Analysis / The Palestinian sine qua non

"I agree as Hamas becomes more political it will become more moderate and that should be a gain and not a loss for all. " Kim--As Hamas becomes more mainstream --I think there will be internal and external demands on it to move away from violence--which will be good. But for the last 8 months it has been Israel who has been the agitator in the territories. It's all documented in the Weekly Human Rights Reports. The Israeli Occupation Forces haven't observe the calm -- day in and day out they are in the territories causing death and destruction. The bombing in Hedera was a result of Israel's execution of a Jihad leader (Luay Sa'Adi) whom the Israeli army painted as a senior commander, a huge "ticking bomb" but he was far from this. Locals said he had already spent 25 years in prison and was just a activist. People are realizing the Israeli army is cooking the books to carry out their vicious campaign against Hamas--which will come back to haunt both people. Dutch

"I agree as Hamas becomes more political it will become more moderate and that should be a gain and not a loss for all. " Kim--As Hamas becomes more mainstream --I think there will be internal and external demands on it to move away from violence--which will be good. But for the last 8 months it has been Israel who has been the agitator in the territories. It's all documented in the Weekly Human Rights Reports. The Israeli Occupation Forces haven't observe the calm -- day in and day out they are in the territories causing death and destruction. The bombing in Hedera was a result of Israel's execution of a Jihad leader (Luay Sa'Adi) whom the Israeli army painted as a senior commander, a huge "ticking bomb" but he was far from this. Locals said he had already spent 25 years in prison and was just a activist. People are realizing how the Israeli army is cooking the books to carry out their vicious campaign against Hamas--which will come back to haunt both people. Y Dutch

Ben-- I totally support the PA as a legitimate body representing the Palestinian people --it's too bad Israel doesn't. I find Sharon's efforts to undermine it with his unilateralism terribly unfair and I condemn his approach. It is incontrivance with international law too. Although, I strongly condemn Hamas' violence against Israeli civilians---I feel until Israel renounces the occupation and leaves the land it now occupies by force --Hamas has every right to resist the Israeli colonizers. In addition, I think you are absolutely wrong to support targeted killings. That is a shocking abuse of power and International law. No nation should be allowed to take the law into its own hands like that ---especially Israel since it was given the laws by Moses. That contradicts God's commandment: "Do not murder" Shame on Israel a thousand times a thousand! Dutch

Instead of attacking the integrity of every Israeli even those on the political left , including Amos Harel I suggest that Mr. Johannes Franzen begin worrying about problems in his own domestic sphere. Sweden's Muslim community which has been responsible for many Anti- Semitic incidents, and certainly hopes to take Sweden to being a part of Eurabia , certainly needs a spokesman, capable of attacking Jews, Israelis, Americans, Westerners with impunity- as Mr. Franzen regularly does. Mr. Franzen . Why don't you worry about the considerable problems you are having at home with the Muslim community in Sweden. We have heard ad nauseum your stereotypical nonsensical views on Israel.

For your own family ernie, slogan was "Go WEST", but your advice to Israelis is "GO REST". as you say, you can't have it both ways.

Hamas hasn't given up its aim of destroying Israel. If the "Pals" go to a civil war, it is their choice. Sorry to disagree with you. But Sheikh Ahmed Yassin repeatedly and cleary said that the only acceptable solution was to wipe the Jews out.

I am young Muslim from India, want to know the views of Jewish friends on thier nation, existence, beliefe in democracy and the premier rights of one as a human being.U must know since our chilhood we hear the sufferings of Palstinians and about their bitter life after being stiped out of thier lands as well as the acts of Israel and its western allies towards them which certainly we call henious, criminal and inhuman with the best of our knowledge. I am sure the jewish community is conveyed the just opposite side of this message since thier childhood and i can confirm it reading thier responses send to this paper and hundreds of others i read which unleash even some vulgur verbal abuse towards muslims..... i honestly want to discuss the issue with some of jew friends who is willing???? bye

Another demonstration in support of Israel to take place in Madrid next Friday. The association Solidarity Spain-Israel and the Federation of Jewish Communities of Spain have called a protest in front of the Iranian embassy in Madrid. The slogan: "Israel, yes. Thanks." The manifesto will be read by the local councilor of the Socialist Party Gotzone Mora. The call is seconded by several other organizations; among them, Association of Victims of Terror, the Movement Against Intolerance, New Generations (the youths) of the People's Party and Socialist Youth of Madrid. The organizers want to show their support to the state of Israel and to call against incitement to hatred and anti-Semitism. http://libertaddigital.com/noticias/noticia_1276264959.html

"Hamas hasn`t say so and they object to any agreement with Israel." Again only ignorance shows. Sheikh Ahmed Yassin express the idea of a long term ceasfire agreement a la the Korean penninsula after which a future generation would need to question the validity of the charter. Then again some people remember only the hasbara.

"If the "Pals" don`t want Israel to get involved in their internal affairs, why don`t they stop terrorism themselves?" Hello? What terrorism has Hamas engaged in since Feb 2005? Radical Israel does give a hoot about peace, Radical Israel wants to be entertained by a Palestinian civil war ... just look at those barbarians now ... killing each other. smug smug.

From your post 26: "Is Hamas wants to behave like the Nazis, it will take much shorter than for the US with the Taliban to kick them out of power. Little risk here." A very foolish and irresponsible assuption. Are you sure the risk is so little? Are you able to think ahead past 1 move?

Its called denial ,Sharon and others think reality is what they make of it. They think they can do one more "shot".They are used to transforming reality with actions. Up untill know it was possible but things havechanged and jelled around a consensus of a two state solution.They have yet to assimilate the fact of the limits of their power. hamas no doubt emboldened by Lebanon and Gaza forget they are dealing aboutthe west bank and Jerusalem now and also think they can use force to remake reality. I hope not too many die before somebody comes to their senses. Regards Danite

if this is a part of the text in the Oslo record, i understand why it broke down. "Any Palestinian who has committed, or will commit a crime against Israel, unless otherwise pardoned (as for pre-1993 Oslo crimes), is subject to Israeli justice. Israel does not, and did not, grant immunity to members of the Palestinian legislature."

Hello Danite, Your post should be illuminating to many here. The Israeli government has already accepted the reality that hamas would be running in the coming Palestinian elections. But their understanding of the situation develops exceedingly slowly. The latest brilliant idea by Sharon is that he will not talk with the PA if Hamas is allowed to run. In other words, no help to Abbas before the elections, no prisoners released, no any advantage gained in the face of the Hamas competition. Of course, after the elections, with serious gains by Hamas, Sharon will wake up or be awakened by the US and be told: You have to talk to the Palestinians, don't you? I have never seen anybody with such short term view of things. Truly unbelievable. Regards, BG

Orquest, how about reading my message #26 which deals with the Nazi example? Or may be this message gave you the idea to ask about the Nazis? There was an answer there too. Is there something you don't undestand there?

That was the alpha and omega of the issue. Regards Danite

Thanks. I take comfort in the fact that no murderer or terrorist can take shelter in political office. "Any Palestinian who has committed, or will commit a crime against Israel, unless otherwise pardoned (as for pre-1993 Oslo crimes), is subject to Israeli justice. Israel does not, and did not, grant immunity to members of the Palestinian legislature."

I understand your point about other countries' internal affairs involvement, in normal circumstances. In the "Pal" case, though, I don't understand. Are they against or for terrorism against Israel? If they are against, why don't they stop supporting the terrorists? Wouldn't the urge their autborities to do something? If their authorities are unable to deal with the terrorists, they should be grateful to anyone who deals with the problem. At least, this is what I would feel in such a situation. As for complaining about the collateral damages, I cannot believe it. Sometimes the terrorists kill "Pals". And have you heard anybody protesting if not against Israel? And besides, they call the terrorists innocent children when they are killed by Israel. They also complain about the terrorists killed. Hamas is a terrorist organization. However, it got a lot of votes in the past local elections. How funny. They call a hudna when it is on their own interest, and a collateral advantage should be for them to get away with the murder. I believe that if the "Pals" have terrorist among them, it is their business how they want to deal with them. And it is Israel's business to protect its citizens.

How can they run when they're for the destruction of Israel? My impression from the palestinian people is the opposite, they don't want the destruction of Israel, but they want peace, like israelis do. Maybe someone can enlighten me, cause i simply do not understand such kind of politics, it's weird, splitted, confusing.... And all this killing? It's so sad to read many posts, israelis have been too used to death and destruction. So has palestinians, you both need shrinks to recover, Seriously! This is not evil meant, i am a good person, and i feel love for you people, but i do not love war, death/killings and destructions. It's proof of serious psychic disturbances to agree with Hamas to participate in any election, how on the earth can Israel negotiate with someone who want her destruction? As far as i know, Hamas has not changed their mind. Another point is of course important, the palestinians must decide themself, but one has to pray they would never choose Hamas to rule a "maybe" future Palestinian state. Imagine the worst scenario:Hamas could win, they want the destruction of Israel, and then Israel has no peace partner, maybe that's Sharon's plan? Who knows in this jungle of just plain weird politics. It's too late for Hamas to be the army for palestinians, they have done too much damage, by target Israeli civilians and tried to destroy earlier peace-agreements, they are not good for palestinians, and Israel is of course also responsible when IDF is killing militants/terrorists, they have no legal protection, no trial, no lawers, no chance in the ocean to proove their case in a court. Is this right, is this secure? And i don't think it's safe to listen to the Bush-regime, people do not trust him, fewer and fewer americans support their president. It's a bad advisor. Well, i had maybe more questions than opinions, but i would preciate some response to some of the questions.

The problem with Abbas is that he is also a terrorist. The al-aqsa martyrizers is a branch of Fatah. He has been a holocaust denier; but in another ocassion, when it was convenient for him, he said Hitler was right in all he did. A few days ago, it was known that the terrorist organizations are joining, including that of Abbas. Why doesn't he stop his own terrorists? He also asked the UN to condemn Israel's killing of terrorists or to stop it. Why he didn't ask the UN to help him to dismantle the terrorist infrastructure, instead, if he is unable to do so?

What if Hitler runs for elections in Palestine? No doubt "Ben Gurion" would argue that "Israel can only gain." Surely Hitler would moderate, not go through with his genocide plan for Jews after he's elected... Another brilliant idea from the left. Hamas, a fanatical enemy bent on Israel's destruction, wants to gain more power to achieve its goal. So let's help them out! Remind anyone of Oslo?

The Palestinians don't want Israel to get involved in their POLITICAL internal affairs. This is common in relations between nations. Your prime minister should not recommend to the voters any Israeli party. I would object to it whether this is my party or another one. I think you probably understand that sentiment very well. Of course, the Palestinians cannot demand that Israel not kill militants that attack Israel. This is accepted by all. When the Pals object to an assassination, it is on the basis that there was "collateral damage", innocent civilians. They don't complain about the terrorists killed. (Sometimes they do complain, but on the basis that this is a vilation of a ceasefire; not as a matter of principle.)

Hello Dutch, Basically I don't agree with your comments here. 1. Israel does recognize the right of a Palestinian state to exist. Sharon made a declaration of his recognizing the two-state solution. That means a Jewish state and a Palestinian state. When Israel was founded, it accepted the UN Partition plan of 1947, which divided the Land into two states. Until 1988, the Palestinians did not accept Israel's right to exist. Since then, the PLO does accept it while Hamas continues to reject Israel's right to exist. I am of course advocating Israel's negotiating with the PA (Abbas) and not with Hamas, since there is nothing to discuss with them. 2. If Hamas continues its terror activity, then of course Israel has to fight back, and the assassination policy removes dangerous terrorists from the scene. You can't just wait for them to come at you. Hamas seems to be willing to abide by a ceasefire for now. When ceasefire prevails, it is not appropriate for Israel to assassinate, which is a violation. But one needs to respond to changing circumstances. 3. The right to life does not apply to combatants, certainly not during a war. People get killed during a war. Geneva convention protection actually (as per the Convention) does not apply to terrorists and militants, only to the quiet population. Dutch, you will be better off if you start defending the PA itself. Hamas is not defensible. They want to detroy Israel, which has no right to exist according to the Hamas charter. (I suggest you read the document. It is very sobering.)

Can someone explain how to keep hamas from running in elections and how to have them at all, what would those elections mean and to what uses Hamas could put their exclusion.Thereisno choice they must be left to run,if not they will e able to question the very legitimacy of the palestinian govt and have every excuse to refuse its orders.Hamas is a problem in or out of Parliment, but the Palestinians must left to go through their paces.If the Govt of Israel had half a brain in its head they would be helping Abbas win and so use Hamas participation in the elections against them by ensuring a strong Abbas victory, instead of handing the PA on a silver platter to Hamas by being the best propaganda tool Hamas ever had. Who could ask for a better campaign manager for Hamas than Sharon?He is the answer to al their image and legitimacy problems, just one word "Sharon" does the trick for them.What some of you trying to achieve in the west bank I will never understand, back up Abbas help him win,negotiate two states , disarm the cultists build the fence, get the hell out and come home. Basta Cosi! Danite

If I was in Sharon?s shoes, I would certainly let Hamas run in the elections. Yes I know what Hamas stands for, but allowing them to run and possibly win would somewhat clear and maybe eliminate the two pronged Palestinian situation. If Hamas is going to loose the elections, they no doubt will went their anger with PA by suspending the ceasefire and attempting to resume terror against Israel in defiance of any PA moves, especially any attempts by PA to instill law and order or attempts of any negotiations with Israel. Then Israel should continue and even increase the fight against them with practically no opposition. If Hamas is going to win the elections, they would have to immediately reshape and overhaul their charters, recognize Israel as sovereign state, renounce and abstain from any kind of terror and clearly state the attainable goals and their approach for the two state solution. (By the way I would have loved to see this act and the reaction by Hamas backers and financiers in the Muslim world.) Everyone knows that they can?t have it both ways. Any attempt to hang onto their ideology after the election will invite the legitimate hostility towards now a primary target of hostile governing body. And not only toward Hamas, but the entire Palestinian population as it would be all Palestinian people who would have spoken. By Israel?s opposition to Hamas participation in the election, Israel is publicly stating what PA is privately hoping for, unable to publicly declare so. It also allows PA the solution of possibly reincarnating Arafat situation. Something in lines of concocting the scheme in attempting to eliminate a Hamas candidate or candidates right before the elections and point the finger at Israel, thus allowing to postpone the elections and continue to govern under cloudy, mysterious and doubtful circumstances.

Kim, I would like to see everyone get along and stop the violence. Sharon needs to help Abbas though. He is working against great odds. Sharon must give him a helping hand. Dutch P.S. I am not sure if you know--but it is disrespectful to refer to the Palestinians as PALs. Thanks.

Dutch, you miss what was first. The first step is that the Arabs didn't want another state and, in 1948, attacked Israel. They have attacked it more times. The last war against Israel is the terror war, which has lasted for several years. The "Pals" don't recognise Israel and so they attack it. Israel defends itself and its citizens. Are you for the destruction of Israel? You always act here as a spokesperson for Hamas.

"I agree as Hamas becomes more political it will become more moderate and that should be a gain and not a loss for all. " What do you base that believe upon? Hamas hasn't say so and they object to any agreement with Israel.

If the "Pals" don't want Israel to get involved in their internal affairs, why don't they stop terrorism themselves?

Sharon and Mofaz may have wisely determined that Hamas' participation in the election was in Israel's interest, contrary to Harel's article suggesting Israel caved in. Consider that a Hamas win in elections support Israel's contention that there is no partner for peace, as Palestinians strongly support a terrorist organization committed to the destruction of Israel.Clearly then, the only solution is further unilateral disengagement, on Israel's terms. Israel, by having objected strongly to Hamas participation at first, has setup its response to the Palestinian elections that benefit Israel. Harel, who has out-foxed who here?

Ben Gurion , I believe Hamas' conflicting goals can be traced to Israel's own schizophenic policies. I hope you can agree it's totally hypocritical of Israel to expect Hamas to accept its right to exist when it doesn't accept the Palestinian peoples' right to exist. Still, I agree as Hamas becomes more political it will become more moderate and that should be a gain and not a loss for all. But then I read in Haaretz's today the Israeli Army chief of staff told the Foreign ministry he wants to continue target killing as he finds it an efictive way to deter terror. Who is he fooling? Now if this policy doesn't present terrorism and fascism all in the same breath. Not to mention this violates the Right to Life which Israel accepted and ratified in 1966 war. "Every human being has the inherent right to life. This right shall be protected by law. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his life" How is Hamas suppose to stay on a straight and narrow path with Israel acting in such an undermining manner? That's not fair. Dutch

Hello Gina, Let me first answer your last 3 questions. Any Palestinian who has committed, or will commit a crime against Israel, unless otherwise pardoned (as for pre-1993 Oslo crimes), is subject to Israeli justice. Israel does not, and did not, grant immunity to members of the Palestinian legislature. For example, Bargouti is a member of the PLC but was convicted, and is currently sitting in an Israeli jail. Regarding your other questions: 1. I don't require any declaration from elected Hamas members. My expectation is that they will moderate on their own, over time. 2. Israel should only negotiate with Abbas, the chief executive of the PA. No negotiatians with parlamentarians is ever called for. It is also fine for Israel to refuse to meet with any member of Hamas, in or out of the PLC, since there is nothing to discuss with them.

Ben Gurion , I believe Hamas' conflicting goals can be traced to Israel's own schizophenic policies. I hope you can agree it's totally hypocritical of Israel to expect Hamas to accept its right to exist when it doesn't accept the Palestinian peoples' right to exist. Still, I agree as Hamas becomes more political it will become more moderate and that should be a gain and not a loss for all. But then I read in Haaretz's today the Israeli Army chief of staff told the Foreign ministry he wants to continue target killing as he finds it an efictive way to deter terror. Who is he fooling? Now if this policy doesn't present terrorism and fascism all in the same breath. Not to mention this violates the Right to Life which Israel accepted and ratified in 1966 war. "Every human being has the inherent right to life. This right shall be protected by law. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his life" How is Hamas suppose to stay on a straight and narrow path with Israel acting in such an undermining manner? That's not fair. Indeed, that's almost as bad as Sharon appearing before the UN in September presenting himself as a peace maker for removing 8,000 settlers from Gaza only to move 18,000 settlers into the West Bank during the last year. What a double standard this represents! Dutch

"Hamas is mostly a reactionary group. It`s Israel that keeps fanning the fires. " You are right in a certain sense. Israel fannes the fires for the very fact of their existance. Hamss is against Israel's existance. Do you think it is right?

Ezreal: Hamas is mostly a reactionary group. It's Israel that keeps fanning the fires. Hamas has actually, done well except when Israel kills one of its members -- Then it fires a couple of handmade rockets into Sderot to let off some steam. Dutch

Is it not the plan to exchange "disputed" territories for peace? As you say, Israel disengaged from Gaza for their own interest. I don't think it is wrong. And, by doing so, Israel also did a favor to the "Pals". What amazes me is that the "Pals" and some other people are always urging Israel to do something for the "Pals". Has the PA dismantle the terrorist infrastructure? Why should Israel dismantle the outposts? It would leave Israel unprotected. Even having outposts, they have murdered people. You see? The "Pals" are a big problem. Abbas should have problems if they dismantle Hamas. Did you say Hamas cannot win? Didn't it win the local elections this year? And why do the "Pals" oppose that Hamas was banned from running? As for Abbas, does he have nothing to do with Fatah? I don't believe he's a moderate. If I remember the Taliban took power with the support of the people, who saw them as their saviors from the warlords and other gangs. And look at what happens among the "Pals": they are brainwashed even before they go to school. Iran, if I properly remember, is also behind Hizbollah and Islamic fundamentalism around the world. Nazis didn't take the power by force but through elections and the people supported them. Israel is more powerful than the "Pals", that's true. But I don't believe it is good to make things easy for them. And besides I have read there are Russians in Gaza. They say they are training the security forces. This might be true, but it is also true that Abbas received training from the KGB in the Soviet Union, where he committed his thesis denying the Holocaust, and from the KGB he also learned terrorism. Al-Qaeda terrorists have entered Gaza as well. And Iran doesn' sound as if it had good intentions. I don't want to make you scared, but this is the situation.

Kim, According to recent loval elections, Hamas may have a majority of Gazan supporting them, but only a quarter of West Bank support. People want them to run, although not to win. The Pals object to Israel getting involved in their internal affairs.

If Hamas moderates, ie, refrains from participaing in cold-blooded murder of Israelis, it obviously would be a huge benefit to Israel for Hamas members to participate. Do you think: 1) that Hamas members who run for office should renounce "violence" publically? 2) that if Hamas members win public positions that Israel should publlically negotiate with any of these people? (( I don't think so )) 3) any Hamas member who is already an established murderer should run? 4) if any established murderer runs and wins an election, should they now be considered "safe" from a future targeted assassination from Israel? 5) OR if any Hamas member wins an election, and is later discovered in participaing and or authorizing terrorism against Israel, should they be considered "safe" from any Israeli targeted assassinations?

my dear Mustapha K, arabe moosh khor, it is my Iranian money that is financing your precious terrorist organization. You better make a good use with it otherwise its going to bite you in the koon. Millions of Irnian dollars annually go to the Hezbollah, Hamas, IJ and other organization to fight the zionists that frankly do not contribute anything to my well-being in Iran. Those millions of dollars that can be easily used domestically in Iran to fight poverty, health care, education etc is going to entities that cast a dark and negative shadow on Iran. The days of the dirty akhoonds is numbered in Iran and enshaallah so will the endless supply of money to the free loaders. I can not wait to for a free Iran so we can take back our culture of more than 3000 years that we lost to the arabs. FREE PERSIA, FREE IRAN

I like your idea, but I think history proves that it isn;t going to happen. If Hamas didn't use violence, what would they be? Violence is their MO, and since Abbas seems unwilling, or unable, to disarm these militant groups, I suspect they will be running on the platform of obliterating Israel, since they take pride in saying they ran the Jews out of Gaza.

Please present your proof that Lechi wanted to expell the Arabs, if not please stop repeating over and over again the same false charge. Being in favour of greater Israel did not automatically mean being in favour of exile for the Arabs. The ideology of Lechi was foggy at best, it was more about "direct action" as its own virtue than deep philosphical musings. I would note that the founder of the Israeli Communist party was also a Lechi man as was Uri Avnery (noted "peace activist)The Lechi attracted a rather motley ideological crew. Untill the fighting in 47 Lechi satyed totaly away from attacking arabs as they sought to create a Jewsih Arab andti British Imperialist front. Their choice of the British High Commissioner for the ME as a target stationed in Cairo was a direct attempt to send this message to the Arabs, 10000 nationalist Egyptian studenst came to show their support at the hanging of the assasins.Also Lechi did i the end accept the rule of democratic govt with no fuss or problem.Hamas is a pthological fundamentalist cult that spitson the very concept of democrqacy as being morally depraved. There is a major difference there. danite

Forums than on commentary on middle east affairs..Some people are neither Jewish nor Palestinian but have an obsession with Jews that translates into sticking their unwanted noses into Jewish religious affairs in NYC and or Israel...from base Anti-Semitism...

-"Israel, too, for now, seems to have no interest in renewed confrontation with Hamas."- That must be the worst reading of what is going on, that I have ever encountered. Israel is looking for ways to envolve the Hamas in armed confrontation on daily bases and if you call all the Israeli efforts "mistakes" you may fool yourself and even some others. The problem facing Sharon is that he can't be seen as the one instigating it, because Uncle Sam has spoken on the matter and promised Abbas to try his way to integrate Hamas into the politicle sphere and then disarm, or rather "verified decommission of arms beyond use". Do you Mr Harel think for one nano second that Sharon wont try everything in the book to engage the Hamas in armed confrontation? For God's sake that it his plan how to stop the Hamas from participating in upcoming elections. Mostly because that is the only thing he can do, it will probably take an assassination of somebody running for Hamas addressing an audience from a podium in the electorial race, for the Hamas to lose their current cool. One can be sure that that scenario has been discussed in Washington and the 'no-no sign' sent to Sharon's Junta, but Sharon knows no other way and maybe he will take his chances. Washington is on to him and Bush is losing patience with Sharon's unwillingness to heel at command. From the timelines given from Washington is that some things have to be addressed immediatly and others "before the end of 2005". A couple of busy month ahead will show just how tired Washington is becoming and how Sharon values the ties with Washington.

A state requires the monopoly of the legitimate use of force. If there are multiple candidates who each have their own private armies, doesn't it seem that it will not be who has garnered the most votes who will win - rather, he who has garnered the most ammunition? Rather then object on the grounds that Hamas is an organization that uses terror as the basis of exclusion, why not demand that Hamas and all Hamas candidates must: abstain from violence and intimidation of the Palestinian people, refrain from displaying weapons in public places, help maintain public peace. "Electoral politics moderates parties. Parties win "in the middle". They have to moderate. Israel can only gain." 11# Ben Gurion This is contigent upon it not being a polarized legislature within in Proportional representation system. SMP (Single member plurality) rewards moderate parties and punishes fringe parties due to electoral structure. Why would you want to waste good money on artillery to destroy Hamas' terrorist structure when you could use elections to do the same?

jill mcgivering further reported that the police stood by and did nothing while the moslems were being bludgeoned. in ahmedabad in 1969 2500 moslems were killed.there were communal riots in the eighties nad nineties. the bbc also tells us that there are now many moslems widows in gujarat. ravi believe me we simply do not do this stuff. still i have to thank you for taking an interest.

9/5/2002 jill mcgivering bbc. many moslem women were raped in gujarat. again ravi we do not do this stuff here.i look forward to your next bit of advice for israel.

Kim, I brought to your attention in the past that the Pals are not bound by any prior agreement regarding the coming elections. So I don't think it is proper to repeat such a claim. Let me now respond to your new claims. I want to state at the outset that I am no promoter of Hamas, only of Israeli interests. But it is important to recognize that Israeli interests can be advanced even when Hamas is around. 1. Kim, you say that "Israel left Gaza to meet a condition in the road map." This is entirely incorrect. There was no condition in the road map concerning Gaza. Israel withdrew for its own reasons (which were never explained to the public). The road map requires as the initial step that Israel stops settlement activity and remove the "illegal outposts". The PA is supposed to reform its security services and to dismantle or fight terrorism. Neither Israel nor the Pals have done that. Sharon cannot stop settlements now for political reasons and the PA cannot fight Hamas and others because they will be beaten. 2. Nobody should doubt that the Pals "want freedom". This is not "funny." There is little chance that Hamas will gain a majority now to be able to impose the Sharia, after all, Abbas is the President and the Parliament has limited power. But if eventually (in the far future) Palestine becomes a Sharia state, I will consider them miserable, but not something that it is my business to correct. 3. Were the Taliban moderate? No. And they came to power by force, not democracy. Is Iran moderate? Compared to what? They take care mostly of their own issues. Of course, the world is dealing with them now, and this is possible because they ARE the government. Militant groups are not responsible to anybody. Were the Nazis moderated by their election victory? No. They took over the system and changed it. So what about Hamas? The good thing is that Israel is much more powerful than the Pals. Is Hamas wants to behave like the Nazis, it will take much shorter than for the US with the Taliban to kick them out of power. Little risk here.

true enough.but the way you have used the word is quite wrong.what you meant to say is that your statement is no longer valid.that is not the same as calling it an anachronism.mark lincoln is trying to rescue a soul-mate.he will not do your vocabulary any good.

There is Weise (#18), and then there is wiser (#23). Of course, the wisest thing is to look at the content of #11.

"that is not the corret use of anachronistic." - nathan der weise it is within the second meaning of the word which is 'a person or thing that is chronologically out of place." Ben Gurion's title was "Let Hamas Run" while Hamas IS running. Thus the argument that Hamas should be allowed to run is moot because it has been chronologically superseded. English is a slippery and confusing language.

No matter how long it takes, step by step, the Arab will destroy Israel as a jewish state. Those Jews permitted to live will live as dhimmi under the Arab gun. There is no Arab vision of 2 states fifty years from now. You can only fool yourselves into negotiating the how and when it will happen. Or you can remove the murderous threat from proximity (expulsion) despite all the scathing editorials. You all parrot the Arab narrative and point of view, which denies the very existence of the temple itself. What makes you leftists all so blindly suicidal?

According to the article, the ?pals? would not accept elections without Hamas running in them. This means Hamas, such as it is now, is popular among the ?Palestinians?. Why should Hamas change if they win the elections?

"2000 muslims were killed by hindus in gujarat over a few days. .there are 16000 muslims squeezed into camps and living in complete fear." ravi we do not do this stuff here.

physician heal thyself.

that is not the correct use of anachronistic.though perhaps one may guess your meaning.

"Hamas has two conflicting goals; it wants to be part of the government that has to deal with Israel, and also wants to destroy Israel. But how can they do both? Answer: They cannot do both." - Ben Gurion As Israel was declared by David Ben Gurion, the Lohmey Heruth Israel was dedicated to ridding Israel of all Arabs. Then came the cold splash of reality. . . Today, around 20% of all Israelis are Arabs, and the descendants of Lohmey Heruth Israel are the dominant party in Israeli politics, The man who dominated the Lohmey Heruth in 1948 Israel eventually became a Prime Minister of Israel. Once the Goal of Nationhood is accomplished, even the most rabid of terrorists faces the problem of either becoming part of that Nation's political establishment, or seeing their support evaporate. I hope everyone is paying attention to developments between Pakistan and India. Both nation realize that the must stop fighting because they are both nuclear powers. Both nations have made an agreement that they will NOT let acts of terrorism interrupt their peace negotiations. As a result, they are both moving to allow aid and people to flow in Kashmir despite their old dispute, and despite the recent terrorism in India. Pakistan, like every nation foolish enough to support terrorism has discovered that mad dogs should not be fed, because they will not accept the one who feeds them as their master. But at least on the sub-continent, the mad dogs can't stop the progress towards peace. The situation for Israel has improved since Hezbollah decided to become a political party instead of an army. They still have arms, but their emphasis is upon politics. It is not in Israel's interest to have a civil war - which Hamas would win - in Gaza or the West Bank (where the PLO might win). "Jaw, jaw, jaw is better than war, war, war." - Winston Churchil

Perhaps you are right. After all, agreements with the "Pals" are null and void. However, I think it is convenient to remember it. Which agreement is now valid, anyway? Israel left Gaza to meet a condition in the road map. What have the "Pals" done so far? Have they stopped terrorism? No. Do the "pals" have to meet any conditions or it is just Israel? What is funny, on the one hand, is to hear the "Pals" and their supporters claim that they want freedom. I imagine which kind of freedom they will have if Hamas wins the elections: the freedoms of the sharia law. To be part of the government and to want the destruction of Israel are not incompatible. After all, Fatah wants the same. The government of Iran is in power. Does it make it moderate? The taliban were in power in Afganistan. Were they moderate? Excuse me, Ben Gurion, but I believe yours is wishful thinking.

Hamas has been clear about its goal from the get go. Total annhilation of Israel, taking back "all of greater Palestine", murdering Jews. I don't really see what is so complicated aboutt this. If the Pals want Hamas to run their territory, or even their future state, so be it, but get the wall built first.

Oh, the settlements. They are legal according to the Geneva convention and other laws.

It was the "Pals" who made it dead because the doidn't stop terrorism. The road map is based upon the Oslo Accords, anyway. You are right that the road maps should also be declared dead because the "Pals" have met no conditions of it. And because of this I would like that Israel didn't make further steps. Which documents point out Israel non-compliance? The "wall"?

"My dear, you frequently quote from international laws and agreements only when it suits." Yup we do point out the laws and agreements that show that the PA has NEVER fulfilled one obligation. "If the same documents point out Israeli non-compliance or violation then the words are dead, inaplicable or technically wrong." Name one! Israel has fulfilled their obligations, the PA hasn't, basic and even simple enough for left-winger to understand.

My title is acachronistic already. Hamas is running, the US supports it now, and Israel accepts it, if unhappily. Some people, such as Kim #8, claim that Hamas running is contrary to the Oslo agreement which does not allow parties which use "unlawful means", such as terrorism. Oslo contemplated only one election (it took place in January 1996). The Pals were supposed to have their state by May 1999, according to Oslo II. And besides, Oslo is dead now. These elections are independent of any Oslo agreement. Hamas has two conflicting goals; it wants to be part of the government that has to deal with Israel, and also wants to destroy Israel. But how can they do both? Answer: They cannot do both. Therefore they will enter into an identity crisis, as any schizophrenic falls into when reality is opposed to one of its two personalities. Let Hamas break up. The part that will remein in government will become more moderate. Electoral politics moderates parties. Parties win "in the middle". They have to moderate. Israel can only gain.

israel does not tire of proclaming its democratic credentials, so why the stupidity of trying to pick and choose who can fight another peoples elections? all the more so when israel surely realises thats its 'directives'are treated with derision by the palestinian population and are counter productive at best. israel is conducting itself more and more like its erstwhile pals in aparthied s. africa... refusing to face reality.. that is until the hard headed de klerk took the inevitable step. pray for an israeli de klerk, or israel will end up with crumbs

I thought your radical Likud decleared Oslo dead? My dear, you frequently quote from international laws and agreements only when it suits. If the same documents point out Israeli non-compliance or violation then the words are dead, inaplicable or technically wrong. Can't have it both ways. either Oslo and the Road Map are dead or stop settlement activity.

Article:?Israel, relying on a strict interpretation of the road map and Oslo Accords, maintained that a party that is also a terror organization - one that not only refuses to disarm but continues to call (at least part of the time) for the destruction of the Israeli partner - should not be allowed to play in the political game.? This is not Israel?s intepretation but what the PA signed in the Oslo Accords. Oslo Accords. Annex 2 of the Interim Agreement: Article III.-Qualification and Nomination of Candidates 2. Nominations The nomination of any candidates, parties or coalitions will be refused, and such nomination or registration once made will be cancel, if such candidates, parties or coalitions: (1) Commit or advocate racism; or (2) Pursue the implementation of their aims by unlawful or non-democratic means.

"Hear O`Israel learn from your mistakes or you will be doomed to repeat them". Yes Mustapha, we remember Chamberlain and we have already learned from the others' mistakes at our expense : never bow to fanatic ennemies whose only goal consists in destroying us or in "wiping us from the map", according to the latest re-edited version. Hamas' violence will not yield to you more gains than the rioters in France in the pursuit of more social justice. And don't think that your good Arab "brothers", who took so much care of you over the last 60 years, will suddnly refrain from supplying oil to China and the rest of the world because of the Palestinian issue. Business is business. Surely you know that the peaceful solution, which the majority on both sides favours, will require the disarment of the fanatic elements who use terror as a means, mainly Hamas and IJ. Perhaps, no Palestinian leader will ever dare to do so, but this might only further delay and complicate, if not imperil, the conditions for the creation of the state to which you long. The choice is yours. Peace.

The hamas will not be able to continue the fight against Israel. at the moment they have all the support in the world from the poor in the palestinian territories because most of the money they raise goes to educating those people. once a proper agreement is reached between Israel and the PA (with hamas in it's government) the Palestinian people will not support any more violence since in a proper agreement they will be receiving financial aid if not from us then from international orginizations, and will be allowed to oporate a healthy economy in the palestinian territories, without road-blocks and curfews.

They have made every indication that they are indeed willing to consider some diplomatic solution to enable a Palestinian state. But make equally clear that this is a mere staging post. Once the new borders are achieved through diplomatic means, then the fight resumes. So should Israel be encouraged if Hamas makes overtures?... No it should be warned. Dont play with fire!

With the PA absolutely nothing. What does it matter that all of the agreements that the PA and Israel signed forbid terrorist organizations from running for election, oh wait the PA IS a terrorist organization. Israel not only has the right to interfer, but an obligation because that is what is REQUIRED under the agreements. Yes Israel must not allow Hamas to run in an elections.

How short peoples' memories are! How can an organization make an about face in less than a year? The Palestinians don't support Hamas as much as they used to. The only way that Hamas will gain election seats is if they cut down on violence since that seems to be the trend.... for now. The day that Hamas is ready for peace is the day that Israel doesn't have religious/seclar problems.

1.2 Billion Arabs along with their 1.2 billion Chinese allies who need Arab oil to become the worlds top economic power, guarantee Bush his only way out of the 2 Islamic wars he started with Afghanistan and Iraq is by doing the bidding of the Arabs. Israel still has its head in the sand and can't figure it out. Except for Rumsfeld, all of the Neocon hawks of Bushs first administration has been forced from office or resigned for obvious reasons. Yet Sharon, Dan Halutz, whose Air Force could never harm Hizbullah and never harm Hamas, and the General Staff have some lame-brain idea that by provoking the Palestinians a 2nd time, they won't have to give up the West Bank as they were forced to give up Gaza. Hamas & Jihad Islami are glad the IDF kill their STRAWMEN. The Hamas & Jihad Islami top terrorists Israel always claim they kill, are front men, shills, for the real leaders who stay in the background, give orders, while letting the strawmen take all the credit, the glory and the Hellfire missiles. Hizbullah did the same in Lebanon. Read in Haaretz from 1995-2000 all the Hizbullah leaders Israel claimed they killed, yet Hizbullah defeated the South Lebanese Army and drove Israel out of Lebanon. Hear O'Israel learn from your mistakes or you will be doomed to repeat them.

The truth of the matter is that you just can't have a democratic ellection in the Palestinian Territories without the hamas as a fully functional political party. A very large number of palestinians support their ideas and their views (probably more than a third as seen in the previous palestinian ellections). The fact that they have been able to show restraint in face of all the horrible things that they have seen even since the pullout from the Gaza Strip, I believe, is proof that they are willing to go to start a peace process with israel. If they are not allowed to participate in the ellections (and by the way, why should the israeli government decide who gets to participate in another peoples ellections) then the palestinians will have a ONE party system and that is bascily the makings of a future dictatorship. With their non-responses to the assasination of a top hamas activist and the lack of freedom of movement throughout gaza I think that they are trying to show something, not only to the israeli government, but also to the palestinian people