UN rights body ready to debate Goldstone probe

"b) you are spouting hasbarah nonsense." Sorry Johnyboy that the history and facts of 1967 go against your revisionist history.

The onus is on you. Your claim is so ridiculous that you need to support it with facts. "Legal letters and maps for the legal title to Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria"??!!! The Balfour Declaration spoke of the estblishment of a Jewsih homeland in Palestine that would not put in jeaopardy the well being of the non-Jewish communities. It did not "title" what you call Eretz Yisrael to the Jewish People. These letters and maps you refer to are not the basis for negotiations between Israel and the palestinians. No international jurist would concur that they are legitimate documents that exclude any collective rights of the Palestinian population.

I feel bad for all human life lost and the families involved so why do we never hear about the families of the thirteen Israelis that were murdered during operation Cast Lead. That is so sad that they are ignored.

Everyone who calls themself ethnic jewish today is a descendant from the khazars. The only jews that might have real jewish blood in them are jews than migrated from arab countries and belong to some original tribe, not family, but tribe.

Y: "Considering Israel`s size and geography it would not be able to sustain an assault by both armies at one time." Prior to the Six Day War the US military intelligence estimates were: IF Israel attacks = Israeli victory in a week IF Arabs attack = Israeli victory in two weeks The President then compared that with the British military estimates, which were: IF Israel attacks = Israeli victory in a week IF Arabs attack = Israeli victory in two weeks So I'd have to say that the estimations of the professionals fundamentally differed from your claim that Israel was about to be snuffed out. That their estimate regarding an Israeli first strike was pretty much right on the money I'd also have to suggest that a) they knew what they were talking about b) you are spouting hasbarah nonsense.

You are, of course, entitled to your ideas of what is a crime, but I would suggest that the international legal community may have a very different take on the subject. I suspect theirs is rather more authoritative.

Goldstone cites much more than only Hamas data. Among others physical evidence, movies, pictures, the IDF report, Human rights groups, Israeli soldiers, family of victimes, Israeli politicians, Israeli civillians, Israeli newspapers (like Haaretz). You will find that the IDF report is cited extensively. There is of course the fact that Palestinian cevillians were interviewed. As Goldstone points out there stories cross checked. When you call all Palestinians Hamas, that up to you. I think it is a one sided view.

The report is, in my opinion, quite realistic. All the facts and datas listed are exactly what everyone staying in Gaza during the Cast Lead op told me during my visits too. Not only Pals, but international from different countries. Thousands of pics, films, witnesses. The report is mostly of summary of pure facts. Sad to say, tis is the reflection of Israel in the mirror of history. What a shamefull thing you have done

... it should go to every possible forum and explain itself... ... if those responsible are afraid of being indicted, they should send uninvolved substitutes to make-their-case... ... there is no other way than conforntation... ... as it is now, we are behaving like a herd of hysterical ostriches...

Did not have a chance to answer on previous thread before they removed it. Yaakov, you may be an expert on nude salsa dancing but when it comes to critiquing a complicated matter of the legal jurisdiction all you can offer is to summarily dismiss them as Zionist propaganda. How predictable. I actually went to see the Gauthier presentation and it is hard to dispute what he says because his arguments are supported by legal letters and maps for the legal title to Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria. The fact is that the decision to grant Jewish people the title to establish and re-constitute the Jewish State in Palestine was granted by those powers that were binding legally on all nations. This was never rescinded by the UN Security Council that supplanted the Council of the UN . There were many motions by the General Assembly, ICJ, International Lawyer etc. but these are NOT BINDING. I know that you desperately want to prove it otherwise but Jews have ownership papers for the entire area. If you wish to have an intelligent exchange of opinions you need to counter the arguments on the factual level.

and Hezbollah.

in Serbia, Iraq and Afghanistan and from what knowledge base please? There have been no reports or allegations of war crimes from anyone. Can you publish some links to substantiate your made-up Zio claims? UK forces fight counter-insurgency wars, where infantry take on insurgent fighters man to man in close-quarter battles. They do not hide in a ditch and shell them from afar, nor do they shell civilian areas or shoot civilians. They are a professional army which follows the rule of law. Compare and contrast with Israel, if the Haaretz censor unusually permits They don't take on insurgent fighters man to man in close-quarter battles, do hide in ditches and shell them from afar, shoot civilians and carry out punitive, indiscriminate bombardment of civilian areas. They are a conscript army that follows any old rules, with no regard as to whether or not they conform to the Geneva Conventions. That is why Israel is facing the ICC and civilised western armies are not.

1. Who are these "historians worth anything?" Please refer me to specific sources and do not hide behind vague statements that you hope will not be challenged. 2. If Ben Gurion "took what he could get" does that not suggest that Israel was, to put it mildly, a bit smarter, more practical and readier to compromise than the other side was (and continues to be?) 3. Since we are all "Zionist colonists" may I presume that it is your belief that the premise upon which the State of Israel was established is illegitimate, since you seem to regard Tel Aviv too as a "Zionist colony?" So where do you propose that we all go back to? To Iran? Iraq? Morocco? Poland? Syria? Lybia, perhaps? Do you propose the unconditional return of all refugees, which would effectively mean the end of the State of Israel? Is that what you would like to see, one democratic state a "democratic Palestine"? What a joke; take a look at the Gaza Strip these days for what democracy a la Palestina looks lik

Don - 1967 was not a result of Palestinian trying to claim old land. It was Egypt kicking out the UN blocking the straits if Tiran and massing troops along the border in Sinai. These are facts. Syria also had amassed troops up on the Golan. Considering Israel's size and geography it would not be able to sustain an assault by both armies at one time. Lets not forget Jordan was also in the fray. After weeks of fruitless diplomacy Israel was left with no other choice. Egypt, Syria were playing with fire and got burned. These are historical facts. Once again the Palestinians were the victim of Arab agression. Unlike you I have talked with people firsthand who were living there at the time and fought in those wars. You may not like Israel but please dont rewrite history to serve your agenda.

At 17 it,s a thrill To dream some day you will walk hand in hand in an Arab frei land to the temple on the hill. Maybe when you grow up master 17 you will learn that it was all just a dream.

Correction for you. I dont believe Pervaz Musharraf at the time he was in office was elected. It was a called a coup de etat. Maybe this election was fair but not all were.

Another zionist myth perpetrated, this time, by a ficticious number, 17, implies that because the palestinains were not an independent nation, in the 20th cent. sense, they do not deserve a homeland as one of the "non-Jewish communities whose rights were not to be compromised, as laid out in the Balfour Declaration. The zionists hold up that document as a form of their legitimisation, and to delegitimise the palestinians. 17 must go back how many millenia to when Jews had any form of independence in the land termed by them as Judea and Samaria. His argument is nonsense and has been debunked by historians worth anything. Of course Palestinians didnt accept the partition plan in 1947/48. They were loosing everything and had been for decades to zionist colonisation. Ben Gurion, for the moment with his sights on more in the future, took what was being offered knowing full well even that much is what he could get at that moment.

... turned it into Hamas propaganda...

" Even beforehand, the allies did not steal land from the Germans and Japanese" ?????????????? "Palestinians" never had any Land and when offered some land, they refused.

Dear Mr. Ice, The hate-induced ignorance of you and some of your colleagues on these talkbacks screams out to high heaven. One quarter of the residents of Israel are not Arabs, for one. But, Mr. Ice, Israeli Arabs are citizens in every sense of the word. They can vote, sir! Did you think they could not? And most Israeli Arabs will tell you that they refer to themselves as "Palestinians with Israeli citizenship" which in itself refutes the nonsense you have written here! If you're going to hate Israel at least hate it with knowledge not with ignorance and stupidity.

My dear friend. a correction for you.. Pakistan is a democratically elected government. Actually more democratic than your beloved Israel where 1/4 of the population is considered as 'resident' and not even citizens. In case you fail to realize, I am talking about the israeli Arabs.

The fact that other people commit crimes does not excuse yours. Instead of continually bringing up other people's crimes, why not speak to Israel's? Or are you afraid to?

History is clear. When Pal and Arab forces prepared to attack Israel to ty and regain property stolen from Pal refugees, Israel started the war with a preemptive strike. The most important fact, though, is that it occurred in 1967, not 1948. By 1967, there existed a body of international law and international organizations unprecedented in history. They had unequivocally and unabiguously dclared that no more shall land be taken in war. Even beforehand, the allies did not steal land from the Germans and Japanese, but this ethos had not yet been written and agreed to by most of the World. Israel, a signatory to the Geneva Conventions and UN Charter, considers itself above the law and sadly believes Jews have the right to kill and steal from Pals because of ethnicity and religion. This is precisely the mentality that makes war so likely and international law so important.

isn't that just the point? Only data from Hamas sort of makes it the biased report it is. One member of the committee had already decided the Israelis were guilty. Canada, US, and other Democratic countries thought the same bias was present. It's stupid to lob rockes at a neighbor and expect them not to eventually do something about it. Hamas is just ignorant.

I am always a bit amused that Zionist apologists always focus entirely on the number of missles, never on the fact that very few of them do any harm, most falling harmlessly into the desert. Fewer than 25 Israelis have died in Qassam attacks (last count I heard was 21). This in no way justifies or excuses the firing of unaimed rockets more likely to hit civilians than soldiers. That is a despicable practice I have always and will always condemn. But a kill raio of 1400:38 is extreme and undeniably disproportionate, especially since hundreds of the Palestinians killed were civilian noncombatants. Had Israel gone in focusing on Qassam firing fields and Hamas facilities, had it not destroyed schools, hospitals, apartment buildings and UN facilities, had it not deliberately timed and planned operations to maximize civilian terror (as found in Goldstone), there would be no Goldstone Report and most objections would be only from those who have always hated Israel.

to Hezbollah or maybe Syria. UN better start their investigations. Good job US Navy!

Resolutions calling for criminal prosecution of anyone criticizing Islam or Islamic practices have already been formally adopted by the inappropriately named UN Human Rights Council and subsequently by the UN General Assembly. The discredited UN Human Rights Council, which concentrates the bulk of its efforts on delegitimizing Israel, has now formally endorsed a resolution prohibiting any discussion during its proceedings that could be deemed to be critical of Islam, Moslem practice or Shar'ia law. Yet this same body has shamelessly avoided condemning human rights violations including the genocidal killings by the barbaric Islamic Sudanese government at Darfur. To know more : http://xrl.us/bmm2v

Sir , Sorry to upset you. Ethnicity is absolutely politically co-sher. You are not a Jew. You are an Irish American practicing whatever you like. I celebrate Patrick Day and would be happy to have a beer with you.

Madame, They never had any land - once they were offered some but they refused.

The Palestinians are fighting for their land. The Israelis are fighting to take more and more of the land. Let the UN determine who is the aggressor. Let Israels methods be examined and judged before the world.

Israel should have let the press cover the Gaza war. It would have proofs of Hamas fighters killing children, bombing hospital, using phosphorous bombs on civilians and so on ... It is really too bad, no ?

Just like Hizbullah in Lebenon, Hamas is now in control of the Palestinian agenda. Abbas relinquished control by holding back the Goldstone report. Now there is only one definite address in the ME - Iran. Netanyahu drove Israel into the ground at record speed, with Libermans help. Lesson: Never appoint a bouncer for FM, and never appoint a union leader for DM. The other way round can work better.

Jewish by any Ribbinic authority? You mean the Rabbis that are decendants of the Khazars who have not one drop of blood of the ancient Israelites? The Khazars converted from their paganism to Talmudism in the 9th century. They began being called "Jews" in the 13th century. These the guys you think give you ligitimacy?

-"Egypt announced earlier this week that a deal to reconcile the bitterly divided factions, set to be signed on October 25, would now be delayed by several weeks due to the internal row."- and you fell for that one? The signatures will be on the agreement October 25:th.

British war crimes will never be tried. There is one set of rules for Israel, another for the rest of the world.

Mr "17", Frankly, your categories of "Jew" are based on luft and like that world have more in common with Nuremberg Laws than Judaism. More than a bit racial, sir, but then that should be expected from one who supports a racialist occupation. As for Leanard Cohen, I believe he is observant but might not fit into your racialist 1936 categories. As for the Arab parties in the Knesset, the present government is trying to dislodge them for all sorts of reasons and they are not really part of political life in Israel. They are mere window dressing meant to keep up the illusion that an ethnocracy is a democracy. I hope that clarifies things for you. mr 17.

Barak signs almost every day an order throwing ourt Jews from their homes in what he considers illegal settlement. In my opinion throwing out Jews from their homes in Judea and Samaria qualifies as a war crime, and he should be punished whether for one reason or another: he is still a war criminal and justice should be handed out to him for whatever reason. Barak, see what happens when you kiss up to the arabs, it's never enough.

It is impossible to tell what surprises might appear when the committee debates the report. An open discussion may reveal conclusions which Goldstone did not or would not make?

In Serbia ,Afghanistan and Iraq?

Sir, I am not concerned with your spelling - I should be concerned with mine. You are a non-Jew practicing Judaism, similarly to Chris Linthwate - a Jew (non)practicing Christianity or Leonard Cohen - a Jew practicing Buddhism. Rabbinical bodies may of course think differently You statement regarding "democracy for Jews only" missed out several Arab parties presented in the Knesset - but again, you may think differently.

Nope. We just share the same city, and roughly the same outlook.

I do hope old bean you find all the details you are looking for in the link provided. ", Israel cannot use such an argument to excuse its war crimes in Gaza...what war crimes...details please."James to brit #7 http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf Aha --but do you have the courage or patience to read it.????

Very well said, Peter, but I suspect that palmor and his crowd have a direct line to every senator and gongressperson in the US. Has Israel questioned the Goldstone reports on Rwanda and Bosnia? Does Israel claim that that too is aiding "terror" aroung the world?

Thanking you for pointing that out. I really must employ spell check when I post. You are correct. I am not "Jewsih" by anyones authority. However, I certainly am "Jewish" by the standards of any rabbinic authority.

.. I would laugh. You just have to look at the list of supporters to this motion and consider their "righteousness" to point the finger!

"Disproportionate force" means that many people and countries resent the fact that Israel has a military advantage and thus create new rules where the militarily superior power must respond with "proportionate force" when attacked. Of course, this standard only applies when Israel is the militarily superior power. I don't recall anyone requiring Sri Lanka to use proportionate force when fighting the Tamil Tigers or the US when fighting in Afghanistan or the Lebanese army when fighting in Islamic extremists.

Israel has the duty to protect her citizens from terrorism and violence. -Yariv Keeping the Palestinians in an open air prisonis not self defense. Resisting an occupying army keeping them in an open air prison is the legetimate right of the Palestinian freedom fighters.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said. "We still think that this report is very dangerous and is disconnected from reality. This report was based almost exclusively on Hamas propaganda." What on earth in the Foreign Ministry thinking of. How do they rate people's intelligence in allowing such a bizarre assertion to be made under their auspices. Is the FM of Israel asserting that judge Goldstone is a guileless puppet of Hamas? Has the man even deigned to read the introduction, let alone troubled himself to wade through that meticulously ordered analysis of the available data. Keep it up. No one listens anymore to such declarations, except the usual crew of hyperbolists here and in other forums.

"if you are Jewsih as defined by religius authorities." YS ______ Are you?

Western democracies are based on a constitution and have constitutional rights, Israel does not have a constitution - South Africa during aparthy was a democracy

Britain did not blow up the houses of those IRA members who planted bombs. That's for starters and you did not responde to the information provided on Sri Lanka and the response from the UN. Israel is a rogue nation, one that has provided support to the apartheid regime in South Africa and blostered the regimes, finacially and militarily of some of the worst despots in Africa. That's your democracy. Democracy exists in Israel if you are Jewsih and even then only if you are Jewsih as defined by religius authorities.

to flee to the Sinai.

and the sanctimonious paragons of human morals and virtue such as Bahrain, Bangladesh, Bolivia, China, Cuba, Djibouti, Egypt, Gabon, Indonesia, Jordan, Mauritius, Nicaragua, Nigeria, Pakistan, Philippines, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Senegal see fit to judge us. Pathetic. Add to this the ignominious Nobel Prize committee that ignores the true heroes (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/and-the-other-nobel-peace-prize-nominees-were-1801350.html) while awarding the incompetent BHO who is busy sending Predators over Afghanistan/Pakistan killing women & children. Yes folks, the world is sick & getting sicker. We have absolutely nothing for which to excuse ourselves.

It is certainly not a "democracy" for Palestinians who live under a more than 40 yr occupation as you take land for no reason other than demographic advantage. Israel is an ethnocracy. As for how the WB was acquired, there have been great changes since 1967 and most of the land in East Jerusalem and the West Bank has not been acquired legally, as is recognised by the international community.

, Israel cannot use such an argument to excuse its war crimes in Gaza...what war crimes...details please.

But Hamas was!!

White is white and black is black. Where is the problem? Israels strategy is extremly weak. Israel does not speak with its neighbors. Israel calls them Terrorists etc. There is no excuse.

Just curious---????. The only snow job pulled was by Israel---refusing to participate in their own defence. Always better for an innocent party to show up at the trial or preliminary investigation or public enquiry. You get the idea ---dont you--jasper.

"And by the way, the EU has already stopped aid to Sri Lanka because of their human rights abuse"..Ok wow and is that what you call war crimes investigation just closing the checkbook. Please go peddle that bullshit to someone else. Now you can call Israel a murderer and whatever else however Israel has the duty to protect her citizens from terrorism and violence. Like it or not Israel was doing what any other country would have done. INcluding your sacred Britain.

Your claim that Israel has stolen land for the past "40 years" is rehashed revisionist history. We all know how Israel obtained the West Bank and Gaza but we will not rehash historical facts. Like it or not Israel is a democracy. Whether you have issues with her policies does not negate this fact.

When all it takes to win is for terrorists to hide behind their women's skirts and their toddler's T shirts, civilization loses. Goldstone is a disgrace to any thinking person.

Yes, Yariv, the UN human Rights Council should investigate and debate the war crimes in Sri Lanka. However, just as one murderer cannot complain that another has not been brought to trial yet, Israel cannot use such an argument to excuse its war crimes in Gaza. And by the way, the EU has already stopped aid to Sri Lanka because of their human rights abuse.

Israel claims to hold itself to the standards of a western style democracy. That is the first lie. Second, the fact that Israel has occupied another people and stolen their land through various ruses for over 40 yrs simply puts it in the category of the 18 countries you lambast for their own violations. You give yourself away when you refer to Judge Goldstone as a "devil". War crimes are war crimes, whoever commits them and in this case it is Israel, and not for the first time. Interesting that none of the refutations put forward by Israel in response to the report can be substantiated. Israel is guilty and it will be held accountable. Just deal with it and work to make Israel a real emocracy rather than a sham.

i really dont understand the whole "disproportionate force" thing... in war are you supposed to relax a bit? makes no sense... 8000 rockets into israel is not "disproportionate" though is it? I never understood this theory that just because Gaza rockets usually land in open fields it becomes somehow excusable...

Did you all see the list of countries asking for a review of the report? The majority of of these nations are not democratically elected ( China, Pakistan and Cuba) to name a few. Many are accused of committing human rights abuses and yet are going to decide the fate of this slanderous report. Can some same moral hypocrisy. Last spring Secretary Ban was in Sri Lanka and was aghast at the carnage after that nations battle with the Tamil tigers. According to reports around seven thousand civilians were killed. I dont see him or the rest of the UN in an approar. I dont see Goldstone the devil going their to investigate "war crimes". Fact of the matter is Goldstone, and the rest of the UN are not concerned about the plight of the innocent only the defamation and slander of Israel who is held to a different standard than the rest of the world. Instead of promoting peace the UN is promoting hate and legitimizing terrorism and that my friends is morally reprehensible.

around 90 years to be precise !!

They each represent two extremes and they each ignore the mass of Palestinians between who only want a peaceful viable state and proceed into the future. But the two parties are power hungry and willing to sacrifice their own people for their personal gain and agendas. Meanwhile, Palestine wallows in civil strife, and Israel continues to develop as a vital, democratic, modern country. Palestinians must have democracy and include everyone inorder to get out of their rut.

That the US doesn't want you to reconcile with Hamas? Read all about it in today's Haaretz: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1120633.html "U.S. to Egypt: Fatah-Hamas deal undermines Israel-PA talks"