Turkey seeks right to build monument in J'lem's Old City

Liar. It's my grandfather's word against yours.Some of his good friends were Armenians. His most trusted jeweler was Armenian.That person kept in touch with my mom long after my grandfather was dead.He always spoke so highly of him. All those ugly things you accuse my ancestors with are only lies pumped into your heads to act as a glue to keep you people stick together to form a nation. A nation built over hatred towards another.You will drown in your own hatred someday. God knows who is right and who is wrong.May you face the real truth and be ashamed of thyself.

most enthusiastic apologizers for Islam, since they need to defend their irrational conversion.

Of the boats you mentioned, I believe you transposed some letters "Patria", should be the spelling--However, that's the least of the matter--When Jews were forced to flee Spain & Portugal during the Inquistion, Turkey welcomed them with open arms--As a show of gratitude, Israel should allow Turkey to build a memorial, WITHOUT A FLAG BEING DISPLAYED--In my IDF days, I served with some Turkish Jews, who felt quite comfortable travelling back and forth to Turkey whenever they had the opportunity--The tunes of some of the songs they sang still ring in my ears, thought I don't have a foggiest idea what the words meant--When we conversed, it was in Ivrit--

The fear Turks lived under was as real as the Germans in next door Greece. if Germany invaded Turkey, what portion of the cost would have been born by Turks? Who would have saved Istanbul? You? in 1941 there was just Germany. Without the US, it still would have been. See David Israel's #242 -- there is much more to the story. Also note, a couple of years later, Turkey also declared war on Germany! The two declarations were certainly insincere, aimed to keep Turkey out of harms way; and probably did not hurt. Those days, millions of Turks, including my grandfathered, were conscripted for 5 LONG YEARS to serve in Gallipoli and Thrace --poor-man's way of getting ready for a German invasion that had already befell much of Europe. So, if a piece of paper helped avoid carnage for millions of Turks (Jews among them), then you should be satisfied. German invasion of Turkey certainly would've had far greater negative consequences for Jews.

The case of Salaheddin Ulkumen and others are well known, and surely these are Turkish righteous gentiles, just like the Albanian Moslem righteous gentiles who were recently honored at Yad Vashem. However, concerning general policy, Turkey had a treaty of friendship with Germany, and Jewish refugees were banned as a general rule, and Ataturk had also enforced a ban in the 1930's, except in specific cases of individual Jews of special merit whom he belived would be a special asset to Turkey, i.e. the scientists you mentioned. The current Turkish claims about broad assistance to Jews are designed to coax Jews into helping the Turks with their Armenian problem on Capitol Hill (as if the canard that Jews really pull the strings is true). At the same time, the Turkish government accuses Israel of State Terrorism (Erdogan, Gul) and even genocide (Ecevit), while warning that relations with Israel will be affected if the USA reognizes the Armenian genocide. What Chutzpah!

My parents used to talk about the PARITA which had stopped having trouble in my hometown of Izmir (I was not born yet). All the Jewish families of Izmir were donating food for them while the Turkish government would not allow them to shore. Parita had better luck then Struma and made it to Tel Aviv There was also a coal ship called Sakarya owned by a Turk Arslan Sadikoglu. That ship carried 1400 Jews to Haifa. While Turkey was trying to stay out of that war without damage they sometimes did appease the Germans however in some other incidents many righteous Turks such as Selahattin Ulkumen and Arslan Sadikoglu played a role in saving Jews. Ataturk gave asylum to many Jewish German professors Rudolf Nissen, Ernest Hirsch, Gerhard Kessler, Marcel Fouche, Philippe Schwartz are just a few of them.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/ww2/turkgermany.html 1941. What a lovely auspicious time to be making a treaty of friendship with Germany.

You are completely wrong about the movie but the main point is how much the Turkish crowds enjoyed it and many of them were left with the impression that Americans and Jews forcefully harvest Muslim organs for sale/trade which is totally bogus, it has never happened in Iraq or anywhere else. About 6 months ago an Israeli Professor who went to Turkey to perform a transplant on a private patient in a government sanctioned hospital was arrested in Turkey with others on exactly this charge. I have no doubt that the movie had a lot to do with this. Also with a last name like Karajan you are of Armenian extraction, and the name Osman tells me that you converted to Islam. It is a pity and sad to see how you absorbed yourself into the Muslim mindset and bought into at least some of the Jihadi propaganda.

"During WW II, turkish diplomats saved more than 50.000 jews by issuing them turkish passports, and threatening Germany by war in case any harm was done to them" That is a good joke, Turkey threatening Nazi Germany with war. In fact, Turkey passed anti-Jewish legislations under Nazi pressure, including the special Jewish tax. Jews that could not pay this tax were herded into forced labor camps. Fact! Also Jewish refugee boats were forbidden from docking in Turkish harbors, on direct Turkish government orders. Fact! Witness what happened to the Struma. In 1917, Turkish troops destroyed Tel Aviv and expelled its inhabitants, many dying from hunger and disease as a result. Fact! What's next? Are you going to claim that Turkey also saved 1000's of Armenians?

1. As far as I know and I am not saying I am correct, Kamil Pasha was not Jewish, he was from Cyprus the son of Kaptan Salih Aga. Some say that he was born Jewish and converted to Islam. While my father was alive had mentioned that his father knew him from his days in Aydin. 2. I respect Bernard Lewis and Stanford Shaw. I have not seen such big numbers of Jews rescued by Turks in what I have read from them. 3. To have accurate numbers are important for historic records however from a humanitarian point of view even if it was 1 person saved it is already a great thing and I have at least one relative saved by a Turkish officer. 4. Just like Israelis have to learn to cop with the bad memories of an Arab family mistakenly killed in Gaza etc, every nation including Turks have some issues that they have to learn how to deal with. However what happened in the past should not be used to generate hatred as some of the Jewish posters have been doing here. When my grandparents were hit by the Varlik Vergisi they did not leave Turkey, they restarted again and recovered with the help of their Moslem friends. Every nation and every race are made mostly of very decent people. The bad ones are the exception.

Well, he's no Borat but, give 'em a chance. Comedy must be a newer import to Gaza.

And, laughter sure beats crying. I doubt you find him funny but, I prefer his humor to his kins other 'fireworks'.

Aren't you going to invite your 'proposed new wife' to Gaza just 'cuz it's a blast?

True After the movie was released, the first images of Abu Graihb came up. It turned out after all, that the americans did torture iraqis, and was part of an approved program. So that claim of the movie wasnt that far fetched! As for the Jewish Doctor, well, thats just plain stupidity. But many series in the West also includes an evil muslim - that doesnt make them "anti-muslim" in general. I'm sure there are TV-shows in Israel with one or two "evil muslims", which does not mean that those TV-shows are "anti-muslim" or "anti-arabic" in a general sense. As for PKK, well 25 raids in Northern Iraq didnt help - thats true. But it is as if you want to display the turkishe armed forces as incompetent... But the IDF's 500+ raids in Gaza, The West Bank and Lebanon didnt exactly work either! That doesnt make IDF incompetent. It's just very hard to combat an enemy who doesnt play by the rules, and mingle with civilians all the time. Osman

David. Here is a link, from an article in 1912 from New York Times. The Title is "TURKEYS JEWISH GRAND VIZIER". http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9C03E6DF1E3AE633A25752C0A9679D946396D6CF&oref=slogin As for 30%, it's a proxy number. Due to the crusades, Istanbuls population was way below "normal", so Fatih Sultan Mehmet repopulated Istanbul with (amongst others) the Sephardim. The number is from Bernard Lewis (I'll try to get the source for you). As for the 50.000 jews saved by turks, you are right. It was perhaps more like 100.000 jews! Quote "The Turks also protected its Jewish citizes and attempted to resuce Turkish Jewsin the occupied countries. They succeed in saving 3,000 of the 10,000 Tukish Jews in France and several hundred in Greece. As many as 100,000 Jews may have been saved by the Turks. [Shaw]" Source :http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/hol/holc-tur.html Osman Karjan

"sometimes i wonder why i am bothering to help your country defend such ingrates" and how could you possibly be helping defend MY country, efox? enlighten me please... "ingrate"? how pompous can you possibly be? when indeed; it's the defense of YOUR country that has made enemies for mine that it would not have otherwise. its BLIND support and military aid to YOUR country has forever stained its hands with the blood, and its soul with the tears, of innocents. and it's YOUR mentality of hate, which is shared by so many in israel, its government, and the idf, which leads me to question MY country's support and defense of YOUR country. and overweight? tell that to my wife who complains otherwise!

Here goes, my dear Turks. I have visited the beautiful country, I really like the people, one on one, the food, the mosques, the art, I could even understand the takeover of Haghia Sophia, but guys, when it comes to women, you flunk royally. You used to kidnap beautiful Greek and Slavic women for your harems, even though the Ukrainian Nastia Lisovka, aka Roxelana, became a powerful Sultana, and other women controlled the Sultans. Still, women were total slaves, and the situation does not seem any better today. There is a regression to covering-up and keeping women out of politics. So forgive me if I cannot sympathize with the Turkish desire to honor any form of repression.

until she either runs away with the tail between her legs or commits suicide like her beloved Arabs do. Let's agree on a coordinated effort to achieve this.

This movie had a great success in Turkey last year. It depicts corrupt American troops and a Jewish Doctor harvesting Muslim prisoners organs in northern Iraq for sale. Of course the the brave Turkish commandos rescue the remaining prisoner and kill all the Americans and the Jewish Doctor. The reality is that Turkish military has never been able to mount a successful campaign in their 25 times of crossing the border into Iraq going after the PKK, but fantasy is always more exciting. Now should Israel still allow for a Turkish monument in Jerusalem?

Enjoy your "Turkish Reflections". Let me know if you are really serious about researching the taboos in Turkish society and produce a study on it. It sounds like it may make good reading!

No argument re Varlik Vergisi (VG); my statements to this point were purely about the Ottomans as the central theme to the news piece. VG was Illconceived, illexecuted, etc. and penalized law-abiding Jewish Turks twice: 1st, they their wealth and even so ended up doing hard labor; 2nd, other wealthy families got away on both counts with the amnesty that eventually followed (insult to injury, you might say). Turks need to remember that Westernization has its modernizing and dehumanizing effects, including European-style anti-semitism (esp. early-20th century style!); and the only way to fight is to learn history to its fullest. Propoganda against Jews by the Germans in Turkey, as far as I know, form the beginnings of modern anti-semitism and, as you point out, has had serious consequences. I give credit to Turks, still, for recognizing Israel within a year (and being friendly since), helping Jews escape Nazis, etc. when it wasn't necessarily safe or advantageous to do so.

I was in Israel in 71 and the images of palestinians fleeing Jordan to Israel were on every TV. They knew they would be better treated there and most importantly not killed.

Dear Ben. I do not need convincing. About the arab world Irak is just the latest and the list would be too long (though, you are sometimes able to post impressively long messages). Even there, the shia funded and directed by Iran are slaughtering palestinians whom Ahmedinejad claim he will fight for. What about Lebanon from 1976. I lived in Algeria from 1982 to 1984 (sent as a teacher for my french military service). Since 1992 over 200,000 were murdered. Sometimes entire villages by islamists and stories of little girls killed by banging their heads on walls abonded. I commonly say to the ones that always blame Israel: Look what they are doing to themselves and what do you expect they would do to the jews?

I have a better name for her, "Urine Ann", she's so full of it--

Unlike you, I assume she was a dear soul--Would you be good enough to let us know why you're occupying stolen Aboriginie land and have failed in your committment to become a human shield..??..The Palestinian's could have lived in peace, instead after the Partition Plan was declared, they refused their share and attacked Israel instead--I'm certain you grandmother didn't teach you to lie the way you do--

It was a one time disaster, unlike the Arabs who keep shooting at one another on a perpetual basis, Iraq as an example--Banging away at each other for the past 1400 years--It brings to mind King Hussein, who find it necessary to kill more than 10,000 of the Palestinian ingrates that he gave shelter, and as a sign of appreciation, they turned on him and tried to overthrow his regime--

and you fell for it. Now you can understand better what are the dangers facing Israel when the same principle is applied to other countries in the Middle East.

Under Ataturk, the history of the Ottomans was sanitized to downplay the inter-ethnic conflicts. The reason was simple: It is easier to forgive if you forget (at least the gory details). While conflicts continued in the Balkans and Caucasus (e.g. Armenia attacked Georgia) Turkey remained in peace. Ataturk was even nominated for the Nobel Peace prize by the Greeks!! 80 years later, Turks are criticized for not ?facing up to their history?, but what if they did? Would a Turkey that remembers the millions lost to the Russian-Armenian alliance feel any more inclined to ?normalize? relationships with Armenia? This is why the ?taboo? is perversely wise. It actually does more to protect the Armenians than the Turks! A hostile Turkey is a bigger threat to Armenia than the other way around. While the US ?debated? (?) the Armenian Genocide Bill, illegal Armenians (the Mexicans of Turkey) were worried they may be deported to impoverished Armenia. And, Armenia is occupying Azerbaijan. Ironic!

You sound like an academic: You would understand that presumption of guilt without access to a fair venue for debate or challenge is poison to a people that value their honor and dignity. I encourage everyone to study the Turks, even if they have already concluded that Turks have a "taboo". You can begin here: http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/printedition/tuesday/chi-oped1016endoct16,0,2073252.story Turks are absolutely guilty of being hysterical, but with good reason. Some parliament decides to play Homer (and embellishes at least as much) on a topic that either belongs in the UN (tribunal) or in an academic venue (international commission). So, in the Greek style, you get more mythology than reality. Consider this: Even the hated Nazis got their day in court. The Turks were denied this purposefully by the Allies who invested too much in the ?starving Armenian? theme to justify the WW1 war effort. So, the Turks are doing what normal people would do.

No nation is totally clean in their history and I agree with you about how a country behaves while its rise or during its demise. However Varlik vergisi and the other incidents occured during the new Turkish republic. The fact is that even during the worst times there has been many rightous Tirks who tied to protect their none Moslem neighbors. The Turkish hatred in these forums are usually baseless nad always senseless.

A few prominent Jewish people live in Chicago who were saved by the Japanese during WWII. Interesting stories. No time to tell them in such short space. Some Jews saved by the Turks. Turks, Japanese, Mongolians are related. Turkey did recognize the state of Israel. So did Iran; look what happened to Iran. I hope it does not happen to Turkey.

And what is your version of what happened? My grandfather was a white Russian who escaped to Turkey after the Bolsheviks won. In that respect Turkey served as a safe haven. My Armenian uncle lived in Turkey at the time of the massacres. The Russian Armenians were white Russians and Turkey's enemy. When White turned to Red, we escaped to Turkey. The Armenians also suffered a lot under the Bolsheviks. Come back and tell us more if there is no time left on this thread. I would like to hear what a Russian Armenian has to say.

May be we can find common ground. I am not sure if the 30% figure is very exagerated. Constantinople was a shadow of its former self when conquered in 1453; the 4th Crusade reduced its wealth and population from 200k to 50k (roughly). Fatih the Conqueror had to result to tough tactics just to get minorities and Turks to move and repopulate the city and still was having a very hard time. So, when the influx of Sephardim arrived, Bayezit was only too happy to direct as many as he could to Istanbul, which was still parsely populated in comparison to its heydays. So, while the absolute number may not be very high, it may be still be very high (even 30%) as a ratio. Also, I thought the Sephardim were more than 200k, but I have to check my "notes".

hi David; so, we meet again. I did not mean to say that Ottoman's got it right under all circumstance and always. I was responding to the usual hate-filled entries in the comments before mine. The death of a state or empire is not a pretty thing. If a state is falling apart and canno not administer its own lands effectively, it would not necessarily be due to systematic malice, but rather systematic inability (corruption, lack of resources, opportunistic competitors's attacks, etc.). The boundless charges levied against Turks is usually and happily ignorant of this reality. The real issue is how you would judge character: By looking at what a state does when it is weak and almost dead (as the Sick Man of Europe my do) or what it does when it is strong and rising (like Nazis in 30s and early 40s might do). The comparison is as stark as one between the Ottomans and Spain during the 13-16 centuries. Add to this the state of affairs for the last century in ME. Ottomans still look good!

The Turks who are the decendents of Gengiskhan are the real butcher that belong in Mongolia. Go Back Home!

Jews are no whores to accept the the Turkish demand to build a monument for muslims after all. The Ottomans were the army of Islam. They were attacking Europe in the name of Islam. It is another trick from Muslims to get another chunk of Jerusalem. Even that Israel is an ally of Turkey - There should be limitations! Whoever allows it is a traitor!

Tosefta, Almost looks like you got a good plan. But, you gave eastern Turkey to Armenians. How about real Armenian butchers, murderers, The Kurds.Where are you going to place Kurds, in Greece? If You are really smart, you place Kurds and Armenians in same place that both claim theirs and then when they kill each others again Greeks will get back all Anatolia. and than you can conquor all the lands till you reach India again. Looks like a good plan right?

Let's all start addressing her like this until she will disappear and find another nation to annoy with her blatant hatred and lies.

Thanks for the link. I will look it up. This surely constitute a shameful page of our history. If I can understand the decision to sink the Altalena, shooting on the survivors is unforgivable.

Mehmet K still believes that the Ottomans can order around all the former territories that were brutally oppressed by them. The revived Empire goes by the name of Turkey today and it needs to give independence to more peoples such Kurds, Hatay/Iskandur, East Anatolia to Armenia, Thracia and West Asia Minor back to Greece and get out of Cyprus. Instead of this it wants monuments in former colonies. There will be an independent Kurdistan one day carved out of Turkey and Turks will be very sorry to not agree to it peacefully, many Turks will have to die for the stupidity of their stubborness.

Strangely enough my first response to you was censored by Haaretz. I was saying that you were probably right. By BUM did you mean Maureen Ann?

Unite all you haters of Ottomans And Turks. You got what you deserved in the past. You will get what you deserve in future. We are the brave ones We are the conquerers You are the losers So keep on spreading hate and in your hate you will drown

Surely you jest--The Koran preaches hatred against Jews and Christians and all non-believers--Here's is a sample--"KORAN commands to kill infidels: O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54 Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98 Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191 Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39 ..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43 If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8 Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76 But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89 Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14 Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39 It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67 Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3 When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5 Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28 Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute. Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41 O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73 Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111 Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation: Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

I have spoken to a few of the Altalena survivors--None ever mentioned they were swimming with their weapons, they were swimming for their lives--Ben Gurion broke a promise he had made that 20% of the arms would be sent to the Irgun & Lehi in Yerushlayim--I'm enclosing a link, as far as I can determine, it's pretty accurate--Jews shouldn't have acted like Arabs, shooting at each other--There's been enough of that in Iraq, for the past 1400 years--Massive amounts of guns & ammo were destroyed in the fire, a dirty shame--They could have been put to much better use against the common Arab enemy--http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Altalena.html

Actually up to 1967 most of Israel's weapons were coming from France, not the US.

A) Yes Ottoman sultan Beyazit weelcomed the Jews of Spain (My ancestors) to settle in its land but Istanbul?s population was never even close to have 30% Jews. B) Many Jews did have important positions in the Ottoman palace but not grand Vizier. Sokullu Mehmet Pasha was the most famous but he was a Christian recruit (Devshirme). Jews were mostly doctors accountants or diplomats in the palace. There was also a famous Jewish police chief in Istanbul Samuel Izisel. C) During WW II Turkish diplomats did save many Jews but 50 thousand is way over the real numbers. My father?s cousin who had been picked up in Rhodes was saved by a Turkish officer when the trains had to pass through a 2 KM stretch of railroad in Turkey. Selahattin Ulkumen saved a number of Jews including the Turiel sisters whom I knew here in New York. D) Today there are less then 20 thousand Jews living in Turkey mainly in Istanbul and some still in my hometown of Izmir. There is already a park in Israel named after Ataturk. I think for a small country like Israel this is enough to honor a friendly state. I don?t think there is a need to raise the Turkish flag in Jerusalem.

Knock down the golden pimple and build a beautiful temple already...a memorial for Turks...how stupid!!!

How about an Israeli monument in Turkey?

thank-you very much for the compliment. *blush* Then if Attila thinks because of my post I should not spend my holiday in Turkey I will come to Australia in my next vacation. :o)

Received email: lawsuit against keepers of the Waqf for destroying Jewish artifacts and a part of a wall of the second temple.After the six-day war when Israel gained control of Jerusalem and the Wailing Wall, Waqf was allowed to keep control of the muslim holy site. 1. Great Armenia, once the tolerant ruler of the great ME, helped us build the second temple. 2. Great Turkey, tolerant one, gave us a safe haven when we needed it. Hope Turkey will work with the Palestinians today to bring tolerance, and living of all religions, together without destroying the Jewish holy sites. Of course, to the greatest hope that we all live in peace and brotherly love together. We did in my house.

A) Yes Ottoman sultan Beyazit weelcomed the Jews of Spain (My ancestors) to settle in its land but Istanbul?s population was never even close to have 30% Jews. B) Many Jews did have important positions in the Ottoman palace but not grand Vizier. Sokullu Mehmet Pasha was the most famous but he was a Christian recruit (Devshirme). Jews were mostly doctors accountants or diplomats in the palace. There was also a famous Jewish police chief in Istanbul Samuel Izisel. C) During WW II Turkish diplomats did save many Jews but 50 thousand is way over the real numbers. My father?s cousin who had been picked up in Rhodes was saved by a Turkish officer when the trains had to pass through a 2 KM stretch of railroad in Turkey. Selahattin Ulkumen saved a number of Jews including the Turiel sisters whom I knew here in New York. D) Today there are less then 20 thousand Jews living in Turkey mainly in Istanbul and some still in my hometown of Izmir. There is already a park in Israel named after Ataturk. I think for a small country like Israel this is enough to honor a friendly state. I don?t think there is a need to raise the Turkish flag in Jerusalem.

I smell a lot of anti-turkishness in here, which is (in lack of better words) very dissapointing. A) The Ottoman TURKS saved 200.000 jews fleeing from Spain in 1491. They settled in Salonica, known as "Mother Of Israel" at that time. 30% of Istanbuls population became jewish. B) Many Grand-Viziers were jewish turks. The Ottoman Sultans had so much confidence in their jewish citizens, that they effectively let them rule the empire! C) Suleyman The Magnificent (who considered him to be Solomon II!) restaurated the ENTIRE city of Jerusalem, including the Western Wall in honor of the jews of the Ottoman Empire D) During WW II, turkish diplomats saved more than 50.000 jews by issuing them turkish passports, and threatening Germany by war in case any harm was done to them E) Today more than 250.000 turkish jews live in Israel. Considering all this, a monument with a turkish flag is a SMALL gift to the turks, for their close relations with the jews, isnt it? Osman Karajan

Your post is the best I've read and makes alot more sense. Well done. I take my hat off to you. Cheers!

And going by you, we should also forget the mass slaughter of 6 million Jews and hundreds of thousands of other innocent people during WW2 simply because it happened 60 plus years ago? My grandfather fought in both WW1 and WW2, two of his sons fought in WW2. Only one of them is alive today. Perhaps I should call him and tell him to forget ANZAC Day too? Or maybe I should tell him, for the sake of $$$, our country could errect a War Memorial both in Australia and NZ for the loss of Ottoman lives or why not one for the Japanese while we're at it. Yep, that should go down real well among the RSL here. Not! You all can go chase your honor for $$$ and sell it out for profit. Where I come from we don't need to chase honor, it comes with us and walks with us. Guess that's what makes us stick out from the Americans (who only came into WW2 after Pearl Harbour was bombed in 1941) and Israelis!

Ofcourese the Ottoman falen soldiers do deserve a monument in Jerusalem, they have been a part of Jer history, just like the German Japanise English French falen soldiers do have monuments in Turkey or other countries. Why should not the Turkish soldiers have monuments in the counries where they have died for the sake of protrcting the Arab infidels.

for response to #75, see #187

When will we give back Hagia Sophia and Istanbul and rename it Constantinople?? Then you say Greeks MAY consider allowing us to put a monument in Athens. That is so gracious, you must be heading your country's diplomatic corps with this wisdom. We all hail your great solution for Turkey's decades-old problem of trying to have Greeks MAYBE consider to put a monument in Athens by giving them Istanbul. You have exceeded all expactations and a greatful Turkish public will vote for you to become the UN Secretary when you run next time. Thank you so much. We all look up to you for showing us right way. I have to go and pack now as 12 million of us are leaving Istanbul today so maybe Greece can consider to put a monument in Athens... Cheers and Thanks again!

Enemies may even find a connection. And after all, Jerusalem was, is and will be the City of David, God's lamp always before Him. What a great way to "turn up the flames". Remember the Blessings, and the messages contained therein. They were for all of mankind to observe.

It is very simple. Ask yourself this simple question: WHEN DID JERUSALEM LAST SAW PEACE? Yes AFTER the crusades, after ARAB conquest and European re-conquests, BEFORE the British intervened, before WW2 and the 6 day war and the Yom Kippur War and teh Intifada... Yes, the only time Jerusalem saw a long peace was under Ottoman rule. Jews, Arabs, Orthodox and Catholic, Armenians and Greeks all lived peacefully under the Ottoman Pasha and his Turkish soilders. Now then, after the Ottomans let the centuries pass by, and in the end lose to British, the last Ottoman soilders who defended the city, and in a way defended and died for an era of peace and brotherhood, of people able to live together: YES THOSE DEFENDERS THEY DO DESERVE A MONUMENT.

Attila, thanks for the advice about the holiday.

You may think so, but the Koran predicts that the very trees will reveal the accursed Jews hiding behind them, so the righteous Moslems may attack them!

There is an Armenian population living in the Jlm old city and I read some of them moved there as they fled from prosecution in Turkey 90 years ago. The Turkish government could build a memorial for the victims of the atrocities comitted against the Armenian people. That would make more sense in my opiniopn.

Americans deserve a monument in Jerusalem too for all the equipment given to take possession of it. :P

on any pretext- commemorating soldiers, anything- but a Turkish flag as close to the action as possible is what they want- a foot in the door again and any pretext will do to get it there.

I'm sure you must be referring to Maureen Ann, the prized one sided,pin head.

Do not waste your time, she is interested only in blaming Jews for every bad thing in the world. It is called being an Antisemite and nothing you write will change her mind, her hatred is pathological, maybe Freud could help, but it is doubtful too. Instead of what you do ignore everything she says and attack her on her weak national background where she has no leg to stand on. It is just mind boggling how people like her with so much baggage of sins on her back come here and criticize based when what she reads in some book or Jihadi website.

It is not difficult to find fake Ben-Gurion quotes on the Internet. I have done some research on the particular quote you included in your post. You might wish to look into that quote yourself. You might begin by asking Tosefta about it. I believe he and I were in agreement regarding the issue of its authenticity (or lack thereof) -- I had a discussion about it with him in another Talkback forum regarding a post of mine on fake Ben-Gurion quotes. I can return to this thread and supply more information later, though it might not be until much later in the day (or evening) here.

When you will give back to Greeks Hagia Sophia Church and their great city of Byzantium-Constantinople that you corrupted its name into Istanbul, Greeks may consider allowing you to put a monument in Athens.

I have read a book on the Altalena, but it was a long time ago. I will look into it again. Were they swimming with their weapons ? Still I believe that Ben Gourion was right to demand that all armed men/women came under the newly created Israeli army. Irgun would have accepted, these weapons could have been sent to Jerudalem. The time of Haganah, Irgun and Stern had passed, and militias are not the way to defend a democartic country. Look at Lebanon or the pals. The old City of jerusalem was lost mainly because the arab legion was heavily armed with modern weaponry provided by the british. have you read the book: The battle of Jerusalem.

First lets build a memorial in the old City, a pantheon reflecting Jewish history, to include Moses, Joshua, Kings Saul,David, Solomon as well as Bar Kochba Ben Yehuda, Chaim Nachman Bialik, Theodor Herzl, Lord Balfour, Chaim Weitzman.Gen.Wingate, Moshe Dayan, Menachem Begin, Yitzchak Shamir,Col. Marcus and the numerous Machal volunteers in the war of liberation. This would be our Lincoln memorial !

Do you have a page number for the final quotation from Ben-Gurion in your post -- "We must expel the Arabs...." Have you actually seen this quotation in the source you cite for it?

I'm willing to dedicate a monument to you-- The prerequisite is that you join the Aussies in the Australian Cemetery in Beersheva--There's enough space for your old bones--Of course, you must, at long last, take the flight you promised to make and become a human shield--

I find it quite astonishing that the government of Turkey should submit a proposal to the occupying Israeli authority to build a monument on Arab land? Israel has no business whatsoever in the Al Aqsa Mosque therefore the not so clever Turks should have never approached the Israelis for permission. Jerusalem is an occupied city and Israel has no right to interfere as far as the Arab city is concerned but trust the Turks to screw up as usual. As Palestinian Arabs, we don?t want to see a Turkish monument in the Mosque since we strongly believe that Turkey was solely responsible for the state of decline and poverty in our land. We could never forgive the Turks for not taking the region to the 20th century when they were in charge. The Turks were decadent and spent most of their time worrying about their harem and young boys instead of working to improve the living conditions of their subjects which subsequently led to the taking over of the region by the colonial Europeans.

Pleae look at the map of the british mandate of Palestine prior to 1921 and learn how britain stole more than half of it to create Trans-jordan for the hachemite king just thrown out of the arabian peninsula by the current saudi dynasty, to create an ally there. (this is why I insist that Jordan must be part of the future palestinian state).

Territory acquired in a defensive war of survival can, according to universal understanding, international law, and common sense, be retained until a negotiated peace is reached. The truth is that the Israeli people have again and again shown their willingness to put those territories on the table in the hope of achieving just such a negotiated settlement for just peace. I remember the historic Camp David accords between Israel and Egypt in 1978, which resulted in Israel's peaceful return of the Sinai to the Egyptians. An agreement made, an agreement kept. In 2000 Israel put on the table all what the palestinians were asking except its destruction with the so-called right of return, and Arafat launched a bloody war of attrition. Israel is not the agressor but it defends its citizen. You may criticize the way it does it, but the systematic demonization makes you and others very suspect (in my eyes).

In 1967 Iwas very young but I remember how the "international community" sat and waited for those hundreds of thousands of Arab troops to deliver a deathblow to Israel, and I remember that such a blow wasn't thwarted by international outrage, but by the unanticipated brilliance of the Israeli military. I remember that Israel acquired the Sinai, West Bank and Gaza not in a war of conquest, but in a desperate and just defensive war for survival.

In the 70s I traveled there a lot and felt no threat in the west bank. Jews and arabs were learning to live together (and I do not say that all settlers behaved nicely). There was almost no terror and there was no by-pass roads nor checkpoints. After Oslo and despite the agreements Arafat changed all of that. I have not read what you quote Ben Gourion saying , but what is missing is when did he say that (if he did) and in reaction to what. If you want to be objective you should not take you info from only one side, but from both. And Noam Chomsky is certainly not a reliable source. I have known him to manipulate a lot.

Excuse me but Chomsky is certainly not a reference I would trust. I do not always approve of israel policies, but too often they are judged as if Israel was agressing a peaceful and loving people. At the turn of the century Jews bought land in palestine to provide for a jewish state, and relationships with arabs were generally excellent. even to these days, when I was going to work in a kibbutz, relationships with neighboring arab villages (Galil) were very friendly. But Israel was the grain odf sand in the aspirations of 3 arab countries aiming at dominating the region (known as the great fertile crescent). namely: Egypt, Syria and Irak. They used the palestinian issue and people to fulfill their agendas and refused the establishment of the jewish state. They would not have attacked in 1948 Israel would still be what the UN plan of 1947 gave. they would not have attacked in 1967, Israel would not have occupied the west bank.

Just reading through post 36 and the usual propaganda of - "The Ottomans were murderers and who had no culture,unless you consider,rape,murder,and slavery" But then: "They turned the ME into a desert (!!!!!)" Yes us bloody Turks, who know nothing but rape murder and slavery on the weekends, who are single-handedly responsible for an Armenian Genocide and therefore the Holocaust because Hitler mumbled something about Armenians and Darfur and Bosnia etc, who have for 500 years destroyed every non-Turkish community within the ME and Balkans but only managed to get rid of the Urartus and Hitites, who have created smallpox, the plague and bird flu, who is the cause of every single evil in this world have finally done it! We have turned the Middle East into a desert! For my rapist, murderer, and slave-owning forefathers who did a little genocide on the weekends, I DEMAND A MOMUMENT IN JERUSALEM FOR THIS GREAT ACCOMPLISHMENT!

It is so refreshing to see opinions like yours expressed on this forum. I agree with you that our two nations represent great people who have a right to exist securely on their land. Our cooperation in the fields of economy, culture and most of all the fight against terrorism will continue and make the bond between our countries even stronger. Peace to you my friend.

Irgun requested that part of the arms be given to their men in Jerusalem--It wasn't done, Jerusalem was lost--Men were shot at while swimming to shore, I know a few of them--You really should contact the Altalenta website, or the American Veterans of Israel, so you would be better informed--

The problem isn't who pays them or their terms of service--The problem is that Moshe Dayan, out of sheer stupidity handed over the administration of the Temple Mount to the Waqf-- Dayan was great in war, his failing was to trust the Waqf to be honest and keep their obligation regarding access to the Temple Mount--

Nothing, since Ghengis Khan and Hitler, compares to the Muslim's engaged in Worldwide slaughter--Here's a few statistics, choke on them--As I said before, "May you grow like an onion".--Read on, you pathetic ignoramus and virulent anti-semite, living on land your stole from your Aborigines, safely hiding in Australia, unwnilling to fulfill your human shield obligation-- http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks So, you think the Ku Klux Klan and the Spanish Inquisition are bad? So do we, but... Put the Numbers in Perspective More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. (source) Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years. (source) More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland. (source) 19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years. (source) It's all about Iraq, isn't it? Yep, it's all about Iraq and... India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Kabardino-Balkaria and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Argentina and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Australia and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and Chad and Canada and China and Nepal and the Maldives and... ...and pretty much wherever Muslims believe their religion tells them to: "Fight those who do not believe in Allah, ... nor follow the religion of truth... until they pay the tax in acknowledg-ment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection." Qur'an, Sura 9

Before you talk about the Altalena, find out, who, what and where--Thousands??, you're really displaying ignorance--What happened to the Altalena was a one time event--Muslims killing each other is a daily happening--May you grow like an onion (an ancient Jewish blessing). Next part of this post will contain the times and places Muslims are killing non-Muslims--

"The world was too ridiculous even to bother to live in it" Quote from Little Big Man, the movie. Seems like it after reading all the comments posted here. I just got though watching Little Big Man with Dustin Hoffman again. Anyway, the point is Custer is depicted as a hypocrite who would issue orders saying, "Spare the American Indian women and children!," and then say under his breath, "Only shoot them if they try to resist." So I looked to see if there was a Statue of General Custer somewhere and sure enough, I located one here... http://ohsweb.ohiohistory.org/places/ne01/index.shtml Sounds too familiar, huh?

Urgent need for a new wife, I`m down to only two, bromise you would be my most beloved third wife, do not cry of habbiness, I know you cannot wait to get here, or mabybe I should come to Bthurst, sounds like lovely blace you have there but it is much more fun here in Gaza these days, the skies are full of fireworks all night long. So blease, I am imbatient!

I agree with your post. Last year I read an article (on MSNBC) about jews in villages in the eastern part of Turkey hiding their judaism for fear of persecution or even worse, though one cannot blame the turkish governement though they could act and educate. RE:It also protested the IAF flight over Turkey in attacking the nuclear site in Syria. Honestly, the protests were quite mild and IMHO more for the facade than a shift in policy.

"If I knew it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but historical recognizing of Israel." David Ben-Gurion. "Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... the country is theirs, because they inhabit it, where as we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from their country." David Ben-Gurion. quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle... citing 1938 speech. "We must expel the Arabs and take their place." David Ben-Gurion, 1937 'David Ben-Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs.' Oxford University Press, 1985. To Phillipe, no, not an expert, but shocked. The ancient Jewish people my grandmother taught me of... the people God spoke to, would never treat human beings as the Palestinians are being treated.

This is why I feel bad of taking you to task. Turkey and its predecessor the Ottoman Empire were certainly not as bad as others toward Jews but you must know that things have not always been rosy under Turkish/Ottoman rule for Jews and Israel. The Sultan refused to allow the creation of an autonomous Jewish region in Israel when petitioned by Hertzel the founder of the National Liberation Movement of the Jewish people, Zionism. This was at a time when Jews suffered terribly from pogroms in Russia and Poland. Turkey has sided with the Arab countries over and over again in this one Middle East conflict and supports the partitioning of tiny Israel to give Arabs one more country, their 23rd. More recently Turkey thumbed its nose into the dispute over the construction of a bridge outside Temple Mount in Jerusalem. It also protested the IAF flight over Turkey in attacking the nuclear site in Syria. As you can see Turkey is a mixed bag as far as Israel and Jews are concerned.

I do not disagree with your first point. But by demanding a monument to the soldiers of the Ottoman empire, doesn't Turkey recognize Ottoman history as its own. In which case they have to come to terms with all of it.

........a monument to remember exterminated Aborigines in Bathurst which is the logical conclusion and ChanahS original request? When Turkish soldiers died in WW1 in Israel it happened 90 years ago, also a long time ago.

Jews and Arabs are both the aborigines of the land called Palestine today. Jews lived in that land continuously for several millenniums.

1. The Internet is not the only source to learn history. However there is some information about Hovhannes Katchaznouni and the 1923 manifesto if you dig enough. 2. The book is not lost, it can be found in some libraries. I believe the big library at Princeton University has it. It is just something that Armenians know but do not talk about, prefer to forget. 3. Turks are admitting that 1915 to 1918 there was a forced exile of Armenians where thousands died in brutal conditions and even killed. However they are disputing the use of the word genocide for it. As a Jew who has lost family from the island of Rhodes in the Holocaust I know the difference where the Jews were loyal citizens when they were deported and exterminated only because they are Jewish while the Armenians had been revolting against the Turks since 1885. 4. Not every atrocity conducted against groups of humans by others can be classified as genocide. Japanese also did a similar thing to the Chinese during the war but we do not call that genocide too. Lets not degrade the meaning of the word by applying to all atrocities.

Urgent need for a new wife, I`m down to only two, bromise you would be my most beloved third wife, do not cry of habbiness, I know you cannot wait to get here, or mabybe I should come to Bthurst, sounds like lovely blace you have there but it is much more fun here in Gaza these days, the skies are full of fireworks all night long. So blease, I am imbatient!

"Timeline of Australian Jewish History." http://www.ajhs.info/jha/timeline.htm "The Ark." 'The Kimberly Plan.' http://www.abc.net.au/rn/relig/ark/stories/S1438826.htm There are no statues in memory of Windradyne in Bathurst as a matter of respect for Aboriginal belief. Australia's present Prime Minister, and supporter of Israel/US Bushism, John Howard, refuses to say 'sorry' to Australian Aborigines for past injustice inflicted upon them. To this day there is much generational sadness in Aboriginal communities caused by past colonialism - a different time and a different place, but displaced Palestinian people also suffer generational sadness. We need to understand that violence is a way for the oppressed to be heard... we all have to work for a better tomorrow.... stop being elitist... before we all wipe each other out. Peace, through empathy and respect for the other.

to meet your needs. The Hebrews are the original inhabitants of Israel. The name of the land prior to the coinage of the phrase Palestine given by the British.

Have you ever heard of Issach Nachman Steinberg 1888-1957. He was a Latvian/Russian Jew who proposed the purchase of land in the Kimberley region of Australia in order to settle some 75 000 Jewish refugees from Europe. Please Read: "Isaac Nachman Steinberg." http://www.adb.online.anu.edu.au/biogs/Al60362b.htm About the Wiradjuri people. There territory expanded over a greater area than just the Bathurst region. "Heritage Office." 'The Grave of Windradyne.' (an extraordinary leader of the Wiradjuri people.) http://www.heritage.nsw.gov.%2B5051560 Unforgivable deeds were carried out by the early settlers to Australia, ChanahS. I cannot change history that occurred before I was born, but I sure can protest against the atrocities being carried out by the State that calls itself a Western democracy in the Middle East. If you can feel empathy for the suffering of Australian Aborigines you can feel the same empathy for the Palestinian people - the original inhabitants of Palestine. Peace.

Also i'd like to add about those people who talk about armenian issue against Turkey. Today's Turkish Republic has no responsibility about what happened during that time in Ottoman Empire. We are not responsible for anything if the genocide happened or not. Get real! Today's Turkey isn't the continue of Ottoman State, neither its governmental policy is the same. It's a secular-modern-law based country. But those curses against our ancestors really offend us in a bad way. The world should accept the existance of Turkey and also Israel, that we have right to live on our lands. The Armenian Genocide supporters are just seeking for take eastern anatolia from Turkey with a huge amount of money. We all know your purposes and what you are after for. But believe me you'll never achieve it!

Golly, now I gotcha---gee, so your argument is everybody wiped out their indigenous people, and therefore anybody objecting at this point to you and yours doing it has some nerve "butting their nose" into Zionists' business. Yes, I see, however, this is the 21st century and you are in the ME, which is full of Arabs, having largely plopped down from Europe, and the homies there don't agree, along with many in the world at this point, that Zionists should be able to genocide the Pals and while stealing their land. But, I understand the argument; it's just many no longer agree with it so now we sit on the brink of nuclear war and yet you feel entitled to push on. Oh well, carry on. Regards.

I'm really feeling proud to be a Turk by having ancestors who fought to defend their country's lands at that time. Though for "some" people to see Turkish flag somewhere may be annoying, but until last Turk resides on earth, that flag will be on sky! no matter what they say, no matter what racist communities on earth have feelings against Turks, I thank to Israel for this monument as a real sign of being friends. Turks fought in many places on many regions, but today none of those countries did anything to show their respect. And today, Turkey and Israel are alone countries against terrorism and other dangers from borders. No matter what the others do, strong nations like us will stay on earth forever!

After Israel was born, Ben Gourion asked the Irgou n and Stern group to join into the new Israeli army and to give the weapons on board the Altalena to that army. They refused and he ordered the ship sank. Israel was born as a democracy that could not accept aremed militia. He risked a civil war for these principles. Arafat should have done the same once he came to lead the PA, but he did not have the guts. RE:hose trying to swim to safety, are said to have been fired upon as well Totally untrue. RE:It was only last year that I started to learn of the history of the colonial creation of Israel. And you are already an expert. I have studied Israel history for the last 40 years. Actually it was an anti-colonial fight. Zionism being the National Liberation Movement of the Jewish people. But of course being a british colon yourself, it is just logical that you can't see that.

Why would Israel accept to erect a monument for ottoman slodiers that expelled jews from their holy city, which they have inhabited for millenia?

Can you imagine an Israeli monument in Gaza?

King Hussein of Jordan is leader of the Hashemites, responsible for the Muslim holy sites, lost in one of the wars. I do not know the history. They have control of this site now? I will have to look it up.

Fair trade

There are 53 000 Turks living in Australia according to the 2006 Census. Australian culture has benefited greatly because of their presence! I love the food! There is a memorial with pride of place, to Kemal Ataturk, Anzac Parade Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, with the inscription: "Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives... you are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours... you, the mothers, who sent their sons from far away countries wipe your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace, after having lost their lives on this land. They have become our sons as well." Soil from Anzac Cove Turkey, was placed beneath the Memorial Plaque. Turkish flags are carried each year during Anzac ceremonies. Peace to you and yours, Atilla.

Is there a memorial in Bathurst for the Wiradjuri Aboriginal peoples - the original inhabitants of that region, who were murdered becasue some English general took a fancy to the region? Perhaps you should start by learning the history of the "colonial creation" of Bathurst and australia before poking your nose in other people's business.

Jeff, you are correct that the Waqf is a Hashemite based group. My questions are: Who appoints the members of the Waqf- the Hasehmites? How long is their term? Who pays the salariies of the Waqf members? Who are they answerable to- the Hashemites? If the answers are the Hashemites in all respects, it is icing on the cake that the Arabian Hashemites continue to tbe at the center of all the problems relating to palestinians and Israel.

The Waqf's director-general Adnan al-Husseini said his decision to shun the Knesset committee on excavations invitation was due to the Waqf's policy. 'The Waqf does not acknowledge Israel's authority in Jerusalem or the Temple Mount…the Waqf boycotts Israeli politicians all the time.'.After September 2000, the Muslim Waqf closed off the Temple Mount entirely to any archeological oversight by the Israel Antiquities Authority. Then, in order to complete new underground mosques at the site, it removed to city garbage dumps some 13,000 tons of rubble from the Temple Mount that included archeological remnants from the First and Second Temple periods. The intention is to turn the entire 36-acre Temple Mount compound into an exclusively Muslim site by erasing every sign, remnant, and memory of its Jewish past, including the destruction of archeological findings that are proof of this past.

Is there a monument in Israel in memory of the thousands of Jewish people who went down with the Atalena which was flying the white flag when it was fired upon by Jewish/Zionist brethren? Those trying to swim to safety, are said to have been fired upon as well! Unbelievable! Reference with photo: "The Atalena and The State of Israel." www.jewshmag.com/20MAG/ATALENA/atalena.html-17k It was only last year that I started to learn of the history of the colonial creation of Israel. Thank you very much Ben Jabo for teaching me of the other side of Zionism. Sad but true. By the way, isn't it illegal for anyone suffering a mental condition to own a gun in America? Peace.

I want to build a monument dedicated to the Jews killed in World War 2--I think the ideal spot would be the center of Amman, Jordan and another in the Center of Damascus--Of course the Magen David would have to fly above it--Can you get me permission to have it done..??

muslims massacred in 2001?

millions of Jews and Christians. I guess that means we'll probably give it the go ahead.....

I am really sorry to send so many talkbacks, but I think this matter of a taboo is for the anthropology dept. or psychology dept. and how it derives from and affects the Turks. This is a real, honest to goodness taboo. Reading the Turkish newspapers and how they talk about this genocide issue and how they treat it, my anthropoly student genes have uncovered a TABOO. I am not sure we should force the Turks to lift this taboo. I am only guessing at its raison d'etre. I would like more concrete discussion. Guess I will have to read more books about taboos. Turks today did not commit the atrocities as Germans today did not commit the atrocities and we should not provoke an ally. Also, a healthy economy for both countries prevents a rerun of the past.

David Israel - I found a website Armenian Tall Tales which says this document you talk about existed but was destroyed by the Armenians in all the libraries around the world. My guess is that it never existed. Who is telling the tall tales, Armenians or Turks. However, there was a first president of the Armenian Republic who is running again this year and wanted to have good relations with Turkey. 1. The past: massacres (genocide) but Turkey has taboo about talking about them. Why the taboo? Does it mean committing genocide by Turks is taboo.Let's try to understand the taboo. 2. The present. Azerbaijan had a war with Armenia and is not letting Turkey open up its borders with Armenia. Let Armenia and Azerbaijan straighten this out. 3. The future. EU is demanding so many things that look impossible for Turkey to meet. Let Turkey work this out. I think there is some genocide denial in Turkey and extremists.However, I think this is a matter of a taboo

Its time to really put the PM on this blast forum. I want to know, who from Turkey has asked for this monument to be erected. Was it the Turkish Parliament?, their Prime Minister? Soon we will have requests from the pigmeys in Equatorial Africa,to build a series of 1 meter monuments.

Howdy Leven5; It is not conducive to mental health to hold grudges for too long. For God's sake, WW I ended 90 years ago and the War in Vietnam ended 32 years ago. Some of my buddies died in Vietnam too, but it has been long enough not to be consumed by festering, old animosities. If the Vietnamese want to erect a war memorial in Washington, D.C., to the approximately 1.1 million NVA/VC soldiers who died during the war in exchange for a U.S. war memorial in Ho Chi Minh City to our 58,234 KIAs, why not? It might help to heal old wounds and encourage tourism. As long as neither country flies its national flag over the memorial, I can't see anything wrong with it.

As for the Turkish flag foisted against the Jewish people inside the current waqf-controlled section of the temple mount? NO WAY, JOSÉ. As for the Turkish flag flying proudly under the aegis of a Sephardic community in Israel honoring Turks? aaah, that's a totally different story: IT SHALL NEVER BE FORGOTTEN that when the fires of Christian Jihad had reached the bull rings of el-Andaluz and filled them with autos-da-fé of burning Jews .. it was the Turks who offered asylum and took them into their realm, with shouts of hoş geldiniz! thus performing tikkun olam and serving Hashem in saving His people Israel.. Now THAT flag-raising day will dawn in joy and jubilation for all lovers of truth.

Howdy Chick; The Islamic Waqf of the Temple Mount has authority over surface structures, courtyards, and grounds, but Israel retains ultimate sovereignty over it and subsurface acheological rights. I seem to recall that the Waqf is part of a Jordanian trusteeship of Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem and has nothing to do with the PA. The Israeli-Jordanian Peace Treaty specifies Jordan as the "protector" of Muslim holy places in Jerusalem. Israel has similar arrangements with respect to Christian holy sites which are administered, maintained, and protected by a council of Christian clergy from the Roman and Eastern Orthodox Catholic Churches. (I think that the Protestants got shut out though). Israeli Basic Law (7/30/1980): "The Holy Places shall be protected from desecration and any other violation and from anything likely to violate the freedom of access of the members of the different religions to the places sacred to them or their feelings towards those places."

But I can not agree that Turks were always good to their minorities or Millets as they were called under Ottoman rule. During the oil wrestling season 1936 Jews of Kirklareli were attcked violently, in 1941 the Varlik vergisi was passed and all the property my family owned up to housewares were confiscated, in 1955 september 6-7 I was a little boy when I saw mobs entering none Moslem households and pillaging. We were saved by the rightous landlord Mustafa Bey who told them that they could only go up to our floor over his dead body and the mob left across the street and ruinedthe apt of an American NATO officers home.

The first PM of the independent Armenian Republic Hohannes Katchaznouni presented a manifesto in the Dashnak party convention in Bucharest where he himself declared that the actions of the Ottoman rulers were justified. He specifically asked this document to be published in Vienna in 1923 and first Englisg translation in 1955. Why is it that Armenians keep that as a big secret and would not like to discuss it?

we've actually returned to our enchanted isle, 'engineer,' and enjoy fine relations with those whom we've admitted that we wronged. the analogue in your case would be a return to the steppe and an apology to the armenians, the greeks, the arabs, etcetera. and still we wait.

Jeff, I don't know what the standard is. The flag is a minor issue for me. I don't care if the Turkish flag is carved on a bronze tablet and put on the monument. In any case, it is not the flag which irritates people here or in Israel. It is more: Jerusalem is ours and we don't want no Islamic remembrance.

Israel has: One is bombing states into the stoneage before they even come up with the idea to pose a treat, and the other still living in the middle age and cultivating their own nonexistant importance.

He is our love. You better remember !!

Howdy Tosefta; I more-or-less agree with you on this one. A monument to Turkish war dead in Jerusalem would be alright and even appropriate since a lot of Turkish soldiers died in Palestine during the Great War. If the monument is to be built on unused land, it does not require anything already existing to be torn down, it doesn't get in the way of vehicular or pedestrian traffic, and it doesn't cover up an archeological site, then I have no objections to it. However, flying the Turkish flag over it is out. Flying the national flag is a declaration of sovereignty. The Turks can fly their national flag over their embassy and consulates, but not over any place else in Israel. A better idea is to build a monument to all of the soldiers who have died in battle throughout all of the wars of the past 4000 years which have been fought over that blood-soaked "Holy Land" (excluding terrorist assholes of course). The Romans, Babylonians, Hittites, etc. would be pleased.

Israel has got to be joking! My grandfather and his unit fought the Ottomans and lost many of his commrades. His son, my uncle, later went on to assist the Zionists in "Palestine" in WW2. I'm disgusted, appauled and ashamed by the Israeli Govt, once again, selling their honor (as they did to Germany after WW2) once again.

Its obvious that this is just the Islamic Wakf finding another opportunity to stick its thumb in Israel's eye. Turning over the management of the Temple Mount to this hostile disrespectful entity remains a glaring mistake that must be corrected.

The Waqf allocated? Let;'s stop this absurdity now. What should have been done easily in 1967 must now be done with more diffculty - ending the Waqf's sole authority. It must be a joint authority. All excavations, diging mustbe jointly approve. The Waqf is a palestinian board of authority. The palestinians deny the history of Judaism and the true history of the Temple Mount. Can yet they are the authroity over the Temple Mount!! CAn anything be more absurd. Why not allow neo-nazi groups control in Europe of Death Camp grounds. Escape into fantasy is often a response to a harsh reality. Israel seems to be doing exactly that by allowing the Waqf to continue its authority.

maybe the armenians could also build a monument to the 1 million plus armrnians slaughtered by the ottomans.

with your sick logic your name must be more like The_Clown_who_is_anti-Human-race for backing those ottoman butchers after knowing the crimes that they commited in many parts of the world over 500 years while expeding and enslaving . Let me guess your heros are hitler and stalin or may-be lenin

eventually we have a place to return do you have a place to return except from rat hole why we invaded İstanbul? it is because why you invaded india pakistan jamaica falkland etc

upon the Lord, believing His every Word, by His grace.

"Blessed is he who comes in the Name [Word] of the Lord"

to work together to accomidate the "flow of the Nations" that will come to honor and praise the God of Abraham!!! The masses will be great!!! The Joy; now unimaginable, will be felt by all!!! The burden of rule lifted from the shoulders of those who sought it, as they embrace the Gorious Reign of our Creator God!!!

Professor Hilmar Kaiser was going over the turkish archives few years ago when he asked too many question on missing sections and parts of archives he was escorted out right away . When I met him in 2004 and asked him about the archives he said turkish army archives are off to public viewing and as for turkish archives I guess it is open with a limit unless now it is costumed to hid the Armenian Genocide for ever. By the way Professor Hilmar Kaiser is German not Armenia and he has facts dates names that proves with no doubt that the Genocide was real and turks did commit that murderous crime in 1915-1918 on poor Armenians And please do not give me the baby logic where 2 million or so oppressed and occupied Armenians were killing the turks in ottoman empire that stretched from Morocco to Syria to lower Europe.

Taboos include political censorship, (Turkish article 301?) dietary laws (keeping kosher) sexual relations (incest) re: the dead Question: can they lift the taboo? What is the importance and meaning of penal code 301 to the Turks? Turkish newspapers have had many wonderful stories I have been reading this year about Armenia-Turkey; however, journalists still being prosecuted under 301 and some afraid of saying anything. I would never say a word if I visited Turkey because I know about the taboo.

"Taboos as manifested in various cultures have stimulated an extensive scholarly literature that seeks to compare, analyze, and explain them. Among the most important researchers or theorists on the topic were William Robertson Smith, Sir James G. Frazer in his work The Golden Bough (1907?15),Wilhelm Wundt, and Sigmund Freud in his book Totem and Taboo (1913).Freud provided perhaps the most ingenious explanation for the apparently irrational nature of taboos, positing that they were generated by ambivalent social attitudes and in effect represent forbidden actions for which there nevertheless exists a strong unconscious inclination. Freud directly applied this viewpoint to the most universal of all taboos,the incest taboo, which prohibits sexual relations between close blood relatives. There is no generally accepted explanation of taboos, but there is broad agreement that the taboos current in any society tend to relate to objects and actions that are significant for the social order."

"Generally, the prohibition that is inherent in a taboo includes the idea that a breach or defiance of the taboo will automatically be followed by some kind of trouble to the offender, such as lack of success in hunting or fishing, sickness, or the death of a relative. These misfortunes would ordinarily be regarded as accidents or bad luck, but to believers in taboos they are regarded as punishments for breaking some taboo. A person meets with an accident or has no success in a given pursuit, and, in seeking for its cause, he or others infer that he has in some manner committed a breach of taboo."

Steve you need to understand what Armenians say when we question why Arabs or others do not support our cause even as you say in your post ?the Arabs welcomed you as refugees when you fled the massacres 90 years ago ?. This Genocide till today is denied by turks while you know as fact that it was massacres at least and Genocide for sure , that is why there is so many Armenians in ME who run away from it. All Armenians are so grateful to Arabs and others who took us in their countries and gave us hope and chance to live again while our parents and relatives murdered by turk in our ancestral land of occupied Armenia. Here in Canada I always mention to others how Arabs , Greece ,France ,Bulgaria , Iran ,USA and many others saved us from total destruction by taking the weak and counrty-less Armenians and allow us prosper among their own people without any discrimination.But this does not mean that if Arabs or others who saved us will get a card-blanche from Armenians and make us blind

"It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all the nations shall flow to it" - Isaiah 2:2 The Turks can erect this monument in Turkey, but they want to erect it in Jerusalem because of its universally recognized status as a holy city. Why should Israel object? It is nice that our capital city is so valued. And if the Arab residents of Jerusalem don't feel slighted by a monument to their subjugators, and indeed offer Waqf land for the monument, why should the Jews object? In practical terms, Turkey is a friendly nation and the monument will help further the friendship, and might even bring a few more tourists to Israel. The Turks should be welcome.

the Nations He seperated. They no longer seek by war the land; from the God ordained land of the Nation of Israel. In humility, they support the people of Israel (son of Isaac - Jacob) in accordance to the Word of the Holy One of Israel, the God of Abraham; Who is the same, today, yesterday and tomorrow. AND Christians would also support (with Israel's fierce backing-no doubt) the sons of Ishmael should any foreigners attempt to overtake the land of their Nations. It is what it is; both were blessed to BE a blessing - Christians to be a proof. Let's do it God's way, for His Name's sake - and show this world and the evil one who was cast down; Our God is God, His children love and support one another - There is no other.

the Nazi's in the SECOND WORLD WAR--No need to allocate land or space, those Arabs don't exist--Of course a monument could be dedicated to those Arabs that fought on behalf of the Nazis and helped run the extermination camps--However, that particular monument would have to be on Arab soil--

a bit like the last words of dutch schultz here, atilla. get hold of yourself, lad, you're apt to burst a blood vessel. and by the way, why in heaven's name did you invade constantinople? wouldn't the noble thing be to return to the steppes to hunt hares?

you seem to be a bit upset, atilla. may i suggest a valium?

Is there a memorial in Bathurst for the Wiradjuri Aboriginal peoples - the original inhabitants of that region, who were murdered becasue some English general took a fancy to the region? "The Bathurst area was originally occupied by the Wiradjuri Aboriginal peoples. The government surveyor George William Evans was the first European to sight the Bathurst Plains in 1813. Bathurst was founded in 1815 on the orders of Governor Lachlan Macquarie, and is the oldest inland town in Australia. The name Bathurst comes from the surname of the British Colonial Secretary Lord Bathurst. It was intended to be the administrative centre of the western plains of New South Wales where orderly colonial settlement was planned. Local Wiradjuri groups under leaders such as Windradyne resisted the settlers until the Frontier Wars of the early 1820s ended the open conflict.

One does not propose a monument for what they are ashamed of. Christians will never seek monument for crusaders. Blindness is not something to take pride in.

Such mindless drivel... You'd think the ME is such great shape today because the Ottomans are gone. Hatred, pure and simple, makes even "normal" people on this page look like utter fools. As if things are SOOOO rosy now, right? Now that the Terrible Turk has vanished off the scene, all of the high-horse evangalists are celebrating the wonderful peace and security everyone is enoying in mixed cities, right? Or, what am I saying, since the Ottomans departed, there does not seem to have been a day anyone had a good night's sleep, despite all the walls and mutual cleansing and other wonderful examples of humanity for the last century. That, my friends, is called the TRUTH and COMEUPPANCE. Enjoy it for another thousand years, or two. No wonder people are really pissed at the Turks; they made it look easy and now it is clear that it "ain't". Enjoy your new found peace and prosperity, people. However, for some weird reason, Turks and Turkey do not envy you. I am happy the Ottomans are gone!

My friend do you know Turkey offered Armenia to open all the archieves about 1 year ago We still wait for an answer wwhy dont they have courage to do so we said we are ready to open all our archieves to the historians we wait the same thing from other side will they lose gum They chew all the time

Stork: They originally settled in Adana. Later on the family relocated to the Hejaz as tax-collectors and customs agents of the Sultan. To the best of my knowledge the family name was originally Saixus (ben Avrahami). :)

commemorate the passing of: DEMENTED DUTCH, INDRAJAYA, YAAKOV SULLIVAN, MAUREEN ANN, MARILYN, ERIC, BALLISTIC, and the rest of that crew--Of course, it must be clearly understood they can't be memorialized until they pass on-- So, if they want recognition, they must hurry and pass on--

The old city was built by Jews while Arab wanderers were still chasing their flocks and collecting the dung for cooking fires--Show me one single example of an Arab coin, artifact or Tel that indicates Arabs ever contributed to anything worthwhile--Of course, these items must pre-date the Roman conquest--

that's nice. supporters of arab hate speech. classic. you make good watchguards at the camps.

Of course as a good turkish person you will deny all the facts, but if you check archives and historians they will admit turkey did commit the crime of century The Genocide ,even your liberal turkish writers accepted it yet you shut them up with your justice system. My grandparents witnessed your so called never happened Genocide of 1915-1919 ,so you are the one lying now, plus Armenians never occupied other peoples lands too bad you could not say that to turkey or the ottoman empire. I guess it is very hard to accept that your country and culture is based on occupation murder enslaving and stealing other peoples lands ( like Kurds , Greeks , Cypriots ,Serbs , Syrians , Armenians ?) As for your threats atila it shows even modern day turks are not much different from ottoman empire butchers. I know all deniers of Armenia Genocide of 1915-1919 committed by turks are either ignorant or have no conscience.

You really wouldn't want Maureen Ann- She's tired and cowardly--She would make you promises and never keep them--Aside from that she is old and ugly--Better you should find a camle and marry it--It, will at least carry it's share of the burden--Maureen Ann will just nag you without giving pleasure--

and put your feet on the ground to show your support of the Palestinian's--After all, you did promise to become a Human Shield---You encourage others to do what you don't have the guts to do in person--Always sitting in the grandstands, never getting on to the playing field--

Where Muslims slaughtered hundreds of Jews. If the Islamists expect Israel to fly a Turk flag, then they should reciprocate.

Building a synagogue in Istanbul is not reciprocity. Istanbul is not one of Islam's holy cities, whereas Jerusalem...

The book of genesis mentions the land of philistines. So maybe the name palistinians came from that.

If the Turks build a monument it should be to Attaturk who liberated them from radical Islamist jihad and created modern Turkey. To commemorate the Ottomans slaughter in Jerusalem is an affront to freedom.

I generally don't have problem with Turkish, I like them, but I like the British more.

romans greeks assyrians babylonians hittites crusaders british all who held sway over the land at one time or another and died fighting for it ? you dont have to be stupid to work for the PMO but it surely helps !

Israel and Turkey both need to recognize the Armeniah Holocaust committed by the Ottoman Turks! The only monument that should be built should be in memory of the million + Armenians murdered at the hands of the Ottoman Turks. Building a memorial to the Ottoman soldiers of Turkey would be like building a memorial to the Nazi soldiers who died fighting for Germany. There's no place for either of these wastes of space in the Jewish State.

to all those ignorant anti-Jews and the Pal-Arabs, who keep insisting that Israel, known by the ROMANS given nickname Palestine, was Pal-Arabs' land! I hope that they will also engrave in the monument that the Al Aqsa Mosque was built by the Turks as well - ON THE TOP OF the Jewish Temple-site like they built their Mosque in Istanbul on the TOP OF A CHURCH, which is the Turkish HABIT.....and that Al Aqsa has NOTHING to do with the Pal-Arabs other than being used as a political tool against Israel by the Pal-Arabs, and does NOT justify them to claim Jerusalem for themselves! The Monument will become a standing reminder of the TRUTHful history of Israel's past and those people, who were OCCUPYING the Jewish Land for 600 years. Moreover: the Turkish flag is an excellent detail! Pal-Arabs, who NEVER rebelled against the Turkish OCCUPIERS, should have nothing to complain about NOW neither. Jalla, Jalla Israel!

It was he and General Allenby who broke the insanely corrupt Ottoman Empire. Lawrence was a member of Allenby's party when Allenby received the key to Jaffa Gate after liberating Jerusalem. Ask the Hashemite Jordanians how much they wish to honor the Ottoman Empire... they launched the Arab Revolt, assisted by the British, to free themselves from Turkish enslavement. The PMO is asking for trouble on this one.

Of course you are stranger, for simple reaseon, jerusalem does NOT belong to you. The turkish are fool for asking STRANGERS permision to build a monument. They should ask the people who gave jerusalem glory and history, THE ARAB & Muslem. Get it

Since we are on the topic of Turkey...there is a more pressing problem to think about. If Turkey attacks the Kurds, and gets its hands full, would it not be a good idea for Greece to take back its territories. Shouldnt the Americans help the Greeks prepare? Hence, in the end, an increase of Kurdistan, and an increase of Greece would be interesting...since it would also help the European Union by including some parts of Turkey (mostly Christian) as Greek. As to the monument, let the Turks have their monument, but only on wheels.

In reply to 72, Ottoman tolerance is due to the fact that they were Moslems. The Moslem religion does not preach hatred of the Jew like the Chritian religion does.

Dear Friends Ottoman empire was multicultural and multinational one it had armenian,greek slavian etc non muslim population why the only some armenians experienced some troubles while some of them in the west and in then capital istanbul havent Many men of the Turkish population were at different fronts like syria libya.crimea etc Villages were uncapable to defense against armenian attacks supported by Russia and given hope to create independent state by some western countries Armenian people were called "loyal nation" in ottoman empire and their collobaration with enemy,Russia in that trouble time was like a stabbing from back dont forget many armenian had high rankings in ottoman empire of course Treason has a price and unfortunately both sides paid this price

Considering the complete incompetence of Ottoman rule, I wonder what message Turkey wishes to give by its monument. Five hundred years of mismanagement is nothing to celebrate.

My mother's family was expelled from Spain, some moved to Holland, others to Turkey. Although corrupt at times, the Turks treated Jews without undue prejudice throughout their empire for 400 years, including those who settled in Eretz Yisroel. Had the Byzantines remained in control, there would have been no Jewish settlement here whatsover. (Needless to say, of my mother's family who remained in Holland and my father's family who were from Germany all that remains is ashes. It is time we acknowledge gratitude to Turkey as a haven, particularly in light of our excellent relationship today.

It would be a disgrace if a turkish monument would be erected, as Turkey still denies the Armenian Genocide. Turkey killed millions of Christians: Armenians, Syrian-Orthodox and Greek-Orthodox alike. A monument to honour those with blood on their hands is disgusting.

"zmogus really your post is so pointless and without merit that i have to tell you silence would have been preferable" -y.sh. That was precisely my point in response to MJ #36: silence would have been preferable to cosmic blunder MJ called a "reciprocity". Now back to the subject.

"so called" İsrael ı dont know in which cave you live but it is clear that you are far from real world didnt we come those mountains you cited before many times but we couldnt see you there in your caves you were like rats didnt you have guts where were you

The Ottomans were brutal and tortured the Palestinians during their rule. They also used them to overthrow the Egyptians out of Palestine in the 1800's. They tortured and hung many Palestinians after they were tricked by the Brits to assist them in defeating the Ottomans in exchange for independence. The Ottomans sympathized with the Jews during the early 1900s and shut down many Palestinian newspapers, including Filastin. There is only 1 flag that will fly over that site and it's not going to be a Turkish flag. It's a Palestinian flag. Why don't turkey allow the Greeks to fly a flag in present day Istanbul, formerly Constantinople which is the site where the last Greek soldiers fought to their last soldier? Exactly, they want to try to gain influence in the region, as if Iran, Israel, and Saudi Arabia aren't already tugging all the sides.

is even more convoluted and dissosciated than the first one.

I have to leave, now. If those bad Armenians friends talk behind me :) you have my permission brother (Achi) to talk on behalf of me ! you can also use my name ! but try to write as poem :) bad haaretz operators are too wise to understand :) bye bye and love Atilla Karagözoğlu

Nothing is paradoxical in the wars of monuments. The memorial boards in Jerusalem loud the Jewish underground gangs that fought to push out the British, and that killed on that or another spot a British military. On Mount Scopus, Jerusalem, there's a majestic British Military cemetery for troops killed in pushing out Turks. If Ottoman troops will get a modest 3m tall commemorative spot in this hopelessly museum-like city, there'll be nothing extraordinary. The fear of its "Muslim" character voiced here is just preposterous knowing how far from pan-Islamic conquest were the troops in question. At any rate, where there's a will, there's a way, and the tacit Israel/Turkey conventions about Armenian genoc. is a stronger factor than McLean plan(1918) proscription to build just outside Jerusalem walls. Within the same city street names coexist not only the celebrities with totally different outlook to Judaism (Freud & Rambam), but to the very State of Israel (Ehad-haAm & Jabotinsky).

are you seriously expecting from me to give a response to you while you chose to take a name as ISRAEL ? WHO IS IDIOT ? YOU OR ME :) take a different name ! than we make some ROCK IN ROLL right here on haaretz :) Its fun time :) JOIN THE JOY RIDE EVERYONEEEEE :) love Atilla Karagözoğlu

...we all go to a great Armenian restaurant than we cheers and have fun alltogether :) what we eat ? well, we let that to the armenian restaurant friends to chose it. I WISH WHOLE WORLD DRINK FOR A WHILE DRINKING MAKES YOU PURE YOU CANT STAY RACIST YOU CANT STAY BAD YOU DIRECTLY CONTACT WITH THE GOD HE TALKS TO YOU IN THOSE TIMES. I DONT MEAN DISRESPECT. SOME TIMES I WISH WE ALL DRINK AND SEE HOW STUPID FIGHTS WE HAVE. love & Good Bye Atilla Karagözoğlu

i think the snake that you are talking about is the turkish soldier in kurdish mountain who are not able to fight i invite to come there if you have guts...

Abraham (a.s) Moshe (a.s) jesus (a.s) Muhammed (s.a.s) *** love Atilla Karagözoğlu

zmogus really your post is so pointless and without merit that i have to tell you silence would have been preferable.

One more example on how the zionists try hard to create a rift between all it's neighbours in the sole purpose of it's survival at any price. Sooner or later zionism will disapear like the retarded ottoman empire did before ...

...Hundreds of thousands of them,murdered by Indonesians... I like when you are angry, Peter. Because at that moment I know that (my post) I'm right. Turkey is one of the important allies for Israel among only three (the others are Jordan and Egypt) states in the muslims world. But you blew your relation with Turkey by violated its airspace and by your ambigious position on Armenian Issue of Genocide, exactly in time when you need Turkey the MOST. Don't you know that find a NEW FRIEND would be very difficult job at the moment?

Monuments for victims of Arab terror used to be erected in all locations in Israel where a citizen was murdered. During the second intifada, the monuments became increasingly smaller until finally, the government stopped putting up the monuments altogether. Apparently, reminders everywhere of more than a thousand dead Jews in just four years would be too much testimony to the failures of Olso and the inept leadership during that period. Every time a get on the bus to Kvar Saba at the Geha intersection in Petach Tikva, I think about Adva Fisher and three others who were murdered by a suicide bomber on December 25, 2003 ? at that very spot. No monument, no reminder. Just terrible memories that won?t go away.

thanks brother. I see we look like same Turkey and Israel we must fight back to people who try to divide our good, loyal friendship. Atilla Karagözoğlu

Papuans.Hundreds of thousands of them,murdered by Indonesians.

"Surely Turkey should now be willing to allow Israel to build a Grand Synagogue in the centre of Istanbul to honor the Jews that lived in Turkey and those that are still living there. Its called RECIPROCITY."-MJ Surely, I'm all for it. Right in the center. A Great Synagogue of 3 m high. Surely with the Israeli flag on the top. If anything is called RECIPROCITY in this planet.

The day we Palestinians got rid of the Turk was a Day to celebrate the end of Otoman Tyrany. It is sad to hear that the Wakf has allocated a piece of land to build a monument in the most valuable and sentimental part of Jerusalem for the decendants of these Otoman Tyrants. If Israel wants to reward the Turks, let Israel give them a piece of Land in West Jerusalem, but we Palestinians should not be part of it.

when I was a kid, I have seen many in my willage. in fact they dont bite. they just run too fast. little blind black snake. this is real. I am not joking. Atilla Karagözoğlu

LEARN INSANITY FROM TURKEY. WE ARE NOT ANGELS. BUT WE ARE OKEY. SOMEDAY, WE WILL CATCH GREAT MODERN DAYS ! AND THAT DAY WE WILL STILL BE STRONG ! LOVE ATİLLA KARAGÖZOĞLU

I heard haaretz is big newspaper. well it is. but ! just about racism. Atilla Karagözoğlu

...PLAY ON CHRISTIAN AND JEW WORLD ? THIS MAKE ME SAD. THE WEST PLAYING WITH FIRE. IN THE END, THE ARMENIANS WILL BE ON OUR HANDS ! NEXT LITTLE DOOR ??? THIS KIND OF ATTACKS ARE NOT GOOD FOR JEWISH HONOR. THERE WAS NEVER ARMENIAN GENOCIDE HAPPENED. I SEE THEY DREAM TO BE AS ISRAEL. WELL, ITS IMPOSSIBLE. LET ARMENIANS DRINK AND HAVE FUN. THEIR CHARACTERS ARE NOT FOR FIGHT. ONE DAY ! THERE WILL BE NO USA . AND THAT DAY ! YOUR GOOD TURKISH BROTHERS WILL REMEMBER THE ARMENIANS. YOU ALL KNOW HOW WE ARE OKEY PEOPLE. I TOLD YOU BEFORE, WE DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT IS RACISM. WELL, IF YOU HAVE ATTACH ON OUR BACK ! WHAT WE DO ? WE FIGHT BACK. THAT IS WHAT HAPENED. YOU JUST GABVE ME A HEADACHE NOW. *** I MEAN, IF THE ARMENIANS ARE WISE PEOPLE ! I WOULD MIND TO FACE ALL THESE PROBLEMS ! THEY ARE NOT GOOD IN MIND ! THAN HOW THEY ARE PLAYING ON WORLD ? WE STOPPED THEM ONE TIME ! WE CAN STOP THEM FOR LONGGGG !! ATİLLA KARAGÖZOĞLU

Everyone knows where I am, unlike certain overweight cowards in New Mexico. Sometimes I wonder why I am bothering to help your country defend such ingrates. Someday, Jews will once again be free to enjoy our Temple Mount and Moslems, will lose some of the countries they ethnically cleansed, possibly even Arabia itself and Mexico, will reconquer this region and Kill everyone like you in it. The Turks had no right to build Chele Kula, it was a crime against humanity and they never showed any remorse, what horrible monument to The Reconquista will be built in your state?

I agree. Turkey was good to the Jews. Much better than Arabs. And this would have been good for Turk/Israeli relations.

A nice test case from the Turk. Israel will surely needs to show that she is in control of the situation in the old city, in the other hand the Turk wants to remind the world that Israel is the occupier, especially when the US and Israel Lobby has betrayed her in the ARMENIAN ISSUE of GENOCIDE. Interesting to observe.

Dont ever come TO Turkey for holiday. okey ! you idiot haaretz operator. YOU LET ALL IDIOT POSTS ! FOR WHAT ? ATİLLA KARAGÖZOĞLU

Attacking Arabs as well as Turks on this subject is not appropriate here. First, the Arabs welcomed you as refugees when you fled the massacres 90 years ago, and allowed you to live and earn a living with them and "drink their water" and "share their plates" in peace. So there is no need for this ingratitude. Especially when we never hear any Armenian gratitude towards the Arabs (mostly moslems). Only attacks on Arabs and moslems from your side. Secondly, and over a period of 400 years of Ottoman occupation: hundreds of thousands of Arabs (maybe millions) died while fighting as soldiers in the Ottoman army. This fact is not recalled when present day Turks describe us Arabs as traitors rebelling against them in 1917 demanding freedom - while it was OK for the Young Turks officers to rebel against their Ottoman sultan. Thanks for your "gratitude".

WHAT A IMPORTANT THING, WHAT A IMPORTANT THING ?? WE DONT WANT ANYTHING. WHAT A IDIOT SUBJECT. SHAME ON MAN WHO MADE THAT WISH. IF WE WANT SOMETHING, WE TAKE ! WE DONT ASK. THAT WISH CANT COME FROM A GOOD TURK. *** LOOK AT THOSE POSTERS ! THEY ARE READY TO ATTACK TO TURKEY, ALWAYS. YOU LOSERS. GO OUT SIDE AND HAVE A LIFE. ATİLLA KARAGÖZOĞLU

Maureen Ann says you will never make it as a comedian. I say you use a fake Arab name, mimick Palestinians making crude fun of the way they pronounce some English words, and dump them all as hamas, and attack Islam and moslems as polygamous. You are not only FAKE and FILTHY GARBAGE, but also you are RACIST as well as SEXIST.

obligated to accept this proposal. If it does, fine, and if it does not that is also acceptable.

In Israel of course....! And "surtout" let us not forget the F...ing Boche of France who, gallantly, shipped via cattle cars,( curtesy of the french railroad ),family and friends right into their ovens. TO # 23, Hala of Michigan:" it would be the vilest insult to erect such ridiculous monument" Don't forget dear Hala, Olmert specialises in such " State of the art diplomacy". And, in all probability, upon his return from Annapolis, he will be landing in the TOWN of Israe......!

What more can one expect from PM dhimmi?

by the Jerusalem Municiple authorities. Opinions may come from other quarters, but it is for the city of Jerusalem to decide what will and what will not be constructed within it.

you will never make it as a comedian.

Surely Turkey should now be willing to allow Israel to build a Grand Synagogue in the centre of Istanbul to honor the Jews that lived in Turkey and those that are still living there. Its called RECIPROCITY.

And would Turkey allow the Arabs to erect a monument in Constantinople for the hundred of thousands of Arabs butchered by the Ottomans. In regard to Waqf people in Jerusalem they are bunch of Islamists who need to be educated about the sufferings of their grandfathers. We owe Turkey a big apology and many monuments.

YOU live in soccoro, new mexico(much to my chagrin)... so you really have NO say at all! now do you? i hope all's going well with your studies... and that you'll be graduating soon! so you can go back home and work for the saudis... and nm will finally be rid of you.

In May of 1453 the Ottoman Turks slaughtered the inhabitants of Constaninople who tried vainly to protect the bastion of Eastern Christendom. The great Haghia Sophia was desecrated and converted into a mosque. How about restoring the cathedral and making that a monument to all the Christians who were butchered by the Turks?

Turkey is no friend to Israel or`the`USA. Turkey is a friend to itself. This is just a payoff to Turkey for certain benefits it gives as it sees fit, and when it sees fit. In a crunch Turkey is Arab, and you know where their true sentiments lie. Israel, being weak, thinks it has to abide by this arrangement. I would think that Turkey will be given permission over 7 feet from the site because the 5ft would set a terrible precedent, and weaken Israel further. Everytime Israel cedes action regarding part of the Temple Mount it is worse than losing a war.

I hear the British National Party wants to build a large monument to remember all the brave Crusaders who died trying to liberate Jerusalem from the evil Muslims. Sure, a few thousand Jews were killed in the process, but who cares right?

Maureen Ann where do you get your information from. The Ottomans were murderers and who had no culture,unless you consider,rape,murder,and slavery culture.They turned the ME into a desert. Maureen Ann please spare us your intestinal gas. And stop thinking through your back passage.

There is a cemetary in the German Colony in Jerusalem, on Emek Refaim Street where lie the remains of brave Australian soldiers who helped to liberate Jerusalem from the Ottoman Empire. The site would be appropiate for a Monument for those heroes, possibly for the Ottoman defenders, but NOT on the Temple Mount !Such joint monuments were erected at the battle of Gallipoli, moving President Attaturk to form the modern Turkish Republic.

The turks belong in central asia. The turks have come westward & taken over ancient greece & Israel. Jews are middle eastern people that have had a tradition & presence in Israel for over 5,000 years... Why are we not allowed to have our own land??

Urgent need for a new wife, I'm down to only two, bromise you would be my most beloved third wife, do not cry of habbiness, I know you cannot wait to get here, or mabybe I should come to Bthurst, sounds like lovely blace you have there but it is much more fun here in Gaza these days, the skies are full of fireworks all night long. So blease, I am imbatient!

Turkey and the Ottoman Empire mistreated their Jewish minorities during the World Wra I aand World War II. 1914-18 they mistreated the Jerusalem Jewish residents with the help of the Mufti, during second World War they sacked all the estate and assets of their Jewish citizens. Being born in Istanbul I am still looking forward if Turkey will compensate for the assets they took from my father in 1943. Helas, now they want a monument to be in the hearth of the Jewish State. HUTZPAH They are guilty and ............

The Ottomans were ruthless to the Jews in Iraq during the 1st World War....they sent untrained and inexperienced young Jewish fathers/boys to die in the front lines....including my 26 year old father Moshe Shaul of blessed memory. If a Jewish family member tried to rescue them, all the members would be tortured and killed. No one got any information as to how my grandfather died or where he died. Shame and disgrace on the Turks...

The Turks themselves should be the first to forego any glorification or regret for the Ottoman Empire. Despite the art and splendor of the Ottomans, despite the glory of Suleiman the Magnificent, the empire cruelly subjugated millions of Christians. It would be the vilest of insults to erect such ridiculous monument.

before they come with any such demands to Israel. Monuments for Kurds, Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians and Romanians, Maronites in Central Constantinople won't hurt either. But not for Arabs please!

These are much more important battle sites of WW1 for the Ottomans than Jerusalem. Now let's see if the Arabs will have any of this! The Turks do not even want to ask for it.

The NILI groups actions led to a decision by the Ottoman Government to deport all Jews from Turkish occupied Palestine.It was only due to the intervention by the then U.S. Ambassador in Ankara, Henry Morgenthau Sr. that the expulsion of the entire Yishuv was avoided.

Urgent need for a new wife, I'm down to two only, bromise you would be my most beloved third wife, do not cry of habbiness, I know you cannot wait to get here, or mabybe I should come to Bthurst, sounds like lovely blace you have there but it is much more fun here in Gaza these days, the skies are full fireworks all night long. So blease, I am imbatient!

Memorials to all who were slaughtered AFTER WW11 during revenge killings. For example, those who perished during the bombing of Dresden... the Japanese who suffered during America's nuclear bomb experiments!

How nice with a Turkish flag being seen from every spot in Jerusalem over Temple Mount..Why not other countries flags as well..Then the compund can be rebuilt to a Union-Middle-East- Mount. Then there is just need for some elevators etc..

A Turkish foreign flag and statue in the holiest of cities to the Jewish people, absolute disgusting!

Israel needs what they got. Sorry Armenians. And you know, coincidentally... I have yet to meet an Evangelical Armenian.

The only monument built there should be a Jewish one like the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple over the dome of the rock.

Although I think the Temple Mount will only be further damaged and the construction will only offer more opportunities to erase any trace of Jewish history on th eTemple Mount, the existence of a monument seems to remind us that there was never a Palastinian people. The Ottoman empire didn't come up with the name Palistine. The name is rooted in the Romans conquest of the Holy Land when the name was changed to similarly erase a history of the Jewish people there.

and let us not forget the Luftwaffe pilots who so bravely risked their lives bombing London.

and let us not forget to build Japanese monuments on the Kokoda Trail where brave Japanese killed australians, and of course Darwin needs a monument to the brave Japanese airmen who bombed that northern Australian town. Japan has contributed so much to world culture and industry it would be a crying shame if they were left out.

If Olmert allows this thing to go ahead he will be bringing more shame to the city he was sadly once mayor of. The Ottaman Empire was no friend of the jews living their during the time they were running things. They are asking for a monument to remeber the dead of one empire that was bad for the jews during its war with another empire that was bad to the jews. It would be like Germany asking the British to build a monunt in London to dead Nazi pilots who died bombing London during the Battle of Britain. Syria, Lebanon and many other countries in the region were once colonies of the Otoman Empire but nobody is asking them for monuments and I can hardly see Assad saying yes if they wanted a monument in downtown Damascuss. Olmert dont play Mr Nice guy have some respect for the country and its people. The fact that Turkey is a friend of Israel today doesnt mean we should remeber the dead soilders who oppresed the jews before we made friends.