U.S. official doubts ability of PA to police West Bank

SURE A STATE FOUNDED ON STOLEN LAND ITS INHABITANTS KILLED AND CHASED OUT BY IRGUN, PRIME MINISTERED BY TERRORISTS CAN NOT PRODUCE CITIZENS ANY BETTER.YOU THINK THE WAY YOU THINK BECAUSE OF YOUR TERRORIST HERITAGE. SHALOM

You've got the basic outlines. First agreement, then implementation in steps. Palestinian capabilities must be built in steps and stages. But counterinsurgency won't work if there is no political horizon. Both sides have to agree on which is Isreali and which is Palestinian.

Your simple solution is for secutity only and then is specious. First it presumes an agreement on all the complex political and economic issues surrounding this conflict. Then it assumes that several countries will be willing to put their troops in harm's way gratuitously.

You've hit the nail pretty squarely, but you left out some elements. You also need some agreement and assurance that both sides are committed to an agreed goal. If there is no agreement, nobody knows what they are working towards. Counterinsurgency is a three legged stool. It has security components by also there are diplomatic and economic elements. The Brits experience in Malaysia (I believe) has demonstrated this. Even the US experience in al Anbar province in Iraq shows that this can work, at least partially. Though it won't work completely without the economic and political components.

it does not matter for me if pals kill each other by thousands. problem here that they will try kill us first and second they will intimiday other pals to ask israel for safety. if you could garantee that pals will kill only pals and will not be asking for israeli protection i will agree to withdrow from some cities in WB.

"Its a bit like bringing up children" Dead giveaway there, Stan. You're displaying a pretty gross and insulting colonial attitude towards the Palestinian people. The racist blowhards of the British Empire used to say that sort of thing about the colonies. "We can't give them their independence yet. These darkies are just like children and need our guidance, dontchaknow..."

Rabin gave the Pals 30.000 guns to keep law and order. The U.S.A trained the Pal-policemen-to-be for free in an American military base. BUT as they retured home,they became "The Al Aqsa Martyrs"! Do you know what they are? I tell you what they are NOT: policemen! The Pals are the MOST subsided people in the Planet....but alas! Arafat transferred 200 million Euros, maybe more, of the European donation-money to his personal account in Paris/France! The EU-donations were/are meant for the Pal-people and to build an infrastructure! WHAT about the 100 million Norway gave to Hamas? Connor: tell me, how the Pals have money to arm themselves with the latest weapon technology, but NOT to build an infrastucture? The problem Stephen is NOT our missing "good-will"; it is that the Pals keep fooling and deceiving our "good-will" shamelessly and ALL THE TIME! ....Here's the absurdity: our politicians have LEARNED NOTHING!!!!! I would like to know, to whom they keep talking about"peace"?

The only thing the PA was able to do immediatly upon arrival after Oslo was to establishd two criminal security organzation to provide protection for Israeli Army and armed settlers. The preventive security organizations of Arafat one headed by Mohamed Dahlan and the other by Jibril Rajoub did just that. They terrorised the Palestinian population while turning the security organizations to protection and racketeering criminal organizations. When Israel was done with Arafat it went after all of those organizations that did provide protection for the occupation. The PA was and is and will remain a totally incompetent and inept organization unable to provide security for the occupation as contracted for and unable to provide protection for the citizens from non other than its own thugs.Nablus is only but one example of such failures. Israel is doing enough killings as it, why ask the PA to do more of it? Is this what the PA is all about, another Blackwater protecting the occupation.

Now we agree. There is a lot of detail that goes into building a state and establishing infrastructure. It doesn't happen overnight.

"Also, recently, senior PA officials announced they intend to withdraw their request to allow the Badr Brigade, a Palestinian force in the Jordanian army, to deploy in the West Bank." - haaretz The advantage of the weak is that he is not expected to perform well. The question is whether Abbas is taking advantage of this perception. According to Shin Bet information, the number of terrorists arrested by the PA is much smaller compared to their claims, and many of those arrested are released quickly. This indicates some lack of will on Abbas' part to be Israel's guard against terror. The withdrawl of the request to bring in the Badr Brigade, a Jordanian trained military Palestinian unit, is another indication. I actually don't fault Abbas for attempting to maintain some potential terror capability. In a national liberation struggle, the natives give up their arms only after a peace agreement is signed (as done by the IRA recently). If they disarm before, they lose influence. This has been the basic flaw in the Bush Roadmap from day 1, and not understanding this will cause even more problems in the future.

when was the last suicide attack in Israel ? The IDf stopped them! An illegal worker here or there is no big deal but a bomber or somebody with a weapon is the 'target'. Moral - think before you post or you get egg on your face! But we are very forgiving and will give you a face cloth :-)

Clickfool - there was no aircampaign/bombing of the West Bank other than the usual Guerilla fighting since 1967 Durson - I sense you getting increasingly nervous about the Palestinians unwillingness or unability to get their act together, so you clinge to pure nonsense. "there is no incentive" for the Palestinians to asume responsibility? How about proving you are able to run a state which doesn't pose a danger to others including its own citizens? Linthwaite - "the international community cannot expext a Palesinian state to appear one minute after midnight?" How about 60 years after mudnight and 14 years after Oslo? An international force? Where has that ever worked? The EU deployed inspectors at the Palestinian/Egypt borders are the first to run whenever a shot is fired. Let's face it, the Westbank needs to be united with the Eastbank under a joined Palestinian-Jordanian rule. The problem is the Jordanians are not so keen either to reunite with their brothers. I wonder why!

Egypt has already been in control of the Gaza Strip and Jordan has already been in control of the West Bank. In fact, Israel wrested control from these two countries when it took over these two territories in 1967. Moreover, many of the residents in the Gaza Strip are already Egyptian citizens and most or near most residents in the West Bank are already Jordanian citizens. It is only logical that for the sake of the residents of Gaza and the residents of the West Bank, and for the sake of peace that these two countries come to terms with Israel by way of applying their sovereignty over these two territories.

This needs to be seen as a two part issue.One is the negotiations for a viable two state solution for both parties, the second is implementation.The first part need not be dependant on second guessing the second part.A deal in and of itself is a good and needed thing, at least that mush will be done and israel and abbas can reap the benefits of it.Implementation will be of course dependant on the pals capacity to assert real control over their territory and disarm the gangs.If not then implementation can wait as long as needed.At least abbas will have something to fight the gangs with, and Israel has done its best.The time for a deal is when abbas is in office, if their is no deal, and he steps down or is voted out, we are locked into conflict for another generation.

DIDYAFORGET THE MISSLES FLYING INTO ISRAEL? DUMB SHIT.

Bomb the shit out of them then, fewer problems. The golden rule done one better, " Do onto them FIRST what they would do unto you."

Under a western disguise , Headline as formulated by arabised lefties manipulations may be exploited as a pretext for Abbas-PLO/PA to extort more money and weapons , in preparation for a third arabs occupiers armed insurection , an Abbas-PLO/PA terror strategy as a threat against Annapolis conference should it relieve not arabs fabricated narrative , extortions , blackmail , We already hear arabs usual threats , A repeated arab scenario of arab urban war/terror attrition as we saw thru the arabs intentional preparations and pre-fabricated pretexts of the 2nd intifada . The violent arab enemy occupier refuse to abide by a 'road map based perfomance' and rather manipulate to extort 'core issues' to exploit them as pretext to enter into words of quarrel and contentions in order to blame , to kill , to murder , A third arabs occupiers armed insurrection may not happen the day after Annapolis but sometimes before or about August 2008 , If Abbas-PLO/PA's ability to police west bank is in doubt so is in doubt PM Olmert infamous brainwash slogan "bullets can't stop peace" , for peace can neither stop arabs bullets , arabs urban war/terror attrition is not deterred by arabs claim of a nuclear Israel , Talkin' may be a way to prevent muder , but when talkin is exploited by arabs as pretext to enter into words of quarrel and contentions in order to blame , kill and murder then not only it shows arabs evil nature but Israel policies should certainly counter the arabs fabricated narrative , the arabs arrogant desire of lust for blood exploited as pretext thru core issues . Barak statements , Haaretz quote " Barak also told ... Israel has lifted 24 dirt roadblocks..." and " Most of the roadblocks lifted are in the area of Bethlehem and Hebron, ... Some others are in the areas of Ramallah and Qalqilyah. " , In other words means free movement to Abbas-PLO/PA terrorists , potrayed by arabised lefties brainwash as " Israel goodwill gestures" wich is a flagrant Israeli violation of counter terrorism policies leading to yesterday west bank shooting as haaretz reported , Last update - 21:34 , 24/10/2007 , IDF soldier hurt in drive-by shooting in West Bank By Amos Harel and Jonathan Lis, Haaretz Correspondents , Arabised lefties equal thief assembly ,

Do you think the rockets and violence may have something to do with the IDF being 'underfoot"? DUH. Ignorant witch.

I remember it well, the day the PA forces came into town, with all their nice shiny new AK47s, Land Rovers with sirens & flashing lights, uniforms, kit bags; indeed, all the paraphernalia of something a little more than a regular police force. Soon, of course, the shooting started, with many casualties. As I stated in another post, I tend to agree with Chris Linthwaite on this one, although I remain skeptical on how an international force would be accepted & implemented. The PA security forces in their present forms, are badly trained, lack discipline & as to their personal allegiances.... So its probably just as well they lack the wherewithal & equipment just now. Its a bit like bringing up children (although badly behaved at that).

I can't believe what I'm saying, but this time I agree with him! HOWEVER, there are caveats: 1) Would PA & Israel agree to this? 2) Who will provide the personnel? 3) Who will agree to fund this? 4) Will the force have real teeth? i.e. will it have the power to rein in the extremists? Nice idea, but sadly, probably dead in the water. As a tax payer, I must say I am sick of paying for other people's problems. But, if peace could be 100% guaranteed, then who knows...

Just don't express surprise that the PA are now unable to police the territories when Israel made damn well sure they had no muscle of any description.

ability, as well as the will, of the Palestinian Arab leadership to govern itself. And if this leadership can not take care of security matters as well as civil matters, either in the Gaza Strip or in the West Bank, why should Israel and Israelis take risks that are likely to be mortal ones? One way out of course is to begin to think in terms of Jordan taking control and sovereignty in the West Bank and Egypt in the Gaza Strip. Both countries are capable of governing, and both countries already have peace agreements with Israel in place. And since the separation between these two territories is permanent, this appears the only reasonable solution. The question is, will the Arab states be willing to back up Jordan and Egypt and assist them, together with Israel and other countries, in implementing this approach. I hope they do!

and can't even police its own illegal Israeli immigrants in the West Bank...

... "Israel bombed the crap" out of PA infrastructure? What would your reaction be to all out assault by a paramilitary "police" force, using AK47s, RPGs & using their police stations as bunkers/sniping positions? Put on ear defenders & blindfolds & pretend its not happening? Whatever the reasons for the 2nd intifada, the fact remains that pitched battles were fought, & as a consequence, infrastructure was damaged. Would you expect the Israeli, or for that matter British tax payer to pay for all this twice over? Pals have an extraordinary habit of blaming others for everything.

neither the one or two State solution as presently envisaged is going to work in the foreseeable future. Nothing that Israel might agree with Mazen would be acceptable to either Hamas or the various splinter groups. I don't know if http://www.israelinitiative.com/PersonalMessage.aspx?lng=Eng would work but what has been tried up to now, won't! And new things need to be looked at!

PA has no peaceful future, not for Palestine and not for Israel. It lives its last days before being subverted by Hamas. The dreams of Bush, Olmert and Abbas will suddenly end with a nightmare.

An international force is put in place to assist Palestinians in the creation of a state and it's apparatus. The International community cannot expect a Palestinian state to just appear at one minute after midnight.

Dave, It is a much more complicated subject than you post reveals. A large part of the reason that the PA cannot police it's own territory is that we (Israel and the US) won't let them have the materials (weapons and money) and the control (area and mobility) to do the job. Sure we could let them have those things but we really don't trust them with money, weapons and mobility. They might well use them against our interests as they have in the past. It is a catch 22. They can't police unless we help them and we are afraid to give them that help. Perhaps a gradual approach will work. Peace. Steve

The cause is that Israel crippled the PA. The effect is that the PA cannot police the WB.

What happens in the West Bank if Israel unilaterally withdraws from that territority is very much Israel's business! Why? Because of the strong liklihood that the West Bank will become another Hamasistan like Gaza did. Then Israel will have to deal with Kassams being fired at the country from the West Bank. Now, Mohammad, surely you must know this is true! Who do you think you are fooling? You are surely not fooling God!

removed. And the ones he is talking about didn't even exist, like the one between Hebron and Bethlehem, near Gush ITzion block. The man is a liar, a liar, a liar.

this is such a one sided view of this situation. How effective can the police be given that they have no jurisdiction outside of the city limits. For Example, if someone steals a car all they have to do is drive outside the city and they can not be pursued. How would anyone be able to police under such a situation? My prediction is that there will be a series of articles leading up to November that underminds the PA's ability to govern and shows Israel as making a huge amount of concession.

"The last Israeli leader who tried to make an agreement lost his job." you write. Well, Arafat did not allow any agreement, did not come with counterproposals but instead iniated an Intifada. That's why he lost his job, but you are blaming the Israeli voters. Barak also unilaterally left Southern Lebanon. leading directly to Hezzbollah taking over and the 2006 Summer war. Must be Israel's fault again. Your Symmetry arguments are as futile as blaming equally Hitler and Churchill for WWII (which Christina Amanpur would do probably if allowed).

First Israel cripples the PA by ruining their economy, then Israel blames the PA for being unable to control the WB. Israel presents the consequences of her own acts as a fault of the Palstinians. Perfidious.

About two weeks ago, Haaretz ran a story about a request from the PM Offic on the roadblocks. It seems that, as I remember the story, the IDF sat for more than a year on the PMO request to bring down some of the roadblocks. At the time, the Defense Ministry had estimated that there were over 500 roadblocks and that more than half had no security purpose at all, but had been put in place just to make life hell for you. I found it hard to believe an IDF spokesperson actually admitted this. But then they have their own policies, independent of the Islaeli PM. All this time Condie has been talking with the PM and the Foreign Ministry and she should have had parallel talks with the Defense Ministry and probably the IDF and Housing Ministry, too. And the Israeli government says they don't know who to negotiate with on your side.

having zero personal responsibility about anything, the palestinians are in no way ready for peace. this is a waste of time.

As long as the IDF continue to make raids into the Palestinian areas of the west bank, there is no incentive for the PA to assume any security responsibilities.

"the PA, which recently informed Israel that it lacks the necessary infrastructure"

"the PA, which recently informed Israel that it lacks the necessary infrastructure"

Thoroughly agree that the idea of the Israeli political system to have Fatah police the West Bank is ridiculous. However, was it not the idea of Condi Rice to begin with, and possibly bright Olmert thought it a good idea....?What a crowd of brilliant lunatics.

The result of Rabin, Peres, and Beilin's criminal negligence has been death and destruction. It's time for REAL peace. It's time to return to the status quo ante; to expel the terrorists back to Tunis and Beirut, take back OUR land, reimpose our rule, and deal with terrorists as they should be dealt with.

Why negotiate when they are not yet capable? Because they will never have the capability until there are some negotiations. If their forces are in Ramallah, but needed in Nablus, they cannot get there in under a day usually and then with only maybe the help of 20 or 30 permits. Nobody said an agreement would be implemented overnight. It would take years for Israel to implement its side of any agreement. Nobody said that you cannot make an agreement that can be implemented based on performance. That would be to say that Israi troops would not withdraw until the PA forces are capable and even demonstrated competent. But you cannot make an agreement to only discuss an agreement after the PA has done all that is expected of it. That was Olso which lead nowhere, except to intifadas. Patience is good, but neither side in this conflict has a monopoly on virtue. The last Israeli leader who tried to make an agreement lost his job. The one before that was assassinated.

That's news. I notice there is no list of them and I don't know of any in the Bethlehem area which have been opened. And that's despite the town being completely sealed in by the infamous Wall. Any excuse for Wall AND Iraeli roadblocks inside our territory?

What it was knowne is now the admission of PA. They had their chance in 1992 with the help of Israel to build a real police force. But this not what they wanted. They wanted like a small child their toy: JERUSALEM What else the old and the new Jerusalem, maybe a piece of TEl-AVI also. It is a fact the Palestinians they are not realistic. Thir leaders took them where they are know. God help them.

General Dayton should not talk.the u.s can't even police it's own cities.killings ever day here.how can pal's police forse do any thing whan israel keeps killing them.iraq was safe untill bush went in.so israel just needs to get out of the west bank.what pal's do to each other is there problem.

what is all the talk of negotiating with the PA? They say that they cannot control their own territory. We saw them rapidly loose Gaza. Any agreement on their side will not be met, they can't control their territory, how can the agree to prevent rocket attacks on kfar saba if they don't control kalkilya, tul karem, etc.

If the PA is unable to police cities in the West Bank, and the US Secretary of State believes that a 2 state solution may be in jeopardy,, that could only mean one thing: Hamas is trying to take over the West Bank. Don't be surprised if I'm right.

Why on earth would you negotiate with a party that fully admits it cannot keep up its end of the deal? Part of any deal with the PA would be that it can secure its own territory, something that all functioning governments do. If the PA cannot do this what is even the point of talking? Would any rational person enter a into a contract when the other side says it cannot do its part of the contract? The idiocy of the Israeli political system never ceases to amaze me.

The PA is living proof that the pals are incapable of managing an independent state of their own. Abbas will soon witness the collapse of his regime. Hamas will then take over. This only shows that the pals aren't really interested in having their own state, but only capable of wreaking havoc at their own expense. A people has the leadership it deserves. Clearly, the pals only deserve to be ruled by autocrats, whose human rights policies are all too clear. The pals haven't proven yet that they are capable of building a society. Right now, they're only capable of destruction, especially self-destruction.