Can a U.S.-Israel deal on settlements stop the settlers?

Hi Bob, I agree with you that the US should butt out of Israel's business. Until israel can act like a civilized nation, cut all ties and most of all, stop the huge open wound to the US treasury that America's association with Israel causes. Do you know that Israel gets more US foreign aid dollars every year than all of Africa and South America combined? Do you care? I agree the US should butt of of Israel's business. They money saved every year would go a very long way to solving the health care funding problems in the US.

One of the largest problems the U.S. is dealing with these days is the ego of Barack Hussein Obama, whom thinks he knows what is best for everyone and has the answers for everything; however, as the American people are beginning to realize, he knows very little about solving economic problems and evenm less about distinguishing our allies from our enemies. Freud would have a field-day with him, and I personally think he should keep out of Israel's policies. I have a lot of other criticisms concerning our misguided leader as well, but unfortunately not enough space to enumerate them. However, he needs to just but-out!

"Axel, why are settlements an impediment to peace?" (Peter Williams) Here is why: 1- Settlements built amidst a foreign, stateless and hostile people necessarily entail military occupation. 2- No one has ever heard about an occupied people having made its peace with the occupier. Not in modern time. As simple as that.

The Arab League in a 2000 declaration of its peace offer recognized the State of Israel. The UN recognizes Israel as the State of Israel. Every country in the world recognizes the name of Israel as the ?State of Israel.? Why does Israel now demand that the Palestinians recognize Israel by some other name? Are Palestinians to be denied peace negotiations because Israel has thought of a new name for itself? It is a phony issue and a new ploy by Israel to continue its illegal occupation of Palestinian territory.

The Arab league recognized the State of Israel in its peace offer of 2000. The UN has recognized Israel as the State of Israel. Why must Arabs now declare recognition of Israel again by calling it some other name. The entire word recognizes Israel as the State of Israel. The Arabs should not be bullied because of some new name that Israel decides to call itself. It is a phony issue designed to keep illegally occupied Palestinian land.

...when the people of Israel get sick of religious head cases from America coming over here to park themselves in the Occupied Territories, draining resources that would be better spent in, I don't know, improving Israel's education, infrastructure and healthcare, so they can have IDF soldiers guarding them 24-7 while they don't even bother to learn Hebrew, disobey and sometimes make open threats against the government, and provoke incidents.

PW: "Johnboy only wants to freeze the settlements that will clearly end up in Israel`s hands." I said that targetting *those* settlements is the only EFFECTIVE way to instigate a freeze. PW: "The only explanation for this variation on Roadmap is that Johnboy`s argument is not motivated by 'impediments to peace'. Johnboy`s arguments are motivated by 'punishment to Israel'. " Follow the bouncing ball, Peter: 1) IF Bibi can continue to grow the large settlement blocks absent a final agreement 2) THEN he has no incentive to negotiate towards that final agreement 3) BECAUSE he achieves his goal by refusing to negotiate. But..... 1) IF the large settlement blocks are frozen 2) AND the only way to unfreeze them is to reach a final agreement 3) THEN Bibi has no choice but to negotiate that agreement. That's not "punishment": it's "commonsense". Something you obviously lack, Peter.

Once again, an American president is made a fool of by the Israelis. When will they learn? The only way to get Israel to freeze its settlement building to to CUT THE AID. All else is empty words.

Kudos to Peace Now for doing the heavy lifting . Ignorance of what is happening in the settlements could have granted the settlers even more cover. Now, can the army stop helping set up the electricity grid for them? Give me a break. Stopping the caravans is as easy as stopping the water and electricity service. Not to mention the Army cooperation. A serious state can do that. Can Israel?

Well because the Pals tell us they are and they have managed to convince enough people that they are. OK. So that's why we have Roadmap asking for a freeze then? But then we have Johnboy saying that he doesn't care if there is no freeze in those settlements that are clearly going to end up in Pal hands. JB:"After all, why should anyone really care how much the sacrificial lambs get fattened up before Bibi hands them over to Abbas?" Johnboy only wants to freeze the settlements that will clearly end up in Israel's hands. The only explanation for this variation on Roadmap is that Johnboy's argument is not motivated by "impediments to peace". Johnboy's arguments are motivated by "punishment to Israel". One argument, although fundamentally flawed, is directed at achieving peace, the other is is just plain antisemitic. Why am I not surprised that you also put your hand up?

Your posts show unusually good journalism skills. You could get a job anywhere in the world, perhaps a place without checkpoints, land thieves, cattle rustlers, prune canners or anything else that bothers you. What the heck are you doing sitting there reliving some glorious irrelevant past? When Egypt got too nasty, the Jews left town. When things took a dive in 70AD, they left J'lem. When Germany went bonkers, they went back to J'lem. They are flexible and pragmatic. Try it yourself.

When Arabs agree to a Jewish state in Israel then all these issues can be answered.

PW: "For you the freeze is more about punishment to Israel and to make life damned uncomfortable for those settler Jews." !!!!!! Mitchell wants negotiations that lead to a final peace agreement. That is *his* bottom line. Bibi wants negotiations where he can (a) make demands that Abbas can't accept, so that he can (b) shout "we have no-one to talk to!" as he storms out the door. That is *his* bottom line. Mitchell must create a situation where Bibi CAN'T do that, because if Bibi DOES then Mitchell has lost, and the talks fail. Q: How does Mitchell stop Bibi doing that? A: By making settlement HOSTAGE TO THE TALKS by freezing construction. The more PAIN that freeze brings then the better for Mitchell, because the more squeeling coming from the settlers then the more INCENTIVE Bibi has to drop all that grandstanding shit and cut a deal. You really can't see that, Peter?

If there was a button labeled "Everything built by Jews in the Green Line disappears", would you press it? Every building, school, hospital, every road, every bridge, every water well, all the electrical lines, the TV, optical fibre, cellphone, sewage processing, everything disappears. Instant transformation back to the middle ages. Do you think you would be happier riding around on a donkey, with no ability to comprehend the world around you except through gossip over tea? After you pressed the button, would you personally work hard for a Pal state in the green line? Building schools, homes, hospitals, water wells, sewage processing, cellphone, etc etc. Or would you leave the WB to find a better life? Just wondering.

Arafat placed you all in the position. He sent his wife and child to France. He had the hidden bank account. He forced Israel to set up check points. He didnt care if you lost your jobs in Israel. There is plenty of work for thee Pal if your leaders wanted it. But the more hate, the better it is for them

There is a solution: The West Bank ( not Judea and Samaria, nor the Territories as it is called by Israel ) will become Palestina. Governed by them, with their laws. The settlers can stay, as Jews -with no guns- but as Palestinian citizens with the same rights Israeli Arabs have in Israel. Whether they may use the for "Israelis only" road system and/or must go through chechposts to move or go to Israel proper, needs to be worked out with "road map 2 "

To my deep regret you appear to be right on Obama. The man is a soft doctor and soft doctors make stinking wounds as we all know. I do feel silly I must say telling you to have patience. But do you have an explanation? Why are the US and Europe impotent regarding Israel? Is it love, is it guilt, is it fear, is it dislike of Arabs, why?

in Tel Aviv. Half my family kicked here from Yemen, another Arab state that ethnically cleansed its Jews. The other side of my family is 8th generation Yerushalmi. I do not use religion as an argument. Jews are also called a nation, with their own Mideastern language, and with Israel one of the oldest states known, Jews have been here at least as long as anyone else. This simple fact may be hard to accept, but it's true. But speaking of religion, when Jews first lost majority here to the 7th century Arab conquest, many who stayed converted to Islam, by force or otherwise. Perhaps you have some" Jewish in you", yourself? A very interesting video on the subject: http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-279707

No. But we could follow the money trail of tax free funding for West Bank settlement growth. The loopholes need to be closed and applied regardless of country.

You did not answer my questions: - Where were YOU born? - When did YOUR ancestors settle in Palestine? - When did Nettenyahoo`s or Liberman`s, or Peres`s, or Barak`s, or ... If you use religion as you argument, you and Iran become the same.

"...I have been living in Palestine for hundreds of years. We have records that prove that..." - Ramzi Jews have records proving their families lived in Hebron, Jerusalem, Tiberias, Safed and more for thousands of years. Hebron, for example, has the world's oldest continually settled Jewish community, over 3,000 years old. Yes, let's not rewrite history!

but I am sure more people are checked daily on this side of the green line than on the other side, where by far most Arab villages hardly ever see the IDF. Such is war with cousins - everyone gets checked. IDF going into the big towns for terror busts lessens as terror decreases. Violence brings violence. Peace brings peace. The day Israel was reinstated, who warred on who? The declared Arab intent was extermination of such magnitude they warned the Arabs living here to clear out to avoid the invading armies. The aim of Israel's elimination remains, in Hamas and Fatah. If your building of another Arab state takes precedence over the destruction of Israel, peace may come. If we on both sides see we are related, yes Jews belong here too, peace may come. Unsustainable? In the meantime Palestinian Arabs in Israel are among the most funded, well-sustained groups anywhere. None starve, plenty are super rich, and more work together just fine with settler Jews than one may want to admit.

Not only under Geneva IV, but under Israel's own black letter law, Israel is prohibited from permanently purchasing land it has conquered. It can only rent it with no change of ownership and only for a military need. Israel never bought a single dunam. Israel still has not paid a dime in rent due.

Israel has yet to honor any of the agreements when it comes to settlements. Why? It's Simple! Because it allows them to increase the size of their state. While Israel will agree to no more settlements in exchange for what it wants, it again will not honor it. Israel will act helpless in stopping the settlements and claim they have no power to stop it when in fact they secretly promote it. Later the Pals, in their fustration because of it, will fire some rockets and the whole thing starts over again.

"Could it be one doesn`t remember that most settlement lands were BOUGHT by the Israeli government from private landowners, not stolen?" "Jews have been in Yehuda and Shomron long as anyone; some never even left. Never forget it." You're WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, dead WRONG. I NEVER sold my land to the GOI. Neither did the hundreds of my family members and friends. The GOI and criminal settlers STOLE our land... the orange groves in Jaffa, the olive trees in the WB, and the many houses and properties in Jerusalem. I have been living in Palestine for hundreds of years. We have records that prove that. Where were YOU born? When did YOUR ancestors settle in Palestine? When did Nettenyahoo's or Liberman's, or Peres's, or Barak's, or ... You get the picture. Learn history. Don't invent it. Never forget it.

Calls Tel Aviv 'occupied' so naturally you should vacate that city.

Many settlers are religous zealots more intent on taking "God-given" land than achieving peace. They have little regard for Palestinians whose families have lived there for generations. Unfortunately the majority of Jews committed to truth and justice have no influence on these settler zealots. The USA must wield as much economic and diplomatic power with cooperation from the developed nations to assure the settlements stop and/or are abandoned. Palestine will never be free while while the zealots continue to live in Palestine and attack Palestinians with the protection of the ID.

Palestinians are put in jail for all kind of ridiculous things and then these scumbags can't be put in jail?

The issue of settlement is like a minor war. Obama vs Bibi vs Abbas,Lieberman vs Sarid,Axel vs Sam,Kiwi girl vs shimi,Since Obama took over the oval office the"war"on the settlement is on. What would happen when or if we will move to the next steps,borders,refugees,Jerusalem, demilitarization,How long would that take?.But don't worry in two years time we will have ever lasting peace,ask Obama!he promised!!!

Could it be one doesn't remember that most settlement lands were BOUGHT by the Israeli government from private landowners, not stolen? Some of the sellers later (and sooner) died over these sales, but they were sales - most were accepted just fine. And why must a Pal majority need jobs from a few Jews, anyway? Western Shomron is still a big olive grove, covered. Much abandoned, needing no irrigation. Whether a grove is owned, abandoned or both, when used over and over as cover to fire at cars, parts need clearing - period. Archeologists agree that cooperative terrace farming here was first brought by the Jews (who likely got it from Mesopotamia), the ancient terraces all built first by Jews... In other words: Jews have been in Yehuda and Shomron long as anyone; some never even left. Never forget it.

Could it be one doesn't remember that most settlement lands were BOUGHT by the Israeli government from private landowners, not stolen? Some of the sellers later (and sooner) died over these sales, but they were sales - most were accepted just fine. And why must a Pal majority need jobs from a few Jews, anyway? Western Shomron is still a big olive grove, covered. Much abandoned, needing no irrigation. Whether a grove is owned, abandoned or both, when used over and over as cover to fire at cars, parts need clearing - period. Archeologists agree that cooperative terrace farming here was first brought by the Jews (who likely got it from Mesopotamia), the ancient terraces all built first by Jews... In other words: Jews have been in Yehuda and Shomron long as anyone; some never even left. Never forget it.

From where I am, I see, live, and suffer from Israeli control. Every day. The ugly and potent occupation force, not only stole my land, but my spirit. The apartheid wall. The formal jails. The "open" jails. All clearly show the power of Israel over me, the occupied Palestinian. Now you're telling me, that most powerful Israel cannot enforce the law over the settlers??? The pathetic lies and the land theft continue while we, Palestininas, suffer daily. This is unsustainable and will soon backfire on Israel in a major way.

Can a US-Israel deal on settlement stop the Settlers?without a mandat from the Israeli population,no!with the mandat,yes! So we are back to the question of trust,when the Israelis will come to trust the Palestinians they will give the mandat to their government. That trust will come only when the Palestinian will work for a state,and not for destroying another state.When or if they will do that, Israelis will stop the settlers.

I wish you both peace and a Shana Tova.

Palestinians work buidling the setlments because there is no work in their own territories. Better to grab settlers shekels if they can and use it against the vile settler notion, than have nothing. The settlers greed will eventually be undermined by hiring cheap, desperately poor, Palestinian labour.

"For you the freeze is more about punishment to Israel" Johnboy is abolutely right in assuming that the freeze is felt as a punishment in Israel. Unfortunately we have to deal with a country where keeping its own promises is perceived as being punished.

Yonatan and Esther, both of you are right.

It is possible Netanyahu has a rational plan, whereby Israel aims to get the settlements West of the wall and sacrifice those to the East. I fear that is optimistic. Israel is in the grip of Revisionist Zionists, who believe they are ENTITLED to occupy all of Palestine and expel the Arabs living there. And even if not entitled, they will do so anyway. It is an old 'might is right' belief from 19th C Europe that was supported by Irgun, is official policy of Likud and is subscribed to by the far right - and apparently 56% of the Israeli public. And as Yonatan says, the nature of the Israeli demographic is becoming more fundamentalist by the year. As well as a self-serving belief, it is also a self-serving practice. Settlements = cheap homes, free land, money, jobs for administrators and service providers, it is a whole micro economy in itself. Add state collusion in the enterprise at every level and you have a runaway train that no one can stop. Obama has to put the brake on.

... especially since my TA grandchildren live so blissfully happy and unaware of the future that is liable to be theirs... ... yet that has nothing to do with my own present obligation to enunciate load and clear the sins and misdemeanors of the present powers-that-be... ... must we bend to the dictate that might-is-right... that the wicked shall prevail...?!

So Johnboy, if I hear you right you don't care about the freezing settlements that you expect to go to the Palestinians. But you want to freeze the settlements that you expect to go to Israel? So this isn't really about settlements being an impediment to peace. For you the freeze is more about punishment to Israel and to make life damned uncomfortable for those settler Jews. Glad you cleared that up for me. JB:"The construction that has to be frozen - where the *pain* must be felt - is in those "settlements that Israel expects to keep"."

that there is much truth in your analysis of the situation.

Take away people's sources of livelihood by appropriating their land, deny them freedom of movement, prevent them exporting their goods and then, lo and behold, offer them work (at below market rates) and they 'gladly' accept your immense kindness. Really, Jochai, you haven't understood the first thing about how occupation and apartheid operate have you?

You wrote: "I hope the Hamas and Fathah wake up and make up and make peace between themselves without further delay. If they wait much longer, they will soon find out when they wake up that there is no more West Bank land available for them to create Palestine because they will see only Israeli settlements all around them. United they stand, divided they fall. Why don`t they understand such a simple, plain fact?" The Palestinians have always been their own worst enemies. Do you know how many opportunities they have lost to set up a state of their won, each time on less and less territory?

There is no great motivation for Israelis to stop the settlers. They don't see peace on the horizon.The Palestinians find every excuse not to accept a Jewish-majority Israel. The Palestinians will accept a 2 state solution as long as both states are Palestinian. Barring that, they will accept a one-state solution if it is Palestinian. Barring that they would unilaterally declare a state (again) in which they don't have to accept a Jewish Israel. Barring that, they will take a hudna if they don't have to accept a Jewish Israel. Most Jews will care little if the settlers settle or not.

The 'freeze' Israel proposes involves continuing to build new housing at just about the rate she always has. So no fear: the settlers won't have to stop. They can keep on settling. For only six months of course. Then they can resume settling. Must we keep having to deal with this compulsive dishonesty? I mean, others lie, but Israel takes lies as her point of reference. Like now: we have to seriously listen to this discussion of the merits of the 'freeze' that isn't a freeze.

The Haredi, Hardal and National Orthodox p[opulation of this country is growing much faster than the secular and liberal sector. It won't be long before secular schoolchildren will be in the minority. This means that the right will become stronger, the left weaker. This, taken together with the increasing proportion of Arabs in Israel, in spite of the Soviet immigraton, means that 20-30 years on, Israel will not be a country that I would like to live in. Luckily I'll be dead by then. But what about my children and grandchildren?

The settlers, instead of trying to realize their messianic dreams in land which has never been a part of the State of Israel, should have instead built their settlements in the heavily Arab-populated Galilee and Negev, which are internationally recognized as part of the State of Israel. By doing so, they would have saved the State of Israel much wasted money and loss of favor thorughout the world, they would have saved themselves much heartbreak, as has already happened to them in Gaza and will undoubtedly happen to thtm in the West Bank as well, and - MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL - they would have changed the demographic balance and stopped the increasing Israeli Arab demands for political autonomy in the HEAVILY Arab-inhabited parts of Israel - the Galilee and the Negev. But they did not and they won't, so let's kiss the Galilee and the Negev goodbye.

The Pal laborers have to make a living for their families, but the settlers prevent them from doing so honorably, by appropriating arable Pal lands, systematically destroying Pal property, as has been seen so blatantly by the burning and uprootimg of olive trees.

Hi Haaretz Fan, I hope so too. I hope the Hamas and Fathah wake up and make up and make peace between themselves without further delay. If they wait much longer, they will soon find out when they wake up that there is no more West Bank land available for them to create Palestine because they will see only Israeli settlements all around them. United they stand, divided they fall. Why don't they understand such a simple, plain fact?

it's just that it deprives 42% of any rights. Barack Obama will make it clear that that isn't something the US a support forever. The apartheid system in Greater Israel reminds him to much of South Africa's. He is an African-American and talks constantly of Lincoln and has Martin Luther King as his hero. Either Israel agrees to set the Palestinians free or it has to allow for true democracy, not his strange notion of "Jewish Democracy". The Cast Lead was Soweto revisited and it is only so much a kind soul can take.Every time the "ball" is in the Israeli court they let out the air before handing it back.

Abraham Linciln went to history as the man that went against slavery. Martin Luther King as the man that finally gave them their rights and Obama will go down as the man that allowed for Banusteins? I sincerly doubt that. He has already(in Cairo)made the comparacy between the Palestinians quest for freedom and that of the Afro-Americans of the US. It's high time he shows his hand. Equal rights, one man one vote.

Palestinian construction workers and gardeners build the small paradises of the settlers, because The Pals no longer want their own state in the WB. so who cares besides the antisemitic press?

AIPAC is removed from power, and its tentacles extracted from American Government, American media, and American money institutions.

... straight into the settlements... ... so that whatever Obama does, they help to undo... ... dealing with settlement removal requires co-operation at all levels...

... if they want to see and enforce it can be done... ... if there is collusion or neglect, the settlers will get the better of them... ... those who commit daylight-robbery unhindered, will have a surfeit of chutzpa in every situation...

"But the[y] DO NOTHING. And nothing is a far more persuasive argument than all the blabber in the world." Quite so! Since actions, or in this case the lack of any actions, always speaks far more loudly than words.

Nobody should care about "those settlements" which Obama will anyway give to Abbas. That is the equation Palestinians would get the bloc of setlements that Israel expected to kee forever in exchange for recognition of the jewish state and abandoning the demand of right of return. Till that happens the sttlements can keep growing. We might accept that Johnboy. It is a good deal that will ensure the settlements to grow forever.

"Thus the simple fact is the Settlers will have their way. They rule Israel, they can do as they wish." Ah, me! I am very much aftaid that Mark Lincoln is correct!

Hi Amos, This is one of the few columns you have written that has made me stop and think for while. You have peeped behind the curtain and seen what exactly is happening there. You were not supposed to see what is happening because it's meant to be a secret, which will be revealed only in the future at the appropriate time, after bringing the Saudi, Egyptian and the Palestinian leaders inside the tent with one entrance and no exits. The settlers can count on President Obama and the Western learders to support them all the way. The Western leaders will pretend to help the Palestinians until all the orchards and farms of Palestinians are confiscated and new settlements are established. Is it possible that President Jimmy carter is right? There will be only one state, not two states?

I never thought that a time would come when I agree with Mark Lincoln of Houston, Texas. I do belive now, with great reluctance, that the UK and other powerful nations in the West, and of course, together with Obama, are on the side of the settlers and against the Palestinians, inspite of what they say in public. What they say does not really matter; what they do indeed matters. And what they have done is nothing to stop the settlers. Financial and military aid to Israel keeps flowing. Only when it stops will I believe that Obama is really serious about establishing Palestine. Until then it's just talk and blabber with a dazzling smile.

Did the Americans know about Israel's intention to build? How long will the freeze last? These are the main questions everyone is focused on. And as long as people are focused on these issues, the settlments will go on expanding in spite of the arguments up front. Will Israel give up its main strategy to build Greater Israel? The answer is no. The settlements will continue, hopeful expectations notwithstanding. There will be no deal between Israel and the USA, except one which favors Greater Israel and the American arms manufacturers. Why? Basic principle of economics. There is no better way to end a severe recession than by making war. Germany proved that in 1939. And what Israel is doing is the next best thing. After all, Americans are not responsible for what the Israeli government does with the war materiel we give them. And as long as the American people foot the bill, Onward! Onward, Greater Israel!

Every time I read an article like this, I sigh with frustration. It is difficult for me to imagine how these settlers will be dealt with if and when (wishful thinking here) this peace process gets to the level of exchanging land for peace. It's a chaotic situation either way you look at it. The Palestinians don't have much land to build a state on. The idea of a two-state solution at this point in time is null and void. Then again, a one state solution is not much of an option either. I am still waiting for Fatah and Hamas to kiss and make up already!

If the USA and Europe didn't support the Settlers they would take actions to stop them. They do not. They yammer, they hem, and haw, and prattle. But the DO NOTHING. And nothing is a far more persuasive argument than all the blabber in the world.

"Can a U.S.-Israel deal on settlements stop the settlers?" - Haaretz No. Can the Settlers stop any Israeli government from stopping them? Yes. Those are the facts. The Settlers rule Israel. The rest of the nation cowers in fear, or celebrates them. Those that fear them have not the guts to defend their nation, and those who celebrate them wish them total victory. The theory of the Settlers is simple. It is the theory that God gave them the right to take what they want, any way that is necessary, and without the slightest consideration of anyone living there. They have the support of their government, the United States and Europe. Thus the simple fact is the Settlers will have their way. They rule Israel, they can do as they wish.

So there will be no way of stopping construction EAST of the settlement blocks? As far as Obama is concerned that's not really a problem, because everybody knows that such construction is Simply A Waste Of Effort on the part of zealots. The construction that has to be frozen - where the *pain* must be felt - is in those "settlements that Israel expects to keep". From Obama's point of view that's what is important, because it is only THAT SORT OF PAIN that can spur Bibi into negotiating a final deal with Abbas. Not the heartburn of a "freeze" east of those blocks because Bibi will certainly enter into any negotiations having already written off *those* settlements in his mind. After all, why should anyone really care how much the sacrificial lambs get fattened up before Bibi hands them over to Abbas?

The contrast between the oppression of West Bank Palestinians and the free reign the settlers have is all too obvious to anyone, and I don't think too many sane people on this planet would deny that the Israeli state is complicit in the settlers insatiable obsession for annexation of Palestinian land!