We can't be war criminals, we're Palestinian

Now you're messing with "reality". Don't you know the world has decided that Israel targeting those who's lives are dedicated to killing innocents for political gain is what the world defines as a war crime while those who fire Qassam rockets at innocents are determined to be heroic freedom fighters? Oh, wait a minute, what sense does THAT make?

Excusing away war crimes committed by the Palestinian government is not only unfair towards Israel, but is prejudiced against Palestinians as well. The belief in the equality of all people is not restricted to the universality of human rights, but the universality in the obligation to honor those rights as well. I believe the Palestinians are perfecctly capable of being held to the human rights standards of other nations, and if the elected Hamas government ever wishes to be seen as potential managers of a independant state, they should act accordingly within the authority they currently hold.

Hamas doesn't seem to care whether or not they are following international law. When you believe you are sent by God to fulfill some sort of mission, laws written mostly by the West do not matter to you. We cannot understand them by examing them through a Western lens.

1) Gaza: Wow, calling reality "ludicrous" is such a rational argument. Notice, however, that you couldn't address the 3 zones and that Gaza was under both PA military and administrative control, until 2000. YOu also haven't addressed that combat is different than "occupied." Was Germany occupied when the Allies bombed the cities? No, puppy. 2) Fortifications. That's you're opinion, and it's not supported by facts. There are legal and illegal settlements, and the fence doesn't encompass all of either. 3) Uh, huh. Sorry, little one, you've only been able to shout loudly "It's orange groves" as if that means they weren't 500m from the town. Very selective. My little one, one day you should take a course in logic, or at least rhetoric. You spend too much time sounding ignorant. 2)

I certainly do not "flee" from a discussion with you. "I`ve shown how Israel`s no longer the "occupier" in Gaza" - you have done no such thing. You continue to make the simplistic claim that if there are no roadblocks/patrols inside the gaza then the occupation has ended. You claim that the Olso Accords ended occupation in 1993, but that Israel then *re*occupied at a later date, and then *de*occupied again last year. A ludicrous argument. "I`ve described how the GC allows the building of fortifications" - inside occupied territory, yes, temporary forts are allowed. The point of the "fortifications" in the WB are quite different - they provide the foothold for settlements, and are thus quite illegal. "I described the sections that state we can attack terrorists even if they`re using human shields." - nobody disputes that point. I dispute that the Palestinians killed by IDF artillery were "human shields". Not even the IDF makes that claim.

I've posted about your lies on at least 4 other threads. You always run away and repost. I've shown how Israel's no longer the "occupier" in Gaza, and you fled. I've shown how you lie about the details of occupation in the WB, and you fled. I've described how the GC allows the building of fortifications, you fled. I described the sections that state we can attack terrorists even if they're using human shields. You fled. Now you're ignoring that Israel changed tactics w/Oslo. There were areas A, B & C, with the loosest giving Pals both military and administrative control over their people. Then 2000, when Pals restarted the violence. Israel had to move troops back in. The facts clearly show that it's not a change in "tactics of the IDF" that are needed, but changes in the mindset of antisemites such as Arabs and yourself.

They are so tiresome, because I waste a moment reading a post that is completely content-free. I say that Israel is still the Occupying Power in the Gaza Strip, just as it is still the Occupying Power in the West Bank. I give detailed reasons why that is so. I am not alone in thinking that, and not one of the points I raised came from my fertile imagination alone; they have all come from reading, and researching, and reading again. And your rebuttal? Well, here in Australia we would say that it is based on one thing only; the "vibe". You have the vibe, and it tells you that Israel is Good, and the Palestinians are Evil, and if Sharon says that disengagement ended the occupation, well, that's good enough for you. I am right, and you are wrong. You will have to try a lot harder than that bit of fluffery that you posted to cause me to change my mind on that. You've wasted my time, sunshine. Go away and come back when you have something to contribute.

Dear Johnboy It seems you are very reluctant to let go of your "occupation". Aren't you worried about the time when the situation will be so unambiguous that even you won't be able to pretend that there is an "occupation"? I mean what will you guys do then? Who will you blame for problems? I mean what excuses will you invent to blame Israel then? I think that you are hoping against hope that such a time will never come....C'mon now, don't be shy, admit it now, you know that what I am saying is true...don't ya????

The disengagement plan was unilateral. The IDF retained the right to reenter the Gaza *at* *will*, which is not the act of a country that has ceased occupation. The IDF claims the right to control airspace and sealanes. It controls all exit and entry points out of the Gaza. It controls the population registry, which means it can stop anyone coming back into the Gaza once they leave, or eject anyone who is still inside. These are ALL responsibilities that it must hand over to the PA if it wants to claim the occupation ended. It refuses. The occupation has not ended. All that has happened is the IDF has ceased running regular patrols within the strip, and maintains roadblocks on the edge rather than the middle. In other words, a change of tactics from the IDF, rather than a change of circumstances for the people in the Gaza Strip.

Because your understanding of what consitutes an "occupation" is too simplistic. For you it all begins and ends with soldiers on the streets, and checkpoints. Not so. When Israel invaded the Gaza in 1967 it became the Occupying Power. With occupation comes responsibilities, and these are spelt out in the Geneva Convention; the OP can not simply act like the despotic king of all it surveys. It can share responsibilies with organizations with the occupied land, which Israel has done with the PA since Oslo. But it was still the OP, and the Gaza was still occupied. To end occupation the OP must hand over ALL the powers and resposibilities to another body, and must make CERTAIN that this body can carry out those responsibilities as well as it did. Do that, and occupation ends, and you cease to be the OP. The Israelis DID NOT do that. Their pullout was UNILATERAL, with no additional agreements with the PA, and no attempt to empower the PA to step into the gap the IDF left.

Dear Sir, The article by Bradley Burston is a reasoned and well argued presentation. However, in my opinion, the psychological aspect of the tortured relationship between the "all powerful, self confident and successful" Israelis and narcissistically damaged, abandoned and manipulated by their brethren, and wallowing in self pity Palestinians, is understated, to say the least. Palestinians, as one of the most valuable tools of anti Israeli propaganda of the Arab regimes, are living a nightmare of a group personality damage. As emotionally and financially dependent on significant others, they have no incentive or capacity to abandon irrational and self harming behaviour, so characteristic of people with personality disorders. These people respond well to structure and imposed boundaries. Unfortunately, rational behavior is not their forte. Yours in solidarity, Michael Galak.

It would be more accurate to say that I don't want to ignore history, I would rather learn from it. Both from what was done right and the mistakes. It appears though that some people would rather repeat the mistakes of history. Now let's look at your two suggested options, starting with 2 first: I guess that's one example of learning from history. The histories of the Balkans and Rwanda where people with historical disputes and hatreds were forced to live together. Surely you cannot seriously suggest such a solution for Israelis and Arabs, unless of course you mean mischief on both? Now back to your option 1: You claim that Arabs are willing to implement UN resolutions? You are wrong!!! They are willing to implement their INTERPRETATION of UN resolutions and their version is a recipee for the destruction of Israel in stages. Just read resolution 242 again and compare it to the Saudi plan. You will find that the two are not the same!!!

There is a least one response to the never-ending situation in the middle-east : a large social movement. Because it is arguable that people around the world would all like to tell to you, people leaving in the middle-east, a single world , and this word is enough. Because now we are all fed up with all that mess. And we should not only report that to our representatives, but also directly to you, enough is enough. And what else but a recommendation from a considerable social movement for that?

Canadian Said: "The US was vilified when it SUPPORTED Saddam" A more accurate statement would be: The US was vilified when it supported Saddam who was also supported by most of Europe, Russia, China and the rest of the Arab world. So, they should have been all vilified! Canadian said: "and it is now Vilified when it is DESTOYING Iraq" A more accurate statement would be that Iraq is being destroyed by an assortment of Jihadis, ex Saddamites, Tribal chieftains and religious bigots supported by Iran and Syria. Iraq is being destroyed because those Arab fascists and supremacist elements would rather cut off their own noses (Iraqs) to spite their faces. In other words, rather than lose power and influence, they would rather destroy Iraq.

Its sad to see how you turned this conflict into a sports match. Who's ahead? they hit harder? who has fired the most shots? who scored the first goal? Come on, it's time to do something about it. If Olmert just opened the negotiation door, why hasn't anybody knocked on it? It may just mean that Hamas wants to still 'play' the game because it thinks it can 'win' more that way? all at the expense of inocent (or dispaired) civilians on both sides of the equation.

It's al they know and all they ever will know. it is their joy their passion. it brightens their day to see Jews killed. it's a reason to hand out sweets and celebrate. Terrorists are their role models, their heros. The emn with guns and bombs are worshipped and that will be the way it is for years to come.

Good reading on the subject from the UN website: http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/57c45a3dd0d46b09802564740045cc0a!OpenDocument This is an official interpretation of history away from our biases.

I said: "The current useless wars will consume both people and will radicalize all involved parties." Michigan said: "But you don`t preach that to the Pals, you rather encourage them to shoot Kassams at Israeli soldiers." Reply: You do not know what I "preach" to the Palestinians. I do not encourage any violence, but I understand that armies do fight and that civilians should not be involved in that.

If you want to still live in history that's fine. Many Arabs live in the past and apparantly that is right for many Jews as well. The current cituation is that peace is possible in one of 2 venues: 1. implementing UN resolutions. 2. Giving the Palestinians an Israeli citizenships and treating them as equal. Arab countries showd rediness to accept the first option, and the second option was never suggested. I will be happy to discuss any other proposals different than keeping the land while getting rid of the people.

Tim said: "the USA was vilified when it did nothing against Saddam and it was vilified when it toppled Saddam....Go figure..." Reply: The US was vilified when it SUPPORTED Saddam and it is now Vilified when it is DESTOYING Iraq.

It is amazing that so many responses talk about the "occupation" of Gaza, and then use that as a justification for barrages of war crime Qassams. Israel left Gaza!!!!! The Qassams not only continued but intensified. What is the excuse now? There is none. Anyone defending the Qassams is actually saying that there is a justification to kill civilians just because the Palestinians desire this.

Surely an army of any nation's prime task is to defend its citizens from attack --when rockets targeted or untargeted are hurled at its civilian population,it has not only a right but a duty to fire back on the suspected launch site of the enemy attackers--if that enemy is to cowardly to launch in plain site away from its own civilians but rather launches in the midst of its own civilian population (in effect using human shields to win some kind of PR victory and appeal to a "war crime" when the inevitable retaliation goes off target and kills the "innocent" civilians)--there can be NO LEGAL CONSEQUENCES to the retaliating defense forces when "collateral damage" to the human shielding "innocent" victims occured--IF the "innnocent" civilians don't want to be killed,they would stop the launches from their midst in the first place...that they tolerate or encourage such launces from their midst to take place abolves them from any appeal to "International Humanitarian Law".

What everyone seems to be forgetting is that Hamas and their ilk are Islamists. Their charter is to convert everyone to their way of thinking. They do not care how many innocents are killed in the quest to do this. They are no different from Al Qaeda, even though they do their best to give the impression that they are about freeing the Palestinian people. Their first order of business is to destroy Israel and then to control the Palestinians.

So tell me who really occupied the West Bank and who raped the West Bank. Israel did occupy areas that were not accepted by the Palestinian people to be their nation when the Brits pulled out. Israel did occupy areas that once belonged to Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon according to the rules of war. The "Palestinian Autonomy and Leaders" raped the territories over the years by refusing to improve the life of their people. They refused to provide untill after the people agreed to be their human sheilds and good little terrorists. Even after they signed treaties that would lead to the establishment of a Palestinian nation they refused to take resposibility for their militant activities and for the provision of the basic neccesaties of their people. If a nation is impoverished and the rulers are sitting on millions of dollars that have been donated to improve the nation then that is rape of a nation. I lived in Bethlehem when the intifada began and saw the changes happen.

The mentality of this palestinian leadership including all the way through Yasser Arrafat was to keep the Palestinians in poverty, hunger, and in need of a benefactor to be able to control them. Several years ago the Palestinian Autonomy was created giving the Palestinians the ability to rule themselves in the West Bank...What was done with this rule? Terrorist were imported into the area in the guise of Police; the rich, well educated, and anyone else that could started to leave the country; terrorist attacks from within the West Bank started to rise and with that reprisals from Israel and reoccupation occured. The whole while Arrafat and his wife sat on millions upon millions of dollars that the world had given the the Palestinians to rebuild, educate, and create a new life without the dependancy on Israel for jobs, water, education, electricity and other basic necesaties that Arrafat could not provide and did not even attempt to provide.

Your conclusion is wrong. The human shields tactic works because advance notice is given to western journalists and cameramen. Would the IDF want a massacre to be filmed and shown on world TV within hours? Of course not! It might be a different story if the media were not there - another IDF "accident" could so easily happen.

The Palestinians were also offered a nation in this land that was never solely theirs as an independant nation. They refused to accept the nation that was offered to them then. Israel established their nation and began populating it and also began establish her own rules and military and during this time Israel was attack multiple times by the surrounding coutries that refused to acknowledge the British Mandated, UN backed, Internationally reckonized State of Israel in a brutal attempt to destroy it and push it into the sea. After each attack Israel returned all of the Land it had seized during its defensive counter attack against the aggressing nations, except for that which they felt was needed to maintain the security of the people of Israel. Israel attempted over the years to improve the plight of the Palestinian people within her borders but was met with resistance from the leadership of the same Palestinians they were trying to help. To be continued...

Several commentors have stated that Israel has srollen the land from the Palestinians and that they rape the nation by occupying it...Well I question what nation did the Palestinians have? Prior to 1512 there were seperate nomadic tribes and a dispersment of people groups that lived in the land (both Israel and the Occupied terrirtories). In 1512 the Ottoman Empire concquered the a large chunk of the entire Middle East and ruled untill WWI when the Brits were given mandate over the area that now days includes Gaza, Israel, the West Bank, The Golan Heights, and Trans-Jordan. When the Brits divied up the land according to different treaties that they had made with different ruling bodies in the area the decision was to build Jordan, a Jewish nation, and a Palestinian nation. Jordan took all it was given. Israel settled in to take all that it could legally get according to the charter passed by the UN usung the leter of the law (the wall and tower sites were a bit sneaky but legal).

False Symmetries and one-sided preaching do not help: You say "then Islamic laws will become a reality in the Arab world, and Jewish laws will become a reality in Israel" Fat chance for the latter, but even if, there are no "Dhimmies" in Jewish law, no extra taxes on Infidels, no exclusion of females from school or work. You say: "The current useless wars will consume both people and will radicalize all involved parties." But you don't preach that to the Pals, you rather encourage them to shoot Kassams at Israeli soldiers.

If only I were a ski mask vendor in Gaza I'd be rich! We should all take up a collection and purchase Hamas some proper military uniforms. Perhaps then we could isolate their soldiers from innocents and reduce the collateral damage. Unless of course the killing of "innocent" civilians is of benefit to these heroic freedom fighters. I suppose that the rules of engagement are difficult to apply to a group of paramilitary troglodytes who bathe in the blood of victims on both sides. Before anyone launches a verbal assault my way please use your spell check. I do not take kindly to being insulted by illiterates.

Sam in UK, I wnent to the web site and read the piece as you asked. No, I don`t think Gilead Atzmon is a racist, but he does appear somewhat confused and guilt ridden. There is no doubt that the palestinian people have suffered form their own version of the Disoporia. I do find it interesting that under his "why is the issue a major concern" discourse, there is a striking similarity betwen his observations on the "supression of any comments between Evil and Zionism, and the behaviour of the Muslim world, in like wise supressing any notion that their acts may be evil, or that any of their religious or political leaders should endure and critism. It`s really two horses of the same color. Evil is evil, reguardless of what religious or political stripe it takes. In all honesty, until the Palistinians get their act together, and stop their goal of pushing Israel into the sea and so forth, there won`t be any real justice for them.

The way to stop would be Arab dictators, is to send them the message that they will no longer be tolerated. For example, by inviting them to look at what happened to Saddam. The other way to discourage dictators is by supporting democratic allies like Israel instead of labeling them simplistically as "occupiers". I mean you do know that the occupation came about because ogressive threats and attacks by Arab dictatorships against Israel? And....do you remember to what happened to Germany and Japan after WW2 when they lost the war to the allies?....No...? Then have a guess: THEY GOT OCCUPIED even though they surrendered and stopped their violence, unlike the Arabs, who didn't stop...That's why they are still occupied!!!!

Canadian said: "A person could oppose dictatorship and at the same time oppose violence." Reply: Have you heard the saying - "Evil prospers when good men do nothing"? Canadian said: "The Iraqi people had to pay the price when the US helped and supported Saddam and when the US opposed Saddam." Reply: Interesting...the USA was vilified when it did nothing against Saddam and it was vilified when it toppled Saddam....Go figure... Canadian said: "The number of Iraqi casualties now is higher that the casualties caused by the dictatorship of Saddam. So yes I oppose the US invation of Iraq as much as I oppose Saddam himself." Reply: The number of casualties is debatable conjecture. Some inflate it and some understate it, depending on their politics. However, with Saddam in power, the carnage would have continued for generations, his brood would have ensured it. As against that, if decent people would support the USA, the carnage will stop!

If we keep supporting the occupation and if we keep promoting dictators then Islamic laws will become a reality in the Arab world, and Jewish laws will become a reality in Israel. The current useless wars will consume both people and will radicalize all involved parties.

Tim said: "Dear Canadian You seem to have an interest message to the US: "Don`t support dictators"!!!! Funny.....I bet you were against the invasion of Iraq to depose Saddam`s regime....Right? Right? C`mon now....admit it...Right then, doesn`t that mean that you too supported dictators?????" Reply: "If you are not white then you are black" that is exactly the logic you are using in our statement. A person could oppose dictatorship and at the same time oppose violence. The Iraqi people had to pay the price when the US helped and supported Saddam and when the US opposed Saddam. The number of Iraqi casualties now is higher that the casualties caused by the dictatorship of Saddam. So yes I oppose the US invation of Iraq as much as I oppose Saddam himself. Sorry for not being simplistic in my opinion.

It always irritates me when I read about the "homemade" rockets. They are only homemade in as much as they are not imported from another country. They are made with proper machining and welding eqwuipment, and are filled with explosives. The factories may be small, but they are well enough equipped. They are not cut out from sheet tin, on a dining room table with a pair of scissors. They are properly machined and welded rockets. Z...period!!

will this get deleted?? 1. Racist remarks, as well as slurs on the basis of religion, ethnicity and gender. 2. Use of the terms Nazi, Hitler, ethnic cleansing, to describe the actions and policies of Israelis, Palestinians or other parties to the Israel-Arab conflict. 3. Disparaging remarks, personal attacks, vulgarities and profanities directed at other participants in the forum. 4. Advocacy of violence against individuals or religious, ethnic or racial groups, including statements which may be construed as urging attacks on leaders, officials, security forces or civilians. 5.Use of the phrase: "There are no Palestinians" or derivatives thereof.

So we agree Sharia law is likely with Pals. Originally you argued that Israel has nothing to be afraid of (Sharia law) if it lets in 4 million Pal refugees. Now you explain Sharia law in Iran with "When we support dictators and occupations we contribute to radicalizing the native population." As long as Pals will not rule over Tel Aviv their Imams will scream "occupation" of the Waqf (land ruled before by Islam). And are "we" also to be blamed for the initiation of the Taliban rule of Sharia, where "we" supported them against Soviet occupation and puppet dictators?

if the arab people are so worry about the palestine people, why dont you give land to your brothers?, sirya is a big country, and not all the land is using, why the arabs country dont give land to their brothers if they are really worry about them?, and why you dont give money for have a better live?, if you are the owners of the petrolium, why you always want the things that the jews have?, israel is a really little country, the arabs are the owners of 99 per cent of midle east, why you are so ambicious?

Dear Canadian You seem to have an interest message to the US: "Don't support dictators"!!!! Funny.....I bet you were against the invasion of Iraq to depose Saddam's regime....Right? Right? C'mon now....admit it...Right then, doesn't that mean that you too supported dictators?????

Sharia Laws took in Iran because the US government undermined the democratically elected government in Iran in 1956 and brought the Shah back. When we support dictators and occupations we contribute to radicalizing the native population.

There are many first generation refugees who are still alive. I did not see Israel to allow those back into there homes.

Dear Bruce, In short your massage is stating different reasons why ethnic transfer should be OK for Israel to do. And in short I can tell you that even though such kind of acts used to be acceptable before and civilians used to pay the price for the act of few politicians, but this is no more the case after WWII, when most countries signed on the Geneva Convention in regard of treating civilian population in occupied land. Now you might tell me that Palestine is not an occupied land but a disputed one instead and so it does not fall after the Geneva Convention, and I will answer that the spirit of the convention is to protect civilians against inhumane acts similar to those who were inflicted on them by many armies during WWII.

See blinkered? You too are an example of the pot calling the Kettle black....How often do we hear your kind admonishing Israel that just because some Palestinians are terrorists, Israel should not administer "collective punishment".....See now O' Blinkered one? Don't you feel better..? The truth will set you free...

If only Israel wasn't the pot calling the kettle black - than you would be correct. Palestinians are not saints and the zionist state has not been forgiven... You're kind of like the white guy using the "n" word with this one - you should drop it.. Sure - its a double standard and poor itty bitty Israel gets the brunt end of it... How will you survive??? "This is war" as your IDF commanders so frequently retort... The point is that israel shouldn't complain unless its well-fed and well-armed butt is setting an example. ISRAEL IS NOT SETTING AN EXAMPLE...with cluster bombs, one-ton bombs that level an entire city block to kill one man and so on.... So just for this one bradley - you leave me no choice - if your going to make this argument - I must retort - there is no moral equivelancy - see now - dont you feel better???

That is alike to what you are saying. The suicide bombers are there because they have been misguided by propaganda from extremist groups like Hamas. Israel is not perfect either; they have extremists factions too. But, to quote someone (i don't recall who) "If the Arabs laid down their guns, there would be peace, but if the Israelis laid down their guns, there would be a second halocaust." This is not to say that the Arabs are merciless killers or that the Israelis are perfect, simply that the israelis do not want to destroy the palistinians, but Hamas (not all palistinians)want to destroy israel. PS-i believe that israel should be divided into both Israeli and Palistinian areas, Jerusalem should be an independent state open to all religions, Tel Aviv should be the capitol of Israel, and for every square mile of land Israel gives to the Palistinians, Jordan should give up two. PSS-i try to be moderate. But i know i am biased in some way, as are we all. noone is perfect.

4/The Jews have suffered the most horrible genocide of the history. It was a ?modern? industrial genocide. If the effects of civil wars persist for one or two centuries (Spain, U.S.A.), the Holocaust will be the most powerful effect in the future than any other of any nation has known. My personal view is that the atrocities committed have left a sense of injustice in the most part of israel society: they have to do ?whatever? to be safe. So the killings of palestinian civilians (I mean children specially) are a pity but not unbearable) 5/ In Europe we don?t understand what?s happening because we don?t agree the same capital importance to the Shoa in the present, we think it was very important in the past. We don?t even reflect the Shoa can affect the future. 6/ Is not a way the Muslim world understands this and the anxiety of post-holocaust jewish to aggressions. 7/It is not possible the Israelis understand the palestinians because the lack of information of the humiliation . The necessary propaganda of a state in war has won, but now it avoids a solution (for example slogans like ?there is no partner?) dramatically. To seek an agreement it?s first absolute necessary to change the messages, visions of the media. 8/ When the blood will reach the unbearable level, will both parts seek an agreement?

Since you made this reasonable article, I would like to put other points into consideration: 1/ Can we determine morals ways to one part since we are in a context of occupation of other population (i.e. colonization). If we agree, and I do, then we subsequently have to end the occupation, border controls, siege, etc. as equal violations or war crimes (against civilians) that happen at the same time that the rockets. In other words: Can we order a moral way fighting, at our taste, if the occupation persists? 2/ In words of a historian, Israel lives in the Myth more than in reality (Judea vs. West Bank). The legitimacy of Israel comes for israelis from the text which is the base of their identity and survival all long history. 3/ Israel can?t be a modern state (modern in the french revolutionary historic concept) because its based in the rights of only a part of the population (Jewish) who has all the rights, the rest of citizen, based in ethnic origin, religion?can not access to the same rights only some of them, ( most, important like vote, but not the whole rights). While modern states have to be founded in the equal rights of all their members. Now this is a paradox for Israel, because it would endanger the jewish character of the sate, which was the original cause and sense of its foundation

Yes Kathy , and i told him my appreciation in his language . What's fine with Rene , that he has seen this . Sad there are no more Rene's

But the Dutches of this world will continue to ignore and defy all logic and will just continue their anti Israel mantra. The Dutches of this world are like people who close their eyes, block their ears and yell their own slogans at the top of their voices. They act as if their protoges, the Palestinians, are innocent babes in the wood who are just being victimized for no reason....They are sad little people with no credibility except amongst their own kind.

Charles Isn't it indeed nice to have someone like Rene come here to Israel's rescue and tell it like it is? Kudos to Rene Fries,and thanks a milion...

Prima gezien en gezegd , Rene . You said it as it is , and as people should see it . Your answer was very accurate . Not always we receive such fine talkbacks .

Did Sharia Law take over in Iran because of Israel? Obviously not. Pal population in Israel is INCREASING, including Christians, Druse and Moslems. Pal Christian population in PA areas is decreasing sharply, in contrast to Moslems.

I just spent an hour reading along my "favorites" (amongst which Haaretz). Maybe this would be of some interest to you: "The Jabaliya Refugee Camp in Gaza was the scene of Palestinian celebrations earlier this week. Locals celebrated the victory of female 'human shields' in thwarting an air strike against the home of murderous terrorist Wail Barud. Note the implications of this celebration: it demonstrates that PALESTINIANS KNOW that Israel does not seek to kill civilians wholesale. Palestinians do not believe their own propaganda about the Zionist thirst for blood -- otherwise they would not have been able to recruit those human shields. Human shields are worthless in the face of the heinous enemy Israel is supposed to be. If Israel placed 'human shields' in front of Hamas, they would be mowed down" htpp://www.americanthinker.com/2006/11/the_uns_jewobsession.html

Honour taking such a central place amongst the Arabs, you ought to consider the possibility that the raping of the entire ancient world from the Pillars of Heracles to the borders of India, and the subjugation and the smothering of hundreds of ancient tongues and civilisations could also constitute rape and ought, according to your "logic" give its victims similar rights of self-defence.

Oslo began in 1991. As soon as that happened, the population of Christiand in Palestinian Authority controlled land began to drop. Most fled to, gasp, Israel. For that and other reasons, Israel's Christian population continued to grow, as it's done since '48, until 2000. The Arabs restarting the violence caused many non-Jews, not just Arabs, to flee the region. It's clear that Muslims have treated all dhimmis badly, not just Jews. Claims to Christian persecution in Israel "at the same rate" are a lie. As for Sharia, it's another lie to claim it's the problem in this region. Muslims in West Africa, the Philippines, Britain, Canada and elsewhere around the globe have all demanded Sharia law. That's not an Arab-Israeli problem. It's a Muslim-"Everyone else" problem.

Which, of course, you did. I pointed out that the handover happened with the Oslo Accord, and it was only the resumption of Arab violence in 2000 that caused the reoccupation. When Israel withdrew, there was no need to handover anything, they still had the authority they had before the current violence, in the forelorn hope they'd be intelligent enough to end the violence. Of course, they're as filled with ignorance and hate as are you; So, just like you, they ignore facts and continue to lie.

If a palestinian is an Israeli citizen and commits acts of sedition against Israel, then they are War Criminals. If the Palestinian is not a citizen of Israel then in the same anology he is not a War Criminal. Didn't returning Jews buy land from Palestinians(for 10 times the price) in the 1940's and didn't Palestinians living in the new Jewish state they sold rise up with in Israel in the six day war and join Israels enemys and didn't the Palestinian Brigade lose and therefore forfet their land as enemys of the State. The US won it's land in War from Briton, France, Spain and the Native American wars and fights over a one hundred year period. Isn't fact an issue in the Middle East. Which Islamic nation would or will give back land they won in a war? That is how nations are built.

Under the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East the definition of refugees was expanded to include the decedents of refugees. In any case there are many steps which need to be done before having to deal with the refugee issue, as allowing the internally displaced Arab Israelis to go back to their villages and get back their confiscated land, as well as recognizing the multitude of unrecognized Arab villages within Israel. Dealing with issues as not allowing Palestinians married to Israeli citizens from entering Israel, and revoking residency cards from Arabs living in East Jerusalem could be the first steps toward building mutual understanding between both groups of people. What worries me the most are issues like allowing extremists like Liberman into the government. I view in horror people like Liberman who is advocating getting rid of the non-Jewish population of Israel and using 19 century racial language and attitude from within the Israeli governme

Pretty funny Tony, coming from a person whose "native" country is New Zealand having completely stolen it from the original Maori inhabitants an area 15 times the size of Israel and leaving the Maori w/ nothing but death or complete cultural assimilation. Jews at least can claim some sort of historical background for there presence in Israel, maybe I forgot, what is the claim for any Anglo inhabitants in New Zealand?

"With the Jewish Settlements, the West Bank has become defacto an apartheid system." - Your argument is still weak. What you call "apartheid system" is realy a martial law imposed only after Arafat started last war. There was no "apartheid system" before brutal murder of two Israely reservists.

"The Palestinians should be allowed to go back to their homes if they choose to, and many might not choose to do so." - You should remember the following. According to international law children of refugees are not refugees themselfs. They are nationals of a country of their birth. As I said before "right of return" never been granted to any ethnic group in any of numerous post WWII ethnic conflicts. Transfer to newly created homelands was implemented instead.

Johnboy, Thank you for setting the record straight on Gaza for Jeff. It seems many people still don't realize the strong hold the Israeli army has on Gaza following the pull out which really wasn't a pullout in a broad sense of the word as you so well articulated. I hope you will continue to remind people of this and demand a full withdrawal of the army from Gaza. After all, freedom is freedom--there is no such thing as half freedom! Many Thanks again for your commentaries.They are on point! Dutch

"Palestine is a country of immigrants." - This is true because most of whom we now call Palestinians are immigrants from other Arab countries. "You can find black Palestinians, white Palestinians, and even blond ones." - The same holds true for Arabs in general. Pals are no different from other Arabs. "French nationality is very much different from French ethnicity." - French ethnicity to a high degree equals to French culture while French nationality is just a citizenship. The more "French nationals" disregard French culture and heritage the closer is downfall of France. "Jews rightfully were allowed to go back to their homes in Western Europe after WWII, even though that they left Europe during the war." - Jews didn't start WWII and posed any threat to European countries. Germans who started WWII were not allowed to go back to their homes in East Prussia, Sudettenland etc. In every other post WWII ethnic conflict population transfer was performed.

David, The Arabs refused the first UN 181 Resolution as it gave the lion's share (55%) of the land to the Jews who were only 35% of the population at the time whereas the Arabs were 70% of the popu- lation and got a 45% share. Now you mean to tell me if you were on the Arab side you would have accepted this deal? Please get real. In addition, the Zionist gangs uprooted nearly one million innocent Palestinians along the border from their homes & farms to accom- modate the incoming Jewish settlers. Given the scope of this great injustice I suspect (if you were on the Arab side) you would have gone out and declared war to on the Jews too. I am at a lost to know how you came up with the idea that Israel had followed UNSC 242 since its forces are still in the occupied territories and haven't withdrawn as mandated. Lastly, once again you go with your usual nonsense about the Arabs declaring a continuous war on Israel since 1948 com- pletely dismissing all the peace proposals the Arabs made and others made on their behalf which Israel either rejected outright or undermined (see below). Then you expect an unconditional surrender from the Arabs. Now when are you going to get real and join the 21st century and let bygones be bygones and move forward for peace? Dutch P.S. Consider all the innocent lives that could have been spared on both side if Israel had been just and fair and abided by Inter- national law and accepted even one of these peace proposals? The Rogers Plan (1969) , The Scranton Mission on behalf of President Nxon (1970) ;Sadat's land for peace, mutual recognition proposal (1971); Carter's call for a Geneva International Conference (1971); Saudi King Fahd's peace offer (1981); The Reagan Plan (1982); The Shultz Plan (1988); The Baker Plan (1989); A continuation of the Taba negotiations (2001); The Saudi Peace proposal on behalf of the Arab League (2001); The unofficial Geneva peace initiative of November/December 2003. In 1993 Arafat signed the Oslo Accord which unraveled after Yitzhak Rabin's assassination (Nov. 1995) and Likud's return to power: 22 Arab states comprehensive peace initiative, based on the 2001 Syrian Initiative (2002); Syrian peace initiative (2003); Syrian initiative to start negotiations of Nov. 2004. ( Sharon rejected the last 3 peace initiatives.) Dutch

Christians are suffering discrimination in Israel and many Arab countries. As to case of immigration it is easier for Christians from the Near East to get visas to the West than their Muslim counterparts. The number of Christians is diminishing in Israel itself at the same rate as they are subject to the same hardships faced by the Muslims in that region. As to the Sharia laws the only way to stop it is by preventing the ongoing radicalization of the people in the region. A main way to stop that radicalization is by resolving the Arab-Israeli conflict in accordance with international law vs. the balance of power. The Islamic extremists did not become a main current till the late 70s and early 80s, about 20 years after the establishment of Israel and 10 years after the 1967 war.

1. Yes everybody should be allowed to live in the country he originated from; the same applies for Jewish immigrants to Palestine who should be allowed to live in the countries they came from. Currently Jewish immigrants to Israel/ Palestine can still go back to their countries of origin in most cases, even in the case of some Arab countries. 2. The Zionist organization of that time tried to establish a state in a place were other people have lived. The Zionist movement had evolved then but apparently not far enough to be able to look to other side as equal. Individual Jews should not bear the burden of their leaders and the same applies to the non-Jewish individuals including many non-Arabs who are not allowed to go back to their homes in Palestine. 3. Jews can now return to many Arab countries if they choose to, including Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, and Syria. More need to be done to correct the historical injustice for both the Jewish and Palestinian people.

Anyone interested in why the Jewish population in Muslim countries had to flee should investigate this website for historical information http://www.theforgottenrefugees.com/

in any way refutes my point. There was no handover of resposibilities to the PA when the IDF decided to "end" its occupation. The powers that it retained to itself before disengagement were exactly the powers they retained to themselves after disengagement. The occupation did not end. All that ended was the IDF practice of patrolling within the strip, and mounting checkpoints within the strip. They both moved to the periphery. Big whoopie. The powers and responsibilities that the IDF retained to itself on disengagement means that it is still the Occupying Power. Disengagement is a con trick, and guys like you fall for it hook, line and sinker.

Hardly any Christian Pals left in ME, except Israel. Since Arafat & co. returned after Oslo ?peace?, Most Christians left Pal territories, while few Moslems left. Christians before 1982 were large majority in Bethlehem, now small minority. Reason: Heavy persecution by Moslems. And Sharia laws are on their way in Egypt, Jordan and possibly Syria. The Islamist opposition is getting stronger all the time. The Hamas Pal government (?) certainly is committed to Sharia Laws.

1.Please answer this question: Are you for Right of Return of Germans to Poland, Russia, and Sudeten now, after 60 years of peace? Should Germans start shooting Missiles into those countries if not granted this right? 2.The Jews did not start WWII or tried to eradicate Austrian, Polish, French or German independence. In contrast, the Pals attempted to both eradicate and exterminate Israel, and their leader Husseini promised to ?throw all Jews into the sea? ?in a massacre not seen since the Mongolians?. 3.A 1000 times more Palestinians returned to Israel then Jews returned to Arab/Moslem countries.

I am on Holiday weekend, with bad internet, but it does say (appended?) that the English version takes precedence. Lord Caradon, the British phraser of the resolution, pointed out: 1. We voted on the English version. 2. An amendment to put ?all the? in front of ?territories? was defeated. This has been deliberately ignored by many. It is described in detail in the memoirs of the co-phraser of the resolution, the then UNSC US representative, Arthur Goldberg.

I am on Holiday weekend, with bad internet, but it does say (appended?) that the English version takes precedence. Lord Caradon, the British phraser of the resolution, pointed out: 1. We voted on the English version. 2. An amendment to put ?all the? in front of ?territories? was defeated. This has been deliberately ignored by many. It is described in detail in the memoirs of the co-phraser of the resolution, the then UNSC US representative, Arthur Goldberg.

Which friends you are talking about? I consider everybody to be my friend including you. The Arab initiative of 2002 predated the Hamas government election. The Arab initiative is still on the table, the Israeli government can accept it conditionally to all parties including Hamas accepting Israel's right to exist within internationally recognized borders. It will be interesting for me to hear what kind of solution you see for this conflict. What kind of peace you are looking for, within what borders, and how you propose Israel should deal with the non-Jewish native population of the land.

Michigan said: "Israel was willing to let all back for peace, but the Arab countries refused to sign on peace and forced one million Jews out." Reply: Arabs are willing now to sign for peace, so will Israel be willing to allow all refugees who choose to the right of return? I believe that it will be fare to ask for the right of return for the Palestinians and the Jews. The Jews were allowed back to Western Europe after the WWII, the same should be for the Palestinian and for the Jews who were evicted or those who escaped the war. Your examples of many wrongs in history do not justify another wrong. There were many massacres in history and that is not a justification for no one to commit more massacres. The Arab states should allow their Jewish population to go back, and some are doing so already. There was interesting case recently in Morocco, where some lawyers wanted the Moroccan citizenship of Amir Peretz to be annulled, as under the Moroccan law he is a Moroccan citizen as his family came from Morocco. Many Jews from the Arab world can still claim their citizenships if they chose to. Many others can not and this should be corrected.

Most Palestinian refugees live in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt. Non of those states implements the Sharia law. But to assume you are right, what abot the Palestinian Christians? Why you do not allow those to come back to their homes?

I was referring to the palestinians in the west bank, not Arab Israelis. With the Jewish Settlements, the West Bank has become defacto an apartheid system. Sorry for not making the clarification earlier.

I have found it . Political dictionnary of the state of Israel . Susan Hattis Rolef , editor . The Jerusalem Publishing House 1993 . page 267 . There are , as i said , two versions , both official . But in this case , if there is only the English one , no problem for me .

For me it's ok , it's the version i prefer . Can you tell me where you've taken that the English version is the only official one ? for me there are more than one , and this came to light with 242 , many years ago .

English version of UNSCR 242 is official one. Not French. It says so specificially in UNSCR 242.

Well said.. very well said. The pals are using the "victim mentality" arguement to tell the world that they are not guilty of any thing what so ever. Pathetic really.

Israel accepted UNSCR 242 ? I do no think [ and hope ] You know there are two versons of this UNSCR , an English and a Frenh , and they differ . The English says : ...from occupied territories . The French one ....des territoires occupes .One word here makes an enormous difference . If you do not understand : the French says ...from THE occupied ... I prefer of course the English version , as we can have adjustements to the green line , and retain the most important : Jerusalem . Other argument : it would be the first time in world history that a country that was attacked so many times , was victorious and is the sole who has to make concessions

Israel has allowed over the years the return of 150,000+ refugees, on individual considerations. It certainly would let more in if there were peace. In 1949, Israel was willing to let all back for peace, but the Arab countries refused to sign on peace and forced one million Jews out. Neither were Palestinian leaders then willing to talk peace, including Arafat since 1963, when West Bank and Gaza belonged to Jordan & Egypt. Remember "No Negotiation, no recognition, Today, Right-of Return is aimed at Israel's destruction. no peace" (1967)? After India-Pakistan war in 1948-9 there were tens of millions of refugees who never went back to their homes. Same for Greek-Turkish war and same for Germans in Slavic countries in 1945. Should Germany threaten war on Check Republic, Poland and Russia unless German refugee descendants can go back to their homes there? Jews would not go back today to Moslem countries. So why not grant THERE citizenship to Arab refugees living there for 60 years?

Klaudia hello Oh what it is to have the gift of "subtlety" which I lack.I understand perhaps our wires were crossed?However,I assumed,and I was right in "rubbishing" his misconseption about the fleeing Israeli/Arabs? You must have referred to another of his obviously.Have to (re-read his)if I can bothered.And since there was no mention in that particular response of his about the "apartheid" in Israel,I carried on and proceded regardless to set the record straight. The Palis' are definitely asking and obtaining exit visas to leave Ramallah in their hudreds for other Arab countries it seems.I shall be nasty now and say:Good riddance! Let us keep Israel free & at peace! Now about the SS.Are you prepared to give your e-mail address?Up to you naturally,curiosity notwithstanding. Our dear UKTW went,and out in disgust.As was Gabe and his curiosity,which proved his suspicion.Sow the ones who are anti-Israel with a veneer to disseble of course. For Klaudia #

You say "So you want to tell me that Israel was established just to fight against Sharia law implementation." No, but Right of Return would bring Sharia Law to Israel.

The first UN resolution was UNR181. Jews accepted it, Arabs didn't. Rich isn't demanding the Arab League end the war they declared in '48. He's not decrying their violation of the UN. Then there's UNSCR242, which Israel agreed to and followed. The Arab League has put out official statements saying it would never accept the resolution. What's Rich do? He blames Israel for "violating" int'l law. Until he calls for the Arabs to unconditionally end the wars they unconditionally began, he's just a lying antisemite.

Gabe dear I read your responses,and agree with everything you say and know that you care deeply like many of us do. I also know that you are an educated person and you don't have to prove anything to any one here.Your writing is articulate and up to a high standard.I assure you that I do notice it,and unlike me who hasn't the patience to produce a monumental piece I still try to respond,irrespective of Haaretz mood,and whim for them to put out the response.I do not care if I receive a reply.It doesn't bother me in the slightest.All I need is to put my point,and get it out of my chest when it is necessary and to defend our Country and people when we have so many detractors. I have said enough. But,may I say something to you Gabe?It is this:It would be more becoming if you desist in calling Danite "ma cheri". Whether you think insulting him in this way will produce any change to his "leftist" views or not,does not enhance your intelligence,and it dimishes your reputation.

Very well said and I agree 100%. It is almost Humorous to discuss Israel and International or any other laws in the same sentence. What a huge difference it would make to middle east stability and the security of Israel and the rest of the world for that matter if they would start by abiding by the UN resolutions, international law, etc.

Of course Hamas and Islamic Jihad and Al Aksa Brigade are terrorists. They not only kill indiscriminantly Israeli civilians, they kill Arabs and Palestinians that want to live in Peace with Israel. It is a silly to ask the Palestinians to take responsibility, since the entire Arab nation takes no such responsibility. It is always someone elses fault, the Zionists, the Jews, The Americans, the Imperialists, etc.

Wich international law ? the arabs will recognise Israel ? that's not what the PA hamas prime minister says , you are a BIG lyer . Over and out , means Stop no answer necassary from you , you are not serious , do not write the thrut , deform history in your favor . The first not to respect the UN decisions were your friends . That's all

Interesting Logic! By your logic in WW II, 6 Million Jews died and 20 Million Germans, therefore the Jews were more guilty of human rights abuses than the Germans. This "logic of numbers" also used by the UN, does not ascribe MORAL responsibility. Without a MORAL viewpoint everything is SPIN!

Dear Yariv, The lies are not mine. I refer you to a Haaretz webposting for an analysis of the IDF's violations of Lebanese sovereignty, particularly during 2003, and of Hezbollah's efforts to avoid retaliation, despite serious provocation. http://www.tau.ac.il/jcss/haaretz160804_en.html Fortunately there are still Israelis who wish to pursue the truth. I commend them, for it seems the climate is hostile. Only in their hands is the spirit of democracy safe.

Charles said: "Israel can and will not accept such conditions . Let the arabs return , No . Give the "palestinians" Israeli cityzenship , No . They can have The Gaza strip , the west bank [ not all ] and that`s it ." Reply: If you choose for your country to be a rouge state that does not respect international law, then I am not sure why we are in this discussion at all. The Arabs stated that they are willing to recognize Israel, so I guess that the ball is now in the hand of your politicians, and I hope that they do not share their opinions and attitude toward international law.

So you want to tell me that Israel was established just to fight against Sharia law implementation. Maybe you should look around and see that those laws with few exceptions are not implemented in most Muslim countries. SO don't worry no religious laws whether Muslim, Jewish, or Christian will be implemented in Canada. Some people will try all the time, but most Canadian including many bright Muslims and Jews come here for the simple reason that they need to escape the non-sense going on in their home countries. Those immigrants are the people who will make sure we do not allow any of those laws to be applied in a pluralistic society like Canada.

Most of those people are descendants of Palestinian peasants who were not involved in any of the armistice clashes of 1948. If those peasants were allowed to go back to their homes right after the war, they would've been exactly like the current Arab Israelis who you stated are not dedicated to Israel's destruction. Why you do not start by opening the door to only those who you think are not dedicated to the destruction of Israel. If Israel succeeded to make all of the 3 million Palestinian refugees enemies of the state then I think that the state of Israel is doing something very wrong and it should look into changing its course.

Palestine is a country of immigrants. Just look to the genetic mix of the Palestinians. You can find black Palestinians, white Palestinians, and even blond ones. The same applies for the Jewish people. I do not think that this comes from lack of foreign blood. As to your example of the French you are mixing the definition of the word French. French nationals will always be the majority in France, but they might happen to be ethnically Chinese, German, or even Jews. French nationality is very much different from French ethnicity. The French can not set their immigration policy based on DNA testing, as nobody will like that including many Arabs and Jews. Jews rightfully were allowed to go back to their homes in Western Europe after WWII, even though that they left Europe during the war. The Palestinians should be allowed to go back to their homes if they choose to, and many might not choose to do so.

It is typical, when you can not attack the argument you attack the author. I do not understand why people see an enemy in everybody holding an opinion different than their own. It is strange world we live in.

Israel can and will not accept such conditions . Let the arabs return , No . Give the "palestinians" Israeli cityzenship , No . They can have The Gaza strip , the west bank [ not all ] and that's it . They want a palestine from the Jordan river to the sea , without any Jewish population . No Israel will return "occupied territories" as 242 states . 242 do not talks about returning ALL the territories . over and OUT if you know what it means .

I often avoid answering arguments that are obviously not serious, or those that use dogma for making a point. For the simple reason that it leads nowhere. Palestinians came so late? If you are referring to Joan Peter's book, it has already been proven to be a hoax, and its voluminous references served only to cloack its inconsistencies. Yes the truth is we have to deal with frustrated and angry extremists like you, and you are right it is rather irritating.

Yes, no new agreements. In fact, the agreements that were in place were those put in place before 2000, when Israeli troops had pulled out of Gaza and the Gazans were responsible for self-administration. Instead, Arafat restarted the war and the IDF was forced to move back in. Was that return "unilateral"? Nope. Israel went back to the conditions agreed to in the '90s, and even further with the evacuation of Jews, but the Pals were unwilling to do the same, continuing the war rather than rebuilding Gaza. The Gazans have control over their lives. They chose war. You chose to support it.

From the BBC "Palestinian militants have fired rockets into Israel, hours after an unexpected ceasefire was called between the two sides." Not only are they war criminals by firing into civilian areas but they are liars too. At least they could have kept the cherade up for more than a few hours.

As always Burston is on point, hence this alongated trail. The travesty of the situation is that both sides leave much to blame. His POINT, however, brings to light the Palestinian shame within ther tragedy. Qassam, or not to Qassam, that is the question. Although the Israeli actions in Gaza brought upon some deplorable results, mayhaps if you don't sow the wind you won't reap the whirlwind.

You say: "I actually do not care what will be the character of Israel in 50 or 100 years, and I do not care if the Chinese or French become a majority within Canada in the same period of time." You might care if Sharia Law was forced on Canada.

Right-of-Return's aim is the Destruction of Israel. Those are not the original refugees, but their grandchildren who were raised to hate Israel (and Jews). The aim of THEIR return is clear. The Tories would have returned to US if they could have destroyed US independence. This is the similarity with Palestinian refugees third generation. It is not an ethnic dichotomy, as most Israeli Arabs are not dedicated to its destruction, it is ideological and political, like what you aptly said about the Tories. Bev understands this. I hope you do too.

His post is not the one I was referring to. My apologies. May the person who did refer to Palestinians as rats and vermin (note the quotation) know my post was directed to them.

well you wrote "Your comments sound rather racist". I am not going to laugh at this , mind you I almost did. Gilad Atzmon was born a Jew in Israel, grew up in Jerusalem and currently lives in London. During his military service in the Israeli army he witnessed the suffering of the Palestinian people at first hand and as a result became a committed anti-Zionist But please have a look at this link , and please be kind enough and let me know your comments. Would you say that Gilad Atzmon is a racist? http://www.serendipity.li/zionism/not_in_my_name.htm

Since when has the number of victims become a legitimate defense?! People like you continually propose that the world should legitimize acts of internationally defined terrorism perpetrated by the dozen or so Palestinians terrorist groups against Israeli's - just because they have a low success ratio. I suppose the terror groups would have better success ratios had Israel also decided to allocate their funds just like the PA, such as building weapons smuggling and surprise attack tunnels instead of bomb shelters to protect their citizens, or developing emergency call systems to bring their women and children to the front line in order to shield their "freedom fighters" from danger (instead of say evacuating their women and children from harms way) or the building and storing their wepons in civilian homes rather than in say... the PA authority bldg or perhaps in their leaders homes....

I dont need the love of the world, I only need the Love of my People.The Jewish People finally free of the failure that those like you want to shackle her with, the shackles of your limitations.I love Israel in the way she needs, you dont really understand her like I do.Israel and I were lovers once, and she told me the secrets of her soul.I remember those moments and so fight to see her free to live her dreams.Am Israel Chai!

Thank you for your comments Cipora, in my books you are very fine lady.Yes Tosefta has many issues doesnt he? Shavoua tov

All the points you mention - all the demarcation of responsibilities between the PA and the IDF - were ALL in place before disengagement i.e. when the IDF was clearly still the Occupying Power, and the occupation of the Gaza could not be disputed There was no hand-over of additional power or responsibility to the PA to mark the "end" of occupation. That's why the disengagement was UNILATERAL. The IDF just loaded into trucks and moved to the edge of the border. Nothing changed. No additional agreements with the PA. No additional power was handed over. Nothing was different except the troops no longer patrolled within the strip i.e. the tactics of the IDF was changed. The strategic reality of occupation did not. The IDF is still the Occupying Power.

Shalom Freedman, It seems you and others can't stop pinning the blaming on the Palestinians while ignoring a greater truth about your racist & fanatical settlers who are illegally occupy Palestinian land under the protection of the yard guards from the IDF & IAF and Shin Bet Services. Although, it is true the Palestinians have targeted mostly Israeli civilians the IDF & IAF in their response have targeted and killed Palestinian civilians on a scale of 2:1. Some might even place that scale on 4:1 given the Palestinian civilian population as a whole but I will keep my scale to known civilians. Thus the real villians in this conflict become the IDF & IAF and Shin Bet with their level of brutality towards Palestinian civilians and their immoral and disproportionate use of 21st century warfare in response to primitive rockets and stone throwing youths. Dutch

Ur post should be answered. It is clear, it makes sense. So let me try. There are plenty of Jews in Israel that would not mind oppressing u. But the preponderant majority of Jews would not allow it assuming of course that U ARABS were not dispossed aggressively against Jews.All the Jews I know assume that U ARABS r the source of the trouble. How? As Moslems u r slaves to ideas of the Caliphate and superiority ,we r the dhimmis ,that r the real source of Arab opposition to Israel. I will not delve into history here. But this is the Jewish perception of ur attitudes. Until and unless Islam changes and learns to live with others without these feudal ideas , u will think u r being oppressed while the fault will be urs -- u cannot accept otheres on their terms . This is the problem that Europeans r beginning to face as well. The end of it , unless the ARABs change is MUCHO TROUBLE for U ARABS AND MOSLEMS

1) The Zionists came and bought land from somebody's territory. While they did buy a minority of a land, they were given a state on the minority of the land. Currently, Israel only occupies 50% of ancient Israel. After a peace deal, it will own about 27%. 2) Some locals left when told that the Arab armies would kill all people that stayed. Others were forced out because they fought the Jews living in those cities. Others are still there. There are 2m Arabs still in Israel. Israelis have a lot of experience with getting expelled from lands. I would think that most Israelis over 60 were expelled from their houses. At least people care about the European ones. Nobody cares about the ones from Arab countries.

All I can say is: Heaven help Toronto if you are it's finest. You have no grasp of history whatsoever....You forgot the bit about the Arabs attacking the Jews after the state was established following the UN resolution to establish the state (Israel). A minor oversight on your part?

Sorry guys, you do not end occupation by simply moving your troops to the rim of the land you are occupying. You cease to be the OP when you agree to hand over responsibility to an organisation that can carry out the tasks you previously took upon yourself. If the IDF retains control of the sealanes and airspace, controls the population registry, reserves the right to reenter *at* *will*, and destroys the only power station then you really can't say that the PA have now assumed all (or even a significant portion) of the responsibilities previously carried out by the IDF. That the IDF simply withdrew unilaterally - i.e. *without* agreement with the PA - makes it even more blatant. It is still the OP. It never ceased being the OP for one minute.

Often when people are 'pissed off', they're not quite rational. They have trouble seeing things clearly. Like you, for example. Even though you appear to be normal and even intelligent, you don't seem to be able to grasp the basic causal relationship between the reappearance of the 'rampaging' IDF in Gaza and endless barrage of Kassams into Israel. That connection would be obvious to an objective, less pissed-off person. And even though Israel dismantled thousands of homes and businesses and left Gaza a year and a half ago, in your mind Gaza is still 'occupied'. I think what is occupied is your mind, by the Zionist bogeyman. And that's why you're so pissed off. You seem to be abnormally fixated on a tiny country a world away and its alleged transgressions. You need to take a vacation from Haaretz and the Middle East and chill for a while.

Thanks for your post Kathy. Sorry if I gave you the impression that I was serious.My post to BouSameer was intended as sarcasm in order to point out the hypocrisy of his position. Conditions for Arab Israelis are deluxe in comparison to ALL MUSLIMS who live under Islamic law. The freedom and economic opportunities afforded to them by Israel are wonderful. I was merely putting BouSameer on the hook for showing me the MASSES OF POOR OPPRESSED ARAB ISRAELIS FLEEING ISRAEL. I KNOW they don't exist.The word " apartheid" is now being applied to Israel as part of the leftist smear campaign against her. I gotta hand it to you Kathy ! Your post to me was REALLY POLITE, in light of the fact you thought I was serious.I'm on the same page as you, and enjoy your posts .Sometime this week I need to get a hold of Gabe 1 . I have had some time and reassessed the SS site. My characterization of SS was much too superficial - same leftist crap as here, just a smaller toilet. More later !

Bou sameer this topic will never end, because you refused to accept the thruth the history/proof of these problems.You and your people came "so late"? Should we rewrite the history?, that your people came for the last 3,000 years? Are you dreaming?. you and your people are the "true land grabber" of the "The promised land" given by God of the Bible to Israelites. Its very, very painful for you to accept thruth isn't it? To accept defeat? is "not in your vocabulary". Don't respond with a childish answer or go back school to learn about history, and watch your borrowed english.

Do not flatter yourself. Neither you nor Danite would be in my corner as Israel defenders. You do have potential but Danite is well beyond that and she tells everybody what her anarchist plan is. Her parents are most likely from the same neck of the wood that I am from and by throwing it at me she only demeans herself. I am proud of who I am aand I have principals , although not liked by the Left, I have never abandoned nor compromised on. I worked for 3 Fortune 500 companies and made it a point to tell them that i was Jewish when it was not fashionable. The vibes that i get from the both of you is that you crave attention and are willing to bend to get it. I tried to be polite to you and you insulted me for it. And when I confronted an Arab in a polite forthwrigh manner you insulted me again.

"I do not care if the Chinese or French become a majority within Canada". - I don't care either. After all Canada is a country of immigrants just like US and a multicultural society. But I do care if French become a minority within France. It will be a great cultural loss to a mankind. I also care if the only place in the world where Jews can defend themselfs will dissappear.

Sam, you don`t sound "British", could it be that YOU are one of those "people from every corner of the globe", living comfortably by the grace of the British people? Your comments sound rather racist. Sorry, the whole "oppressed people" thing just doesn`t wash. Wasn`t there a bit of a "problem" with "pals" in Jordan some time ago? Something about overthrowing the government to "create" a palistinian state? Would that have been a "crime" in your eyes, had the "Pals" been successful? Maybe, just maybe, if terrorism and war weren`t the primary "employers in the territories, things would be better, for everyone. After all, the Jews in Israel started with NOTHING, and built a nation. Is it that you really want a "homeland", or is it that you want THEIR land, as it is easier to steal what they have, than to have to build it your self?? Why don`t those Billionaire Mullah`s in Iran, do more than send you guns to build a nation? Could it be that the blood of the pawn is cheap to them??

I guess you missed me as I have not bothered with replying to you. You are by any definition a racist. You hate the Religious, You hate the settlers, You hate the right wingers.Please Ma Cherie tell me which part of the 5-10% of the people do you actually love or even like. By definition if you hate 90-95 percent of Jews in Israel or in the diaspora what do you actually care about Israel. These 5-10% will bail when the going gets tough. Hell you already bailed and are now only fihting for Israel to be shrunk to a size that will suit the Arabs. You MA CHERIE as I said before are a Jewish Anti Semite par excellence as wee as a Racist against the Jews and your post to Maureen Ann only illuminates this. Sleep well MA CHERIE Anarchist the masses of the world will honour you for this. I have gotten over my early childhood but what is your excuse.

You obviously have no grasp of the historical facts. 1. The Zionists came and illegally established a "State" on somebody's territory...there was no vote. In fact, the non Zionists were the majority and owned most of the land. 2.After the "State" was established the "locals" were either forced, or frightened enough, to leave. The Israelis took the "vacated" land. If you were a Palestinian, would you be angry??????????????? What don't you understand?

Go back to history. what are you talking about?That "Promised land" had been occupied by Jews for the last 3,000 years continously. You and your people came "so late". you are the land grabber.

NOW I understand your outrage!, Its not just that your a pawn for Jew Haters, and clearly believe that the world with out Israel and jews would make the world a better place, but you argument is supported by Khalids # 21 attempt to apply WESTERN law to Muslim thinking!! Brilliant!! The problem is WESTERN law isn`t Sharia law, and I`ve read NUMEROUS accounts of women in Iran and elsewhere, who were EXECUTED for killing their male attackers. With that line of thinking, Israel should be destroyed for resisting those who are trying to destroy it, and any attempt at defense should also merit destruction. Just like those poor muslim women, kill your attacker, and be executed, fail to resist, and wait for a male relative to murder you as an "honor killing" What a WONDERFUL religion !! Keep sending your US dollars to Hammas Natalie, you know they will be put to good use paying off "Homicide bombers" and building more Kassams!!

Just as settlers in Hebron don't have a legitimate claim to Jewish land from 1929 (the descendants of those landowners have strongly separated themselves from settlers who make those claims), Palestinians cannot hold out hope for reclaiming their homes if they hope for a better future. Without questioning the validity of those claims, the reason Sam's comment is frightening is that it deletes all possibility of improvement. Saying "No, never" will lead to the moral degradation of both societies.

Sam, Without resorting to what seems to be the accepted unreasonable hysterics, let me explain to you why your comment makes my heart sink. The cry of "No justice no peace" is the acceptance of a future worse than today. While I agree with you that no solution that doesn't address the injustices of 1948 can be viable in the long term, and though I don't know the exact form of that recognition (family reunification, symbolic apology, monetary compensation), I cringe at the thought of demanding justice. It seems to me inevitable that both sides will have to forgo justice if their children's lives are to be more peaceful than theirs. Israel will have to give up the idea that withdrawing from territories rewards terrorism and will have to deal with Palestinians that 'have blood on their hands.' Palestinians will have to, and I believe for the most part have, accept the existence of Israel and give up on the full right of return to their homes.

Thursday was the deadliest day in Iraq....And people say we are under occupation. Yes we are under occupation but not by the coalition forces, we are under Militia occupation. Do you hear me??? Wake up and smell the roses, oh sorry there are no roses in Iraq anymore, I should say Wake up and smell the dead carnage. Dont you dare say to me that we are occupied by these forces. State your facts clearly. WE ARE UNDER MILITIA/TERRORIST OCCUPATION...OK??? http://cyberray-rays.blogspot.com/2006/11/that-pitiful-purple-finger-people-say.html#links

to labor so mightily to try to separate Gaza and the West Bank in the minds of the rest of the world. Israel's propaganda flacks constantly bleat that we pulled out of Gaza and look what we got!" But the Palestinians aren't so dumb. The West Bank is still occupied, there is no way for Palestinians to travel between Gaza and the West Bank (or even to travel within the West Bank freely) and there can be no viable Palestinian state unless and until both Gaza and the West Bank are free from Zionist settlers and Israeli oppression. So don't blame Hamas or Fatah or anyone else but yourselves if the Pals aren't willing to be good little boys and settle for a Gaza surrounded by enemies while their brethren in the West Bank just keep on losing.

What, exactly, is your notion of "sovereignty"?Israeli forces come and go as they please, rampaging all the way. And tell me, what gets in or out of Gaza, without Israel's say-so, except by digging tunnels? What commerce with the outside world does Gaza have which is not carefully circumscribed by Israel? And bombing Gaza's main power station didn't do too much for energy self-sufficiency, now, did it? You no doubt have mighty fine reasons for all of this, but these methods are all means of control. I find the idea that Israel has relinquished control of (and thus responsibility for) Gaza to be just laughable.

Dear Cipora Sent you a esponse,but heaven knows on which forum.I'll bet they didn't put out. Very selective our Haaretz. In there i explained how i do not bother to be a bright and bushhy tail until well after late p.m,unlike you early birds. All the reading of articles are very time consuming and tiring.I can well imagine you feeling tired too. I still have to read my various mails I subscribe.The various American news papers etc,plus Arutz Sheva who send me regular posts. I really came to sort out my documents and delete some accordingly.That was at 1.30 p.m today.so,you can imagine.Once here I only managed Bradley's and one other.The rest can go hang for today.Time now where I am,is nearly 2.a.m imagine! Thake care and look after yourself. Layla Tov my dear... p/s A demain eh? ppl Haaretz this is for Cipora J.K # 341

We can never engage in ethnic cleansing because we experienced the "holocaust". We can never opress another people because of our 2,000 year history of opression. We can never steal,kill or occupy another people because we believe in the "ten commandments" and the "torah". We can never engage in war crimes, we are above that and besides, who are you going believe, your lying eyes or the "chosen" people? We don't discriminate on the basis of religion because for millenia we have been discrminated against because of our religion. We understand pain, torment, sufferring, opression because when you look up these words in the dictionary, it will be under "jews". Now back to reality, it's Jews who made an industry out of making $hit up, it's called hollywood and Israel.

I say to you the same as I said to Gabe, you can disagree all you want, but at the end of the day we all want the same thing, a future for artzenu. maureen wants nothing of the sort. I'll take ours with warts any day before the hollow bellowings by that one from down under. Remember Danite, you and I have our own warts as well, as we all do.

A cease fire has been announced. Time to play Let's Make a Deal. It appears Olmert and Abbas both know what a telephone is; they arranged a cease fire. Who wouda thunk it? Now it's time to make a deal on prisoners, including Shalit and proceed to making an arrangement on the West Bank for a similar cease fire. Then the hard part starts, but hey, maybe the negotiations don't need the full biblical 40 years.

I am pssed off with pssd off one eyed apologists for Arab violence. I am pssd off, up to my eye balls with your one eyed anti Israel bias. And if you think that your anti Israel tirades will dishearten those who support Israel, then you are sadly mistaken. In fact, it's counterproductive and strengthens our resolve!!!!

I am not sure why you are mixing the situation of a group who had a specific ideology against a new political order with that of people who left their homes on temporary basis to escape war. The majority of the Palestinian refugees did not participate in the war and their only ideology was to get back to their home after the war. Their only guilt was that they are from the wrong ethnic or religious group. While the Tories are not of a different ethnic mix but a political movement, which fought against the new founded government and when they lost the war they decided to escape to Canada.

Lots of room in Canada and we respect intelligent, hard-working people. As for the arab-muslim situation in Europe, it won't get to the point of population domination. Europe will not give up its heritage without bloodshed or exclusionary laws. Also, ask yourself who would run those economies, if they became muslim. Consider: 1 Nobel Prize winner out of 1.2 billion muslims!

You sound like a fake Danite. Your reference to Soviet Poland is a give away. This is not how Danite talks. The other clue I shall keep to myself.

Howdy Pissed-Off; You said, "Gaza has no sovereignty, no control of its borders, nor entry points, nor ports, nor airspace, nor electricity, nor security. The PA does not even get to say who is and is not a legal "citizen" or resident." Sovereignty: The PA has the sole resposibility for the administration and welfare of the people of the Gaza Strip. Borders: The PA controls its side of the border, but Israel and Egypt control their sides. Entry Points: The PA controls its side, but Israel and Egypt control their sides. Ports: There are no developed ports in the Gaza Strip. If the Gazans want one, then they will have to recognize Israel first and stop trying to attack her. Airspace: The runway of Gaza International Airport was torn up by the IDF due to arms smuggling. If the Gazans want it back in operation, then see the conditions under "Ports" above. Electricity: The Gaza Strip is not self-sufficient with electricity nor with gasoline and depends of Israel for it.

You are not as honest as the open haters.

You must understand about gabe1.His demented views and are the product of his upbringing in Soviet Poland.He is a prime example of the failure of the Soviet Union to create "The new Man" one must pity him.Regards

Howdy Altalena; Now, why I can't I be as succinct as you? I always get bogged down in the details and can hardly ever address all the points in a single post. In any case, thanks for your contribution to the ongoing discussion. Have you ever noticed how the earlier posts tend to remain on topic, but the latter ones tend drift off with a mind of their own?

"Tory" who left US (~1776) wasn't considered US citizen. And his great-grandchildren, all born in Canada, certainly not.

I actually do not care what will be the character of Israel in 50 or 100 years, and I do not care if the Chinese or French become a majority within Canada in the same period of time. There is no country in the world, which did never change its population composition throughout history. And I am not planning to stop evolution or stand against history. Actually anybody who will talk of a ?demographic bomb? because of the increase of Chinese population in Canada will be rightfully considered a racist. I believe that the same applies to any person who wants any ethnic or religious group to maintain control of a country just because he think that his group deserves what other groups do not deserve. If we accept your theory that Jews has more rights than Christians and Muslims to the land of Palestine, then the only way to maintain democracy in Israel will be through transferring the non-Jewish population out of the country, an anti-democratic approach at the first place.

The partition of Israel in 1947 gave both sides roughly equal land. Israel had already started her ethnic cleansing (see Ilan Pappe's book on the subject) in 1947 which brought in the (much weaker) Arab armies. Israel declared its independence in 1948, which provoked the war, with resultant border of the Green Line. So in fact that area aquired is also 'disputed'! Two can play the same game. If Israel does not withdraw completely to the 1967 borders, it is tantamount to agreeing to a one-state solution - no less. It will ultimately have to agree to a unitary democratic state for all its citizens, or else confirm itself as a true apartheid state.

Marilyn and Natalie are true stalwarts of justice. Keep up the good work! People forget that Hamas had stuck to a self imposed ceasefire for 18 months, while Israel continued its targeted assasinations, sonic booms and overflights, and tight siege on Gaza and the West Bank. There was no let up to the provocations and killings that ended with the Kassems.Instead of increasing the force and aggression, why does Israel not agree to a ceasefire and UN control of the OPTs? Because she wants to hold on forever to most of the West Bank and the Jordan Valley - so she will never live in peace.

All what you are saying is history in which you are not offering solutions. As I mentioned in many previous posts, Israel has to choose one of two choices: 1- Implement UN resolutions and return the territories, especially that the Arabs are accepting that as a solution (the Arab initiative in Beirut). 2- Give the Palestinians an Israeli citizenship and treat them as equal. Israel can always make a choice on the scenario it wishes to implement and declare that it will implement this choice once the Palestinian factions accept that. But to me it seems that Israel want the best of both options: Keep the land and get rid of the people, and that is and will not be accepted in the 21st century.

If they are not responsible how can they stop the Qassems? They just announced they would.

Cipora hello Just came to close shop after my dinner. I wish I hadn't though,especially after "mon repas".Gabe always writes passionately,and this time too.I am pleased you have approved of him this time. You see Cipora,he feels very deeply about Israel and angry that "lefties"the bane of our country.Glad that Danite discovered the two timing of Tosefta,and calling him by his previous name(B.G).I remember well when Gabe was warning me,about it,as though we were not aware from the start.But,I so no point to indulge into a banter,and left it at that. In any case my posts do not always appear,and it is frustrating.There is another thing with me you see...Unlike most of you who perhaps get up early,I do not.And by the time you have all begun I am still in my slumber.When up,cannot face the computer till middle p.m!Just as well though with all the silent cacophony that goes on here............................

Howdy Ben; The length of time that the partial economic blockade has lasted has no bearing on whether or not the Gaza Strip is currently "occupied" by Israel. It's not my fault that the Gazan militant/terrorists insist on trying to carry out their Jihad to destroy the State of Israel from a completely unoccupied Gaza Strip. That forces Israel to impose economic and travel restrictions on the Gaza Strip to prevent terrorists from infiltrating her sovereign territory and to prevent arms smuggling from going on. If that means that some Gazan civilians are inconvenienced, then that's what it means. The main impediment to Palestinian indepedence is a refusal to agree on where the border between Israel and the futuristic Islamic Republic of Palestine actually is and not on economic sanctions. How would you like it if Israel gave the PA a 30-day notice that all commerce and humanitarian aid must go through Egypt and not through Israel? Be very careful here, the Gazans are not in control

Canadian, You know its a rhetorical question, but I'll answer anyway. Because every time Israel evacuates territory, the Arabs respond by bringing in weapons and then attacking. Need examples? The Oslo accords from 1993-2000 when the Israelis were stupid enough to hand over arms to the PA leading directly to the second intifada; the abandonment of the Lebanese security zone in 2000 where the void was filled with 20,000 Hezbollah missiles. And now the folly of the Gaza 'disengagement' with tons of rifles, exposives and missiles smuggled in after the IDF left. Nevertheless, its telling that you propose that Israel leave without first advocating that the Palestinians lay down their weapons.

is good or suffocating the Gaza totally inhibiting any movement of people or trade unless life-saving so pals will not die in mass hunger, and u believe the world can believe u. I simply advise u to open yr eyes and care for the suffering of yr niebouhrs imposed by yr govermernt, otherwise the world will find it difficult to support u anymore, otherwise u will lose yr humanity

I am a grandmother, and from what you have written you are not a youngster either. I resent your posts because they are black and white. I see shades of grey, and yes since coming here I have become much more supportive of Israel. I do see injustice on both sides. Do Israeli's respect Palestinians? Absolutely not! Do Palestinians want Jews dead? Absolutely. So what came first the chicken or the egg? I see no compromise on the Palestinian side. I see lousy leadership in Israel, which is too bad, but.. I see so many Jews reaching out, and so few Palestinians. Do you really want to be alligned with Maureen, Dutch, Steven Murray, Swiss, etc. who want only bloodshed? Please see that each must give a little, but mainly as a woman, I become so frustrated that children are taught that death is preferable to life. You and I know better. I don't expect you to become pro-Israeli, just to see that there is some grey.

Its so simple you are never wrong. Time for the Pollytheist Crusaders to learn this lesson once and for all.For those slow on the uptake there are Jihadists everywhere waiting to reinforce this lesson.

No Israel doesn't. She is ready and eager of giving control to the responsible people of Gaza. But who are those people? Is it Hamas with its passion to wipe out Israel from the map?

I' m glad you're feeling better today, I was already worried about your health yesterday, when you forgot to give me the obligatory "stamp".... ...but actually I already thought you must feel better today, when I saw what kind of language you used for the Palestinians, not really nice, Gabe....

The Apartheid smear is almost funny. No Jews in Gaza. No Jews in Hebron. No Jews anywhere on the West Bank. It is the Arabs who demand that their would-be country be Judenrein. And they accuse Israel of Apartheid.

you are one of the codardi was masquerading behind hamas-hizbolla camuflage mask has burned soldiers effigy,italian/israeli/american burn flags, carry hate slogans against israel. take your ignoramus post somewhere else Sderot is in the state of israel where ever the citizens of this town come from AND who needs you to defend us

I have not looked at Bradly's article yet, or even to most of the responses, but like you, for lack of time, I do read some. It seems to me, and I base this on Avraham Tal's article, and the responses, as well as the responses in the last few weeks, that there is a concerted effort by Europeans, in particular, to discredit Israel and to try to drive a wedge between her and the United States. These people, if they are really Europeans, seem to have very limited understanding of their own geopolitical interests. They ignore the threat pose by countries to the east, and in their hatred of the U.S., think that they can go it alone. The utmost significance of the poisoning in london does not seem to touch them. I hope that you are well, dear nanna. I am quite tired. Regards, Cipora

As for as I know Arabs have never been stripped of Israely citizenship. They simply left the country some in fear of war and some just to loot Jewish belongings. It happened before citizenship was even established. It is sad but it happened to Germans, Indians, Packistanies, Greeks, Turks, Jews from Arab countries etc. Do you think all of them are subject to apartheid? I am a Jew living outside Israel and I am living in unique country USA. It is a country of immigrants with no racial majorities and minorities. Not all of the world Jews are living in USA and those living in other countries are routingly told that they do not belong with this place. So "Most if not all jews living outside Israel" will agree with me.

The US wants to deal with the North Korean nuclear problem by a total economic blockade to force a change in policy. Since such a blockade would not constitute US occupation of North Korea, the Israeli ecoonmic blockade of Gaza does not constitute occupation. An economic blockade is considered by international law a "non violent means" of putting pressure on one enemies. Debates on the internet are an inaccurate source of information. You need to read books on international law.

Gabe, I am very pleased that finally you are writing posts that are real contributions. Just stick to the facts and the arguments, and you will be a valuable contributor. Danite, I agree with you on many issues, especially the one you are addressing in this thread. I am afraid that there is no way to get him to overcome what seem to be fears. His delusions of grandeur are incurable. I love your posts because they are so passionate.

CHIDDING OF GABE WHO CARES DEEPLY FOR HIS COUNTRY AND HIS PEOPLE. AND STOP MEDDLING WITH AFFAIRS THAT ARE NOT YOUR CONCERN! Gabe is correct,and he says it like it is.You may wish it otherwise,but things are not as you want them to be. So,come down from your high horse,and put yourself in the position of the Jewish/Israeli citizens who have been suffering from the terror attacks since the Rebirth of Israel.Then we'll see if you can still feel the same way, as you constantly come here in to a Jewish Zionist newspaper that gives you the opportunity to say things that others would abhore toward you instead of Gabe! Just give it a rest.You are you,and Gabe belongs to us,and unlike you he cares...

Bradley Burston writes: "Just as it is up to Palestinians of moral conscience to rise up and speak out against their side's violations of international law in the firing of Qassams." Sure Bradley.... as if that will ever happen.

I do not ascribe to that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. He is jewish and will eventually see the right way so if you think that you can attack him don't ven think it. You however will always be my enemy and as far as I can deduct you are beyond redemption. Just a typical rin of the mill Anti semite.

Even if you take the most liberal interpretation Of "occupation" Gaza would not fall into that categoty . Tosefta is just having fun by blowing smoke.

I completely agree with the position of mainstream human rights organizations, that the firing of Qassams is intended (however unlikely) to injure and kill civilians, and is thus a violation of international law, not to mention counterproductive. Still, Burston can't bring himself to admit that IDF operations also intend to injure and kill civilians. No one buys the "tragic error" line anymore. And to call the launching of Qassams "state terrorism" is ridiculous. Gaza has no sovereignty, no control of its borders, nor entry points, nor ports, nor airspace, nor electricity, nor security. The PA does not even get to say who is and is not a legal "citizen" or resident. Just because it has ceded a few small fragments of control to the PA doesn't absolve Israel of ultimate responsibility for both the welfare and policing of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. If Israel doesn't want this responsibility, it must give up control.

The legal status of Gaza may be interesting for lawyers but we should not forget that there are some political & moral issues. Legal issues should be discussed in a court of law with a judge & are not as clear as you claim. Certainly, Israel has left Gaza but if hamas continues lauching rockets, Israel has a right to self-defense. It defies reason to argue that Israel occupies Gaza when it does not. Controling borders is a necessity for Israel at this time and cannot be confused with occupation whatever interpretation of the law you have. According to Oslo, PA is governing not Israel. hamas can develop the lives of Pal's if it it wants but does not do it. This article precisely tells us that hamas does not follow int. law.

THE JUDGEMENT WAS BASED ON IGNORING THE ILLEGAL OCCUPATION OF TERRITORY OF THE PALESTINE MANDATE BY EGYPT AND JORDAN FOR 19 YEARS THEN GOING ONN TO SAY THAT THE RECAPTURE OF THEIR OWN LAND WAS A WAR BETWEEN STATES AND AT THE SAME TIME THAT JORDAN HAD THE TEMERITY TO ANNEXE THE WEST BANK AND JERUSALEM. THE ADVICE JUDGEMENT WAS SO FLAWED AS TO BE ALICE IN WONDERLAND WITH INDIVIDUAL JUDGES MAKING SERIOUS COMMENTS ABOUT IT EVEN THOUGH THEY HAD VOTED WITH IT !! THEY ALSO MANAGED TO CREATE A STATE THAT DIDNT EXIST IN THE JUDGEMENT THE COURT FURTHER CLAIMED JURISDICTION OVER THE MATTER DESPITE THE FACT THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO HEAR ANY COMPLAINT FROM A NON MEMBER OF THE UN , NOR CAN IT BE HEARD IF ONE PARTY OBJECTS AS ISRAEL DID .

Howdy Tosefta; I don't understand your logic and I'm pretty good at the subject since I happen to be a mathematician. I'll let the other readers of this forum decide for themselves whether or not the Gaza Strip is still occupied by Israel or whether it is under a partial economic blockade due to military necessity.

Now to Geneva. do you agree that most Pals in Judea and Samaria have Jordanian Citizenship. And although Jordan abrogated that I am not sure that it would stand a court challenge.If the borders have been agreed between Israel, Jordan and Egypt and the Pals are Jordanian citizens what are they doing in Israel. I believe that Israel would have the right to determine that if they are not Israeli Citizens they can be deported to a country where they do hold citizenship. Was not Britain, France, Holland obliged to take in people from their colonies who had their citizenship when the colonies wanted them out. You may be irritated but you have no Legal background and are just blowing whiffs of smoke our way. Please and thank you.

Nietzsche said whatever does not destroy you will make you stronger. Let these ant-semetic hateful people talk their talk, but remember that is why the Jewish people have always outlasted any other culture. If we had no enemies and others jealous of success, then we would become mediocre. Look at the over 1 billion Muslims who care not for the Palestinians: otherwise they would demand an education for their youth. I do appreciate the few of you that fight in words with these armchair bigots.

Tststtst, waw is it a kind of threat?? Anyways why are you trying to twist, modify, use it when it suits you truths. You have international law. Recognizing its authority is beside the point here, as is trying to find the "Just" or the most ethical side. Saying that purposefully sending missiles on civilian population is war crime, is a fact. Whether the other side makes also war crimes, they have no other means to defend themself, ..... You can try to twist the things around, saying the palestinian are morally superior, occupation is an act of rape, Israels commits also war crimes. Denying the holocaust, the right to existence of Israel. Whatever you want, but the fact remains that those are crimes against humanity.

When is the last time you preached to Palestinians, in your sermon, against violence? Why do I get the feeling that you and your other regular Israel critics only worry about Israel's response to violence but ya' all perfectly happy about the violence committed by Palestinians against Israelis?

Is not the International Court of Justice an advisory body and can only deliberate when two parties to the conflict agree. Correct me if I am wrong but did Israel agree and sent lawyers to argue.Again let me not burst your bubble but whatever decison UNGA takes is that decision binding? Correct me if I am wrong but were not the belligerents Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Israel. Israel has a peace treaty with Israel and no Land claims on Isreal. Correct so far? Israel has a peace treaty with Jordan and all land claims were resolved. Is that correct? The Palestinians never had a country and until 1967 never had any claims against either Jordan or Egypt being quite happy to be part of them. Under these conditions how can Pals have a claim against Israel? Is it not a kicker that the Pals are not even mentioned in 242.

Still tilting at windmills DonT. The ICJ had no jurisdiction on any discussion over the fence so yadi yada about their interpretation means.....oh yeah, nothing. The ISC did not discuss the land because....oh yeah, Israel says it's disputed. At least you dropped your trusty companion for now, oh so clever and crafty you are lol. The territories are disputed precisely because you are.....what's that word again...incorrect. Continuing to pre-judge the outcome of negotiations and jump up and down with a cheering section doesn't alter the fact it remains to be seen who gets what piece of land in a future settlement. This from the same arabist apologist who wants to experiment on gaza on the basis that as an independent country Israel can do whatever it wants to it since it won't be "occupied". You changed your name, but you're the same old hack spouting nonsense. Do yourself a favour and get another job.

**Both blacks and whites in south Africa are citizens of South African Republic. There was no UN resolution to divide South Africa. As for the whites of South Africa they all have ancestrial lands in Holand and GB and even some of them in Israel while Jews of Israel do not have other land.** by *Racially segregated*, I meant Palestinian Arabs. Yes, sure , blacks were indeed citizens of South Africa: does this mean that had they been stripped of their citizenship, apartheid would no longer have beem immoral? Jews do not have other land? Most if not all jews living outside Israel would disagree, and many do not feel any emotional tie with Israel. 19th century Romantic nationalism (which was antisemitic)had it that states should be shaped along the spirit of the majority, with no place for minorities. Israel seems to espouse the same ideology.

Hollingsworth said: "Yes, and Israel has been exercising that option to a greater or lesser degree since before 1948" Yes, in response to Arab violence since the 1920s. What's your point mate?????? Is your point that Israel has no right to react with violence to violence that's directed against it?

" And just because you accept them as human I don't." " They are rats and vermin that want to infect me with the diseases they are carrying and r sawing death and destruction." I feel very sorry for you Gabe! I know of Jewish people who have love in their heart for ALL members of humanity. I hope you have the opportunity to learn from them at some stage of your existence.

Your complaints about the ignorance of others coming from someone who compared Area A and the PA govt as the Warsaw Ghetto and the JudenRat are laughbale to say the least.Unlike Area A the ghetto was established as a temporary measure in order to exterminate the jews more effectivly.Where are the death camps waiting for the residents of area A? Your application of "logic and accuracy" are highly self serving to say the least dont you think? or then again do you think?The absurdities you spout are truly a thing of wonder to behold.

I am very glad to hear that you are supervising now your own "side", so we will get away easier with our stuff.... Thanks for doing a great job... By the way, sorry that I always thought you were a "she", Gabe is a female name in Switzer- land... Keep on watching our "enemies", Big Brother...

San Remo conference and League of Nations did not authorize Jews to dispocess people living there. 1948 transfer of Jewish and Arab populations was a result of war waged by 5 Arab countries but how will you justify this kind of things now? Quassam attacks is not enough for it but if Gaza goverment will do nothing about it transfer may be justified.

You see, I thought you really didn't comprehend the reality. I assumed you wanted to be informed. You ignored the part of my post that said that Israel would become a muslim country, so I see now where you are coming from. Don't you think that 22 muslim countries in the region are enough? I guess not, so I'll just put you with the other haters who want to destroy this brilliant little democract, that allows you to come to a Jewish site to tell Israel to disappear.

The legal question came up in the case of the "fence" before the International Court of Justice, as it was trying to advise the UNGA on the matter. The ICJ reasoned that since the war which brought the Occupied Territories under Israeli control were wars between states which have adopted Geneva Israel, Jordan, Egypt), and regardless of which soil the war was taking place, the Geneva Convention applies. The ISRAELI SUPREME COURT also discussed the matter, and AGREED with the reasoning as far as the people were concerned. (The Court couldn't discuss the land itself since Israel says it is disputed. Prior to the recent case, Israel's government used to say that it voluntarily applies Geneva to the Pals. But due to the Supreme Court?s decision, it now HAS to apply it (to the people in WB). It is irritating to read ?legal opinions? by ignorants who would not make the minimal effort to check their views. One of these ignoramuses once claimed that the Geneva Convention allows population ?transfer?. Never read the document, apparently.

all produce from israel WAS EXPORTED UNDER THE AGREXCO LABEL no matter what its origin . some even came from jordan. MOST OF THE FRUIT PICKING WAS DONE BY ARAB CONTRACTORS WHOSe LABOUR CAME FROM GAZA!! the arabs ruined their own economy by stupid intifadas and the eventual anning of arab labour from jewish areas !!

Where do you come up with these lies at Hezbollah only started to attack Israel after hundreds of lebanese were killed in Israeli bombings? Up until July 06 there were no Israeli bombings of Lebanese civilians. Infact the only people prior to July were 3 IDF soldiers kidnapped in Oct 2000. Hezbolla repeatedly over the course of six years instigated cross border attacks culminating in the murder and abduction of Israeli soldiers. Your lies and propaganda have no bearing on the current reality or better yet provide us with this alleged bombing of Lebanese civilians prior to July 2006.

Howdy Nick; Actually, prior to the recent war, the Israeli-Lebanese border was relatively quiet. Hezbollah would fire rockets at Israel and the IAF would respond with an air strike on occasion, but it never amounted to much. Hezbollah also tried several cross-border raids which for the most part were foiled. Things changed this summer when a Hezbollah commando squad infiltrated onto Israeli sovereign territory and ambushed an IDF patrol killing three and capturing two Israeli soldiers. At the same time and before any Israeli response, Hezbollah fired 40 Katyusha rockets at Israeli civilian population centers as a diversion and cover for their commando raid. Your claim that Hezbollah didn't start firing rockets until after Israel started to retaliate is false. Disproportionate response is the whole idea of warfare. What's so strange about that? The object is to brutally crush one's enemies quickly before they can drag the conflict out indefinitely with even more casualties on both

I did not say that . Regarding the UN resolutions , i repeat : the nov 1947 resolution regarding the partition of the then Palestine was ACCEPTED by the Jewish population , responded by attacks on the Jewish places by arab irregulars . Then after the independance in may 48 , was attacked by all the Arab countries . In 67 Israel BEGGED the late King Hussein of Jordan to not attack us . He did not listen to our demands . Israel has won all those wars . The UN resolutions are also "interpretable" as you know . We will certainly accept to give territory to the Palestinians , but we want other thimgs than promesses .

I have noticed that you are becoming more beligerant on that other site and that is a good sign. I guess you can maybe now understand the frustration of dealing with Anti Semites and Arab Homicical apologists as well as Hizbulla ns hamas sympathizers and God knows you have a numer on that other site. I would like to point that that i do not trust you as far as I could throw you as a result of your shifting alliances and agendas and viewpoints. I will continue to watch your posts and critique as need be. You are a one trick pony and I don't think can learn or teach. I am glad that Salaam has taken off at least one offending Topic but there are a few still to go.

TO HELP YOU WITH LEGALITIES . 1920 SAN REMO CONFERENCE SET OUT EXTENT OF JEWISH HOMELAND 1922 LEAGUE OF NATIONS ESTABLISHE MANDATE FOR JEWISH HOMELAND THIS INCLUDED WHAT IS NOW JORDAN AND THE AREA KNOWN TODAY AS THE WEST BANK . 1948 EGYPT JORDAN AND OTHER ARAB ARMIES INVAED ABD CAPTURED TERRITORY ILLEGALLY 1967 ISRAEL RECAPTURED THE TERRITORY OF THE JEWISH HOMELAND WITHOUT JORDAN. THE LEGAL POSITION REMAINS THAT IT IS ONE TERRITORY DESPITE UPSIDE DOWN GENERAL VIEWS THAT THE ARAB INVASION WAS ILLEGAL AND THE RECAPTURE ILLEGAL. ARABS NOW OCCUPY 92% OF THE 1920 JEWISH HOMELAND

Your suggestion that Israel is merely maintaining an 'economic blockade in times of armed conflict' around Gaza is not correct. The economic blockade has been in place for many years and extends to long before even the first Intifada in 1987 started. One of the prominent features of the Israeli occupation always has been the frustration of any effort on the part of the Palestinians to build a prosperous economy. We remember how in the 1980s when the Palestinians tried to export their agricultural produce from Gaza to the EU countries Israeli bureaucracy put obstacle after obstacle in the way. Citrus fruit from Gaza was left to rot in the port of Ashdod, whilst ambulances for the health service in Gaza was likewise rusting away. This economic sabotage as an instrument to frustrate any movement towards Palestinian independance remains a feature of the occupation to this day.

Chrles said: "WHO IS GUILTY OF THIS SITUATION ? Doe`s Israel have to let your suicide bombers come freely into Israel ? Doe`s Israel have to let you import vast quantities of weapons to attack us ? So it`s all upon you . If you want a bad life go ahead as you are doing . I would prefer to give a good life to my children , not misery . " I replied: So you are saying that Israel is willing to implement all UN resolutions regarding the conflict just if the Palestinians stop their military resistance. That is a very interesting statement because I never heard this from any Israeli politician, and because Israel rejected the Arab League proposal of 2004 for full peace with all Arab countries in exchange of implementing those UN resolutions. Convince your politicians to say what you just stated in your post and all the region will live in peace for ever. Cheers

This is true but the fact of the matter that we don't want any more disposessions and we don't want to govern other people. We want those people to govern themselfs and don't pose a threat to Israel. They have a chance now to show that they peacefull intentions. And... as usual it looks like they are "missing the opportunity" again.

Then just counter the Saudi plan by asking that not only the Palestinians but Jews as well are to be allowed to go back to their countries of origin if they choose so. I do not see why we should be holding ordinary people (Jews and Palestinians alike) as hostages to our ideologies. Any Palestinian should be allowed to live in his place of origin and the same should be applied to an Arab Jew who would like to live in his ancestral land of Iraq, Yemen, or Morocco.

So the firing of qassams constitutes a war crime, and Hamas claims credit. So when is the UN going to cite the government of Palestine as a criminal organization, Khalid Meshal as a war criminal, and Syria for complicity? It is time for the UN to at least put an end to the tired argument that "we can't be war criminals; we're Palestinians".

Who emigrated from Gaza? Palestinians or Israelis? Who will leave the West Bank soon eh:) Keep wishing dear. By the way Cipora miss you. Kath, Cipora prefer to post women only.

A problem dear Gabe Don't give up hope.I just sent you one,but hope remains eternal.I pressed the wrong butten accidently,so I cannot tell if they will see fit to put it out. One important one I sent,was to Klaudia,and I hope they put it out! It vindicates the argument she was having with Bousameer,and I helped a bit.You are quite right in saying(at least I am saying)we are dealing with some monsters here,and our numbers are too small in comparison,sorry to say. I blame our lefty Haaretz for it for sure! They do give free rein to them rather than our lot!Shame on them.But,I am gratified to have the likes of Kim,Klaudia,Maria,and a few others we can depend on. You know what I did? I made a long list of our detractors,and it nearly took a whole page! I saved it for future reference... Meantime,we have to eat,sleep,and the rest.I cannot devote my entire life fighting these scumbags all the time. God bless you dear Gabe,for I am always with you all the way,do not give up.

"There is no way in hell that you can convince me that the Gaza Strip is currently being occupied by Israel." - Jeff N I actually don't expect to convince you. My experience shows mere words wouldn't help, you need to see it in black and white. (Remember the Canaanites and Phoenicians, dear Pharaoh of Egypt?) I was happy to rely on simple logic to DISPROVE YOUR OWN definition of "occupation". You were using a false definition, based on option (b) on my list. Option (a) is what one would conclude from the language. Are you dropping (b) in favor of (e)? Just read the language and use LOGIC, not what you want it to say but what it actually says. Again, in the rest of my post 264, I also do not explain why Gaza is "legally occupied", just give you indications to consider it, as well as a blockade/occupation situation which would open your mind a little more. In all this I did not explain why Gaza IS occupied. I will explain it to somebody else, if they ask me, but not to you. (I hate to work in vain.) P.S. A technical legal term may use ordinary (regular dictionary) term, but with a different/ more precise meaning. Also true in math. You can say some object is "invertible" without meaning that you can just write it upside down.

This is a kind of question "do we want to change history"? May be we want but we can't.

Gabe dear I have been busy trying and have to wait our haaretz to put my responses out. I hate it when it doesn't,and so frustrating. I just sent one to Klaudia,will it come out? heaven knows IF OR WHEN OIF AT ALL.

Klaudia dear It is absolutely true,BUT!Bousameer has got it the wrong way around the silly man. Yes,they are emigrating in their hundreds from Ramallah and fleeing from the constant troubles they are fed-up with,Terrible daily life,the different factions the constant killings of one another,and I can go ad-infinitum! Therein lies the TRUTH,AND NOT THE WAY BOUSAMEER HAS HEARD OR READ IT,heaven knows where...

Altalena, I was dealing with the legal status of Gaza. It has some implications on how Israel can react and what it cannot do because of the Geneva Convention. This does not mean that the Palestinians are acting properly. In #122 I consider them to be committing crimes against humanity. Of course, Israel has the right of self defense within the confines of the Geneva Convention. As far as not building their country, they have been acting as fools. In any case, one issue at a time. Can't cover everything in one forum and in one post.

# 235 is not Charles . Regarding implementation of UN resolution ???

Who had sovreignty over Gaza and the West Bank prior to the '67 war? There is no applicability of the 4th Geneva Convention because it is base on the assumption that there had been a sovereign who was ousted...and that he had been a legitimate sovereign. The language of the 1949 armistice lines was clear that they were no final status borders and will not prejudice rights,claims and positions of either Party. res 242 doesn't state any final borders either and certainly doesn't refer to "palestinian" land in any way shape or form. Disputed land is called occupied land only by those who want to pre-judge the outcome of negotiations.

the original Saudi plan might have worked...but... The Lebanese insisted on including the "right of return" for all. This would effectively mean the end of Israel, and Jews being guests in an Islamic state. If you really want to know who creates the obstacles, ask the "advocates" for the palestinians here if they would accept a prosperous Palestinian State along side a Jewish state, and the answer is always "no". I am also not certain if you are aware that about an equal number of Jews were evicted from Muslim countries. Israel absorbed them, but the Palestinians were left to rot by their Muslim brothers, who refused to give them citizenship.

Howdy Tosefta; There is no way in hell that you can convince me that the Gaza Strip is currently being occupied by Israel. Such a claim defies international law as well as common sense. Israel completely withdrew from the Gaza Strip over a year ago, there are no Israelis there (except for some recent, temporary military incursions), and Israel does not "exercise the functions of government" there. I don't like any of your stinking options except for "(e) None of the above." If you try to insist that a partial economic blockade during a period of armed conflict constitutes an "occupation", then you are going to loose the argument. They are two separate things under international law and most people can figure that out just by using their common sense.

The PA gets money directly from Europe, the UN, the US, & some Arab countries. The PA manages hospitals, schools, police,TV/radio etc. I agree that it does not do a good job but Israel has nothing to do with that. In Gaza, Israel even gave Jewish properties, farms, etc but hamas does not appreciate and cannot do anything with that. It only complains about other constraints imposed because the present leaders do not understand that agression will only bring casualties. As the IDF has more firepower, the results are predictable but hamas does not care; it is irresponsible. Israel does not occupy Gaza anymore, hamas could develop farming & industry, it has the ressources or can get them, same in the WB . Do not confuse the government with agression which calls for self-defense. The arguments "we are occupied then we have all rights" is not a good one as Pal's are paying too high a price for misjudgment of hamas.

Mistakes happen. Actually more often than correct transactions. Vietnam was a mistake. Iraq is a mistake. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called the creation of Israel a mistake. Is it ? May not look a blunder today, but what would it be like fifty years from now ? The U.S., its main protector and provider, is commencing today an orderly withdrawal from Iraq and its easy to expect from the whole region. Two Questions. If this becomes a reality, what outside support can Israel get ? But the more important issue is does Israel want to stay in its current neighborhood ? Amongst a people that at least for a hundred years have been detested and beaten down to a state of none-entity by the West and their surrogate, Israel. A people, Arabs, that is, that fifty years from now may outnumber Europe and North America's combined population. A people that never forget and are vengeful. A people that are accountable to their own individual God, and therefore no rules of "civil society" prevail. Nothing is forbidden: beheadings, suicide bombings, burning by gasoline while in prayer and the list goes on. Again, the question for those that love Israel is,does Israel want to stay in its neighborhood ?

Using the ratio of Israeli and Palestinian civilian deaths to justify an anti-Israel position is pure sophism. During the most recent war in Lebanon, Hezbollah boasted that it had forced one million Israeli civilians to live in bomb shelters. It would have killed those Israelis if it had the means. The true shame of Hezbollah is that it never took the responsibility to provide similar shelter for Lebanese non-combatants in a war which it instigated. Hezbollah and Hamas adhere to the time-worn tactic of instigating violence, suffering the consequences, then crying to world about the inhumanity of it all. There are many things for which to criticize Israel. But no one can condemn it for using force to defend itself from attacks that are "provoked" only by the fact that Israel dares to continue to exist.

The story line runs like this.We the Arab Muslim Males have been chosen by G-d to be the dominant element over evrybody and everything that crosses our path.That others do not submit to us is an affront to our human right to deprive others of their human rights.Since we are always being contested we are always being victimised by oppressive demands for equality.We are never wrong but always right,everything can be explained away by "its the occupation" or "hatred of islam" of some vast jewish plot againt the Arabs.We hate modernity and democracy because it will lessen the power of the Muslim Arab male,human rights is simply something we demand of others to protect the power structure we want internaly.Thats the sum total of the whole thing.

Dear Bruriah Sarah, Your comments in posting # 89 seem to suggest that the women and children killed at Qana were the victims of their own ignorance, in that they failed ?to understand the tempo of war?. I?m sure that is not what you meant, for that would imply that all civilian deaths in war, past and present, are victims of their own ignorance, not of war crimes. Have I understood you correctly?

Dear Bruriah Sarah, Of course a people have the right to defend themselves. But when they respond for every soldier killed with the deaths of hundreds of innocents, deliberately, and repeatedly, then we are witnessing a people moving inexorably down the slippery slope towards commiting genocide. I for one am no longer prepared to remain a silent witness to these atrocities.

So you are saying that Israel is willing to implement all UN resolutions regarding the conflict just if the Palestinians stop their military resistance. That is a very interesting statement because I never heard this from any Israeli politician, and because Israel rejected the Arab League proposal of 2004 for full peace with all Arab countries in exchange of implementing those UN resolutions. Convince your politicians to say what you just stated in your post and all the region will live in peace for ever. Cheers

Dear Bruriah Sarah, Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn?t the Israelis Air Force infringed Lebanese airspace daily since its withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000? I?m sure that there were also a number of raids into Lebanon by the IDF to assassinate Hezbollah leaders before their July incursion. I also recollect that Hezbollah started firing rockets into Israel after only the repeated bombings of Beirut which killed hundreds of innocent civilians. In my view, they have a right to respond. Disproportionate response seems to be a key Israeli strategy, which is why it is a military state and not a modern secular democracy.

How do you get away with writing about war crimes when it's obvious you don't even know what one is. And appear to take just anyone's word on the definition. Lets just clear one thing up, If you make a mistake it's not a war crime, It takes an intentional act, mistakes do not count. The crime is the intention not the act. Even if you claim that Israel commits few war crimes, they can't match Hamas who commits them everyday by the hand fulls. Think about this news for the Palestinians, if they do get there own State and Hamas fires Qassam rockets at Israel, It will be an international act of war and Israel would be well within their right to level the whole place. Hamas feels everyone should play by the rules, except them, I think the joke will be on them.

indrajaya, Don't worry the 14 justices at the ICJ are not buying their story either. Israel is the illegal occupier and aggressor in the Palestinian territores. Israeli officials are only fooling themselves today if they think the world is buying their BS anymore. Dutch

The Israeli Arab situation did improve over the years from its original situation during the 50s and the 60s. Discrimination is still spread especially in the case of unrecognized villages, education, and marriage rights to Arabs from the occupied territories. An interesting link will be: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Arab "the Israeli government spends an average of $192 per year on each Arab student compared to $1,100 per Jewish student"

Jeff, despite my past efforts, you still seem unable to grasp the logic behind the legal state of "occupation". I explained it before, but there seems to be a new crop of people who might benefit from clarification. Let me first deal with your definition. You think Israel does not occupy Gaza because it "no longer exercises the functions of government there." Your support for the definition: Article 6 of the 4th Geneva Convention, which says: "the Occupying Power shall be bound, for the duration of the occupation, to the extent that such Power exercises the functions of government in such territory, by the provisions of the following Articles" Reading this, what does it imply? (a) There can be Occupation WITHOUT exercising the functions of government. (b) Every Occupier ALSO exercises the functions of government. (c) Whoever exercises the functions of government is an occupier. (d) Nobody needs to Occupy or exercise the functions of government. (e) None of the above. You picked (b). Better try again, and again, until you get it right. With respect to the status of Gaza, it may help you consider 2 opinions: 1. Israel considers Gaza under legal occupation (according to GA opinion). 2. The Swiss government considers Gaza occupied. All this is no proof. But these countries have armies of sharp lawyers to advise them on legal matters, and you only have your poor logic to help. Finally, according to your definition, areas B of the West Bank, where Israeli military forces are ON THE GROUND, while the Pals take care of their civil affairs (functions of gov.), you consider Unoccupied. How about the Warsaw Ghetto. (Never heard of?) The Nazis don?t like to get in, being afraid of typhoid and deceases; the Judenrat (Jewish Council) runs the day-to-day, so it is unoccupied! P.S. Blockaded vs. Occupied. Try the following thought experiment: Scenario 1: You occupy an area, add also air and sea blockade. You remove ground troops (while reserving the right to come in as you wish). At no point was the occupation lifted so the area is still occupied. Scenario 2: You go to an independent country and put it under air-sea-land blockade, never sending troops in. At no point was the country occupied, so it is blockaded. How is it possible to have 2 identical situations with 2 different legal statuses? In physics they call it hysteresis. In math you can call it bifurcation.

Here is some logic for you! "Thus the killing of almost 400 Palestinians since June by Iasraeli forces compared to 4-5 Israelis deaths makes Israel`s war crimes against humanity another evil in the world." ...Dutch Dutch has an unhealthy obsession, that is not to say that she frets without cause, just that she is so crazed that she has become unintelligible. The above paragraph (from Dutch's post)is nonsensical.(as is her 2nd Paragraph from the same post). Even if I allow for what I believe to be her implication, that the greater the number killed the greater the evil of the killers, this still is not demontsrated by anything that she says in her post. Yet if she were able to justify her position this would merely relegate Israel's said evils to minor consequence, well behind those of other nations in the region. Ergo Israel should be congratulated rather than castigated for her indisputable restraint;)

Howdy Boycott; "You cannot treat one part of this entity as unoccupied while the rest remains occupied." Sure, you can. The Fourth Geneva Convention does not define an occupation in that way at all. A partial Israeli occupation of Areas C in the West Bank does not imply an Israeli occupation of the Gaza Strip. Historical example: the German occupation of the Sudatenland in 1938 did not imply that all of Czechoslovakia was occupied. "...all international organisations and all states regard Gaza as occupied." No, they don't. In fact, most countries lauded Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip last year and recognize it as a termination of Israel's occupation of the area. "That is a fact whether you like it or not." I don't like it and it's not a fact except in your head. By the way, my last name is "Northridge" not "Northcott". I usually ignore it if someone misspells my name as "Northbridge", but that was too much.

So the solution is easy: just take away their only currency and get out of the occupied territories. You can always play smarter, can't you?

If you want to call this "occupation" fine , what's in a name . I'll ask you only : WHO IS GUILTY OF THIS SITUATION ? Doe's Israel have to let your suicide bombers come freely into Israel ? Doe's Israel have to let you import vast quantities of weapons to attack us ? So it's all upon you . If you want a bad life go ahead as you are doing . I would prefer to give a good life to my children , not misery .

"Now, under such circumstances, Israel too has no other option but to use violence." Yes, and Israel has been exercising that option to a greater or lesser degree since before 1948.

Howdy kk and tech; So, exactly where is this "Palestinian land" of yours? You wouldn't be including the sovereign State of Israel in that half-assed description would you?

Gaza and the West Bank are two areas but one entity, eventually to become the State of Palestine, even the Israelis have agreed to this. You cannot treat one part of this entity as unoccupied while the rest remains occupied. This is logical and legal nonsense, and you know it. Whatever your casuistry, all international organisations and all states regard Gaza as occupied. That is a fact whether you like it or not. See also Johnboy, #210.

The critics of Israel scream: "Israel is criminal because there are many more dead Palestinians than Israelis...." I say: Even one dead Jew or Palestinian are too many. Then I ask: Who is instigating this situation? And the obvious answer is the Palestinians!!! Why? Because they don't want to negotiate in good faith for a peace settlement. All they want to do is to "kicky Israel's butt" and force it through extortion and violence to commit national suicide. Now, under such circumstances, Israel too has no other option but to use violence. But it then gets criticised by "one eyed" biased Idiots for killing too many Palestinians. I ask them: What number wouldn't be too many? One? Two? The same numbers as dead Israeli civilians? What an idiotic numbers game....There shouldn't be any deaths on either side....But that's not what the Palestinians and their friends want, they just want dead Israelis!!!!!!

Howdy Johnboy; Thank you for your twisted interpretation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Unfortunately, Article 6 of the FGC disagrees with you. An occupation terminates when the occupying power no longer "exercises the functions of government" in the territory in question. An economic blockade does not constitute an occupation (see my response to "al", # 223). Are you trying to say that the U.S. "occupied" Cuba during the Cuban Missle Crisis because of our naval blockade? How about Great Britain imposing a naval blockade on Germany during WW I? Or, how about the U.S. (and others) imposing an economic blockade on Japan prior to 9/2/45 during WW II? In none of those cases did an economic blockade imply an occupation.

OK, let's forget about Palestine/Israel problems and dedicate the Haaretz website to discussing Darfur. Oh, will it be all right to mention Tibet here or should that be kept to the Jerusalem Post website?

Mr. Michigan, While intuitively correct, your premise covers up a drastic oversimplification. Remember Chicago in the 30's? Who were the criminals there. What of the police in Iraq that stand idly while Sunni worshipers are set afire by Shiite militia. Even in WWII the history was written by the victors. That does not in any way mean that the victors were not guilty of criminal acts. YOu are guilty of defining the criminal acts in your premise as the acts of your opponents. That is a false argument. It renders the conclusion that the "terrorists" as the war criminals, utterly meaningless. Open your mind to the concept of justice for all. The oppressed have by necessity to employ means not accepted by the oppressor.

go to the holy bible and learn from it...... God of Israel can take away your country from you and your people if He wants to.He can scattered you(just like He did to the jewish people)abroad also...and indonesia could become barren...but then.. when you and your people would come back to your land....we, filipinos occupied IT....what would you do to us? IT is your land....you'll drive us out, right?...........palestine belongs to the jewish people even though arab were in the land-it didn't meant they owned it.

Dear Sarah, I am not an international lawyer. Most of what I have learned of international law (other than IP Law) was learned here or in reading the Guantanamo/Geneva Convention debates. However, your statement: "The territory of the West Bank and Gaza Strip was captured by Israel in a defensive war, which is a legal means to acquire territory under international law." I find suspect. Perhaps you could cite some international statute which governs in this instance. Please, I welcome whatever education you might provide.

"BAGHDAD, Iraq - Militiamen grabbed six Sunnis as they left Friday worship services, doused them with kerosene and burned them alive as Iraqi soldiers stood by, and seven Sunni mosques came under attack as Shiites took revenge for the slaughter of at least 215 people in the Sadr City slum." That my delusional passing through entity is the consept of equality-Arab style. Even your ditties, poems and Hotspurs will not fix or Humanist man Ronnie Wolman. Karim has the power as have KarimII, Walid and Ziad whenever they get off Al Jazeera. Maral and the other arab woman have no power as they are only chatels.

What "policies of aparthide" do you mean? "policies of aparthide" may be applied to citizens of the same country. Pal Arabs have their country and their goverment. Only policies of war or policies of peace may be applicable to them. Since you don't understand international law you are trying to apply "international low" here.

You claim Israel made more victims than you , wait a minute . Hamas wants 1400 inmates in Israeli prisons for the liberation of ONE kidnapped soldier . Thus ONE Israeli is worth 1400 palestinians [ hamas says it ].So You killed much more Israelis than Israeli killed palestinians

but meantime it was all said by Jeff Northridge (223 at this point).