Abbas: End of settlement freeze would end direct peace talks
In letters to Obama, Medvedev and Ashton, PA president warns that newly-launched peace negotiations will fail if Israel does not extend settlement freeze, due to expire on September 26.
By Avi Issacharoff and Barak Ravid Tags: Israel news Middle East peace Mahmoud Abbas Israel settlementsRenewed Israeli construction in settlements after the end of the construction freeze in late September would bring the newly-launched direct negotiations to a grinding halt, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has warned in letters sent to U.S. President Barack Obama, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and the High Representative of the European Union on Foreign Policy, Catherine Ashton. "It's impossible to conduct negotiations alongside settlement construction," wrote Abbas.
The future of the construction freeze in West Bank settlements is expected to become the first significant obstacle facing the Israeli and American governments in the direct talks. The freeze is due to end on September 26, and Prime Minister Netanyahu told Likud ministers on Sunday that the cabinet resolution on ending the freeze on the date will be followed to the letter.
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Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas |
| Photo by: AP |
However, Intelligence Minister Dan Meridor continued last week to promote his initiative to renew construction only in the large settlement blocs set to be annexed to Israel under any foreseeable peace agreement. The construction freeze will continue to be fully applied in isolated settlements such as Itzhar and Itamar. Meridor enjoys the support of Defense Minister Ehud Barak, but fellow members of the forum of seven, ministers Begin, Yishai and apparently Lieberman, are opposed.
The U.S. administration had not yet made an official comment on the Meridor proposal, but senior Israeli officials in contact with senior Washington officials told Haaretz that the Americans did not rule it out. The Americans stressed to their Israeli counterparts that President Obama's position is mainly dependent on Palestinian readiness to accept construction in the large settlement blocs.
Top Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said on Sunday that although the American administration did not commit to the Palestinian Authority that the construction freeze would be renewed after the September deadline, the Palestinians expected the freeze to continue. Erekat said that the Americans implied to the PA that if direct negotiations would restart, it would be easier to convince Israel to extend the construction freeze.
Netanyahu said at Sunday's cabinet meeting that achieving peace with the Palestinians was "difficult, but ... " He said he will arrive at the negotiating table with good will to reach a peace agreement. "I know there's a lot of skepticism after the 17 years that elapsed since the Oslo Accords," Netanyahu said," and the existence of such skepticism is understandable."
The prime minister told the cabinet that he intends to "surprise all the critics and skeptics," but stressed he needed a Palestinian partner to succeed.
"If we find we have a real partner on the Palestinian side, an honest and earnest partner in negotiations that will need both sides to make the necessary steps - not just the Israeli side but also the Palestinian side - if we find we have a partner like that, we can soon reach a historic peace agreement between the two peoples," the prime minister said.
At the cabinet meeting, Netanyahu stressed that any peace agreement will necessitate sustainable and realistic security arrangements, a Palestinian recognition of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people, a resolution to the refugee problem within the borders of the Palestinian state and a Palestinian agreement to announce an end to the conflict.
Next week, after a short holiday in northern Israel, Netanyahu is expected to leave for the Washington summit in which the direct negotiations with the Palestinian Authority will be launched.
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...It may likely be in Israels interest to avoid construction in a settlement if it was due to be evacuated... Aha, something that makes sense I hear from you. By the same token, what is wrong with continued construction in the settlements that will definately be left with Israel? It is a pretty much sensible knowledge which ones will stay, which ones are maybes & which will go. Why did Abbas drag this issue for 9 months. What is his assumptions are, must be all of the freeze? What does it do to Bibi`s opponents within his own ranks, who may want all of the unfreeze but can `hide` behind the legitimate gripes of `right to built` where it is appropriate (settlements that will stay with Israel). What is Abbas calculating for? The dissent within Likud, collapse of the talks and he walks out of it free & clear pointing finger at Israel?
August 23 1929 The Arabs Massacred the Jews Of Hebron . ...While the British Watched. As Iran moves closer to producing nuclear weapons many people are wondering if Israel will attack the Iranian nukes and what/if any role will the United States have. If Israel decides to preemptively strike the Iranian weapons program, they will not be holding their breath waiting to see if the US will help but because the Jewish State learned a long time ago that it cannot rely on anybody but themselves for protection..
The acquisition of territory by war is illegal. The settlements and Israeli civil law in "territories occupied" is illegal, talks or no talks.
Jordan kicked out all the Jews in 1948 and attacked Israel again in 1967. The Jews LEGALLY reclaimed their communities and have developed them ever since.
The only law that gives Israel communities outside the green line is Israeli law. The rest of the world does not agree. Israeli law does not supersede international law.
"Jordan kicked out all the Jews in 1948" Err, kicked out of where, exactly? Certainly not "Israel", because the Jordanian army was very careful never to cross the Partition Lines. "and attacked Israel again in 1967." Note that SDHD is implying (without actually saying) that in 1949 Jordan invaded Israeli territory, when very clearly it did not. "The Jews LEGALLY reclaimed their communities and have developed them ever since." See that sleight-of-hand again? That's right, SDHD went from "Jews" to "Israel" then back to "Jews", even tho' they do not have the same meaning. SDHD does that to hide the fact (and it is fact) that nowhere in that sequence can he find *any* basis for an ISRAELI claim to sovereignty over the West Bank. That's because there is none.
Why not coninuing o build and if land switches o he palestians, they get the benefi of he valued propery.
Abbas won't quit even if the Israelis take over his "presidential" compound. He simply doesn't have the galls or "chutzpah" to break this relationship with his abusive Israeli masters.
In the end, demography will dictate the final outcome.
... there is only a 3 states solution. Gaza to Egypt. West Bank to Jordan. Israel to Israel.
//UNSC Res 1860 Recalling all of its relevant resolutions, including resolutions 242 (1967), 338 (1973), 1397 (2002), 1515 (2003) and 1850 (2008), Stressing that the Gaza Strip constitutes an integral part of the territory occupied in 1967 and will be a part of the Palestinian state,// Both States occupied Palestinian territory as regional powers, trustees for the people of Palestine, per the UN Charter and GC's.
The concerns both sides are making are legitimate at present, Israel's, security arrangements and the Palestinians, construction in the West Bank. However, these are only to be fully understood and developed through direct discussions between the parties. They each have to put themselves in the place of the other in order to comprehend the legitimate concerns, otherwise we can't proceed as good neighbours working together for a peaceful Middle East. This endeavor will have to take a partnership mode rather than adversarial - and we've known the latter too long - what example are you setting for future generations of the region?
...to resolve the Arab Israeli conflict from which it has benefited so much economically and politically, thus the leadership will do all that it can to prevent rational analysis and thinking to usher an accommodation of peaceful coexistence between Arab and Jew, between the Muslim-Arab world and the nation-state of the Jewish people. This latest attempt to place sticks in the weals of the cart of peace is just that, the latest attempt...
How can you talk about the wheels of justice when you are squatting illegally on land belonging to others?
With about half a million Israelis living outside it's 1967 "green-line, armistice-line, borders", no Palestinian negotiator is going to accept an archipelago of disconnected Palestinian islands in the west bank whose air-space, border entry points, electro-magnetic spectrum and water rights will be controlled by Israel.
There are ligitimate security concerns and then there are "security" concerns. This is a phrase employed by Israel to scuttle any advances in questions dealing with borders, refugees, EJ, settlements, air and water rights. Israel will dictate the terms on all of thise questions as necessary for its "security". When the Palestinians refuse, as they should, then netqanyahu will say they, the Palestinians, are being intransigent and refusing to negotiate in good faith. They will turn black into white and white into black in order to expand their land qand dispossession policy. What netqanyahu and his pack of deceivers really want is the same as sharon proposed back in the late 70s and that is a series of disjointed urban semi autonomous areas for Palestinians. What netqanyahu and his gang are hoping for as their goal is the same thing proposed by sharon in the late 70s and that is a series of disconnected urban areas that will be semi-autonomous drowning in a sea of zionist expansionism.
There are ligitimate security concerns and then there are "security" concerns. This is a phrase employed by Israel to scuttle any advances in questions dealing with borders, refugees, EJ, settlements, air and water rights. Israel will dictate the terms on all of thise questions as necessary for its "security". When the Palestinians refuse, as they should, then netqanyahu will say they, the Palestinians, are being intransigent and refusing to negotiate in good faith. They will turn black into white and white into black in order to expand their land qand dispossession policy. What netqanyahu and his pack of deceivers really want is the same as sharon proposed back in the late 70s and that is a series of disjointed urban semi autonomous areas for Palestinians. What netqanyahu and his gang are hoping for as their goal is the same thing proposed by sharon in the late 70s and that is a series of disconnected urban areas that will be semi-autonomous drowning in a sea of zionist expansionism.
It seems that Israel will set the terms for the upcoming discussions. It has kept up a propganda campaign for the past month or so on how much it wants peace and is ready for direct talks. That's its line for the public. Yet, within hours after announcing that they will enter into the talks first of Sept., we hear the gasbag already expressing his sceptism on one hand and dictating what the opening aernda will be and that there is little if any liklihood that the settlement expansion freeze will be extended beyond 26/9. The Palestinins have presented the Quartet with a detailed plan whose positions are in accord with the position of the Quartet. Israel has only made clear that this government is not obligated by any previous agreements. It actually has the arrogance to demand of all parties that their intentions be viewed as sincere while they are negotiated and taking in more land for their settlements and dispossessing more Palestinians from Arab neighbourhoods of EJ. These talks will fail and netanyahu will blame it on the Palestinians whom he will claim are unprepared to meet Israel's security needs and to recognise it as not only as a sovereign nation but the state of the Jewish people. Guess where that puts the 20% of its population that is not Jewish?
THAT ABOUT RAPPS IT UP. That is what they will get and no more. If the tlks fail good on Netanyahu or else out he GOES.
But there's really not much to save. He lost every credibility by agreeing to renew talks without getting anything in return. If I were palestinian I would no longer vote for him I'm afraid
His name is Abbas.
The freeze does not make any sense. The more Arabs will lost land, the more they will have an interest in negociating with Israel.
Interesting theory
All those buildings will be an appropriated compensation for the 60 years the Palestinians suffer from Israel. Then, the borders should be imposed at 1967.
If you think the buildings will be left intact .........you better bone up on your history of what really happened when they left Gaza ......
Idiots. Abbas purposely waited until Israel's settlement freeze was over to agree with direct talks, on condition that the settlement freeze continues. And they say there are no pre-conditions to talks. What a sad joke.
...Mr. Abbas is likely to come up with is a refusal to accept Israel's right to be, to exist as the nation-state of the Jewish people. And in store is a whole host of additional pre-conditions to negotiations without pre-conditions. So, why has Abbas accepted Mr. Clinton's invitation to attend peace talks in good faith without pre-conditions...??!!
of those who support continued settlement activity. By law and international consensus, all settlements built on 'disputed' land are illegal. Which part of illegal is difficult to understand. You cannot continue to steal other people's land and expect them to sit down at the table and thank you for it. For those of you who cry, 'build baby build', do you consider yourselves law abiding citizens? If so, how do you justify such blatant disregard for the law? It is this attitude that makes the world look at Israel with contempt. Has the Israeli government become so morally bankrupt that they don't see that they are the ones delegitimizing their own state?
Your argument starts with the false assumption that there was a country in the West Bank these people had at one time, called `Palestine` (there was not), and that this West Bank always belonged to them (it belonged to the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan...if you don`t believe me, look at an atlas!) So, they are hankering after, and blubbering about, a fictitious entity which, from a biblical point of view, was Greater Israel for a very long time. Having said this, I support them having a State but they have to understand they are not exactly in a strong bargaining position historically and they need to compromise.
The key factor is what can you get away with. Israel has been able to get away with plenty over the years. They have hamstrung the American government and have conditioned the UN to charges of "anti-semitism" every time they open their mouths. People would rather let Israel get away with stuff than have to deal with them.
We are not talking about 1948 but now. There is a Palestinian people who share a common identity and there was a palestine before the creation of Israel. Palestinians did not accept partitition since they were loosing more than the Jews were gaining. The Jews, after the remanants came from the camps of Hitlers Europe were desperate to get what the international community would give them out of a sense of guilt over their inaction in stopping the extermination of world Jewry. The Palestians Israel and so too would Lebanon and Syria if it return the annexed Golan. Israel and Israel alone has chosen land expanionism over peace. How you can expect the Palestinians to have any faith in Israel when it is negotiating borders which they are simutaneously devouring for their own settlement project defies reason.
divide Palestine between jews and pals was a figment of someone's imagination?
I did not begin with the false assumption that there was a country in the west bank and that these people had at one time a country called Palestine. I referred to disputed lands. These lands have been disputed since 1967. You have read into my statement something which wasn't there. It was the UN who divided Palestine into two separate entities. It was the UN who declared it illegal to build on the disputed lands after 1967. It is the world community that considers Israeli settlements to be illegal, as well as various international law institutions. There are over 200 UN Security Council resolutions condemning Israel for taking these lands and building on them, and for their treatment of the Palestinians. If believing the rule of law should prevail and that morality has a place in modern society is defined by you as being on my high horse, then, indeed, I am on my high horse.
Reno, Israel is NOT grabbing arab land. Just to remind you this land in question was captured in the 1967 war from Jordan, so keep the rubbish talk to yourself.
UN did not divide between Jews and pals, all inhabitants in the mandate were formally called Palestinians from 1922 - 1948. But only Jews was called Palestinian, Arabs preferred Arabs or south Syrian UN Proposed to divide between Arabs and Jews.
and see how little you can get away with ceding. Read the liked charter---the plan is right there.
And wait until you actually end with no Israel.
are still eating mashed potatoes in Dublin-and Ulster is and will remain British. Life sucks ,eh Paddy Lahabras?
Why did the Palestinians reject UNGA 181? Why did the Palestinians reject the Clinton parameters (about 98% of the territories). Why did the Palestinians reject Olmert's offer? The last two offers were very close to the '67 lines, not "Greater Israel." You anti-Israelis are just a hateful bunch of creeps.
passing out parade in Ulster just two weeks ago. Yep--the president of Ireland---imagine it---a Catholic president opening a cermony for Ulster constabulary cops. My oh my---how far we have come from those adys when those northern spud eaters were in control---now they have to share power with spud eaters. Not so good at analogies---eh absolute BS.
An entity must fully control ALL of it's rightful territories. The Palestinians have never in the history of the region fully controlled all their rightful territories. In order for the Palestinians to fully control their rightful territories, Israel MUST stop the illegal settlements and withdraw to it's actual Sovereign boundaries. Want peace? P*ss off outta Palestine and Syria
If they never controlled the territories, how did the territories become, "rightfully" theirs? (particularly since Jews were also present on those territories)
Consider a "deceased estate". The Will declares that the estate will be divided in two, one half goes to Joe Ishmail, and the other half to Jim Palpatine. It is axiomatic that the estate was never "controlled" by either Joe or Jim (i.e. it belonged to the deceased). Now, SDHD, a question: can Joe Ishmail grab that estate and shout "It's mine! Mine! All mine!!!"? I believe you will find that the answer is "No", and the reason *why* is because one half of that house still "rightfully belong" to Jim regardless of how long Joe keeps that poor bloke locked up in the attic.
If you want to start peace talks than you should stop hostility. Abbas words are meaningful. I hope Bibi can understand this.
That’s because the last thing the Palestinian leader wants is a viable peace process, a fact that the administration may finally be starting to understand. Had Abbas wanted to accept a Palestinian state in the West Bank, Gaza, and part of Jerusalem, he could have accepted Ehud Olmert’s offer from 2008. He refused to even discuss that proposal because a peace deal would have forced him to accept not only peace but also the legitimacy of a Jewish state, even one inside truncated borders. Abbas knows that he cannot sign a peace agreement of any sort and survive, so he continues to prevaricate and seek excuses for not holding direct talks. The only question is how long it will take before Obama finally understands that although the Israelis have accepted the concept of a two-state solution, it is the Palestinians, who stand to benefit from such a scheme, who are incapable of accepting it. Until he does, the peace-process charade will continue.
NETANYAHU knows that he cannot sign a peace agreement of any sort and survive , not only politically but possibly also physically ...remember Itzhak Rabin !
BUILD BABY BUILD!!!! Best answer there is.
no doubt you still say "DRILL, BABY! DRILL!" despite the enormously tragic spill in the gulf. And all so you can drive your out-sized SUV to your local megachurch where you speak in tongues and learn of the jews' god-given right to Eretz Yisrael and the second-coming of jesus. UGH
It's all these little cases. Building a balcony here, a school there, a bank somewhere.
abbas' "plan" is dictated by reality.west bank,east jerusalem,gaza strip and access thereto.simple,if abhorrent to you.bibi either has no plan,or is keeping it secret from everyone.same goes for obama.i challenge any rightist here to present his plan for the end of the conflict,within the realms of feasability and probability.ie. don't give me a "back to saudia" or "jordan is palestine" PLAN,though you may DESIRE it.
And you say Bibi has nothing? Bibi has a country, Abbas has infighting within his own people who can't even agree who their actual leader is? He can't even come to terms with saying that Israel is a JEWISH state.. So I have no idea what you mean when you say Abbas has a clear plan??? I also have a "clear plan", in my mind I have a clear plan to marry Esti Ginzburg, so surely it means she's mine right? hahaha
Sma plan---"The Greater Israel". Nothing has changed except the names. Read the Likud Charter ---it mirrors the same mindset as those of all Israeli leaders since at least 1938.
definately not related
As 20%+ of the population are not Jews, it is a mixed ethnic state. As barely half practice Judaism, it is not a Jewish majority religious state either. Ronen and the nationalist right confuse 'state' and 'ethnicity' - the state is called Israel, the people are Jews, Arabs and assorted others. That is why the rest of the world recognises the state of Israel, not 'the Jewish state of' Israel - the latter is not even its legal, official or diplomatic name. This whole demand on Abbas is just a foolish racist one that nobody outside the right wing coalition would buy for one moment. Outside Israel, we don't institutionalise racism, we oppose and defeat it.
regarding nothing but facts,i wouldn't argue.the down side is this-if israel could achieve this-i would be totally passive-neither act against,nor take any part in it. i'd pretend to be able to repress all sentiment.now enters real-politik:can it be done?in a word-never.in the long run does this attempt strengthen or weaken israel?in the very long run,in the same direction,who will outlast whom?
The Greater Israel sounds reasonable to me. That's what our common God wants after all. The Greater Palestine, on another plan, has no foundation. History leans to us.
...the negotiating table. The Arabs put off any direct talks all the time the freeze was in affect, once again hoping to gain something for nothing - we are yet to see a single good will gesture coming from the Arab side!!!!! - and now they hope to stop talking before the talks even began while gaining more millage without talking. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you CAN'T fool all the people all of the time!!!
and you are no fool.so tell me how you would solve the israel-palestine problem,if at all(ie.keep on present track).
Qatzrin is in occupied Syrian heights. Go home???. Unless you are prepared to be a proud Sryian Jew.
is yet to begin in ALL occupied territories
Qatzrin is on Israels side of the interims border.
It is so boring to see how the Arabs on occasion of the announcement of 'peace talks' start to get nervous... they are hectically looking for a pretext to sabotage them again, as they did in the past. It is misleading to say they 'are missing opportunities' - they don't want these 'opportunities' at all...
that is your version.let it be.if you would be so kind-what is the purpose and what is the plan behind the settlement project?where will palestine be(if at all) and where will israel extend to?" minor" questions i don't bring up.
maybe the Arabs can find a location, but not in the little country that comprises less than 1 % of the ME. There is plenty of room in the Syrian desert.
Israel has the Mandate to start Construction at full throttle the moment the freeze expires on the 26th. The State of Israel allowed this travesty of a measure to continue 'for 10 month's.' The country has NO Intention; (Zero Chance) of allowing it to go a minute past the SET Expiration point. Chief Mookie of the PA will have to continue negotiations while we continue building everyday...
Then you can ethnically cleanse your own citizens and bulldoze those settlements, just like you did in Sinai and Gaza. You have a really frugal attitude towards Diaspora money.
The rest of the world sees all the Israeli settlements as illegal. You can kick and scream all you want, but sooner or later you're going to have to stop taking the Palestinians' land.
You refer to it as Palestinian land with no reasonable assessment of why. I can only surmise it's because you will say "The Palestinians were here first and the Jews kicked them off of it and stole it", in which case you're missing the earlier part of history by which Jews had control before the Palestinians (before there was a Palestine), which was then stolen from the Jews and given to others. You can't base an argument of history and ignore the earlier part of history simply to suit your need.
Israel has a track record, not shared by Netanyahu, of bulldozing settlements and ethnically cleansing its own citizens. So, it is possible that Netanyahu might just be wasting Israeli money by planning to continue building. Netanyahu's own record is to oppose all of these moves in favor of a nonexistent right of conquest. Abbas is leery and rightly so. He is dealing with Netanyahu. But maybe if the Knesset and Netanyahu obeyed Israeli law and made a down payment of the past rent due on seized private Palestinian lands, it might be taken as a sign that Netanyahu has changed.
Great (and foolish) idea. But IF you insist, pay the Jews compensation for their lost property in over 20 Arab countries first! Oh yes, and by the way, talking about ethnic cleansing....what is Hamas doing with their own people?!?!
If you want compensation from Tunisia, make a deal with Tunisia. The Palestinians are not authorized to deal on Tunisia's behalf. The Iraqis can't talk for the Kuwaitis, either. As for Hamas, is that ethnic?
If you want something from Tunisia, ask Tunisia, not Palestine or Iraq. What is Hamas doing, do tell?
Remember when Sharon was the big bad wolf? Look at where that old rutabaga is today. They'll all be gone sooner or later, and the Palestinians will be free. They know that Israel is destroying itself, so they just have to wait.
Every talkback shows your burning desire to return to the days when Israelis ran every facet of the government of the Palestinians from the hospitals to the schools to police and fire services. Just think, you can teach all those kids the Israeli curriculum and even run Torah classes.
And no one can stop it. The only question is when the end will come. It really is just the declaration of a Palestinian State away. Or the demand for equal rights by Palestinian Israeli,s after they drop the two state solution demand. Poof---Zionist project up in smoke----oh and mirrors.
Why not? We don't want citizens like Chafeeka in the Palestinian state and we don't mind settlers who hecome Palestinian citizens and obey the rules.
Doesn't it bother you a little that so many right wing Israelis claim that people like you don't actually exist?
Arabs in Israel is Israeli Arabs not Palestinians and are Israeli. Inhabitants of PA are "Palestinians".
If a Jew made a statement like that, the entire Left would run around screaming.
Are you comparing terrorist attacks with illegal settlements activity? It doesn't sound too far fetched to me, except the latter takes or ruins many more lives.
When the arabs murder Jews, there is no way to reverse it.
it's a complete travesty if Israel cannot assure Abbas such a basic condition...
...About my difficulty to make choices... try to understand that once one made a firm choice; thinking stops! How confortable for final choice makers! Why bother about the truth? The choice was made instead ... Like, say, Soviet communists....Yet, one choice one should always make: between life and death of the brain...but not a choice about choices.... Do you think that the choice North Koreans have made, or the suicide terrorists of Al Qaeda, is any different from your simplistic choice of Leftism? Theirs transforms immediately into terror if one does not conform. Like in Iran now. Or under Hamas. Or in Venezuela. Or in Cuba. Or the choice haredim are making.... They continue thinking? No Esther!!! Sartre stopped thinking forever, once he chose the Soviet communism! But Yves Montand, much the lesser intellectual, continued thinking after, I don't recall exactly, the Hungarian or the Czechoslovac revolution and quit communism! .... Blind choice is the end of the brain function....and the start of wars between choice makers.
I agree completely that defining everything a priori in black-and-white, with no shades between, is not a solution... however, there is something else like an internal compass, almost sub-concious, that classifies situations according to something that resides deep in ones soul...like equal value of human beings... I'm sorry that it sounds so naive, but I don't know how else to express it, off-the-cuff in a talkback...
....that internal compass, almost sub-conscious, where does it differ from prejudice? What about another internal compass, which evaluates each issue as it develops right NOW, when it happens? What about living life in the present (no past, no future), like an animal, but all the time evaluating, thinking, according to a different, simple compass - not Right, not Left, not religious, not atheistic, BUT true? false? Good? Bad? ....
but dont be upset...any one can do it to you...even you
... this idea of having various compasses, one to fit each occasion, is very far from what I was trying to put accross... maybe you are confusing 'compass' with 'choice'... if one is going into new or unkown territory with a compass in one's pocket, it will invariable point in the same direction, so that you can navigate according to that... day or night, sunlight or rain...
Then there is nothing that can be done. Typically, discussions herein end with such sort of zero like yours, in the best case, insults in the medium case, and swearing heavily in the extreme case. Normally this happens when one loses the discussion. But you seem to me to have given up a bit early..... By the way, in my previous post, at the end: " true? false? Good? Bad? .... " I should have added - intelligent? stupid?
does your reasoning become... keep it up... that anonymous guy/gal definitely put it best....
....your post of 12:25 (..."I didn't make myself clear"...) came in long AFTER my post of 15:13 (...me confused?").... So, I can imagine what balagan came out. Nevertheless, what you wrote and what I wrote remains as is. All the best to you. S
it's a complete travesty if Israel cannot assure Abbas such a basic condition...
For the better part of a year there has been a freeze and Abbas didnt seem to care. Now he cares? Why should anyone else though?
The occupation of the Palestinian territory and the illagal settlements are SO XIXth century!
Wow!!! 24 (maybe more now) people liked this comment! It has added nothing to the debate and hasn't enlightened anyone apart from those who understand politics by reading the back of a cereal box. You really found this post enthralling? I'm glad the left wing have so many intellectuals.
For almost ten months Abbas could easily have had direct talks with Israel on account of there being a construction freeze. However, right from the start he said that he did not recognise the construction freeze and that he would not have any direct talks on account of the freeze. I find it rather difficult to digest that he is now saying that if Israel resumes construction he will end any direct talks. He has had plenty of time and has completely squandered it. Is there any one in the Palestine Authority who can take the place of this hypocrite and really advance peace and not mere lip service? I stress, he cannot recognise/denigrate the freeze to suit his political stance. It is clear he has no intention of building peace with Israel and it is time Abbas steps down.
GD - VERY well put! Abbas is SO manipulative it is laughable! He will find many a reason to stall, vacillate, and procrastinate. Inevitably, if and when the talks fail, Israel will be blamed anyway, unfortunately. Israel should gamble and be seen to be the one conceding...it will be interesting to see how Abbas then reacts!
needs to end his posturing and come to the table... so we can give his people a home and so we can stop supporting them
The question is whether or not you will allow them sovereignty over their homes or not. Your current government is in every way trying to deny them any real sovereignty and keep them as foreigners with no rights where they already live.
If they want sovereignty, all they have to do is accept any one of the offers which have come their way.
Maybe Israel could offer to pay the back rent that is due, under Israeli law (see Homesh case), just as an incentive to keep the talks going. I'd guess it would have to be offered for all settlements built on private Palestinian land. The PA could act as trustee for the private land owners and process the payments through to them. The money is owed whether or not a settlement is reached. And ongoing rent will be due so long as there is a square centimeter not accessible by the landowner of record. All according to Israeli black letter law.
A slippy slope to go down. Israel has admitted that about 40% of legal settlements on Arab owned land, not counting the illegal outposts but much of that 40% was between settlements and restricted to Arabs for security reasons.
If use is restricted for security reasons, then land must be rented, not seized or purchased. And other land acquisition is against Israeli black letter law during the occupation.
What happens when Abbas and Netanyahu sign a Peace Treaty and Hamas reject it (as they will)?! Israel and Fatah teaming up to teach Hamas a lesson, maybe? Hmmmm.... Until Gaza comes back in to the legitimate Palestinian fold and Hamas are obliterated, the peace Treaty will not be worth the paper it is written on!
"Intelligence Minister Dan Meridor continued last week to promote his initiative to renew construction only in the large settlement blocs set to be annexed to Israel" So Dan makes Bibi a liar before talks start.
It would be a shame if the Netanyahu-Abbas relations go up in shambles. Nobody is dying. It hasn't been this positive for a long time. All the time Arafat was negotiating, he was still busy killing Jews. A Kennehorah and Good Luck!
If you don't atack then you have peace.
the longer the palestinians stare at the pizza, the smaller the pizza will become. now, abbas can continue to stare at the pizza, or else he can start negotiating about the slicing of the pizza. he has already lost gaza to his beloved hamas brethren. he should also keep in mind that any outbreak of war will put off any palestinian state indefinitely.
Best regards, S
sure, you are right in the short term, the Pizza is getting smaller while Abbas is not negotiating and also outbreak of war would put off a palestinian state. BUT, here's news for you : in the short term Israel might enjoy all the pizza but not on the long therm. All countries, members of the United Nationions are saying the 1967 borders must be respected, socalled international law. Maybe you should get rid of The UN too, then you might have a chance enjoying your pizza other wise all your benefits will be short lived. I got some advise for you : start thinking about the move after your next move.
abbas must think he is in the casba. he is hoping that obama will give him a state on a silver platter. however, obama has no such power.
are you blind? The only pre-conditions come from Israel!
You right wingers have taught Abbas how to bargain with you. Well Done!
thheee "freeze" was obama's pre-condition. obama must unfreeze the freeze. the obama freeze is freezing all of us.
...no wonder, the late Abba Eban, Israel's former foreign minister, coined the phrase: "The Arabs have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity" to reach peace. Sadly, they continue to prove Ebban correct time after time!!!
It may likely be in Israels interest to avoid construction in a settlement if it was due to be evacuated. This is if Israel was sincere about making peace of course. If Israel is just going through the peace fakery motions, then it is likely they will not want to suspend settlement construction since nothing will be changed or evacuated.
Which is what makes illegal settlements ILLEGAL.
Read again. UNSCR says that the border is to be set whit negations.
If Netanyahu can get away with construction DURING the negotiations then he has a powerful incentive to draaaaaaag those negotiations out indefinitely, because while he drags them out the "facts on the ground" keep tilting in his favour. But if construction has to be frozen then he has a powerful incentive to clinch a deal ASAP, because only by doing that can he silence the howls of protest from those who want to build but can't. Obama has made a terrible blunder here, one that dooms these talks before they even begin.
and a man and a country is only as good as its word
... not to make it seem like an ultimatum delivered by the USA in order to favor the Pals...
What an intelligent and reasoned observation?!??!?!?
He spent a lot of time in Moscow - apparently never visiting Chess Club
russia and iran have thus far defeated him. iran now has two tracks to develop nuclear weapons: one, through uranium enrichment, two through plutonium separation and purification. trusting the russians to count accurately the fuel rods is a dream--like my fathers'.
did you ever learn chess? can you speak english yet? how long you been in brooklynn ruski boy? not real bright huh?
they are top fighters; they are top writers; they are top singers; they are top chess players.
but you never had a clue anyway...nothing new there
At the cabinet meeting, Netanyahu stressed....a resolution to the refugee problem within the borders of the Palestinian state.
A Palestine created = no more refugee problem! You can`t have both. Also, look at history! Jews were kicked out of Arab lands &could also demand compensation. Israel had the generosity/foresight to settle their refugees. How about doing the same?!
Jews were kicked out of their home countries and have done nothing to demand their rightful compensation, they should expect the Palestinians to do the same?
Never the less, it was not the Palestinians who created Jewish refugees from the Arab States. It was a response to Israeli aggression towards the Palestinians B) A host country is not obliged to settle refugees if the refugees would rather hold out for return.
Jews were 'kicked out' of Europe and are being 'compensated' by European taxation. Many of those Jews are now citizens of Israel. I hope reparations/copenstaions etc from either side doesn't hinder the peace process, but European Jews (most of Israelis) shouldn't kvetch about 'compensation' in my opinion. Peace should be the target.
If Jews who were kicked out of Arab countries are living on properties which were once inhabited by Palestinians, the Palestinians get compensated and the Jews don't?
If there's peace....who cares where the borders are? Israel..thriving already..would continue to thrive with increased foreign investments and increased tourism. "Palestine" would share in the increased tourism..and employment opportunities in Israel and Palestine would be abundant.
Its reasonably logical to demand such a thing. The very principle of these negotiations is building a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders. That means Israel must retreat from all land occupied after that war including the evacuation of settlements. I am confident that anyone could be insane if he agrees to get involved in such negotiations while building and stealing land from what is supposed to be a Palestinian state. Could those stupid people think about it and stop calling Abbas a stupid person! Or perhaps think which stupidity is better: get involve in negotiations with Bibi who builds inside Abbas' future state, or refuse negotiations and wait until someone be kind to Abbas and accept his desires?
"The very principle of these negotiations is building a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders." Untrue. According to Netanyahu the only principle worth discussing is how Israel can keep the Palestinians defenseless. Only when that "security need" is met will he show any interest in sanctifying those "security red lines" as "borders". Or, in short: his ambit claim will be the "security fence" as the border, not the "green line" as the border.
What 1967 borders? read UN res.242
no peace will come under the current statuesque, the new generation will have to do it, another 17 years we wait!
he should not be where he is... and he has nothing in his tow, except Jewish question. Why is he our president? Is America that crazy about Jewish question?
if there is any a-rab: violence,, denunciations,, or barbaric, anti Jewish acts...the deal is posponed until, guarantees.. by the tunnel/rug rats, of a complete halt to such depraved hostility....
It is a two-way street.
To include the terms "a-rab" and "tunnel/rug rats" in this post is blatantly racist. I'm surprised this was even allowed to be posted, but am somewhat glad, because it gives some insight into the depraved mindset of a few who are determined to stand in the way of peace with a peoples that they deem inferior to themselves. I really do hope you represent the overwhelming minority.
Abbas is, again, saving his backside by trying to look brave - he is showing weakness! He should believe that the very fact negotiations are taking place means he must bring the settlements up as a legitimate point. Setting preconditions, again, is just making a mockery of the talks before they even start....it would be like Bibi saying:" If they bring up the refugee issue, the talks will fail"...what kind of no-precondition-talks are these? Abbas, stop being a chicken and be a man!
Bibi just said the refugee problem must be solved within the Palestinian state. He in fact listed 4 preconditions to his "no preconditions" peace talks.
Neitehr will ISrael. I tyhink palis do not want any sort of agreement but they do want peace. Just nothing that they can be tied down to and be accountable
if he made any kind of settlement. (Sadat) He is not the leadership, he was only chosen because he has a closet full of western suits, speaks English, and is good at sound bites that keeps the money coming in. His term has expired, no elections are in sight, and anything he does can be nullified.
.... but the are umpteen other settlments and hilltop provocations that must go ASAP...
The parties will resort to anything to drag this out for as long as possible. So far they've dragged it out for 60 years. Please, parties, settle this, we're sick of it. '
what do rockets have to do with settlements?
talking about a hail of rockets killing jews might ease your feelings of impotence against israeli greed and arrogance, but the actuality of it would do the palestinians no good. Peaceful resistance will accomplish much more, as it already is
Rockets justify themselves, they get peoples attention. They are specially fired for arrogant people who want more and more > they can have it > ROCKETS ! They want the land ? They can have it, ... but the land comes with the rockets. Not one without the other. You seem a good fellow Josh, but when you come to my ripe age of 97 you will see that firing rockets has nothing to do with impotence, ...Fire Away !!!
Do you know ANY other people on the planet who've stopped building over a land dispute?
El stupido there is no land dispute. The settlements are illegal so go take a cold shower to settle down.
"Do you know ANY other people on the planet who've stopped building over a land dispute?" Consider it a court-ordered injunction.
My girlfriend's father is in a protracted court battle right now over the building of a gate on some land that either he or his long-time neighbor own. Since various agreements and property deeds have been shown that both sides own the land in question, the court has ordered that on that land, no one can do anything until a final decision is reached. So I guess the answer to your question is yes. And although I don't know any Palestinians personally (neither do I know any Israelis), I'm guessing there are about 7 million land disputes going on right now.
... who practice daylight robbery as a constant policy?
But they think that they can do anything on the land which is not theirs.
I'm sorry, which communities stopped growing over land disputes?
So, you're saying the Arab communities should stagnate as well, given that there's a dispute? Or only the Jewish ones?
So, you're saying the Arab communities should stagnate as well, given that there's a dispute? Or only the Jewish ones?
..continuation of settlement expansion is brazen evidence of collusion as to this facade of direct jokes. Wait for the sabotage.
You mean, Jewish expansion (where BOTH people have lived for centuries) is bad, but Arab expansion is not?
Same dumb argument. Expand within 1967 recognized borders and if unmanageable try practicing birth control.
mosques have been built inside Israel proper since 1967? How much public money is put aside to help better Arab neighborhoods? Where is this "Arab expansion" you speak of?
In Israel, there have been 1,000 new villages for Jews who are new arrivals to the Middle East and NO new villages for Arabs who have lived there all their lives. Now. What were you saying again? And. Try to say it with a straight face. :-)
Tough luck. Just because Jordan and Egypt captured the territories and wiped them clean of Jews for 19 years doesn't make the '67 lines any sort of "recognized" border, dippy. The final borders are to be negotiated. Or should the Arabs in Israel practice birth control?
How completely free of any sense the poster "SDHD" is? I don't think he could lick an ice cream without slapping it repeatedly into his forehead if you look at the evidence. The average family pets intelligence would dwarf this poor fellows meager offering.
Armistice lines are not borders.
You conjure up some nonsense about new villages, but the Palestinian population continues growing. How did that happen?
How can anyone in their right mind expect the Palestinians to proceed with the talks when Israeli actions reflect absolutely NO intention of vacating settlements or relinquishing the land it illegally occupies - which is the 'supposed' purpose of the negotiations? Even Obama's insistent expectation that they participate is downright unreasonable considering Netanyahu's refusal to acknowledge any framework or goals for their outcome. His stance on this issue points to the probability that HIS purpose for these negotiations is to make the Palestinians an offer they will absolutely refuse! He claims that his hands are tied for threat of losing his governing coalition - but let us not forget that HE built that coalition to reflect HIS governing agenda. They are the peas - HE is the pod!
It's the Palestinians who've rejected a state every single time one has been offered to them. Why should the Israelis withdraw from 100% of the land? It was only Jew-free from 1948-67.
Equal human and civl rights for ALL in Palestine/Israel. Catchy, isn't it?
And tens of millions of people died, including about 6 million Jews. after this war, some conventions were signed by almost every country in the world, so that the atrocities committed by the guilty parties in that war would never again happen. things like the "spoils of war." wars of colonization. stealing people's personal property. i wonder if Israel ever agreed to those conventions ...
Why should the Arabs who were driven from the land in 1948 and 1967 and are currently refugees not be allowed back to their homes. If what you wrote is agreeable about the Jews right to return, then what I have written about Arabs right of return must be agreeable. Otherwise hypocracy is such an ugly thing to face up to.
Why should Arabs refuge has the right of return, when refuges on Cyprus not have the right of return
Why do the Kan's of the world...believe that if other nations carry out injustices...it is acceptable for Israel to behave in the same manner.
So, Jordan was allowed to capture the territories, cleanse them of Jews and if the Jews moved back in 19 years later, they breached the Geneva Conventions?
The Palestinians don't get to enter Israel because they are still at war, brilliant one.
You're forever off on some subject that has no bearing on current reality.
so the jews are not keeping their word? i am soooo shocked
If the slowdown of construction (freeze never happened) is discontinued, the choice to end talks will have been made by the Israeli government. That is an inevitable consequence of the action.
So, the Palestinians haven't decided to end the talks? Why did they fail to restart them until the 11th hour in the first place?
Rocket, fire-bomb and shooting attacks on Israelis continued for the entire 10-month freeze. Israel got nothing in return - ZERO. No negotiations either. If Abbas wants no construction, he must shut down all rockets and mortars, FROM GAZA ALSO! "But Abbas doesn't control Gaza", you'll whine - well how the hell will he deliver on a peace agreement, then, why give him anything? A fair compromise here is to give Israel 10 months of "credit" for its good-faith freeze when Abbas refused to reciprocate, allowing construction to resume for 10 months. Otherwise, Abbas is demonstrating he doesn't really want a state. Israel has every right to build on the few percent of land everybody knows they will retain. Otherwise "Freeze" is just another form of terrorism directed against Israeli civilians..
When will Israel allow the PA to have the necessary weapons and transit permits to retake Gaza. Somehow you think they can and are supposed to do something that the IDF has singularly been unable and unwilling to do for decades.. Then again, maybe the PA should just demand that the Israeli government follow its own law and pay its back rent - all of it, now and arrange to continue making payments as long as a single settlement is on private Palestinian land. Israel would then have a difficult choice to make - follow its own laws or not. On the other hand, when was the last time Israel enforced any actual written law when it came to a settlements.
Your opposition confirms that my thinking is more correct than not.
The terms of the freeze was for 10 months and in the absence of some compelling argument it will not be renewed. Since Abbas ignored the previous 10 months, and any inhibitions on building have to be considered against the severe infringement on property rights of Israeli citizens it is unlikely that Abbas will get what he wants. Certainly not in Ariel, Betar or Maale Adumin can any freeze be allowed. Abbas is raising an ultimatum because he needs the crisis for internal political purposes.
and it calls for an end to squatter construction PERMANENTLY...read it and weep
and neither does the IDF...this is between PA and zio state...try to pay attention
When the Palestinians say that they will withdraw from direct negotiations, that is THEIR choice, blubbering bozo.
... the nearer one is to the painful truth...
The roadmap was repeatedly broken by Palestinian terrorists and is merely a road map. It is not a binding contract. It was an informal agreement broken by the Palestinians.
I see more of settler terrorism. Palestenian terrorisn has come to an almost halt!
She'd realize the epithets get stronger when an idiot misses the obvious and the obvious is repeated -- along with a stronger epithet. Putting all the blame on Israel for a PALESTINIAN decision to withdraw from negotiations overlooks something obvious -- don't you think? That it's the PALESTINIANS who chose to withdraw.
I can't understand the whole plot: So, did he use word "halt" or word "end" or may be non of two?
This issue is particularly revealing of elements in Netanyahu's personality. First, a basic principle. If you are discussing with another side sharing the land (or a pizza), it cannot be done while one party keeps devouring the land (or the pizza). Some form of a freeze is obviously a necessary condition for peace talks. If Netanyahu did not think of this ahead of time, he could have gotten a clue from the fact that the Roadmap included a freeze in the FIRST phase. This is basic. What decision did the Netanyahu government take? 1. The freeze applies to outside the current line of buildings, not to building WITHIN the currently built area. 2. The freeze will last for only 10 months. 3. The freeze will not be renewed. What do these elements indicate? The first element shows that Netanyahu has some reality, and understands that a territorial exchange is acceptable to the Palestinians, so he takes advantage of it. The two other points are clearly unreal. Was it conceivable that the talks will be concluded in only 10 months? Would the Palestinians and the US even conceive of talking peace with no freezing? I think Netanyahu has enough reality to realize that, but since he was dealing with his right wing partners Lieberman and most of Likud members, he decided to deceive them for now, present a nicer picture, and when the time comes he would try to wiggle out of it. All this shows Netanyahu as a creature of pressure; when pressured he acts, many times deceptively. Ultimately, he is not a courageous leader. He did not fight out the good fight then. Now he will pay some extra political cost for cheating.
Funny thing is, Jews AND Arabs lived on the Gaza pizza, now, it's ONLY Arabs living on that pizza. Jews AND Arabs lived on the West Bank and East Jerusalem pizzas. Jews were only absent for 19 years. Arabs live on MOST of the West Bank and East Jerusalem pizzas now. You're a fool and your analogy sucks.
According to your logic, Abbas should get what scraps he can get or he will end up with no Pizza at all. If Abbas walks down a path that ensures that he gets no Pizza, then that's his choice. A A
Forget the 1 state solution being mandated by the settlements. A 1 state solution would quickly break down into a civil war. Which side will win? The side with nuclear weapons or the side with rocks and firecrackers. Abbas better get his hands on the pie sooner than later.
It takes a little bit of intelligence to make distinctions, which SDHD is not capable of. A telling example: The Pizza analogy. Is there a difference between individuals living in a place versus settling in order to annex it? Leave arguments to people with some smarts. About the likes of you and your insults the Talmud says: "It is an ill thing to knock against a deaf/dumb, an imbecile, or a minor. He that harms them is culpable, but if they harm him they are not culpable."
He is an ideologue - He will wriggle out of commitments to Obama and the negotiations before he wriggles out of commitments to his coalition
Seems like he has a pretty good track record so far.
A pizza is a consumable commodity Land is not Gaza is evidence of it, your analogy is good for one thing propaganda for imbeciles For someone who often writes logical posts this post is dumbfounding and either prooves you've had too many, you really are as intelligent as a mindless propagandist or that someone else writes your posts (or this one) Either way your logic fails by the sheer fact noted above which begs the question of why did you post it
if land it taken and kept, it has been "consumed" for purposes of the analogy. Please come up with a new moniker because your current one is inapt
.. but he is also a WEAK person. When pressure is applied, Netanyahu bends. You have to consider historical FACTS. Netanyahu believes in Greater Israel, but he signed over most of Hebron. Truth be told, he only did it after the "tunnel riots", i.e., under pressure. And in Wye, he signed over an additional 13% of the West Bank (under US pressure). When he returned home from Wye, he discovered that his Likud and his coalition were up in arms against Wye. Under this pressure he "suspended" the handing over of the 13%. Soon afterwards the government fell, and the promised land of 13% was given over by Barak.
If your analogy were accurate, the Gaza pizza would have been consumed by the Israelis, meanwhile, there are no Israelis in Gaza. And BOTH parties are living on the West Bank and East Jerusalem pizzas. Now, explain how the Gaza pizza has been consumed by the Israelis, and the other pizzas will be consumed, without so much as an anchovy being given to the Palestinians. Your analogy sucked. Your blather about "distinctions" sucks.
Sounds to me as if the real message is: ( from both sides) is that, having waited until the freeze is nearly over, we have readied the ground for pulling out, and can justify it to any and all onlookers. Hardly the great moment of reckoning, is it?
Have any of you been in an Arab Souk (market) – and observed the shouting, wailing, hand wringing, threats and crocodile tears of the merchants bargaining with their customers? Then observing the ‘deal’ – a smile, a hug, a handshake and all is forgiven. The Arabs are masters at negotiating; they have been since the dawn of time! They are not (complete) idiots! The Arabs who call themselves ‘Palestinians’ are no less masterful in trying to negotiate a state with as much land as they can get (from the Israelis) – preferably everything! Simply talking like gentlemen is not part of their lexicon – and it assumes compromise! That looks sissy-ish There is more at stake here than just a state, and land. There is EGO! Just agreeing to talk makes them look subservient and weak! The Israelis are no less masterful. Simply getting the Arabs to sit and talk – makes the ‘Palestinians’ look weak and subservient. What a position from which to start! Besides, Israel is a state and member of the UN – who, incidentally have never chartered the Palestinians as a people nor a state. If Israel has no right to exist according to the Arabs – have the Palestinians? Peace – Damned if you do – doomed if you don’t! Argue all you want – but leave this to the masters – and learn. Written by an Israeli