Barak, Mubarak talks to focus on coaxing Abbas to negotiating table

Look Bill while their are competing stories as to what was offered, Dennis Ross in his book about the ME was closer to my assessment than yours. Many of the items you mentioned i.e. airspace, seaports, etc. were left open till a later date for a permanent outcome. That only makes sense, since the two state solution has been on the table since 1948 when the Arabs first rejected it. Then waged a war of annihilation against the Jews that has continued to this day. Israel should control these things at first until the Pals prove they are sincere about peace. If Gaza is an example of what will happen when Israel pulls out things don't look great.

The VERBAL offer presented to Arafat by Clinton and Barak would have allowed Israel to annex approximately 80% of the settlements (which are illegal), established "Cantons" or islands of Palestinian territory with roadways connecting these islands controlled by Israel. In addition Israel would have controlled all the airspace, seaports, water rights and all border crossings. Under these conditions a Palestinian state would have been in name only. I doubt any people would consider this a genuine or serious offer for peace.

r: "Natanyahu is not interested in all the territories, he is now riding on a sort Israeli consensus that aims to get as much land in the WB as possible with as little Arab population as possible," The weasel-words: "on a sort" There is no such "consensus" because there is no discussion within the Israeli body politic about what Israel really wants. A nod and a wink and a "nudge-nudge, know wot' I mean?" isn't enough, and no Israeli politician is brave enough to lay it out before the Israeli public and say "THIS is what it will cost us to reach an agreement with the Pals. Do you agree to pay it, or not?" Instead all they ever get are rumours about what the PM du jour is mulling, at which point every man and his dog expresses outrage that he could think such treacherous thoughts. Israelis knows what they DON'T want, and that's giving anything up. But they don't really understand that plan won't work, because no Israeli PM is brave enough to tell them that.

Mubarak and barak..co-axing Abbas... Mubarak and Abbas...co-axing Netanyahu Coaxing to the negotiating table is always better than Co-axing one another.

Bibi is holding the Pals hostage under heavily armed guard until he gets the peace deal he wants from the Arab world. All Bibi wants from Abbas in the meantime is that Abbas be a good little prisoner and not make any fuss.

You are mistaken. Natanyahu is not interested in all the territories, he is now riding on a sort Israeli consensus that aims to get as much land in the WB as possible with as little Arab population as possible, with all Jerusalem included (hoping to change its demography). This consensus includes Barak and possibly most of Kadima. Of course, the Palestinians know this and this is why they will not negotiate in these terms, and (most likely) there will not be a Palestinian state. Only firm action by the US government could challenge the policies of this consensus, but it's not happening and might not happen at all.

Why not COAXING Netanyahu to stop building illegal settlements and outposts? Why not COAXING Netanyahu to stop demolishing palestinian homes?

MfG: "Isn`t that what was offered to Arafat?" Nope. Far from it. MfG: "95% with a land swap for the other 5%?" Definitely not put on the table. MfG: "What was Arafat`s response?" He turned down an "offer" that hadn't actually been "offered" by Barak, and which required him to sign away **ALL** other Palestinian claims in return for a promise from Barak that 1) Israel would annex only 5% of the West Bank (what 5% was never mentioned), 2) Israell would annex all of the Old City 3) Israel would retain an "IDF presence" in the Jordan Valley for a period t.b.a. Everything else - foreign policy, border control, airspace, water, defense, mutual trade, dispute resolution, etc - would not just have been Left Till Later On. Oh, no, far from it: under the Barak offer-that-wasn't-offered Arafat would have signed all of those away Sight Unseen All of that is VERY different to this proposal.

Abbas cannot commit the "Palestinians" to anything. He is not their chosen representative.

try seeing the arbs refusals to compromise beginning in 1920. 90 years later the same disease is running through and so there are no meetings as abbas cannot compromise if he want to be a centenarian ! emigration to arab countries still remains th only viable solution!!

The big issue that psychologically prevents many Israelis from yielding is that "Israel" has more than one meaning to the mind. If you say "should we 'give' the 'land of Israel' (eretz israel) to the Palestinians? People will say no. If you say "should we give 'Israel' (the body of the Jews) to Palestinians? People will say no. But that is not the debate. early Zionists combined concepts, in order to garner support. That maneuver has come home to roost. If Israel (any definition) wants peace, Israel needs a vigorous, cut-throat debate about what they are defending. Continuing to deliberately confuse Zionism with Judaism is not far from having catastrophic consequences. Make it clear to Israelis that the state of Israel is a temporary political entity. But stop making it clear by denigrating Judaism. Zionism is about to take a hit. Do it yourself before it gets done to you.

Abbas should be running to the table! If you want peace, that is. If your just playing a PR game for the Western Media then you do what Abbas is now doing. This is interesting: "guarantees must include a commitment that the territory of an independent Palestine would be defined by the 1967 borders, and that any changes to that will be subject to negotiations between the Palestinians and Israel." Now this has already been on the table since Arafat turned down the 95% offer with a land swap for the other 5%. What was Arafat reply? He started Intifada Part 2. According to some press reports Clinton went ballistic on Arafat, accusing him of not negotiating in good faith. I guess Clinton was the only one surprised by Arafat's refusal. The Palestinians have had many opportunities for peace, they have rejected them all. That is where the saying "the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity" comes from.

barak = mo barak

He stalled 'final status' negotiations while increasing Settlement building. Now he has only announced a 10 month 'freeze' in issuing new building permits. And promptly broke that. If Israel had ANY interest in peace negotiations it would be willing to freeze settlement building until negotiations were finished. Negotiations ARE finished. There will be no real 'freeze' and because of that there will be no intent to conclude negotiations. The ploy which worked many years ago is trite and obvious. Accept it Haaretz and the world, Israel will NEVER allow a Palestinian State and will annex ALL of Judea and Samaria as a 100% Jewish District. Can we not be honest folks? There is no room in Greater Israel for both Jews and Arabs, especially in Judea and Samaria. So how can the Palestinians be saved? Only an idiot would imagine Mubarak, president for life of Egypt, would give them a home. . .

He stalled 'final status' negotiations while increasing Settlement building. Now he has only announced a 10 month 'freeze' in issuing new building permits. And promptly broke that. If Israel had ANY interest in peace negotiations it would be willing to freeze settlement building until negotiations were finished. Negotiations ARE finished. There will be no real 'freeze' and because of that there will be no intent to conclude negotiations. The ploy which worked many years ago is trite and obvious. Accept it Haaretz and the world, Israel will NEVER allow a Palestinian State and will annex ALL of Judea and Samaria as a 100% Jewish District. Can we not be honest folks? There is no room in Greater Israel for both Jews and Arabs, especially in Judea and Samaria. So how can the Palestinians be saved? Only an idiot would imagine Mubarak, president for life of Egypt, would give them a home. . .

He stalled 'final status' negotiations while increasing Settlement building. Now he has only announced a 10 month 'freeze' in issuing new building permits. And promptly broke that. If Israel had ANY interest in peace negotiations it would be willing to freeze settlement building until negotiations were finished. Negotiations ARE finished. There will be no real 'freeze' and because of that there will be no intent to conclude negotiations. The ploy which worked many years ago is trite and obvious. Accept it Haaretz and the world, Israel will NEVER allow a Palestinian State and will annex ALL of Judea and Samaria as a 100% Jewish District. Can we not be honest folks? There is no room in Greater Israel for both Jews and Arabs, especially in Judea and Samaria. So how can the Palestinians be saved? Only an idiot would imagine Mubarak, president for life of Egypt, would give them a home. . .

"the Egyptian president does insist that the United States provide the Palestinian leader with clear guarantees signifying a clear American position." I'm sure he does. Mubarak knows as well as anyone that if the Americans DID have to commit themselves to paper then they WOULD have to admit that the Palestinian position is perfectly legitimate, while the Israeli list of claims lack any legitimacy whatsoever. "Egypt issued a statement, saying it did indeed demand guarantees from the United States but appears to have failed to obtain American agreement." I bet it failed. There is no way that America can give that guarantee without it having the effect of taking the legs clean out from under the Israeli "negotiating position". And no American President wants to face the wrath of AIPAC by doing that.

At the last elections, the Palestinian people choose Hamas to represent them. Israel conspired with Abbas, first in an attempted coup in Gaza, and then by arresting all the Hamas ministers so that leadership would revert to Abbas. Abbas became Israels man. He is not the man that should be representing the Palestinian people in dealings with Israel. If Israel is serious about peace, they should wait for elections and deal with whomever wins. Any peace deal made with Abbas would stink of treachery and corruption.

Why should Abbas have to be coaxed to try for peace, for a Palestinian state and for the advancement of the Palestinian people? Is it a lack of leadership or pressures from more radical Arabs not to deal with Israel. In any event, there does not seem to be a partner for peace negotiations.

Why even bother? What does he control? How many of his people respect him?

Abbas should be running to the table, that is if they really want peace? And this was interesting: "guarantees must include a commitment that the territory of an independent Palestine would be defined by the 1967 borders, and that any changes to that will be subject to negotiations between the Palestinians and Israel." Isn't that what was offered to Arafat? 95% with a land swap for the other 5%? Under the Clinton administration at Camp David. What was Arafat's response? He started the Intifada Part 2. Israel has already agreed to this anyway? Its been on the table for the last ten years. So what will Abbas do? Talk about the settlement freeze, again. Yes it's a Last week Abbas said 1) no to negotiations, 2) no to recognizing Israel and 3) yes to increasing the "resistance" a euphemism for terrorism. Abbas get back to the table and stop the whining before the world finally realizes what many us already know, you don't want peace. It's just a PR game you play for the Western media