The Missed Opportunity

Arafat was a famous liar, events since November 1988 suggest no Palestinian interest in peace, and there's no clear mandate for peacemaking on the Palestinian side at this very moment. So, Arafat signed a piece of paper in 1988. He signed plenty of them. Proves nothing.

The Resolution 242 that the PLO readily accepted includes the clause about the right of return for the Palestinian refugees. May I ask who are these refugees? They are the original refugees from 1948, who moved out to allow the Arab armies to procede with the ethnic cleansing of Jews, and when these armies failed coulndn't return. And their status of refugees now includes their descendants and the descendants of their descendants. There are thousands of murderers whose hands are red with Jewish blood and millions of other Palestinians who overtly condoned the murder of the Israeli civilians. Puting these people inside Israel would be a major step for its self-destruction, Israel could never agree for such a thing, Arafat knew it perfectly well and so he accepted this Resolution. Man of peace, indeed!

the point Hala is that the true owners of yr country are not all dead and that you can leave and return the land to them but choose not to do so.....that makes you an accomplice to the crime of genocide and theft of their land......time is not relevant...they are not all dead.....the point is very relevant As for Israel...this is a conflict over land where arabs and jews dispute ownership....both have claims over thousands of years, both have M.E religions, languages and cultures....BIG DIFFERENCE English and the white european are foreign invaders to what is now called canada and usa

Yes, 17 years past since the Palestinians declared the free and independent state of Palestine, and 17 years past since the Palestinians, including the late Arafat recongized Israel. Recongition that continue to be lost on most Israelis and Jews, for they know if they accept or acknowledge Palestinian recongition it means Israel and beyond it Diaspora Jews will have to come to term with the Palestinians and recongize a Palestinian state side by side with Israel. Of course this very idea is so alien and contradict the Zionist dream of Greater Israel. That is why we had the first Intifada and had the second and will have the third and forth until Israel and beyond Jews have to accept the rights of Palestinians to their own home and state in Palestine. Not in Jordan or in Argentina or Russia as some suggests. The sooner Israel recongize a Palestinian state the sooner we will have peace. Of course the Occupation have to end and all those who committed crimes must be brought to justice.

I wonder why so many "Pal" Christians are leaving for Israel and the US, if the Arabs are so good to them. And why do the Arabs launch pogroms against the Christians?

Israel is a legal and legitimate state which the "Pals" want to destroy. This is the reason why the commit terrorist attacks against Israel.

By having a deal with the Palestineans, Israel not only legitimize the PA and the making of a Palestinean State in future (which is going to be made on Israeli lands), but at the same time force itself not to occupy these lands as now these are the Palestinean lands!

I know many Jews have the complex that they are better than the Gentiles, but just because this is a Jewish newspaper, this is the Internet. It's for the international community. And all the Nazi-Zionists call Muslims racists? Please, get over yourselves. If it wasn't for us Americans, Egypt would have wiped Israel out in 1973 while most of you were singing Hava Nagila during Yom Kippur. If it wasn't for our emergency shipment of weapons, Sadat would have been your Prime Minister, and Arafat may have had a chance to be your President :)

""Arafar is responsible for all acts of terror" - No he just started current terror campaign then it went out of his control."" The campaign didn't go out of Arafat's control because he was fueling and funding it all the time. He did it by using money of the international aid.

mr segal makes the usual western mistake, taking arafat's words seriously. in fact arafat made all the right sounds, but he never meant a word, but was pathologic liar who never stopped working for the annihilation of israel

"We are brothers and sisters aligned in the struggle for justice against the racist Zionist occupier" So you support Palestinian Muslim terrorist murder of women, children, innocents as has happened in restaurants, buses, schools in Israel and recently, weddings in Jordan? Do you have scripture to back up this moral position of yours?

Gabe, I think many are using the term "peace" as a euphemism for "separation and/or security". Not being Israeli, I don't think its my place to concern myself with internal Israeli politics. Whether the Palestinian territories become "Palestine" is irrelevant to me. The Palestinians repulsed me with their bloody intifada. However, I also believe that once the Palestinians have control of the Palestinian areas of Gaza and whatever they receive in the West Bank, the Palestinians will be subject to harsher global rebuke and censure when their terrorists make war with Israel, and the international community will withhold funds from them if Israel is forced to bomb their roads and infrastructure every couple of weeks.

I am israeli and i havn't been to israel in a long time but if it is true that Mahmood Abbas is ready to come to a deal then why is Israel not negotiating?i mean my parents allways told me that israel seized arab lands in wars that arabs started not make sure that they will negotiate!now that there is really someone we can talk to and not this donkey called Arafat then why is israel not negotiating now the real issues!!!

Jerome M Segal gives the game away. He quotes the UN resolution of the original partition. What the PLO meant by it was not a return to the borders of 1967 but back to the borders as they were given to the Jewish State on 29 November 1947. It would have suited Arafat. In those borders it would have been a matter of no time at all to liquidate the Jewish State and let the UN deal with the broken promiss of the Arabs. This is the same scenario that the PA would love to have now with the Hamas being an integral part of the Palestinian State. But the plan of 1986 would have made the Palestinian dream much easier than Abbs has it today. Let us not kid ourselves the only reason the Arabs in General and the Palestinian in particular will make peace with Israel will be the "Eyn Breyra". Some Arab States have already reached or are near that position the Palestinians are not yet there. In 1986 their dream was even larger than it is today.

its my birthright...and if you do not understand this...your on the wrong website...this being a Jewish Zionist newspapers website...In fact..tell us what`s your obsession here?

your neither Jewish nor Palestinian ...not even American...in other words your irrellevant to this discussion...

If only Israel can come to terms with leaving "Judea and Samaria"

Jesus shall return indeed. He is the Messiah. He unfortunately was turned over to the Romans because of a Jew. Jesus did not come to promote Judaism. He brought forth Christianity. Israel in the New Testament is not the current racist state. Israel is the Church! Get it right! I as a Palestinian Christian was never ever discriminated by Palestinian Muslims in Palestine. Christians have held noble positions in Palestinian politics from Mr. Tannous being the first Palestinian delegate to the UN, to the Chief Judge of Jerusalem before Israel being A GREEK ORTHODOX PALESTINIAN I.E. THEORDORE BARAMKI, etc and Hanan Ashrawi of course being the spokeswomen for Palestine. IT is the current racist entity known as Israel that has destroyed numerous Melkite, Orthodox, and Armenian CHurches in ANCIENT PALESTINE. God bless all Palestinians, Christians and Muslims alike. We are brothers and sisters aligned in the struggle for justice against the racist Zionist occupier. Take your Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwells and shove it! I'd rather be an athiest than follow their ideologies.

Sharon the man of "iron" just agreed to terms in gaza that went beyond the geneva accords which had Israli soldiers present at the crossings for up to 10 years now their are non.You are the one dream world if you dont understand that it is only a mtter if time beofre two states becomes a reality.Thats right Gabe1 thats the way it will be.

I didn't ask Ibrahim, to say that, not even Yitzhak, or Yakov. I don't have time for the board I'm quite busy in Africa taking soul counts. Thank you God

"There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed" - Why not? They do exist like New Yorkers, New Jersians or Amsterdamians. But does it make up a nation? What is sugnificant differense between Pal Arab and Jordanian or Syrian? Should we divide Israel into Ashkenazia and Sefardia or break it in smaller pieces to match structuraly 22 Arab states? "How can we return the occupied territories, there is nobody to return them to?" - Occupied territories may be returnd to Jordan or Egypt or even to emerged Palestinian state if they succeed in a state building not just in terror. "There is no partner for peace" - Partner for peace should disarm terrorists as a beginning of the process. And polls should indicate that Pal people are tired of terror, not just some corageous locals who confronted terrorists and lost theit lifes but majority of them. "Arafar is responsible for all acts of terror" - No he just started current terror campaign then it went out of his control. "Barak`s generous offer" - Barak's generosity went far beyond his first proposal. He agreed for the pres. Clinton's offer that gave Pals 1967 border in exchange for the "right of Return". This is really generous offer rejected by Arafat. "Israel can`t live without the settlements" - This is not even Sharon's point of view. Did you miss Gasa withdrawal? "Jewish blood is more precious than Palestinian blood" - Every state defends its citizens. If Pals whant to stop the bloodshed they can do it by stopping terrorist attaks. "It`s a sign of weakness to return land" - It is not an Israely myth. This is how Pal terrorists interpret it. Even Dahlan always saying that Gasa withdrawal is a Pal victory. Who's myth is it? "Sharon is King David" - Sharon vs. King David is more realistic than your recent comparison Arafat vs. Moses. "Tel Aviv is the Hub of the Universe..." - For religious people it is Jerusalem. However Italians think it is Rome, French think it is Paris etc. For Dutch people with no exotic qobsessions it is probably Amsterdam.

thats why solutions get imposed...and if theres no Partner to negotiate with..they just will drift to the Egypt , Jordanian integratin solution...which is what in fact is happening with Gaza currently...

It's all an Arab myth to steal the Jewish homeland.

Ibrahim, the following website sums up differences between the islamic and christian Jesus. You probably will know this better than me. But I urge you to stress these differences to your Arab brothers too, because for you as a christian you have nothing to find in islam and mecca. You can love your brothers, as Jesus wants, but cannot join them in their "the land belongs to Allah"-rhetoric. http://www.arabicbible.com/christian/jesus_christian_vs_islam.htm

Perhaps I missed something but what did Israel do? It yawned, and rightfully so, look at the PLO and how they have conducted themsleves, stealing from their own when they were given some recognition, and not thanking Israel for liberating Gaza from Egypt.The sewer that they live in, they made themselves...Let them make their own desret bloom. If Mexico were bombing the US would we accept them as a bona fide partner? Let them have a seaport and sell their products to their fellow Arab neighbors.Why should Isarel be rquired to purcahe theor goods??? Condi Rice made Iraq a mess now she wants to wreck Israel.

I just downloaded a whole bunch of Arab music by Farid El Atrash as well as about 4 Egyptian Drama series. I think you have a better chance of persuading these inanimate objects as you have of IBRAHIM,EL BIRAWI. Where is the genius of the Triumvirate Dorothy these days. Anyways you are flogging too many dead horses these days and none will ever get to the winners circle.Peretz, Two State Solution and Retreat.Dreams don't die easily but die they must.

Maybe I am naive or just plain ignorant of the facts. If it is well known that Abbas is not a man of peace why do people like Danite and ben Gurion think that it is worthwhile negotiating with him. And in the reverse if he will not prevent terror why would you give back territory and then build a wall and have massise amounts of soldiers guarding it. Am I having a problem with understanding the word "Peace" or the meaning of this word has changed and I missed that change. I just cringe when people twist the truth just to appease.

You are too remote from the teachings of the rabbi of Nazareth. The Jew who came first of all for the House of Israel and later asked his followers to go into the world. Jesus never had any aspiration to travel abroad himself, for his place was first of all with his people. He was critical, yes, but out of deep love for them. According to your bible he will return on the mount of Olives, and establish his kingdom, because from Zion the law will go forth. This is all biblical, not out of my crazy mind as you might think. I can understand your love for your arab brothers, you are too from Abraham. You are carrying his name. A promise for your people has been done by your God to Abraham. But it is not like the way God had in mind for Isac. Do not envy Isac, Ibrahim, for his responsibility is even greater than the one of Ishmail. Ibrahim, you could experience a much deeper faith by laying off these old prejudices. Get in touch with Arab christians who can help you with this. They are there and if you do not find them I can get in touch with them for you, if you want. You have to pray for Israel, as a christian you need to stand around Israel as watchmen. It's all in Paul's teachings as well. People like you can make a difference if you really open yourself for the rich message of the gospel. Now you are a christian you do not have anything to do with Mecca, the Omar Mosque, Muhammed, Arafat. Go away from it and focus on the messiah.

It would be amusing if were not so tragic, for people to excuse the present by pointing to the past. Have the Palestinians erred in their pursuit? Of course. Have the Israelis? Of course. But... so what? And no, it is not to late. The reality is that all reasonable people know what the general parameters of a peace will be. Evacuation from the occupied territories, with territorial exchanges agreed upon by both parties, either a divided Jerusalem or a shared Jerusalem, a functional renunciation of the Palestinian right of return, with some token repatriation. That's the deal, why not get down to business, and start hammering out the details. Otherwise, the past will indeed become the present. Ibrahim, still waiting.

On my way to my nightly loo see seesion I can say: 1) There can be no open transit between the West Bank, although it is legally Israel, and the rest of Israel because people wanting to rob and bomb. Not the hard working Palestinians but a group of terrorists who want all of Israel. Always wanted and ever will. 2)Israel wants to keep her Jewish identity therefore an Arab majority is out of the question. For this reason it has to grant the Palestinians an own state. ALthough I am in favor of a separation between church and state, in the case of Israel I am willing to make an exception (to a certain degree). The Arab world is big enough to let the Palestinians experience Arabhood. The roots of the Jews is also in this land. After centureis of expulsion I think the jews have the right to have their homeland. If they want to keep it jewish, or on the other hand, secular, that's find with me. Most of the Israelis want to preserve the jewish identity and tradition, although they call themselves secular. The Palestinians never were a people as such, we discussed this here a few weeks ago. They all come from different tribes and are a mix. They can only make a claim based upon religion, not on being from ancient Fillistine. In the light of what judaism is, namely with Zion as its heart (Zion is a broad entity, not just a hill, but the centre of judaism, and NOT primarily political)and the fact that islam is more attached to the dsert where it originates from, namely Mecca and Medina, I believe the land of Israel should stay as it is. Strangers (gentiles and other non-jewish semites) are welcome to stay but must accept this jewish identity. 3)Therefore: wanting a one state solution is like asking Morocco, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan etcetera to drop their islamic identity. Now, that we don't want, won't we? So leave Israel in peace be the jewish state of Israel.

I certainly agree that Abbas is not a man of peace. He hasn't made one peace overture towards Israel. What a disappointment. And as far as terrorist victim solidarity, ironic isn't it, that exported Palestinian terrorist tactics, targeting women and children, ball bearings and all, were used to butcher Palestinians in Jordan.

"God has no patience for self righteous people who cast judgement on others." Aside from any other argument being made here, exactly how are you the personal spokesman for God? NO ONE has the right to EVER claim they "know" what "God wants" - that is simply not the purview of mortals, PERIOD. GROW UP, people.

This is the fifth post I have sent to you over the past 3 days why I dont know. I wanted to ask , what if Jordan and Egypt dont want to take the territories, or if they did and the Palestinians woudnt agree what next?Do you have an alternative plan if your first choice doesnt work out? Also regarding andy murray he no doubt considers Canada 'Zionist occupied territory" also if you know what I mean. You do a great job on those Israel haters I like your posts, keep up the good work.Regards Danite

Emily, I wholly agree with your description of the Palestinians' demand concerning Palestinian refugees and their descendants. Such refugees and their descendants can only remain where they currently live (with their host countries giving those born there citizenship) or relocate to a new Palestinian state and not Israel if there is to be an agreement. Israel must be able to survive and prosper as a Jewish state. Any demand to the contrary would be unreasonable.

Okay buddy you believe what you want but the point about the christians was only one part of my points. I wont belabour the other issues as you simply refuse to acknowledge them and tell me in place of a coherent answer that "everything is screwed up". Thats okay Ibrahim I wont have to live the cost of denial. Hamas are reactionary totalitarians they spit on Jews and christians and democracy and Abbas and your rock music and the movie theatres even public fountains as they lead to "sculpture making" Have fun!Regards as usual Danite

I think that inadvertently you came up on something. The Turks gave Greece to the Greeks. The british gave back India and divided it with the Pakistanis the British gave back Rhodesia Portugal its colonies Spain its colonies. You are so perceptive but you missed one vital point. Let the Arabs give Judea and Samaria back to the Jews and leave just as the above have.

I am sorry to say it but reading all the recent events around the globe involving the Moslem people only leads me to believe that no matter what the Israeli's give to the Palestinians/Moslems it will never be enough to lead to a final and lasting peace. I hope I am wrong

"are USA, AUS, NZ, Canada landgrabs and should the whites return the land to the true owners?" Somebody, please, explain the point of this often used non-argument. So, since the gradual settling and colonizing of the above-mentioned lands took place, is that supposed to make it legal and just to settle and colonize lands to the detriment of the natives? Or is rich trying to make the point that since other nations settled and colonized and displaced natives, it is all right for all others to do so. But then that is saying that two wrongs make a right, so does that place Israel on a moral high ground? Why is it so conveniently forgotten that the acts of colonization aforementined took place hundreds of years ago, when it was legal to kill and appropriate others' lands by conquest, burn heretics at the stake, exile and persecute others for their religion? That is so not modern. Great Britain gave India back to the Indians in 1947; the French were ousted from North Africa in the 1960's. Colonization is illegal, yet Israel persists in this outdated and outlawed activity, while the true native owners of appropritated land are still alive and awaiting redress. So I ask again, what is the point in mentioning that, once upon a time, colonization was an accepted form of behavior and conveniently ignoring the very real fact that it is now utterly taboo?

The Muslim in Western countries want to do ethnic cleansing with us and destroy our civilization to impose theirs. If they cannot adapt to our civilization, they shouldn't come here. I don't have to clean my own house. It is them who are interlopers and they don't have to tell me what I have to do at my own home. I don't deny the right of anyone to have their own state. So I support Israel because there are people, the Neverlanders who don't recognise the Jews' right to have a state.

All maps of the Middle East for Palestinians and most Arabs do not include Israel. Children;s school books contain hate rhetoric towards Jews and denial of Israel. PA TV and media has near constant hate messages, cartoons, programming, articles, regarding the evil Jews and Israel. They still push the Protocols of Zion. Way to go working towards peace. Hardly.

And yet you reside in Toronto, Canada! If you live in a country, your loyalty should lie with that country, and not some other country. If your loyalty lies with Israel, then why don't you live there??? Its ok to "support" another country, but in this case you seem to think Israel is better than the country you live in now.

....The Palestinian and thier supporters delve in that netherworld of revisonist history, purloined arguements, set against a backdrop of sprits, fairy tails, delusions, illusions and based in mid-evil hatred. Their vision of a Palestine will be just another failed arab state catastrope, condemed to proverty by overpopulation, marked by moral corruption, and with internal violence by various gangs of thugs carving fiefdoms who then will try to export thier conjured world of supernatural conspircy theories and self proclaimed victomhood in martydom operations demanding more of this and that.

There is a simple solution from the declaration of the PA to the declaration of Human rights. Its realy simple: All Arabs should move away from Israel and replaced with Jews from the Arab world and vice versa. Israel must give compensation to the Pals that will agree. My understanding from Jewish and Arab sources is that the Arab-Israelis don't want to live under an Arab dictatorial rule. It's a dilema unless the compensation package is real. And the Saudis should pay for it. That is a real solution think about it.

by Michael Widlanski ? IMRA May 13, 2005 The Palestinian Authority's print and broadcast media launched a broad propaganda attack against Israel and the United States two days before the May 15 anniversary of the founding of Israel , a date the Palestinians mark as "Al-Nakba": "The Catastrophe." This propaganda campaigh comes less than two weeks before Abbas is set to visit Washington to seek and to proclaim his successess in promoting moderation and democracy. The campaign has included the following: -- Systematic accusations from Palestinian officials and the Palestinian media that Israel is planning attacks on Islamic holy sites such as the Al-Aqsa Mosque on Jerusalem's Temple Mount; -- Charges of Israel using radiation poisoning and new weapons on Palestinian travelers and demonstrators, respectively; -- Harsh portrayals of Israel and the United States in mosque speeches and the cartoons of newspapers-both controlled by the Palestinian Authority (PA); and -- Glorification of dead or escaped Palestinian terrorists.

Number of Minors Involved in Terrorism Rises Hatzofe October 19, 2005 A dramatic rise has been recorded since the beginning of 2005 in the number of minors who were recruited to carry out terror attacks, including suicide bombing missions. This assertion appears in a report that was published by the Intelligence and Terror Information Center. According to the report, the phenomenon is particularly widespread among Fatah activists in Nablus and demonstrates the difficulties the movement has encountered in recruiting and dispatching ?high quality? troops on missions of this type. In the wake of recent incidents at the Hawara roadblock, the parents and friends of one of the boys [recruited] spoke angrily about Fatah?s El-Aksa Martyrs Brigades. Meanwhile, activists for El-Aksa Martyrs Brigades in Nablus denied any responsibility for the incident and blamed Israel. The Palestinian Authority?with Abu Mazen?s knowledge?has taken no effective measures to date to put an end to having young boys sent on terrorist missions. Fatah generally denies its involvement in recruiting minors for terrorist missions because of public criticism. Two weeks ago, after a Palestinian boy tried to stab an IDF soldier at the Hawara roadblock south of Nablus, the movement issued a spurious statement denying that it had dispatched the boy on his terrorist mission and alleging that the IDF had forced the boy to blame them ?in order to malign the good name of the resistance.? The statement was published by the Palestinian news agency Maan last Wednesday.

I don't understand why it is imprtant to danite that you conform to her thinking.I understand where you are coming from and certainly have no problem with your positions as this is how Muslims see the situation. I do not want you to agree with my viewpoint. I want you to live your life happy and your compatriots in their own coountry Jordan. I want you to go where you are happy.You seem to be happy in Michigan and would probably be happier at this time in Paris but C'est la Vie. Your time to riot may come. in the meantime do not upset danite. Agree with her as this will keep her happy.

Danite, I hate to tell you that as a Christian Palestinian and having talked to many family memebers who live in Ramallah, the Israelis have been FAR WORSE to them than any Muslim Palestinian. I understand we Christians occupy a slightly higher position than Muslims in the Israeli hierarchy of opinion, but you can have it, brother. Muslims invite me to their homes, they offer dinner, they treat me like a human...far different than what I've experienced from those who enforce Israeli policy. I do know the truth...the situation is all screwed up and it is screwed up because of Israeli policy. Israeli insistence on controlling our lives and land...it's very simple.

Yaakov writes: "Does that also apply to the Germans who are highly represented in the sciences and mathematics? That they too have a culture and metality that is conducive to improving the human condition?" Answer: Contrary to what you imply, Germany has poor statistics for number of Nobel prices per capita, it ranks low in comparison to other European contries (10th place). Yaakov, do your homework before raising your hand.

Have we been into that sauce again or kissing the blarney stone too excessively. Or maybe a discussion with danite does that for you. Market forces decide except in China. And all that in your #68 is in response to the cost of Bread or Potatoes.

Tulip and Gina: I can understand that. However, I have a question for you. If it is "legally" part of Israel, why does Israel not see it as so? The people living on that land (who have been living onot hat land for centuries) are Israeli, and should have full rights as all Israelis. If it is "legally" Israel, then what you have there is a South Africa style apartheid regime. Tell me if that is the case. Regardless of what you think of the UN, and it has its flaws, it is still a World Body, and Israel is a member of it. Thus, the official maps should at least say disputed territories, and not be included as part of Israel. Regarding whether a Palestinian state would solve the problems - I personally think it'll go a long toward achieving that goal. The present is a lot different than the past. Pakistan is close to normalizing relations with Israel. Saudi Arabia just lifted its trade embargo on Israel. Jordan and Egypt have peace treaties with Israel. Kim: You have in the past: 1) called for ethnic cleansing of all Muslims in western countries, regardless of whether they've done anything wrong. Every chance you get, you try to defile Muslims and their religion by pointing out only the negatives. Maybe you should clean your own house first - your "holy men" are known for their "love" of little boys. 2) consistently denied the rights of the Palestinians to have their own state, by reverting to a sophomoric argument of "there WERE never any Palestinians, so there CAN never be" - essentially you deny the right of a Palestine state to exist. I'm sorry but you are the LAST person to talk about peace. Being such a racist, you're as much for peace as your regular home-grown hamas terrorist.

And Your Point?

I heard this same nonsense from an Egyptian taxi driver in Dubai. Funny how when an Israeli walks on the Temple Mount, it's a provocation and results in a full-blown Intifada. Yet, when three nations amassed ground troops, and heavy weapons and machinery on the borders of Israel, and we're heard "discussing" plans for an imminent attack on Israel, this is considered by Arabs as nothing out of the ordinary. "Oh horrible Jews for starting a war before we were ready to slaughter them. Oh the unfairness of life!" - 6-day war, 1967 Even 1982 was caused by the Pals who, maybe you have forgotten already, took over Southern Lebanon, to the chagrin of the Lebanese, and used it as a terror base against Israel. Increasing attacks daily AND threatening the local population. Interesting that the ONLY war you attribute to the Arabs (which they still celebrate as a victory today) is the cowardly attack during the Jewish Day of Atonement when the nation was in a 25-hour fast and praying. You say it got Israel thinking about peace...what it did was make Israel (and the world) realize that Arabs can stoop lower than was ever imagined. Unfortunately, events around the world show the stooping can go even lower.

Why would he show solidarity with the victims that he created. A facilitator is just as guilty as the perpetrator. 1st year law ;only it is called an accomplice.

lets face it , they never have been blessed with good,or even mildly average leadership.

I express my support to Rachel Ruth (#66), Yaakov Sullivan and other progressive contributors: the high number of Jewish Nobel laureates only shows the Nobel committee's institutional racism and moral bankruptcy. Even the relatively small number of Israeli prize winners exceeds the Arab ones, a complete outrage. The sexism of the Nobel committee has been pointed out by other contributors. A more subtle and often neglected item is the Nobel committee's ignoble discrimination based on IQ: People with low IQ are scandalously underrepresented on the lists. Now to the main issue: as these progressive readers have pointed out, a nation's contribution to culture has NOTHING to do with its right to exist. The contrary, if a nation produces only illiterate and aggressive individuals, it is a sign that it is being oppressed but has revolutionary potential. Such a nation should be given the largest possible support by the world community to impose its aspirations on degenerate nations that waste some of their energy on culture and science. For example, I think that within one or two generations, a legitimate debate will emerge about the right of the French to have their own state.

Inded, an Arab Palestinian people has never existed. Gaza, Judea and Samaria were not "Pals". Israel took them from Egypt and Jordan in 1967, in the course of a war the Arabs declared. Egypt and Jordan didn't want the territories back, so they belong to Israel. There are no partners for peace. Read the article. Where does it say they stopped terrorism? Yes, the Arabs are responsible for the acts of terror. It is them who have terrorist organizations funded by their authorities. Any offer to the "Pals" is generous, since they never had nothing and nobody has the obligation to give them things. Jewish blood as a whole is more precious than "Pal" blood as a whole, since the "Pals" have many terrorists.

and Jerusalems our united indivisible eternal capital....yayyyyyyyyy ...and you can`t bear it.....(you laso have no stake in it(being neither Jewish nor ``Palestinian``))

Wrong colours used in these maps. Light blue Israel....Dark brown Palestine (Gaza). As it would closely resemble the open sewer hole that is.

DEAR S, WOULD U CARE TO ELABORATE?

What does Abbas and the ?Pals? do to help Peretz? Sweet nothing. They have done nothing since 1993 other than murder Israelis and why would that change. Who is Peretz. Certainly not the Prime Minister just another in a long list of wannabee Messiahs for the Arabs that have spung from the Labour ranks. Do thr things you guys do best-Intifadas- and please do those in Paris, London,Madrid, Beijing, Delhi and Berlin. Israel has got your number.

Those territories were never "Pal".

This missed Israeli opportunities seems like it belongs with other Isreali myth and Fairy Tales. "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed" "How can we return the occupied territories, there is nobody to return them to?" "There is no partner for peace" "Arafar is responsible for all acts of terror" Barak's generous offer Israel can't live without the settlements Jewish blood is more precious than Palestinian blood It's a sign of weakness to return land Sharon is King David Tel Aviv is the Hub of the Universe... Dutch P.S. Please add as you wish

point is that we jews are a good people and stand for good and progress ...... and i'm pointing that out to our enemies cos it infuriates them because deep down they know we represent good and that israel is part of that goodness and that they represent perversion, hypocrisy and ignorance in their constant demonisation of the israel (ie the jewish people)...if israel wasnt jewish they'd have no interest in her whatsover....

Does that also apply to the Germans who are highly represented in the sciences and mathematics? That they too have a culture and metality that is conducive to improving the human condition?

thanks

usa, canada, aus, nz are colonialist states where white europeans invaded and imposed their will. Their languages, religions and cultures are foreign...as are the names imposed on the territories. None of which applies to israel....which on the other hand is where the population speak hebrew, live by the jewish calendar, where judaism is the religion......all of which are M.Eastern As for the aboriginals and indians living in apartheid reservations ....go tell them that they are equals....for their to be justice, the white man needs to leave period.

You can not be serious....

The Palestinians are farther away from having a state than they have ever been. There simply aren't the conditions necessary for having a state and it may take a generation or two to build up that kind of infrastructure. In the meantime, the world is growing tired of sending money to the PA without proof of development. Transfering money to Switzerland, as Arafat did with Canadian financial aid, simply isn't nation building.

there will always remain hope and opportunities, but allow me to express serious doubts re. your 1-state solution.you would be correct if both sides had no religious fanatics and extremists wishing to beat the other completely in short or long term. unfortunately, it's not the case. to take an extreme example, imagine just one second a jewish relgious family and a hamas affiliated palestinian family living side by side in the same street with no walls and soldiers between them. do you get the picture ?

"The PLO`s unrelenting demand that all Palestinian refugees and their descendants be admitted to Israel is nothing less than a demand that Israel take receipt of a trojan horse to its demise." Forget the trojan horse thing. It is an attack on Israel's right to self-determination. If the Palestinians want their own state and they want Jews out of the territory that comprises that state then by all means, claim a right to return to their own state but don't make any claims on Israeli sovereignity.

Are you advocating a military takeover of Israel if they do not give in to your proud demands.? What are you going to do if the Israelis say they are proud as well and want their rights.?

"They include the occupied/disputed territories as part of Israel." Until the Palestinians accept a peace treaty with Israel, and "Palestine" becomes a recognized country, this is as it should be. Israel is recognized by the United Nations as a country. "Palestine" is not yet a country.

'The only viable solution to the Israeli- Palestinian conflict remains the creation of a secular democratic state in historical Palestine between the Mediterranean and the Jordan river'. Would you care to share with us what the heck is 'historic Palestine'?

"If I remember correctly, this poll was done in England not EU, and by the way, the same people selected London as one the worst places to live. So much for the polls." Also, remember, as soon as the Gaza terrorist entity allowed Hamas their hate rallies, and Hamas killed Palestinians with their own missiles, they fired off dozens at Israel. Who did the EU blame? The entire global community blamed the Palestinians. The same will happen once the West Bank terrorist entity is fully defined.

Here you are - Maps with Palestinian territories as agreed in negotiations. http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/Israel+within+Boundaries+and+Ceasefire+Lines+-+200.htm http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/Judea+and+Samaria+showing+Palestinian+Authority+Ar.htm

It is also the maps of the PA, the maps in textbooks, the textbooks, the sermons and speaches of the "Pal" clerics and leaders; the Charters of Fatah, hams, pigs, etc., etc.

I hope Abbas sees things differently than you on the gangs because ifyou were in charge the boat would sink, you dont seem to want to understand thats okay,it will be your headache more than anything else. as for the stinging stuff try again, but the fact is if the arabs had not forced Israels hand in 67 their would be no Israeli occupation there would only Jordanian occuaption which you seem no to have a problem with. Well we live on different planets hopefully they wont collide or the sun we share goes super nova. You are not willing to acknowledge are you? Still think you can control hamas when the time is right and in the meantime keep them in reserve "if needed" many have made your mistake trying to use violent totalitarian reactionaries for "progreesive" or other ends. Hamas loves guys like you Ibrahim you keep what should be their sinking ship afloat just long enough to get refitted and ready for action. As long as Israel isnt there and has a nice big wall around it, you guys can "party down" as much as you want. I am sure Israel will let in the Palestinian christian refugees when the Hamas morality squads start having a look at what you supsect westernised christians are up to.Ill write a letter to the PM saying that I know you and vouch for you okay? Regards Ibrahim you know the truth but you wont say it, thats how Hamas wins. Danite

You say :"We are waiting since December 1988 but in vain mainly because USA was never and will not be a honest agent between the concerned parties". Has it ever crossed your mind maybe, just maybe, you don't deserve what you are waiting for? or You are waiting for something that does not belong to you? Islam does not own the world, you know !!!

The soldiers who testified against Captain R were inventing facts to get rid of their commander. And Captian R is not even Jewish but a Druze.Many of the incidents of IDF soldiers and some officers have been committed by Druze and Beduin soldiers serving in IDF. IDF is taking action against unjustified acts against Palestinians. But of there are exonerating circumstances the justice prevails. What will you protest Rob? the mistaken judgment of Captain R or his release?

"Give us all the land and Jerusalem, and return all refugees, and.... so we can have peace" Can any of you people please tell me what would the Arab conditions for peace be, if G-d forbid they had won 1948, 1967, or any other war against Israel? would the first borns for 100 generations have been eough?

Palestine Day is like Goofy Day at Disneyland. There was no Palestine. There is no Palestine. There should never be a Palestine.

The UN made a proposal in 1948 and it was refused by the Arab world. King Hussein gave up the West Bank as his territory in, I believe, the 80's. Despite what the UN says, legally it is Israel now. That doesn't mean it would be wise to finally make a deal. I am not against a Palestinian state, but I know one thing: it won't solve the problem. 10-20 years after the establishment of Palestine there will be trouble again, for we all know what they want: all of the land. For Al HAzar et al it does not even belong to the Palestinians, but to Allah.

You dont always get what you want. Accepting disapointment is part of a growing state. That does not mean accepting the bone that is thrown to a dog, but knowing that what you will lose by being intransigent will cost you more than you would have gained. Palestinians want it all, but fact is they wont get it all. In fact truth be told even if they go to 1948 borders, towns and villages that are in the PA state now will have to come back to ISrael. This is about 30% land area of the PA state. Ya got to know when to hold, and know when to fold, lest the opportunity is missed. Which seems to be a failing of the PA, they know not when to fold em.

To Sami and all others that beleive "The only viable solution to the Israeli- Palestinian conflict remains the creation of a secular democratic state in historical Palestine between the Mediterranean and the Jordan river where all citizens enjoy equal rights under the law irrespect of religion, race, colour and sex". See my dear friend, the problem is that in that "one" country, there must be a coherent policy to work, for example, g-d forbid if there is another 9/11, the country must decide whether to pass on sweets and enjoy, or symphetize with the victims, or when a lunatic blows himself up killing women and children would the official policy be to cheer the bombing or condemn it, or should they burn and destroy the green houses, or enjoy the economic advantages of having it, or ..... Catch my drift?

that is truely the dumbest and most ignorant thing anyone can say......congrats.

No Yaakov, your conclusions are totally wrong. You say "1.) The Jews are the smartest people on the planet and we should never forget it." I would say, the Jewish mentality and culture is obviously conductive in producing individuals that improve human conditions. Yous say "2.) Because there are more Jewish Nobel Laureates than Arab, there should be no Palestinian state." The statistics are indicative of inferiority of Islamic culture in this particular area of human endeavor.

If you`re going to use Arafat`s kafiah, or Jordan`s maps in *some* (private) hotels, as proof that Arabs consider Israel as part of Palestine, then what do you have to say about the maps on the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs website? They include the occupied/disputed territories as part of Israel. Those teritories ARE under Israeli control at this moment, therefore, the Israeli maps are accurate, when and if, Pals get any of it, then it will be time to change those. But arabs maps without Israel is just a dream and not real, this is the difference, showing reality vs. showing wishful thinking and hateful dreams. Do u see the difference?

"The EU citizens, when polled, considered Israel, the Jewish State, the greatest threat to world peace." If I remember correctly, this poll was done in England not EU, and by the way, the same people selected London as one the worst places to live. So much for the polls. Can you imagine what the German people would have said if polled during 1930's? does that mean anything?

Danite, I sent you a stinging criticism of some of the stuff you wrote yesterday, but it never posted. Calling the occupation "self created" is a bit off the wall. Anyway, what can the Palestinians do to shore up Peretz? Answer: Not alot, directly. They need to get their shist together first and foremost. They need to start making progress building up Gaza from the ground up. We need the U.S. to continue to apply PRESSURE on Israel to insure they don't renig on the sea port and safe passage, the karni crossing and Rafeh border. Danite, if Israel drags her feet on these core issues related to Gaza, no progress can possibly be made. In theory, I would like to the see 100,000 Palestinians march to the Kalendia Checkpoint, with white flags and peace songs, and chant PEACE for a few hours. I would like to see Hamas and I.J. in particular rescind this nonesense about destroying the Jewish State. It is very rare to hear them say this nonesense anyway, but they never quite get the nerve up to say clearly: we would accept the West Bank and Gaza in exchange for permant peace and reconcilliation.... In terms of disarming gangs....it's not at all feasible until we see progress in the area of infrastructure building, judicial reform and first and foremost: AN END TO ISRAELI SETTLEMENT EXPANSION... Have a good one- Ibrahim

From the same place his idea to let the market decide what the minimum wage should be as the way to joy and happiness for all.Danite

I think it is interesting timing becuase of the release of Captain R going scott free. I am Jewish but I would protest this as a Jew and I wouldn't blame them if the Palastinan's did the same.

The PLO adopted the two state solution in 1988 against the wishes of the majority of Palestinians. 17 years on, most people who opposed that resolution have been vindicated. The only viable solution to the Israeli- Palestinian conflict remains the creation of a secular democratic state in historical Palestine between the Mediterranean and the Jordan river where all citizens enjoy equal rights under the law irrespect of religion, race, colour and sex. This has always been and will remain the only durable solution. Anything else is just a waste of time.

If you're going to use Arafat's kafiah, or Jordan's maps in *some* (private) hotels, as proof that Arabs consider Israel as part of Palestine, then what do you have to say about the maps on the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs website? They include the occupied/disputed territories as part of Israel.

"I told it here before but in 2004 the map of Israel in some of Jordan's major hotels is shown as ........Palestine, 100%. Do we have a peace treaty?" It's amazing --- I was reading some article which stated that currently Jordan is the most anti-semitic of all the Arab nations. (Jordanian Palestinians) But at least Jordan actively imprisons its terrorists. If I were an Israeli, I'd much prefer the security over platitudes of peace.

Thank you Massoud, my sentiments exactly. What opportunity has Iran, Iraq, Syria and Co., the true ?peace makers?, have ever missed? There is one and only one opportunity they want for peace, Israel driven into the sea. I do not recall that opportunity being presented so there is nothing missed there. Oh, I see there is an opportunity to ?strengthen? Abbas with Rafah border deal and easing the restriction of movement. I wonder how long it is going to take blood thirsty Hamas, IJ and Co. to jump on those opportunities to execute some of their plans in the works. Isn?t that what usually follows the restriction of movement, elimination of check points and Palestinians controlling their real estate opportunities?

"This is not what is being said until today on PLO TV where they claim everything including Tel Aviv and Haifa" I would consider Abbas a man of peace if he'd only order a complete halt to the hate speech on Palestinian tv. Peace overtures towards Israel could be cultivated through the media. Abbas demonstrated incredible solidarity with the mourning victims affected by Jordan's terrorist butchery. It's a shame that the man doesn't have the foresight or the moral courage to demonstrate solidarity with any of Israel's victims of terrorism.

you must have missed all the historical books written in the last 30 years. But the best answer to your question is given by the homepage of the israel ministry of foreign affairs where it can be clearly read that the war of 1956, 1967 and 1982 were started by Israel! http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/History+of+Israel/HISTORY-%20The%20State%20of%20Israel By the way: have a look on the maps on this page. The west bank and Gaza are included in the state of Israel, this also violates the international laws.

Just think where the Palestinians would be had the Arabs accepted their own state back in 47/48 and 1967.

Can you please tell me what history books you learned those lies from?!!? ANY logical and knlowledgable person will tell you the obvious that israel defended itself is every single war, whether it was 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982, or the current intifada the arabs planned for months before starting it by throwing stones at jews praying. If you would indulge me and tell me exactly how YOU think the 1967 war and 1956 wars began i would appreciate it to learn what exactly you think and for the comedic aspect as well. Much appreciated. Shimon

Yes, it's not surprising that Jordan's map includes Israel as part of Palestine. And Jordan is a "Peace Partner." You should look at the Palestinian textbooks, you'll find the same maps. They neglect Israel's existence and have clear territorial ambitions, all of Israel! Until we see reforms in their education system, we can't take them seriously. They are teaching false geography.

Now that Labor has new leadership in Mr. Peretz may I start to have hope for the two state solution to progress once again? With so much dissappointment and despair from both sides of this issue I am afraid to have hope. Can our trust ever be renewed after so much violence and death? I can't help but to still have a glimmer of hope in my heart that the long suffering of Israel and the PA may be nearing its end. Both people deserve some peace and a normal life or at least the chance to try once more.

I told it here before but in 2004 the map of Israel in some of Jordan's major hotels is shown as ........Palestine, 100%. Do we have a peace treaty?

"The EU citizens, when polled, considered Israel, the Jewish State, the greatest threat to world peace". so be it, ibrahim. i prefer israel to be perceived as a threat than a victim. it'll always remind me the old joke of the german jew who back in the 1930-s was reading german propaganda newspapers because, as opposed to the english and french newspapers, describing us as the poor vicims, the nazi press kept saying that we jews are controlling the world etc. etc.

A Dutch guy made a study on Arafat and wrote a thesis about it at the university. In his book we see several pictures with this specific shape of the kafiah, on one of them you can see Arafat carefully puttinng it this way. I't's so funny and obvious.

Guys, I knew you would be upset about Arafat's kafiah. I wanted to tickle you a bit to wake you up from your boring stances. I have a picture in fornt of me of Arafat, his kafiah carefully wrapped in the shape of Israel, not just the West Bank.

Then you are against the "Pals" plans of destroying Israel, aren't you? Why don't you protest the aim of the "Pals"? They should include Israel in their maps and not write "occupied Palestine" instead. I they should stop teaching their children it. This is most condemnable, because they also brainwash the children into blowing themselves up.

1.) The Jews are the smartest people on the planet and we should never forget it. 2.) Because there are more Jewish Nobel Laureates than Arab, there should be no Palestinian state. Where the hell did this connexion come from!? Fagin?

Shimon, enough with the silly propaganda. Israel started the 1967 war, and they started the 1982 war and they started the 1956 war. Egypt started the 1973 war...I'll give you that one. The 1973 war is what got Israel finally thinking about peace with Egypt. Ibrahim

Rich, what exactly is your point? Do you have one? If so, please state it, and stop engaging in innuendo that is meaningless in any case. A very quick scan of the listing of Nobel Laureates showed me roughly 20 women out of total of hundreds of individuals, yet we are 50 percent of the population. Your list, devoid of any context, is just as meaningless.

Arafat himself has openly, indeed defiantly, been telling the world time after time what his plan for Israel is. That plan is no chimera, but a practical strategic objective. It was not created by Arafat. It was first announced by the spokesmen of the Arab states when, at the United Nations in 1947, they opposed the recognition of a Jewish state - even within indefensible borders. They followed up in 1948 by making war in order to abort its birth. Then, in 1967, the destruction of Israel (without Judea, Samaria, Gaza, the Golan and Sinai) was the declared aim of the Arab invasion, and the dismemberment of the Jewish state is the centerpiece of the Palestinian Covenant. The game plan for achieving that end has even been aired frequently by Arafat. It is the "policy of phases." It could be called the "salami" process. And it is perfectly rational to understand that Barak's offer of near-complete surrender was not enough for Arafat: there are "phases" still not reached, and goals still unachieved. A Palestinian state (with Jerusalem exclusively as its capital) has not been promised, and Israel has not agreed to let the so-called "refugees" flood its cities. If he were to underwrite peace with those hurdles not overcome, he would lose control of his own people. Moreover, Arafat knew what he was doing. By not signing, he left the door open to new negotiations. The prelude to negotiations is, as usual, killing Jews - intifada. Do you not hear how he is being urged by Israeli leaders now to stop terror and "come back to the negotiating table"? And are not the Americans doing their best to get Israel to negotiate even if the terror is only "reduced"? Indeed more light on U.S. behavior and policy after Oslo has been shed by our Ross in an interview in the "Australian Jewish Review," June 2001. http://www.netanyahu.org/denroscon.html

the palestinians are the masters of lost opportunities nothing is going to change and only the brain dead would ever imagine that the left will take power and abbas will disarm the terrorists jerusalem is ours and the wall continues uninterupted - the bleaters,the whiners the apologists are here in force - they never got anywhere time is on ourside - the palestinians will have to face their own demons before anything can happen not for years will anything change bm

Joe, I looked at the map from the official Palestinian web site. It shows quite clearly what I have been saying: We overwhelmingly support a comprimise that places the state of Palestine in the Gaza and West Bank...all the yellow shit is yours, bud. So stop with the silly excuses. Ibrahim

I am glad see you are back in fine fighting form today. On the question of missed opportunites I was wondering what your thoughts were on how can Palestinians and Abbas do to add momentum to Peretz and help in the elections he has to face as you call on israel to do for Abbas in the elections he has to face.I wonder if you see the need for symbiosis here , if so will you call for it, and reject passivity and denial with the understanding that unless Labor gets into power you are going to suffer the consequences for more time to come.Peretz who wants go right to final staus agrements is right up your alley, are you going to at least shine a light on the muggers to make them shy away so he can make in and out? Danite

If they really wanted their state, why did they leave Camp David? I wonder why the article doesn't mention it?

"From your point of view, which is the territory of "Palestine"? " Kim, Clearly, the land of Palestine comprises the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with only minor modifications subject to mutual acceptance. It's not perfect for either side, but it certainly offers both sides the chance of permanent peace, dignity and cover to face all the rejectionists in their midsts. Ibrahim

This article might have been considerred "insughtful", if it was done back in 1988-1989, when we did not know the true nature of Arafat and his clan, but now, it is really a joke. Missed opprtunity for what? trusting Arafat? you must be kidding. The problem is that everyone says they want "Peace", but no one is willing to define what they mean by peace. From everything that we know now, and is reflected in Khalid and his ilk's p[ostings, in Arab eyes, peace means give them all the land, bring everyone and their uncle that claim to be Palestinian and home them in Tel-Aviv, give them Jerusalem that they really have no historic bonding to and no right to at all, let them govern the country, name all the streets after homocide bombers, apologize the arab world for not wanting to be "dhummis", ask every arab what they want and give it to them, and they will make a speech about peace, and continue blowing themselves just for the fun of it, and call it peace. If this is peace , Israel does not really need it, it is much more secure to stay in the state of war, at least this way, jews have athe means to defend themselves, The plan that Arafat and Pals call "Peace", is really destruction of state of Israel, and we are saying we missed an opportunity to achieve peace?

"The EU citizens, when polled, considered Israel, the Jewish State, the greatest threat to world peace." Well its a good thing nobody cares what anyone is the overly baised and historically anti-semitic EU has to say. But if you asked an unbiased and normal country like America and the american people (which you are a part of, no?), they would be behind israel, which is why ocngress has been behind israel every time.

Khalid, your arguments are becoming outdated and boring. "Return us the stolen land" and "Stop raping us" are nothing more than slogans. You don't have any realistic solutions to the problems. You can't deal with today's reality. Slogans are meaningless until the PA show their intentions with actions.

alex, if you had any knowledge of history, you would obvioulsy know that israel was GIVEN their country. They were leglally in israel to begin with and they were even in the west bank before the arabs took THEM over in 1948. Then, the ARABS, not sirael, started EVERY war and lost. Israel got land purely defensively and by law, they have every right to it

Rich, what exactly is your point? Do you have one? If so, please state it, and stop engaging in innuendo that is meaningless in any case. A very quick scan of the listing of Nobel Laureates showed me roughly 20 women out of total of hundreds of individuals, yet we are 50 percent of the population. Your list, devoid of any context, is just as meaningless.

Actually, there are about 175 Jewish Nobel Prize winners. It's a long list.

So the PLO finally recognized Israel's right to exist after 40 years of rejecting the idea and losing several battles against Israel. They were hopeless to defeat Israel, so they finally seeked a new alternative. They recognized a state's right to exist, what's the big deal? this is a basic right that everyone has. The Pals rejected an offer for a state in 1947. Besides saying a few words, the PLO didn't really have any authority, so the declaration was useless.

"Can i just walk into new york, start a fight with police, "WIN", and proclaim a country there too?!?" With just one change this is one of the best definition of Zionism I ever read!

There is not really a 2 state solution but a 3 state solution.Palestine captured by Britain from Turkey in 1917(during the First World War)included Eastern Palestine(the estern side of the River Jordan) now renamed Jordan.This is over 80% of Palestine but no-one disputes it as it not Jewish. Such are the ideological realities of the world.

Besides they rejected that right in 1949.

rich, you put igor tamm as jew, he was not, he was a german, but with him got nobel price 2 jews, frank and cherenkov, a lot of russian phisisists are jewish, i. e. basov, prokhorov - nobel prices of 64 etc.

From your point of view, which is the territory of "Palestine"?

The year 1988 saw the PLO in a very difficult political situation. The First Intifada started in December 1987, being run by LOCAL people under newly grown leaders. The PLO was far from the scene, in Tunis, following its ejection from Lebanon. It was becoming irrelevant. In order to become relevant again, the PLO finally agreed to give up on terror, recognize Israel's right to exist, and enter political discussions with the US. It also declare independence, a meaningless step since it controlled no territory, but a step that had good PR value with the Palestinian population under occupation. Israel didn't miss much of an opportunity. Due to US pressure on the Shamir government, Israel participated in the 1991 Madrid peace conference with all Arab neighbors (including the Pals). After Labor came to power in 1992, the Oslo negotiations began. All this took place within a short few years after 1988. Where is the missed opportunity here? It is better to ask why Oslo has failed. At least mistakes could be avoided in the ongoing peace process.

rich, you did omit a lot of jewish nobel winners, in phisics for example hertz for radio and another one, for medicine, second price for warburg-1944, you mention 1931 only, inventor of tomography etc, a lot. I did not know that medavar was arab, are you shure?

The PLO unilaterally decided to stop terrorism but it didn't. And did they ask Jordan for the territory that should have been Palestine, by the partition plan of 1947?

According to the article, during the first intifada, the PLO unilaterally decided to accept Israel and stop terrorism. Did they put it into practice? They didn?t accept the partition of 1947, so they declared war on Israel, and in 1988 this war didn?t have to have any consequences for them. Besides if they accepted the partition of 1947, shouldn?t they ask Jordan for the territories it annexed in 1948?

are you kidding?! They were on land that didnt belong to them anymore becuase of a war they started and lost and just proclaimed it to be theres!! Can i just walk into new york, start a fight with police, lose, and proclaim a country there too?!?

"Sorry bud, for all the pain we caused you. You`ve caused us much more" Ibrhaim, any and all pain the arabs got they caused themselves. Stop being in the habit of blaming everything on others. Learn from the idiocy of people like Khalid and dont follow him. The checkpings werent bad and there were no curfews or walls when arabs werent being terrorists. Any and all israeli missions to kill terrorists are cuased becuase these terrorists have killed or planned the killing of many innocent people. Any fighting back and making up nonsense about retaliation for killing terrorits is insane. The arabs have caused just about every ahrdship they ever had since 67 when they started the war until now and probably will continue to for a long time.

There was no stolen land. And besides, why dont you understand that in ANY eace agreement, two sides have to compromise!!! Do you even know the meaning of the word?!? It doesnt mean resort to terrorism, that much you should learn

Hallo rich, I am very happy to read that also you are for the one-state solution as USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand are one-state with equal right for everybody!

Yes, you are right Johannes. Freedom is a fundamental right for Palestinians. Please don't forget though that it is a fundamental right for Israelis too and let's not forget also that it was the Arab world who sought to deprive Israel of freedom and its right to exist in 1948 when a combined Arab army attempted to 'drive the Jews into the sea.' Palestine could already be a country by now but for over 57 years has chosen Israel's annihilation above its own aims for independence. Instead of blaming Israel all the time and engaging in pathetic suicide missions, Palestinians need to look at their own mistakes and take the blame. By the way, I like how you manage to avoid mentioning the fact that Jordan occupied the West Bank before the 1967 war. Why not criticize Jordan you hypocrite? Oh I'm forgetting, Israel is a great target to vent one's anger these days.

Details say a lot about someone. The details what I saw with Arafat and all his militant groups are very clear.

Who disputes the long term Jewish contributions to western society? I haven't heard anyone dispute this. Your silly list is childish at best... What is clear, however, is that Israel is not a force of peace in the world, quite the contrary. The EU citizens, when polled, considered Israel, the Jewish State, the greatest threat to world peace.

here we find fagin's analysis of segal's article summed up with the following descriptive terms: "crap", "infantile" and "for the birds". Profound, isnt it?

I hadnt noticed the kafiah. Arafat also used to say that Jordan was Palestine, until black september.I wonder if his kafiah was even bigger back then?

Enough said. You said it all. You are the proof in the pudding. It's all lies, myths, leftists. Meanwhile this pace306 is the proof of the sentiment that has prevented israel from moving toward peace. Land over peace anytime and pace308 is proud to admit it. Hence, the truth. That's not a joke. the pace 308 of the world mean what they say and it sure aint peaceful.

I especially loved this part of the "declaration": "...on ground of race, religion, color or sex, and will allow no departure from Palestine's age-old spritual and civilizational heritage of tolerance and religious co-existence." In order to have a heritage of tolerance and religious co-existence you must first exercise it in history. So far...a massive failure. Unless you're Muslim and from the right clan, you will have a very different view of the "tolerant Palestinian".

So what do you say, Avi? - What should an Israeli make of this map, presented in an official Palestinian web site? http://www.pcbs.org/pal_map.aspx

I'm curious if you noticed how conflicting you statements to Israelis are compared to the Palestinian platform...or in other words: how hypocritical you sound. "...nonesense about Palestinians needing to permanently suffer because of past mistakes..." If you call wanting the destruction of another group of people and their State as a "mistake", or are you referring to the 5 major wars that were a major failure. Either way, what are Pals and all Arabs asking for? For Israel to reverse any gains it made during it's fight against aggressive neighbors and give back everything. So, Israel must "pay" for its "mistakes" (even more, because the Pals have demanded major compensation on top of everything else) while the Pals go back to the first position they started from, essentially losing nothing for the harm they caused. " It requires comprimise. " And part of that compromise is for the Pals to honor their commitment to Israel's right to exist. Handing out maps and T-shirts and logos having the State of Israel shown as one Pal State, or having daily broadcasts of poisonous rhetoric against Israel is NOT what the Pals agreed to (and signed for that matter) inthe past. I can only assume that you work with different standards when dealing with the Pals, as opposed to the Israelis.

And of course we all know that a nations independence and its right to that independence are dependent on the number of Nobel Prizes those nationals have managed to bag. Also interesting to observe that the overwhelming majority of Jews awarded the prize were from the diaspora.

I did not know or care to know, That we needed the Palestinians to reconize Israel as a state or to have their permission to live. Who cares about what they say, every word that comes out of their mouth is a lie.

Yes, and Arafat probably had the map of historic palestine printed all over his underwear as well. Have you ever seen an Israeli map that excludes the West Bank and Gaza Strip? Really. Think hard and long. In fact I challenge either of you to find an official Israeli map that excludes the West Bank an Gaza strip. For your information, below is a snapshot of what the Israeli ministry of foreign affairs website considers to be the borders of "Israel". Please notice it has no reference whatsoever to Palestine/PA/Occupied territories/Shtachim or whatever you great-deniers like to call my country. Also notice that the total area they quote includes the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Hypocrisy stinks. ------------------------------- "Its western border is the Mediterranean Sea. To the north it is bound by Lebanon and Syria, to the east by Jordan and to the south by the Red Sea and Egypt. Long and narrow in shape, Israel is about 290 miles (470 km.) long and 85 miles (135 km.) across at its widest point. Its total area is 22,145 sq km, of which 21,671 sq km is land area.

... bra and a garter belt, that would mean he wanted France?

Proud? Perhaps, even too much to move beyond their own feeling of entitlement. Diginified? Now that is where you lost me. I have hardly seen one dignified thing these Pals have done thus far in the region. I point to an incident yesterday where teenage Palestinian boys (illegla workers in Jerusalem) decided to throw rocks into a....KINDERGARTEN!! Is this your dignified race of people, Khalid?? Maybe they heard a 5-year old mutter something offensive against Islam, or aim a toy gun at them. I think a lesson in "Being Human 101" is in order here.

'So stop this nonesense about Palestinians needing to permanently suffer because of past mistakes' Palestinians do not need to suffer, Avi. Palestinians blame Israel for the occupation. The day they do what you do, admit their mistakes, and take responsibility for it, that is when their talk about peace will be credible. As long as they demand their 'rights', as if one morning in June 1967 Israel just woke up in the morning, and decided to take the territories, I will continue to question the Palestinian's intentions. Palestinians do not need to suffer, Avi. It is amazing to see to what length they will be prepared to go just to avoid admitting their past mistakes.

http://www.mideastweb.org/plc1988.htm They want Arab state based on 1947 resolution and an end of Israeli occupation of Palestinian land - meaning the right of return. I think it is a non-starter even now. Liberals lost another opportunity to come to their sences.

http://www.mideastweb.org/plc1988.htm They want Arab state based on 1947 resolution and an end of Israeli occupation of Palestinian land - meaning the right of return. I think it is a non-starter even now. Liberals lost another opportunity to come to their sences.

this "if only" crap is not worth discussing.to look at a particular episode and ignore the total history of palestinian hatred is infantile research.if only israel did such and such at a particular time is for the birds.

Excuse me - the WHAT ? Should Israel also celebrate Hitlers birthday? Gimme a break - any sane Isreali wouldnt celebrate this farce of a day. Thanx to the lefts champion of champions, Arafat, a cancer, was brought back to Israel. Gee thanx - maybe we should celebrate the Return of Arafat Day too .... LMAO. This article is a joke - it makes fun of Israels own existance - I wonder if Haaretz thinks they are selling newspapers to Israelis or to "Palestinians"?

Palestine Day should be on Tish B Av, a day of mourning ofr all Jews, for the goal of Palestine Day is the destruction of the Jewish state. While Arafat may have called for two states in his proclamations, his actions show that he would only declare a state over all Palestine, from the river to the sea. By their constant resort to violence, the Palestinians have shown themselves unfit for nationhood. The world doesnt need any more Rwandas. The only solution is the three state solution, which existed until 1967. Egypt assumes responsibility for Gaza, Jordan for most of the West Bank, and Israel for the remaining areas

If words were the sole measure by which performance is judged, Mr. Segal would be on the mark. However, actions not words go much farther in illustrating reality. That reality is anything but what Mr. Segal describes. What Mr. Segal misses is that for all the UN resolutions to which the PLO agreed, the PLO never abandoned its expansive and unreasonable interpretation of UN General Assembly Resolution 194. The PLO's unrelenting demand that all Palestinian refugees and their descendants be admitted to Israel is nothing less than a demand that Israel take receipt of a trojan horse to its demise. In the end, it is such unreasonable demands that have led to missed opportunities. Israel has been ready for peace. Yasser Arafat wasn't.

The Jews are not demonstrating with their dead on the streets, yelling and chanting and asking for revenge, the Jews are not promoting brain washing the children in military training camps, teaching them how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non Muslims. The Jews don't highjack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics, the Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all the Infidels. The Jews don't have the economical strength of the Petroleum, nor the possibilities to force the world's media to see "their side" of the question. Perhaps if the world's Muslims could invest more in normal education and less in blaming the Jews for all their problems, we could all live in a better world.

The Global Islamic population is approximately 1.2 billion or 20% of the world population. They received the following Nobel Prizes: Literature 1988 - Najib Mahfooz. Peace: 1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat 1994 - Yaser Arafat Physics: 1990 - Elias James Corey 1999 - Ahmed Zewail Medicine: 1960 - Peter Brian Medawar 1998 - Ferid Mourad The Global Jewish population is aproximately 14,000,000 or about 0.02% of the world population. They received the following Nobel Prizes: Literature: 1910 - Paul Heyse 1927 - Henri Bergson 1958 - Boris Pasternak 1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon 1966 - Nelly Sachs 1976 - Saul Bellow 1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer 1981 - Elias Canetti 1987 - Joseph Brodsky 1991 - Nadine Gordimer World Peace: 1911 - Alfred Fried 1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser 1968 - Rene Cassin 1973 - Henry Kissinger 1978 - Menachem Begin 1986 - Elie Wiesel 1994 - Shimon Peres 1994 - Yitzhak Rabin Chemistry: 1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer 1906 - Henri Moissan 1910 - Otto Wallach 1915 - Richard Willstaetter 1918 - Fritz Haber 1943 - George Charles de Hevesy 1961 - Melvin Calvin 1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz 1972 - William Howard Stein 1977 - Ilya Prigogine 1979 - Herbert Charle s Brown 1980 - Paul Berg 1980 - Walter Gilbert 1981 - Roald Hoffmann 1982 - Aaron Klug 1985 - Albert A. Hauptman 1985 - Jerome Karle 1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach 1988 - Robert Huber 1989 - Sidney Altman 1992 - Rudolph Marcus 2000 - Alan J. Heeger Economics: 1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson 1971 - Simon Kuznets 1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow 1975 - Leonid Kantorovich 1976 - Milton Friedman 1978 - Herbert A. Simon 1980 - LawrenceRobert Klein 1985 - Franco Modigliani 1987 - Robert M. Solow 1990 - Harry Markowitz 1990 - Merton Miller 1992 - Gary Becker 1993 - Robert Fogel Medicine: 1908 - Elie Metchnikoff 1908 - Paul Erlich 1914 - Robert Barany 1922 - Otto Meyerhof 1930 - Karl Landsteiner 1931 - Otto Warburg 1936 - Otto Loewi 1944 - Joseph Erlanger 1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser 1945 - Ernst Boris Chain 1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller 1950 - Tadeus Reichstein 1952 - Selman Abraham Waksman 1953 - Hans Krebs 1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann 1958 - Joshua Lederberg 1959 - Arthur Kornberg 1964 - Konrad Bloch 1965 - Francois Jacob 1965 - Andre Lwoff 1967 - George Wald 1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg 1969 - SalvadorLuria 1970 - Julius Axelrod 1970 - Sir Bernard Katz 1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman 1975 - Howard Martin Temin 1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg 1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow 1978 - Daniel Nathans 1980 - Baruj Benacerraf 1984 - Cesar Milstein 1985 - Michael Stuart Brown 1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein 1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini] 1988 - Gertrude Elion 1989 - Harold Varmus 1991 - Erwin Neher 1991 - Bert Sakmann 1993 - Richard J. Roberts 1993 - Phillip Sharp 1994 - Alfred Gilman 1995 - Edward B. Lewis Physics: 1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson 1908 - Gabriel Lippmann 1921 - Albert Einstein 1922 - Niels Bohr 1925 - James Franck 1925 - Gustav Hertz 1943 - Gustav Stern 1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi 1952 - Felix Bloch 1954 - Max Born 1958 - Igor Tamm 1959 - Emilio Segre 1960 - Donald A. Glaser 1961 - Robert Hofstadter 1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau 1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman 1965 - Julian Schwinger 1969 - MurrayGell-Mann 1971 - Dennis Gabor 1973 - Brian David Josephson 1975 - Benjamin Mottleson 1976 - BurtonRichter 1978 - Arno Allan Penzias 1978 - Peter L Kapitza 1979 - Stephen Weinberg 1979 - Sheldon Glashow 1988 - Leon Lederman 1988 - Melvin Schwartz 1988 - Jack Steinberger 1990 - Jerome Friedman 1995 - Martin Perl

When Egypt's Sa'adat made is offer - Israel seized the opportunity. When Jordan's Hussein made his offer - Israel seized the opportunity. When genuine approaches are made by Israel's enemy's, Israel accepts. So why did the Palestinian Res. 181 went unanswered? - because that, Mr. Segal, was not genuine. One can't recognize resolution 242, but avoid amending the Palestinian National Charter which still calls for Israel's destruction. This is an oxymoron. In September 1993, Arafat made another written declaration to Rabin, that the Palestinians will never use violence again to achieve political goals. Since 2000, they officially maintain that the use of violence is legitimate. What is the point of reaching agreements with leaders that do not respect their own signature?

just pls show me you are a rational human being... are USA, AUS, NZ, Canada landgrabs and should the whites return the land to the true owners ?

I remeber those days very well. As soon as that Declaration of Independence was issued, Zionist groups in the US worked relentlessly to undermine it and indeed, as Segal points out, it worked. The first Bush saw, under pressure from AIPAC and theri friends in Congress, that it would be a non-starter. We heard, not that this was something astonishing, no, it was bandied about as yet another Palestinian ploy, a programme of deceit. What they could not do in 1948 and what they lost in 1967 was now approached with a different ploy. In short, the motive of the Declaration was other than what it stated. Israel could not trust it or the Palestinians who still wanted to push them into the sea. That was then and it remains true today. Viability is not high on the list of Israel's priorities for the Palestinian state. Israel is unilaterally creating a border with its seperation wall. Israel is trying to make it logistically impossible for the Palestinians to have their capital in Jerusalem and the same group that produced Yigal Amir is determined at all costs to see that the Muslims loose control over the Temple Mount. The problem is no longer the Palestinians non-recognition of Israel as a Jewish State within mutually agreed on borders. No, the problem is now the non-recognition by Israel of a viable, contiguous palestinian State with its rightful capital in East Jerusalem. Facts are facts on the ground and that is a reality that no amount of political machinations and double speak can cover up.

This is not what is being said until today on PLO TV where they claim everything including Tel Aviv and Haifa

Sorry bud, for all the pain we caused you. You've caused us much more. And I accept your apology a priori. So stop this nonesense about Palestinians needing to permanently suffer because of past mistakes, and start correcting your own country's mistakes. God has no patience for self righteous people who cast judgement on others.

Is the shape of the man's Kafia more important than the PNC vote in Algiers and subsequent declarations of acceptance of the two state solution? Peace requires acceptance of each other. It requires comprimise. Go on dwelling about the shape of kafia's...perhaps a peace deal would devastate you and your somewhat jaded view of the world. Good Luck. Ibrahim

'But what eludes me, is why the image illustrating this article is the PLO seal, that includes all of post-1926 British Mandate Palestine...' Why go back to 1926? - Check out today's Palestinian Government, the one that the Johanes Frazens, Khalids, etc...want us to believe that they seek true peace and reconciliation...if only Israel goes back to the 1967 lines. Palestine Ministry of Parliamentary Affairs: http://www.mopa.gov.ps/ Palestinian central Bureau of Statistics. Note the map that excludes the name 'Israel'. http://www.pcbs.org/pal_map.aspx

..."opportunities"!! in whose eyes? What some Jews call opportunity, we call surrender, capitulation, sell-out. Your problem is that prior to 1967, you considered recognition of Israel?s right to exist a 'surrender'. Those who attack other's rights, lose their own. If one makes an attempt on his neighbor?s life - loses his rights. That's justice, Khalid.

'We are waiting since December 1988 but in vain mainly because USA was never and will not be a honest agent between the concerned parties.' Palestinians wait in vain because it is THEY who are dishonest. had they stop their organized murder campaign against Israel's innocents, they would have a state by now.

Did you notcie Jeroen, that Arafat wore his kafiah in the shape of the complete map of Israel? From his head to his chest, in exactly the same shape as the country. He did that to make a statement: all Israel is Palestine.

..."opportunities"!! in whose eyes? What some Jews call opportunity, we call surrender, capitulation, sell-out. Any solution not involving returning the stolen land will not be accepted. period. we are a proud and dignified people. We are not children of a lesser God. Jews should realize this before it is too late.

"that started in 1967". Thus the borders are drawn. The "Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war" is therefore NOT refering to the land grab of 1948-49. So Israels reluctancy to adhere is just that and nothing else. The game is up. Time used to be on the Israeli side and foot dragging became a political art form. 'Fact on the ground' would be the weapon how to fight any possiblity for a viable Palestinian state. However the Palestinians didn't leave, so denying them freedom or rights in Greater Israel became an International issue. Israel wanted the land, but not the people that came with it. "Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war". Now those are words that do NOT go away, no matter how Israel is playing for time. Time that really isn't on Israel's side, at least that Israel run by Ariel Sharon. Every Israeli PM have played for time and tried in their way how to grab land and get rid of the people-The Palestinians. It hasn't worked and it will not work. "An end to the occupation that started in 1967" will however work and it's high time to realize the asperation of the Palestinians for freedom, it is a fundamental human right. YES even for Palestinians.

Interesting article offering a much needed shimmer of hope. But what eludes me, is why the image illustrating this article is the PLO seal, that includes all of post-1926 British Mandate Palestine... I read about the Two State solution, but I see one Red territory.

Sadly many of our diplomats and academics are in love with words, written or oral, and ignore that treaties, proclamations, and agreements are all basically meaningless. It is acts which count. Mr. Segal's reliance on documents and Palestinian rhetoric that is nice sounding to westerners wishes to ignore the real actions of the Palestinians both in this conflict and in their self-government, as well as what they have communicated internally to their own people, in political, social, and educational terms. No disrespect intended, but I am glad Mr. Segal is not an Israeli negotiator dealing with the Palestinians.

We are waiting since December 1988 but in vain mainly because USA was never and will not be a honest agent between the concerned parties. Also add to that: There was no real honest and brave partner in Israel. I hope Amir Peretz will be the real one.