yes, Ive seen it - tell Hizbullah and other terrorist groups to look at it the next time they want to plan an attack - And while you are about it, tell them not to hide behind women and children too. Will they ever stop behaving like cowards and grow up into real men? Will they ever learn to love their children enough to raise them as children rather than shaheeds? I doubt it

dutch teachers say that the oppressed moslem minority are difficult to educate.is this not racism? will the opium eater enlighten us?why this wretched treatment of the moslems?

the dutch have put up with minorities for short periods then they have an "intifada" (shaking off)and give the minorities treatment never to be forgotten. we need not remind ourselves of the 1940-45 period.now it seems that the moslems are getting the treatment.they are discriminated against in every aspect of their lives.perhaps the opium eater wolf de bore can tell us more? is the betrayal of moslems in sebrenicia by holland part and parcel of their treatment in amsterdam and rotterdam?

Greg, before the establishment of the state of Israel, Arab jews lived in harmony with their neighbors and fellow arab citizens. There are no synagogues in arab middle eastern states since simply the jewish community was depleted and mind you , not because the they were drove from their original countries but because they elected to do so. As to dubai, thousands of Lebanese christians can assure you that they practice their religion freely. It is not the arabs who are racists; it's the "jewish" state of israel!!

Please explain the value of allowing this post from such a hateful person with nothing to contribute.

Most Jews were in the US long before you (islamists) were allowed in. That was the mistake Does World Trade Centre sound familiar. Oh yes I forgot you cheered and handed out candies. Why don't you crawl back to the hole you came out of. You are a disgusting un-human.

It looks like the people on the short end of the stick, the field soldiers have had enough of being yanked around. Unlike the US, where very frew Americans serve in the military, most Israelis feel a real fear over what has just haooened.

"Kind of hard to feed the family waiting for "justice."" - Mark I agree. And judging from the IBM/SCO case, which lasts 3.5 years now... But we have in Holland "Kort geding" - a fast track trial, with a court session and ruling within 1-2 months. And this kind of problems seems a lot like a slam-dunk case.

"Kind of hard to feed the family waiting for "justice."" - Mark I agree. And judging from the IBM/SCO case, which lasts 3.5 years now... But we have in Holland "Kort geding" - a fast track trial, with a court session and ruling within 1-2 months. And this kind of problems seems a lot like a slam-dunk case.

Always start with the facts, Hubert. It will save you some embarrassment. Your country, Lebanon, joined the Arab League decision under Syrian pressure in 1948 to invade the new state of Israel with the explicit intention of driving the Jews into the sea. Arab leaders called on Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes temporarily to facilate this massacre of the Jews. Documents and recordings attest to this truth. In addition, the Lebanese territory was used by the Arab Liberation Army as a base from which Israeli territory was overrun. Arabs in Israel who chose to maintain peace with their Jewish neighbors remained in their villages. Arabs who heeded the warnings of Arab leaders, or participated in the war of annihilation fled or were expelled from their villages. This is why their are Arab refugees in Lebanon, known since 1964 as Palestinian refugees because you would not give them even basic rights.

i used to live in dubai and I went to church there. Yes, there are also jews, although I don't know about synagogues. I can lay your mind at rest, the UAE is not an apartheid state. The UAE was not built up by kicking anyone out first. you won't find any walls in dubai, greg, because there's no need for one. I bet you don't know a lot about arabs and arab countries, do you?

Regarding the Mauri extrimist story and British rulers,of course you were joking,because you guys contradict yourselves as always,to begin with,you came in the beginning of the last century,killing the palestinians and occupying their land...of course with the help of the British "rulers"...I don't know what do you teach your kids at school about how Israel was created,a nation built on blood of martyrs and innocent people massacred. I think and strongly believe that If you live by the sword, Then you will die by the sword, I can't think of a way how any Palestinian would ever forget what you did to them through the ages...and truth will prevail at last. ....This is how Hezbollah was created, for the only reason that Israel came and invaded Lebanon in 82,so you were the reason of its existance,I think they should thank you for this...maybe one day they will...

Speaking of apartheid states: could you please name me a couple of churches in Dubai ? How about synagogues ? May be a few Jews you know around the block ? By the way, note, I do not say 'Israelis', I say 'Jews'. thank you.

Henry, you are right to be saddened by the story, but, I think, for a wrong reason. You see, the real name of this phenomenon is stupidity and obsession with mass culture. The officer wanted his 15 min of fame, so did his soldiers, as well as pretty much anyone else in the world who watches TV and imagines himself/herself talking to the world. Does what I say make the officer's action less reprehensible ? I guess - 'yes' - somewhat. Agree there is a difference between 1st and 2nd degree murder. Still needs to be punished - I agree with you. But you see, Ori Berzak makes a class act (no punt intended) out of this stupid action. It is "to have" and "nave not" but with some kind of preposterous socio-economically-militarily-hierarchic twist. Twist so obscure, that I'm not sure he himself understands it.

I had exactly the same feeling when reading the paper...despite the fact that I never been in Vietnam Shalom Clod

I dont believe in god. Tell me in Dubai. Do you imagine the dream to live in a democratic country. I never heard about elections in Dubai or about commission d'enquete? maybe I am wrong. Dubai is a democraty and I just dont know. What do you think about "the charia"? Do you support? Are you undifferent? I have no lessons to take from Saudia and all Emirats. God? maybee Clod

Jews will live and prosper, true! Israel will live and prosper, maybe? Not as a religious, and apartheid state, though.

American troops? After the Iraki bloody bath I am not sure it is a goog idea. Furthermore I think that Tsahal and Israel must be independant from USA. Iraki war fail on all fronts (human, politic,etc). More than 2500 US Soldiers are died. Really we dont need US they have already created a very dangerous situation. We have specific problems to solve. Definitly no Us troops in Israel. Situation is enough complex and confusing. let's give a chance to UNIFIL. At least. Cette fois c'est vraiment tard UStroops - No no no - Toda Shalom le coulam. Je vais a lit. Tomorrow is another day. Very interesting forum. My congratulations to Haaretz staff - hard job I thinK Clod

This is BS about a new generation of hate and anger becouse of War. It is becouse the way you bring your children up.

You want us to listen to you but no sane person listen to a broken record filled with hate. Jews and Israel will survive and prosper no matter what you do. Please leave us alone.

Silva, (wellington NZ) well put! As an American tax payer AID or not Israel with help of Amercan Jews via proxy AIPAC (American Israel Political Action committee) owns the US Congress!! Believe me, I prefer to get robbed then have more of them here in the US - we have too many already! Cheers! Suki

No sir, "those ugly facts" ARE NOT "part of the price we pay when we take up arms." You aren't telling the truth to yourself. Those ugly facts are the price we the people pay for electing the wrong leaders - who lead us into unnecessary wars.

once again, haaretz thrives on fomenting disunity and strife within the ranks. i think the editors salivate with glee when the disenchanted whine. this world ain't perfect - so grow up and move on, whatever that may be.

Fighting a war is not only about guns and bombs, its a battle for the logistics. Supplying your troops as well as providing solid inteligence are some of the easier things to do when trying to gain the upper hand in a armed conflict. No matter how good your army is there will be casualties, preparation and planning will cut down the number. Its all about calculating the risks. But when a general halts supplies just for show there is no doubt in my mind that one should investigate the brass and commend the grunts for doing their duty enduring the added hardship imposed by their own. Knowledge is power. Even when holding a gun.

Sorry but It is not a pathology specific to Israel - Same in France and many other democratic countries. Dont be so pathologic. If you can Salut Clod

Jack I dont disagree with you but maybe you read too much. "The parents who live the children". I cant believe this and my rare contacts in israel support me. Sorry Its Nine thirty here Shabat shalom herev tov et salut Clod

Please read the folliwing quote that accurately reflects (check if you want any Rot. biography) where Rothchild's money came from. Ori Berzak wrote utter non-sense; you see people already had pigeon mail at that time - no need to "prepare the boat in advance". But of course, sounds beautiful. And as much non-sense as everything else Berzak wrote. ============================================= "The basis for the Rothschild fortune was laid during the latter stages of the Napoleonic Wars. From 1813 to 1815, the Rothschild family was instrumental in the financing of the British war effort, handling the shipment of bullion to the Duke of Wellington's army in Spain, as well as arranging the payment of British financial subsidies to their Continental allies. Through the commissions earned on these transactions, the Rothschild fortune grew enormously."

Most of the messages are racist, antisemit-like from all the middle west including Poland and Dubai! So much hate. No compassion at all. I am shocked again. Is that the price to pay for a democratic country. I dont support the way the war was handled. But I am in France war away (too far could be) from Jerusamem Shabat shalom - herev tov ClaudeB

This article is devoid of any point, except one - narcissistic whining under the sauce of Hemingway-like memoir. Do not be deceived by the class indignation, pile of facts that do not make sense (prove to me - who is fired in Israel while serivng in the army; give me the place/time where IDF stole from Lebanese - you see, the Arab press is quiet about it but Berzak is not!) and little threads of pseudo-history/literature here and there. What woodwork did the author come out, is he reading Hemingway and Erich-Maria Remark exessively and imagining things ? Granted, IDF had problems in the war - complacency, exessive dependency on the political circles, planning stupidity, etc., etc. Those need to be analyzed, and culprits punished. But give us a break with Berzak's sophmoric new-found sense of inequality! Has he just discovered that being a participant of events gives you a carte-blanche to write non-sense about them?

IT does not matter if tsahal the best army in the world. For the first time since bible at least we have an army. Israel is the lonely democratic country in middle west. What do you want to prove ? specially from Poland which is the greatest jew cemetary in the world. I know israel and my grandfather borned and died in poland. Stop with greatest army. Think about - merci ClaudeB

This comparaison with world war II is irrelevant, insane and it's a shock for me. I Disagree with this War but Tsahal has nothing in common with what your show in your site. Stupide - 6000000 of civilians jews were assassinated between 1939 an 45. I try not to be upset. It's hard ClaudeB

Israel's greatest weakness is its pathological need to air its dirty laundry in public. Shut up, already. The world is watching and listening.

Please clarify - I realy didn't understand your point. merci - ClaudeB

it seems that the author of the article considers profiteering traitors to have "class". (Leaving troops without food - that is not exactly loyal, now is it ?) I cannot help wondering just what IDF officers would do for money. and I'll bet that somewhere, right now, there are some rich backers of those who despise Israel who are wondering exactly the same thing.

There are no "difficult decisions". There are decisions difficult for the people to accept. It is all in our hands. As long as the people is unwilling to confront reality, no one can force it to open its eyes, and see that you cannot keep a foreign and seemingly weaker people under a 40 long years military occupation and not be prepared to pay the price.

It?s not like your God to tell me what I think or not think. Also you do not understand my deepest thoughts, all you see if a few responses from me here and there. So let God do the judging of me. I can dialogue with you on other issues, other than myself, as this forum is not about myself, it?s a 60-year-old Arab-Israeli conflict. Here we are discussing the systems that are causing such a conflict and we both agree that the systems need to be changed, in one way or another to bring peace. I personally do not agree with the Zionist dream and I think it?s the source of the problem, not because its ?the Jews? but even if they were ?x? or ?y?, its hard for me to buy the idea of some ?x? coming to ?y? land and kicking them out of their homes and taking their land and putting them in refugee camps and denying their rights and and and ? You may have a different opinion but I still listen to you, I hope you listen to me.

Well said indeed. It's no wonder the IDF got licked in this war. Soldiers worrying about their next mortgage fighting people whose homes they destroyed.

To Jack----Sorry to disappoint you, but the future of Israel is strong, very strong.I worry nights over the future of Europe.Boy, you have your hands full, and it will only get worse over time.I just hope you don't export your home grown radicals.

I am saddened to read this. If true the colonel should resign. An officer's duty is to his troops first...to see them to their objective and back safely. He can stop for photos after the battle is over and after his men are fed and taken care of. p.s. pretty sure the Rothschild story is fake.

No amount of the USA president hoping the IDF won will make it so. If the Americans are so concerned why aren't THEY offering troops?

Marilyn you are correct, you hit it on the nail. Thank you for your great response. I need not make one since you said it all. God Bless You!

Cheap and one sided French-Arab propaganda. There is no single picture of Israeli casualties or desttruction of Israeli homes. Very cheap propaganda

I was very impressed by this paper congratulation to SGt berzac israeli's heart of darkness not everybody can capture such a situation -Claude

No sir, "those ugly facts" ARE NOT "part of the price we pay when we take up arms." You aren't telling the truth to yourself. They are the price we the people pay for electing the wrong leaders - who lead us into unnecessary wars.

You were in Lebanon stealing the food while your bloody army and generals were bombing food supplies to the Lebanese civilians trapped by 450 Kg bombs dropping all around them. Then you lived in their homes after they had been told to leave only to be bombed on the roads. Then you dare to whinge? Shame on you indeed. A lack of equipment? The Palestinians and Lebanese have WW11 rockets and you run while pounding them with thousands of tonnes of bombs, cluster bombs, phosphorous bombs and depleted uranium. You "evacuate" a few thousand people in comfortable buses while your army bombs all the roads and bridges to bits in Lebanon stopping people from escaping and you dare to feel sorry for yourself. What a sick joke that is. Of course though, not too much of that is your foult, just don't whinge so much. Imagine if you are a 19 year old kid in Iraq or Afghanistan for years on end, or an Iraqi civilian bombed out because of false information given by your generals. Get a grip.

I think the reference of Vietnam is not a good reference when we see the disaster for US and thousands family soldiers, for all that tons and tons on north Vietnam by B52 + napalm. I was the hurry between officers and soldiers... It was often when politics dosen't support their soldiers.Vietcong=communism ideal, hezbollah=fight for god,IDF=fight for what?The worst is that situation start again before end of this year.Shana tova

Time to go after the right wing elements of the IDF. They careless disregard for civilians lives is the leading factor why international pressure was brought to bear on Israel to end the military campaign in Lebanon. So not only did Israel lose the war, they lost the respect of the internatioal community and above all they lost the respect of their key ally the USA. Israeli right wing elements in the IDF are out of control and must be held accountable for the failure of the Lebanon campaign. All Olmert did is to give the IDF the freedom to operate and win. But the IDF failed Olmert and failed Israel thanks to their uncontrollable urge to kill and destroy without even using a sembalnce of rational thinking where costs and benefits calculations are key to every decision to bomb. The logic behind the cost/benefit in selecting targets for bombing was utterly flawed and in cases such as Qana and the UN observers' post, was criminal.

We have protection for reservists and national guard here in the US. But if the employer decides not to honor the protection it ends up in court. Kind of hard to feed the family waiting for "justice."

We are the NATION that gave "Ethics" to the rest of the world!! --- With lines like that you'd be a big hit at the Comedy Store.

'sh', it appears you have never even visited Israel, let alone properly researched IDF rule book or the Basic Laws that form the backbone of Israeli democracy. Terminate the Law of Return? And what do you propose to do with all the Jews who are subjected to anti-semitism in various parts of the world? Throw them in the sea? As for border issues; Olmert's government was elected on a ticket of resolving the problems. Seems like hamas & hizzbollah put a spanner in the works. All sounds rather counter-productive to me. Anyway, 'sh', have a nice weekend & try not to get too wound up about life. After all, its only politics (with a little religion thrown in as a teaser) & there are an ifinate amount of alternative things to do & enjoy in this world. I find rock music & a glass of wine with some cheese is quite nice after work on a Friday.

"Yup, Bor, there are legal protections to prevent employers from firing us while we serve. The author, or the "ones waiting to be fired" were apparently unaware. There was also additional legislation plassed during this war to prevent exactly that." - Yonatan Thanks for the clarification. But what does it say about a country that has been ruled for so long by Labour, that they think this might happen? "But I always wonder, what are the Hiz complaints (there always are) and when will we see them in print?" - Yonatan Why don't you ask them? You captured some of them, didn't you? And I also read they know Hebrew. Please report back to us! "You know, Nasrallah and staff living large while you guys die;" - Yonatan I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't. Many ideological leaders - whether secular or religious - live or lived very modest lives. It's the unideological ones - like Bokassa, or Mobutu, or Marcos - that heap fortunes.

"Yup, Bor, there are legal protections to prevent employers from firing us while we serve. The author, or the "ones waiting to be fired" were apparently unaware. There was also additional legislation plassed during this war to prevent exactly that." - Yonatan Thanks for the clarification. But what does it say about a country that has been ruled for so long by Labour, that they think this might happen? "But I always wonder, what are the Hiz complaints (there always are) and when will we see them in print?" - Yonatan Why don't you ask them? You captured some of them, didn't you? And I also read they know Hebrew. Please report back to us! "You know, Nasrallah and staff living large while you guys die;" - Yonatan I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't. Many ideological leaders - whether secular or religious - live or lived very modest lives. It's the unideological ones - like Bokassa, or Mobutu, or Marcos - that heap fortunes.

we get a lecture on legal protection for soldiers from the country whose soldiers betrayed 8000 moslems at sebrenicia.

The Israeli political landscape lacks any strong leader that is capable of making the difficult decisions that will lead Israel from a state of chaos to a state of peace and tranquility. Netenyahu is not even a "has been", he is more like a "never been" leader who bungled peace treaties with the Palestinians and who beleives in the bigger hammer policy which proved to be a failure.

Throughout the history of Israel, God has prepared her for battles that were to come. One major way the He did this was to cause them to come into conflict (war) with other nations, other peoples. Through these battles both the strengths and weaknesses of the army of Israel were brought to light as they were being prepared and strengthened for a much larger battle to come, one that only can be won with God's help. I believe that this is such a time.

horribly written article....

WE KNOW THESE PEOPLE HATE US. WHY WASTE MY TIME WITH THEIR MALICIOUS COMMENTS ? MOSHE

I am an American who reads the articles on your Internet web site. My impression is that your army came up on a hardened, professional military force of guerillas in Lebanon. It's time to rethink your strategy.

"Yup, Bor, there are legal protections to prevent employers from firing us while we serve. The author, or the "ones waiting to be fired" were apparently unaware. There was also additional legislation plassed during this war to prevent exactly that." - Yonatan Thanks for the clarification. But what does it say about a country that has been ruled for so long by Labour, that they think this might happen? "But I always wonder, what are the Hiz complaints (there always are) and when will we see them in print?" - Yonatan Why don't you ask them? You captured some of them, didn't you? And I also read they know Hebrew. Please report back to us! "You know, Nasrallah and staff living large while you guys die;" - Yonatan I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't. Many ideological leaders - whether secular or religious - live or lived very modest lives. It's the unideological ones - like Bokassa, or Mobutu, or Marcos - that heap fortunes.

The Hizbollah expected to stand and die. The IDF expected to wrap up a quick victory and get back to their real lives. I think that, under the circumstances, the Hizbollah were more focused on the task at hand.

"For those who cares about their exams, whether in the Israel or Lebanon were not so happy with all what happened." - Nazih I fully understand. Of course it's awful. But what I meant: when I worked at university, we would accomodate for people who missed an exam for a serious reason, like an illness. Surely for those who were called on arms, or who had to flee their homes, such an accomodation would be made? Even more so with the sniper who was fired. To me that's inconceivable. In high school, I had a teacher who was an officer at the cavalry reserve. Once a year or so he would be called upon for a week of training. No problem, even if he missed some teaching to do. So therefore my question, is there no protection for these people from losing their jobs?

Jack old beanstock no need to be unsure of Israel's future. If peace is made with the Palestinians and they have their own state Israel will live for long and honourably as fully acrredited member of ME comity of nations. If Israel chooses to exist under a barrage of stones and rockets behind a wall that imprisons the Israelis more than it keeps the sons of the soil, the Palestinnas out, then the future indeed is bleak for Israel Jack, only Israel and no one else can give the Palestinians a state. Only the Palestinians and no one else can give Israel the legitimacy and legality to exist in the ME as a respected,accepted, sovereign Jewish state on equal terms with all states in the region. Jack, may Allah guide the Israelis and the Palestinians to a just,fair,honourable,peace and co-existence.

Are you guys telling me that my tax $$$ and the aid from the US is supporting your war crimes and land grab policies of Israel? What a same. Something has to be done in the US to stop this historical tragedy!

Sorry to hear this garbage. The US armed forces may not be perfect in every way, but, frankly, never encountered ANYTHING like this in US armed forces. Protexxia kills!

You loosers have been trying to blame your lost either at your generals or politicans. But before you decide to go to war with lebanon. Read lebanon' history from Alexander the Great to Olmert the Weak. Lebanese people are the greatest fighters in the world. it is in lebanon that resistance was born, it is in lebanon that resistance lives, it is in lebanon that resistance never dies, losses or weakens. so do your homework before you decide on going to war with the unbrakeable nation of lebanon. long live the cedars.

"For those who cares about their exams, whether in the Israel or Lebanon were not so happy with all what happened." - Nazih I fully understand. Of course it's awful. But what I meant: when I worked at university, we would accomodate for people who missed an exam for a serious reason, like an illness. Surely for those who were called on arms, or who had to flee their homes, such an accomodation would be made? Even more so with the sniper who was fired. To me that's inconceivable. In high school, I had a teacher who was an officer at the cavalry reserve. Once a year or so he would be called upon for a week of training. No problem, even if he missed some teaching to do. So therefore my question, is there no protection for these people from losing their jobs?

Yup, Bor, there are legal protections to prevent employers from firing us while we serve. The author, or the "ones waiting to be fired" were apparently unaware. There was also additional legislation plassed during this war to prevent exactly that. But see, we have a free press, and I agree with some of the authors observations. I experienced some of them, too. But I always wonder, what are the Hiz complaints (there always are) and when will we see them in print? C'mon you Hiz guys, surely you, like any soldiers, can come up with something. You know, Nasrallah and staff living large while you guys die; Iranians reaping the benefit while you die. The poor Shia fighting while Amal politicians prosper and Christians luxuriate in North Lebanon. Hiz health insurance tied into martyrdom. No educational opportunites except in Persia, etc., etc. Write often. Shalom!

One cannot also deny the power of "educating for peace" pushed by rich liberal Jews during Oslo period. The sad result is that Jews don't care for each other - only for their portfolios. BUT THIS WILL CHANGE!!! I believe - although I am an atheist - that Jews will understand that they have to take of each other because noone else will.

May be this sheds some light on how mighty the idf is with women, children and unarmed palestinians but how the men separate from boys when faced with a well organised, structured armed resistance with a leader of a clear strategy. just thank your enemy didn't have as much weapon power as you or you would not stand a chance.

One cannot also deny the power of "educating for peace" pushed by rich liberal Jews during Oslo period. The sad result is that Jews don't care for each other - only for their portfolios. BUT THIS WILL CHANGE!!! I believe - although I am an atheist - that Jews will understand that they have to take of each other because noone else will.

but, FOUR LOOSERS do not equal for winners

The lead story mentions that the single soldiers are going to flee to other lands. And, I have read that many young married Israels do not want to stay in Israel and raise their children under continuing "war like" conditions and/or contining fear from adjacent Arab countries. What does the future hold for Israel? Will it exist 50-100 years from now?

I do not believe Ehud Olmert is an Ethical Leader nor is many of the Top Brass in the Military. We are a "Jewish" nation! and must elect leaders based on their "Ethical Character". We are the NATION that gave "Ethics" to the rest of the world!! Let us not loose site of our priorities. We can not elect a prime minister just because he is "anti settler", look at this mess we are in because of our emotions with the Gaza withdrawal. We have a small time crook and an Ice Cream salesman for prime minister and minister of defense!! I think Menachem Begin was a man of character, and I think Olmert is a small time crook. We must look deep into ourselves and elect people because we think they are "good" rather than what brand of ice cream they are selling on any given day. We get the military and political quality of whom we have voted for, so just blame yourselves, for being selfish and voting like a goy, "with your emotions and not with your head".

For those who cares about their exams, whether in the Israel or Lebanon were not so happy with all what happened. In other words ... destruction does not only concern houses, roads, and gaz stations ... it concerns the people themselves!!! A new generation of hate and anger is nourrished by what happened ... and tha helps none to live in peace ...

The story recounted here is is a myth, but a very popular myth. It was made popular by countless anti-semitic plays, books and movies since the 1800s. (Examples: The play Rothschild Wins at Waterloo by Eberhard M?ller (1936), The film Die Rothschilds by Erich Waschnek (1940) [Later renamed Aktien auf Waterloo (Shares in Waterloo)], and the films Jud-S?ss and Der ewige Jude (The Eternal Jew). I am surprised that this made it into print in Haaretz...

"This article simply shows that Israel has grown up into a regular country;" Only it wasn't supposed to be a regular country. The army was supposed to be a moral army. Some still think it is. If it is going to be a regular country - a regular democratic country that is - it had better fix its borders with international agreement, write a proper constitution and terminate the law of return.

See what u've done http://www.lebzz.com/vb/leb.htm if ur happy that u exist in the land of others continue and good luck.

Great article on the class distinctions. Reminds of Kubrick's "Paths of Glory". What struck me was this paragraph: "The sniper on team 3 is waiting to receive a warning that he will be fired. He has been away from his new job for a month. The medic, the team leader and the guy handling the grenade launcher are unsure about what to do with the semester exams that they have missed." Pardon? Israel has conscription, and has its share of wars. Isn't there any legal protection for those called for duty?

We note with interest your negative remarks about Israel, in this & other forums. This article simply shows that Israel has grown up into a regular country; pretty well every army has the same 'officers & ranks' problem. Your comments on US aid: around 3% of Israeli GDP as opposed to 14% to Jordan. Perhaps you are envious that you have not gained independance from your British rulers? Or would you rather Israel was wiped off the map Iranian style? There are few alternatives in today's Middle East. Perhaps at least acknowledge the fact that many reservists have put their lives on the line to confront this threat. NZ is an isolated island nation with no neighbouring enemies; what would your reaction be if you had constant terrorism right on your door step (maybe from mauri extremists)? Please see things first hand before relying on biased TV reports. Have a nice day.

You just don't know Israelis.

You are against all mentioned: rich - poor - privileged - underprivileged, as long as they are Jews. Did you think we hadn't noticed?

this article is very depressing! i really understand how you feel, and you should aslo be ashamed, guilty, and embarrassed!

...I do not live in Israel..I have never been there...but what I have always heard that Israel has got the best army in the world...ready to fight with giants...I've heard lots of disscussions on CNN or BBC....I've read lots of articles bout last libani- israeli confrontation :they all have been very wise....deep....etc. ...but that short testimony by Ori gives idea what war is ...and how ordinary people are in ...so called -the best army in the world....

Far offtopic, but Klee, the painter, was some sort of war winner as well. He helped the war winners to make their money more bautifull in the time after WW I (when he did put paint onto airplanes..). Again, that Mossad phantasie of spreading distrust amongs Hezbollah supporters, as explained here some days ago, wouldnt it be fine (not very honorable, you better take them serious), is hitting the home country...

i can tell you,my dear ori,that your thoughts are shared by many of the best writers/poets who ever wrote on war,from whatever side they happened to be.i thought things had improved considerably since our generation(golda's suckers),idf being so much richer.to israel's credit-you got published.peace,take care.

Soldier or General, working class or Capitalist, opportunist or humanist, politician or plebian, it is AID FROM USA that matters for Israel. The crux is that. Without that AID from USA, Israel will emigrate itself to USA.

Leaving behind the false lie of the zionist dream to be buried at the expense of the poor Jews.

Dear Ori Berzak, Staff Sgt. (res.) Please use this courageously truthful, shocking voice of yours to continue to point in the direction we must look. Only then can we hope to better what is wrong. More than hope, we must do, otherwise we are truly lost, defeated not by evil enemies outside, but by those within ourselves. Thank you also, very much, for risking your life for us.

As as American Jew who spent six years in the US Army Reserves during Vietnam years...... Ori Berzak's words resonate strongly for me. In any war, no matter how noble the reason for conflict may be, there is a class war within the military that will always tear at the fabric of the cause. Ori's right, the winners win big, the losers wind up in coffins and army hospitals. I remember in our medical combat training, seeing the trucks carrying tons of materials that we could waste to our hearts content, because there were factories around the country with govt. contracts just pumping out more and more and more. It was hard not to think about the people that owned those companies, when sitting with a wounded soldier in a hospital or burn ward. Ori is right. but those ugly facts are part of the price we pay when we take up arms.

I'm agree aboveall the conclusion.Times are changing, the israeli society also.There is a big difference between defend his country, like in 67 and 73 for Israel and attack for defend themself and also is a very strong mistake to attack when you don't know exactly the field and that says Ori if there is no motivy among troups.