Analysis / Escalation everywhere

Zionists are keen to look at the facts as they were 2000 years ago but shut their eyes to facts as they are now. Israel still occupies the Shabaa farms in Southern Lebanon and like the Palestinians, they have the title Deeds to prove it. The world raised furor when Mugabe moved a few white Zimbabweans who had only occupied the land for 150 years in favour of the blacks but no one cries when the zionist murder and plunder to restore a religious claim over 2000 years old. I the state of Israel is to survive it has to wake up. The flags of Palestine are being raised all over the world. Apartheid is a naricissitic germ of self destruction. Peace is the only way to survive.

Well, let see, Israel has taken in millions of poor refugees, while Ireland dumped their poor on the US. Was that Ireland's way of imposing natural selection? Oh, wait. Blame it all on the Brits.

If the settlers are itching for a fight, the IDF should simply leave them to fend for themselves against the Palestinian horde. It will allow the Palestinians to do what they do best. Kill. And, if they survive, they can become part of a Palestinian state where they can make headlines (unlikely) being persecuted every day.

Unfortunately that does seem to be the reality on the ground right now...hopefully, with massive aid grants to NGO's on the ground in the GS, Hamas's influence can be incrementally whittled away...but it's going to take a lot of aid, a lot of rebuilding and helping the Pales', taking the place of Hamas, in the GS to accomplish this...short of this, you're right...Hamas is a player here to stay...

Really? The Pales' and Israelis are enemies...are you for perpetual war, or unconditional Pales' surrender...extremist "anti-Semite hunters" really irk me, Dolphinarium2001...

Yes, it's these people I truly despise the most...they go to Israel under the guise of wanting to cash in on the Israeli citizenship card (when Palestinians married to Israelis, eg, are denied entry into Israel)...then they can't even obey the laws of the land...

If history has taught us anything at all, it is that the problem and the solution are as one. Until you give Hamas a stake in the peace, it will not be in their interest to secure it. Anyone who argues otherwise, I would argue, has forsaken any peaceful solution. Peace.

Roberto: I think we are in agreement on many issues in this debate however I need to point out to you some aspects namely: The Sheik Mudairis had a sermon on Friday 13 May 2005 for the Muslim Sabath ON NATIONAL PALESTINIAN MAINSTREAM TV inciting his audience to slaughter Jews wherever they may be [NOTA BENE:Jews not Israelis].He said quote/unquote that:"The Muslims will eventually reconquer the West.Spain,France,England and even the US will be under Muslim rule and those people can expect a peaceful and tolerant muslim rule.Not the Jews though.Jews will be slaughtered everywhere.They deserve it because they killed the prophets [?] and the falsified the scriptures [?]...Jews are like vermin,an infection like AIDS " This is only one in a long stream of similar inflamatory genocidal incitements which are almost daily disseminated through the mainstream media in Palestine and other Arab countries.What makes this so special is that: 1/ It happens in May this year under the moderate rule of Abu Mazen not Arafat while Israel is ready to disengage and there are moves to re-start the peace process. 2/It is broadcasted from Ramallah which is supposed to be under Israeli iron clad occupation.What occupation is this really if there is practically no control on such outrageous preaching ? 3/It isn't about the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people which I certainly uphold.It isn't about the dignity of this people and the respect for their religion and culture.It is about incitement to kill Jews.All Jews wherever they may be just because they are born Jews.That includes me,my family...I mean Muslims everywhere are taught to attack us wherever we may be.This is how they educate their young.This is part of their religion now. You will forgive me for becoming paranoid about stuff like that especially since some of us went through such things only 60 years ago. Nothing can justify this kind of rethoric.If you want peace you fight for your rights and you sugest a peaceful solution to the conflict but if you incite to genocide don't expect us to be compliant and talk peace and moderation. Like you said there are two to tango. All the best P.S. You will notice that our Arab and palestinian friends in this talkback become dead silent when we mention these things

Daniel: I agree with you: there is a lot of angry and demagogic rhetoric in the Palestinian side, but there is also a lot of genuine pragmatism and moderation that you are not willing to see. Also, it's not a symmetric conflict: Israel is a developed sovereign state, with a powerfull army. The Palestine is a semi-state (the PA) with very limited power, under direct Israeli control. On the refugees, you have to listen to what the refugees themselves are saying. In a previous post I mentioned a poll taken by a West Bank polster by the name of Shikili which shows that only 10% of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon are adamant in returning to their places of origin in Israel proper. So, who cares if some demagogue Sheik Mudaris is calling them to "swamp" Israel, when the refugees themselves are indicating they are ready to negociate the ways the "right of return" could be implemented. The problem is the absolute refusal of the present Sharon government (or even Barak) to even consider discussing this delicate issue. Once the Israeli government is seen seriuosly dealing with settlers, removing checkpoints and ready to negociate the refugees and Jerusalem, you will see Palestinian moderates telling publicly and loudly to Mudaris to shut up. Hopefully the disengagement from Gaza will have its own dynamics that will overtake Sharon himself and be the begining of this process. Meanwhile the Palestinian moderates cannot convince their constituencies of the good will of Israel. Likewise, in hte Israeli side, could you as a moderate Jew have talked about moderation in 2002 in the face of widespread suicide bombing? few Jews would have listened. The same rule applies to Palestinian moderates: they can talk moderation in the face of Israeli violence (checkpoints, settlers, etc), but few Palestinians will listen. Now, after some lull in the violence and the disengagament going, people are begining to listen. Remember: you need two to tango !!

and mark, it was the intention of the league of nations in 1922 to give the jews a homeland! SO STOP BEING CLEVER AND ABSORB THE POINT!!!!!

dera giles , it is incredible with robot likre accuracy that answers by haaretz correspondents cannot keep to the point at issue? clearly your letter is out of the top of your head because YOU CANNOT SEE FROM MELBOURNE TO ISRAEL!!!!

The title of your subject line "Israeli leaders have to take responsibility for the deaths of both Jews and Arabs", is part of the problem with so many Arab and Islamic people today.You never want to take any responsibility for any bad thing you ever do. This is nothing new this sort of "pass the buck" on the part of the Arab and Islamists terrorists and the people who support them has been going on for years now. I still remember as a little girl watching the newsbroadcasts about the Iranian hostage crisis. According to the Iranians,it wasn't their fault at all that they took 50 Americans hostage and held them for over a year and a half often torturing them both physically and emotionally for days. No according to them and their spirtual terrorist leader Khomeni,it was all the fault of the great satan United States for giving refuge to a sick man[the Shah] who was dying of cancer. This sort of denial of responsibility has been a continual,sad pattern in the Islamic and Arab world for as long as I can remember. As far as I know,Sharon and almost every Israeli politician and Israeli citizen[even those mean old Jewish settlers]have condemned in the strongest terms the near lynch of the Arab man the other day by the hatefilled,extremist Jewish zealots. None of your people ever did any soul searching or condemned the terrorists who claim to represent you when they lynched those two Jewish boys a few years back or all the other Jewish settlers who have been the victims of Arab lynchers. I can assure you though their parents and family members don't blame the Israeli leaders or Israeli policies they blame the people who are really to blame the people who premeditiated and perpertrated their brutal murders,and the people who support them.

Mimi I jst want to say....go go go...I agree with you 100%. I was in Gush Katif just two weeks ago and I am utterly appalled at what is taking place...and to know my government supports this 'reward for terror'.

Sami if I could I would remove the occupation tomorrow.Personally I believe that the occupation is an act of aggression.There you have it.Many other Jews are probably less blunt than I am but I can assure you that if the Arabs stop both the incitement and the terrorist acts against innocent civilians in Israel most Israelis will support the end of occupation in exchange for real peace.Land for Peace.We're not stupid you know.Why should we support the interests of less than 5% of the Israeli population living in settlements at the expense of the whole country living in peace? THE TERRITORIES ARE NOT WORTH ONE DROP OF JEWISH OR ARAB BLOOD. The deal:The Geneva Initiative.It covers everything from borders to the refugees through to implementation in detail.Forget about 47,48 and 67.Do you agree? Unfortunately to this date the problem is existential not territorial. Palestinians and Arabs are engaged in double talk and double standards.One talk for the Western and Israeli consumption and another for their own domestic consumption. To the West they say exactly what you say except that they're a bit coy about certain details such as a just solution for the refugees To their own people:sermons like that of Sheik Mudairis[what's your opinion about this character and those like him by the way?]glorification of shahids,incitements to "liberate" all of Palestine and the hope of Al Awda-the right to return of 4 mil Arabs to a country which has already 5 mil Jews and 1.5 mil Arabs [If that would happen we would have to claim back our right to return to Europe and Arab countries too-we lived there for hundreds if not thousands of years-many Jews are also refugees]How can these refugees come back without displacing the existing population?To do that they would have to evict or exterminate the Jewish population there. I personally believe that Jews and Arabs should be brothers not enemies and that Israel should be a secular state for all its citizens but as long as people living there feel their very existence threatened it won't be peace. Not to mention that we feel threatened so far away from Israel by the renewed antisemism caused by this conflict and the old canards spread by the Arab and Muslim media

Now where would you deport them to where do they originate? Mecca? Jordan? Egypt? Syria?" Why not deport them back to the part of Palestine from which their parents were probably driven in 1948?

It is time to arrest these kahanists, demolish their homes and deport their families back to the US where they will be kept under surveillance as members of a terrorist organisation. There is no other way to handle these rejectionists. Please Yaacov, don't send them to the US. We have enough war mongering crazies running around as it is. They would team up with the Christian fundimentalist and who knows what would happen? Heck, we might have to cordon off Texas!

however the fact is the arab Palestinians who are domineered by all the terrorists feel otherwise so, since the arab palestinian majority has no say or is afraid to say we consider the voice of the terrorits as speaking for all the arab Fateh Organization Website Description Formed by militant Palestinians in the Gaza Strip during the 1970s, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) is committed to the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state and the destruction of Israel through attacks against Israeli military and civilian targets inside Israel and the Palestinian territories. Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ) MidEast Web - Hamas Charter "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. " "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors." "After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying." palestinians go ahead surf the web you can find it then come here and tell us how arab palestinians have recognized and accepted a non muslim country in the neighbourhood

the Israeli government, is constantly accused of being equivalent to apartheid simply because it represents a national emancipation movement which differs from others in being Jewish. Today, within Israel, Jews are a majority, but the Arab minority are full citizens with voting rights and representation in the government. Under apartheid black South Africans could not vote and were not citizens of the country in which they are the overwhelming majority of the population. Now read on my ignorant friend and respond WHO IS AFFLICTED WITH APARTHEID? An English translator of the Koran, wrote one hundred and twenty years ago that Muslims then treated the Jews ?as the most abject and contemptible people on earth.? This attitude existed long before the term "Zionism" was coined. The contempt of Jews pervaded everyday behavior. An Arab who felt he was being treated with contempt by another would say: "Am I a Jew to you?", just as his Western counterpart, who feels cheated in a business transaction, says: ?I was ?Jewed.?? That this most abject, Jewish "millet" should presume to rule over Muslims in the Arab heartland is a particularly unbearable thought, and is probably sufficient reason why it is NOT the shape or extent, but rather the FACT of Jewish STATEHOOD, that most disturbs the Arabs. Wherefore Umar Rushdi, lecturer in National Guidance at the Egyptian Military Academy, wrote in his book, ?Zionism and its Protegé Israel,? pp. 61: ?As we have said and will always say, there is no possibility that Israel shall live in the middle of an environment that loathes and despises her; not only is this the Arab feeling, but they [the Arabs] are profoundly convinced that their existence is a constant danger to the security and integrity of the region, and that Israel does not represent a State but the focus of imperialist plots and intrigues against this region. It is obvious that the absorption of Israel in the Arab homeland is impossible in any shape or form."

Mr. Lincoln, you are very much mistaken when you allege that Ben Gurion allowed Menachem Begin and Yaacov Meridor into the Government. Upon the "moledet" (birth) of Israel, Israel became a democracy. All political parties, including the Communists, could apply for votes for the First Knesset. Menachem Begin and Yaacov Meridor (who were the leaders of the Irgun) were elected by Israeli voters to the first and subsequent Knessets. Ben Gurion never appointed either Begin or Meridor. In fact, Ben Gurion refused to speak to Menachem Begin or to refer to him by his name. Instead of calling the Irgun Zvi Leumi a terrorist organization, you can learn more about it at its website www.etzel.org.il. If you are not Jewish, you might learn something. The enemy were the British colonialists who were killing Jews and deporting Jews to Africa. Congressman DeLay also happens to represent my area of Fort Bend County, Texas, in the United States House of Representatives. He is a very good friend of Israel and of the Jewish people.

It is time to arrest these kahanists, demolish their homes and deport their families back to the US where they will be kept under surveillance as members of a terrorist organisation. There is no other way to handle these rejectionists."" Yaacov I agree with you that the Kahanists should be dealt with appropriately. You dont know for sure if they are all Americans do you? Assumption on your part tsk tsk :-) You must insist then that Arab Palestinians deprt and deal appropriately with Hamas Islamic Jihad Al Aqsa Brigades Fateh all the proteges of Yasser Arafat. Now where would you deport them to where do they originate? Mecca? Jordan? Egypt? Syria? your pick. when dealing with such issues a balance is required, where your suggestion lacks it and is lopsided and ridiculous

Mark Lincoln, I enjoy reading your posts. It's obvious that you have an excellent understanding of the history of the region. You seem to pursue a moderate and well reasoned course. I too voted for Goldwater - it seems like a lifetime ago. Indeed it was. Fred Fred

It is time to arrest these kahanists, demolish their homes and deport their families back to the US where they will be kept under surveillance as members of a terrorist organisation. There is no other way to handle these rejectionists.

Peter, it seems you are accusing me of terrorism and you know this is a serious charge and is a defamation and character assasination. If I where you, you should calm down, a free debate may not be to good for your brain, it will self destruct with some taints of some intelligent comments. No my friend, I don't blow up plane, and I don't blow up houses and buses and I don't kill people. I am not so sure that I will be safe on a plane with you. Lack of intelligence can be contaigous disease. My advice to you , quarantee yourself, you are an insult to this forum.

disengagement, good. One might think that the arab palestinians would shift from being UNRWA beggars to independent people what is independence meaning to them? what are they going to complain about no more Israelis to blame! Are Arab Palestinians will start building their Gaza the next day? dont hold your breath! Seeing Iraq on TV - a rich country desolate - sand dunes - uncultivated land - palm trees just dejavu from biblical times, dusty folks roaming around - unkempt children probably never experienced a bath - donkeys and camels roam the streets gosh - medieval ages or dark ages! Hamas is not the only terrorist organization in Gaza. We know that squeezing Hamas is like squeezing Jello. Each group works with other groups. Individuals change over as convenient. Striking Hamas is a good idea but Mofaz would only be able to strike a handful of leaders before the rest scatter and join other old established terrorist groups funded and run by outside forces like Iran, Syria and even the Iraqis Ba'ath Party terrorists - U.S. troops have not been able to stamp them out in Iraq. Then there will be new groups who will form out of the scattered Hamas/Al Aksa/Fatah/Hezb'Allah probably linking up with various Al Qaeda groups glad to take a guiding role. Add to the mix some disgruntled Muslims from Europe. And maybe hate-fed, mosque-educated brats from America. That's only a small segment of why Mofaz and Sharon's Plan will not work. Let's move on to bigger and better reasons. The point I make is that Muslim Jihadists swarm, particularly when urged on by their Mullahs and religious clerics to join in the great war against the infidel - Jews, Christians and all other non-Muslims. At present, American troops are under attack from a swarm of Islamists coming into Iraq from Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Lebanon, Egypt, Chechnya and other Muslim countries. Even Muslims who are European are coming in to fight the infidel Americans. It's fun for them and gives their lives a purpose approved by Allah. The good thing is thePlan may take Israel out of the Arab job market by creating a barrier to Arab entry into Israel. This could result in the Arab Palestinians reversing their migration back into Egypt, Jordan or simply returning to Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia or anywhere in the entire Arab world from where they migrated. (The natural border is, of course, the Jordan River, not the fence Israel is busily building.) Judging from history, longterm it is indeed likely that the Arabs will destroy the land and move elsewhere. But that's long term. Meantimes, they can feed for a long time on what Israel has built and developed.

I hope that after reading postings from the opposite side nobody should have an illussion what kind of peace they are preparing for us. If there is anything positive in this tragic situation it's maybe lessons that we have to learn. We have to learn how to get alone with each other. We have to finally understand that there is NO partner to negosiate with. When we unite we are strong enough to defeate our enemies. We defeated them in 1948, then 1956, then 1967, then 1973,then 1982 and if we managed to elect better politicians our children won't have to do it in the future.In this difficult time we should remain strong. We got through much harder times in our history.Now we're standing on OUR LAND. AM ISRAEL HI!

I am lost sometimes in what to say to people like you, who continue to insist that the Palestinians and the Arabs are out to destroy Israel. Not only did the Palestinians recongise Israel as a Jewish state back in 88, but the Arab league and Saudi Arabia all accepted and condition the recognition of Israel on ending the occupation. It is time for you and others like you to get over this idea and non sense and move forward. I am not so sure of the claim that the majority of Jews accepts the idea of a two state solution,. If this is the case, common man, end the occupation, get it over with and let us getting going, both of us. What are you waiting for and what the settlers are all about. Just read the majority of the posting and you will see that majority of Jews are far, far from ready to make peace. They live back in the time of Bible and deny that I have any right to exist. So please let us not repeat the non-sense that the Arabs wants to destroy Israel. No one want, but which Israel are we talking about, the one of 47, or 48, or 67 or Greater Israel from Iraq to Egypt, when you decide where are the borders of Israel, let me know, and I will bring the Arabs to the table to smoke peace pipe with you.

My future and yours depend on each other. And when we don`t give you your rights, then our society will be destroyed an Israeli student to her Pal palfriend, 1989 Israel needs to a lasting peace a good neighborhood to the Palestinians. As long as the Palestinians can`t live in dignity, as long as a Palestinian child doesn`t have the same chances like an Israeli child, Israel will have no real peace. Avi Primor Open the mouths to those who can`t speak and to everything of those, who are left alone Open your mouth and speak for justice and care for justice for miserable and the poor! (all translation) Solomo 31,8/9

The Jewish silent majority both in Israel and everywhere else are against the occupation and for a peace settlement meaning the removing of settlements and withdrawal of the IDF behind the cease fire line before June 1967 however don't delude yourself most if not all Jews will never accept the dismantling of the State of Israel or its invasion through the so called right of return or Al Awda to Israel proper. Palestinians and Arabs in general are continuously brainwashed by their media demonising and dehumanising Israel and the Jews.It's a relentless campaign using every means at its disposal including anti-semitic diatribes borrowed from the Nazi era. You should look after your extremists and we will look after ours. Why are people like Sheik Ibrahim Mudairis still allowed to preach the killing of all Jews on Palestinian mainstream television? His sermons-I presume-are broadcasted from Ramallah under Israeli occupation??!! I mean is this really occupation if they are allowed to spit their hatred like that?Educate your people to respect us,our culture and religion so we can all live in peace

"ot many of Europe`s brave journalists are willing to risk their lives getting dirty in south eastern turkey with an issue that is as unsexy as the genocide perpetrated by the turks on the Kurds." - Fox If the Turks would let a journalist in. . . one thing receiving little or no attention is that Kurds in Iraq have been supporting a renewal of the war in Turkey. "At no time did the turks or anyone else in the area ever distinguish the so-called Palestinians from the Syrians, interesting eh?" - Fox All current boundaries are based mostly upon the division of the Ottoman empire engineered by the British and French during WW I. But those boundaries were not without some reality based upon populations, religion, and commercial patterns. Often, the intent - as with Iraq - was to create an administrative 'country' which had enough 'diversity' as to allow England to easily 'divide and rule." In other cases, it was the desire of France to create a "Christian" state, Lebanon, and an Arab one, Syria from what was essentially one reality. They may not be good boundaries, but we are stuck with them.

"But you do have a tendency to show a touch of insanity when approaching American politics and what you term liberal and conservative stands and philosophies." - Fox The insanity is that the "liberal" and "conservative' positions have totally reversed themselves in the last 40 years. In 1964 when I worked as a youngster in the Goldwater campaign, Republicans were actually conservative. They favored limited, prudent government, individual rights, and fiscal responsibility. Republicans prided themselves upon being the 'peace' party while democrats were the 'war' party. Now, it is the Republicans who in actions - which as Teddy Roosevelt pointed out 'speak louder than words' - favor larger government, reduced individual rights, fiscally irresponsiblity, and pride themselves upon being the party of war. I have, after a life time, found myself without a party. Once upon a time, Americans had a choice between "tax and spend Democrats" and "fiscally responsible Republicans". Now the only choice is between 'tax and spend Democrats' and 'borrow and spend even more Republicans." "You worte "They are often encouraged and supported by Conservative governments. . . they are often given total license by . . . governments such as the Likud . . and the Houses of Saud and Bush; . .." Quite a staement, it sounds good and even looks correct on paper but does not jibe with reality." - Fox You, my friend, did not spend years at Republican Party of Texas Precinct Conventions, 17th Senate District Conventions, and State Conventions as the religious right took total control of the Republican Party of Texas, and the Republican National Committee. I did. I know how the takeover was done, and how it was funded. Tom DeLay is my congressman. . . Now the religious right is considered by all as the Republican "base". "It was the Labor government that first instituted the settling of the West Bank and Gaza. A number of Democratic governmetns and presidents in the US sided with this policy, " - Fox I admit that Labor was the first to back settlements - but mostly limited to strategic locations, and later to defuse a political issue that Likud enjoyed. The "Jewish" vote here in the US is a traditionally Democrat vote, and Democrats cater to it. Now the GOP is catering to it as well, hoping to pry it away from the Democrats. "In the US it was the democrat herat throb Kenedey who through the first american boys into Viet Nam." - Fox I still remember when folks jumped all over Bob Dole when he referred to Vietnam as a 'democrat war", but it was. . . "While it was Roosevelt who was not willing to take on Hitler and the Japanese," - Fox It was isolationist Republicans who argued that Roosevelt was trying to get us into WW II, and who opposed efforts such as Lend Lease, and pushed for the Neutrality Act. One of my all time favorite Republicans, Senator George Norris, was one of the most outspoken. Look him up. "Usually the only way I can tell the difference is by the support or non-support of the National Rifle Association." - Fox It used to be a fine organization, by the 1990s, it had become so extremist that President Bush's father, ex-President G.H.W. Bush, quit in disgust. "The Left in the US has to be distinguished from the Liberals." - Fox Not much left of the "left" in America, and the liberals are in total disarray. "Both facism and communism have been tried and have failed miserably ussually for the same reasons." - Fox Agreed, Two sides of the same coin.

There is no sense in debating with an enemy!

Azzam go and celebrate but you know your not getting anything more than you could have received before the start of the latest intifadah.

"In my view the fact that Hamas decide to participate in the election is great first step in the long process of establishing a democratic political system in Palestine. let us keep in mind, that many of the Jewish terrorist organization came in and join the political process." - Sami Jamil Ben Gurion had to let the likes of the Irgun and Stern gang join the government, or he would have had to fight them. "To me and to many Palestinians we do believe that there were Jewish terrorist organizations that formed the intial Israeli army" - Sami The majority of the men and women who fought in the War of Independence were from the Haganah, and not from terrorist organizations like the Irgun and Stern gang.

Yes Yan, this seems to prove that this disengagement is for making Gaza a concentration camp. However it won't work. No matter what route Israel has taken, it always finds out that no covert "giving freedom or autonomy to Palestinians" works. Plus Yan, the world is not stupid. Some may be brainwashed by Zionist influenced medias but the world knows that the occupation of Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem is the only solution. So deal with it!

believe they will push you into the sea?But let`s say you would only half the way the Torah tells you to do(not only one people related)you would already be accepted. BUT why don`t you consider Palestinians not as worth as yourself, esp. Steven? As chosen people don`t you have the responsibility to care for justice, freedom, equality instead making people scared fearing peace

Shoshana I've read Israeli, Palestinian, and numerous international papers. The fact that 8,000 settlers control 40 percent of Gaza is enough of an apartheid. There is no race whatsoever that would allow such a small speck of the population to control so much wealth and resources. So enough of the propoganda. Roberto, I am in agreement that if those refugees are able to accept going back to a Palestinian state in the West Bank or Gaza or East Jerusalem then it's more pragmatic because the extremists on both sides want different. If this is the will of the refugees in making a compromise then I would dare say it's extreme. It's practical. Which ultimately means for a successful Palestine and Israel, the illegal occupation must end. By the way, the Palestinians did not choose war in "47". The conflict started way earlier when Britain supported Zionism and allowed for absentee Arab households to be given to Jews and allowed such a mass immigration of Jews that many Arabs especially farmers became slaves. So don't give me the Arabs chose war in 1947. By the 1940's after the Arab revolt, the Palestinians were maimed by the British. The Zionist militant forces knew Palestine was not going to be a problem to conquer. The fact that Jordan which probably had the only decent Arab army was able to hold on the West Bank was what pissed Israel and Ben Gurion off. Remember Ben Gurion in his memoirs agreed to the Partition for one because it gave the minority jews the majority of the land and 2, that it was only a phase and the next phase would be taking over all of Palestine. Israel did not offer peace in 1967. It started an illegal occupation. It started settlements. You're kidding me right? Israel just did not accept the idea of allowing the Palestinians determine their fate. They wanted the Palestinians to be represented by Egypt or Jordan. Hogwash! The Palestinians are a separate Arab nationality, it is they who lost homes from 1948, it is they who are responsible for their future. If Israel allowed for a Palestinian state and infrastructure to be established, none of this would have happened. Always having the Masada complex and just framing every single Arab leader or Palestinian leader as somehow coverting to eventually throw the Jews to the sea is what the main problem is. Israel has to get rid of the paranoia. Most Palestinians have accepted a 2 state solution. Even the extremist Palestinian factions who have decided to go the political route know that a 2 state solution is the only realist approach. So when are the Israeli extremists going to follow such suit? EXACTLY! PEACE!

"Unfortunately, the zionists were NOT claiming an uninhabited land for the future homeland. They were mistaken in this, the land was inhabited and these inhabitants were not going to release it without a fight. Zionists in Europe were not aware of this, but Ben Gurion, Zhabotinsky all zionist leaders on the ground knew it." - roberto The original efforts by Zionists between Herzl and the partition were for the most part based upon coexistence, and legal means of acquiring land. Starting with Arab violence, Zionists like Jabotinsky and his Revisionists Zionist Party did start to advocate counter-terrorism, and criminal expropriation. But to argue that Jabotinsky represented the majority of Zionists in Palestine in1929, or the majority of Israelis today is entirely wrong. "My claim is that what`s done it`s done, we cannot change history, so Israelis & Palestinians have to reconcile, look towards the future and be pragmatic." - Roberto I agree. After a 19th century where the United States treated Mexico in a most rapacious fashion, waging a totally unjust and unjustifiable war of conquest against Mexico; our nations have managed to work out a modus vivendi which benefits both. There is still too much hubris by Americans, and too much suspicion by Mexicans, but things are much better than they were.

I will soon go to BOTH countries and I have read a book by this writer together with a friend I know for quite a while. I actually appreciate my friends very much. This friend is travelling for 41 years now regularly to Israel proper and the territories. What she told me I will not tell, you won`t believe anyway, I couldn`t hardly then neither(but as my friend, what`s left?)-go visit your friend Steve-he is a brilliant example of a fascist settler. This friend is not Palestinian, nor Arab, nor muslim, nor religious in any kind by the way.

Israel invaded Lebanon and killed 17,000 people in the process as recently as 1982. Excuse me?

Israel is facing its major crisis since its creation. One thing is sure: Evacuation will not achieve peace The only possibility to end this crisis is to create one democratic state with equal rights for all, regardless of their religion, including: - the right of the settlers to live where they like - the right of the Palestinian refugees to return home. Any other solution will lead to the destruction of all the region by Palestinian and Israeli fundamentalists.

"I will not give up my property to you or to any one else, Bible or Quran or both." Samil habibi, I am lost. What are you? Are you Moroccon, thus an Arab occupationist and conquerer of the Moorish people, or are you a Palestinian far from home? Or are you simply an Arab Moslem who views any land once conquered and crushed by the Islamic conquests to be Moslem land forever. If any of these are true than you are guilty of an act you find so deplorable, conquest. Or is conquest and occupation only a bad word when you are on the losing side? Please explain I am interested in reading how you squirm out of this one.

thank you for the information Paul. I was under the impression that athelone was a kind of fish which fed on excrement, but now I know better.

Thank you Mr. Harris. I cannot see so far, and sometimes overstep the bounds of what I know. But I do know that sparks of a volotile rebellion against actions to reduce demographic problems are 'round and about. With a great deal of support, moderates on both sides of this conflict may reach a mutually agreed upon and peaceable conclusion to both sides' contrary claims. (I do not drink. Perhaps a calm demeanor comes upon me by its own).

Hopefully there are more level headed "moderates" than you around. Let us know which flight you are on so we can all avoid it.

I never said you don't have a right to your property or that you have no place in Israel. If you have property in Israel and are willing to coexist in peace with the the Jewish people then you have every right to keep it. There have always been Non Jews living in Israel aside Jews from ancient times onwards. There is a difference between individual ownership of land and national sovereignity or national identity. If I have the money I assume I can buy property in Morocco even though I am an American citizen just as you can buy property in the U.S. I am only saying that just as you want us to respect your individual rights you need to respect what is holy to the Jewish people.

dear fox athlone is an irish county. when israel was a country with culture, religion and writings and civilised the natives in that part were still painting themselves with blue woad.

Well, Daniel that may be true as far as you are concerned and what you are telling me, is that I have no place in Palestine. Well, sorry to disappoint you, but I don't accept it and don't buy it. I will be in the US in a very short time, and please send me your deed to the land signed by G-d and notorized by the prophets and registered in the land registery and if that stands in court, any court, then I am willing to give up my rights and give it to you, simply because you are Jewish. Common, with all due respect to the Bible and the Quran, I will not give up my property to you or to any one else, Bible or Quran or both. That is also non-negotiable. If you want to start all over again, I can do that too.

YOUR LETER IS SO MIXED UP IT SEEMS IMPOSSIBLE TO UNDERSTAND IT ????????????????? HOWEVER I ASSUME THAT YOU ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT ZEALOTS? WHO EXACTLY DO YOU THINK WENT TO ISRAEL WITH A ZIONIST DREAM AND PIONEERED A COUNTRY? TO PEOPLE SITTING IN TORONTO WHO HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT REALLY TAKES TO DO SOMETHING AND ACHIEVE IT !THE RONNIE WOLMANS OF THIS WORLD WAFFLE AWAY AND WAFFLE AWAY TALKING TRIPE. AT THIS TIME THERE ARE MANY OF THE PIONEER IN ISRAEL WHO SEE THE DREAM AND WANT TO ACHIEVE IT! THIS IS WHAT THE STRUGGLE IS ABOUT !!!

...hould continue writing enormous headers for posts with nearly zero content. This way we read their "demoloishing" header and we don't have to read their diminished posts and verify that 99% of them just contain the same lame arguments: (1) the world is antisemitic (2) settlers never did any harm to Palestinians (3) settlers are "the cream" of the Jewish people (4) oposition to the settlers is only motivated by pure hate against them (5) all what Arabs want is to kill Jews (destroy Israel) (6) Jordan is the Palestinian state (7) There are 22 Arab dictatorships (8) Jews who criticize settlers are not "patriotic" (but self haters) All the posts of settler supporters that we read in this forum are these arguments juggled in different combinations, often expressed as predictable one-liners that are supposted to be "demolishing" truths. Besides this pattern, the agile mind of the settler-supporter in his settler hasbara crusade (in this and other forums) does the following mental trick: A non-Jew or non-Arab from Rarotonia criticizes settlers or Israeli policies. Mr/Ms settler-supporter replies "how dare you criticize Israel, when Rarotonia has ...." and then quotes a long list of ill doings and misgivings supposedly made by Rarotonians. Since every country (including Rarotonia) is imperfect and has done some misgivings in history, from the logic of this settler hasbara tactic, only G-D is pure enough to criticize WB & G settlements. This tactic not only dispenses Mr/Ms settler-supporter from responding to criticism, but is becoming increasingly repulsive to many Rarotonians and other nationalities (but settler-supporters live in a narcisistic bubble and don't care). So, Mr/Ms settler-supporter, keep posting enormous post headers: we already know what you say and it will help us navigate around the intellectual debris that you scatter around in this forum.

so it was not enough for you to be called django, now to gain some sense of belonging you have lined upwith Kay and have become a member of the Mordechai fan club. Such a sad existence, when this guy is who you name yourself after, but it is somehow cute. You went on to quote Mandela, another guy who had not been to Israel before opening his mouth. I repsect Mandela for his fight for freedom, but I do not spend my time quoting others, or treating humans as god like figures. As for apartheid, and yes I was alive during the time and read alot on what was going on there. I remember apartheid as meaning more than anything the sepeartaion of the races. First of all this is not a war of the races, two there are no Arab only signs anywhere in any washroom, restaurant, train, plane, the Knesset or any other public place in Israel. Sorry that is not true, there are Moslem only signs on the temple mount, but forget that because it does not jibe with your narrow view of the world. I just came back from the closing party for the first year of my child's school. A mixed school where Moslem Israelis and jewish Israeli children learn together. I saw no seperation nor felt the animositythat you say is so prevalent here, but you are reading your lovely anti-zionist sites on the internet and you must be closer to the situation than me, you fool.

History does not lie. The great "creator" of allah tried to become a Jew first. There is no credibility to this religion which came thousands of years after the birth of Judaism. Like it or lump it.

Athlone, whatever that may be. You have obviously never been to either of the two countries mentioned in your little rhetorical posting. By the way the Kurds, who the Turks have all but removed from the map, have been a ntion for two thousand years. They have in the past had a country with a language and a distinct culture, none of which can be said for the Palestinians. But since you get all your information from the Television news, then it is expected that you would be so ignorant. Not many of Europe's brave journalists are willing to risk their lives getting dirty in south eastern turkey with an issue that is as unsexy as the genocide perpetrated by the turks on the Kurds. since you know so little, it may help you to know, that the Turks have ruled much of the middle east since Sulieman rode in a conquered the Christian enclave of jerusalem right upuntil the first world war. turkish maps call what you term Palestine, "Greater Syria". At no time did the turks or anyone else in the area ever distinguish the so-called Palestinians from the Syrians, interesting eh?

Hi Mark, I must tell you that I enjoy reaing your postings. You do not take yourself to seriously and you have a tendency to take the center on the issue, which shows some sanity on your part. This not being an issue which actually effects your day to day life over thar in Texas, you hav tried to view events objectively and I appreciate that. But you do have a tendency to show a touch of insanity when approaching American politics and what you term liberal and conservative stands and philosophies. You worte "They are often encouraged and supported by Conservative governments. Indeed, they are often given total license by Conservative governments such as the Likud of Ariel Sharon, or the Houses of Saud and Bush; they ultimately embarrass and vex those governments with their insane behavior." Quite a staement, it sounds good and even looks correct on paper but does not jibe with reality. It was the Labor government that first instituted the settling of the West Bank and Gaza. A number of Democratic governmetns and presidents in the US sided with this policy, if not through their actions than through their silence. much of this was due to the cold war, others saw it as Israel's right after fighting three major wars to reap the fruits of victory. In the US it was the democrat herat throb Kenedey who through the first american boys into Viet Nam. While it was Roosevelt who was not willing to take on Hitler and the Japanese, who were definitely not democrats. It is often done but rarely stands up to reality these vast generalizations. Religion as a moral and political force has been both to our benefit and has thrown roadblocks on the road to progress. that is the ying-yang way of the world, what we have to seek is the pragmatic balance of the center. Right and left have both been so perverted to the point that they mirror each other. Left wing sites or almost impossible to distinguish from white supremacist sites when it comes to the subject of Israel, interesting. Usually the only way I can tell the difference is by the support or non-support of the National Rifle Association. What has become scariest of all is that the right and left are both preaching violence. The Left in the US has to be distinguished from the Liberals. I see myself as a Liberal, not a leftist, nor right wing. I try and seperate my brain from these pre-modernist ideologies. Both facism and communism have been tried and have failed miserably ussually for the same reasons. Mankind is a funky species which cannot be easily pigeon-holed and it will all surprise us, which I guess is what makes life interesting. Keep your posts coming they are a breath of fresh air.

In my view the fact that Hamas decide to participate in the election is great first step in the long process of establishing a democratic political system in Palestine. let us keep in mind, that many of the Jewish terrorist organization came in and join the political process. To me and to many Palestinians we do believe that there were Jewish terrorist organizations that formed the intial Israeli army. Let us not make all of the militias in Israel as guardian angles and admit for a change that Israel was not born pure white and made in heaven. The agenda for Likud is no different from the agenda of Hamas. The first want to throw the Palestinians out and the other want to throw the Jews out... it is that simple. More over, there is within the Israel parliment and government extreme religious Jewish organizations that their agenda and value system is no different from Hamas. If you accept these organization within your political system, then we too have to accept Hamas as part of the political process. The most important thing for both Palestinians and Israel that there is an open forum where ideas and platform compete, without the use of the guns. As for Talibans, be sure this will never happen. The religious values of Hamas is no different from the religious community in Jerusalem. So why is it alright for Israel to have a religious communities and is not right for Palestinians to have their own religious community. Keep in mind that when it comes to moral and social values, Islam and Judiasm comes very close. Only if we recognise the right of others will we ever over come the hatred and racism that we see posted. Let us not deprive the other of our human values. Let Hamas give Fatah a run for their money, after all Fatah is so full of corruption that Hamas won not because of suicide bombing, but because it was looked at as clean and not corrupt and they are clean and not corrupt, like Fatah. Salam/Shalom.

Mark: I did't forget the Spanish conquests: I clearly marked "Argentina" together with the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zeeland. With the exception of Argentina, Uruguay and Costa Rica, in Latin American societies the Spaniard settlers and their descendantes did not displace the natives, but exploited them and the majority of the present population is of mixed Spanish/native/African origin. This is a different pattern from the USA, Canada, Australia. Yes, all these colonial ventures happened at the time when Europeans thought they could claim, plunder and conquer every place outside Europe. Zionism happened later (XX century) when this mentality was begining to be questioned. However, Zionism was not created to plunder some non-European natives, but to build a Jewish homeland that would serve as a refuge for persecuted Jews. When this persecution reached genocidal levels under nazism, other options of Jewish resistance or coexistence were destroyed together with the six million dead. The need for a national refuge was real. Unfortunately, the zionists were NOT claiming an uninhabited land for the future homeland. They were mistaken in this, the land was inhabited and these inhabitants were not going to release it without a fight. Zionists in Europe were not aware of this, but Ben Gurion, Zhabotinsky all zionist leaders on the ground knew it. From here onwards we have the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. There is no mistery in this tragic history: Jews and Arabs just reacted as anybody else would have reacted in their same situation. My claim is that what's done it's done, we cannot change history, so Israelis & Palestinians have to reconcile, look towards the future and be pragmatic.

giles , can you let me in on the secret how you can see from melbourne to israel???????? this faculty is worth asmall fortune , REPLY SOON

A few posters here (mostly Arab) have hastened to declare disengagement a loss for Israel, that will eventually in their mind lead to dissolution and and end for Israel. These posters clearly live in a world of fantasies and I would caution them against their sky high dreams. The matter of fact is that after Israel?s exit, Gaza will remain isolated from the disputed territories in the west for some years, with the threat of total ban on importation of Palestinian labor to Israel by the year 2008 (as voiced by the Israel?s Foreign Minister) and I doubt that Egypt will open its borders wide for the Palestinians. In strategic terms it will mean that Israel will be hailed by the world community (i.e Western democracies, as no one else, including Arab countries gives a damn about either Palestine or Israel) and will be able to go ahead with annexation of portions of the disputed territories and, once anti-terrorism fence is build, will leave Palestinians to their devices. For Palestinians, it will mean bottled up Gaza where Hamas fights it out with the PA and a further fractured areas of disputed territories which Israel chooses to cede. So it will remain to be seen whose loss disengagement will play out to be.

Sounds very reasonable but your point of view is very far from representing the vast majority of Arabs. In addition, if you truly want peace based on mutual freedom and dignity the you need to understand the following non-negotiable points. 1. The source of the Jewish claim to the land of Israel is the Bible. It was given by G-d to the Jewish people as an eternal inheritance through Abraham, Issac and Jacob. This is accepted by millions of people all over the world and is even confirmed in the Koran. The Jews never gave up their claim and with great self sacrifice maintained their connection to it over thousands of years of exile. All of the areas in question are saturated with Jewish history going back thousands of years. It can therefore never be considered 'occupied territory' for being under Jewish control. 2. While G-d allowed others to control the land for many years he has given it back to the Jewish people with open miracles at a great cost to Jewish life in defensive wars against a people that wanted to destroy us. This land is an open gift from G-d and vital for Jewish security and cannot be given away. When both Jews and Arabs understand the real source of the connection between the Jewish people and Israel then true peace based on mutual freedom and dignity between two peoples will not be far behind.

This is really a great phrase,Giles. But thats what happens when they are thinking about their adversary and imagining the worst.The defence mode is on and attack may be the soup de jour.On the other hand...who knows. Just a note about the extremists and mental institutions. I think that its very possible in the zealots need to recruit more zealots,that people otherwise meant for mental institutions,would find a home on the wingiest of wings in the extremist camp. This neglect by the eager recruiters to not screen these people better leaves them alone responsible for their actions. This is the danger.

The Jews have had 2000 years of experience dealing with the enemies! We know what they are like!

"There is an ethos that is peculiar to the region; moderates tend to falter when confronted with extremists. They are so much in love with the idea that their own, even if he is clearly acting against the best interest of the group, is in some mysterious ways worth understanding." - Jean-Luc Ngarambe It is not just in religion. It is a tendency of moderates everywhere to seek moderate and reasonable solutions and actions. Thus they are never capable of understanding just how dangerous extremists are. We have seen this here in the United States as moderate Republicans and democrats failed to understand just how rabid the Republican right is, and have failed to oppose them, feeling that they would ultimately become moderates like themselves. Now we have a totally unnecessary war training terrorists, killing Americans, and the extremists are demanding total control of our society. "The question is still how would it be possible to evacuate settlements in the West Bank, that was historically the heartland of the ancient Eretz Israel without sparking a civil war?" - Jean-Luc Israel must decide what it is to be. The modern nation created by Zionists in the 20th century, or a nation of people who think, that they have a right to expel or exterminate the untermench so that they can take their libensraum.

"The extremist settlers have begun their offensive against our police & army. This insurrection must be nipped at the bud by the use of maximum force." - Asher Ben-Ami After 30 years of being given total license to engage in any criminal activity they desired, the settlers and their supporters are not going to settle for anything less than forcing Israel to jack boot them. A shame really that it should come to this.

I agree with Mark Lincoln. Ben Israel seems to be expecting a fratricide.

"First of all, they are not the majority. And second of all, they are not sane." - PS Sane means having a healthy mind, or the actions of a sound mind, or, lastly, able to anticipate and appraise the effect of one's actions. As the religious right in Israel, or anywhere else, is incapable of moderating their behavior, or anticipating the consequences of their impulsive actions, it is impossible to consider them sane. They are often encouraged and supported by Conservative governments. Indeed, they are often given total license by Conservative governments such as the Likud of Ariel Sharon, or the Houses of Saud and Bush; they ultimately embarrass and vex those governments with their insane behavior. Thankfully, they seldom are a majority, for if they were the majority of humanity, we would still be living in caves, grunting instead of speaking, and living as savages instead of sapient men.

""The USA, Canada, Argentina, Australia, New Zealand were build up by transplanting a whole new population and displacing the native inhabitants. - roberto Don't forget the Spanish conquests. . . Were we not lucky our nations were carved out of the indigenous populations before Hitler and Tojo made such behavior socially unacceptable roberto?

"Chanukah is coming early this year. ;-)" - Zealot But Sharon doesn't look Greek to me! ;-)

"Yes, it seems a confrontation is brewing, but the regime will fall in the end. There is simply too much opposition to this dastardly plan." - Ben Israel Is this a declaration of Civil War?

your last post was encouraging. Dont you think the palestinian media should stop their incitement. It is a shame to brainwash another generation to hate !! Israel released 400 from jails last month and now re-settling the jews from gaza...what has p.a. done?

..and the removal of Jews from the Jewish land of Gaza is wrong! No wonder the enemies applaud that decision!

While observing that passions so elevated as to bar reason, the point must be made that it is barred by psych. ethics to label a group "the lunatic fringe" if it is their belief system behind their transgressions. Yes, the extremists on the right are behaving badly, and some commit transgressions in the name of their cause. As they cannot ethically be committed to mental institutions, the destination for the most extreme is properly the prison. As for the dearth of blue ribbons, there would certainly be more if the opponants of redeployment did not remove them. As this too often involves property damage, they are best reminded: If they induce unneccesary expense on the part of another, they have stolen from the other. As the adversary enters the dreams of men, the propensity for evil increases proportionally.

There is a world of difference between the Israeli protests and Arab extremism.

i know i'm not alone.I'm contacting the aclu, my president and all my representives.to close the gush is not democratic.There are many americans there.G-d bless the heros.We watched today as the soldiers grabbed the freedom fighters from the hotel.Hold on my brothers we are with you.Shame on the israeli government,wanting to give the head-cutters a home.the ultimate dhimmitude.

Dear Mr. Sensation, While I hardly ever agree with anything you post, I continue to read the things you say so as to stay abreast of what people across the sprectrum are saying and feeling. Could I just ask of you to not end all your posts with the sign off: "PEACE". Very few of us believe that you desire a peace acceptable to both nations- not to mention that it sounds unbelievably lame. Please keep posting, but lay off the personal branding.

"We are working to bring about a civil society, where the rule of law is supreme and where leaders are accountable to the people and not the other way around." Maybe that is what you are working toward, but Hamas just won 30 percent of your recent elections. Enjoy the Palestinian Taliban!

The extremist settlers have begun their offensive against our police & army. This insurrection must be nipped at the bud by the use of maximum force. There is no difference between Palestinian terrorists and Jewish terrorists and both should be treated with the same amount of violent response from our security forces. Israelis kill Israelis. Our police killed 13 Israelis during the 2000 riots in the North. Israeli settler extremist terrorists are no different and should receive the same treatment. Shooting the 13 Israelis to death in the North stopped the riots in Um Al Fahm. The same response in the Gaza Strip & W. Bank against settler terrorists will stop them.

Its sick how Jews are being rounded up and sent from their homes. If this was being done to the Arabs the whole world would be up in Arms. But as its only a handful of stupid Jews then who cares. I say NO to disengagement, NO NO NO. The Arabs will never be happy until they push the Jews in to the sea so we need to stay strong and not move an inch.

I have had a look at that website and what a load of evil lies that spouts out. If you would have ever been to Israel proper you would know that there are hundreds of Arab towns in Israel lying next to the Israel kibbutzim and moshavim. The Kibbutzim and Moshavim were built on purchased barren land. So stop with your evil lying propoganda.

Claude it sounds that you are a teeny weeny upset today. I must admit that the day didn't start to well for you right wing loonies, but hey look at it this way. When you look back, this day will seem like a good day for you. Things will only get worse. Or do you think for one moment, that Israel will go down for people like you?

I did not send a post with such a title. What do your really think? Can you change the way people feel? Do you expect us to see Jews against Jews and stay quiet ? Haarezt! you do not understand one thing: We love too much Israel! Eretz Israel has a very special place in our hearts and souls and we are not going to let it go.. Sincerely, do you think it is easy to see Jews out of their homes, while HAMMAS, JIHAD and the other Palestinians terrorists and their ANTI-SEMITIC friends are dancing, celebrating?? Haarezt, you know that HAMMAS, JIHAD AND THE terrorists know that they have won and they know now they can get everything they want: THEY JUST HAVE TO KILL JEWS!! It is also disgusting the way you demonize the settlers! You will never will do the same thing to the palestinians terrorists! Sorry Haarezt, I love to much Israel for being such a " good Jew" according to your definition. Please delete the post#44 Toda raba Claude

...to give you a platform from which to explain how much of a mensch you really are! :-) Keep up the good work Sami... We'll have a beer someday,hopefully with the likes of Proud Zionist and anyone else who wants to celebrate a new relationship.

They are unable to understand that the palestinans will not give up untill ALL of Israel is theirs. Untill that day you can carry on appeasing them, they will only respond with a larger wave of terrorisim. They are degenerate imoral boors ( look at the labour leadership race). They are spurned on only by money and power, they have no principles apart from hate towards the religious jews who keep this nation alive. Appeasement never works look at history if you want thousands of instances. It will buy you time in the short term but cause ramifications of clossal proportions in the long term. Dont listen to these over optimistic people, there very view is flawed. If you give Gaza away and all the west bank at a cost of 67 billion dollars thats over half the GDP of Israel, then the uncontrolled terrorists who are ellected and even say them selfes they want All of Israel will stop terror. Yes ok then the lunatic hospital is that direction, the direction of the palestinans. Haretz if you Dare not publish the article while calling the settlers who are on the verge of being chuked out of there houses to be given to people who have butchered there children and still dont use violent incidents ''lunitic extremists''. Then you WILL publish this article.

LL THIS WILL BE POSSIBLE WHEN ISRAEL JOINS THE EU..." In your dreams Harris.

Haaretz, please do not put words into my mouth!! I DID NOT WRITE THIS LAST POST!!! PLease, if what I wrote is not policatilly correct and I am not a " good Jew" for your standard, it is fine with me! Just do not publish it! Stick to your policies, but do not put words into people's mouth. Everyone on this forum knows what I think should be done to Hammas, Jihad and the other palestinian terrorists: KILL ALL OF THEM AND SEND THEM TO HELL TO MAKE COMPANY TO THEIR FORMER LEADER ARAFAT. Claude

Israel wouldn't be let into the EU. Your human rights record is worse than Turkey's. Anyway soon Israel won't even get preferential trading terms from the EU.

right burke ALL THIS WILL BE POSSIBLE WHEN ISRAEL JOINS THE EU IF IT STILL EXISTS AFTER THE END OF THIS YEAR. THEN WE CAN LIKE IRELAND GET AN ENORMOUS FREE HANDOUT . then israel will get the highest per capita income in the whole world!!! you know an idiot like you should check his facts before putting his foot in his mouth!!!!!

Personally, I took on the Palestinian leadership especially Arafat long before it became fashionable and we took on the leadership for reforms and transparancey. We took on suicide bombing long before anyone else, including the US government. We established dialogue with Israelis and American Jewish community, and we took on and organizing peace movements among the Palestinians and will have a big conference in Palestine, this Christmas. We are supporting peace movement from within Israel and the American Jewish community, and sooner than later we will take to US courts settlers and their sponsors. It is imperative that both side understand that neither one will go away, notwithstanding what the die hard Zionist within Israel and the US believe. Israel is here to stay and so is Palestine. We are working to educate people on ending the occupation as the source of all problems, notwithstanding what some die hard Zionist believe. We are working to bring about a civil society, where the rule of law is supreme and where leaders are accountable to the people and not the other way around.

The Jews in gaza control 40% of the land. there are 8,000 of them and 1.2 million Palestinians on the rest. The Palestinians are mostly refugees from southern Israel who were ethnically cleansed in 1948-49. Gaza has been run by the Israeli military since 1967. The PA has garbage collection rights. Israel decides everything else including who gets to have their house demolished. Israel has killed over 1500 Palestinians in Gaza since 2000. Gaza is Israel's shame.

How does it feel to rewrite history? Truly you need to get educated.Check your facts-

"It's not disengagement. It's the fall of aparteid." Like the term "genocide," the word aparteid has been revised by Judeo-phobic Leftists in an effort to diminish the crimes against the Jews. Aparteid, which means to keep people apart can only be praticed within, not ouside, a sovereign nation. Therefore, the only analogy that can be made is with Israel's Arab citizens who represent 20% of Israel's population. Arab citizens include teachers, members of the military, doctors, etc., etc.

Arafat was insulted because he was unable or reluctant to crack down on his extremists. Now Sharon has to confront his own bunch of extremists, he must be commanded for his reaction this time but a question still remains: will the Sharon government be able to repeat it? Even if I hope so, I doubt it. There is an ethos that is peculiar to the region; moderates tend to falter when confronted with extremists. They are so much in love with the idea that their own, even if he is clearly acting against the best interest of the group, is in some mysterious ways worth understanding. The Palestinians have shown that trait since the beginning of the conflict during the first Aliyah, while Jews were more apt to conceal the same problem trough cooptation of the worst ideas by those representing the mainstream and by hasbarra. The question is still how would it be possible to evacuate settlements in the West Bank, that was historically the heartland of the ancient Eretz Israel without sparking a civil war?

The Arabs in the Gaza strip have been under their own rule for years. The Jews there have farmed and lived and been terrorized for years. Try reading an accurate newspaper not an openly flamingly biased one and maybe you'll be educated.

When you in Israel eventually have peace with your neighbours you really should spend a bit of money bringing your country up to first World standards you think you deserve. It would be nice to see a decent road system- imagine what you could have done with the hundreds of millions pumped into gaza for the last 20 years. I would also like to see Israel being able to feed its poor kids- it's distressing to be asked to make a contribution every time I log on to Haaretz. You could spend money on environmental protection and on delivering a modern sewage system as well. What about giving a lick of paint to the shabby houses of Tel Aviv? Imagine what you could do with peace. Maybe your kids wouldn't have to waste 3 years of being brainwashed either.

A Mother: Do you think that, for one minute, the Palestinians are going to be satisfied to be crammed into worthless Judean desert when the fertile land is in Israel? You give them the right of return to the so-called Palestinian State, and, I can assure you that very shortly thereafter, they (the Palestinian refugees) will be flooding into Israel.

Irish Sensation: I'm not angry with Azzam, I just excercised my right to criticize his opinions. I took issue with him for his posts on Yossi Sarid, which in my view are demagogic and sectarian. My critique was not hysterical, but based on reason and argumentation. I hope he does not reply with vitriol, since his posts tend to be full of anger. Anger leads nowhere. But I do agree with him (and with many others) that the end of the occupation in Gaza may be the turning point marking begining of the end of the ocupation of the WBank. All those who wish the best possible peace agreement between Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs should join hands and make alliances, not to attack each other with sectarian name callings, as Azzam often does. Azzam claims to speak for Palestinian refugees, but these refugees are more pragmatic than him: they prefere an "imperfect solution" to their plight over a 100 years struggle to "liberate all holyland from zionism". As shown by polls taken by a Palestinian polster named Shikiki in the West Bank: close to 90% of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon choose to be resettled in the new Palestinian state or given compensation, only about 10% insist of returning within Israel proper. They (correctly) demand a right of return, but recognize that the implementation of this right must be negociated with Israel and cannot take the form of "every refugee returning to his/her village". Acceptance of this maximalistic right of return cannot be imposed on Israeli Jews as a condition to issue them certificates of "no-racism", as Azzam and other posters constantly do. Pragmatism is the key, angry self righteousness is a futile waist of time.

Sami,I really dont want to tell you what to do,but feel its of the upmost importance. If you are the seed of the moderation that you claim to be,instead of sitting and watching the ruckus going on between jews,you should take this time to tell the Palestinian people that these jews have got it right. They are making moves to peace but we (the Palestinians) could screw it up with one bomb,one bullet. Now it is imperative that moderate Palestinians show there face,for if the extreme elements of the Palestinians are allowed to rule the day there is no peace. There is no road map.There is no George W Bush telling Israel what to do. At that point Sharon reverts to warrior. You want to help? No need to write here anymore,Sami spend your time wisely.

Research Guide to the P-I Conflict: www.robincmiller.com/melink3f.htm

AZZAM, WRITE AN ESSAY SHOWING THE COMPARISON BETWEEN APARTHEID IN SOUTH AFRICA AND THE ALLEGATIONS REGARDING APARTHEID FOR MUSLIMS IN ISRAEL TRY AND CONDENSE IT TO 500 WORDS!!!!! YOU CAN QUOTE THE QURAN AT ANY TIME IN THE ESSAY!!!!!

Israel politicians, Labor and Likud and beyond them leaderships of the Zionist movements, rabbis, and members of US Congress have to take responsibility of the death of Jews and Arabs who died for no reason whatsover, other than to prolong the occupation. The decision to prolong the occupation and the resulting death and destruction on both community has to be the responsibilty of the Israeli and American leadership who have blood ( Jewish and Arab) on their hands. They knew that sooner than later the occupation will have to come to an end, and they knew all along that the settlements and the ideological and religious reasons behind the settlements was nothing but a fraud. All of these decision makers have to take responsibility for all those who dies on both side. The occupation is responsible for all of the sufferings of the people of Israel and Palestine, and now more problem with settlers who all along were told that it is G-d who commanded that they go out and steal whatever they can and the state will cover for them. The failure of Israel politicians is as bad as the failure of Arab politicians. It is too bad for both people, Palestinians and Israelis.

Azzam said he isn't going to rest till ALL of the "Holy Land" (ie, all of Israel) is liberated (ie, Jew-free) and he falsely compared a people who have constantly offered peace and been met with terror (the Israelis) to White South Africans under Apartheid. We accepted partition in '47, the Palestinians launched a war. We offered peace after the attacks in '67, the Palestinians said "no recognition (they wouldn't recognize us till '88!!!). We offered peace in 2000, they took out their bombs.

"For the sake of Israel , for the sake of the Palestinians, for the sake of the poor American tax payers, for the sake of Jews around the world, for the sake of peace and good relations among people of the world, the Israeli occupation and all that comes with it, from settlements, from checkpoints, the Israeli military occupation, must come to an end." Yes, then we can return to the "peace" we had in '48, when the Palestinians, along with 5 Arab armies, attacked a people who survived the Holocaust. We can return to the peace we had in the twenties, when the Palestinians massacred in Hebron. Or how about the peace of '64, three years before any "occupation," when the Palestinians formed the Palestinian LIBERATION Org. What were they trying to "liberate," Sami? Yesterday Hezbollah killed an Israeli solider. Are they also "occupied," or are they just poisoned by extreme Islamic rhetoric (like all too many Palestinians)?

Anti-semites can barely contain their glee at the thought that one Jew might kill another. Their morality is certainly shining at this moment. A few thoughts: Palestinians kill each other constantly. Do you know how many Palestinians were killed at the hands of other Palestinians for being "collaboraters"? Would it shock you if I said the number is more than 200 in the last two intifadas? Does this also make you happy? Not one settler has killed one Israeli, but just yesterday a Hezbollah Islamic terrorist killed an Israeli soldier. Yet it is the settlers who are the demons? As usual, your anti-Semitism is exposed.

PZ- It's far easier to blame the actions of Hezbollah on that knackered old canard, irrational antisemitism, than on the fact that Israel invaded Lebanon and killed 17,000 people in the process as recently as 1982. You may have forgotten the SLA and the things that went on in the Israeli prison in Khiam but a lot of southern Lebanese don't. Hezbollah will keep going until there's a comprehensive peace in the Middle East including a full withdrawal from the Golan.

Nelson Mandela. who is certainly familiar with apartheid, wrote the following: " Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children." Here's the link so you can read the entire thing. I know you want to: http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/mandella.html

For the sake of Israel , for the sake of the Palestinians, for the sake of the poor American tax payers, for the sake of Jews around the world, for the sake of peace and good relations among people of the world, the Israeli occupation and all that comes with it, from settlements, from checkpoints, the Israeli military occupation, must come to an end.

The settlers have finally turned on their own and the Israeli public in general is getting the picture. The news from "The territories" suddenly have become NEWS. Not just something to shake your head about and turn to the cartoons, but real NEWS. There is a lunatic fringe right that is behaving like the worse of the worst and now against the state and the army of Israel. Soon they'll be inside Israel proper cutting down trees, poisoning sheeps and wells, attacking farmers, cutting electic wires and this without the protection of the IDF. The attempt to put them far away from civilization, in groups, will fail. They will be all over Israel. Now enjoy them, you certainly deserve them. Is that a smell of coffee...?

Everyone has a right to happiness. Azzam is not pushing for bloodshed. He's not pushing for further escalation. He's belated at the fact that the settlers true colors are being exposed, and is making a point of why it is very pertinent Israel and the Palestinians complete final status that guarantees a viable Palestinian state. There is no way Sharon can continue delaying any further withdrawals. The settler terrorists will just buy time and re-arm. I applaud the Israeli soldiers for attempting to rescue the lynched Palestinian child. Lebanon went bezerk when Israel left. Palestinians have the same right don't they? The only difference is that Israel didn't populate Lebanon with numerou settlements and let 8,000 people control 1.5 million people like Israel did in Gaza. Let this be a lesson learned. Occupations never work. Everyone knew it was going to get ugly, but not this bad. I'm worried we haven't seen nothing yet from these enraged lunatics. I pray the Palestinians exercise restraint and just let the Israelis deal with these lunatics. However, Israel has to realize that if these lunatic settlers continue further provocations, lynchings of Palestinians, etc., then just as Israel always states it has the right to defend itself and launch "retaliatory attacks", the Palestinian musts be allowed to defend themselves also. And Israel knows if the Palestinians are not restrained, these settlers would have been crying for Israel to usher them out ASAP. BRAVO! Justice is finally being served to these spoiled Israeli terrorists. PEACE.

"Hezbollah renewed its attacks and provided a taste of things to come during the pullout;" Hezbollah killed an Israeli soldier from Lebanon yesterday. For all those of you who claim that terrorism is a result of the "occupation," why is Hezbollah still killing? Lebanon is free and clear of any Israeli presence. Why does Hezbollah even exist? The Islamic hatred of Jews (and Christians) in the Middle East has nothing to do with occupation, everything to do with fanaticism.

Where are you guys living... in the Dark Ages? Really, yes a lot of orange nowadays but so what? Let it be the start of a new day with our eyes on Peace. If you want to feel a little heroic thats fine but do not do this on the backs of others...pushing 10 year olds into the rushhour traffic when hardworking people try to get home with all that orange....bah!! Maccabim? ...you better get yurself checked on Jerusalem Syndrome there seems to be an epedemic of sorts under you guys.

Azzam Im glad you brought that up. The fact is that Gaza is a gift. A gift of peace,given at a huge price to the Israeli people. Dont laugh at it Azzam because the next move is yours. (Hezbollah by the way is making a huge mistake,or maybe they are not,maybe they really want to disrupt this peace possibility just like the Jewish extremists do. What do you want Azzam? You can be whatever you want.You want to be a savage,we will treat you like one.You want to be a politician we will negotiate.But dont take us for granted,Azzam,because that would be as naive as your comments)

Azzam, you did not get it? There is no back to the Holy land. The state of Israel is a international recognized state, where next door there will be built a Palestinian state. It is time you start putting your energies in being constructive and help build that new state instead of all that raving an ranting. There will be a right of return, but to the new Palestinian state.

My apologies Azzam, you are even better than I credited you with, that was FOUR minutes flat, NOT 6. Maths is obviously not my strong subject, I blame it on the occupation.

Not bad Azzam. Within 6 minutes you read, digested & responded to TWO articles from today's Talkback. BTW as a S. African I must point out that if you wish to Hijack the old S. African regime's policy at least get the spelling correct. THat's APARTHEID not HIDE. They never HID anything

Sharon allowed too much time for the pullout and now we see the planning that has gone into the settler's responses. I fear the coming months will see much more violence if Israel doesn't move forward with the peace process. Haaretz reported that Sharon has reniged on the handover of Gaza this week. One more delay that will be viewed as a win for the settlers. Rhetoric is cheap. It is tme for Sharon to show he is committed to stopping the violence from the settlers and to move forward with turning Gaza over to the PA. Anything else and the disengagement begins to unravel.

"the lunatic fringe of the right showed its true face." the settlers have been indulged by all of the Jewish parties in Israel for the last 38 years. Literally tens of billions of taxpayers and American aid dollars have been diverted from welfare progammmes to establish the greatest white elephant in Israeli and Jewish history - the settler project. You now see the results- Israeli kids fall behind in international schooling comparisons and even the Haarety website carries ads asking readers to sponsor meals for poor kids living inside the green Line. You still don't have a decent railway system. It is a bit rich of you now to call the settlers lunatics. You have indulged and supported them with your tax money since 1967.

Surely the time has come to make Gaza a closed military zone, and only allow residents entry. With only a month and a bit to go, why does anyone else need to be there? If you think this is bad, look forward to the evacuation of Hebron in a couple of years ;) The settlers are angry because they know that they are in a minority and will eventually lose. We will go back to the Green Line (including in the Golan) and there will be a Palestinian state. And when that happens, the Likud will shrivel up and die, because without a war to fight, it will have no support.

Up until now I have not had the pleasure of answering one of your postings. You see, I am rarely attracted to what you have to say. but this time your letter was first and I realized the idiocy of your words, and thus a reply. You wrote "the first step towards the fall of the last aparthide. Yes, Gaza, then WB, then the Holy Land." This was quite a line, creative, very original. Let us lift our knives and start dissecting. The last apartheid? curious, first there is absolutely no justification to calling the situation here apartheid. It sounds good and there are mny ignorant people who make the shallow gesture of repeating this rubbish. Next, "then the holy land" this is a gem. So you consider all of Israel the un-greater to be occupied territory, so there is no chance of peace and thus no reason for Israel to make any compromises or to stop killing Palestinian fighters. Thank you youhave cleared up your thought process for us. As for "Evil can still tirumph" well sure it can, the Palestinians are coming outof this with some real-estate, a hot house for further acts of evil. You have chosen to support evil, have you bought any Al Zaqari Greatist Hits videos, share them with your friends?

I love Israeli journalists with their neutral prose style: "lunatic fringe of the right" or my personal favorite which is essentially an axiom by now: " the sane majority". First of all, they are not the majority. And second of all, they are not sane.

You probably didn't read the post I wrote to you in yesterday's forum on Yossi Sarid, so I'll re-posted. It is applicable to today's discussion. HAARETZ: PLEASE POST IT !!! The USA, Canada, Argentina, Australia, New Zealand were build up by transplanting a whole new population and displacing the native inhabitants. All these states were built in the XVII-XIX centuries bu colonial powers and the natives were not strong enough to resist the process. Historical zionism was a similar (not identical phenomenon) and happened at a late historical period (XX century), when the natives (Palestinians) had developed a more modern national self conciousness (also stimulated by their confrontation with zionism). As a defense of zionism and to differentiate it from colonian settlement, zionism lacked a colonial patron and the bulk of zionists coming to Mandate Palestine was made up of refugees escaping persecution that escalated into genocide. Nobody else took Jews escaping from nazism in the late 30's or 40's. Still, zionism displaced and disposessed the Palestinian population, which was not guilty of the hell on earth imposed on European Jews. This is a historical injustice that no ammounts of hasbara can hide. It is one of the tragedies of the XX century. But what is done is done. The point is where we go from now: do you want justice or revenge? Your posts show too much angry rhetoric against Jews (not only zionists), too much self rightousness. Now you fail to distinguish between the Historical Zionism of the settlement pre-state period, now embodied by the WB & G settlers in a petrified and degenerated form, and the pragmatic type of zionism represented by Sarid, which is more like Israeli nationalism. It is true that Sarid (and the zionist left) is not beyond criticism and that utterances of the demographic threat are demagogic and racist. But just as Sarid has made moral blunders, he has had the courage to denounce the evil of the occupation, he is also on record in denouncing discrimination against Israeli Arabs. He is a man of contradictions, just as many other players in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Nobody that is politically active has an absolutely contradiction-free 100% high moral ground, so ignoring Sarid's contradictions and foccusing ONLY on attacking him and accusing the zionist left of being like Gush Emunim, just shows you as a demagogue, not better than demagogues among zionists who find evil done in the Palestinian side and argue that all are the same. Don't tell me that Hamas or other players in the Palestinian side are free of racism and other ills. We are dealing with real people, not with saints or demons. We need to make aliances, not to bow to futile sectarianisms. You should learn from Khalid and Ibrahim. Come down from your olympus. Israel will have to compensate the Palestinain refugees, there is no way out of this, but this compensation must be a part of a negociated settlement. With sufficient good will and creativity, a solution can be found that accomodates justice for the refugees and national rights for Israeli Jews ans Palestinian Arabs. True, after Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, a lot will remain to be done to make it a state that serves equally all its citizens, Jews and Arabs, but demanding the abolition of such a state as the ONLY non-racist solution and peddling the autoritarian imposition of a "single democratic state" in the Hollyland, against the wishes of 99% of Israeli Jews, is not seeking justice but vengeance.

http://zena.secureforum.com/Znet/meastwatch/diary.htm www.caabu.org/press/articles/muna_diry_4_October.html www.cafearabica.com/updates/diary18.html Diving with a Splash: http://desip.igc.org/Diving.html Water Shortage on the West Bank: http://waternet.rug.ac.be/jordan_river/shortage/1998.htm Palestinian tragedy: www.palestiniantragedy.com/zionistterror01.html

Chanukah is coming early this year. ;-)

Sharon's regime is panicking, seeing everything spinning out of control. The declaration of a closed military zone will mobilize thousands of opponents of the Sharon/Peres regime. Everyone in Israel sees all the cars with orange strips, while the campaign to get supporters of the Sharon/Peres clique to put on blue ribbons has failed. Yes, it seems a confrontation is brewing, but the regime will fall in the end. There is simply too much opposition to this dastardly plan.

actually yesterday I translated this from a book written by a friend and a Palestinian. Muna Hamzeh-Muhaisen. Here`s the facts on a website: www.doublestandards.org/hamzeh1.html and many more settlements will be fortified!Just imagine..

you celebrate. and dream on about the 'whole' holy land...

There is just one simple observation to be made: it's just a very short amount of time that mainstream Israelis and the authorities have really come into contact with the settlers and, already, they are nothing short of declaring war against them... The Palestinians have been living with them for the past 38 years. I have to marvel at their patience.

like the ones last time on Tali it should be clear how willing Sharon is to make peace. If anyone considers the way the Palestinians live in the OT, well... , right Steven-you know exactly and even better what I mean! Only that you are not human enough to imagine you are a member of other peoples, you even don`t try to imagine other peoples suffering. You only see yours, right Steven?

If this leads to a war,you can see Hezb Allah and the West Bank are hotting up, you people are going to get a nasty surprise. You will have nobody to blame but yourselves but in true fashion you will blame everybody except yourselves. What statement have you made that could possibly be interpreted as wanting anything except death and destruction?

I think the Israelis should celebrate the disengagement and should not be afraid to call it what it is: the first step towards the fall of the last aparthide. Yes, Gaza, then WB, then the Holy Land. I wish if Edward Said were alive to see this. But lets not hold our hopes to hi, there are many lessons in history showing that evil can still triumph.