Analysis / Fold up the road map

The right wing is getting hysterical over the election of Peretz. The fact that they have hoodwinked so many of their core supporters for so long and that Peretz clearly exposes their hypocrisy, means that they are already pulling out the big guns and firing. To hear it so far from them, if elected, Peretz will be the end of civilization as we know it. He is a commie thug who is siding with Al Quida. Well, I quess that when you have been stealing from the poor for so long to give to the rich and the settlers, it is kind of an existential threat in a way. The real question for Peretz is whether he can be a wise enough leader to remain principled, and yet unite his natural constituency into a focused and potentially powerful political force. It is possible, but still far from a given. Could be, though, that people have just been fooled one too many mornings and can finally fend off the media manipulation that has come to characterize so much of what passes for Democracy these days.

thank you for listening. lehitraot. ira berkowitz

Mr. Berkowitz, I think that I understand your position. I also understand that we are both trying to find the answer to the same question. Within the bounds of honor, what is best for the people of Israel? B'Shalom, Joel A. Levitt

Ravi I support your views about withdrawal of Israel from West Bank and Jerusalem if you also supports Withdrawal of Indian troops from the Kashmir. In both case local population don't like them. Both India and Israel showing Historical and security justification for not doing so. I think to single out Israel about this is anti-semitism.

sir, we seeem to have had a "disconnect". I never intended to suggest that the vietnamese communist re-education "re-educaton camps" manifested themselves prior to the start of our viet nam experience. i emphatically declare that those dens of horror came into existence following American retirement from the field of battle. I am further saying that we retired because the political will to achieve victory was undermined, at home, by those opposed to war. My point is that those opposed to war were totally convinced of their moral superiority, of their ultimate righteousness. They condemned the USA as being the greatest evil. At the end of the day, when all was said and done, it was the communist totalitarian killers of five million helpless, surrendered people who turned out to be the greatest evil. So, you see, Mr. Levitt, what I wish to convey is that I believe in supporting that which is less flawed. I do not know of any individual or institution, myself included, that is without flaw. I believe that America is decidedly less flawed than those who claim to be victimized by her. I believe that the Western system of market driven capitalism, for whatever it's flaws, is vastly superior to available alternative systems of resource and wealth management. I believe that Israel, is far less flawed than the Arab and Islamic world that refuses even to acknowledge, during the last sixty eight years (start with the Arab rejection of the Peel Commission of 1937) that the Jewish people, yourself included, deserve a tiny piece of earth, where they can live and work and be Jewish. Imagine the chutzpah of these Arabs who declare, that because they invaded. in the 7th century from the Arabian peninsula, and stole not only Israel, but also all of North Africa, and most of the Middle east, and half of Western Europe, that those lands they stole are now rightfully theirs for all eternity? How they get a free pass from a large part of the Western intelligentsia eludes all logic. Sometimes, sir, there is no alternative but to fight. I am very proud of Israel, that she knows how to defend herself. Israel believes that those who won't defend themselves do not deserve freedom. We need not shed tears that we know how to defend ourselves.

Peretz is a loser with his ideas. Haaretz is a loser for supporting him. His ideas are so far left it is unreal to even contemplate the horrors he is going to perpetrate on the Israeli public. Israel went thru Oslo. I don't think they will trust the Palestinians like Peretz wishes. My G-d who wants more killings with no retribution because that's what Peretz is asking the Israelis for. Whoosh. What a loser Labor picked. If Haaretz thinks more people will follow him from the Safardi side I think they will be sadly mistaken.

There are over 100,000 Jews in Germany today. Suffice it to say your logic isn't all that convincing.

is it the beer or the cold? peretz will get nowhere - but of course you know the middle east so well :-) nothing is going to change bm

I think that your experience in Vietnam must have been horrible. I believe that all death is a filthy waste. I would like to say that I greave for everyone cut down untimely, but I have a hard time greaving for terrorists and a harder time greaving for those who make war with other people's lives. I do greave for all those driven to horrible acts by the horror of their own situation. Bearing my part of the responsibility for the evil of our age is not a new experience. I have not been focused enough. I did not work long enough or hard enough. Sometimes I am consoled by the idea that my work in applied physics has helped others, but not often. As to the monster, Pol Pot, reading Cambodian history you might find other causes. The Vietnamese "re-education camps" followed the war. They did not precede the war, and they were no part of our motivation for beginning it. The testimony before the House Foreign Affairs Committee during the Truman administration makes clear our intention to surround China with military bases and invade when the moment was right. Our involvement in the French Indo-Chinese War, was that our concern with the French economy trumped our concern with the lives of those Asian non-caucasions. We both would do everything in our power to prevent ethnic cleansing. Since ethnic cleansing is out, and since Israel has paid a terrible price for attempting to incorporate the territories, the only course open to us is to pursue a negotiated peace.

That is totaly correct, it is the basic view taken by all western govts the difference is in the degree.Its called capitalism with a welfare state. It is the way to go.Regards

know what, mr. levitt? i don't want to spend more time trading insults with you. i can't change you. you certainly aren't going to change me. one thing HAS changed, sir. People like you no longer are allowed to trample all over other people intellectually and ideologically without having your declarations scrutinized and challenged. You MAY succeed in imposing your "just peace" on Israel, just like you did on the Vietnamese and Cambodians. They are the ones who should be rioting in the streets in front of your home and your work place, for the horror and tragedy that you and the other ant-war-types brought upon them and their families. but instead, they started new lives. instead they made something of themselves. as a matter of fact, their dignity and nobility is much like that of the jewish holocaust survivors. all of them focused on a better future instead of holding onto resentment for the past. see what they have achieved, mr. levitt? now, if you really want there to be a peace in the mideast...maybe you ought to expend greater effort appealing to the good instincts of "palestinians" to admit to themselves that they and their arab brethren blew it when they failed to recognize israel....several times, beginning in 1948. yeah, mr. levitt...try getting the palestinians to look to the future, instead of looking with resentment to their own self caused past! have a nice evening mr. levitt.

you are wrong mr. levitt i DO know the score. the score is 5,000,000!!!! 5,000,000 vietnamese and cambodians that you and your fellow travelers in "peace activism" condemned to tortured death. you condemned them to death when you and your morally superior friends handed the communists victory. you enabled emergence of the "re-education camps" of the vietnamese gulag, and the cambodian "killing fields" courtesy of pol pot. now, the peaceniks are, as only they know how, moralizing to israel and the united states. what's the matter....weren't 5,000,000 deaths enough to satiate your desire for innocent blood? never been singled out for responsibility for ourage before? can you take it mr. levitt? i'll bet you had a field day crowing about my lai, mr. levitt. did you find the actions of lieutenant calley and his men, when they were under fire, to be more odious than say....the beheading of daniel pearl?

Luckily, the Armed Forces don't have to figure out what a special person you are, since you have already awarded yourself so many medals. There was no freedom of movement for "those murderers" or any other territory Palestinians. Allowing Arafat to form a government that made it easier for Israel to control the territories was no sacrifice. Allowing the PLO to buy weapons so that they could impose their so-convenient-for-us governance may have been a mistake, but it was no sacrifice. This is particularly true in the light of the overwhelming strength of the IDF. You are correct, I spent the Vietnam War years trying to save your life and the lives of tens of thousands and millions of Americans and Vietnamese from hostilities that were continued so that Presidents Johnson and Nixon could avoid being the first American Presidents to lose a war. You not only don't know the score; you don't even know the name of the game.

Yaakov - you are quite the Historian wannabe. You state: "The Temple Mount/Haram esh Sharif will remain as it has for over 1300 years, under Muslim control and Palestinian sovereignty." Your math is almost right. 1300 years since the first "arab invasion" Read that again. Invasion. There was never Palestinian sovereignty. Never happened in any historic period. Did it occur to you that the invaders defiled a holy Jewish site and claimed it as their own and now in your version of peace you wish to award it to the conquerers in the name of justice. It may be practical, but it is not justice. Yaakov, you are Jewish. You pray to that temple mount. Jerusalem barely appears in the Koran.

This is the second submission of the following material to you at Haaretz. It was prepared for publication in the U.S., but it is particularly relevant to the capitalism vs. socialism arguement going on among your commentators. Free enterprise has so far proven to be the best path leading to the efficient production of useful goods and to increasing society?s wealth provided that: 1. there are capital reserves adequate to technological improvement 2. unencumbered wealth is so widely distributed that markets can guide the evolution of concepts of value, and 3. it is generally perceived that society is treating most of its members fairly. However, free enterprise does not lead to economic equilibrium; instead it leads to the accumulation of the means of production and of wealth in fewer and fewer hands. Thus, it is necessary to make periodic corrections, redistributing wealth so as to restore the conditions needed for free enterprise success. The last American correction succeeded. It started with the rise of Populism and continued through Teddy Roosevelt and the Trust-Busters and the Great Depression. It was not easy to accomplish then, perhaps because America waited too long to begin. It will probably be even more difficult in the future, because it is presently so easy and so rewarding to move wealth abroad. Therefore, we should be continually re-examining two questions. First, is the present the appropriate time to begin a correction? Second, how can it be accomplished in a world with such uniformly good communication but such disparate levels of economic development and consumer satisfaction?

If Israel practised ethnic cleansing - how come there are over a million Arabis in Israel today?

it appears, sir, that you feign coyness. what "sacirifices??" you say. sacrifices, Mr levitt? how about the re insertion in the heart of the disputed lands of arafat and thousands of his murderers-of-jewish-children... er (i suppose you would call them "freedom fighters")? how about the formerly unimpeded freedom of movement granted to those murderers of children, so they could prepare their al aqsa intifada, instead of truly seeking the peace that supposedly they were entrusted to strive for? how about israel allowing the "palestinian police" i mean tanzim, islamic jihadniks, and hamas to receive thirty thousand automatic weapons from holland, that were all turned against jews? but, i know, you have a rationalization prepared to tell me why i am incorrect to assert that israel made sacrifices trying to achieve peace. look, mr. levitt maybe you have been a soldier , but i tend to doubt it. i think you have spent your entire adulthood at ann arbor, specializing in liberal arts, humanities, delusion, and cowardice. i on the other hand, spent my young adulthood as an american soldier in viet nam. i know the score, and i also know that it is unfortunate that unrepentant liberal peace niks have so vastly influenced public discourse in western democracies. unrepentant liberal peqace niks wouldn't fight to save their mothers, sisters, or daughters from being raped and murdered. unrepentant liberal peaceniks are a disgrace, a complete and utter disgrace, and their presence and their lack of intellectual honesty provides ongoing encouragement to our enemies to continue to attempt to extinct all of western civilization.

That right gabe1 let everybody sink or swim, but I dont want you to touch your state medical insurance card,or your old age pension,I want you to pay full market value for your medicines,I dont you to abuse of my tax dollars, I would they go to people who really need that stuff.Be honest gabe1 tear up your commie medicare card.Canada is an excellent place to live in large part because it is a welfare state, go live in the US where half the middle class in living on their credit cards under a reign of finacial terror.No doubt you thought Preston Manning was the man of the hour or how about ralph klein he is more your style, as he threw money on the floor in a drunken rage at a crippled man in a homless shelter when pressed for more govt support, yes that your style of leader isnt it.

The choice is not between 19th century capitalism of maoist collectivisation.It is entirely possible to have a free market economy with a govt that applies itself to dealing with issue of people in a rational and sane way instead of this passive attitude "let the market decide" you would have no doubt called Roosevelts New Deal some form of communism.The rush by the Likud to neo con economics is going to destroy the moral and motivation of its people.Traditional Jewsih culture which has allowed to Jews to survive has always stressed solidarity and sharing, to turn Israel into a brutalised alienated vicious society where all that matters is me me me and screw the rest is an abomination.That is what peretz is talking about, to raise the issue of what kind of society Israel is going to be.Sorry but gated communities, soup kitchens, mass drug abuse, gun violence, homlessness alienated youth, a hard core criminal underclass might your ideal for the future but not mine or many others.To each their own.

I bet you wouldnt say that to my face tough guy! HA HA HA

From #117: "sacrifices for peace". What sacrifices do you have in mind? I don't recall any associated with Oslo 1.

I can see that your very limited and ostrich like views on complex issues that overwhelm you make any further discussion with you and excersise in futility.You dont want to know,so you dont want to know! Good Luck

Therefore, though I might be misinformed-although I don`t think so. "A Light to the Nations? Social Justice in Israel"www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=10&subject=175 Post-Zionism and the Sephardi Question www.meforum.org/article/707

call me a pessimist if you will.. it seems as if this is oslo act 2. i can see it **israel to be prodded by the usa to again (as in oslo 1/ make, "sacrifices for peace" **arab murderers chortling gleefully at the prospect of much jew-killing to be so easily had. **another charade of a diplomatic process in which abass, or dahlan or whoever will demand everything and offer nothing other than lies, about a peaceful future: lies that comfort only deluded pacifists who continue to imagine that pathological unconpromising savages will become refined persons whose actions are controlled by reason and a desire to avoid conflict. **be afraid....be very afraid!!!

"Peres was never anything but a Sharon lite, hiding behind platitudes fit for head lines and quotes, but not for anything closely resembling a fair solution to any problems." This Shimon Peres guy is total opposite of what he has portrayed himself to be in public all these years. I believe he's the mastermind of the war criminals in Israel. Always take what he says and reverse it and you'll have the truth.

I read your post in response to my opinion that you are stuck in the cow pasture with Peretz, as he offers nothing new. You ignored the substance of my comments and proceeded to do p.r. for Peretz, rather than produce a real argument that Peretz had a new voice and ideas that we have never heard from Labor. You sound like Clinton's Carville. Frankly, Peres has much more sophisticated views and experience than Peretz, and it seems to me if the background issue is raised, that most Sephardi Israelis place a greater value of security issues than an ashkenazi "liberal" in Savyon. Who put Begin in office after all? Labor needs younger people who are independent of the old socialist institutions to run for office who understand the reality of the conflict with the Palestinians and the need to move Israel into a market economy. Peretz to me is an old line choice who reflects the past, not the future.

In #79, you ask, "Does Ravi have the right to criticize us?" If Ravi is correct, then his criticism benefits us. If he is wrong, then his criticism can be ignored. Turning attention from the message to the messenger, as you attempt to do, betrays the fear that he is right and that you are unwilling to do anything to improve the situation.

Being in the Economics field (not an economist) I can see that you are borrowing quite liberally from the Communists. Distribution of wealth. Even the last bastion the Chinese do not practice this anymore. I would like you to answer a few questions 1. Who do you classify as poor. A person with a house but no car or a person with a car but no house or a person with neither. 2. Do you distinguish between people that are employable and unemployable. 3. By what percentage would you raise the minimum wage and would that amount move people up to the next level 4. What will happen to inflation and unemployment if you do that.(A good economy creates jobs and any hirings are usually at market and therefore higher than even minimum wage) I am against Unions but why has Peretz not unionized these people. Does he know something that you have missed.

Actually you touched on something I've always been curious about. Is there a politician in Israel that speaks for the "silent majority", a political party? The tax structure, the school system, the environment, things like that, quality of life stuff. It seems like everything you read about is the existential stuff, Hamas, the Shahab misssiles, where to put the fence. Do children learn modern Jewish history, Israeli history? I don't know. The world economy is becoming increasingly globalized, India and China are new factors. I don't really see Ariel Sharon wanting to know what the value of the shekel is first thing in the morning but will Peretz be better, will he be worse? Is he wrapped up in the socialist international, somebody please tell me.

I made aliyah in 2001. I love Palestine. I truly do. I have nothing but positive memories of my time there. Unfortunately many people from the land have memories of destruction and violence. For them the best solution is to leave the land and seek refuge in other lands like many have done. It is no secret that Israelis and Palestinians live all around the world with no intention of returning to their land. From a psychological perspective this is good. For example, I have bad memories of Spain and have no desire to live here. I have a Map of Israel with an Air Base written on it. That is where my airplane is going to be based. I control the X planes from the United States of America. I am going to terrorize the world. I am the second coming and Jesus and this is my destine. God is by my side and the winds are at my back. Everyone who has hurt me in any way, and that is a lot of people, are going to have to bend over backwards with apoloigies and explanations because I will find out everything. The Mossad is very weak now so I am taking over Mossad.

The Israeli Defense Forces run Palestine. Army radio has been broadcasting my therapy sessions with a Jew by the name of Fredric Neal Bush out of New York City. So the Israeli Defense Forces is programmed like a computer to respond to my voice.

The biggest problem with the Israel-Palestine is that the Jews and Arabs are too soft. The Jews are spoiled brats especially the government employees which is the entire country except for the religious Jews who are babies who think they are the chosen people to bring the Messiah tomorrow to rebuild the third or fourth temple, depending on how you look at it. The Palestinians are crazy. All they want to do is kill Jews. That is basically the entire country.

why not make it an enclave and give it to the palestinians.they can still work in israel but they will vote for abu abbas or king abdulla according to preference.

At last an overdue breath of fresh air is sweeping Israeli politics! The Labor Party had lost its identity under the previous leadership becoming a branch of Likud. Under these conditions it was doomed to extinction or at most, lose its relevancy. Now with Amir Peretz at the helm, the chances of a fighting opposition against Likud policies is becoming a reality and with it a viable alternative to a shaky Likud government, riddled with corruption and internal strife. After the disengagement, there has been no movement towards peace negotiations with the Palestinians which could resullt in stagnation of a potentially dangerous situation into further terrorism. Amir Peretz's dovish views is well known and now is the chance for many new opportunities for economic progress and movement towards peace. At last the Labor Party may regain its original identity which was showing signs of being lost to oblivian.

exactly like a much older michael foot.foot had no chance then and peretz has no chance now of becoming prime minister. the only difference is that foot had a weakness for the literary critic hazlitt.

Fagin won't listen, but others will...

It will be nice to see, direct live, Peretz speaking at his mentors memorial. After having promised to follow in his foot steps he can speak out for peace and reconciliation. I suppose Sharon will be a mile away from Rabin's Square plotting how to make the most out of a rather embarrasing situation. We all remember Leah's words about Likud's role in the tradgedy and Bibi should be on his way to Timbuctoo by now. I hope that Amir Peretz know will deploy body guards and that friends within the Israeli security service will post him on present dangers, because the right wing extremist that thought the won, by staging the most succesful assassination in the 20:th century now will have another target to aim at, Amir Peretz. Let's see how far the right will go in demonizing him and let's see how far the extreme right will go in stopping him. Let's see if there is any protection for a man that has taken on were Rabin left off. Assassinations seem to be the answer to all "ills" in Israel.

Dear Josh, May I express my respect and admiration for your style in using a sober, rational and decent vocabulary when answering even vulgar postings on this forum. I thank you, and hope to come across more & more similar Israelis, which will carry me back to the late sixties and early seventies, when there was no land theft and no occupation to corrupt those old-days sweet neighbors and colleagues that I

rather annoying man.does akiva haas deny that israeli lives were saved by the fence?

note the sneering tone in that sentence.not that the fence saves lives but that the public is in love with it. also insinuating that the public cannot think for itself. but who is surprised by arafat's apologist?

I always liked when you posted under that name! Ari B' Israel means something in Arabic. You should look it up and report back to us on here ;) FREE PALESTINE!!!!!!

Lets not get carried away here. 2010 is a long way. I think that my that time Labour will be in the bins of history. Sharon and Peres will be Long gone and not too soon. Beilin and or Peretz have no future as politicians in Israel. Why are we debating a dog that is chasing its tail and never catching it. Labour and the Left are dead ducks and as I said previously lets be kind and give it a proper funeral and move on. Your kind of peace will never happen no matter how much you may wish and pray I just hate sterile debates that go in circles and really have no basis in fact..

What you said about Bush is true but you have noticed no doubt that one who looks like a teddy bear with the hatchet in his coat pocket never to far from Bush.Dick Cheney is a stone cold "killer".Regards danite

Please dont miunderstand me I like Beilin and he has great contributions to make,I think it would be wise for Peretz to reach out to all who can help which he seems to be doing. If he can put together a great team with as you say all kinds of folks that would be the way to go I agree.Not to belabour the point my friend I think having beilin too visible at this time would be a liability you know how sharon will use his precense.Peretz has a great advantage on the social issues he can hit the Likud where it hurts. I would love to see him add to his profile people like Shachak and create a solid defense and security team.Too take an idea from Jabotinsky , in the "breakthrough" period to a new statehood every consideration must be subordinated to the goal at hand , Independance for Israel.I am sure after more water has passed under the bridge and Oslo begins to blow over Beilin can be brought to a more central position. I dont doubt his intelligence and capacities at all Ben Gurion but I think Beilin would do better in peace time.He would an excellent ambasador for Israel.If one day the Labor Party sees him as a leader well thats fine with me.I will have a look at that interview. regards Danite

Being in the Economics field (not an economist) I can see that you are borrowing quite liberally from the Communists. Distribution of wealth. Even the last bastion the Chinese do not practice this anymore. I would like you to answer a few questions 1. Who do you classify as poor. A person with a house but no car or a person with a car but no house or a person with neither. 2. Do you distinguish between people that are employable and unemployable. 3. By what percentage would you raise the minimum wage and would that amount move people up to the next level 4. What will happen to inflation and unemployment if you do that.(A good economy creates jobs and any hirings are usually at market and therefore higher than even minimum wage) I am against Unions but why has Peretz not unionized these people. Does he know something that you have missed.

i do not agree with mr shavit that rich donors have no place in helping culture in israel.let those with funds compete with each other to provide money to museums and universities. i do agree that the museum undersold itself.i also agree that further donations would be difficult to raise now that mr sami ofer has used his name in such an ostentatious manner. still mr shavit has written much better stuff.

Govt is essential to the wealth creation capacities of the nation, who builds the infrastructure? Who pays for the schools to educate people?As Isaid you are living in your american style bubble view of the world were reality stops when it gets beyond me and mine.I ahve answerd your questions but you cannot answer mine? Why have any minimum wage at all then Fagin? Why is scandinavia year after year mentioned as one of the best places on earth to invest in? Cant you answer me that? You are in denial fagin capitalism left unchecked creates wealth for a small minority and vreates living hell for the rest. Thats why the trend has been for decades for govts to get involved with wealth redistribution, which allows for the benefits of capitalism with logical outcomes for all those involved in its success.Emotional? Yes Fagin I couldnt believe I was in the "wealthiest" country in the world when that cleaning lady looked at me with literla tears in her eyes and thanked me from th bottom of her soul. I am not saying that show what a great guy I am, I am saying that to point out the underbelly of the world you seem to need to ignore so badly.

thus tom segev.i could give a prize to those who spotted the reason for my interest in that little sentence which is rich in hidden pleasures. tom segev is clearly surprised that amir peretz is not a thicko.please savour the words "reflective indvidual with a coherent world view" who would have expected that sedorot would bring forth such an individual?says tom segev.mind you coherent world view does not mean that segev is absolutely impressed.just a tad unexpected.

try as i might to be even a little brutal to you in my answers.i cannot. your intellect and attitude is that of a little fledgling lost from its nest. what can you say to a little fledgling? the fledgling it is true does try to scratch with its little wing but how much damage can a fledgling do? you speak the language of advertising copy.very shiny it is true but when all is said and done it is just advertising copy.

we always spin stories around our love interest.ok danite's love interest in the saab car plant is quaint but then that is his business. danite you have made no points worth making. sweden has changed its economic model and is no longer the economy you think it is.so what can you possibly be trying to prove? i have replied your earlier and with luck it may be posted.

While Danite and Fagin both discuss the virtues and failings of raising the minimum wage in Israel, both speak with a European Social Democratic model in mind. Peretz is much more of a radical, old time socialist. Peretz talks of raising the minimum monthly income to a little over 1,000 US dollars, while the average wage in Israel is around $1,600. This is no minimum wage anymore, but a radical redistribution of income. (And if I am not mistaken, Peretz would also insist on giving temporary workers a permanent position.) We have to wait and see if Peretz would implement such a program. He probably would lose the 2006 elections, and his social program will cause him to refuse to join a Sharon government under any conditions (which is a good thing anyhow).

american sos to the idf.amir oren is usually rather good.

for your information, according to the history we jews are nothing more the some tribes arabs that went there own way and later formed Am yisrael. A lot of my friends at work are Arabs and they are not only good people and thrustworth friends and also as rational as me and jewish friends... Perhaps from a western view arabs are not rational, but we israeliens are not more rational then our arabneighbours....

And now I see another David possessing some sense. The failure f socialism? What about capitalism. Capitalism today only succeeds in finding the cheapest cost of labor, launching war to find more markets, enriching a few and making life increasingly difficult for the many. Yet the Israel of Sharon, Netanyahu, and regrettably some of Labor has bought into the notion that enriching capitalists is a noble ambition. Privatization, higher tuition for education, reducing the basket of social valves, all of these attributes seem ot characterize 2005 Israel. Its class differential is higher than that of all of Europe. It is time to return to the values of equality and social justice. Hopefully Peretz can revitalize Labor and make socialism a proud goal, once again.

do you debate with this nonsense?

drivel again.no such proof exists.simply because it is untrue. when governments raise the minimum wage they create unemployment as surely (see sullivan for this cliche)as day follows night.

rather silly.not worth replying such drivel.

sweden changed its views on its economy just like the uk changed its concept. blair smiles a lot but he is a red toothed capitalist and the beloved of the great mrs thatcher.sweden is no longer the social democratic economy it certainly once was.the economy tanked and sweden changed. but they also smile a lot like blair.

i am not interested in your charitible behaviour. if central authorities control the level of wages they would certainly create unemployment.that is an economic fact of life. your emotional post leads us nowhere. when the market-place is left to its own devices the economy grows.when there is growth all are lifted by the tide. there will always be those unable to help themselves.governments should help them directly.governments should also encourage corporations to help those in need. governments should not interfere in the wealth making activities of the nation.

Hello Danite, After 9 years of a Sharon leadership (2010), with only power tactics and no peace process, I wouldn't count Beilin as a sure loser. He is not too popular now, mostly due to Oslo, but then things are already changing. Lately, Olmert shocked Likud by saying something good about Oslo's historical contribution. There will be more. I take it that Beilin will need help. One big help will be Peretz. He will keep the party true to its ideology. Another can be Amnon Shahak, a former Chief of Staff of the IDF and very respected by the people. He aided Beilin in negotiating the Geneva accords. A party has all kinds of characters, including political street fighters and hatchet men. (To bring a terrible example, Dubbya Bush the dummy was elected without qualification and without being a great street fighter. You can get off this point. Beilin is smart.) Regarding Peretz, I suggest you read Gideon Levy's interview with Yossi Beilin in the Week's End section. His future as leader has to be questionable.

i searched your remarks for something that is worth answering but apart from the self-righteous cant i find nothing. ok again has ravi the right to criticise us? the answer is that since the hindus incinerate buses of moslems with alarming regularity the idea of them telling us that we do not respect the palestinians enough when we meet them at check-points is how shall i put it....chutzpa? now if a gentleman from greenland criticised israel i may think it is not realy his business but then he is blameless.not so the hindu incinerators of moslems.

Fagin, because one suuports socialdemocracy doesnt mean one is not willing to be flexible, we are not dogmatic like you are. it is not either or.Of course there are ups and downs fagin but they are far less worse than the ups and downs of your republican style chimeras.Why does scandinavia year after year rate to be one of the best places for buisness in the world? Have yur heard of value added?The population is highly educated, the state sponsored health system relieves employers of a heavy insurance burden,infrastructure are first rate STRIKES are very few as buisness labor and govt work things out a rational way,and the workers are amoungst the most productive in the world. Sweeden is the place where workers at the Saab plant decidewith managment the hours both will work during the coming week.If less than 40 then they get paid the hours they work, if more than 40 they do the hours WITH NO OVERTIME this helps the company stay competitve and it is a model reapeted elsehwere.I guess that is all to innovative and thinking out of the box for you isnt it fagin?

And if the minimum wage was lowered toBangladeshi levels there would be full employement in one hour its true.Your views on the Scandavain econimies are rather simplisitc to say the least, failures? Tell me Fagin how does Israelwhich has the worst extremes between incomes of all western countries benefit from low wages? What do you call successful economy?Where the balnce sheets look good and everybody is croaking?You are very American and rather limited in your views,you live in your bubble not really carring what happens to the slaves who wash your sheets.Great America where the cleaning lady of my hotel room cried, yes literaly cried when I gave her a 20$ tip. I thought I was in the thrid world,its the only other place I have seen that.Economics and society are more than just more cars and toys fagin it is about meeting human needs ,it is a proven fact raising the minimum wage is the ony way to lift most wage earners out of poverty.I suggest you do alittle reading.

Sharon's dream of having Peres control the Labor for another year, for him, is dead. Now instead Labor has become a problem and that problem is asking for early elections or else they will force them on him. So how early would Sharon like this election? He is looking good in the polls, the same polls that gave Peres a 28% lead the night before the Labor elections(ha ha ha ha ) so polls may not be the best indicator in Israel. They seem to be highly politicalized depending on who's produce them. So will Sharon need time to explain to the unemployed, single mothers, pensioners, poor in general, new immigrants etc , that he really is their best choice? Will he need time to stop the bloodletting of the Likud voters of oriental origions? Will he need time or will he go for as early elections as possible, banking on that Peretz will be rather "unknown" to the electorat as a party leader and untried as a politician in power? Well that sounds good, fast early elections, but for the fact that Sharon doesn't have a party that supports him. He will have to create one and that will take some time, time that Peretz will use wisely(darn). Attempts to buy off Peretz have failed already and reality sets in, "he isn't anything like Shimon". A 'major breakthrough', that's what Amir Peretz means in Hebrew and at last there is a man that understands that sitting in Sharon's lap, is sitting in Sharon's lap and NOT "working to moderate from the inside", well isn't that a 'major breakthrough' then what is? The first of May would be a good day for Labor to re-establish it's roots with the electorate. 'We are the Labor party and we are back. Sorry about that detour'. Peretz is all for a market economy, but not for a slave market. Social justice and a safety net for the very poor is basic. Mandatory pensions and a minimum wage that allows one to actually live on, will cost less than the bloody occupation. Suddenly there's a choice 'Blood or Peace'.

ravi, give us a brake, go first to make your country to at least, fifth world and only after that you can advise the first world country as Israel what to do. Please, solve your much heavier problems first.

Surely this is overstepping the mark. I refer to the accusation of "ethnic cleansing" Or is the "Successful Failure" immune from complying. BTW did you guys catch the BRILLIANT comment on "Eretz NeHederet" last night on Al Jezeera's fruitless search for an English mouthpiece..... Meanwhile they will continue to use....Ha'Aretz Laffff?? I thought I would pee in my pants!! THE TRUTH HURTS.............YES?

Ther is a very thin and fine line between naivity, stupidity and blind dislike of Jews. So Peretz won against Peres by 42 per cent vs 40 percent margin. Yet both Franzen (lets call him Franzi to reflect the size of his gray matter between his ears) So Amir Peretz , as PM will invite, Abbas to his office and negotitae. He will get as far as Rabin, Ehud Barak, Natanyahu and Sharon. No sooner that Amir will start the negotiation on Jerusalem will Mahmoud Abbas or however disposes of him from among the Palestinian political elites and terror groups will ask for: 1) to raise the falg of PA over Jerusalem . Abbas stated that already yesterday during ceremonies marking Arafats deads anniversary And Amir will tell him (them) take a hike body. Abas will live , start whinning and just watch from his seat on a fence , How his terrorist copatriot start blowing themself up at crossings bbetween gaz and Israel and the crossings at the completed security fence. 2 Assume for a moment that Amir Paretz agrees in principal to move the security fence to the last centimiter on the Green Line. Than Mahmoud Abbas or whovere is on the top seat at PA will sya: and now we want the scred right of return to be implemented immediately. Amir will tell him/them Take A Hike Bodies. We are not committing suicide. Then the PA and their "foot soldiers" will start again blowing themself up at crossings in the Gaza Fence and West Bank security fence. If Franzi or Yankele Sulivan can't see it now they will have to do some argumental gymnastics then to explain the hallucinations of Palestinina Leadership. To Franzi a word of advise: Start building a security fence around Sweden and Stokholm in Particular. Swedish security organizations just issued a warning that islamic extremists are planning terror attack in Sweden. One may ask why would islamofascists want tot attack Sweden. BECAUSE SWEDEN IS CRISTIAN AND HENCE INFIDEL. NOTHING TO DO WITH ISRAEL OR JEWS, AND BECAUSE IT IS AN EASY UNPROTECTED TARGET (There are very few Jews in Sweden since for centuries Swedish Kings barred Jews from settling there., in true spirit of Lutheran Faith and Luthers antiemitism which exceeded even the Vaticans hatred against Jews. There is a fine line between naivity and stupidity. Franzi nad Sullivan will discover it, albait slowly and too late

It's refreshing to hear some new ideas instead of the stale rhetoric of the ultra-right. Instead of running into a wall, there could be a light at the end of the tunnel.

Hi Fagin There is an assumption in your comments that really needs challenging. That is to say, Ravi - dalit of otherwise - is not concerned about the situation of marginalised and oppressed people in his own society. How do you know this? Is it not simply the result of a projection on your part? Because, evidently, you care nothing for the oppression of the Palestinians you assume that others are of a similar outlook. Furthermore, there is a really dangerous argument underlying your attempt to discredit Ravi. As I read it, you are saying that people who live in countries where people are oppressed have no right to take an interest in the situation of people elsewhere. One implication of that argument is that Americans - who live in a society with immense social problems of poverty, discrimination and marginalisation - should take no interest in Israel. And where would that leave us??? I realise and appreciate your sensitivity when your country is criticised by 'outsiders' but I would really encourage you to develop a more intelligent line of argument. And using little phrases such as 'risible remarks' really is no substitute for reasoned discussion. cheers Jason

the whole country is a sink-hole like the centre of new orleans. why is israel trying talk to that dreadful man musharraf? a pakistani general told a british journalist that both india and pakistan should use nuclear weapons on each other so they can "start again" and build new countries.something like pol pot but this time with atomic bombs.

i believe frazni has the perfect right to continue to make a fool of himself. his whole life is spent writing to umpteen forums and apparently he has a desire to show everybody how sill he is. please do not interupt your enemy when he is making mistakes be safe in the knowledge he has never ever been right about anything anytime ever this is the same guy that wanted to kiss yassir arafat - this should help put every thing into perspective for you bm

i despair.one would not know where to begin. you think socialism is a vibrant economic model? you think the mere mention of sweden is the answer? sweden is no longer the socialism nirvana its groupies imagine.they have made numerous changes.the former swedish model no longer exists.you are way behind.

what can ben-gurion mean by that? the obvious answer(if i understand ben-gurion correctly) is to purchase a really big rug.but even that may not do the trick.

i have never heard anything so preposterous.

fine ravi but how long will it take india to get rid of its disgusting caste system? when will the 1000 million dalits stop being raped killed and humiliated?

josh goldman?ravi has just told you that he is not a dalit.he was so insulted that he found it necessary to leave his email address to prove his credentials.i think a singh surname means that he may be a sikh.though that is not true in all cases. ravi i do not care if you are a dalit or not.you are not in india.all are treated similarly. my case still stands.india has a 1000 million people it mistreats.when you put your own house in order then tell us how to live our lives. physician heal thyself.

until a few years ago scandanavia was indeed a social democratic economy.or the 'third way' bilge.it did not work.growth collapsed and scandanavia changed its ways.it is not the full blooded capitalism that i would support but it is definitey not the 'third way' a simple course in economics would explain to you that raising the minimum wage is the best way to create unemployment.if you do not believe me then i recommend you go to your nearest university for a quick course in the facts of economic life. 40% of israelis are on low wages.well-wishers of the jewish state would certainly be unhappy to hear this. however you cannot wish away the facts of life. israel will grow and thrive(G-D willing)when the whole economy grows.there is no simple way. raising the minimum wage is a witch doctor prescription.

as far as ravi is concerned the old line of 'physician heal thyself' is still serviceable.lecturing israel on its treatment of the moslem population while india incinerates moslems by the bus-load is what? ....swinish hypocrisy? if as you speculate ravi is a dalit then he has his work cut out for him at home.if he is not then he will not thank you for what he would percieve as an insulting remark. the palestinians in the west bank have a far higher standard of living then the people of india.so rooting for them while the dalits undergo unspeakable treatment is quaint. the dalits are treated horribly by the hindus.i cannot compare their situation with any other in the world.perhaps the exception being the conflicts in africa. the dalits suffer daily humiliations that are sustained and persistent.your emails remark is risible.

From Achad Haam to Weitzman our leaders looked forward to sharing the land with the Arabs and to the development of Jewish freedom and civilization in peace. Chauvinistic Arabs and Jews, hungry to expand their control of more and more land, have so far made this impossible. The policies of the proponents of Greater Israel have brought us death, poverty, failing educational institutions and pollution and have turned the international image of Jews from a 'light unto the nations' into that of an ordinary national oppressor. Mr. Sharon, hitherto an open apostle of Greater Israel, is now energetically pursuing these failed policies, though somewhat covertly. While he talks peace, Sharon continues to establish and enlarge settlements, to subvert the welfare of Gaza, and to deny Abbas the support he needs to be able to control the Palestinian terrorists. To our shame, most Israeli political parties have been Sharon's accomplices. The election of Mr. Peretz, his plan to treat all Jewish (and, perhaps, Arab) Israelis equally, his intention to remove labor from the coalition government and to make peace his first priority, at last, suggests that Israel may return to pursuing the Zionist dream.

I support your comments! I would like Canada (where I live) to move more in that direction( we are 50% of the way there), so far we have held off our version of the your republicans thank G-d. I think the social democratic way made Israel great and in its updated ,modern and more innovative form would be a great way for Israel to go! Glad to see another Peretz and Labor supporter here.Lucidity is in such short supply isnt it? Regards Danite

Shalom from Tel-Aviv, don't be surprized by the poll,every new leader(?) the polls show them to get more votes, but wait until he or she starts to talk more and more of what they want and stand for,the polls come back to show a decline. If in Feb. the elections are held, Pertz,will get about the same mandates as Peres would have gotten. I think Peres,should go and enjoy his pension and retire. I am retired and I loved my work, Dairy farm,but retirement is much better. Shimon retire,it will give you and us a better life.

Seems like a lot of self-styled pundits here are making reference to the failure of socialism. Is that so??? Let's see now -- where is there a nicer quality of life: in the Scandinavian countries, with mixed socialist economies, universal health care, and almost no poverty or the US and Israel -- lands of crony capitalism, rising poverty rates, and shrinking access to health care? If only we could move Sweden closer to the equator and break them of that annoying habit of using Swedish to communicate with each other, I'd move there in a heartbeat.

I think it unlikely he will win the next election too, but I bet he wont be voted out. For whom? In a few months nobody will remeber the names of the other ones ,Peretz I have the feeling will see his Star burn brightly, this is more than just a fluke. Look atthe new polls I know it is early etc but it is quite a booster, he has drawn alot of attention , if Peres would have won I would have yawned.Danite

I dont beleive Beilin would ever be elected leader of Labor, only someone with the "street credintals" like Peretz can talk peace and not be open to the Yefeh Nefesh charge which carries alot of destructive power.If you mean the act of bringing back Beilin and we can "hide him in a carpet" for a while okay with me.I am glad to see you are pleased with the result, it really could be very good news, at last a fresh start a new spirit,new energy.Peretz has the personal courage not to flinch when he confornts his enemies, all those years in the tough political battles, coming up through the ranks from a foot soldier to General I am sure has prepared himfor the" street fighting" ahead.And I think its totaly great that a Morrocan Jew from the development towns has risen this way and in the way he has, it is very important in many ways. When he went to Rabins grave and kissed it and swore an oath on it, he has is the kind of values I like in a person,and I know he meant it, Easterners mean that kind of thing. Its an unexpected breath of fresh air isnt it? I just hope that the other Labor leaders will shut up and make a common front.Do you think Peres would split form Labor to form a party with Sharon?Would hedo that to his party? He is not that bad is he? Regards Ben Gurion Danite

I have never met anybody who does not read a post more deeply than you. Its a thing of wonder to behold.

narrow minded, tunnel visioned, mental pygamies afflict all societies, and israel and india are no exception.its not necessarily a lack of intelligence, as much as a lack of objectivity and pragmatism,which sustains the fagins of india,israel or the republic of xyz for that matter. as examplified by the germany of today, which has convincingly jettisoned its nazi past, and the de klerk/mandela engineered change of heart in s. africa, change is possible and inevitable. its up to the "good guys" to drive the process and make it painless, and bloodless

Change is good!. The thought that Peres would have won the Labor chairmanship makes one puke. The old guard of the defense establishment retirees has been put on notice that the tired old formulae belong in the dust bin. The same can be said of Sharon and his cronies in the fascist party- people are sick of the old shenanigans centered on the concept of living on the sword . The Weinsteins of Toronto who ototo are migrating to Israel just don't get it. Peretz got it in spades and his heart and mind are in the right place. He has nothing to talk to Bush about. That fella doesn't get it either.

Your mentor seems to agree with my assessment not that I consider this to be any great accomplishment as any simpleton can discern that without much thinking. What is interesting that as usual BG takes the negative position being the negative person that he is. Beilin never was and never will amount to anything politically. Would suggest that he retire to Switzerland and teach at one of his benefactors facilities. Treachery 101 seems a fitting subject.

Another economic goobly gook strikes. Ma cherie the Communist economic dogma has long been abandoned even by the last holdouts the Chinese.

The election of another wanna be is no reason for all that blood rushing to your head. Peretz will go the way of Mitzna, Barak and Ben Eliezer. The labour party eats its leaders for breakfast and Peretz is an outsider. Your gratitous throwing in of Ariel to be abandoned shows your lack of any reason. No one is parting with anything so chill out Ma Cherie and take a few steps back. I am prepared to wager that Peretz will never become PM and it will take Labour another 10-15 years to even come close to their glory years if at all if they continue electing off the wall leaders. Labour is a spent party and may have some spurts but for all intensive purposes it is dead. Be considerate and put it out of its misery Peretz or not.A shallow one trick pony does not last long.

Hi Danite, My posts have been censored heavily yesterday and this morning (where none survived!). My answer to you lost out to the censor's eraser. Peretz is a great new hope. He is a real man of labor and will energize the Labor party which lost the essense of its ideology. Would Peretz become PM now? Very unlikely. He may not even survive as Labor chief after the coming elections because he has dictatorial tendencies in his own right and his colleagues may use this against him. Within 14 months after an election defeat, Labor is required to run a new race for Leader. The old one may get reelected, but can also be replaced. I would actually like to see Beilin return to Labor and be eligible to run for leader. If this happens, Beilin is smart enough to keep Peretz as a major presence, although not as party leader. For all this to happen so that the discredited Generals do not win in a counterattack, Beilin should be returned to Labor NOW. There simply is no other time. Hide him under the rug if necessary (which I don't believe it is), but bring him back now. Regards, BG

I agree that Peretz is making the Likud sweat bullets at the thought of him showing up their heartland, what are they going to say to him"tachzor le ramat aviv ya maniac"? I dont think so. I dont know if you saw my comments to you yesterday about what I think would be a more politic time to introduce Beilin to the public(after these elections so as not to give the Likud easy targets they will use beilin to make Peretz look yafeh nefesh) but they could eventually make a good team, very powerful actually.I have had my spirits uplifted by this lovely and unexpected victory I was expecting more years of tedious and bloody gridlock, Peretz will shake the tree. Who knows Ben Gurion , according the recent polls the Labor party with him at the head looks at least alive again. Regards as usual Danite

Lenin, Mao, Kibbutz and Peretz mmmm Mussolini Petain,sweatshops Sharon? Get the point??? Very sloppy. Peretz is not new? Peretz has as his central focu issues that have swept under the carpet for much too long, he wants to put a break on the crazy and antisocial attempt by the Likud to live the neo con republican dream in Israel. Those republican policies are ravaging israel like they are the US. Israels strength was its solidarity. It has nothing to do with Mao Yoram, it is called social democracy, you know the theory that has made europe the most propsperous place and innvative place on earth. How you think grinding more and more Israelis into the dust over Areil is good policy I dont know.Also he wants to cut the bullshit and get down to buisness with Abbas and get Israel out ofthis pathetic mess he right has been foisting on israel for decades. Israel needs change big time, even if he doesnt win, so what he will froce change by his very presence. Peretz is a great success story and will talk for the Israel being ignored by those who think like you.

Why do you continually act like you are morally opposed to war crimes. We know you have no objection to war crimes. You idiolize Arafat and he was also a war criminal, so cut out the sanctimony; it's not fooling anybody.

Sounds like he knows what he wants. No more unilateral withdrawals, no more excuses, this guy seems ready and willing! FREE PALESTINE!!!!!!!

The Peretz positions with respect to peace seem similar to the Geneva Accords of Beilin/Abed Rabbo. The one difference seems to be that Peretz speaks about changing the route of the "wall" while Geneva was negotiated before the "wall". The "wall" is a good measure for security. For all we know, Peretz may have a wall on Geneva's borders. I point this out in order to encourage Peretz and Beilin to cooperate and sell a Geneva-like plan to the Israeli public. Indeed, the sale will now be much more successful than before. In recent times Yossi Beilin is used to go on weekly trips to various Israeli towns and explain Geneva to local leaders. The response is normally good, even in development towns the population of which is mostly Sephardi. Imagine how more convincing a Peretz sale would be to an Israeli sector which constitutes more than half the population. Peretz and Beilin can become very effective partners. I anticipate that by 2010, the time of the following Israeli elections, Israelis will be tired of Sharon's non-diplomatic and power-oriented policies which gained little so far and will yield even less in the future. Peretz and Beilin are young and can develop a good future together.

Was the title of my post "why Peretz is good for the Jews" Jewish racist chauvinism? or did you just loose another of my posts? I see others have 20 posts up no problem,spewing all kinds of borderline racism, and they never get lost, why must I always struggle with you??? Zeh margiz leallah kfar.Toda Danite

Islamic teachings on the apocalypse are exerting increasing influence on the political thought of muslims , particularly among Palistinians and Hamas terrorists . That is why it is important to know what they are being tought .( Their teachings are contrary to the Bible G-D's WORD of TRUTH ) ' All Moslims are obliged to take part in the last battle , the 'Holy War' ( Jihad ) , so that they can defeat the Jews . Although Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Koran , according to the ' HADITH LEGENDS ' , regarded as almost equal to the Koran , the last jihad will take place in Jerusalem . At the end of the battle the Kaaba stone will be magically transferred from Mecca to Jerusalem " ' Then Jesus , who is called Issa in the Koran , will appear with a spear in his hand and defeat the al-Dajjal in Damascus . Jesus ( Issa ) will then kill all the " pigs " ( and islamic reference to the jewish people ) , execute Christians and destroy all crosses , and declare Islam the only true religion . Finally , he will convert all non-muslims to Islam . Allah will destroy all those who resist . After these events , Jesus ( Issa ) will die and be buried next to Muhammed . " These Koranic teachings and hadith legends , which more and more Moslims are coming to believe in , explain why Jreusalem is indispensible for them , and why they are even prepared to die for it as suicide bombers , It is a pity that so many Jews and Christians don't take this threat seriously because ultimately the holy war is directed not only against Jews and Jerusalem but against all non-Moslems . The islamic purpose of an islamic pa state is to make the final battle easier for them !!! Where is WISDOM in acceeding to the demands of islam and the world ( blinded by a strong delusion )using oil as a manipulating lever ???

I follow your points all leading to a final peace agreement. We will have peace for 3~4 months...... and then the other moslem countries start to influence the Palistinians to go for more because always remember that as far as the imams think all of " Palestine" is moslem land. What do the Israelis do then ????

Danite... since when is Peretz a reform candidate or a real change? What fresh ideas does he bring to the negotiating table other than the standard Labor "land for peace" garbage we have already heard for years? The truth is there are many years ahead of conflict management with the Palestinians, I believe Barak once said there will be no peace until all of the 1948 generation are gone. What questions have been raised about the Histadrut and Peretz's leadership? Did you support Lenin and Mao too? Is Israel in the 21st century? Labor isn't. Perhaps it is Peretz's mustache that appeals to you, but you are stuck in the cow field with Peretz Danite, if you think Labor has a shot at winning, until it is shook up at the top in a major way.

Hi Meir, If, as a Jew, you yearn for the return to Zion, how come your home city is listed as 'Toronto'. For a lot us already living here 'return' doesn't look that great. Worth waiting 2,000 years for? I'm not convinced. But, hey, come here and try it for yourself!

The Labour party is not a Jewish Party. The largest bloc in the central committee for labour is made up of Arabs. The labour party will try to hide the facts and distort or use many public relation firms to be viewed as kosher. Do not fall for the trap. After 2 thousand years, the jewish people yearned for the return to Zion. Now we have Zion, and no public relation gimick should change the truth. All Arabs that support the over throw of the Jewish State must not have it easy in Israel. Demographic threats must be dealt with. All concessions to the Arabs only lead to more terror in Israel. Peretz is for oslo and more. Let him be clear and listen to his full message, before being caught up in the game.

The Likud is frightened of Peretz because Peretz has their number from way back. he is their total nightmare he is what they claim they are "men of the people".Peretz will make the connection for all to see between the lack of a two state solution and the groing misery in Israel. Watch closely that smile on your face wont last very long.

Raising the minumum wage is nonsense??? Have you ever worked for the minimum wage or even tried to raise a familly it?Your neo con ideas are last thing Israel or any other country in the world need. If you wish to continue to ravage the US (your country?) with that gobblygook go ahead , but the fact is 40% of Israeli wage earners are not even makingthe minimum wage. Social democracy is capitalism with a brain, tell me Fagin before you pick pocket the poor , why is scandinavia chosen consitently every year as the best place to invest for buisness in the world? Why are there economies amoungst the best? althoug according to your stunted theories they shouldnt be.Your 'American way" is not even good for america let alone the rest of the world and G-d forbid in Israel or Canada (where I live) for that matter.

The sooner Israel moves to create a palestinian state in a logical and rational way the better. Enough time and lives and money has been lost on this pointless project to try to foist some obviously impossible solution on the Palestinians.It is high time that Ariel be put onthe scale with other priorities and choices made.This blind and shut down myopia the right has over places that should have never been buildt in the first place is really anti social, and shows a total disregard for anything but the satisfaction of their hatreds and fantasies no matter what the price. At last Labor and Israel has a leader ready to present a clear choice to the country and force clarity in the constant grey zone the Likud likes to hide its aganda behind. Go Peretz GO!!! Danite

Really Fagin, this kind of rant against Ravi for daring to criticise Israel does you little credit. As a fellow Jew and Israeli I have to say I endorse his views and those of Yaakov Sullivan. In what way will you try and discredit me - the old 'self-hating Jew' line? Save yourself the bother of typing that one. By the way, why do you assume that Ravi isn't himself from the lower castes? Did he tell you otherwise or do you assume that all lower castes are incapable of writing emails? I have some dalit friends in Nepal and we communicate regularly by e.mail. So, is this just your prejudice or do you know something we don't?

I imagine there is much laughter in the offices of PM Sharon with Labor's selection of Peretz, as the old wine is simply poured into the new bottle. Is it this year's new and improved version of Mitzna? One longs for the insufferable, but more astute Palestinian hand, Ehud Barak. What about the market economy? Is Peretz's plans for ecnomic growth to form kibbutzim? Shall we invigorate the Histadrut? Labor will be successful again when it has its finger on the pulse of Israelis and starts offering candidates in their 30s, not the same old-same old ideologues.

HI Bill A couple of points. I think that associating the Israeli Labour Party in its current form with socialism is inaccurate. Secondly, the reason why so many mizrachim support Likud probably has less to do with the attitude towards Likud's Palestinians than it does with the decades of discrimination suffered under the rule of the Ashkenazi elite. Rightly or wrongly they have seen Likud as a challenge to the European elitism and racism of Labour. It is this kind of internal complexity within Israeli society that is so often ignored. Not everything we do here is determined by the situation vis-a-vis the Palestinians (believe it or not!).cheers Josh

So there is trouble in India, does that mean Ravi should be silenced? Is that the "Right" way, Fagin?

Let's hope now that Netanyahu wins the party leadership for Likud, and Sharon splits and forms his own party... This will weaken the Israeli Right and open the door to peace...

it also seems that they are embracing other religions in their bid to escape their oppressors. ravi if they are 75% of thepopulation that makes the untouchables about one billion people.that is a lot of people for you guys to oppress rape and murder.you also hold them in bonded labour. the reason? they are darker then the average indian.absolutely true.the caste system as ravi will tell us is based on skin colour.the darker you are the worse off.

Yaakov - I don't agree with everything you say, however I respect your opinions - which are generally well thought out. You correctly view many of the hawks and Jerusalem posts-ers for what they are, but you kind of paint all Pals as innocent victims and I think they vary as much as jews do... and which factions ultimately controls their policies (and therfore the real "partners") is also an issue...food for thought.

Ravi: there are many inside Israel who are advocating for peace and negotiations with the palestinians and who do oppose the expansionism and land grabbing of the Israeli government. Amira Hass and Godeon Levi are just two journalists who bring the reality to the readers of this paper. But you are right, the fagins are not only here on this website but there are worse on the other Englsih newspaper, the Jerusalem Post. This crowd is arrogant and ready to defend every action of Israel. Excuse, denials and distortions combined with character assasination are their tools. You see that clearly from fagin's snide retort to you. Personal attacks are their first and foremost tool. Readers can see through their propaganda.

I am really surprized, that the Labor elected such person, as Amir Peretz: he is unfit to be a Histadruth leader, not just PM of Israel. And the Labor preferred this man, who was suspected for corruption, to Shimon Peres, a serious politician with unpeccable reputation. Amir Peretz is indeed a new Barak, but worse modification. I am even more surprized, that the polls show Amir Peretz would win more votes, than Shimon Peres. I don't understand how the left wing voters can be caught into the same trap once again, after Barak's failure. And what I really cannot understand is how such serious journalist as Akiva Eldar (even though I do not agree with him on most of issues) can write with such sympathy about Amir Peretz.

as sullivan would have it.peas in a pod. and no ravi sullivan is not jewish.he is from ireland and like you he has it in for us. his untouchables are the protestants.

The hope is that the election of Peretz will lead not only to a legitimate peace with the Palestinians, but also a return to the more egalitarian impulses of an earlier Israeli society. Perhaps their will now be an Israeli leader who can wage war not only against terrorism but also the privatizers amd rapacious capitalism that has been spawned in Israel over the past twenty years. The trickle down economic policies of Israel have only served to pauperize large numbers of people and enrich a few. All of the most negative attributes of american capitalism have been blindly emulated by Israel and hopefully Peretz will reverse this trend.

ravi i note the prolific fagin.i have asked you many times to tell us more about your underclass the untouchables but you are mysteriously quiet.they are raped beaten and whipped by the hindus and they need your help. ravi there are murders and thuggish behaviour enough in india without you peeking into the middle east. the poorest palestinian lives better then the average indian.absolutely true. thuggery incidentaly is an indian word.

I had a strange feeling of "deja vu" when I opened the newspaper this morning. My life turned back into my childhood. I was seeing a young Stalin's photo! Although Stalin was already an old man in those days, I was a first grade pupil when he died. The media always published an youthful photo of Our Father the Great Leader. I just hope that Peretz's political agenda will not look like the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and our young generation will not experience the "serenity" of the Gulags, and that history will not repeat itself.

this as ravi will volunteer to tell us is a crime of epidemic proportions in india. the poor women is accused of not bringing enough dowry.the family is blackmailed into bringing more gifts and finally they jump on her and burn her.they call it a kitchen acident. recently a women survived long enough to convict her in-laws. the perpetrators are usually middle class. ravi has his hands full in india but he heaps abuse on us.

thats it ravi killed three moslems because they were accused of harming a cow.hindu perpetrators.near the town of lucknow. a little over the top eh ravi.we do not do this stuff here ravi.perhaps your talents are needed in lucknow?

its american jews like you , i presume youre one, who can bring the sharon crowd to their senses.going by the majority of comments in this forum , i did not hold much hope in the wisdom of israel and its supporters as a whole, represented by the prolific fagins and the like.there is hope.good sense will prevail

No, pace that is not what Peretz is for. He is for peace. West Bank goes to the Palestinians as their country. The racist fanatics who live in the casbah of Hebron will need to be resettled inside Israel. They are a security threat, and must be relocated. Jerusalem shall become a shared, open city, a capital of two states, Israel and Palestine. The Temple Mount/Haram esh Sharif will remain as it has for over 1300 years, under Muslim control and Palestinian sovereignty. The Kotel will be under Israeli soveriegnty. Israel shall pay compensation to Palestinian refugees and admit and apologise for her role in carrying out the policy of ethnic cleansing. That is the program for peace. May Peretz bring us closer to that day!

No new ideas - give 2/3 of your country to the enemy ... BRILLIANT ... I think my 2 year old neice could do a better job. Oh yeh, lets destroy the Jewish Holy sites (Hebron), lets Destroy our capitol (Jerusalem), and lets let 2-3 million arabs into Israel to insure its destruction ...... With friends like this - who needs enemies ?

After I read your article,it seems,you are just as bad with your racist remarks of Ashkenazi,as you acusse the Ashkenazi of being racist. Or is it only Ashkenazi Jews can be racist? Hum, remember when you point a finger at someone, you have 3 fingers pointing back at yourself.

i think saying that he would start with the final status talk with MR Abbas as soon as he wins the PM chair is a good thing and the israelis will elect him . they are running out of time . anything outside the 1967 lines is a waist of time. facts on the ground means nothing ,it was a political games and israelis should start holding their politicians responsible for that . it is not the palestinians fault after all ,they are at home .

Dear Johanes, There were a lot of assumptions in your mini-article but the one that really stood out was your claim that as a "Jewish Arab" Peretz probably has no hate towards "Muslim Arabs". On what basis are you making this claim? The truth is that the majority of Mazrachim in Israel have traditionally voted to the right of political spectrum and have not been shy about showing their disdain for Arabs. Your whole Ashkenazi/Mezrachi divide seems rather superficial.

he is alleged to have told peretz that the fact that he had no military career leaves him out of the reckoning as leader of the labour party.what a silly man. the problem with peretz is much simpler.he has no idea that the world has moved on.socialism has failed and there can be no going back.

shimon you should have won.you are the better man.and who can claim to have served the state as well? they know not what they do. the answer to those who voted against you is your bright and magnificent career.

he will never become prime minister.but if he does then it will be "never glad confident morning again."

the comparison is obvious.the two britons were also elected leaders of the labour party. i remember thinking michael foot was a buffoon and so he proved to be.neil kinnock was a better leader but again he ended up way amir peretz will. we hear the same nonsense."lift up the minimum wage." the result will be higher unemployment.and as yaacov sullivan would have it as "day follows night." or some other awful sullivan cliche.

that daniel ben-simon feels elated by the election of a fellow moroccan is understandable.but his adulation is over the top. if peretz does push the minimum wage higher the result will be higher unemployment.no question.

if amira haas's fantasy comes to pass then the palestinians will have peretz for breakfast.

Irrellavent... Your neither Jewish Nor Palestinian... Lay off the Findlandia when ``talking back`` on HaAretz..

Two points. First, while Israel definitely has societal problems and economic problems, unlike just about every other poster here I really don't know what the best solution is. What I do know is that the solution is DEFINITELY not socialism. Second, the evidence of the last 100 years shows that the Arabs are not has rational has Jews and in fact they are not rational at all. Lastly, unless I'm missing something the backbone of Likud is Sephardic. And that's because they know the Arabs best. I for one would have no problem with a tough Sephardi Jew has prime minister. They at least know who they are dealing with.

Thank God Peretz got 42% to Peres's 40%! Out with the old order and in with the new! May it happen sooner than later! Peres for Israeli Ambassador to Poland Sharon has two options, either a box in the Hague before the International Court of Justice, or under house arrest on the ranch. May Perez lead Israel to peace with Palestine!

could it be that israel finally has a political figure who understands the reality of the situation in palestine, and is able to see the dangers facing his nation as a direct concequence of the occupation?after all most sucide bombers were movtivated primarily by the humiliation of the occupation, and the longer it lasts the deeper the cancer within israli society grows. may god give him the strength to take the bull by the horns and get out of the w bank and jerusalem,. the refugee problem may then in fact be the easiest to deal with.

I give Peretz the benefit of the doubt. He is a serious person who seems to believe in justice and equity. I hope that many of the voters who traditionally voted for shas and Likud out of ethnic loyalty would now joing this man. I also hope that he will be able to reform a party that has become the party of the rich Ashkenazis...

An amacable solution to the plight of the destituted refugees. A shared Jerusalem and the wall/fence moved to Israel proper. Anything else would indeed be "naive" to even contemplate as a solution. Peretz knows this and sees the beligerent occupation as an ethnical problem for Israel, he is obviously a man with his heart for the "ordinary man" and as an "Jewish Arab" probably has no hate towards "Muslim Arabs". The rascism in Israel seem to be towards Arabs of any religion by the Ashkenazi Jews. The "ethnical demon" is rather obviously presented when the "white" Jews ridicules the chances for a Mizrahi Jew to lead them out of the quagmire they got Israel into. Well one thing is for sure, the European Jews haven't even tried to be fair or seek a fair solution to the tradgedy of the Palestinians, Palestinians that were in the "land without people for a people without land" and pretty much just in the way for the Zionists out of Europe. Let's hope there is less hate from "Jewish Arabs" towards "Muslim Arabs" than there is from the Ashkenazis towards them. Peretz has at least shown Peres right colours after his "I rather be #2 to Sharon than #2 to Peretz" and at the same time shown that the Labor made the right choice. Peres was never anything but a Sharon lite, hiding behind platitudes fit for head lines and quotes, but not for anything closely resembling a fair solution to any problems. When you read Israeli newspaper and they call it "The New Labor" after Peretz win, one can't but to react to the fact that it is really "The Old Labor" that is back after so many years of walking around in circles in the political desert. "Home is were your heart is" and Labor is back home. Now the 'old' saying "It's the economy stupid" will show Olmert that the Bibi/Sharon budget is dead as a door nail. Peretz will blame Sharon, Sharon will blame Bibi and Bibi will stick to his guns and say that this is the budget needed for a prosperous Israel, for some. Soon Sharon will start to hand out ....hand outs and he will try to steal Peretz agenda of socio-ecomomics and be almost Santa. Why he hasn't done anything, but hurt the weakest sections of society for years, will be hard to explain and what's more -Will anybody believe him? Sharon may look good in the polls today, but deception is a slippery slope. The real danger to another term for Sharon is the "everybody for themselves" attitude among the opposition, a united opposition would be a real threat to more of the war criminals dreams and schemes and sad visions.