The connections between Israeli greed and the existential threat

I am not attempting to help Yaakov. I don't believe him to be a person of good will. I don't believe he is trying to help people.

An elite, hedonistic and greedy, betraying spiritual Jewish values, abandoning the needy, poor, desperate, powerless by sheer indifference. Expecting sacrifices from them while considering themselves above the law. Once Spain did a very very wrong thing and after that rabbi's and scholars betrayed the people in the ghetto's. When spiritual and economic desperation grew and grew and betrayal was daily pain. Powerless magical rebel Jews reinvented nature and meaning of existance and experiences, transformed their cruel fate and experienced injustice in blessing and natural state of being: Kabbala. Exposure of greedy and selfish indifference and betrayal by birth of tikkun olam. Oh Israel, repeate that trick please and expose settlers, corrupt politicians, greedy power brokers and in fact all Jews who look down and do not care for less rich, powerfull, priviliged and successfull Jews. The figures are great: 70% for two state solution, willing to make hard choices for peace. Yo!

I am not sure what your point is concerning paranoid people. i am sure you know that you cannot reason with them and explain thier fears away. I believe, as you do , that some Israelis believe in thier hearts that the "existential threat' is real. This is not because they are ill, this is because of decades of Zionist propaganda. surely, as a psychiatrist you understand fear is a most effective propaganda strategy. Yaakov IS trying to help -by telling the truth. If people don't want to see the truth, [maybe because it interferes with justifications for thier greed? defence mechanisms, you probably heard of them] they won't be able to, that is true . Maybe you don't want to see it either. And help me out girl, how are YOU helping Yaakov by calling him, "a very strange person"? Don't you heal people by helping them see reality? Physician, heal theyself

Let me clarify my beliefs real quick and then I'll elaborate on what I said, because, similarly to a lot of fronts on this conflict, I have an inkling that we agree somewhere. I am a Zionist, but I support a Palestinian state within pre-1967 borders. My problem is the same type of problem that the world is having with Israel - I am not in support of lunatics with power: Netanyahu, Lieberman, Barak - but also the entire power structure of Hamas that just executed two of its own people against UN wishes for "collaborating with israel" - by firing squad. I believe that the Palestinians have just as much of a responsibility as the Israelis to rise up and put forth a just, decent, and peaceful delegation to solve this issue. Hamas and and their "Martyr Mouse" children's propaganda are no more an ally for peace than the settlers and their evil ways.

Judaic values represent a heritage that has nurtured a common bond. They have enabled Jews to be leaders in social justice through the centuries. They have helped sustain a pride in one's heritage knowing of this continuance of truth and justice through the generations. We have been committed to helping those least able to help themselves and have fulfilled the mandate of a chosen people. However we now find ourselves striving for a nation-state. Acquisition of land and resources have become a preoccupation. Many of us are driven by what we perceive as God's will in reestablishing an ancient kingdom. To that end we are prepared to use whatever means to benefit ourselves - publicly or privately. As Einstein predicted in 1947, establishment of a Jewish state will damage Judaism because of a focus on narrow nationalistic issues. Today's Israelis have reached that point where land, resources, personal benefit, security and disdain for diversity predominate.

"O, and if Israel wasn`t capable of defendind itself?!" If that had been the case the author of the article would have been correct when he said that there was an existential military threat. If there was some kind of point you wanted to make I think you will need to try again, maybe with more words...

you seem to be talking about a country you don't know. it would take you only a few days, /maybe hours, while in israel to discover it's a western country, built on a 'western' value system. just by turning on your TV /by looking out your hotel room window you'd know. as you surely do know, this term is not a geographical one. btw, the whole western civilization, w/europe & the US at its center, has its roots in the ME as its value system(s) via judaism & christianity all began here. this is what made the western world as we know it to the extent nothing else did, & that including all the 'revolutions', political & otherwise, shaping it over the last few recent centuries. you'd expect the country founded by primarily people (ashkenazi jews) coming from europe who were inspired by the humanistic ideas & ideals most in vogue at the time, to be anything else? so what are you talking about? btw, thinking the existential threat is an empty slogan, well, you live in arizona..

Stop this endless talk about the WWII. Konfuzius said "Don't do to the others what you don't want to be done to you". Israel does to their neighbors what it doesn't what to be done to it. Why should they like the jews? Isn't there a reason for the growing anti-semitism? Yes, there is, in the everyday news of the Israel's policy!

yes, israel has undergone a faster transition than other countries, from a buoyant idealism to the abandonment of it & a slide toward hedonism. but then israel is a special & incomparable case in most respects. it's a young country & the rest of the western world was already on that slide long before the 2WW. why does he expect israel to be different? he sees altruism & idealistic values to be on the rise in the west generally & indeed in europe? we're a-l-l sliding towards hedonism, the very way our system works is literally educating a-l-l of us to greed etc. what is the last global economic showdown a sign of in sheleg's view? it's happening everywhere & we in the west are in the center & at the heart of it. w/the only difference that most western countries don't have a reason to continuously keep mourning their fallen in a perpetual struggle for survival, making them ever more, & perilously so, complacent. sheleg better complain about the whole world.

"Jordan and Egypt have already disproved that zionist rationalisation." Egypt is a military dictatorship. Jordan is a kingdom run by a ruling elite. Both nations are essentially being bribed by the US to maintain peace with Israel. If either of those two regimes fall the people of those nations will probably not maintain peace with Israel - even if their is no longer an occupation. Back in 1975 you could have made the same argument about Iran - "Well Iran is an ally of Israel so that proves that the nations of the regime can live in peace with Israel"

Where else does the moral authority of Israel or the US lie other than with its dead soldiers?

sounds like a good idea to me. For Israel, the USA, and everywhere else where standards of governance and community solidarity are falling.

The majority of Israelis do not believe peace with Palestinians is attainable. Has any significant percentage of the Israeli population risen up to demand an end to the occupation? What is the government that they elected? What has the state done to confront the colonists in the OT? Honestly, they have done nothing except create the conditions which have allowed the occupation to become more entrenched. Israel has peace with Egypt and Jordan. It has been offered peace by the Palestinians along lines generally agreed on by the international community. Israel has continuously refused to meet its internatinal obligations. As for the rhetorical attacks, those would be deflated if Israel would move toward peace and the creation of a Palestinian state. You seem to believe that Israel cannot existentially live among its neighbours who, regardless of Isael's conduct, will never accept it. Jordan and Egypt have already disproved that zionist rationalisation.

It would be interesting to read your thoughts on Muslim and Arab exceptionalism. No need - I get enough denial from my family; I don't need more on talkback

Once, just once in your life it might help you to read something about the Jews or Israel that isn't written by someone with an axe to grind. " A mind is like an umbrella, it only works when its open"

The responses to Sullivans' post are very revelaing. "This existential threat nonsense" says Sullivan This is a consistent them of non Jews, as is evident by those who contragulated him on the post. They refuse to belief that the Jews of Israel seem themselves as under existential threat. They belief that Israeli's only claim to be threatened, but don't really in their hearts feel threatened - it is only a ruse to perpetuate occupation. They think that if it is all a ruse then the ruse can be revealed, the perpetrators exposed the behavior can be stopped through shaming. It is inconcievable to them that many many Israeli Jews really.sincerely believe in their hearts that they are under existential threat and and live in fear, they are not "faking" it. But denying it doesn't make it go away.

".. and yet you have a deeply embedded need to see yourselves as living on the brink of utter destruction....brutish society fueledby a sense of collective fear." You are a very strange person. I'm a psychologist and when a patient comes to me who is paranoid, or who lives in fear, the first thing I would do is try to figure out ways to change their thinking; to alleviate or eliminate their fear. Attacking them for being fearful, as you would do, is totally counterproductive.

when we come across corruption in israel it is unsettling.maybe our hopes and expectations are unrealistic.

not quite my opinion but well thought out.

"The fact that Israel is the only country in the world whose very existence is threatened militarily, politically and intellectually, a country whose towns and citizens have for the past 20 years actually been targeted more than any other country in the world, could encourage the destruction of values," Really? "The fact"? For starters: how is Israel's existence threatened intellectually and politically? Secondly, in what way is the military threat to Israel's existence so much worse than that of many other nations? Terrorism is not an existential threat. The threat is the *risk* of war with its neighbours, and Israel is a regional super power. I would be much more worried about a military existential threat if I lived in say Georgia or any other country which is militarily inferior to its potential adversaries. Or in a country at war. In the last 20 years I think Palestinians, Afghans, Iraqis and Yugoslavs have had their respective towns and citizens more targeted than Israelis.

are here only to abuse.we live on jewish land.that is not hedonism.it is sacrifice.like that of the peretz family who recently lost a second son in our continuous wars. rather living in this jewish land requires continuous sacrifice.it is the opposite of hedonism and greed.

when those living under the poverty line see other parents giving their children what the vast numbers of the poor are unable to afford.that is not the way to nuture one nation in this only jewish state. the flaunting of wealth is a sin.do no shame other families by telling them they cannot afford to live like you.

Bibi is a fanatic, at the same time an allarmist who uses the sentence "existential threat" more often than anyone on the planet. At the same time he is a capitalist who, trying the persuade the world that life in West Bank is fantastic and Arabs even have "Multiplexes". For him, there being Multiplex cinemas is the only measure of welfare, forget about hungry Palestinians who cannot have any medical care. The tragedy is that his distorted logic about welfare for Israel itself is also the same. Bibi cares if a jewish Israeli is killed by a terrorist but he does not care if he or she is malnurished because of the widening income gap. Such is the way a capitalist mind works.

Of alll your valuable contributions to Talkback this one surely ranks among your best. Many of the themes you mention are addressed in an excellent book called "Israeli Exceptionalism. The Destabilizing Logic of Zionism" by Shahid Alam, an economist teaching at the Northeastern University in Boston.

suppose we showed our children and more important the citizens of our nation that we do not want to travel premium class nor do we crave to live in a luxury most israelis would not be able to share.that would be real leadership.

the leadership are honoured with the leadership of the one jewish state.and they do indeed take to hedonism rather too easily.too many shame us far too often.

Congratulations on your post. It could not have been said better.

Cipora, I stand with the truth. I stand up for freedom above all. Liberty and Equality. Jerusalem, cannot be divided. It must remain as part of Israel, yet to be shared by all faiths. The political side of Jerusalem must be not be so easily forced upon humanity. Its symbolic, a cornerstone of the Jewish Faith. Israel today, is losing its way within the International Community. We may well be further isolated mainly due to right wing settler factions that indeed have caused doubt in the minds of our greatest allies. Israel cannot allow itself to be ambushed by these hocus pocus folk that destroy olive orchards,harass not only ZAHAL, but also the Pals and confuse Israels majority as well. What future are we to expect for our grandchildren ? Or the grandchildren of those that live in Ramallah.? For its time to be counted. Soon enough, Israel will face a war, mainly instigated by Tehran. Israel, must wake up. Decisions must be clear and enforced. In a just and dignified manner. Shavua tov

there is nothing special about greed in israel. its source, as in all other countries, is the narcissistic worship of the individual. those who founded the nation came from situations where existential threat was even more pronounced than it is in present day israel.

You seem to be disillusioned with the unraveling of the founding principles laid out by the kibbutz movement - and the left wing in Israel seems to be just as unraveled. Concurrently you are at despair with the hedonistic gluttony of raw capitalism (and rightly so). So you are stuck for a new answer. The answer is there, but you have to dig for it. Honoring our fallen is a central fabric of our society. Too many of us have lost loved ones in war and as the result of terror. But a forced policy to put in every home photos on the wall of fallen soldiers just doesn't seem the answer to me. What exactly is your message here? To some this could be misconstrued as a message that we should all strive to be martyrs. I would rather leave that dark aspiration to others. We need to strive for life. The voluntary hanging up of photos of esteemed rabbis by religious people is perhaps a sign of ones desire to strive for holiness (not HolyLand_ness). That is a noble aspiration.

am i to understand that now you are willing to divide jerusalem, that it is no longer "over my dead body," as you said not long ago? do you agree that the holocaust is being "pimped?" do you now agree with finkelstein? your posts lately have become difficult to unravel. where exactly do you stand?

The Holocaust happened only 60 years ago. Europe did it. America didn't care. The world turned its back on the Jews. A third of the world now wants another one. They don't care about the Palestinians, they want another 6m J's in the ground. I'm sorry to be the messenger of the news, but the world isn't as rosy as you imagine it to be in America, and Israel is not the prime offender. People are immoral and unethical everywhere (yes, even in New York!) and they abuse each others' human rights - and the Jews are still the prime victim (although Israel sort of protects us). Here's another little secret: G-d wasn't kidding when we stood at the mountain 3,000 years ago, he really expected us to behave &emenate light. And he's showing it to us through the nations, who get the sense that something's not to kosher about our conduct. So what's the moral of the story? We Hebrews just gotta WAKE UP and SCREAM to our TATE who is WAITING for US! Shavua Tov holy brother, yesh lecha neshamale tova:)

In a sense you're right - but in reverse. The existential threat is real - as real as anything. Its reality causes a defense mechanism among Israelis - first of all to survive. All Israelis wish not to control over Arabs. Yes, even the right, even the settlers, even those who want Judea and Samaria. You can call our desire of these lands greed - but we see them as ours, so I'd call it "fighting for that which belongs to you". In any case, 80% of Israelis will agree to peace and compromises once Israel's security is assured by its neighbors (NOT by the U.S.). Right now, it simply isn't. As a demo of the existential threat, consider this: Israel's military might is the only thing that keeps it from destruction. That's precisely why we need it. And the Jews worldwide need it too - don't fool yourself to think that America or any country gives a damn about us. They would have destroyed Auschwitz in 1943 the LATEST, if they did.

You are so right!. If only the Israeli Government had real leaders of stature to steer the country towards peace and security, instead of using and abusing the irrational fear of eternal persecution, and sense of "divine entitlement" that justifies the inhuman policies towards their neighbors.

A brilliant post. The best you have ever written. May I suggest that you use said post as a benchmark for future posts. Have a nice day. Good day, from sunny and cool Swiss Alps.

This is especially true if you take into account newspapers like Haaretz that do their best to undermine the security of the country--Lets see you print this

Blame your previous administrations. The same corruption was in the USA. Ultimately the citizens have to "pay the pied piper" as they say. Economic turn down, failure of the Shekel, Riots and unfortunately war are on it's way to Israel. We need to take steps immediately. This form of Coalition government does not Help the Prime Minister do his job. Please help him and support him so he can assist Israel!

The response by Yaacov Sullivan demonstrates why these talkbacks, despite all the noise and nonsense they also generate, are so valuable. Sheleg wrote an original and meaningful piece that makes an important point about the corruption of values in Israeli society in terms of materialism and the corruption of the older collective ideal of contributing to society. (A dilemma of course faced by most western nations but with a peculiar acuity by Israel.) But Sullivan brings it to a yet deeper and more fundamental level by exposing the unexamined laziness in Sheleg's assumptions and the unspoken national ethos underlying them: "occupation, national arrogance, the sense of divine entitlement and exceptionalism." One of the most illuminating talkbacks I've read in a long while.

Yaakov - I do not wish to justify the atrocities committed by those in power (make sure to separate those in power from civilians, unless you want to innocent Palestinians to be held responsible for Hamas's brutal actions) - but your interpretation of the Israeli security situation is completely see-through. Israel is under constant rhetorical attacks from an increasingly hostile (and OK - sometimes justifiably so) world. From crazies who have zero influence like King Ahmadinejad to pseudo intellectual-hypocritical Americans who all of a sudden claim to love the Palestinians, the Jews have been under fire in modern day just as much as 60 years ago, 160 years ago, and in a couple decades, 6000 years ago. We must open our eyes to the innocents on BOTH sides, in Israel they are the gentler, more rational, quieter voices that the media doesn't care at all about.

As the good book says (and I am paraphrasing here).

Thank you!

"The ultimate legitimate goal is maximizing profits and the pursuit of riches. It's a matter of looking after one's own interests, and the only limitations in the best-case scenario are limits imposed by the law." - Yair Sheleg Wrong. The only limitation is how one might corrupt those who enforce the law. When a society becomes corrupt, it is only a matter of whom might corrupt the government most which matters.If 60 years ago Israel could not afford corruption it had little does not change the fact that in the late 1970s corruption was used as an argument to depose the left, only to give power to a right even more corrupt. We saw the same change in the same time frame here in America. Sixty years ago there WAS an existential threat. Now the 'existential threat' is one manufactured out of lies and innuendo by those who wish to distract Israelis from their corruption. Without an 'existential threat' Israelis might notice the criminality of their ruling class.

This existential threat nonsense is a part of the national ethos that you need to continue your 43 yr occupation of another nation. They are the victim, not Israel. Occupation, national arrogance, the sense of divine entitlement and exceptinalism have all played in significant role in the couurtion that has overtaken Israeli society. Might, brutality, contempt and scor of those who are weak or powerless have become cardinal virtues. Pimping the holocaust has become so pronounced that it has overtaken the abilty of Israel to live as a free and independent nation. You are one of the worlds most militarised societies, a nuclear power and yet you have a deeply embedded need to see yourselves as living on the brink of utter destruction and in order to survive you must continue the occuption and the myth that your are continuously unable to live a secure existence. This has simply undone you and turned you into a morally bankrupt and brutish society fueledby a sense of collective fear.

...you want to combat corruption in the government by requiring everyone to hang up a picture of someone who died in service to the country. Hmmmmm.

Something must change for the better, and will change for the better. The corruption is getting to rock bottom, and anti-Semitism and anti-Israel threats and bashing are record high since WWII. I think it will happen after Netanyahu leaves his office as PM. All its ideas and maneuvering are bankrupt.

The only democracy in the ME rings hollow also. Greed, true. Existential threat, another empty slogan. Salaam/Shalom