U.S. school stops Hebrew classes for promoting Judaism

I never knew hebrew was even taught in high schools in america...Only language I had to choose from was latin, spanish or french. If they add german, then I'll take a foreign class. But those 3 above are a joke.

It is pretty safe to say that the bible did not penetrate very far into ancient Asia. How do you explain the humanism in Asia's cultures?

There are plenty of Hebrew conversation and grammar texts that don't involve religion, just as there are French and Spanish texts that don't. Morris Friedman's America is an island, cut off from the rest of the world.

Most of you, guys, are missing a point. The school in question is not private -it is a charter school, operating with the taxpayers money. The language itself is not a problem - it's the curriculum that is! Somehow the Jewish teachers can't separate teaching the language from teaching the loyalty to Israel instead of the US. Yes, in America schools are offering instructions in many foreign languages, but the instructions are culturaly neutral. Not so with the Jews! They go for indoctrination! Lay it off, and the school wull be opened again.

Please specify what preferential treatment Catholics and Protestants get in the Constitution.

I have read the people got also very angry with him over the Grapes of Wrath. "The area has retained its beauty" The willow trees, do they still exist? I suppose we have to interrumpt this talk, which is off topic. Many thanks, Mark.

I cannot claim a relation in Steinbeck. We just attended the same high school. At the time of his death, his works were being studied and taught. But he, himself, was still personna non grata because of "East of Eden." Today, his former home is a museum. But the population has grown from a relatively small 25,000 to over 150,000. The area has retained its beauty because the expansion has mostly stretched north of the original city. It is still a huge vegetable farming center.

Hello. Many thanks for your post. By reading only others, one would think any mention to religion was a crime.:) I had heard of Home Schools and believe it is an interesting idea.

?I went to and graduated from the same high school as Steinbeck? Did you? Really? This is a surprise, indeed. I love his works. Salinas and its surroundings must be a beautiful place. I know from Steinbeck novels. So you are related to Steinbeck in some way, :)

Reading my post, I see my fingers still work at a different speed than my brain. In the first paragraph, "dies" should hav been in the past tense, "died." In the second paragraph, "grandchildren" should read "grandparents."

I went to and graduated from the same high school as Steinbeck. He dies the year I graduated. His novels (eight of them) were required reading during the four years. "East of Eden" was not included because many of the characters in the book were the grandchildren of my classmates. He had only changed the spellings of the names to an alternate phonetic spelling.

I believe there is now much propaganda against religion, also in Europe, which frightens me. I am not especially religious ( maybe I could be defined as secular). But this anti-religious obsession makes me suspicious and alert.

Hello, again. You are right we cannot compare the US and the tiny European countries. What you say reminds me of something I read in a book by Steinbeck, ?America and Americans?, which was useful for me to understand your country a little better. Very interesting reading.

You say you do not want to spend tax dollars to promote any religion. I did not mean to promote any religion. As far as I am concerned, religion is a part of culture and one society?s set of values. So if you do not want to spend tax dollars in this, from my point of view, it is the same as if you said, ?I do not want to spend tax dollars in the teaching of history (or whatever)?.

What an amazing example of the gap between two cultures. The US views religion as a private matter and to protect against State imposed religion, restricts the use of tax payers $ to fund religious education. In Israel we cannot even get the haredim to learn a core curriculum so maybe one day they can support themsleves though we pay 100% of the school costs. In the state religious schools (my kids went)they openly berate oterh streams of Judaism which make up the majority in the US (Reform and conservative), do not explain from an historical perpsective Spinoza or humanistic concepts of Judaism, all paid for by taxpayers. We need 90% of the US restrictions and they need 1% of our flexibility.

Thank you for the post. I have known since my beginning studies (circa 1960) of the great 6th-7th c. scholar, the encyclopedic bishop of Seville who mastered Latin, Greek, Hebrew from his great Trivium and Quadrivium teachers and that he introduced Aristotle to Iberia long before the Arab scholars began to appreciate the Greek writings. But there was little follow-up due to the chaotic conditions and a dark period in Europe, with the result that very few scholars (mostly clerics) had great knowledge of Greek. Isidoro's greatness does not prevent appreciation of the Arab translators of Baghdad, who made accessible the scientific and philosophical works of secular Greek literature. Also a factor was the revolution in paper production, which made diffusion possible. A good book is "Greek Thought, Arab Culture: the Graeco-Arabic Translation Movements in Baghdad and Early 'Abbasid Society" by Dimitri Gutas. Thank you very kindly. chau

"Making a link between judasism and hebrew is like comparing latin and catholocism, and German with fascism." Do you foresee a non-Jew attending this school? If not then Hebrew does equal Judaism. I would imagine that the Arabic school in NYC will have students who are not Muslim. "Both these languages are taught at the taxpayers expense. So why shouldn`t hebrew take equal place to these languages?" Taught as a second language and as an elective class - fine. Conducting other classes in Hebrew - maybe the student should move to Israel.

At some point I wish that the US could learn from other countries such as the UK or Australia, where it is possible to both seperate church and state and fund secular studies at Jewish schools. Currently, many Jewish parents in the US have to both pay high school taxes for schools that they do not use or from which they do not directly benefit, and then, on top of that, pay an extra 12-20,000 dollars per kid to attend Jewish day school, an institution which has, only slightly tongue-in-cheek, been referred to as modern Orthodox birth control. If the US could follow the example of Australia or the UK, and either offer a national voucher system or fund the secular studies in Jewish day schools (cutting the tuition at least in half), we might be spared stupidities such as the charter school fiasco in Florida. On the other hand, one corrolary is that high day school tuition has forced quite a number of families to move here (thereby dimininshing the local tax bases).

Kids still can be involved in a class exchange of cards on Valentine's day or art projects for parents. Halloween is subject to school rules. Usually principles decide on those issues.

"As long as these electives dont teach intolerance!)" I SO agree! And like you, I support enhanced religious expression.

I obviously meant to say: "... the time of Moses possibly in the 13th century but IMO 16th century [B]CE." In my opinion: the 16th-century BCE destruction layer in the ancient town of Jericho is evidence for when (at least some) Israelites returned to Israel from Egypt (during skirmishes BEFORE the Hyksos Expulsion). Thus, Moses tentatively dates to the decades before this event. For about three centuries, these Israelites continued to live "semi-nomadically" in tents, like they did in Egypt, like their ancestor Avraham did before them. The Israelites didnt "urbanize" (build permanent buildings) across Judea and Samaria, until the 13th century BCE. There are still problems that need explanations, but the above timeline is the one I accept.

Amarica 3 wrongly claims: "The [Hindu] Bhagavad Gita is thousands of years older than the [Jewish] Torah." In fact, the Bhagavad Gita's date is uncertain but probably dates to around the 5th to 2nd century BCE. By contrast the Tora is older! Its date is also uncertain but (in the form we now have it) probably dates no later than the 6th century BCE, with traditions that it dates to the time of Moses possibly in the 13th century (but IMO 16th century) CE. A safe estimate has the Tora is at least one century more ancient than the Bhagavad Gita. Perhaps the Tora is at least a thousand years more ancient!

Mark Lincoln: "Spending tax dollars to promote ANY religion is a violation of the US Constitution." The above is just antireligious wishful thinking. In fact, the US government CAN teach religion! Tax dollars cant "establish" coercively a particular religion. But tax dollars CAN teach VOLUNTARILY about a particular religion, as long as other religions (or antireligions) arent discriminated against. The US enforces FREEDOM of religions and forbids oppression against religions. The US guarantees the FREE SPEECH of religious people. In class rooms too. The establishment of any ANTIRELIGIOUS curriculum is a violation of the US Constitution.

I totally support this policy! (As long as these electives dont teach intolerance!) -Unfortunately most do, by teaching that you are saved or chosen you in effect teach seperation, superiority and indeed intolerance. Much in the same way if someone taught that aryans are somehow chosen or special, it would in effect teach intolerance. Or teaching that idolatry (something millions of hindus and buddhist do) is wrong and that god will send them to hell....intolerance...this does not belong in schools. Many taxpayers are hindu or buddhist, in fact the wealthiest ethnic group in ameirca are indian americans, I am sure that they would not approve of a school teaching students that they are special (Brahmin or untouchables, or chosen, or saved) or that idolatry is wrong and bad.

Gina: "On a voluntary basis, with parental permission, students are allowed to study the Bible with a religious or spiritual context in many school districts for an hour, depending on the availability of volunteers." I didnt know this. I totally support this policy! (As long as these electives dont teach intolerance!)

"ALL OF ANYONE, ANYWHERE`S `HUMANISM` ORIGINATES FROM THE HEBREW BIBLE." How egotistical and self centered of you...you are ofcourse wrong, Sanskrit is the oldest language (written and spoken) in the world, the Bhagavad Gita is thousands of years older than the torah, in fact, its origins are traced well beyond 6,000 years old, a time when the torah said the world didn't even exist. Read your history, as I said before on other post, the Hebrew bible was influenced heavily be the Zoroastrians and the Mesopotamians, which is where just came from, as an example of this is the story of Noah, which is an old mesopotamian story, written and told long time before the torah was ever written. But read the history of Sanskrit, or its influences on the Zoroastrians adn ofcourse the Buddhist, and later the Semites.

C: "I agree, so the Koran should be banned as an intolerant book." In principle I agree, but therere many complications. One... Even the Bible has certain verses that can be taken out of context to teach hate and intolerance. (Against women, gays, Nonjews, idolators, etc.) In their proper historical and linguistic CONTEXT, these verses dont teach hate but have been abused to do so. Example: The term "Nonjews" (Goyim) in CONTEXT may refer to a SPECIFIC Nonjewish group who were actively trying to destroy the Jewish people. Obviously therere different ethical principles for dealing with Nonjewish enemies verses Nonjewish members of the Jewish people (Gerim). Plus neutrals. Perhaps, a "conditional-ban" on specific verses is better, that can only be published if easily-seen notes explain their proper context. A Tanakh can be sold with notes (footnotes, insets, appendix or pamphlet), with Rabbinic commentary to properly understand such verses. A Quran needs MANY notes.

be rational not emotional, what are you talking about? Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all abrahamic religions, all based on the torah. In fact, Islam and Judaism are more alike than Judaism and Christianity. Both Muslims and Jews view Christianity as being very paganistic, with the worship of the cross, an idol symbol. Muslim and jews, both who have dietary restrictions perform many of the same rituals to make something kosher or halal, in fact I Muslim will not eat meat that was killed by Christian because of their paganism but is allowed to eat meat that was killed by a jew. What else...let me see...look at the torah, its very much taken from many other old religions, one of which is Zorostrian, the story of Noah for example, is an old Mesopotamian tale, told and written long before the torah. PEACE

logically, when there is a Hebrew class, you must have books, characters (as John and Susan when you learn english, and they go to Picadilly Circus.... in the book) But Yoram and Gueula in Tel Aviv go to somewhere of israeli origin of course, what do you expect?

KUTW: "Some people [use the word] 'fundamentalism' for any religious faith, and under this excuse, try to have [religious faiths] banned. Isn't this anti-religious fundamentalism?" Exactly! Any ideology can become "fundamentalistic", especially antireligious ideologies.

A lot of our structures of government are traditional, left over from the early days. Unlike many other countries, the movement of people preceeded any form of government into new territory. Later, when territorial (regional) capitals were designated, they were frequently several days travel from where lots of people lived. When local people saw a need, they did it them selves.

I assume you are 12 years old, because it is ridiculous what you are asking..... it does not deserve even an answer. I hope no one does.

KUTW spending tax dollars to promote ANY religion is a violation of the US Constitution. It is, no doubt, possible to teach culture without promoting it. The instructors in Florida seem to ignore the difference.

what did they do about haloween and valentines day?these 2 also are catholic/protestant religious days dressed up as harmless "fun" for kids at school but catching on now as excuses for adult drinking parties.

Bible studies are allowed on campuses. Bible as Literature is offered in many schools. And further, on a voluntary basis, with parental permission, students are allowed to study the Bible with a religious or spiritual context in many school districts for an hour, depending on the availability of volunteers. Also, there is a growing, vibrant Home School movement, where Christian parents home school their children with a religious curriculum interweaved in their studies. Often with a local church participating. I'm sure Americans of other faiths take advantage of this as well. Last I researched, there were about 2 million kids being homeschooled. Homeschooled children regularly win or place high in spelling bees, math bees, science bees, and so forth. Very popular with Christians.

To try to separate Jewish history, literature and culture from Jewish religious faith is ridiculous! Judaism knows of no such distinction. Here in England the Government pays for the secular studies in many Orthodox Jewish schools and the parents pay for the Jewish half of the curriculum. This makes far more sense.

Charter schools are publically funded and the American taxpayer should not be paying for a Hebrew language school with their tax dollars. Learing Hebrew is fine, but it has do be done on the parents' own dime, not the taxpayer's. People have long sent their children to Hebrew classes, just as they have sent them to French classes and Chinese classes. But to expect the American taxpayer to fund a Hebrew school is unreasonable and should not happen. Public schools are not religious affiliated and that's the way it should be.

may the God of the Bible open your eyes because the god of this world[satan]has truly blinded you.2corinthians 4:4.don't turn those christians away when they witness to you.revelation 3:20

the god of the muslims and the God of the jews are not the same.the god of the muslims has eyes,but can't see;has hands,but can't handle. the creator of the universe is the true God of true christians and the jewish people.you should know about this-you're living in the civilized world like the usa.

Then each district can adapt the schools to the circumstances in the area. Many thanks for your explanations, which are really interesting. Then each district can adapt the schools to the circumstances in the area. Many thanks for your explanations, which are really interesting. The US is so large a country that you have invented ways to get organized, huh?

We seem to have swept a lot of human history under the rug. I feel very badly about that part of education. My 14 year old's teacher was beyond surprised when he knew about and could name ME countries. She also was shocked when he knew the largest Muslim country, and info on China. We have a lot of books and we look at them frequently to answer questions the kids might ask. We also have a very diverse family. We are sort of the UN of families.

Tolerance and respect for other's beliefs is part of the curriculum, in our school district, but as part of teaching about the civil rights era for the most part and in a historical context. I'm not sure how other school districts handle it. Likewise, morals and ethics are included by the classroom teacher, but not as seperate subjects, but interwoven into other parts of the curriculum. One thing to remember about American public schools is that each district makes its own decisions within a State framework of curriculum. The federal government's only influence comes through the strings attached to a state's or local district's use of federal money. The vast majority of funding for our public schools is local. State and federal aid are almost viewed as foreign aid. The local school district is close to being the most basic level of government we have in many places, even more basic than town or city or county government. Local control of the schools is jelously guarded.

Bible studies are allowed on campuses. Bible as Literature is offered in many schools. And further, on a voluntary basis, with parental permission, students are allowed to study the Bible with a religious or spiritual context in many school districts for an hour, depending on the availability of volunteers. Also, there is a growing, vibrant Home School movement, where Christian parents home school their children with a religious curriculum interweaved in their studies. Often with a local church participating. I'm sure Americans of other faiths take advantage of this as well. Last I researched, there were about 2 million kids being homeschooled. Homeschooled children regularly win or place high in spelling bees, math bees, science bees, and so forth. Very popular with Christians.

I see the core of the matter is the law. Then there is nothing else to be discussed. Although I understand the problem with younger children but cannot when it comes to others.If the question is to respect others? believes, why can you do it not knowing those beliefs?

I agree, so the Koran should be banned as an intolerant book.

Are you kidding me? It is funny that your examples are hundreds if not thousands of years old, the arabs have been in the dark ages ever since. They don't understand that being a smart is stronger than being a brute, they are brutes, jews are smart...who has always won? Look at the technological advancements in the arab world...oh wait, there aren't any. They chop each others head today as they did 1,000 years ago, as even Mohhamed the man of "peace" did, and they will be cutting each others hear 1000 years from now, as the rest of the world leaves them in the dust. PEACE

The region as a whole was very much influenced by the hindu tradition, which I believe you could trace Zorastronism and Buddhism as hindus offshoots. Sanskrit being the oldest written and spoken language in the modern world (over 6,000 years old, many say 10,000 but not sure about that) .... the idea of a one god is very old indeed, and in many way was influenced by hinduism, although hinduism is more universal and less sectarian than the offshoots in the semitic and persion lands, the BUddhist retained this universal view of life.

I said that religion is a minefield for public school teachers for several reasons, many of which can get a teacher, even one with tenure, fired. First, it is not part of the curriculum because of the First Amendment prohiition (including several Supreme Court rulings) against a public endorsement of a particular religion. Discussing particular religious beliefs can be viewed as proseletizing which is forbidden. Also, if any particular student's beliefs feel challenged, that kids parents will be calling for the teacher's head by about an hour after school is out for the day. This makes some subjects, especially at the lower grades very difficult. Last year, while teaching a reading class for 11 year olds, the text included a reference to the Children's Crusade. One of the kids asked the question in class wanting to know what that meant. At this age, kids have not been exposed in any prior curriculum to the Crusades or even much world history.

I do not mean to force the people to believe one or the other, but to teach them. Teaching religions does not mean not to respect others. What I say here is my personal viewpoint, of course. I suppose you know better what happens in the US. Anyway I find the conversation very interesting. I am learning things I did not know.

Now it is Winter Break and Spring Break. With no mention of Easter or Christmas.

If the religious institution is a necessary part of the history, as in the medieval church, the reasons for the importance are given, such as keeping a language alive, but the dogma of that institution is not taught. Islam is mentioned when studying the Arabian Peninsula, but the Koran is not taught to the students. Religion is not taboo, just a private and personal affair between a human and their GOD. We have so many different religions in the US and all have to be respected. Forcing the Hindu minority to learn Christian dogma is anathema to our Constitution.

I see some people ?fundamentalism? to any religious faith and, under this excuse, try to have it banned. Isn?t it anti-religious fundamentalism?

There seems to be a lot of ignorance on this subject on all sides, so let me add a historical note. Between WWI and WWII there was a vigorous secular school system based on Yiddish, mainly in Poland, but also in other countries around the world, and supported by strong secular Jewish movements. Yiddish was the real, living language of the East European Jews and it also became a great literary language. The Germans killed most of the Yiddish-speakers. And the East European Jews who created Israel--seeking to recreate a new national character--spurned Yiddish in favor of a language that hadn't been in everyday secular use for over 2000 years. So we are left with Hebrew. As a practical matter it is only spoken in Israel. It is the Israeli language, it isn't the Jewish language. More Jews speak English than Hebrew. In principle one ought to be able to run a secular Hebrew school in the US, but in practice it would be tied to Israel, which isn't secular state.

I highly doubt it. We Jews have been pretty good at taking care of ourselves. Bible-thumpers have a different agenda for us when all is said and done, and I don't care for that any more than "davening out of a Qur'an". No disrespect intended, but please leave us alone!

This about sums it up pretty nicely, except to say that it's more than cultural, religion is the key, and not merely the excuse to strike it from public schools.

If it doesn't apply to Arabic, why Hebrew then?

Even Spanish-only public schools would likely not be allowed.

As Jordan puts it (post 92), when you do Latin and Greek, you have to study the culture and religion as a part of it as well. Why has it to be different when it comes to modern languages?

Hello, hala. I am sending you these links. I am sure you will find it interesting. It is about Greek in medieval Europe. http://www.artehistoria.jcyl.es/historia/personajes/4885.htm http://www.elalmanaque.com/etimologias/etimo.htm Read the 7th paragraph here http://www.autorescatolicos.org/diegoquinonesestevez59.htm

Hello, Mark. ?T he United States Constitution was only ratified under the condition that it be amended to prohibit a state religion.? One thing is that the state has no official religion, which I understand and agree on, and a different matter is that religion cannot be taught, as if it was banned. I did not mean you have to try and convince others into one or the other belief. I was referring to religion as a historical and social fact. Isn?t it funny that this problem does not exist with Philosophy, political and economic systems, etc.?

Hello. Thanks for your response. I find it strange that religions are not taught when history of cultures are. Religion seems to be taboo, doesn?t it?

Hello, again. Thanks for your explanation, which is so complete. I would like to ask you another question. Why is religion a minefield?

Indeed it is happy that the situation is not like this anymore in the most parts of the civilized world, Mark. You would be surprised to learn that in Scandinavia, which has no historic tradition of ethnicity-mixtures, are about to become more and more discriminative to everybody different. A surname is enough to be rejected for inst. from labour market! There are wonderful anti-discriminative-laws, both national and the EU, but then there are also new national laws beside them, which repeal them and enable discrimination! UNBELIEVABLE, but true. Here the hoot becomes painful reality! Not by me but by the legislation! What America left behind and grew out of....some countries in the North-European latitudes are heading towards to with full steam on...over 50 years later! We are moving "backwards". I find this scary!

Whenever ANYONE hears Arabic he thinks of Islam? Speak for yourself, Yah. I immediately think of 1001 Nights, the Tawq al hamamah, The Perfumed Garden (a medieval sex manual), muwassaha, zejel, treatises on algebra and medicine, Arabic translations made in Baghdad and Al-Andalus of Greek works that would otherwise have disappeared, Khalil Gibran and so many more. The Arabic world comprises a much vaster and nobler space than your limited mind can possibly imagine.

Thanks, I did read it. I personally think the whole argument (re: separation of church and state) has gone so over the top that people can't be sensible on the issue any more. Religion can and should be taught wherever there is teaching going on. It's the 'choice' that people have to have protected. And, I also don't believe anyone can teach Hebrew without reference to either the Torah or to Israel. And it shouldn't be avoided. As an American, I'm appalled at the current blacklisting of anything religious in the US. Sad. What's the next step? Maybe 'Public libraries' will be forced to remove any books on religion too?

Hebrew is the language of The Bible and the language of God. ALL OF ANYONE, ANYWHERE'S 'HUMANISM' ORIGINATES FROM THE HEBREW BIBLE.

Interesting point about Hebrew being a tribal language. But I cannot agree with you on the interpretation of the word GOY, since it simply refers to a person, as the Latin word GENS means people, the word GENTILIS being derived from it, which is the English GENTILE and used as a translation of the Hebrew GOY. Are you thinking of the word SHIKSA, which is very offensive, related to the word for unclean, as an animal? Also, Hebrew was used as a religious language. The everyday speech was Aramaic.

I agree that students in American public schools should learn English (alas, many never do) and all about the United States. But I hope that you do not object to the teaching of other languages, such as French, Spanish, especially since the Latin countries and Quebec are not far from the USA. Also, bilinguals avoid dementia for about four years longer than monolinguals. And so many Americans are totally in the dark about geography, other religions, etc. However, I do agree that if one wishes the child to be educated in one's culture, there should be weekend schools where only the native language should be spoken and the entire curriculum focuses on that nationality. I myself, as a newly arrived immigrant child, spent every Saturday attending our ethnic school and even though I often hating giving up a part of my weekend, I was so much more sophisticated and educated than the monolingual, monocultural American pupils.

I myself had to teach Evolution to a class whose students were almost entirely Christian fundamentalists. I told them, "You dont have to believe in Evolution, but you must understand why other people believe in Evolution." I then carefully explained the evidence, step by step, from the seriation of fossile records to comparative DNA. When students can see the evidence for themselves, they dont have difficulty with Evolution. I then spent a few days covering ways that the Bible can be understood to accommodate Evolution. (Eg, Genesis doesnt describe the beginning of time, but rather the beginning of the human awareness of time, because of the Bronze Age invention of writing and its ability to see records from the past.) Students who agreed with Evolution could integrate their personal experiences in a workable way. Students who objected to Evolution could articulate their concerns effectively. In the end, I and my students enjoyed the class very much.

Religious subjects can be taught in a secular school. Secular universities have ZERO DIFFICULTY when studying religious subject matters. Anything can be studied scientifically! Even subjective mystical experiences can be described per phenomenology, per textual criticism, per cultural comparisons, per historical developments, etc. etc. In fact, it is vital for the 21st century citizens to get a grasp on what religion is and how it works! This understanding is good for both religious and nonreligious adherants. I see no reason why the same rules that apply to university cant be applied to high school! As long as these kinds of classes are elective and noncompulsory, and as long as they dont teach intolerance, there's no problem.

If a class teaches Ancient Greek, especially Koine Greek, it may be necessary to read passages from the New Testament. Likewise, there are various dialects of Hebrew, that students may need to focus on: Modern Israeli Hebrew, Biblical Hebrew, Mishnaic Hebrew, Medieval Hebrew. Perhaps the Hebrew textbook sites Hebrew passages from the Sidur prayer book (which anthologizes all of these dialects). On the one hand, the Sidur is precisely one of the texts that Jewish-studies students must be able to master. On the other hand, most of these passages are, by definition, worshiping the Jewish God. If so, its is a legitimate dilemma. Hopefully they can optimize a solution that adresses both concerns as best as possible.

"I am adamant about my right to be free from religion AND the right of fundamentalists to practice theirs." For the sake of clarification: Fundamentalists dont just have the right to "practice" their religion, they have the right to EXPRESS their religion. Freedom of speech. Freedom of worship. Etcetera. On the other hand, fundamentalists dont have a right to be INTOLERANT. They must (be forced to) acknowledge your right to freely express your nonreligious beliefs. The solution isnt absence of religion. The solution is appreciation for the plurality of distinctive religious/nonreligious viewpoints.

Thomas Jefferson is probably the most important historical figure to me. His "wall seperating church and state" is my most valued ideal, that and free speech. I'm more of a spiritualist then a fundy. LOL! We would both suffer.

They ban hebrew for promoting Judaism .. and instead teach Jewish History .. Did I miss something? Surely to teach a language is less promotional than teaching our history .. isnt our history & culture is the reason most people convert???

I am grateful that the men who founded this nation - in between what is known as the 'Great Awakening" and the "Second Awakening" - managed to give us an 'Enlightenment" and enlightened attitude towards religion. I am adamant about my right to be free from religion AND the right of fundamentalists to practice theirs. IF government were allowed to be involved, one of us would have to suffer.

The Texas Supreme court addressed exactly that point about funding in the last few decades. It has outraged the right. The Texas Constitution requires a decent education for every Texan child. And thus we have had the "Robin Hood" law. You can imagine how incensed the few 'rich' districts are at having to help the poor ones. Charter schools are a mixed bag Lynn. When good they are often very good. Many are hobby horses ridden by ideologues here in Texas. We have had a few that were outright frauds. I have no problem with the basic idea of charter schools, but was pointing out that many 'think tanks' and lobbyists who promoted the idea had in mind destroying the public schools by any means necessary. During the late 1950s and early 1960s I attended public schools in both the north and the south, both rural and urban. The experience was different, largely based upon region. Always easier (as a student) to move south than north.

I agree with with Bernie whose real name I sense is Mo. But anyway, if more Americans had known Arabic in the first place, maybe we wouldn't have been caught with our pants down on 9/11. But here's the problem with both Hebrew and Arabic in Public Schools. If you're learning Hebrew, it's almost impossible to divorce the fact that it is the language of the Bible. If you're learning Arabic, it's almost impossible to find Arabic teachers who aren't going to put a political spin on it. Thus, terms like 'jihad' and 'intifada' will find their way into our vernacular along with some other things we don't even know yet. Those two terms being already embedded now. I'll give an example. I studied Russian during the Soviet Jew thing. The Professor was totally on the defensive, the entire time, for the Russian Government even though no one in the class at that time, including myself, ever discussed any criticism of Russia for fear of getting a bad grade.

I, for one, am so grateful we do not have those sorts of problems with religion.

I wasn't implying you had said they weren't integrated. Just an observation of my own. Public schools in my area receive $7,584 per year per child. The Charter schools receive $5,584 per child. A partial tuition is paid by parents to the Charter schools depending on which schools they are. Some of them get funding through business like Microsoft or IBM. I don't dislike the public schools for their teaching standards, just the way they are funded. Poorer areas with less tax base get less money. This is an inequity that needs to be addressed.

You seem not to be aware that Israel publishes more books every year than many other countries, and a minority of them are related to religion. I would be interested to know whether they are teaching modern or biblical Hebrew. If the latter, then obviously they would be using religous texts. If the latter, then there is no reason whatsoever to use them. Some have compared this school of the NY madrassa, but there is one very significant difference - this school will NOT be teaching large numers of students whose first language is already Arabic (immigrants). And as the article says, there are only 2 hours per day of instruction in Hebrew.

Teach Seinfeld.

Now, it would make more sense if an Israeli school suspended the teaching of Hebrew because it might be advocating Judaism?! Isn't that what the Israeli leftists want? How in the world could any thoughtful person listen to a leftist?(good ole Trotsky-what a "headache").

"By the way, the god of the koran is the same god of the torah, just like the god of the bible (jesus) is the same god of the torah....and all came way back from Zoroastrians...in Persia, . . " - American 3 While the Babylonian expulsion and thus Zoroastranism, deeply influenced the beliefs of the ancient Jews, the origins of the religion go much further back than that.

Somehow or other, you failed to sound off and condemn the Arabic oriented Khalil Gibran public school it New York.... Any reason for the oversight, other than your hatred of anything and everything that Jewish or Israeli...????

Tosefta the public school movement in the US goes back to the early 19th century and has as one goal the integration of all ethnic (spell that immigrant) groups into American society.

Because they are funded with tax money, Charter schools must be integrated, or at least not overtly segregated. The Charter school movement is promoted and legislated largely by the same folks as are pushing for public funding of lilly white "Christian" schools (God forbid a middle eastern guy like Jesus try to enroll in most). Then there is a myth that America's public schools do an inferior job. A study done by the Bush administration shows that for the most part charter schools do an inferior job to public ones, but then so do most of the religious schools except the Lutheran ones. I expect the issue to die as the diehard racists die off.

They range from the principal to some of the content used in the texts, which, according to the article published in today's NY Times, which pointed to items that were religious in nature. www.nytimes.com/2007/08/24/education/24charter.html?ref=us

This is a silly thought. If you are teaching history and culture of a language, you automatically get religion. It is a vital component of culture. Teaching for understanding is different than prosteletizing. It behooves Americans to learn more languages and history. It gives better understanding to sociological phenomenon. Also, studies show that children that speak more than one language have greater language skills in both languages. It is a win, win.

Actually most Charter Schools are very much integrated. They are in Urban settings. Smaller classroom sizes are perhaps the biggest advantage for individualized attention.

We agree, Lynn. But as I said in post #107, the US has to look at its needs first and not allow an uncontrolled number of such schools to exist, because this will divide the US into ethnic groups.

Look at Israel hebrew is the oficial language and how many people care about judaism?

"Culture is an intrinsic part of language instruction." - Giles Martin True, and that would require a very careful approach to instruction in a language such as Hebrew. "how do "Christians" adopt the gentle carpenter Jeshua while abandoning his teachings?" - Giles I have never seen any problem with Christians ignoring the teachings of Christ. They even manage to pretend he was Christian. "How does a Hebrew School abandon the wisdom of the Sages in favour of the relative hacks of today?" - Giles If they want to do it with tax dollars in the US then they had better figure out how. Please note that there is NO problem with teaching religion in America, that is what we have religions to do. I have no problem with teaching Hebrew or Arabic, but I don't want my money spent to promote ANY religion. Curiously my daughter received an offer to attend the Magnet program at Pin Oak Middle School, which specializes in languages. Including . . . yup.

I have to admit that I don't quite comprehend this article or the facts that it purports to report upon. Is it not okay that children develop their spirituality, but it is okay that they study maps of so-called Israel and learn how to be good Fifth Columnist traitors? There is something very wrong with this picture.

I must tell you my first girlfriend, Mindy Markoff" had a father that never forgot a cousin Mitch Markoff that changed his last name to Miller to ease his way in show-biz. Thankfully such behavior is no longer necessary.

"A quote attributed to "Ma" Ferguson, the first female governor of Texas, in 1925. She was arguing against legislation requiring high school students to learn a foreign language before graduating." - Boycott Durn tootn' and folks still say it today about Spanish. Of course one must understand that little over a decade after "Ma" Ferguson said her famous quote, another Governor of Texas fired the President of the University of Texas for being an "intellectual."

Mark of Lewiston, your assessment of the Charter Schools movement was very concise and enlightening for someone not familiar with them. There is another aspect of the Charter School Movement you did not cover. When I was a child even in the South most folks went to Public Schools (a recent innovation in some of the South) and a few, largely Catholic and Lutheran, religious schools also existed. I even attended a Quaker school for a year. When the Supreme Court overturned the ruling allowing segregation and ordered integration of the public schools the effect was galvanizing. Some school districts in the south went so far as to close. Many whites in the south - and in northern cities - fled to "Christian Schools" as because they were 'religious' they were exempt from having to integrate (Churches likewise enjoyed such exemption). This led to a conservative movement to destroy the public school system by any means necessary without ever stating that goal. Ergo the Charter School.

There are no tax payer funded Muslim or Hindu schools in the US, that is a fact, if this school wants state money then it needs to be neutral. The case of the school in NY is different that is an arabic culture and language school and its curriculum is dictated by the city and state, this is a charter school with less oversight but uses government money. By the way, the god of the koran is the same god of the torah, just like the god of the bible (jesus) is the same god of the torah....and all came way back from Zoroastrians...in Persia, which actually borrowed a lot from Hinduism, which uses the Sanskrit language, the oldest in the world.

"From my point of view, it is important to study the religion where your own country has its roots in, . . ." - KUTW The United States Constitution was only ratified under the condition that it be amended to prohibit a state religion. As an Citizen of the US, I ultimately have no say in whether any other nation have a state religion or not. Just before the founding of the USA the various states had VARIOUS state religions. We could not have equitably chosen between them and were wise enough to prohibit any state religion. One reason why religion causes so much less trouble in the US than anywhere, except those nations which are fundamentally without religion in the Western sense such as most of Western Europe and much of Asia. I would not care to disillusion anyone of their religion, but I also do not want them spending tax dollars to delude others into sharing it.

For the same reason that whenever anyone hears about arabic or arab culture they automatically think about Islam and religion.

"How often, in the US news, there are court fights about the seperation of church and state in southern, republican areas because the local residents predisposition for evangelical Christianity." - Akiva Patysh I hear you. I also know that some folks think that they have a God-given right to use tax money to support and promote their religions. They have for the most part learned a very unrealistic and distorted version of American history. At the time of our Revolution most colonies had state religions. Even under the Articles of Confederation most states have a state religion and required tithing, attendance and/or discriminated against those who were not of the state religion. When the United States was founded we (the States) chose to ban such behavior. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; . . ." - Amendment 1, US Constitution

Mark, have you ever heard someone on the right complain about the ACLU defending Ollie North or the KKK?

Today's defacto international language is English, understood throughout the World. Why not learn something useful, like technology, instead of languages? OK, if you want to learn Hebrew, go make Aliya! If you want your kids to learn, do Aliya earlier! If you learn French at school, does this mean you will turn into some kind of Francophile Catholic terrorist?? I am not familiar with the Florida education system, but surely the parents have a choice which school their kids' attend? So, vote with your feet! Bottom line: high standards of education, coupled with liberal democracy, are the absolute KEY to prosperity, regardless of religion or language.

I have been to New Jersey and there are a lot of Arabs (and Jews) living there. The schools you describe are by no means of the Pakistani Mydrassa variety - they are just schools which teach Arabic and the Islamic religion, no doubt, just as Convent schools teach Catholicism and Jewish schools teach the Jewish religion. Don't exaggerate!

Maybe they will teach Protestant Christianity in science, right?

as national holidays if your english italian spanish german etc. catholics/protestants-but talk about moshe during hebrew classes and its a sin?

Perhaps because Jewish people insist that judaism is an ethnicity, not a religion like the rest of the "normal" world...

There is a great need in the US for immersion into other languages. Spanish, Chinese, Arabic, Hebrew, Japanese, and the reasons are quite obvious. Global trade has made this a necessity. My kids are ALL taking Spanish. Being bilingual is an asset. BTW, they all attend Charter schools. I also pay a tuition for them to attend.

I am totally against all charter schools. They are just excuses to get around public schools. In Texas they are used to get around the State mandated tests. Public funded schools should stay out of all religions. Thomas Mann formed public schools to join Americans together;not to segregate us apart.

Private schools can be and often are religious schools. Their funding comes from private religious organizations, ie; the Catholic Diocese funds Catholic schools and in turn charges the parents for their children attending the schools. Those schools are allowed to teach religious subjects. Public schools are funded by the taxpayers, mostly homeowners property taxes. These schools are supported by people of varying religions and run by Local School Districts. Therefore religions of any nature are not taught in them. Although in public schools history of cultures is taught, the religions of various cultures are not.

Values and culture is part of the social studies curriculum that also includes history and geography at the elementary school level and at the middle school level. These subjects are taught almost entirely without any reference to any religion. In American History (3rd year of high school) and Government (last year of high school), the curriculum briefly touches on some of the historical reasons for seperation of church and state. Only in high school are the kids exposed to things like the refomation wars that wracked Europe for centuries. And then only to the extent that that experience affected migration to the US or the colonial period. Many of our colonies (later states) were established for religious reasons or to escape some other colony's religion. This is taught. But the details of why Rhode Island didn't like Massachusetts' religion is not taught. Interested students have to find out on their own. Religion is a minefield most teachers avoid.

Jitzhak Rabinowitz was a Jew, who lived in the 50's America. He was a poor accountant with an expensive passion: golf. His greatest ambition was to become a member of an exclusive golf-club, but the sign on the gate of the club: "No dogs, no Blacks, no Jews", would have been enough to crush his spirit, but no; it was just an obstacle to overcome to our Jitzhak. He found out what was needed to be accepted as a member in the Club and was told: a high income, academic, Xian. SO, Jitzhak graduated with a MD from Oxford, learned "Queen's English", and converted to Xianity and changed his name for John Miller. He had become "acceptable". As the BIG day dawned and he was ready for the interview in the Golf Club, the interviewer asked him as follows: Name: John Miller Education: MD Profession: univ.lecturer Religion: goy.

Charter public schools in the US are hard to establish. They are hardly ever found in small communities. They are largely a city phenomenem. They are established because of perceived failures of the regular public schools or a desire for a particular emphasis. Teachers still have to be state certificated and the students still have to pass the Federally required No-Child-Left-Behind standard tests. School districts and teachers unions are generally hostile to chartered public schools. There are some notable exceptions to this hostility. The schools are a challenge to the regular curriculum and policies of the school district. In many chartered public schools, the teachers are exempted from the normal job security guarantees other teachers enjoy. A large part of the hostility is because the federal and state money that would otherwise go to the regular schools is taken away from those schools to pay for the chartered schools.

"If the King's English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!" A quote attributed to "Ma" Ferguson, the first female governor of Texas, in 1925. She was arguing against legislation requiring high school students to learn a foreign language before graduating.

my note before I read your post, so you know about the aclu also.I believe ACLU members are really the troublemakers in America.I have no idea when it was founded,but who could have listen to madelyn, the atheist, to get rid of prayers and reading Bibles in public schools.look what happened to america-gays marriage teaching came in,immorality came in as well among students[don't believe in purity before marriage.]

To add to your example - look how these people are trying to bring Creationism into schools.

has gone liberal.The true God, prayers,the Bible have been kicked out of public schools since 1963. Americans don't want to offend muslims all over america so practicing islam is welcomed in public schools.US schools stops Hebrew classes because it promotes the God of the Bible.The ACLU even wants to change the name "Corpus Christi" because it mentions the name Christ.They're even offended with crosses.I heard it's illegal to pass out Christian tracts in some places in america.But they're not offended when names like allah,buddha,khrisna are mentioned.

"Anyone with any sense should be able to see that a Hebrew language school is probably going to promote Judaism -- and for that matter, an Arabic language is fairly sure to promote Islam." Whatever you say, Colin, whatever you say. Even in your fantasy world, a numerical comparison between under 14 million Jews and over 1.4 billion Moslems should raise red flags. Believe it or not, Jews do not believe in converting non-Jews to Judaism. That includes you.

The word "goy" means a non-Jew, "goyim" is its plural form and refers to "nations". You are the first one to say that this word would have a degaratory meaning. I have never heard the word "goya" for a non-Jewish woman! A non-Jewish woman is called "shickse", which is Jddisch. I honestly do not know whether it is degaratory? The word "whore" in Hebrew is "tsona", but NEVER-ever have I heard that "goy" or "shickse" would have such a context! The only "Goya" I know is a famous Spanish art-painter, who lived in the 19th century. You really are shooting yourself in the foot with these accusations, because Hebrew and Arabic are related and therefore many Arabic words are understandable to Israelis. IF I stir more your hatred of the Hebrew language, I will make you boil over, so hold on to the lid::: Hebrew letters are the first letters on this hemisphere, from where the present European letters have been developped on further! What say!

How often, in the US news, there are court fights about the seperation of church and state in southern, republican areas because the local residents predisposition for evangelical Christianity. This nation needs to step back and take a good, long hard look at itself. It has failed its own.

The issue here is not that teaching of Hebrew is being conflated with teaching of religion. The problem is that the first two curriculums offered by the school, which recieves public money, asked students to translate phrases like ?Our Holy Torah is dear to us? and ?Man is redeemed from his sins through repentance.? (This was reported by the NY Times) Those are religious statements that have no place in public schools. Most Americans welcome diversity, but we have to be vigilent to maintain the separation of church and state. Our President is a perfect example of why religion must be protected from politics, and vice versa. Israel is another example.

I was not very clear, but teaching foreign languages as electives is one thing, but in the normal classrooms only English should be taught as that is the language of our country. When US schools begin to produce students on par with other nations, then they can look to teach Finnish, Swahili or Pig Latin for all I care, but first things first.

Let us assume that the problem of "religion" in the textbooks will be solved. This is not hard to do, since Israeli kids have such school books. Such a Hebrew public school will be a way for non-orthodox US Jews to get a free Jewish education from the public and one assumes very many Jewish children will want to attend such schools. Would Indian kids want to study there? Probably not, why bother with the Hebrew part, especially if, following the Jewish example, they will establish an Indian Charter school. The same story will hold for every ethnic group in the US. The Greeks will go to their school and the Italians to theirs. Perhaps the Irish, not willing to be left alone with the black kids, will study Gaelic. It will divide the US into ethnic groups, studying generally in isolation from other groups, and all at public expense. Instead of such a system, the US should first decide what it NEEDS. Let's say that the US will need many people with good Chinese culture skills. It will make sense to allow A FEW such schools, distributed all over the country were there is Chinese concentration. I assume some Whites will also get in. Same with Arab schools, and perhaps one or two Hebrew schools, but that's it.

At the University that employs me, every foreign language class teaches the culture(S) associated with its particular language. Thus, the culture(s) that preserved Hebrew as a modern language have the same right to address culture(s) associated with Hebrew (though Beilin speaks Hebrew, so some might take this badly--his culture is only different than theirs). Addendum: If "Christian" schools teach radical (and heretical) ideals, so private Hebrew and Islamic have the same right to promote radical ideals. While falsehood is intrinsic to none of theis traditions (how do "Christians" adopt the gentle carpenter Jeshua while abandoning his teachings? How does a Hebrew School abandon the wisdom of the Sages in favour of the relative hacks of today? and so forth).

I think religious beliefs are an important part of the system of values of any society and have played an important role in many historic events. From my point of view, it is important to study the religion where your own country has its roots in, in the same way you study the history, the literature, etc. of your country. This does not mean you should not learn about other religions too because they can help you understand the world in the same way as any other subject. Teaching in a neutral way is utopic when it comes to certain subjects and I would say neutrality is undesirable. How can you make your students feel the beauty of a sonnet by Shakespeare, for instance, if you are neutral? What is desiderable in those cases is for the teacher not try to impose their tastes or beliefs on the students. The problems you mention could be solved, couldn?t they? At least you know they exist. Those teachers you say are able to learn about other religions, I guess.

You state that Pakistani style Madrassas would not be allowed in USA. I hope that it would not be allowed but the fact is that in Jersey City, Newark and even around Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn NY there are many of them operating. They are not even hiding; you can see their signs all over.

Hello, Lynn. I understand your point. However, I insist that a language is also its culture. And, on the other hand, it sounds as if learning religion was wrong. Somebody (maybe you) said above that in private schools the students are taught religion but not in public schools. So the students of private schools know something that the public schools students don?t. Although, the topic here the US, my question is in general.

It is the law in America that church and state is seperate. If the Hebrew lessons was just that lessons in Hebrew it wouldn't have been discontinued. I am all for education, not at all supportive of indoctrination. As for foreign languages at school, only 300,000 people took a language exam this year in the UK. It is the kids who are voting with their feet. And frankly when most of them go to the States for their holidays they do not see the relavence of languages in a world where everyone speaks English.

My daughter-in-law speaks Latin, Ancient Greek, Italian, English and next is going to learn German. Language has little to do with religion

It is the law in America that church and state is seperate. If the Hebrew lessons was just that lessons in Hebrew it wouldn't have been discontinued. I am all for education, not at all supportive of indoctrination. As for foreign languages at school, only 300,000 people took a language exam this year in the UK. It is the kids who are voting with their feet. And frankly when most of them go to the States for their holidays they do not see the relavence of languages in a world where everyone speaks English.

I went to a jewish school in London. The secular education was state funded but our parents' paid for the jewish religous education(rightly so). However Modern and Biblical Hebrew were STATE funded as they each follow a national UK GCSE syllabus.I think this is best practice as really they can be taught as pure languages with no religous undertones. Also the study of religion can be secularised as well as in the case of religous studies. Whereby it becomes a study of tradition, custom and social history of a specific group, akin to sociology.

Hebrew is a classical language like Greek or Latin.Afterall Cambridge Uni has an entire department dedicated to it. Why shouldn't it be paid for by taxpayers. As you well know in our own country, local authorities can't seem to spend enough on translating posters into polish and lithuanian and providing intepretors to schools. Making a link between judasism and hebrew is like comparing latin and catholocism, and German with fascism. Both these languages are taught at the taxpayers expense. So why shouldn't hebrew take equal place to these languages?

There is a huge firestorm of protest in the US about the opening of a New York City public school to focus on Arabic language and culture. You can find many articles on the "New York City Madrassa." It's a hot topic currently and is the reason why the Hebrew language school in the article above also got into the spotlight.

The ACLU tackles lots of controversial subjects bacause it believes that the Bill of Rights should have meaning, not just for the majority, but for everybody. We don't teach Zoroastrianism or Islam or Roman Catholicism or Greek Orthodoxy or Judaism or Mormonism in public schools. There are always minorities. My community has lots of Mormons, but very few Baptists. Your community is very probably different than mine. Should Baptists be taught Mormonism? Should Mormons be taught Baptist principles? In the public schools?

The ACLU tackles lots of controversial subjects bacause it believes that the Bill of Rights should have meaning, not just for the majority, but for everybody. We don't teach Zoroastrianism or Islam or Roman Catholicism or Greek Orthodoxy or Judaism or Mormonism in public schools. There are always minorities. My community has lots of Mormons, but very few Baptists. Your community is very probably different than mine. Should Baptists be taught Mormonism? Should Mormons be taught Baptist principles? In the public schools?

The ACLU tackles lots of controversial subjects bacause it believes that the Bill of Rights should have meaning, not just for the majority, but for everybody. We don't teach Zoroastrianism or Islam or Roman Catholicism or Greek Orthodoxy or Judaism or Mormonism in public schools. There are always minorities. My community has lots of Mormons, but very few Baptists. Your community is very probably different than mine. Should Baptists be taught Mormonism? Should Mormons be taught Baptist principles? In the public schools?

America believes in FREEDOM of religion. America DOESNT believe in the absence of religion. The US Constitution FORBIDS the government to oppress religious expression. We tolerate the freedom of religion of people whose religions we disagree with.

Latin and Greek have always been taught in the public school. The culture and literature of pagan Rome and Greece also. Latin is the language of the Chuch and Greek the language of the new testament.

The word Mydrassa simply means "school" but like "intifada" has been corrupted by some. I hardly think a Pakistani type Mydrassa is allowed in the US! Schools which teach Arabic language and culture are hardly the same thing. Of course there should be schools for the Jews also, so long as the mainstream non Arab or non Jew isn't taxed for them.

Why not French, Italian, German or any other language for that matter. Why pick on Hebrew. And coming from an educator. Shame shame. Chris your new ageism is showing. Are you sure you are not related to clicky.

Silly comment: "If you want to learn French, do it on your own time." It is to America's advantage for different Americans to become fluent in different languages. In addition to English, we want schools to offer Spanish, French, Native American languages, German, HEBREW, Japanese, Chinese, Portugese, Arabic, Russian, Korean, ... even Ancient Greek, Latin and Norse. And so on. If a community has a demand for any of these languages, by all means, we want the public high schools to offer them. My public highschool offered Spanish, German, French, Japanese, and Latin. For my kids, I'll help organize enough parents to get the school to offer Hebrew.

Even Arabic phrases relating to religion 'Inshallah"- God Willing, or "Elhamdulilullah" - Thanks be to God, are used by Christians Arabs just as much as Moslems. The language is rich and Arabs should be proud of it.

Then let's do away with teaching All foreign languages. No public funding for Hebrew then no public funding for German, French, Spanish, Italian, Russian, etc., etc.Get the point!

First of all, at the time of the Mikra, Jewish-ness was transmitted by the father not the mother, for example Boaz transmitted his identity to King David, Rehabam the son of King Solomon his mother was an arab from Amman, and even Moses had an Egyptian women. Secondly Marx, Mendelssohn are widely accepted as Jews but in reality they were born Christians to converted Jews and thirdly for the fuehrer-imach shemo- Jew was anyone whose grand-father/mother was Jew. So why aren't you taking a break and learn a bit more of Judaism? . Look how you appear at this statement " Within Judaism we have orthodox, "atheist", secular, traditional, progressive, conservative, ultra-orthodox, various different strains, same as any other "religion". " How can be Judaism defined as "religion" if you can be also an "atheist"? And I wonder why you didn't include also homosexuals, women?

A school district should have the right to offer multiple choices of language training based on the needs of the community. Its not language that is the problem its proselytizing.

Eliminate all religious based schools, public or privately funded. Students should be educated without any religious based bias. This allows them to make their own uninfluenced choices. At least Lenin had one thing right.

Well... your "why" is answered by the fact that Hebrew is the language of Israel and Israel is a country of and for people that practice Judaism... If you would not mix religion in your laws, maybe other people would not equate Hebre with Judaism.

American - goyim (plural) merely means "the nations", including the Hebrew nation. Thus the Bible says that Jacob went to Egypt where he became a "goy gadol" ie. a "great nation", ie he multiplied into a nation.. Goy singular is a non-Jew, nothing more. If it is used in a derogatory sense by some - that's their fault and they should have their mouths washed out David

The Hebrew language is associated with Judaism, or so I have heard. But that is not true of the Arabic language. There are hundreds of thousands of Arabic speaking Jews. There are millions of Arabic speaking Christians. Although the majority of Arabic speakers are Muslim, learning Arabic has nothing to do with learning Islam. The same argument can be made equating English to Christianity. Just because you take English classes, doesn't mean you are taking Christian Religion classes.

I would go so far as to suggest that the schools share a common playground, have sports events together, etc. There is no reason to fear people that are learning the Hebrew language or the Arabic language, and the cultures associated with both. As long as US taxpayers are not paying for the schools, and these are not government funded institutions, there can only be gains made from their establishment and function.

is a serious threat to democracy, to social harmony. Just read this ShulhanAruch things..and how it refers to Christians and non-Jews in General. I simply don't want my Jewish neighbor to view me and my kids as animals and dogs.

Hi Margie, Didn't know that. Thanks.

If you want to learn Hebrew then do it in your own time, using your own money. Nobody is saying you can't learn Hebrew, just you cannot use taxpayers money to do it.

Sometimes the fine line between culture and religion is difficult to draw, especially when teaching at the younger ages. A lot depends on the perspective of the teacher and the teacher's knowledge. Most public school teachers don't have a lot of background in comparative religion as a secular subject. There are very few texts on the subject geared to younger ages and each has a perspective. There are very neutral ways to teach about culture.

There are courses in World Religions in schools. But, the textbooks do not just dwell on one religion exclusive of all others. This is part of an offered curriculum. But, when it is a Hebrew only or Arabic only language and culture, the textbooks must not be seen as proselytizing for either religion. Spanish speaking only schools do not have a religious undertone. But, it would be the same if they were teaching mostly Catholicism in those schools texts.

I live in a city which has both Jewish and Muslim schools. There are many Christian, which includes Catholic, schools as well. There are also Private Secular schools. And, there are public schools. I can assure you the US has not become Arabist nor Jewish, we are the most Democratic outspoken group of 300 million with a Constitution that works. Seperation of church and state in our country is necessary. There are too many different religious orders, yes that includes Hindus and Buddhists, for us not to keep religion out of government.

Imagine, a Jewish school promoting the Jewish faith. Whats next? Teaching radical Islam in Muslim schools and mosques in America? Oops, I think thats already happening.

If you think that we are still a nation with a separation of church and state, YOU ARE WRONG! Look what Bush has done to start to overturn laws like Roe V Wade. He is trying to impose his religious belief on the rest of the country. One of the republicans currently running states emphatically that he wants to seat the next supreme court justice, one that WILL cast a deciding vote to overturn Roe V Wade. This current garbage is crazy! It's just another way to make sure the "christian" right gets to force their wishes on your freedoms.

That happens in all the languages with some words referring to other people, that they had a central meaning and connotations, which can be positive or negative.

Sometimes I think we show the only moderate side and objective voice on these boards. :)

Andy, stop already. Do your homework! NO religion should be taught in PUBLIC tax payer schools, period. Teach your children the concepts of your religion in your own home or place of worship.

District 1 - Eleanor Sobel District 2 - Beverly A. Gallagher, Chair District 3 - Maureen S. Dinnen District 4 - Stephanie Arma Kraft, Esq. District 5 - Benjamin J. Williams District 6 - Phyllis C. Hope District 7 - Robert D. Parks, Ed.D. At Large (Districtwide) - Robin Bartleman, Vice Chair At Large (Districtwide) - Jennifer Leonard Gottlieb Email them to tell them how you feel: schoolboard@browardschools.com Email Elanor Sobel - the school is in her district eleanor.sobel@browardschools.com

hi there :) The Lynn contributing here is not the Lynn we know, though she also talks a lot of sense.

I advise you to look up 'derogatory' in any dictionary and tell me which one defines it as 'whore'. My name is without that final 'e' please notice.

The Broward County School Board and its largely Jewish members, should be ashamed of themselves. There is a similar program in Miami that teaches Greek and English, but no one seems to mind this. They are hypocrites who are afraid of appearing "too Jewish". It is ultimately the students and families who believe in bilingual education that suffer.

Jews are free to teach Hebrew in private school as they traditionally do and as the Arabic language is taught.There is no place in taxpayer funded American public schools for the teaching of Hebrew to wholly Jewish students. America is not a Jewish state, we have a separation of church and state, and taxpayers do not pay for religiously affiliated education.

Toda, Joe. your words correctly summed up the issue. replace the textbook with modern Hebrew text and this non-issue will blow over, the charter school will reopen and the beauty of the Hebrew language will be taught. leave the "religious" instruction one's to parents and synagogue

I will say this again. If you want to teach religion in school, then get rid of the ACLU. The ACLU is the one who stops any type of religious activity or teaching from crossing into the public. They are the ones who got rid of Christmas trees in public places. They are also the ones pushing to get rid of all religious talk in school. By the way, ACLU's biggest supporters are American Jews. I guess it blew up in their faces.

Excellent points. The issues in New York and Florida are over religious content of curriculum. Language does not equal religion. In both places, the challenge is how the distinction is made and how to keep religion out while keeping language in.

It is you who is ignorant and dishonest. Goya does mean a non-Jewish female, but goya or goyah is also derogatory. See, Webster's New World, Hebrew Dictionary, Hebrew/English, English/Hebrew. by Hayim Baltsan, P. 114...

What you said reminded me of an article I read some time ago. It said that, even if the teaching of religions is banned in the US schools, when Ramadan is coming they teach the children what it is about, and the festivity of the sheep and others are celebrated at school. The schools say this is for the sake of promoting tolerance. In my opinion, this is fifth column or appeasement.

Since it is Israel that calls itself the Jewish State, this problem is of Jews' own making. If you call yourself a religious state, you must take all that comes with that.

First of all, languages are attached to cultures and a product of them. I cannot believe you can learn a language without learning about the culture. Religion is also a part of culture. What I cannot understand is why that strong opposition to the teaching of religions, at least as cultural phenomena.

"The textbooks and the topics which are taught should conform to American standards and not to those of a foreign country." Where does it say in the article that they don't? (Or is this just a matter of your a priori assumptions?)

If Maimonides and Ibn Khaldun are too "suffused with religion", then you should also include Latin in that list. BTW, Jews do not proselytize. It's against Jewish religious practice.

Don't be silly, so long as you use public (Taxpaying Christians for the most part) you don't have a right to promote a religion. There are NO madrassas in the US taht are using public funds, but we do have madrassas just like we have Yeshivas and Catholic schools, but they are private. If you want public money, then play by the public rules.

You obviously dont know any Hebrew. 'Goya' most certainly does not mean 'whore'. 'Goy' has various meanings, one is non-Jew and the other is 'great nation'. ata lo mevin clooom.

teaching hebrew using archaic bible texts is obviously akin to promoting judaism as well as christian faith. recomending the use of hebrew haaretz website.

Thank very much you for replying. The same goes for others who might still reply.

Gerald, not a single Catholic school in America is government funded. They can't be. Your point seems to entirely miss the constitutional issue: in the United states there is a separation of church and state. Catholic schools can teach whatever they want; Jewish schools can teach whatever they want; Zoroastrian schools can teach whatever they we want... but if these schools endorse religion, then they are constitutionally ineligible to receive government funding. This policy has generally been a positive policy for Jewish Americans.

As long as school boards cracked down on any Christian activity in schools, Jews remained silent. Now that they are being targeted, they they start to holler. What made them think that they would recieve the same preferential treatment that the Islamics have recieved in our schools? We shouldn't expect any sympathy from Christians.

The problem is the textbook. The school is fine. Even the ADL opined the textbook was problematic. Why its so difficult to replace a Learn-Hebrew textbook, I dont know. But thats the problem.

"By the other way if someone convert to another religion he is not Jew anymore, unless for the nazis." So the Chief Rabbi of Paris is a nazi for saying kaddish at the funeral of the late Archbishop? You are wrong in what you say, please don't confuse the issue for an interested person with incorrect information. Judaism does not recognise conversions away from the faith, once a Jew, always a Jew, hence the kaddish recited at the funeral of a Jew turned Catholic Archbishop. You were right to mention converts to Judaism however, but I didn't really feel that that was Guido's question.

"By the other way if someone convert to another religion he is not Jew anymore, unless for the nazis." So the Chief Rabbi of Paris is a nazi for saying kaddish at the funeral of the late Archbishop? You are wrong in what you say, please don't confuse the issue for an interested person with incorrect information. Judaism does not recognise conversions away from the faith, once a Jew, always a Jew, hence the kaddish recited at the funeral of a Jew turned Catholic Archbishop. You were right to mention converts to Judaism however, but I didn't really feel that that was Guido's question.

American public schools are not meant to be an ideological battleground between Muslims and Jews. The textbooks and the topics which are taught should conform to American standards and not to those of a foreign country.

If you have a relative who was a Jew like a great grandparent or grand-parent, you ma consider yourself a Catholic but others may call you a Jew. This is how Hitler counted whether you were Jewish. Of course if you are Jewish and are not observant, then you are still a Jew. You can be agnostic and still a Jew. It is not a race but a religion, but people will lump you into a category whether it is real or not. There is a nasty online website that names all people thought to be Jews even if they are not. I am of Jewish parents and have Jewish children, but I am not Orthodox and quite as observant. I really believe, unlike the Orthodox, that you are Jewish in your heart and soul and not necessarily in your genes. A friend once told me a Good Christian is a Good Jew and a Good Muslim is a Jew.

Sounds about right to me!!

A language school is fine as long as religion is kept out of it. Whether it be in NY or FL. There are plenty of people who are raising questions about the Arab school. At this point in time there are only 40 or so students who have enrolled. Daniel Pipes is one of the leads in questioning the school. So is Brigitte Gabriel. It is the use of taxpayer funds to support these schools that is in question. There are plenty of Jewish, Christian, and Muslim private schools which are supported by PRIVATE funding.

Nik Miller, you and Margie pompously refer to Haaretz as a rag and a paper that lost its quality and is not being honest. What are you two always doing here reading this stuff and why don't you move over to the other paper's talkback? I don't see anybody else with the same complaint and I don't see anybody twisting both your arms to stay. It must the Tel Aviv mentality; I heard about you guys living in another world. Do you also come from South Africa, Nik?

Thomas Jefferson said that "there should be a wall built between church and state." We are a nation of many religions. That is the way it is.

I know Hebrew quite well. But really the way Hebrew relate to non-Jews is really very ugly. For example, goya, which means a non-Jewish female, also has a bad connotation, e.g. a whore. Same thing with Goy, means "non-Jew" it is a negative meaning. Hebrew is a tribal language, it has little universal humanism.

I went to a protestant school where they said give us our daily bread every morning . I just ignored it and never wanted to become a christian are the kids so weak that they are easily swayed . I think that the do gooders in the western world have gone to far just remember what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Our Constitution guarantees a seperation of church and state. Language education is fine and so is studying another culture. But, this is a publicly funded school. They are just making sure they do not cross the line. This is actually nothing new. Every school must meet the guidelines. Even the secular charter schools.

The US have become noticeably more Arabist of late, and even though there are madrassas in America, Hebrew language schools that also teach the history of the language are dwindling into oblivion.

that is happening in NY at the Khalil Gibran School. Smart people!

One can call himself Jew even if his mother isn't, just converting to judaism. By the other way if someone convert to another religion he is not Jew anymore, unless for the nazis. In my opinion even the so called Messianic Jews aren't Jews anymore, because their believes contradict the Tanakh. Finaly one can be atheist and still feel Jew. We are a people and within our flock there are whites, blacks, browns, ... Shabbat shalom

When you'll the answer let me know too.

I couldn't seem to find any reason given exactly why these classes were stopped. There was no reason given that indicated anyone was promoting the religion. Weird.

Thanks you very much for explaining. Judaism seems to be quite unique compared to other religions (this is not meant as a critique, it is just an observation). Regards, Guido

Question: do you think we will see any Imams step up to defend the right of this school in the same way we saw a Rabbi defend the Arabic culture school in NYC? Margie: when was this rag ever a quality newspaper? Guido: Judaism is a religion, passed from Mother to child. If your mother is Jewish you are Jewish, even if you don't know, or she doesn't know, or any number of previous generations didn?t know, simple as that. You cannot stop being Jewish. Even if you convert to another religion or are born with no knowledge, raised and live in another religion as far as Judaism is concerned you are still Jewish and have a Jewish soul and will be welcomed in any Jewish house or place of worship. Within Judaism we have orthodox, atheist, secular, traditional, progressive, conservative, ultra-orthodox, various different strains, same as any other religion. Where we (possibly) differ is that many Jews also think of themselves as a people. This is why it is possible to be completely secular, have no religious bent, a dedicated atheist, but still follow certain Jewish practises and traditions (kosher and Friday night Sabbath meals most usually) and feel a part of the Jewish people, and why families can bring up their children with a Jewish education, Bar/Bat Mitzvah, chicken soup and lochshen while taking them to the baseball on a Saturday afternoon with no feelings of hypocrisy as they are maintaining their culture, not necessarily their religion. Do other people out there think that sounds about right?

To complain about a NY school that plans on teaching Arabic, Arab culture and who's first director though it was fine to wear a t-shirt that said "Intifada NYC" on it. Yup, the US is following Europe's lead, and is beginning to think dhimmi.

Choni Davideovich, you are completely wrong! One can practice Judaism anywhere. (I'm talking true Judaism, not finaticism). The troubles we have here is, in part. due to the finatic Jews that immigrate. Leave the Torah as it is written, and there would be less strife!

I prefer to refer to the citizens of Israel simply as Israelis. I noticed however that they usually refer to themselves as "jews" (except for the arab Israelis of course). My question is: what is the definition of a jew? Is it someone who's religion is judaism? Is it possible to be a jew and be non religious? Is it possible to be a jew and have a different religion from judaism (e.g islam)? This post is not meant to be inflammatory (I don't think it can be read that way). I am just curious. (I myself am an atheist by the way).

Proselytizing is against the foundations of the Jewish religion. I'm sure that the school is not persuing that line as the Lutherans do. Why cannot Hebrew be taught as any other foreign language in the schools. In Catholic schools is Latin not taught?

in an American public high school, and German as well. In both subjects I learned about the culture and literature of the respective countries - Israel and Germany. Religion didn't come into it at all. After school hours, I attended a Jewish Hebrew high school, where Jewish content was taught in the Hebrew language. So what's the problem?

The truth is closer to the fact that "U.S. school stops Hebrew classes for promoting religion" It's not Judaism that American law prevents being taught but any religion at all! Grow up! be honest! You're no longer a quality newspaper.

What's wrong with this? If it is a public school, then religion cannot be taught, whether it is Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. Creation cannot be taught in science classes because it promotes religion. This is all because of the ACLU which American Jews support fervently and passionately. The ACLU has put a stop on all religious activities in school and everywhere else. If you want Judaism taught in school, then quit the ACLU.

for all who say that a jew is defined by belief, to the exclusion of genetic makeup (like jews who convert to christianity), why is anyone surprised? thank the rabbis for this problem and accept all that comes with it without complaining, please.

The only place on earth to promote Judaism is in Eretz Yisrael. This is God's purpose for the Jewish people. Any Jew living in exile must know that true Judaism can only be practised in his own Land. Anywhere else is distortion. This form of "anti-semitism" by U.S. schools is a message and "warning" for Jews to leave the exile.

Anyone with any sense should be able to see that a Hebrew language school is probably going to promote Judaism -- and for that matter, an Arabic language is fairly sure to promote Islam. For one thing, the classical texts in both languages tend to be either religious tracts or so suffused with religion as to amount to the same thing. Similar problems arise with the available teachers. It's as if the material available in English consisted primarily of the King James Bible plus such works as 'Pilgrim's Progress' -- and the bulk of available instructors were fervent evangelicals. Gee -- I wonder what the net effect would be? It's absurd. Permitting instruction in Hebrew or Arabic in America and ensuring the separation of church and state are incompatible. It's theoretically possible -- but highly unlikely to work in practice. Sure people can go to schools that conduct instruction in these languages -- but it should be with their own dime.

Many American Jews send children to Saturday school. AND, Hebrew was offered as a second language at my high school. Second languages are taught at younger ages now. But this situation is different - apparently charter schools are being used to create all-Hebrew or all-Arabic landguage schools. Should the U.S. fund schools in other languages that are clearly tied to ethnicity? I am a bit uncomfortable with this. Miami is an ethnically divided city where Jews, hispanics, American blacks, Carribean blacks and Christian whites all see themselves differently - it is not like one country. Is this good for our future? In fact, I posted a few days ago that if peace is established in a two-state solution, Israel should explore becoming a country with one language (Hebrew) for all citizens, regardless of religion/backgound, to create a common identity.

Why is it that whenever Hebrew or secular Jewish culture are brought up, Americans always associate it with religion? I hope Ben Gamla succeeds in its mission to teach the Hebrew language.

I dont recommend you make fun of religions like that. I have strong feelings against some Islamic teachings and think teaching language in school should be allowed; however, your crude, inappropriate and just awful attempt at humor should remain between you and the lamp post. Please keep the rest of us out of it. Thanks, Steve Yaros

And we thought the kids were on fire with ADD and worse! Look at these super-sensitive "adults" in fear of offending someone. So what if some child (who applied to attend) learns Hebrew & more about Judaism. Is not that the language of Israel. What do they expect--a nation of deaf/dumb zombies? Maybe that's what they want to graduate. When you learn Hebrew, you HAVE TO think of Israel. Maybe some of them will even be grateful that Israel/Judaism and the Book gave us the basis for our government [Isaiah 33:22]. Put the "adults" back in school--quick!!

You'd be doing your davening out of a nice brand new Koran, courtesy of CAIR.

So in New York you would have schools stop teaching russian and in Florida or Texas stop teaching Spanish. This school teaches English subjects all day except for 2 hours a day where it teaches Hebrew. If NY, FL & TX can teach Russian/Spanish, why can't they teach Hebrew??

Aren't you fortunate to live in such a tolerant city as San Francisco, where even racist bigots like yourself are allowed to openly express their disgusting opinions.

Leave it to Bible-thumping Florida to raise such a ridiculous issue. If religion is being taught, then it's a synagogue religious school, not a public charter school. And if religion isn't being taught (it's OK to teach ABOUT religion in the public schools, but not to directly advocate the belief in any particular religion)then this is harassment and a non- issue. Let them invest in Rosetta Stone software if they are so concerned about "neutrality" - and let all the taxpayers cover the cost, not the parents. The fact is that Hebrew language and Jewish identity and history are inexorably intertwined, because Jews are a people just as the French, English, Japanese, etc. are. Deal with it...

I know that Catholic schools are permitted under our Constitution - a disgraceful clause that was forced on the rest of the country back in 1867 and that the politicians lacked the courage to discard when we finally patriated the Constitution - but what clause gives preferential treatment to other Christians? I don't recall any, but have not read it for years ...

I think that it is generally believed that knowledge, not ignorance, is one of the components of a great nation. You have been listening to your President too much.

Doesn't Dade County have Spanish in all schools, French in almost all schools and a few select with German, Japanese, Portuguese and even Hebrew? All are with the exception of Spanish are electives. Spanish is required.

You remind me of that old joke: What do you call someone who speaks 3 languages? Trilingual What do you call a person who speaks 2 languages? Bilingual? And just one language? American. Functioning in a global economy certainly requires language skills. As to Hebrew, I suspect that the problem is that Hebrew texts for school children are written for religious schools, whether day or supplemental. I don't know of a fully secular Hebrew curriculum in the US.

We have many religious schools in Canada, although not as many as in the US, Iraq, and similar theocracies. As long as they are privately funded, their existence is none of my business - provided they don't teach evil things such as one religion or race or sex being superior or inferior to another. So this school - and the recently-opened Islamic school - are OK, if the reports of them are accurate. But only if they are privately funded. If they get even one cent of public money, then they must follow the civilized rule of not teaching any religion. That is all very clear to every decent person. What I do not understand is why this school is suspected of planning to teach religion. So it plans to teach, and at times to teach in, Hebrew, so what? My children study in French, are they learning catholicism?

God forbid-quick, have them teach the qur'an-I always thought, however, that it was quite disgusting to bow down and smell the ass in front of me while praying to God-especially if it was arafish's dirty can)

Living in a country where Protestatnts and Catholics get preferential treatment in our Constitution, its refreshing, even as a Jew, to see the seperation of Church and State taken seriously.

All students in public schools must be taught in English and English only. If Jewish parents want their children to learn Hebrew, let teach them themselves as part of learing the Jewish faith, but this is the United States of America, and publically funded schools here should teach English, US history and US geography to students as that is what they will need to know to be productive and loyal citizens of our great nation.

There should also be Spanish language school all over america! That way the workers don't have to fully acculturate...american culture is horrible.....everyone should do this.

Welcome to my part of the world, dimple chads, Elian Gonzalez, and now this...lol

It's funny how in the American dominant culture, Hebrew = Judaism and Arabic = Islam. Never mind the enormous importance that both languages have played in the development of human language and literature. One would think that school Latin or Greek classes would draw accusations of being used to teach Christianity, but I've never heard that objection. And we all know that English is the language of American Evangelical Christianity... maybe we should object to English classes in our schools too?!? Give me a break. This is a dumb thing for people to get worked up about. But, then again, this is the country which was held captive for weeks by Paris Hilton's little adventure with the criminal justice system. It doesn't take much, it seems. kol tuv, Yair