We're not man enough to make peace

#346 ~ This is not charity: Israel doesn`t need the money to survive, but to expand. ~The investment is worth it to those who make it and the return is substantial. ~You`re right we get money from the USA and am proud that a small country like mine is able to be the mouse to the lion and consistently prove her value. 348 How else do you think we`re still in existence after sixty years of warfare, and not only in existence we`re flourishing, a first world country in a third world area Marge, Your conceited arrogance in the above posts is undeserved. Walid does have a valid point. America?s financial, economic, and military support is the reason for Israel?s advanced standard of living compared to its neighbors. Direct American aid up to 1999 was 134 billion. This is not inclusive, as it does not include other indirect aide. It is all due to the political manipulation of AIPAC and other Jewish organizations. It is also to somewhat to blame for Israel?s refusal to take a pragmatic approach to making peace with the Palestinians. Israeli?s are insulated from the real economic and financial burden of supporting the Israeli military. America gains nothing from this relationship. If you think otherwise, I?d like to remind you of how Israel was a strategic liability during Desert Storm. As far as intelligence sharing, the information shared about Iraq appears to be heavily doctored. The real cost to America, is in the damage done to its reputation by its association with Israeli expansion into the occupied territories and the oppression of the Palestinians. They do not deserve our participation in their oppression. I do not, however, discount the technical abilities or commercial enterprise of the Israeli people, but that is not the cause of the privileged economic position that you are so proud of.

Hey Walid, I hope you find the JMCC site (from my message to you #366) interesting http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2007/no62.pdf My main reason for reading thru Haaretz Talkbacks is to find new links to sources of info. I don't believe personal blogs, but think-tanks like Palestinian JMCC and joint Israeli-Palestinian http://www.bitterlemons-international.org/ are very interesting. Burston believes that both Israelis and Palestinians ?are not man enough? is the reason for not achieving peace. If you agree with him, that?s fine with me. However, I believe that the fight is existential for Israeli and Palestinian groups? tribal survival, and that?s why it?s intractable. Maybe one day we, the mid-Eastern cousins, will adopt the Western creed of individual rights superseding the communal rights. Then we will fly a federal flag over Jerusalem, and the peace will descend on our neighborhood for the first time in history. I'm not holding my breath. Peace

Why is it that only certain kinds of Israelis and selected foreign friends who make nice to them are allowed to call people bigots, racists, liars and thieves? Attacking people instead of arguments is distasteful no matter what the provenance, quite so. Reaping what one sows is not always pleasant.

walid, I doubt either myself or Tosefta entertain any illusions as to the real reasons why the US went to Iraq (I read the PNAC document, and commented often here on the purpose of that exercise in nasty stuff that Iraq represents). I know saddam was just a convenient excuse (US only hates dictators when convenient). iraq was an incidental point in my discussion (not quite argument) with Tosefta, since I used it to illustrate that it is such a disaster that it may actually represent an existential threat not to the US as much as to the West. saddam was just a bad guy that started to look better only because what the US did (and is still doing) is so much worse. My new insight is that Iraq may well become a water shed event - the first victory of an Arabic entity over a western power, made all the worse in that victory will have been produced by a rag tag assortment of groups - some genuine resistance, some militia looking for power, some terrrorists - using scorched earth tactics...

You still haven't given me the figures that prove your accusation: what is the percentage of land that we gave back for peace compared to the amount you say we are stealing? One hundred percent, two hundred percent, a half a percent or something in between? If you can't attack my argument you attack my person. I'm this and I'm that. I'm like peter, I'm from South Africa: I never thought you would stoop to such racist, desperate insults, but here you are, stooping. You give the mean measurement of your soul to everyone here who despises people who make judgements on such a basis.

Cipora, so are yours, so are yours; I just read your sensitive feelings towards Arabs after the IDF shooting of the kids and its comments such as these that make me react that way.

Michael Jacobs, you are so full of yourself that you are not reading properly what I wrote. I said the people of Saudi Arabia have no obligation to support the people of Lebabon (who don't have oil by the way) especially that they are not doing it to their own people.

This is an open site, and whatever you post is read by many more than you think. Your posts are very clear as to your feelings about Jews.

You disdainfully regard foreign investments in Israel as 'handouts' and you seem to suggest that these monies by themselves made Israel prosper. From this, it is obvious that you have a very low opinion on the People of Israel. When talking of Arabs, you claim that the Saudis should have no obligations beyond serving themselves. With remarks as these, you, an Arab from Lebanon, typically assert your own third-world mentality - which is all I wanted to point out to you in the first place.

Margie, you are sounding more and more like the ranter from Montreal, Peter. You want American money but not American comments. The only expansion I'm focussed on is the stealing of land and water from the helpless Palestinians. No wonder you find no fault with this, it's your second time around from SA.

S, you took my 35 billions comment out of context and I do not feel in any way that this money came anywhere close to repairing the attrocities committed but as I explained to Michael Jacobs just above, my comments were in response to the pompous boasting of a parasite so please don't take this discussion to where it was not intended to go and spare your keyboard for better and worthwhile fights.

What does 'other people's money' mean Walid? Money that comes from the outside always has strings attached which you conveniently neglect to mention. Of course you mope over the fact that Israel is able to make such arrangements and is able to show her value in order to be attractive to such money. This is not charity: Israel doesn't need the money to survive, but to expand. The investment is worth it to those who make it and the return is substantial. You're right we get money from the USA and am proud that a small country like mine is able to be the mouse to the lion and consistently prove her value. As for you, well sitting on the Jewel of the Middle East and moping about having nothing to offer is more a testament to your inadequacy than anything else.

I thought you are a fair man. YOU ARE NOT! Here is your " Had it not been for the 35 billions collected from Germany on the ashes of the victims...", etc, etc. Unbelievable slander! Did the 35 billion (collected much later than when the 6 million Jews were killed) pay just a part of what the Nazi's stole from them? And that without counting the killing itself, just money stolen. Do you know what Goering alone stole? And about the Swiss banks where uncounted Jewish deposits disapeared in their vaults? Hey, it's not only the money from their possesions but ALSO THEIR GOLD TEETH. Again I am breaking my keyboard writing to you.

I also know the Chinese curse "may you live in interesting times". Not every state is a Switzerland. But the way you succintly put it, let itself to too many ambiguities. This you should have foreseen, and avoid: state on which side you are; and if no side, better stay out or, at least, don't brag. Problems need problem solvers.

Dana, you and Tosefta appear to have concluded that America should have gone about it in another way to remove Saddam in going to Iraq for a regime change. You are both forgetting America's true objective on Iraq and Saddam had nothing to do with it.

jh, save the guilt-trip propaganda for another public because it doesn't work on me and explain to me how holocaust survivors today have to practically beg the Israeli government for a respectable living allowance after it had received over 35 billions in reparations from the Germans for the horrible acts committed on Jews and another 400 millions from the Swiss banks for practically the same reason. I have been reading about the ongoing debates on increasing their allowances by a few dollars to prevent them from living in poverty. Israelis should be ashamed of themselves

Michael Jacobs, I'm not complaining about Israel getting handouts but trying to explain to someone that she should not be pompously bragging about Israel's exploits without taking into account these monies that give it the push to take it where it is today. As to Arab wealth having been squandered on the luxuries of life rather than on the improvement of the lives of their people, I'm on agreement with you on that but there is no oil in Lebanon and nothing that says that the Saudis have to spend their monies on it when it wasn't spending on its own people. I was addressing one of those ungrateful Israeli parasites that want other people's money to keep coming into her country but not their opinions on anything.

`Israel can use a good leader to pull the peace thing off. Without it, it will not happen. Do we agree on this real case before us?` (Tosefta) Sure. Yet, I even maintain that for peace to happen good leadership is needed in the US too. Unfortunately, both the US and Israel`s systems are rigged to produce mediocre leaders at best. So for a good leader to emerge requires a sea change of the hearts and minds of the people, because it will be against the odds. In the US, I believe that nothing short of Obama will do, and that will be the people`s test. Believing that a good leader can be elected even from a bad system puts me in the same boat as Tolstoy, i.e., somewhat of an optimist (and a suspected mystic). In reality, both in the US and in Israel, trends portend away from that, so such optimism as I may have is held well in check. In the end, we do, of course agree on likelihoods, though, like Mark Lincoln, I see a non~negligible probability for gloomier outlook still, making me a worse pessimist than you are (Livni + Barak not enough to make me hopeful. Or Hillary for that matter – she who swings as fast as the eye can see).

`If an elected president is a dud, the country can survive for 4 years with him because it is not under an existential threat.` (Tosefta) Jury is out how large the Bush damage is. The existential threat may have been to the western world, as the Iraq disaster undermined faith in US as a power for good. For the 1st time, moslems brought a Western superpower to its knees. What`s worse is that the US lost the high moral ground, putting right on the side of the insurgency, even in the minds of many Americans. Every suicide bombing in Iraq is now blamed on a conqueror`s misguided goals and tactics ~ and rightly so, because the uprising works by simply preventing good outcomes. Worse yet, as the good guy was shown to be bad, the bad guy (Saddam) started to look better, making a case for tyranny, not democracy. But it`s even worse. Many Americans (most democrats) doubt that success in the short term (i.e., the `surge`) is good for the country`s long term interests. So we have a Vietnam~like syndrom where big part of the population wishes for its own defeat in Iraq. A classic case of scoring an own goal. It is possible that in the end, the conclusion will be that even in the US it would have been better to have a system that allows faster removal of incompetent leadership.

I hope that this will be the last word on this article. 365 responses to an op-ed piece. Please consider using your energy to bring peace and reconciliation on a personal level, to those around you, instead of attacking phantom "enemies" on the internet. Hug your significant other, and tell your kids you love them. Consider what Jesus, Mohammed, and Buddah said, in one form or another, "Do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you." Stop bitching, stop kvetching, and start loving.

Israelis, those with tattooed numbers on their arms, and their children, should be justifiably proud of their country?s economic and scientific success. They are grateful for the investment (guilt-aid, etc.), and they sure didn?t waste it on palaces, fast cars and fast women. Saudis and others in the Arabian Peninsula have mountains of oil money, but still have nothing to offer to the world, but raw oil and the Wahabi Islam. Jews had effective self-government in diaspora for centuries. Palestinian Arabs have no experience of self-government whatsoever. The reason why Israelis are reluctant to give up the heart of the country for peace is that they don?t want projectiles flying into West Jerusalem; just like in the good old times 1948 to 1967. Israel?s legitimate safety concerns, not the W.Bank settlements, stop the peace. So buckle down and get ready to wait another 230 years for the Mid-East peace.

August 2007 poll by a Palestinian think-tank gives these numbers: (http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2007/no62.pdf ) 51.1% believe in two-states formula, while 42.1% choose one bi-national, Palestinian or Islamic state. 68.5% demand return of all the descendants of the Palestinian refugees to their original land. (This will leave no place for a two-state solution.)

Your googling is going well today isn't it? You've forgotten a few things that you mightn't have known that you should look for, or might have embarrassed you so you left them out. How about the billions paid for companies by Warren Buffet? What about all the start-up companies (hundreds of them) each bought for millions by companies all over the world. Do you know what they are? How about companies like Teva and Keter and Checkpoint and Aladdin, that you thought were international (if you've even heard of them) but are actually Israeli? How about 'international' banks that are actually Israeli, like Bank haPoalim and Bank Leumi. Walid you overestimate your knowledge over and over again.

I was talking about a specific instance, not about the whole wide sweep of what we're discussing. I had no intention of excluding other interested parties.

Walid, you complain that Israel has received financial backing from Germany, Switzerland and the USA. Why would that be a problem for you? Obviously, the forementioned countries consider Israel worthy of their investments. You claim that Israel has received 100 bln dollars over a period of 60 years. That is just POCKET MONEY, I would say, compared to the 163 bln dollars in oil revenues Saudi Arabia will receive in THIS YEAR 2007 alone. What do Arabs do with their stupendous oil wealth? Why is there still poverty, slavery and child-labor in Arab countries? Why are so many Arab women unable to read and write? Why does Gaza depend on food production from... Israel? The answer to these questions is simple: the Arabs are still essentially THIRD-WORLD. They live in prison-countries and never heard of the French Revolution and its Bill of Rights. From the sale of oil alone, they earn loads of money, but they won't share it.

I'm an open book. Regards to you

"One quarter-to-one-half real peace does not make. As BB implies - the will is there but not enough of it." - Dana You are pessimistic about the Israeli electorate, and so do I. Israel can use a good leader to pull the peace thing off. Without it, it will not happen. Do we agree on this real case before us? I don't understand why you see yourself as an optimist. To me this is not a pretty picture. The only reason I can be optimistic here is that Barak is around, Livni too, and they might cooperate in a peace venture. The masses are asses, but they follow better leaders. You could say that history presented this situation and it brought up the necessary leader. But sometimes leaders don't rise. Example: On the Arab side they had the Mufti and Arafat; not good leaders. P.S. The Israeli electorate needed an exceedingly long time to become reasonable, since the outbreak of the first intifada in 1987. They are not there yet. Nothing to brag about.

It takes two sides to make peace, and the Arabs make it clear with every word and deed that they have no intention of living in peace with Israel. When Burston implies that there is no higher goal than peace, what he's really saying is that he possesses no values that he considers worth fighting for, including the survival of the Jewish nation.

Marge in Tel Aviv It`s my country that`s involved: not yours and not dana`s. Marge, If what you say were true than Dana, Mark Lincoln, myself and many others would not be here. But, since Israel is supported by America, we have a legitimate right to involve ourselves in the issues here. America pays a price for supporting Israel in its annexation of conquered land. We pay a financial, militarily, political and moral price. This support does nothing for America. If America?s honor and reputation were not being dragged thru the mud because of this association with Israelis activities in the occupied territories, than you would be correct to tell all that disagree with your opinions to butt out.

...yet again. Here are the macho Palestinians, and there Arab/Muslim interlocutors, believing that Jews have no right to a sovereign state of any size or shape in the midst of the Arab Crescent, and hence any Jew who lives in such a state is a legitimate target for any Allah-fearing Muslim. And on the other side we have those pesky Jews who object to being killed or maimed at random and wind up occupying more and more Palestinian lands as they attempt to protect themselves from destruction. Good comparison, Bradley!

Margie, you bragged to Dana about Israel being a first world country but you did not mention how it got there. Had it not been for the 35 billions collected from Germany on the ashes of the victims, 400 millions coerced off the Swiss banks on some charge or other and 60 billions in guilt-aid over the years from the Americans, where exactly would have Israel ended up on the world scale? You should keep a low profile on this subject as it is nothing to be proud of. And I haven't even started on Israeli land theft, water theft etc etc etc. I told you once before to not open subjects you know little about.

Actually, I do pity the USA of Lincoln's day, both North and South - they were having a civil war at the time. That's why they needed a hero. "Unhappy is the land that needs a hero." That's another version - both come from 'Galileo' by Berthold Brecht. Sorry you misunderstood this.

I started only lately to read you. Sounds good. All the best Margie, S

Tosefta - are you trying to drive me to Cipora's corner? It's freezing over here, consorting with the 'masses', even while you and S are in the cozy corner where great leaders are born (not made0. Alas, as said in my post to S, I could have written Cipora's #304 myself - and you must admit that post is a cut above her usual. Proving that for CJK to earn the newly coveted "Supearnest" title (minus the "cone") all one needs is to rely on reason. And on the matter of of leaders propelled forth by circumstances - I am with Cipora - at least when it comes to generalities. I'd agree that people such as Hitler, Stalin and Chrchill are unique - and once emerged, do carry major sway on events. However, conditions for their emergence must be there + they must be able to rise to the moment. Churchill e.g.,, did not carry greatness into the post war period, hence my contention that he was a 'man of the moment". As public sentiment changed, his usefulness went with it. And bye-bye greatness..

Thanks alot for your site. It's very interesting. I had hard time finding Israeli opinion stats, but for Palestinian stats I follow their Jerusalem Media & Communication Center since 1996 at http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2007/no62.pdf Their August 2007 poll shows: 51.1% believe in two-states formula, while 42.1% choose one bi-national, Palestinian or Islamic state. 68.5% demand return of all the descendants of the Palestinian refugees to their original land. (This will leave no place for a two-state solution.)

Here is what I said: "One quarter-to-one-half real peace does not make. As BB implies - the will is there but not enough of it." (dana) Meaning that the 70% number is misleading, since this needs to be normalized to the 40% of Israelis (vs 25% pals) who actuallly believe such deal is possible (only 1/3 on either side believed that meaningful peace negotiations will resume). The figures for Israel are well reflected in support for netaniahu - the pessimists' candidate. That's what I mean by the devil being in the details: no decisive majority for peace as long as the process involves any risk at all. Result: status quo. Is that acceptable? apparently so - to many (on either side). As for strange new alliances - funny stuff going on indeed. Try hard as I might I found little to fault in post #304 of Cipora's. Could have written some such myself. I agree with Cipora while you and Tosefta are suddenly in tune. Worse yet, I find myself in an unaccustomed Optimists' corner - brr...

I replied to Dana on my own behalf, #339, #340 and previous threads refer, but I'm glad to contribute. כל ישראל אחים :)

Thank you Shalom Freedman for a candid look at the situation dominating the Middle East at the moment. Indeed, 'It takes two...' Israel has made various concessions but understandably it is not enough and never will be enough unless she succcumbs to what it is the Arab World actually wants of her - which is to disappear altogether!

I knew but I forgot. Now, for support I must rely on Tosefta (and Margie in TA). Formerly my support came from you. Soon, I'll get support from Clickfool (since I argue now with Cipora). Cherchez les femmes...

The conclusions of the pollsters you quote are: ?The Peace Index? from the beginning of June, conducted by the Tami Steinmetz Center at the Tel Aviv University, finds that 70% of the Jewish public in Israel support an agreement with the Palestinians based on the ?two states for two peoples? principle. That's more than enough to win an election. Don't play with the details because Israelis are supremely pragmatic and go where it's best for them. How else do you think we're still in existence after sixty years of warfare, and not only in existence we're flourishing, a first world country in a third world area.

is something the Arab world does most successfuly .... and against who but none other than the little Jewish State called Israel. And Why? have they not sufficient land with 99.9% of the mass in the area that they have to work towards eliminating that little .01% on the south eastern coast of the Meditarranean? It is psychologically and geographically wrong Boycott because that little area on the Meditarranean coast has been the Homeland of the Jewish people historically and biblically for centuries, when the Arabs were still but Bedouins in the Desert. Consider their ambivalence in the case of the Arab Refugees who call themselves 'Palestinians' and their refusal to take full responsibility for these people who are of their very own while putting the whole onus on the Jewish State. Hence, this case will never be resolved THESE ARE THEY WHO ARE NOT MAN ENOUGH.

This piece is beneath commentary. There is a reality out there, Mr. Burston. Take a look at the Islamic and Arabic worlds. Listen to their propaganda. Look a bit at the historical record and Israel's efforts to 'buy' peace with concessions. I understand the strong desire you have to have peace. I think most of us have a very strong desire for peace, or at least avoidance of the horrors of war. But it takes two sides for this. Where is the other side?

Pity the US at the time of Lincoln? Why? Because of the South, or the North? Pity Israel because of Jews or Arabs? You are not a thinker...

As you said, the subject is too complex for posts. We agree to disagree. Tosefta said it very good. Big "men" have shaped history AS IT IS. Otherwise it would have been different. Soviet could have been Nazi instead! Masses are ready to "adulate" all sorts of big men.

does its work forcefully and successfully. No, it won't be funny when all these forces team up and form a united front.... and the only conclusion is that much talked about War which will finally erupt. This can not go on, such a hatred must find a way out. Oil money can buy excellent propaganda, but it won't buy Victory.

It doesn't take much courage to lecture two children who can't stop fighting. It would take a lot more courage to tell the world that one child can't keep paying more and more for something the other child doesn't even own: peace and security.

Other indications one can use to break down the respondents relative to specifics of the 2-state formula (remembering that the devil IS in the details) are considerations such as - support for netaniahu and easing of restrictions on the palestinians (38% and 25% respectively), as these are markers for hard line on security - dividing the "take a risk", "take some risk" and "take no risk" camps. If you follow the logic and do the interpolations/convolutions using a reasonable definition of what is meant by "risk", you'll arrive, not so amazingly at the approroximate division into quarters I referred to. For a double check - can use the numbers of israelis opposed to returning golan heights to Syria in exchange for peace (only 20% support due to fears of hezbollah?). The point I keep making is that what really counts is willingness to take at least some risk, as otherwise nothing will move, and radicals will continue to set the terms. Support for ambiguous 2 state is not enough.

One poll I'm happy to cite is "the peace index" by tami steinmetz ctr., available at http://www.geneva-accord.org/General.aspx?docID=2154&FolderID=45&lang=en And the associated one from PSR - Survey research Unit, from June 2007. The link above gives both israeli and palestinian attitudes on a range of issues. on the face of it looks like similar support for 2-state solution for both israelis and pals. However that's where the similarities end. Still, this was useful to give an estimate of the 'pure rejectionists" camps (call them hamas and jewmas for instance) - somewhere between 25% and 30% (slightly higher on Israel's side - surprise?!). Next, to look at the other extreme - i.e., support for 2-state based on '67 borders + minor adjustments - one can look at the saudi initiative, supported by about 1/3 of israelis, 2/3 of Pals. For israelis, I knocked I'd knock that % off some, based on how many Israelis define themselves as right wing (currently it's almost 1/2) ....continued

It seems to me that when you talk of Israelis you do not include those of your citizens who are non-Jews. I was including them, as well as the Palestinians in the OT. Israel and the OT together make up a very small area with a very mixed population, ethnically and geographically. You do all live together and attempts by some people to demonise others so as to maintain boundaries, psychological and geographical, will only cause endless warfare and suffering.

For centuries, (European) Christians were raised on the notion that the Jewish People had murdered their idol. Secretly, many still hate the Jews. Thus, in the Netherlands, the parties of the political left not only wish to 'appease' the enemies of Israel. I fear it is worse: they join their forces for antisemitic motives. In the Arab world, a similar pattern has evolved - generations of Arabs were led to believe that the Jews had unilaterally chased away the locals and stolen their land. Present day Arabs do not even hide their anti-Israel stance - it is a common and highly popular political tool. If and when all these forces team up to form a united front, it won't be funny.

Hitler never reminds me of anyone but of his evil self. Nor is your analysis in any way correct. Germany was able to re-arm, secretly I might add, and have a fully developed industry. You should not confuse a country's industrial and technological capacity with a temporary fiscal crisis.

I really do not want to argue this much further. I never said that there are no leaders who stand out, for good or ill. I am more interested in how they arise, and in historical processes. I do not agree that there would have been no communism without Lenin/Trotsky. Russia had been revolting for a while, and a leader would have arisen. I suspect that without Hitler there would have been a dictatorship, but probably a different one. This still does not explain the adulation of Hitler, or the bloodlust of the regime and the people. Lincoln was without doubt a great leader, but he was also a product of his times. Had there not been a movement for abolition, he would not have been able to get others to do what he wanted. As I said, the topic is too complex for posts. I agree that Israel could do with someone stronger and more respected. Yet, as I said above, I forget the post #, the conflict is not just Israel-Palestinians. That is what is most crucial. There are too many players involved.

"When Israel flattened that apartment complex in Gaza" How about all of Gaza or half of Gaza? No concern for terrorism involved. The terrorism came from Gaza, then Gaza is the part of finishing the deal. Thank God: Israel is ready at least technically for war. And that exactly I reckon - Israel is doing the minimum in his overwhelming power to destroy, while Palestinians are doing MAXIMUM of everything they CAN to destroy Israel. Therefore, the intentions of both people are different and known, as the rare case, because often they are hidden. Nobody, for example, knows your intentions on this talkback. Do you? Terror won't dessapear soon, rather will increase because the purpose of life remains unsettled. But there is always productive answer to terror: Conterterror! And brutal! Israel doesn't have any longer the right to beg for peace and abase herself. Israel has the mission. But without the will to life and resistance Israel won't succeed. Same as for you. Ludmila

The very name of being a 'Palestinian Jew' would evoke a certain distaste in most persons I would imagine.

A word in edgeways to yours # 226 to Danite What Obligation does the Israeli have towards the Palestinian that 'the only solution is to accept them as equals with equal rights'? Can you answer me please?. As far as anyone is concerned, the Israelis owe NOTHING to the so-called 'Palestinians' and if anything it is those Arabs who owe Israel for allowing them to live anywhere near the midst of the Jewish State..... if it should happen at all.

Of course they would be Palestinian Jews.

Majority of exits from Gaza are INTO Israel. Israelis are definitely not going to let more suiciders in. What would satify you for Israel to do? This is an honest question, not one of anger or tongue in cheek.

Mr. Burston, you have seemed to have forgetten an old axiom from Mao Tse-Tung, which covers a lot of human history: Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.

The question of who makes history, the times or the leaders, troubled earlier generations. Tolstoy, in his War and Peace, discusses this question (in relation to Napoleon's invasion of Russia). Tolstoy'd view is that the times and the crisis at hand make the leader and history. I personally don't accept it. Leaders have had a profound effect on history. Without Hitler there might not be WW2; without Churchill Europe would have been taken; without David Ben-Gurion the State of Israel would not have been established. There are a cuple of principles that are good to bear in mind: 1. NOT ALL ASSES ARE THE SAME. The masses in different societies are different. The leader stands above his asses, but is somewhat like them, just with some extra qualities. Jewish society was more advanced culturally and politically than the Arab society, and the leaders they chose also reflected such differences. 2. THE SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT MUST ALLOW GOOD LEADERS TO RISE. The US has a presidential system with fixed election periods. It happens to be OK for the US, but not for Israel. The US needs a strong central government, being a very large country which can succumb to internal divisions. If an elected president is a dud, the country can survive for 4 years with him because it is not under an existential threat. Israel cannot afford a president which essentially cannot be removed. I like the British electoral system which brings in good people to Parliament, each one carrying his own weight. From among them, generally, a reasonable PM is chosen. If he fails (Chamberlain), he can be removed swiftly. Both Thatcher and Blair did well for many years, but were pushed out by their own parties when started failing. Israel needs this flexibility. Bring in good legislators, and have good choices for PM.

Thank you Michael Jacobs for the simple Truth that few are able to grasp and if they do, to even have the courage to speak up. To quote you: "The Palestinian identity was 'inherited' to serve purposes of political deception, grand larceny and international terror", and because of the 'viscose liquid' now oozing out of the the desert sands, it is the correct thing to do to appease Arab Leaders and accept being misled. Today's 'Palestinians' are Arabs and yet the world accepts this fabrication and is even willing to give them a Homeland - not in theirs - but in anothers. Where else should Arabs be looking when searching for a homeland but in their very own backyard......? Yet the world is silent while the Jewish State faces the dilemma of giving these Arabs a Homeland in her very midst.

Pity the country that needs heroes.

"The only way for us margie, is to get to two states , take up the EU on its official offer of associate status and stay far far far away from them." Israerl already has had association status since 2000, but that's as close as you'll get without ending the occupation and other huge changes. I find it significant that you want to "stay far far far away from them". Your situation, which you apparently do not even see, is that you and the Palestinians will always live together, and the only solution is to accept them as equals, with equal rights.

www.youtube.com/luxcretia2

STOP.STOP.STOP FIGHTING HERE ON THE BOARD.peace

http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2007/no62.pdf - August 2007 poll by a Palestinian think-tank. 51.1% believe in two-states formula, while 42.1% choose one bi-national, Palestinian or Islamic state. 68.5% demand return of all the descendants of the Palestinian refugees to their original land. (This will leave no place for a two-state solution.) The biggest nightmare for Israelis is that the Palestinians wouldn?t be able to govern effectively, and projectiles will fly into West Jerusalem, just like in the good old times 1948 to 1967. And Ben Gurion International Airport will become unsafe.

I'm still waiting for references for your statistics. Please give the names of the polls you're using for your interpolations. Thanks.

as to your suggestion as to 'Israelis asking for forgiveness from the Arabs and negotiating as to whether Arabs will accept us in their midst'.... a good look at a map may enlighten you that the Jewish State of Israel lies on the south=easrern coast of the Meditarranean and not 'in the midst" of Arab nations. The Kingdom of Israel was there where it is now for thousands of years when the Arabs were still bedouins living in the desert until the West helped them enter civilisation. Read authentic history please to learn 'the Truth'.

Thank you for your "unsolicited suggestion to All Israelis" which was neither impartial nor anywhere near the Truth. Furthermore, Israel has not "STOLEN" any Palestinian land by which you mean land in the region of Palestine under the British Mandate belonging to ARABS because the ONLY LAND WOULD BE THE HOUSES, GARDENS AND GROVES BELONGING TO ARABS WHO FLED after Israel's War of Independence in 1948, leaving behind everything. They fled heeding a Call from Arab Leaders to flee from fear of the Israeli Army and it was a pity because the Jewish people even begged the Arabs to stay. Today, if there were to be any Agreement, these original and authentic Palestinian/Arabs should be able to have some arrangement by which they might be compensated for any land that they owned in the region. Nothing was STOLEN..... and for your information there are no 'Palestinian lands' other than the above i.e. houses, gardens and groves belongint to Palestinian/ARABS.

love

ALL who lived under the British Mandate of Palestine, behe Arab, Jew, Turk, Armenian whatever was known as a PALESTINIAN, BUT DID NOT HOLD A PASSPORT, because Palestine was only a region and not a State....... When the Jewish State of Israel was created, everyone had to revert back to his Origin, when Jews became Israelis and Arabs became Palestinian/ARABS.

Michael N.....ALL who lived under the British Mandate of Palestine were PALESTINIANS, behe Arab, Jew,Turk. Armenian whatever, but Passport because Palestine was only a Region and not a State UNTIL THIS VERY DAY.But after the creation of the Jewish State of Israel, every one who was a Palestinian had to revert backj to his original identity when Jews then became Israelis, Turks became Turks an d not Palestinians, and Arabs became PALESTINIAN/ARABS.

My kids have to wear their seatbelts or we go nowhere. In Brad's book, that makes me super macho! Woo hoo!

Here we don't agree. What you are saying sounds (too) correct but rather stereotype. Actually you contradict yourself with "Had Hitler been incarcerated for the number of years that he actually deserved for the failed putch, there might not have been a Nazi ascendency." As about conditions to come to power, I made my remarks in the addendum. All in all, no Nazi without Hitler/Goebels, no Soviet without Lenin/Trotzki, no India (as we know it) without Gandhi, etc, etc. Even America may look different without Lincoln. When things are getting bad as now in Israel, nothing but a "man" is needed to make peace. No "democratic" ordinary person as you put it.

You are in error - most of the lands of Palestine were and still are STATE PROPERTY. In 1917, they had passed from the Turkish authorities to the British, who subsequently handed them over to the Israeli government, in 1948. My point in my previous post is this: a Palestinian refugee can only be someone who was alive in 1948. In fact, some 150,000 such individuals are still around. But people born AFTER 1948 should not be called 'Palestinians', since an entity by that name no longer exist. Amazingly, from the 1950's onward, the Palestinian identity was 'inherited' to serve purposes of political deception, grand larceny and international terror. As a result, MILLIONS of Arab individuals now covet an irrealistic Palestinian dream - the destruction of Israel. In addition, their bogus Arab 'refugee' status gives blatant expressions of antisemitism and hatred towards Israel an undeserved legitimacy around the WORLD. Let's put an end to this whole game of treachery!

I am one of those guys who oposes the settler movement and was not sympathetic to Sharon, but after seeing the truth about who is on the other side has become a little less naif. What you seem to be saying is that peace is doable and both sides need to sit down, build trust and release the tensions, in a second stage make painful concessions and in a third one live in peace. I am totally for that, but we must not underestimate the forces that want to undermine this trend, which is happening before our eyes. The Lebannon did this mistake and is paying a dear price. There is no place for naifness when dealing with radical Islam.

Then don't read it.

Here we don't agree. What you are saying sounds (too) correct but rather stereotype. Actually you contradict yourself with "Had Hitler been incarcerated for the number of years that he actually deserved for the failed putch, there might not have been a Nazi ascendency." As about conditions to come to power, I made my remarks in the addendum. All in all, no Nazi without Hitler/Goebels, no Soviet without Lenin/Trotzki, no India (as we know it) without Gandhi, etc, etc. Even America may look different without Lincoln. When things are getting bad as now in Israel, nothing but a "man" is needed to make peace. No "democratic" ordinary person as you put it.

Cipora, contrary to what you said, Hitler was not the product of hyperinflation but the result of an abusive war reparations repayment plan imposed on the German people by the Allies that in 2005 dollars amounted to close to $400 billions. It was in fact an economic occupation since the allies had also taken away some of the industrial equipment and other assets and natural resources of the Germans which made them accept Hitler's messianic message of salvation. Doesn't that somewhat remind you of the oppressive Israeli occupation of the Palestinian people and the confiscation of their arable land and water and how it is throwing them into the messianic arms of Hamas?

...(as concerns posting talkbacks; thank you that was allowed to post so often until now - even today, another thread)... Obviously no longer SUPPOSED to go THIS walk for peace. Well, it'll be another walk, till peace is reached.

"when the allies bombed germany with 100 bomber raids there were no terrorists to target but they didnt care and killed 800, 000!" The fact that you choose to excuse the 2002 Gaza apartment complex bombing in this manner says volumes about you, Victor, and the twisted and corrupted nature of your logic. By any standards (but clearly not yours), the 2002 bombing was inexcusable, and the chorus of international condemnation was so great that even the Israelis were forced to apologise.

"the mail address is genuine and receives massages" Is that a Freudian slip, Victor? (;-) Try giving the board a real email address, one that isn't as dumpable as Boxlotto and Hotmail, and I might be more impressed.

You are in error - most of the lands of Palestine were and still are STATE PROPERTY. In 1917, they had passed from the Turkish authorities to the British, who subsequently handed them over to the Israeli government, in 1948. But the point I was making in my previous post is this: the only ORIGINAL Palistinian refugees are those who were actually alive in 1948. Today, of those individuals, some 150,000 are still around. Their offspring should definitely NOT be considered as refugees. From the 1950's onward, the Palestinian refugee status has served the purposes of political deception, grand larceny and terror. People who live in Gaza and the WB even covet their status of refugee as if it were some kind of national identity. In addition, the inherited Palestinian refugee status has given the practice of antisemitism and the hatred towards Israel an aura of 'legitimacy' they certainly do NOT deserve. Let's put an end to this whole game of theft and treachery!

History is too complex to give such prominenece to leadership. Bush was elected on a domestic platform, but was thrown unto the world stage by nine eleven. Nine eleven itself was a consequence of many blunders by many presidents and agencies. There probably would have been no Hitler if not for the hyper-inflation and unemployment of the thirties. Had Hitler been incarcerated for the number of years that he actually deserved for the failed putch, there might not have been a Nazi ascendency. The idea that the masses are asses is just one that sounds good, but is not true. If it were, we would not have democracies. Democracies are as much the product of ordinary people, if not more, than of leaders. On the other hand, leaders, for the most part, are quite ordinary. There are exceptions, but not many. Much in history has to do with chance events. The mind does not like to accept this since people need structure and predictibility.

Fill in the dots (no cheating!) Everybody of this age is ... Everybody of this sex is... Everybody born in South Africa is... Everybody born in Ireland is... All black people are ... All Arabs are .... All Jews are.....

Address me directly: don't be so afraid. Just be polite and I won't bite. A boor (as in boorish) is mannerless and without the knowledge of how to behave politely. Now it's interesting that you say you are a Christian but find pigs filthy. Don't you eat pork?

If it's only kicking and screaming they'll go to the signing we'll take them along with us. Even if they don't want it, we do.

Deals are deals. They all have history. I tried to explain that you before. Contracts between countries aren't dollies' tea parties. There's behind the scenes wheeling and dealing that you won't read of for another hundred years it was so secret. You never get to the end of it. Don't be so naive as to think because it's Israel it has to be 'held to a higher standard'.

The first word clearly should be 'our' and not 'your'

when the allies bombed germany with 100 bomber raids there were no terrorists to target but they didnt care and killed 800, 000! no did the usa when clinton bombed belgrade recently !! clickfoolyou are not only a coward but a hypocrite !!

Thank you, Clickfool. I feel you are okey. have a great day, too. I wish everyone have great day, today. even haaretz :) Atilla Karagözoğlu

You must be very naive to think Hezballah would disarm after getting the Shebaa Farms(which belong to Syria by the way). Hizballah is Iran's long arm, the southern post of Iran and will do whatever its' bosses will order it. The end of Hizballah will come only with the end of the Iranian mafia.

the mail address is genuine and receives massages so why is it not genuine and free !!

"So the intentions of two people are different... and intentions are everything, be it the war or peace." Do you reckon, Ludmila? The facts suggest otherwise. When Israel flattened that apartment complex in Gaza in 2002 they KNEW that a 1-tonne bomb would kill countless innocent civilians, including children. Yet they went ahead. They simply didn't care. They wanted to whack one old Hamas leader and the Palestinian death toll was of no concern to them. So don't prate piously about the Israelis, Ludmila. It's nauseating to read so early in the morning.

"NOT ME. MOSTLY I AM NUDE WITH MY HEART" Have a great day, Atilla!

Olmert not man enough to swap himself with Shalit

"victorh@boxlotto.com" Interesting that the email address you offer, Victor, is that of a Californian lottery and bingo company. Folk might be interested to read the following: http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/207/ripoff0207023.htm Give us all your real email address, Victor, and I might be more impressed.

Mr Burston,it is not Israel,that has to make peace,but the other side that has to show that they want peace and not the destruction of Israel.When you can bring forward people from the other side,that will accept Isrel's existance,then maybe peace can be made.

Of course, the leaders often (but not always) capitalise on the masses' worst instincts, but that's exactly where masses can be turned around because bad instincts are not normaly the majority. Example: suicide bombing is not a mass pleasure.

Israel does not wish to be in the midst of ARAB COUNTRIES The Kingdom of Israel was where it is now,for thousands of years when the Arabs were still living in the Desert. Israel lies on the South-eastern coast of the Meditarranean and NOT IN THE MIDST OF ARAB COUNTRIES! Look at your map and go to a proper school to learn authentic history. Unfortunately for Israel, Arab Countries grew out of the Desert and became adjacent to it.

too much, maybe later. BUT I agreed totally with Tosefta. In general, blaming people instead of leaders means you didn't understand "masses are asses" - again and again your superficiality. Marat, Robespierre did the French revolution. In fact, you shouldn't even blame the Germans in the early 30's. Hitler and Goebels did it!! You know, fiery speeches! That's the f...ing trick!

To all Arabs and Palestinian/Arabs, No-one STOLE 'Palestinian Land' if you mean Land in the Region of Palestine, because there are NO PALESTINIANS YET, because they are ARABS who lived in the region of Palestine under the British Mandate and had houses and gardens there and were known as PALESTINIAN/ARABS but they FLED after the 1948 war leaving behind everything. Their fault! The other 'Palestinians' are HOMELESS ARAB REFUGEES FROM ARAB COUNTRIES who call themselves 'Palestinians' because their own countries do not want them back. So they are a group Of DISPLACED AND HOMELESS ARAB REFUGEES SOME OF WHOM DO NOT KNOW FROM WHICH ARAB COUNTRY THEY CAME. With help from their 'Palestinian' Leader Yasser Arafat, also not a Palestinian but an Egyptian, they call themselves 'Palestinians' when they are simply ARABS.

If Lebanon behaved toward the refugees the way Jordan behaved to them and gave them citizenship, you wouldn't have problems with them. But Lebanon chose to keep the Palestinians in camps and not give them rights and look at them as dirt, so no wonder you have problems. Besides, the Palestinians are not your only or main problem, so don't play the naive! P.S. I didn't understand your last sentence.

""And your former President didn`t even have a massive stroke to land in in office by accident either - he was ELECTED." (Tzfonit) Huh? clarity please, Tzfonit. Me no get the point. Perhaps a little distance might help?" (dana) Olmert got in by chance - Sharon had a stroke. BAD CHANCE FOR ISRAEL. He would have NEVER got in otherwise.

I agree!

I voted, in the midst of conflict with the Soviets, against Goldwater and McGovern knowing full well they were (much) more honest and decent than the competition. That's not enough, it's weak! Lyndon failed indeed just as Bush and, more importantly, Tony Blair, failed: believing others (he, believing the generals, and B+TB believing their stinking intelligence). Nixon, although his famous "I am not a crook" , actually was a good president with Kissinger around him. Greatness is required not goodness.

You are in error - most of the lands of Palestine were and still are STATE PROPERTY. In 1917, they had passed from the Turkish authorities to the British, who subsequently handed them over to the Israeli government, in 1948. But the point I was making in my previous post is this: the ONLY original 'Palestinians' are those who were actually alive in 1948. Today, of those individuals, some 150,000 are still around. Their offspring should NOT be considered as refugees. But the inhabitants of Gaza and the WB have come to covet the status of refugee as if it were some national identity. From as early as the 1950's, the Palestinian refugee status has served purposes of political deception and grand larceny. In addition, an 'inherited' Palestinian refugee status has given the practice of antisemitism and the hatred towards Israel an aura of legitimacy they do NOT deserve. Let's put an end to this whole game of Arab theft and treachery!

KUTW:"On the other hand, you have forgotten the many Israelis murdered by terrorists " Clickfool: "Check the butcher`s bill, KUTW. Israel has slaughtered far more innocents, including children, than the Palestinians" Palestinians do the maximum what they can do to destroy the lives of Iraelis (partners for peace) while Israel is doing minimum to react having the advantage and power. So the intentions of two people are different... and intentions are everything, be it the war or peace. Ludmila

Here is unsolicited suggestion to All Israelites: Ask Palestinians forgivness for stealing their Land first and formost and than you might negotiate the condition under which they eccept you in their midst.

I swear if I hear another Israeli mention the Gaza pullout...!! As Israel just left Gaza and gave them complete sovereignty and power. All exits and entrances to Gaza are in Israeli control. The power and water and all supplies are in Israeli control. The whole population of Gaza were isolated and subjected to collective punishment because they elected Hamas. All of this and you come and tell me Israel pulled out of Gaza!! Israel didnt pull out of Gaza to give Gazans autonomy, it pulled it to make Gaza one huge prison with 1.5 million people in it!

I'm only responsible for the post # 1 and # 32.

Your former prime minister was incapacitated by a massive stroke, leaving Olmert to take over the party, which won the elections (I will remind you) on the disengagement platform. So he is in office because of a fluke, is incapable, and wearing shoes far too big for him. Youe president is also incapable, wearing shoes too big for him, and probably insane - but he was elected in the full democratic process. Choasen by the people. So he is truly what America wants?

Don't bother to respond my friends, it is a FAKE INDRAJAYA (# 28). You all should know, I'm not that crazy to say that kind of things.

Danite, we are not the ones holding on, it's the Israelis and the thing they are hanging on to keep the pot boiling is Chebaa Farms. Hizbullah had been offering since 7 years to disarm if I Israel would return those 33 sq km farms but to no avail and I'm afraid that it's no longer the only condition for Hizbullah to disarm and thanks to Israel's greed or stupidity, we are all stuck with this problem indefinitely and it could have been resolved so easily. Both Israel and Syria have proven that they have no interest in the Farms and is now occupied because of a technicality on maps. Lebanon, including Hizbullah had accepted that the Farms be under the UN until the ownership is resoved and Israel refused that too. It's the water!

and still here we are not man enough to admit Bradley Burston is right

I know that the favorite retort of some in israel (you?) is to use distance as the be all and end all to justify differences in viewpoint. But, in some cases, and I suggest israel is one, distance does make the overall view clearer. When inside the forest ~ all one can see are the trees. Wouldn`t hurt to listen sometimes to those who see broader patterns, because those who live in them are too caught up in the details to see that it even exists at times. BTW ~ most posters here are from outside israel, did you notice? Why is Bush still in power, you ask? Good question. But in the US it IS about percentages. Not enough in congress to impeach. In Israel the system is different. There are even votes of no confidence I heard, not to mention other party~based means. `And your former President didn`t even have a massive stroke to land in in office by accident either - he was ELECTED.` (Tzfonit) Huh? clarity please, Tzfonit. Me no get the point. Perhaps a little distance might help?

The Palestinian Authority hailed as heroes the terrorists who brutally murdered defenseless 8 months pregnant Jewish mother, Tali Hatuel, and 4 little daughters in Gush Katif in May 2004. Schools, streets and sports teams are named after Muslim human bomb killers. Palestinian Authority society are taught murdering Jews is the highest goal and attains paradise: http://www.pmw.org.il/AFD.html The majority of PA Muslims voted for Hamas terrorists. Hamas Charter: 'Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.'

Sarah, had the Jews not been parachuted into the area after 2000 years, we may not have close to half a million refugees in our camps and a constant state of turmoil provoked by their presence and your presence so anyone who does not understand what a Lebanese is doing in this discussion is out of touch.

This gives us a perfect example of how warped the mind of a muslim truly is.... If your credibility wasn't shot before that post, you can bet your ass it is now. I doubt any of your brethen on here are going to touch that post to your defense with a 10ft pole!! Well done....

Margie, I have answered you that the Sinai giving back was of no consequence in your effort to gather brownie points since the Americans paid billions to both sides to make it happen and are still paying. You cannot get any brownie points for having given anything back in Lebanon because Israel left after Hizbullah harassed it to the point where it could not take it any more combined with the Israelis moms who were demonstrating in front of the Knesset almost daily to have their sons back home. As to the Gaza pullout, I have posted the 2 articles describing the Israel gimmick for the 4th time for your benefit and to the point where I am sick of reposting them and you still do not understand.

ScotGuy, I said that Palestinians have this paranoia about Israel, I did not imply it was true and I was showing you that paranoia is rampant in both camps. Yes, Israel won all its wars against its Arab enemies and there is no denying it but there are no longer any Arab armies allied against Israel like before. Syria is practically begging for peace and to get back its Golan with talks to be without preconditions, Lebanon is saying to give back the 33 sq km of Chebaa Farms and that would be the end of the armed Hizbullah and the Palestinian are asking for a decent part of the WB. You can see that the Arabs shopping list is not long at all and this story takes us back to full circle that Israel will not talk peace until it has satisfied itself about land expansion. The money that keeps getting pumped by the Gulf States is not for the Palestinians' brown eyes but because they are buying the peace at home.

Tess, thanks for the tip.

When Bradley speaks of "manhood" it includes womenhood; it's in apposition to machoism of war. War has been always the "achievement" of "heroic" men. Peace is not about winning; peace is not about losing; peace is about compromising and creating a win-win situation. When we are talking peace we need to give up self centredness and ask: will the other side be able to live with it? If they will be able to live with it they will let us live with it. An oppressed person, an oppressed nation cannot make peace. They can only think of revenge. As long as God and Allah are invoked to legitimize land possession there will be no peace. Peace is a human endeavour, it's difficult, it's risky but highly rewarding. Qassams are a hollow attempt to undermine peace by those who know that their organization will die with peace. The cry of the settler and his raised fist are equal intimidations because they know that peace will dislodge them from lands that never belonged to them.

Arafat could had peace. He prefered stones and bombs. Stop suicide bombing and there will be no roadblocks, no retaliation, just jobs and peace. Are you man enough to tell the Palestinians to stop bombing and sending Quasams first and watch what happens next?

Brad's moral equivalenvy, PC Bs is very tiresome. No matter hoe obvious it is ( and it is SO CLEAR ) that the Palestinians are not interested in a true two state solution, Brad pretends that if Israel just does this or that, there can be peace. Earth to Brad : This is the same intellectually dishonest "cycle of violence" BS just turned around into a "cycle of peace" .

"The only thing that Goldwater and McGovern had in common was that they were relatively honest and decent men and were running against utterly criminal liars. The man who lies the most wins in a democracy." - Mark L I would not draw this conclusion. Both Johnson and Nixon were talented politicians and masters in some area. Johnson was a master politician; Nixon was great at international politics. It was enough to elect them both against nonentities (at least McGovern; not sure about Goldwater, but he was an extremist.) who happened to be honest.

Hi, The last survey I saw asking about attitudes toward peace was run by the Center for Palestine Research and Studies just before the elections that brought Hamas to power. I believe the number was around 80-85% of those polled wanted a two state solution and peace with Israel. You can visit their website and see if you can find the results.

Yes, I did take a cue from recent polls except that those never seem to quite phrased the questions right. E.G., what does it mean to ask whether people are `nterested in peace`? of course they are. The only valid question is at what price, and that`s where poll questions got hazy. So I extrapolated from them, using party platforms as a guide. Perfectly legitimate in the absence of something more reliable. The `less land` is where I`m guilty of lack of detail. No room in post. That means anywhere between 3 to 10% less, but what's important is less of `what` and `where`. need an article to elaborate - but mostly meant Geneva-light with room to negotiate. `This, after what I wrote to you, time and again, got me! I`ve seen people like you before` didn`t say you were either a cone or a drone or even a pod. But many on TB are. Margie is good example of a cone, yoram of pod. Drones too many to count (+ we're all one sometimes). ' but I had to pay admission.` (S) Was it worth the cost?

The Peace Now movement pressured begin big time over siani and egypt.they all pressured big time about the first lebanon war, they elected barak with the biggest win in israeli history, the reason being is that they felt Bibi "was missing a chance for peace"But of course this doesnt fit into your demonising narrative about Israel.60% of Israelis support a two state solution even though they knwo it wont bring peace, so what are you on about?? About margie what is the problem with her, she is very moderate, attacking her is like shooting yourself in the foot and makes you look rather silly and out of control.As for boor, I think she meant Boer, which is a bad mannered person.You can be quite insulting too.As for "how do I do"? Well I thank G-d everyday for his Blessings and I am enjoying the perfect aug weather we get here, dry and hot and cool at night all the local produce in the markets , cooking up a storm,training alot.All is well , how are you?

Why do you find percentages insulting? democracies are ALL ABOUT percentages. Polls will naturally pigeon hole individuals into few slots but that`s what makes a voting block, and representative parties. Last I saw, there are no credible polls in totalitarian countries. `Blaming people in general without serious polling is a miserable act` (S) Now, now. What blame? my break downs follow those few published polls with just a smidgen of extrapolation. Of course it does little justice to individual opinion (and in Israel there are 14 M of them, assuming 3 opinions/voter, a fine jewish tradition, which BTW, has now spread to the pals). The puzzle should be why aren`t there more polls of both Israelis and Pals to gauge opinions and shifts thereof? that`s what makes me a bit suspicious. Witness the absence of polls among e.g., pal refugees of what they may find acceptable. `Tosefta, your mentor, is adept at it` (S) didn`t know I had a mentor. As you know, he is far too optimistic for me.

Fair enough but whne an agreement is reached and referendum is held, I hope they are wise in their choices.

Why does every genius columnist seek to either blame or at least include Israel as the barrier to peace? Whenever I hear these beautiful, creative explanations I keep coming back to the question of how can Israel make peace without an earnest partner to make peace with?. Why should Israel be forced to make concessions to a party that feels entitled to murder Israeli civilians? When will the muslim world recognize and respect the Jewish claim to Jerusalem and admire Jewish tolerance for others in their sacred city rather than sneering at it and seeing it as a sign of inferiority and weakness? How much in the Muslim mentality must change before a legitimate partner can even come forward? Until then all this talk of how Israel scuttles the peace process is just the wishful dreams of those who deep down know that muslim intolerance towards others is hopelessly immutable so the focus rests on the only side they feel they have at least some leverage with - the democracy of Israel.

"I do like to have a Churchill become PM at a time of crisis. The American system does not allow it, and the Israeli system does not elect Churchills to the Knesset"(Tosefta) It's true that the American system is totally weighed down by the realities of raising monstrous campaign funds and party politics that pander to the richest lobbies OTOH and a radical activist power base OTO. Many a would be great leader got discouraged or tripped by a gaffe somewhere along the way, so a Churchill is most unlikely. However, I still think that a truly civilized country should be able to make do even with less than wonderful leaders, and the US by and large did, until the recent total failure of a Bush. S's point was that the I/P conflict is so far gone that only great leaders will do, yet the trend is away from that - as you point out. So between the two of you - it looks hopeless indeed. I'm uncomfortable cast as reluctant optimist, believing that good people can push through a bad system.

Lynn, Something not so well know is that one form of resistance is that some Arabs in the West bank pool money from other Arabs in order to buy land so that Palestinians do not NEED to sell to Israelis. I know a family that I met that this was their primary forms of resisting the occupation. But, I have said before. I see no problem with the re-establishment of former Jewish communities in the Occupied Territories. I believe those that were displaced deserve compensation. But, there are practical things to consider. The people there now have not been that "nice", it is untenable to keep inside a Palestinian state an Israeli Armed force to maintain them. I think that over time, with peace, I agree to you. But, I don't think it would happen immediately after peace. Also, they would have to be Palestinian Jews, as you have Israeli Arabs. Bound by the laws of the land they are moving to.

And then....let's let her get pregnant....and better yet...let's see how well she handles her medical care... Can anyone spell: P-A-THETIC!!!!!!

We will stand free and defend ourselves and out people and We shall staunch the spread of the Horde. You will cower like the slave you are and live at the mercy of the savages. Look at the bright side, if you grovel effectively enough you might get that harem keepers job you hope for, no competition from real men to worry about.

Time to come clean and reveal your true Hizbulla side. You know that you are a sympathizer and maybe a member. Contrary to the nonsesnse BRACHA is feeding you , we are going nowhere, we will eventually end the occupation so you may be getting more Balestinian guests in Lebanon to assisst in your annual ritual of killing each other. It must be the water or the Occubation. Who is at fault Walid. But at this rate you will cleanse the Christians and have a clear field for the Sunni and Shiite. Then we will see the spartks fly.

This has nothing to do with being macho. The women feel just as strongly as the men, and no one would accuse them of being too macho. The truth is the chasm between the two sides of the conflict is so wide, it has led to unceasing war. Pals feel that their birthright was stolen, and they demand it back, while Jews have no real incentive to accept Muslim rule. There is no easy solution to this impasse. Telling people to just grow up is a cop out and does not begin to address the seemingly intransigent issues that divide the two peoples.

Please provide sources for your statistics.

talking about?The zionists offered the Palestinians nothing but war & misery since the Austrian zionist Theodor Herzl,author of Der Judenstaat(1896) called for land grab & ethnic cleansing of the indigenous population.Many places were considered,such as an island,uganda etc. and the final the solution fell on the hapless Palestinians.zionists first bought land from absentee Turkish landlords.Palestinian farmers cultivated the land for many centuries by customary right,and they were evicted from the land.The Palestinians saw what was happening.The revolts started from that point on,the 1920s&36-39.At the end of the british mandate,the UN partitioned Palestine into Arab& jewish.The rest is history.Kindly look up some reliable historical accounts before you post your ill informed remarks on Palestine!

What a post. That was scaring him. You will give him Jewish inheritance as a threat so he goes away. Is that it? Its like saying to a home invader. Take all my money amd my Jewellery and I will sign over the House so that you will leave me alone. Never mind that a police car is right ourside and the door is open. Brilliant, just brilliant. Lets get together for a Corned Beef or Montreal smoked if I am in Montreal or you are in Toronto. I need a laugh badly.

If you are ever in Toronto , I will show you how hard I can push. I will be out of the country Oct and Nov,2007.

This is what Hamas is saying: ""An interview with Hamas representative in Lebanon Osama Hamdan, which aired on Al-Manar TV on April 2, 2007. Osama Hamdan: We in the Hamas movement will not accept any solution that would deny us our rights or detract from our principles. In other words, I will not accept a agreement saying that at the end of the day, Haifa, Jaffa, and Acre are Israeli cities, and part of the Israeli land. It should, at the very least, say that these cities cannot be liberated or regained today, but I will not accept any solution that prevents any future Palestinian generation from acting to liberate and regain the rest of the Palestinian land, if the current generation is incapable of accomplishing this. [...] This [Zionist] entity is incapable of making peace. This entity is based on plundering and aggression. Seeking peace with it is a waste of time. What should be sought is a true solution, which will restore all the Palestinian ""

For the sake of justice, Burston, Olmert, Livni, Peres, Barak, the High Court and the Knesset must move to Sderot. And for justice to be served, US Rice and ALL US/EU diplomats visiting or living in Israel who are involved in any way in the peace process must have accommodations in hotels in Sderot - why should they be deprived of experiencing the results of their peace process? LAND in exchange FOR WAR: the Jew-cleansed areas of Gaza have been transformed into global terrorist training grounds and rocket firing sites into Israeli communities. In Sderot, Israeli terrified peace process victims offered up as sacrifices - live in continual fear of constant daily rocket attacks. Their desperate pleas for help are cruelly ignored! The immoral peace process based on venomous Jew-hate and ruthless, forcible ethnic Jew-cleansing - REQUIRES Jews to ACCEPT being maimed and MURDERED. STOP Inciting Children to Murder! http://www.teachkidspeace.com/flash.php

how dare you. Who the hell is the rightful owner but the Jews? the Ottoman empire? the Romans? It's been passed through so many hands. And now it's in the hands of the Jews. And so it will stay. Let's pick apart every middle eastern country shall we? Where would you like to begin and then we'll see about rightful owners. You putrid scumbags. Why don't you go play at some other message boards instead of harassing Jews? It's amazing with all of the friggin world issues, this just seems to cause such obsession. What are you doing about Sudan? Iran? Iraq? Libya? Saudi arabia? UAE? Qatar? Afghanistan? Pakistan? Indonesia? All abusers of human rights, rights of natives, rights of other religions. You make me sick.

Tosefta, in the 8 years between 1964 and 1972 I learned a simple truth about democracy. In 1964 the right wing Barry Goldwater was trounced by the astoundingly corrupt Lyndon Johnson. In 1972 the American people, have abundant evidence that Richard Nixon was a totally criminal man, elected him over the Left Wing McGovern. The only thing that Goldwater and McGovern had in common was that they were revlatively honest and decent men and were running against utterly criminal liars. The man who lies the most wins in a democracy.

Pretty much true. I like the thought.

put women in charge,since men have brought the world to rack & ruin!

your way, Mr. Burston, and you won't grow any older at all.

Danite, when did the Israelis pressure their government to make peace? As for the Palestinians, do you have any suggestions? It's not like they are in much of a position to ask Abbas to try harder to make peace? What, make more concessions for peace? The Palestinians have drawn a line in the sand, they've said repeatedly that they support a two state solution, a sharing of Jerusalem and a solution to the refugee problem that does not endanger Israel's desire to maintain a Jewish majority... What else can they do? As for Margie, you can see how immature she is...she can't handle a historical narrative deviates even slightly from the notion that Israel has never done a thing wrong... Pathetic.. BTW, what do you think she means by a "boor"...is that the same thing as a Pig? If so, then I must say, she is quite filthy for slinging insults like that around.

Power of true wisdom and Power of true war. twice I heard power belongs to the most high Immanuel only has this power now. Pure power. Todays goverments help the false religons with trillons while old or new testament settlers they scatter thier power Daniel ch 12 Israel and Darfur etc. Yet the goverments now are having thier power scorched by the day worldwide , of all the elements including human and angel. Daniel 12 scatter power of the chosen people old or new get your power scorched. ISH 24 ISH 66:15. Also todays goverments have become a laughing stock by the masses and the most high PSLAMS 2.The masses and the most high now todays govs are liars and are already getting thier hell. Gen 7:7 ISH 66:15 do you know what time it is a noah did. Or live in ignorant bliss and miss survival. Head to the hills physical and or spiritual.

The original Oslo agreement was to set up autonomous areas for Arab self-determination. Curious how all of that has been forgotten. It did not say anything about the settlements. Ditto, forgotten. One after another Israeli red-line are crossed. Can someone tell me some essential red-lines that the Arabs have given up on? They insist on a total withdrawal. We should throw away Judaism?s holiest site. OK they will allow visitation rights. Wasn't that also part of the 49 Armisters agreement, which Jordan ignored. Plus, they don't even accept the claim that this is associated with the Jewish temple. You doubt that, well look at how they treat it. They tear out all artifices that they find. And, if we agree then they still demand the refugee right to return. Don't be blind to think they will drop that demand. So we still don?t get peace. Maybe an armisters line, again. And, with 5 million angry Arabs flooding Israel what will happen to Jewish demographics?

There could have been peace a long time ago.But the Muslim leaders did not want it. They promoted the tension between Israel and Muslims. This way the average working Arab would not ask questions. With all our oil wealth why are so many leaving in poverty. Why do we have to go to Israel for good medical treatment. I can go on and on.only when the Muslim leaders want peace will there be peace THey may want it now because the little Hitler in are wants to be boss

You are not in South Africa now Margie or with your "Boot" on some helpless Palestinian,s neck.Ibrahim can talk to you as he wishes. You have difficulty with the concept of "Equality"? dont you.Of course we all know why. Incidentally you are correct that terrorism did not start in 1967. Stern/Irgun/Haganah for example.Or are am being boorish.

Palestinians live a happy life in Gaza than your Lebanese people who still lacks security, jobs, unknwon future.

to those who fight as warriors? Idiot.

You like to push around women dont you gabe1?? I would like to see how hard you would try to push if you ever met up with me.

The fact is, nothing israel does or doesnt do its okay for the arabs,the need you have to express your hate comes out no matter what the issue.I hope israel will get out of Palestine soon, so we can put alot of distance between us and you.The point is you guys are incapable of living with fellow arbs in peace, how will you do it with Jews?? We really bother you guys alot dont we? and it has nothing to do with the Palestinians, we are the ones "that got away" everywhere else sunni arabs have been able to crush and control non sunni arabs, except in the case of the Jews.We are like a chicken bone stuck sideways in your throats.Let us go already, we got the picture.

And the person is.......Tzfonit. Change the gender from MAN, to WOMAN. Then you might get somewhere. Who knows,even Atilla seems to have heard it,no less than from a Jewish woman. It may prove difficult to persuade MEN in general to accept this concept though. OH DEAR I FORGOT! Didn't we have Golda Meir at one time,also Mrs.Thatcher.Both were equally renown for their character and judiciousness,and ability to perform near miracles(well,not real ones)but tried their best and did without delving into the treasury to line their pockets into the bargain.Right Tzfonit? By the way,I am not being sarcastic,and I do indeed think that women may try a different approach and get near to solving most,if not all of the problems,PROVIDING!there is no intrusion by the MALES!*********

Now according to 90% of the arab posters, Abbas and fatah are stooges of the israelis, and Oslo was one big zionist plot to continue the occupation "by other means",the level of dishonesty and hypocrasy they show us is a testament to the deep hatred and loathing and contempt in which they hold us.The only way for us margie, is to get to two states , take up the EU on its official offer of associate status and stay far far far away from them.Regards

Not all the Palestinians who lived in Palestine until 1948 were 'original' Palestinians and neither were the Jews but upon entering Palestine they obtained Palestinian citizenship. In 1947 there were 600K Jews and in possession of 8% of the land and 1.3mil Arabs possessing 92% of the land (some owners living abroad). The statistics are all there in the Survey of Palestine. The Palestinians who were driven out in 1948 were legitimate citizens of the country, many of whose families have dwelt there for generations. Neithe Palestinians nor Jews had exclusive 'right' to the land on any account and definitely not at the expense of the 'other'.

"Tell me , what are the Palestinian people doing to pressure their govt to act for peace." The ones I know are too busy trying to survive and negioting check points every time they want to move - their minds are fixed on daily survival issues. I'm not being facecious- it's exactly like that.

Ibrahim, you are very welcome to jump into any of my discussions any time. The more, the merrier.

Margie, you should start a Vaudeville revival skit with Peter, you two would be very good. I have answered you that the Sinai giving back was of no consequence in your effort to gather brownie points since the Americans paid billions to both sides to make it happen and are still paying. You can't get any brownie points for having given anything back in Lebanon because Israel left with its tail between its legs after Hizbullah harassed it to the point where it couldn't take it any more combined with the Israelis moms who were demonstrating in front of the Knesset almost daily to have their sons back home. As to the Gaza pullout, I have posted the 2 articles describing Israel's gimmick for the 4th time for your benefit and to the point where I'm sick of reposting them and you still don't understand. What were you teaching, kindergarten?

Sarah, had the Jews not been parachuted into the area on top of the heads of the Palestinians after 2000 years, we may not have close to half a million refugees in our camps and a constant state of turmoil provoked by their presence and your presence so anyone who doesn't understand what a Lebanese is doing in this discussion is out of touch. Why did it take so long to bring you home; were you in some kind of detention?

Since you mention my name: I'd call Gaza a giant arsenal from all descriptions and no, I haven't been there for many years. When were you there last? When were you in the West Bank last?

Gaza is not much different than Lebanon. Full of terrorists and weapons and occassionally the factions fight each other.

Time to come clean and reveal your true Hizbulla side. You know that you are a sympathizer and maybe a member. Contrary to the nonsesnse BRACHA is feeding you , we are going nowhere, we will eventually end the occupation so you may be getting more Balestinian guests in Lebanon to assisst in your annual ritual of killing each other. It must be the water or the Occubation. Who is at fault Walid. But at this rate you will cleanse the Christians and have a clear field for the Sunni and Shiite. Then we will see the spartks fly.

I think a lot of us understand this game. There'll be a winnowing out one and people who are rightly afraid of peace will lose their meal ticket. I wonder how many billions have been paid by UNWRA over the sixty years.

What you are describing has nothing to do with the questions that were asked of you though I've noticed that is an atribute that you appear to be fond of. Maybe you should explain a few more things to walid as he has never been close to Yesha but he likes telling everybody about it.

"is living among your own people.... doing what they do..... eating what they eat.... wearing what they wear.... speaking the same language.... Arabs live next door to the Jews." I couldn't live with many people Jews - just as my cousin had to flee Jerusalem - you're not my people so speak for yourself.I don't eat or dress as many Jews - I and many Jews have nothing in common with... I suspect ...YOU!! Except for a common collective history-but is that enough? Rather an intelligent Arab/ANYONE than a small minded Jew/ANYONE Enjoy the strife that you and the like-minded on both sides perpetuate!!

Michael N, please; we are having a serious discussion here. Keep those stories for the Jewish kids.

Thanks for confirming what I have been telling the silly and gullible Margie from TA. She refers to Israel gov offering peace from 1947, when Israel wasn't even established... Pathetic... Well, if you like the status quo, it becomes the job of the Palestinians to make the status quo as unbearable for you as it is for them... You'all have a very dark worldview.

Omar, What accusations do Hass and Levy make of Palestinians? Do they ever discuss the qassams, the homicide bombers, the fact that Jews can`t go to Joseph`s Tomb, do they ever discuss the armed guard that Jews need to go to the Cave of the Patriarchs? Do Hass and Levy ever mention even one thing that Palestinians have done or do today as we speak? Am I to believe that Palestinians are angels as Hass and Levy make them out to be? Am I to believe that Israelis are devils as Hass and Levy make us out to be? Am I to believe Hass who changes her story as she reads comments showing the lack of plausibility in her stories? AM I to believe Hass who has been sued and paid the Hevron community for writing a false story and slander? And you chide me for not buying into the propaganda machine? Please. When you criticise them then I`ll believe you. Until then: I`ll only talk of things I actually know about.

ScotGuy, I said that Palestinians have this paranoia about Israel, I did not imply it was true and I was showing you that paranoia is rampant in both camps. Yes, Israel won all its wars against its Arab enemies and there is no denying it but there are no longer any Arab armies allied against Israel like before. Syria is practically begging for peace and to get back its Golan with talks to be without preconditions, Lebanon is saying to give back the 33 sq km of Chebaa Farms and that would be the end of the armed Hizbullah and the Palestinian are asking for a decent part of the WB. You can see that the Arabs shopping list is not long at all and this story takes us back to full circle that Israel will not talk peace until it has satisfied itself about land expansion. The money that keeps getting pumped by the gulf states is not for the Palestinians' brown eyes but because they are buying the peace at home.

That was a great Post Michael and shows just how much you do know of the origin of the 'Palestinians' who were the Arabs who fled their homes after the 1948 War...... and the other 'Palestinian' conmen, nurtured by their Leader Yasser Arafat whom you believe should pay back to UNRWA and other benefactors for all the help they received.... It is to be wondered how many people actually grasped how authentic your post really was but having studied Ancient and Modern Mideast History, it was easy for me to understand and appreciate it which made me chuckle over it. Thanks.

Omar, what you are describing in your post 109 to Margie is a giant prison. And you are supposed to be thankful for Israel having pulled out but Margie wouldn't believe you because she has no idea what Gaza is about.

never. ever. love ?

let readers talk free. give passwords everyone posts I believe we can receive 1000's posts. if we see things will not be under control ! we find another job. Atilla Karagözoğlu

Margie, if you support Tzfonit as you said in your post 98, I hate to think what you would do to your enemies. You and the ex-shalom-salaam members have an odd way of showing your friendship to a fellow Jew.

Yes, I did take a cue from recent polls except that those never seem to quite phrased the questions right. E.G., what does it mean to ask whether people are "interested in peace"? of course they do. the only valid question is at what price, and that's 3where poll questions get hazy. So I extrapolated from the polls, using party blocks as a guide. Perfectly legitimate in the absence of something more reliable. The "less land" is where i'm guilty of lack of detail. No room in post. That can mean anywhere between 3 to 10% less, but what's important is less of 'what' and 'where'. That's why there's no room to elaborate - need an article for that. "This, after what I wrote to you, time and again, got me! I`ve seen people like you before, but I had to pay admission.." (S) didn't say you were either a cone or a drone or even a pod. But many on TB are. Margie is perfect example of a cone, yoram of a pod. Drones too many to count (+ we're all one sometimes). cf. admission. Worth the price?

Israel unilaterally withdrew from gaza, and the muslim response was increased attacks from the GAZA towards israeli civilians. An Arab Neighbour - you are are the problem, as are so many other muslims. People like you are the reason there is no peace.

for God sake, give a chance to poor brain guys ! I hate your talkbackers ! WHERE THE DID LEARN THAT GOOD ENGLISH :) I feel bad. I havent met anyone who speaks worst than me. ı hate you haaretz :) no name

It is all too easy to blame Israelis and Palestinians for the constant low level warfare that has plagued them for sixty years, at least. Yes, blame the leaders, call them midiocre, then blame the midiocre people for having midiocre leaders. Blame corruption also, as if midiocrity and curreption were so uncommon that they thrive exclusively in the barren soil of the tiny lands in dispute. Above all, forget all of the other leaders, if one can call them that, who obsessively have been interfering in the affairs of Israel, and thus of the Palestinians. Forget: Nasser, both Assads, Saddam, Brezhnev, Ahmadinejad, the East Germans, Nasrallah, Ahmadinejad, Carter, Bush, Baker, De Gaulle, the Arab League, the Saudi Royals, Putin, the UN with various useless leaders....Never mention that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is part of a much larger conflict. Blame the ones who never wanted a conflict, the ones who most suffer from the conflict. Never mention oil. Blame the masses who are asses.

You used to have 600-700 posts. now you dont make it, anymore. why ? think about that ? you are not that big shot ! mark this down please. just a news site you are, NO BIG DEAL. maybe I leave you in a few days. I got illegal call from some other webs. behave yourself, please. Atilla Karagözoğlu

Ibrahim, the way you speak about Israel, I think it is YOU who is 'clueless'. At the same time, you probably visit this forum in order to hear this. There wasn't and still isn't ANY Arab nation where individuals are free to govern themselves. Palestinian Arabs (outide of Israel) will likely not be the first ones to succeed where others have failed. However, that is all hardly Israel's fault - it is just how people do things in the Arab world. Arabs in Egypt don't have freedom or peace. Nor do the Arabs in Jordan, nor in Syria. They all live under some kind of an 'occupation' even if they call it by another name. Perhaps you and your WB friends could study some history and political science and learn a thing or two - instead of seeking to blame others for what are essentially your own mistakes and limitations.

WE ARE JUST CITIZENS. JUST LET EVERYONE TALKS FREE CHANGE YOUR WAY. BE DIFFERENT. DONT BE TOO POOR. Atilla Karagözoğlu

what we save ? what we done ? what we create ? we are not even too honest ! how can we can share something pozitive ? MASKS WE ALL HAVE MASKS. NOT ME. MOSTLY I AM NUDE WITH MY HEART. Atilla Karagözoğlu

I know that the favorite retort of some in israel (you?) is to use distance as the be all and end all to justify differences in viewpoint. But as it happens, in some cases, and I suggest israel is one, distance does make the overall view clearer. When inside the forest - all one can see are the trees. Wouldn't hurt to listen sometimes to those who see patterns, because those who live in them are too caught up in the details to see it even exists. BTW - most posters here are from outside israel, did you notice? Why is Bush still in power, you ask? Good question. But in the US it IS about percentages. Not enough in congress to impeach. In Israel the system is different. There are even votes of no confidence I heard, not to mention other party-based means. "And your former President didn`t even have a massive stroke to land in in office by accident either - he was ELECTED." (Tzfonit) Huh? clarity please, Tzfonit. Me no get the point. Perhaps a little distance might help?

WE ARE NOT FREE. HAARETZ LOOKS AT THE POSTS ! IF HE LIKES HE PUBLISH IF NO, HE CANCEL ! NOW I ASK HAARETZ ! IS THIS FAIR ? WHY YOU DONT LET EVERYONE TALK 100 % FREE ? THE GOD (G-D) LETS HUMAN BE FREE ! ARE YOU BETTER THAN H-M ? Atilla Karagözoğlu

why we write ? why ? to feel okey that we are in ? to give a help for better world ? THAN WHY WE ARE NOT REALY FREE TO TALK ? WHY WE BEEN CONTROLLING ALWAYS ? Atilla Karagözoğlu

Women in muslim countries are treated like pets. Like a cat or a dog. Loved at times, a nice companion at times. But your pet is also not treated like an animal, they can be put to death at will, you can yell at them, and beat them given noone sees it. You can throw them down from the sofa, or lock them into a room if needed. This is not how I treat pets, but many do at times, and its lawful. Think about the analogy for a few moments and you'll see the similarities. Scary and completly true.

are all these fights about hate ? than why we find ourself in hate ? been selfish ? why we need more than we have ? Atilla Karagözoğlu

I seen a movie today. prophet Noah was trying to make the ship. after a few minutes I switch the channel to some other on TV. The God (G-d) didnt let human be free in mistakes. HHE TURNED THE LIGHT OUT. Somethimes I wonder When world will have her last day. I believe in a few 100 years it shold be done. no need to wait too long. THERE WILL BE NO PEACE IN MIDDLE EAST. ITS AGAINST TO HUMAN CREATION. JUST DONT PANIC. TRY TO ENJOY THE LIFE. Atilla Karagözoğlu

You should check it yourself. Unless you consider, like hamas, that at the time of jihad nobody is a civilian, not even babies. Well, at least you admit Israelis are being killed by terrorists.

think about relations ! when you lose respect in relations, NO WAY TO REPAIR life really dont give second chance its better to accept it. no matter you have no chance to repair its always better look for it. Atilla Karagözoğlu

If you are really familiar with the word "nemesis" you know what I mean, baby. But dont get upset. I just intend to bring some light to these posts. It's not personnal. Salam.

Why do you find percentages insulting? democracies are ALL ABOUT percentages. Polls will naturally pigeon hole individuals into few slots but that's what makes a voting block, and representative parties. Last I saw, there are no credible polls in totalitarian countries. "Blaming people in general without serious polling is a miserable act" (S) Now, now. What blame? my break downs follow those few published polls with just a smidgen of extrapolation. Of course it does little justice to individual opinion (and in Israel there are 14 M of them, assuming 3 opinions/voter, a normal jewish tradition, which BTW, has now spread to the pals). The puzzle should be why aren't there more polls of both Israelis and Pals to gauge opinions and shifts thereof? that's what makes me a bit suspicious. Witness the absence of polls among e.g., pal refugees of what they may find acceptable. "Tosefta, your mentor, is adept at it." didn't know I had a mentor. As you know, he is far too optimistic for me..

You are correct in your observation. She denies that there is a neo-nazi problem in Germany.

No... I am Muslim.

I have been to YESH as late as 2005 and will be there again in October. So lets not try this nonsense and tell me what the harsh reality of life is now as compared to lets say 1966. You are right that the atatus quo would suit me just fine if the IDF would only do its job and eliminate the Terror cells and infrastructure. As a matter of interest I can live with the collateral damage in order to create life without terror for Israelis. Peace will come when the Arabs become civilized.

People who dedclare that places are polluted by people of a certain kind are the worst examples of intolerance to otehers. How would you feel if I told you that Israel was polluted by Arabs? It's disgusting that people who think like you have the nerve to have demands on others under the false pretext of caring for anyone. Shame on you - your true colors shine loud and clear.

Our governments have offered you guys peace since 1947. All we got were NOs and terrorism. If you think that terrorism only started in 1967 then you don't know your history. I feel pity for your people but more pity for us having to live with you on our doorstep. Your abrupt and unmannerly attitude to me is a manifestation of what I'm talking about. The situation wouldn't be as it was if the Palestinians had clamped down on the exploding people. You didn't and this was the result. Now you're all criticising Abbas for wanting to make peace. People who want the situation to be resolved don't criticise their leaders and peacemakers the way you guys do.

love

Israelis arent pressuring their govt because the last time they did they were made to be the fools by the dishonesty rampant in the ME.Tell me , what are the Palestinian people doing to pressure their govt to act for peace.

"Provided we are the same person,your credibility is in danger too,isn't it baby? Hey,"Baby"..do you have trouble expressing yourself? Your statement made no sense,which actually is no surprise as none of your other posts make any sense either...baby!

Follow the leader to commit a national suicide will not be supported by a jewish majority in Israel. There is no such leader in Israel today. The woodhead-Barak is not the one people will follow, and neither is the dealer Olmert, who always was a mediocre second and never a solid first. So huefta, keep on fantasizing in follow the leader suicidal scenario, but there wont be many takers in Israel for sure.

Your conversation with Walid are almost a family affair and as such he can get away with saying whatever he pleases about Jews and Israel and even likens you and Israelis to Hamas. Why not tell people exaclty who Walid is : An Hizbulla sympathizer if not member who hates all zionists but loves Jews and all Israelis are Zionists. Are you not the one that set up that extremist SS site and signed Walid and Bracha(Tzfonit)on. Now you are on one of your deluded peace kicks so you are putting on your charm to the various Arab Apologists here. WHY DO YOU BOTHER POSTING, have you not done enough damage.

Well said ScotGuy. For unarmed Israelis to put their trust in the surrounding nations would mean slaughter for the most amd slavery for the rest. What have 2000 years of trusting regimes got us.

Margie, First you should seek to understand, then be understood. I know much more about Israeli society than you know about Palestinians under occupation. You know nothing about the harsh reality of life Israel imposes on these people. I've been visiting the West Bank since 1973...I am guessing you have NEVER been there...The reality remains: Israelis can live with the situation today...they aren't energetic enough to press their government to conduct SERIOUS peace negotiations on the basis of an END TO OCCUPATION. Heck, at least half of Israelis believe God gave them the land... As for you and Walid...these are public forums...responding to messages is not at all out of place. Grow up.

There is a lot of noise in politics, and you have to figure out what seems right to you. Set your own standards, and live up to them. You are doing alright Bradley, keep it up.

First I assume that you are not applying for the job as you could not be called WOMEN as you do not have enough followers in Israel or the Diaspora for that.CIRCLE OF ONE. Did not the 4 z.not do enough damage with the Lebanon midnight run and even Barak Barah is now cautious. THE only real woman in Israel is no longer with us : Only Golda Meir had the balls and there is no one to replace her other than Caroline Glick or Nadia Matar.

Everybody wants a peace but nobody wants to pay its price.. some people just don't realise that a price for peace hightens the more time goes to waste..

Forgive me for jumping in, but it seems your discussion is getting too nasty to be left to its own. I think it is correct to concentrate on the leader of the country, who has the ability to have a clearer vision that the masses do. In Yiddidh, the saying is Oylem Goylem (approx. The masses are asses). The leader should be better than an ass. To produce good leadership the country needs a better system of government. The Israeli system is poor, as is well known. It has also been observed that the quality of leadership of the country has been going down over the three generations of leaders we have had. The present 3rd generation (people raised in independent Israel), consists so far of Netanyahu, Barak, Olmert, and all three of them have failed. Something is rotten in the State of Israel, and we know the electoral system is rotten. The world at large seems to have less than great leaders, but Britain still produces reasonable ones. Ben Gurion himself wanted to adopt the British Parliamentary system, but because the elections to the first Knesset was held under near war conditions (Jan. 1949), it was decided to have all representatives be of the "at large" type. The members found it comfortable and refused to change it. There are little prospects that this situation will change, unfortunately. Things might even get worse. The Russians are interested in a presidential system. Imagine Olmert as irreplaceable for 4 years. I do like to have a Churchill become PM at a time of crisis. The American system does not allow it, and the Israeli system does not elect Churchills to the Knesset.

It's clear when traveling around illegally occupied Palestine that the Israelis have no intention of seeking peace. The entire landscape of Palestine is polluted by illegal Jewish settlements. From Jerusalem to Bethlehem there is one long settlement, and new ones spring up almost daily across this blighted and brutalized land. The one encouraging sign is that more and more Israelis are admitting that Israel is destroying itself from within. It can't control its settlers, and its legitimate citizens are leaving in droves. The Palestinians know they have been crushed by israel and its big brother, America. But they are patient and peace loving people. They believe their patience will be rewarded. They can wait. They know Palestine will be theirs again.

well it is. it is. maybe we realy dont get the means from the books. women cant stay in home. we should let them work with us. they should speak out. they say women have 7 devils, man has just one. this must be lie. Look like all women will switch to Christianity. we better be wise as Islam and Judaism. love Atilla Karagözoğlu

I could not say it better. What is the alternative to proposing an agreement that can be internationally recognized? You don't trust other nations? Then Israel in the long run is inevitably doomed. Do you really want to create the Armageddon that so many Christian fundamentalists eagerly awaits?

Jeff and other that got annoyed with my post. I meant that our resources to tackle this issue is more efficient than in the West. Women have been consistently incorporate to all spheres of private and public works without frictions whatoever. Now we have politicians, businesswomen, academics, etc without the stress and the conflicts you have in the West. That simple. Maybe we are less belicous than you are in this field too.

once an old Jew lady told me that 2 years ago. She was right. I BELIEVE WITHOUT WOMEN'S HELP, MAN ALWAYS IN DIRT. Atilla Karagözoğlu

David and solomon had this power todays goverments have niether. As it says in Pslams twice I heard power belongs to the most high. The wicked ultra secular saul goverments more in denial than the philistines inherit not power.They the wicked weak inherit no rest no peace till they are consumed. ISIAH 24 Pslams 2 and inherit getting laughed at.Thier goverments that have a imminent end as it was in the days of noah. They had the power of corruption and violence in the days of noah as it is today. Nothin but fightin and whirlwinds of fire for the wicked goverments Daniel 9-26-27. A child shall be able to count the trees as it is written. The fires of the elements are growing by the day including the human element. This time by fire not water as it is written.

Provided we are the same person, your credibility is in danger too, isn't baby?

Letter #127 FATAH Covenant, the Goals, Article 12 www.fateh.net/e_public/constitution.htm.Goals HAMAS Covenant www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

whose media is it if it isnt your media ??? victorh@boxlotto.com why are you using a pseudonym ??

Wellwisher: who do you think you are kidding. What you are saying is that Israel must surrender or else. Imagine Israel putting it's trust in any kind of peace which would satisfy you.

nevim he outlines it quite nicely. Nothing to do with manhood or dna or religion,but a particular people's selfishness & greed.(not limited to them by the way).However,it has become a special problem in historic Palestine,the way out is the way in.Solution:israel has to withdraw to the UN Resolution 181 Partition Line.No ifs & buts,and right of refugees to return,East Jerusalam as Palestinian capital.Alternatively,a One state of citizens.

Without Israel having to give up one inch...not one inch the fears and predestined solutions of all those who say Never.no way, can be tested. The outlines of a solution are well known. Not fully satisfactoy to either side but probably sufficient to win a majority approval on each side IF, and here the big IF, each side felt the other side would abide by the agreement. To provide a momentum for such an agreement having the courage to place the agreement before a referendum before both the Israelis and the Palestinians would clarify what each community's majority is really willing to accept. If an agreement was accepted by referendum in each community the will among the majority would be strengthened to finally confront the naysayers and extremists within each community. The agreement for Israeli withdrawal would then be carried out only as the security arrangements agreed to like dismantling the terrorist groups were carried out first. Its possible... if you want it!

It's clear you've never been in business, Walid. Any really crucial business deal has a history much like the ones you've given me for the peace treaties. You can write a book describing human nature and barter and interpersonal vibes and reactions on most deals. You're just giving me the official lines. Those who were actually there probably all have very different and individual stories to tell. But you still haven't give me what I asked for: the comparative figures. That's the bottom line: how much land has Israel, given/sold/bartered for peace and how much is involved in this deal we're talking about?

What a wonderfully written article that strikes at the truth so many of fail to see. It does take a strong person (male of female) to seek peace, perhaps as great of strength as it takes to wage war.

"On the other hand, you have forgotten the many Israelis murdered by terrorists " Check the butcher's bill, KUTW. Israel has slaughtered far more innocents, including children, than the Palestinians.

A wonderful article. To those who demean his words a few comments. History is not a static rerun. Though one should always be aware of the past they should not be shackled by it. History is full of examples where old enemies become new allies. Old positions become new positions. People change...we just got an example of the difference between Mr. Abbas and Mr. Arafat yesterday in the rescue by PA security officers of an Israeli soldier. It is not 1967 but 2007. Positions have changed...some for the better and to be honest some for the worse in that there are new and even more dangerous players. Those who cite history often are those more interested in maintaining the status quo and their own positions and fears rather then exploring the possibility...the possiblity things can change...if we are courageous enough to seek it.

Forgive me for jumping in, but it seems your discussion is getting too nasty to be left to its own. I think it is correct to concentrate on the leader of the country, who has the ability to have a clearer vision that the masses do. In Yiddidh, the saying is Oylem Goylem (approx. The masses are asses). The leader should be better than an ass. To produce good leadership the country needs a better system of government. The Israeli system is poor, as is well known. It has also been observed that the quality of leadership of the country has been going down over the three generations of leaders we have had. The present 3rd generation (people raised in independent Israel), consists so far of Netanyahu, Barak, Olmert, and all three of them have failed. Something is rotten in the State of Israel, and we know the electoral system is rotten. The world at large seems to have less than great leaders, but Britain still produces reasonable ones. Ben Gurion himself wanted to adopt the British Parliamentary system, but because the elections to the first Knesset was held under near war conditions (Jan. 1949), it was decided to have all representatives be of the "at large" type. The members found it comfortable and refused to change it. There are little prospects that this situation will change, unfortunately. Things might even get worse. The Russians are interested in a presidential system. Imagine Olmert as irreplaceable for 4 years. I do like to have a Churchill become PM at a time of crisis. The American system does not allow it, and the Israeli system does not elect Churchills to the Knesset.

to get rid of that governement.....

There will have to be a lot of concessions made on both sides. I think one of those concessions would be to let the Jews who wish to purchase property in the West Bank be allowed to do so without handing out a death sentence to an Arab who wishes to sell to them and vice versa. That is one of the "laws" I find appalling.

exactly

Yes indeed.

It is a well known phenomenon in Israel. Once a leader brings home a peace agreement, the people support it. Menachem Begin signed a peace agreement with Saddat. In a Knesset vote, the majority of Likud voted against peace (including Shamir and Arens), but it passed the Knesset. Oslo also had a majority in the Knesset, and of course Sharon's unilateral evacuation of Gaza also passed. Exactly this effect allowed Barak to go to Camp David, even as his coalition collapsed before he left, leaving him with some 50 Knesset members (including the Arab parties who would support any agreement). Barak did not bring peace, so he lost his premiership. The situation today is better than it was in Begin's days. There are more people at the center, ready for considerable concessions. What we are lacking are good leaders and good statesmen. Kadima is run by a novice who proved his lack of talent already. Perhaps a Kadima under Livni in coalition with Barak could pull it off. It will come after the Bush era because this idiot is also a stumbling block to peace.