Sources: IDF objects to Gaza op because of tensions with Syria

The chief backers of Hamas are Iran and Syria. Perhaps the best way to deal with the situation is the next time Hamas does something which threatens Israel and/or Israelis, rather than respond directly against Hamas/Gaza, the appropriate targets would be the Syrians or the Iranians. That will send a far clearer message: no more financial backing, no more weapons ... OR ELSE. Besides, the Syrians and the Iranian backers of Hamas do not care what happens in Gaza -- they don't live there. Maybe Israel needs to give them a taste of retaliation a little closer to Tehran or Damascus.

If I had anything to say in the government of Israel I woul answer Hamas the following way. Religiously everyday and night I would shoot the same number of rockets of the same capacity inside Gaza. So this way they will have legitimatetly something to cry about.Hell for hell. And I add the hell with opinions from anybody.

If I had anything to say in the government of Israel I woul answer Hamas the following way. Religiously everyday and night I would shoot the same number of rockets of the same capacity inside Gaza. So this way they will have legitimatetly something to cry about.Hell for hell. And I add the hell with opinions from anybody.

Collective Punishment was enacted to prevent the massacre of villages for the actions of a few. (Freedom from Harm) There was never any idea that such enactment required one party to supply protected persons with electricity. (Economic Rights). It's worth mentioning that Article 33 specifically excludes terrorism as well. It's a bit rought to practice terrorism then cry that your rights under the article are being violated.

tad i must note, i am not against the jews living where they are, i am totally against the oppression/treatment for those that lived there for thousands of years continuosly, they have a right too, and israel screams terrorism when it does exactly the same thing, hypocricy i despise, those that weren't part of the holocaust but try and claim it are despised too, the matter is settled, it is in historys books, don't abuse it i say.

No need to cut off the electric, just cut off the fuel supply... Collective punishment is when Hamas fires Kassams into Israeli town, attempting to punish and kil the population collectively...

maybe someone could send Leona a copy of the international law. Firing DAILY rockets into Sderot is collective punishment for the residents of that area!

"It simply is ridiculous that electricity is still not stopped." What a way to control the population. Destroy a Palestinian power plant supplying internal electrical power so that Gazans must buy from Israel and then threaten to cut off outside electrical power. This is called crowd control Israeli style or in other words collective punishment.

It's just so easy to handwave the inconveniences in life away, isn't it Jason? J: "Palestinians are not entitled to ANYTHING...they never had a country therefor there is no entitlement" Res 181 and the Partition Plan; the cornerstone of the Israeli declaration of independence, Jason. That plan had some entitlements for the Arabs too... J: " If you want to throw out how land was stolen from them, fine" Resl 194. Israel has to tempt them with honey to get them to drop that entitlement, not simply tell them to drop dead. J: "Land was stolen from the Jews too so that all just washes out" I steal money from you. Someone robs me. Therefore I do not owe you any money. That's your idea of how the law works, is it? J: "You are a obstacle for peace as you, like your brothers keep making these none realistic entitlement requests that will never happen." Just stand aside and let us screw 'em over, and then there'll be peace... You really, honestly think that, do you?

Robert Briscoe, a JEW, was the Mayor of Dublin..."Briscoe" isn't a Jewish sounding name either...You, in turn, are using the name of a chain of cheap steak houses in N.Y. "Tad's Steaks"... The so-called steak was more gristle than meat, very much like what you have to say...All air and no substance...

When you mention terrorism, what would you call what the white Aussie did to the Aboriginies when they stole their land???..Abo's still being subjugated to abominable living and social conditions...

well well, seems you forget how it all started, al-qeaida was reared and supplied and taught by none other than your government, actually, if you research more you will find that most of your enemies were once reared by the american government, now why have they turned on you? well grace, you should really ask your government, cause it started it all.

again, what a load of BS, you haven't read the latest but continuolly make up stories as you go, if we support the struggle of the pals as all4peace says then yes we support terrorism, but, the are terrorists on the israeli and american side too, which makes YOU a terrorist supporter also, seems were all supporting terrorists.BTW slavo, your logic astounds me, why? cause it is all fabricated by you as we have seen so many times in the past, do your freaking home work before coming on here.

Of course Hamas would be more successful in stopping the Kassams, they're the one that are responsbile for their being launched...Even you should realize that...

Ashkenazi is correct...He shouldn't divide his forces...Use maximum force in each area, as required, root out the problemm...Using the full firepower of the IDF in Gaza or the north, will elminiate the problem for many years into the future...Gaza is easy enough, shut off water, electric & fuel, a full state of siege.....Terror will grind to a halt in a few days...

Arab aggression against Israel has been the problem from the start and is the problem today. Israel will survive though, because it has the moral high ground.

A PALI poster SAID "they did not USE toilet paper......P.U. !! BET they smell "ripe" in that heat,

Seemed measures short of a ground assault would be preferable, but Clickfool shows that whatever Israel does, it's all the same to him. So Israel should just as well launch a ground assault, or whatever they find appropriate. By any means necessary, then.

It's insanity to put up with Qassams for so long; it must be stopped at all costs, and if it means re-occupation of significant parts of Gaza, then so be it. Are you waiting for Israeli kids to be killed by a stray Qassam?

This would be a much better (and fairer!) way to stop missiles raining on Sderot.

Okay, let's talk about occupation. Let's talk about the 19 years, from 49 to 67 when Jordan and Egypt occupied Pal. lands, the WB and Gaza, respectively. Please tell us about the great treatment the occupied people got under THAT occupation, the great schools with Anti-Sem. textbooks, the wonderful infrastructure, or was it decrepit refugee camps. Israel is the ONLY country in the region which DOES care what happens to the Pals.

I think Kohn can speak for herself and is not in need of your two cents. With a name like "Murphy", you sound like a fake. Ms. Kohn regularly publishes prissy BS attempting to cover it with attractive decorum. Her posts are as invalid as yours all attempting to justify the invasion and theft of land not your own and to steal more by force. You will not be successful and no amount of excuses and euphemisms will allow Israel's survival if she does not change course. Do you see what is happening to the mighty US; what happened to England and Russia? Now, what are you and your two bit, overweight, overworked, nondedicated IDF going to do? Repeat Lebanon? Introduce nukes? Sad ending I fear. Write back when you use your real name---Murphy is hardly Jewish.

Viper, I certainly do agree with your post. Something is wrong with those Zionists who think they can pull this sham and get away with it. They say they are intelligent people. The concept you laid out is a simple one and their failure to grasp or accept it is odd. Great post.

Don't send me the Zionist spiel; it is over worked. Your Holocaust survivors are starving after all the money given to the government, your beaches are polluted, your workers are not paid, your president was accused of rape, you continue to steal Palestinian land. Sounds like a banana republic. Get some of those giant brain scientists to write a paper attesting to the fact that if you steal land and murder its owners, you will have a perpetual problem. They cannot be too bright if they have not yet figured it out. You've had too much 'superiority' BS training over there. Look up theft, murder and mayhem in the dictionary and then work your way from there. US economy is tanking; yours was tanking before ours. Without US welfare, you would be toast. Write a post crowing in 3-4 months.

Give yourself and your people credit. US voters know that neocons were knee deep in persuading Bush to invade Iraq, of course, as usual, they now deny it because they have their sights on Iran. The other problems you enumerate that need our money can all be traced to the money we've wasted in the ME to keep Israel afloat, all while she continues to steal more land. Don't start with the 'protecting' ourselves routine. That is simply a euphemism for stirring up more BS there and stealing more land (as in IAF flying over Syria and Lebanon). Don't let the Zionist mouth sign a check that the Zionist ass can't cash over there, and it appears you guys can't rest without some skirmish here or there, killing and stealing. Have you no mirror image? Enough already of the spin, distortion and lies of Zionist apologists. Your actions have become exceedingly clear.

Would keep their mouths shut tight...One say's their going to retaliate...The other say's, hold on, we have to think about Syrian reaction. Then the first one changes his miand again.. It's like watching a game of ping pong...No sense of direction or committment...Either cut Gaza off at the knees or shut up about doing it..For G-d's sake make up your so-called minds..

Ibrahim, You said, "I am happy you traveled in the West Bank with Arabs...at least you know what rubbish is spewed about them." Then you said, "...stubborn and greedy enemy in the state of Israel, which prefers plotting for more dunams of land before signing PEACE on the dotted line." You applaud me for understanding Arabs, so let me help you understand Israelis. Greed is not on the Israelis mind. They merely want to stay alive. All the measures that you complain of are just self-defense. The Arabs were offered much more land by the UN in 1948 but, blinded by their lust for Jewish blood, they turned the offer down. Imagine the history of Palestine and Israel if the Arabs had only accepted partition? Also, let me tell you this. You will get your BEST DEAL FROM ISRAEL. If your fantasies came true today and Israel were wiped off the face of the map (G-d forbid), how long do you think your Arab brothers would stand for an independent Palestine? (Remember Black September!) Barry

If you can't tell the difference between the aggressive actions of the near daily rocket attacks against the Jewish state by Hamas or those permitted by Hamas and the IDF response, your judgement is based on a very strong anti-Israel bias.For Israel to defend itself is terrible; for Israel to go after those reponsible for killing Israelis is against international law; Israel at best in a defensive action cannot go after those killers if the innocent can be harmed.No defense is entitled for the Jewish state.Your hatred is disgusting.

Corporal Clickfool tells us gazans are just like you and me, and want nothing more than peace, prosperity and good wime. The little corporal forgot to tell teh gazans that, as they daily support Hamas. If gazans truly wanted what the minister for propoganda Indrajayah and the corporal tell us which is peace. they woulfd have told hamas to shove off and not to fire any more rockets. Palis have done this before and Hamas has listened, it would appear the silence from gazans is most deafening because hamas is still what it does best, which is run arouind armed being thugs. Gaza is run by thugs, but there are more gazans than there are Hamsniks 1.4 million gazans only 20,000 Hamasniks. By sheer force of numbers, gazans could chose to stop hamas. Perhaps they would be martyred, perhaps they would run out of virgins. But for now, they arent doing jack to stop hamas. Not enough pain yet I would wager

I ask the same question time and time again , and hope it will appear this time - WHY is Israel being forced to give ARAB REFUGEES who have elected to be called Palestinians, a Homeland 'side by side' with her, when the US and European Countries hunt them, arrest them and put them in jail. Is there any prerogative for this move when they have proved to be Terrorists by the the US and EUROPE. Why as ARABS ARE THEIR OWN COUNTRIES ALLOWED TO RESIST taking the responsibilirty of caring for them while the Jewish State, their arch enemy has to take this responsibility? WHY DO ARAB LEADERS REFUSE TO HAVE A 23RD ARAB STATE CALLED PALESTINE WITHIN THEIR TERRITORIES AND ALLOW IT TO BE IN JEWISH TERRITORY. ANSWER PLEASE.

The pali minister for propoganda Indrajayah now tries to vex and confuse us by telling us she never said certain things. The first precept of being a propoganda minsiter is this. 1) Look innocent 2) Act surpirsed 3) show concern 4) deny, deny, deny Seems the minister for propoganda Indrajayah is using every trick in the bag to distance herself from commetns she tells us she never made. Stay tuned for more propoganda from the minsiter hizself, all in the name of "peace for gazans"

Corporal Clickfool has it all wrong. Nothing happens in gaza with the blessing and approval of hamas. Even Meshaal approved of the firing of quassams by hamas and others. The little corporal selectively spews facts without telling the truth. Then again why would Corporal Clickfool let the truth get in the way of a good anti semetic rant. Back to your prison now Corporal

Propoganda minister Indrajayah cant believe her eyes when she read the ISraeli government is avbout to collectively punish gazans. Believe it, and its about time. Short of going in and cleaning house in gaza, this would be the least deadly way of gaining compliance. Yes gaza is just like a concentration camp, more so since Egypt declined to take it back (three times) Egypt knew what the palis were "trouble" and divested themselves of these people. Dont expect ISrael to continue to foot the bill for gas, electricity and fuel while gazans (people who live in gaza and Hamas does) send rockets over the fence to ISrael targetting day care centresw. Time to plunge gaza into darkness. Cut the pwoer, let them sit in the dark for a while

Killed 6 palestinian children 2. Invite HAMAS to attack with ancients rockets 3. As a "price tag": kill them all in Gaza. Ancient rockets. I must have missed something in Propoganda minister Indrajayahs missive. Where did hamas get antuique rockets. She must mean those rockets that are regularly machined in gaza usaing modern machinery and electrtonics, the same rockets filled with modern mi,litary explosives. Nothing antuique or ancient about them. As for the kids, doom on the parents in Gaza who allow their kids to go close to these launchers I guess the idea of getting 20,000 dollars for eacxh martyred child from hamas is far to appealing. After all they can always make another martyr cant they. making babies is cheap, getting them martyred is priceless. For everything else, there is Hamas.

The truth is JON, they don't really mind because it really is not that important to them...... or didn't you know?

You blabber on too much about entitlements... There is no such thing... Entitlement is just another way of saying want.... Palestinians are not entitled to ANYTHING...they never had a country therefor there is no entitlement. If you want to throw out how land was stolen from them, fine...Land was stolen from the Jews too so that all just washes out. The Jews have given up way more entitlements in history then the Pals.... You are a obstacle for peace as you, like your brothers keep making these none realistic entitlement requests that will never happen. Let me put it this way...YOU ARE ENTITLED TO NOTHING....and what you are given is more then you are entitled too. Israel has offered the Pals 1000X more then any other nation would ever offer their enemies for peace...but, Alas, we all know that Pals don't want peace...you are just a people born and raised on war and murder so nothing will change.

for your answer.The QUESTION I was asking is WHY TERRORISTS ARE NABBED, ARRESTED AND JAILED ALL OVER THE WORLD WHILE ISRAEL IS BEING FORCED TO ACCEPT THEM AS NEIGHBOURS. And the TRUTH IS THAT NOBODY WANTS THOSE ARAB REFUGEES.......!!! AND ISRAEL IS BEING MADE THE SCAPEGOAT. HOWEVER it is not the end of the story and the Arab Terrorists who nobody wants to take in may yet find themselves 'Homeless for centuries to come'.

The axis of evil is Hamas and JIhad, neither of which want peace with ISrael, their stated goal is to wipe every jew in Israel off the map. Pure evil. No siocially redeeming characteristics for these groups. Israel derfends itself only. Yes it has a big army 500,000 men under arms when callup happens. Hizbullah however is no slough with its four battalions which is heavily armed with latest Soviet anti tank rockets, and 20 tons of explosives it has smuggled in. It should be a good fight. but hamas will lose in spite of their Iranian revolutiinary guard training. The reason they will lose is because they have no dog in this fight, they are simply thugs spoiling for a fight.. and they will soon get it

The idea that the IDF cannot stop Hamas's constant rocket attacks upon school children, owing to concerns about a 'second front' with Syria, is absurd. Can this really be the state that defeated multiple invading armies at once multiple times? Go get them; and do not apologise, but rather demand the apologies you are owed.

for Darfur???...Great pro-Arabist that you pretend to be, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS have been killed in the Sudan, and not one word from your keyboard...In case you didn't know it, it's the Muslim's who have been the killing Darfur... Now, the Arab Muslim factions in the Sudan are killing one another, not in the name of Jihad or Allah, just in the name of grabbing as much of the loot as possible.... I may have overlooked it, still waiting to see what sources you've been using for you statistics...RSVP ASAP

I thought you believed in democracy! The people of Gaza elected the killers and thugs who constitute the Hamas government.They are responsible along with the leadership and apparatus of the Gaza government, also known as Hamastan.Since they have approved of the policies of Hamas,why be concerned?They have celebrated the killings of Israelis in the past and will do so in the future.The reluctance of the Israeli government to effect more severe punishment is understandable,but the safety of the Israelis is paramount.

Natural gas, you're full of it...Boasting you were going to become a Human Shield and still hiding in Australia....Pray tell, what are "off sure" assets...You're as Australian as a Tibetian Monk, despite your pretenses....You're spelling the way you thought it sounded, not the way it's actually written, using Phonics... "`acquire` Gaza`s off sure assets, following Israel`s `action on the ground in Gaza?"

...until you're blue in the face. Hamas claims to be the popularly elected government of Palestine. Israel never made such a claim. That's why.

It simply is ridiculous that electricity is still not stopped. Hamas is making bombs and Israel is allowing them to do it by supplying them with electrical power. This is outragious!

here we go again, you listen to too much propaganda, you talk about this and talk about that, how about you go live in palestine as they do and see how your treated? how about someone come to your country and slowly push you out, then when you retaliate your labelled a terrorist, then sanctions start against you and the propaganda to make out YOUR the terrorist?, go back to your mommy little boy.

You wrote: "Everyone accepts this other than Zionists." Please provide evidence that everyone accepts this other than Zionists.

D: "So, Johnboy, what is your version of peace in the middle east?" My view is: 1) Previous negotiations floundered because: Israel negotiated on the basis of NEEDS (I *must* have this, so you *must* agree..) while The Pals negotiated on the basis of ENTITLEMENTS (I *won't* agree, because you're not entitled to demand this) 2) So put the issue of NEEDS aside, and get agreement on the ENTITLEMENTS - take it to arbitration if you must, but *settle* *this* *first*. 3) Once (2) is settled *then* start haggling about what you NEEDS Why? Because then you have to bribe the other side to Give This Up, rather than demand that they Accept That I Must Have This. Much better chance of success, because it forces each side into "give and take" rather than let either side shout "gimme gimme gimme". Me, I like the Saudi Plan a lot, and (1)-(3) is the reason why; the ENTITLEMENTS (Res 192,242) must be acknowledged by you before you are even invited to sit at the table.

"Answer: because the very people who are running Gaza today are the very people who controlled the kassams then." There are many different groups in Gaza, Wolf - including, of course, the deadly political enemies of Hamas, Fatah. Islamic Jihad are not under the control of Hamas, no more than they were under the control of Israel. There are exactly the same problems of stopping their activities that the IDF faced.

"THE COWARDLY CLIKKY HIDES BEHIND ANALIAS" Think about it for a second. How do we know that you are actually called "Paul Harris"?

The perfection of your own country leaves the rest of the world in total despair. We know that your country has no faults and no flaws and that's why you are at liberty to criticise the rest of the world. Yes, there are things in Israel that I object to but we are totally transparent about them and doing our best to rectify them while protecting ourselves. Please send us a formula for gaining perfection (and tell me in the meantime about how you solved your own problems like the war in Iraq and high risk mortgaging and attending to the problem of rebuilding where Katrina's destruction raged and the lack of direction and morality of the youth in the inner cities).

You're living in a complete fantasy world. Israel's scientists, engineers, and agriculturalists publish more scientific papers proportionally than their counterparts anywhere else on earth. Proportionally, Israel has more university graduates than any other country. The result is that Israel has a greater concentration of high-tech companies outside Silicon Valley. Source: The Spectator, 16 April 2005. That is Israel's "payday," not the one you have in mind in your fantasy world.

israel will never know peace if it keeps this up, as i have said before, 60 years of unrest and you still wonder why your continuosly being attacked, did isreal think it would walk in, take over and it'll all be forgoten in a couple of years? it will never end till israel gives back the land, never.and the arabs will never rest too, they will keep going so history is showing us.

Israel agreed to a Palestinian state alongside her own country, in 1948. You are exercising the Palestinian talent for mindless tears, as usual. Grow up, be a man and face facts. Your countrymen are only there to destroy and not to build.

"The question of occupation can be decided only by courts of law, or else by the Security Council under Chapter VII." There is no question about the status of Gaza at all, Cipora. This was decided a long while ago. Israel is the "Occupying Power" there, by virtue of its control of every border, its naval blockade and its control of the air above Gaza. Everyone accepts this, other than Zionists who choose to deny it because they want to commit a clear war crime in cutting off essential supplies.

Send me your address and I will send you the "Transfer Agreement". If you have not read it, you should and then you won't post foolishness. The Palestinian people are indigenous to the land, most of your people are not. There will be no transfer of the population, no matter how much you wish it to be so. Once you understand that and that the stolen land must be returned and that you cannot steal anymore, there will be peace, get it? You sound like a starry eyed teenager wishing and hoping for the extermination of an entire people---this from a people who themselves claim attempts were made at their own extermination. Shame on your black heart. I hope God pays you four fold for your thoughts and actions, hypocrite.

What did Zionists do with the millions extorted from countries over the Holocaust? Did they give it to the living victims who are old? Why are they begging for money for food? Israel has gotten more than her share? What did she do with what she got---she bought weapons and attacked all her neighbors stealing land in the process from Lebanon and the Palestinians while beating war drums against Iran. Why are your workers on strike every other week for nonpayment of wages? Clean up your mess before worrying about what the Palestinians got after Zionists stole everything they had. What a crock you post. Why have you polluted the beaches? Any answers?

When Israel was still occupying Gaza and the IDF were in full military control of the place they were still unable to stop the firing of Qassams into Israel. Why do you believe that Hamas would be more successful? you ask Answer: because the very people who are running Gaza today are the very people who controlled the kassams then.

Let's see: Gaza is an armament stocked by contributions meant to feed the poverty stricken inhabitants A supreme lack of superego or conscience is their strongest weapon. They have no compunction about killing anyone in their path. Yes the individuals are just as helpless as Israeli individuals or as you are in person, Clickfool, but their very lack of morality (and PLEEEEASE don't tell me that they are moral) grants them an extra layer of ability. People who have no qualms and make no apologies about their representatives who deliberately go among the tenderest members of their enemy and slaughter them are no moral giants.

What diagnosis do you attribute to the Zionists, who have stolen and continue to steal Palestinian land, killing them and their children behind pure D BS while falsely arguing they are the original inhabitants of the land? What diagnosis do you attribute to a people who are always the victim, contrary facts not withstanding? May I send you a copy of the "Transfer Agreement" and "51 Documents--Zionists Collaboration with the Nazis" to get you started on a true history? They are hard to find in the Library, but are available. How about Herzl's diary? Unclean hands? You bet. One always reaps what his hand has sown. Many Jews have told the truth to replace lies.

WHEN YYOU SHOW COURAGE CLIKKY YOU CAN CONDEMN OTHERS !! UNTIL THEN CLOSE DOWN YOUR KEYBOARD !

Since you have nothing to say to the point you seek to wound. I don't think Ms Kohn is vulnerable to your kind of desperate rhetoric or she wouldn't be here any longer.

Oh no, Margie. The only ones responsible for Israel's readily apparent demise are those Zionists who lust after and steal Palestinian land and their lives, while making patently stupid false statements to justify it. Zionists are responsible for Israel's demise and make no mistake about it, she is undergoing demise no matter what her cheer leaders are saying. Ask your Holocaust survivors and old people in Israel. Where is their money given by Germany and others? Stolen? The shame of them begging for food money while Zionists use their past misery to back off criticism and extort money from Germany and others. Oh yes, Israel is undergoing demise by her own hand and arrogant people within her.

messages not appeared you ask? Don't blame Haaretz. Not many appear at this point because not many support the madness over there, i.e., the Court that ruled that Jewish squatters could live in buildings on land admittedly belonging to Palestinians. We of the world are quickly coming to the conclusion that Israel is a banana republic, unable to make it on her own without US handouts, which Zionists frequently accuse Palestinians of being guilty--handouts. Of course, they need handouts after Israel stole everything but their phalluses. How much support do you think Israel has at this point? Palau, Micronasia, US and dwindling. Shake you head!!! Join reality.

Israel should learn from Indonesia.Cut their water' cut everything. Talk very loudly and carry a very very big stick. And use it often,you have got to show them who is the boss here. We almost succeed in East Timor,if only those Australian didn't interfere,we would still be there.But what the heck we still have West Papua.

Just keep pushing the BS spin over there. You will have to again whip out those overweight IDF soldiers sent to Lebanon, to once again huff and puff. The IDF has less troops than the US and your religious don't join up while many of the young don't want to fight. Get a grip and stop with the prissy BS response to outright theft. Who are you trying to fool?

Golly, man, this Gabe guy is whacked and you should have gleaned it by now. His post has nothing to do with the thread, as usual, just hateful unrelated rhetoric and personal attacks from Canada. He always talks badly about women and berates them when he does not agree with them. I bet he married his cousin as only a female family member would tolerate him. Your posts are hard hitting and keep at it. Nobody posts Gabe and for an obvious reasons. Don't let him rile you as that is his aim. Keep right on posting and ignore his ilk, sitting in his armchair in Canada, a would be Zionist warrior far from the action, as his fellow Jews constantly point out to him. A loser to say the least.

This person you discuss strikes me as one of the insecure characters who strive to become teachers of small children so that they can terrify them by their overbearing manner and use of sarcasm. Their intention is to wound and their motivation is their own need for power and control translated often into a psycho-sexual satisfaction. The type is often sexually inadequate, has very little actual intercourse of either kind with significant figures in his life and has a true dilemma about his own self image, which varies from the megalomaniac to the extremely low.

Stop whining! What valuable contributors---you certainly are not one of them sitting down in SC. If there is such a problem, why are you still posting? Hard to hear that everybody in the world doesn't agree with the usual resident posters who never see anything wrong with Zionist behavior. FYI, Jews don't totally own Haaretz anymore---they sold their interest, or at least shared it with Germany, maybe others. Get used to it. A LOT of people think Zionist behavior has gone overboard. Payday is coming soon for her transgressions. You just don't want anyone to discuss it. Try Jerusalem Post and hats off to Haaretz for letting Zionists know a lot of people don't buy your bullshit. Get it? Okay.

when Israel is now working towards giving them a Homeland to live side by side with the Jewish State?

"You frequently comment that Atilla`s comments are noteworthy. For me, they are basically incomprehensible. Perhaps you could explicate for us?" On the US Motley Fool board there was a similar contributor, a great prankster who wrote in the style of an African poster. Atilla is not what he seems.

"There is plenty of $ in that Arabian desert to supply Gaza and an entire Islamic border that is not controlled by Israel." Which entire Islamic border is that, Brad? The Egyptian border is controlled by Israel through an agreement with Egypt. The sea in front of Gaza is patrolled by the Israeli navy (which harasses innocent Palestinian fishermen on a routine basis). The airport in Gaza is out of action, and the skies are controlled by the IAF. That leaves the border with Israel.

"As the Governing body in the gaza strip hamas is doing absoulutely nothing to stop these rocket attacks on Israel. Israel should cut off electricity and then some yesterday!" When Israel was still occupying Gaza and the IDF were in full military control of the place they were still unable to stop the firing of Qassams into Israel. Why do you believe that Hamas would be more successful?

"IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi objects to large-scale action in Gaza because of the difficulty of operating on two fronts without massive drafting of the reserves" Pretty pitiful really. Israel's favourite, ego-boosting target, the helpless Palestinians, should only be attacked if there's no danger of anyone with real teeth pitching in to help them. What utter creeps the Israelis are. This is the logic of the worst sort of bully-boy. Who could be the smallest bit surprised that the entire world thinks they are the pits?

WHILE THOSE OF ANTI ISRAEL ALWAYS DO. This is blatant bias by the Moderators and not fair for a FREE AND FAIR TALKBACK MESSAGE BOARD FOR DIFFERENT OPINIONS when I have accepted all rights and responsibnilities necessary. Ishall try again to post the Message which did not appear because IT IS A FACT. THANK YOU BOYS AND GIRLS for taking note.

Finally, your post, and some of mine, have come out. Israel cannot do what the Lebanese army did, for the same reason that water cannot be cut off.

is not a cause of concern for Israeli gov. This is not normal. Name one nation in the world who would stand for this situation as the status quo. Israel gov are dhimmis and are kissing the feet of its American and Muslim masters. What other reason would they act so?

mo this gas field extends all the way up to haifa why not tap it at ashdod ?

the occupation of gaza takes place in 2006 according to toosofta? he avers this before deciding who the sovereign power is on the territory ? ill tell him israel is the sovereign power with de jure rights !!!!!! as the sovereign power it states this territory is no longer controlled from jerusalem but is to be self governing ! THE QUESTION OF OCCUPATION DOES NOT ARISE!!

I don't support communities who celebrate terrorist murder.

make it a permanent blackout.

No need for ground troops, just bomb the hell out of Gaza and begin with the Hanieh house.

The Palestinians never had a state. There never, ever was a country called Palestine. Those Arabs turned down having a Palestinian country of their own. They were conqered in a defensive war Israel had to fight, and they continually threaten and attack Israel. They are lucky Israel doesn't wipe them all out as they would do to Israel if the situation was reversed. They will never be treated as equals and never get a state according to THEIR borders that THEY want until they throw down their terror and their violence. Consider them lucky they get offered anything at all. It's a blessing Israel bestows on them.

Commission on Human Rights has no legal mandate to determine whether an area is occupied or not. The question of occupation can be decided only by courts of law, or else by the Security Council under Chapter VII.

What a pity the same cannot be said of YOU.

"International law permits aggressive rocket and artillery fire, targetting individuals and groups who are firing into Israel". Does I.L allow Palestinians the same rights? I find it funny, in a grotesque way, that Israeli supporters ignore International Law when the Israelis are guilty of breaking such laws and then point to them when looking for justification for their barbaric actions. So, Israel does not occupy Gaza! Like prison warders do not "occupy" a prison! They only control the borders, the coast and the air-space. Not to mention food, medicine and all other necessities of life - NOPE! no occupation. You did give Israel a "get-out', by pointing out that International Law only applies to "CIVILISED" societies. Fancy the Palestinians voting for a party which is not approved by Israel.....ungrateful lot! Where do they think they are living, in a democratic prison?

That means that now illiterates, too, can enjoy Jimmah d' Idjit read his own book. Henry Ford also made sure the masses had trash about Jews.

Fight like in a war. Enter and fight. We, you and I, spoke about it...

So, Israel's plan was "...the total control of the population". Why on earth would Israel want to continue to control one million hostile Palestinians? Further, if you take a look at what Hamas says, we didn't withdraw uniliaterally - they chased us out. At some point you have to make up your mind where our cunning ends and our running begins. You can't have it both ways. Say "Hamas overwhelmingly won those elections". Really? Last I heard, they garnered 44% of the vote in a two-and-a-half party field. If that's overwhelming, then what was Abu Mazen's election as president with 60% and who really represents the Palestinian people? If you want to look at economic statistics, I suggest you also take a look at those covering the period between 1967 and establishment of the PA. GNP, for example, grew at a phenomenal rate of 1000%, from $165 per capita to $1,715. The population grew at a whopping 4% per year (certainly an indication of ethnic cleansing and genocide).

Having read your post for a while, I am pretty sure that you are well aware that invading Gaza would be a deep pit of despair for Israel. It would lose lots of soldiers and would have its economy weakened by having to take lots of reservists away form their normal jobs to be cannon fodder in Gaza. And after getting in and not being able to actually stop the rockets, how would it be able to get out and stop the daily Israeli soldier deaths. It won't be a lot of dead Israelis each day but it will be steady, just like the US situation in Iraq. Of course the generals are hesitant to invade Gaza, because if Syria decided to take back the Golan, they will be fighting a two front war and if Hezbala decides to join the fun a three front war. Sure the US might try to help, but with what? All the US soldiers and equipment are totally worn out and the war production capability can't keep up with what the US needs let alone what Israel would need.

...had better get about it. Time is not on their side. "Palestine Peace Not Apartheid" by Jimmy Carter is becoming required reading in American schools. And is available from many Public Libraries in a downloadable version read by the man himself. Talk about getting an inside view. No wonder Alan Dershowitz went ballistic.

...I have a daughter and I would like to see her grow in a free society, free of sharia, free of your mindset, free!... Say hello to your daughter, buddy. Let raise her in an environment of peace, without a burden of occupation (including East Jerusalem of course) conducted by her (and her father) beloved Israel since 1967.

I don't even understand what the logic behind the idea of removing SDEROT. It never cross in my mind.

poor loser

All talk no action, and the ARabs love it - esp. Hamas and all their buddies in Syria and Iran.

...even the fakes indrajaya enjoy your reputation and are posted in spite of their moderate stances... Even If I quit the talkback this minute, I will consider it a successful because of that. Thanks. I'm a celebrity now, a TOM CRUISE of the TALKBACK.

...complete lack of intellectual integrity... That's why I'm here in the Talkback, Mr. PhD. Because I'm not a PhD. LoL.

I decided to give this a shot as I have posted and lurked on these threads for so long and basically read the same arguments made by both sides over and over. Clickfool and Hannah are so over the top anti Israel I am dumbfounded they even show up here. Ibrahim and some others are somewhat reasonable but seem to almost never acknowledge Arab fault at all. Jeff from Northridge, myself, and others take the pro Israel stand. Something in the interactions with Ibrahim made me wonder what 'Peace' looks like to the Palestinian side. For example, if Palestinian refugees were to return to Israel proper than Israel would no longer be a Jewish state and 'peace' would simply be either death for all the Jews there, another dispora or second class citizenship. Does not seem like peace to me. So, Johnboy, what is your version of peace in the middle east? I won't be critical of it like you were of mine. I simply want to get it out there for all of us to see. How close are we?

Israel has NO RIGHT to control, supervise or otherwise interfere with any Gaza sea port. Israel has NO RIGHT to control the Gaza airport in any manner what so ever. Israel has NO RIGHT to control in any way the Gaza/Egypt border. The folks in Gaza can import and export whatever they want, just like any other country. If they choose to import modern weapons, so be it. That is their choice not Israel's! The same with all the rest of your points. Gaza should be a completely independent entity that Israel has ZERO control over. Until you understand that you have NO RIGHT to control anything about Gaza, you will be stuck with the mess you have. What you propose is still oppression and the folks in Gaza have every right to fight you about it. You need to re-think the situation because Israel is reaching the limits of what it can do by force and the future will be very bleak if Israel doesn't find a way to reach a fair agreement with its neighbors.

You frequently comment that Atilla's comments are noteworthy. For me, they are basically incomprehensible. Perhaps you could explicate for us?

Media reports state, the final signing for the sale of Gaza's off sure marine gas to Israel, has not yet taken place. When and if this deal takes place, the Palestinian Authority stands to receive several million dollars per year in sales revenue. Could the fact that there has been no signing on the bottom line as yet to finalize the sale, have anything to do with Israel's stalled talks with Mr Abbas/Fatah? Is the 'action on the ground in Gaza' the second stage of the Israeli/American divide and conquer agenda? Will it be necessary for Israel to pay several million dollars per year for Gaza's marine natural gas if Israel just happens to 'acquire' Gaza's off sure assets, following Israel's 'action on the ground in Gaza?

Is it morning in the beutiful city of Sydney? I wrote 'mostly reasembles', not exactly resmebles nor resembles nor are the borders of the Clinton Barak plan. I think mostly leaves room for the negiotiation you seem to agree needs to take place. The plan is referred to as Clinton-Barak as there was no published counter offer from Arafat or any other Palestinian Authority official. Can you suggest a name I should use to make it seem more balanced? It should be a name that put forth a reasonable plan. The exercise is what is your version of peace? Mine slightly favors Israel which it shoud as I am Jewish and the son of Holocaust survivors. I don't think that signifies prejudice. I am trying to flesh out if the grass roots versions of peace are even close enough for any of us, Arab leaning or Israel leaning, to bother working toward. I think my version is worth working for as it essentially mimics all the most accepted plans out there. The big exception is refugees.

As a phsychologist, I can tell this man (probably boy?) who calls himself "Tosefta" has very serious problems. He is definitely frustrated sexually; compensating by "feeling" powerful on Haaretz. Based on his negative attitude, I doubt he'll ever recover from his sickness.

Your source for the Barak to Clinton quote please?

...of all pal's + arabs of Israel + acsa in the farmost from Israel muslim/arab/moronic lands. The peace will occure like a miracle right away. Why not contemplate this very humanistic approach instead of constant conflict. It seems your drunken mind can't accept that very logical solution just because it will mean that jews prevailed. Labra, I believe they will prevail no matter what...

Serious..Tried to set ceasefire? As far as I know there are no ones on this planet that stops them from stop firing rockets..Or force them to do so. This is not a schoolyard.

...they live in(for example Dutch, England,France, etc) support Hamas/fatah/jihad/acsa-in short the plague Israel must hurshly deal with on a constant basis. And in trues, all these muhameds are the problem-where they reside as well as for Israel. Regards to the real Muhammed...

Buried in the heart of the article is the reality that is facing Israel - Israel has run out of options after 60 years of ethnic cleansing. (1) if it cuts off humanitarian essentials to Gaza, the economy will sink under the weight of international sanctions. And yes, the international community will do it. (2) If they invade Gaza, they will need to call up lots of cannon fodder, crippling the economy and getting lots of Israelis killed. Oops, military oppression has its limits. (3) there is no practical way to stop the rockets. They couldn't do it when they fully controlled Gaza and will not be able to do it now. (4) killing more Gazans will just get Israel sanctioned if not invaded. (5) talking to Hamas about peace will lead to civil war in Israel because to get any type of peace treaty, the WB will have to be emptied of all Israelis and the settlers won't leave without a fight. So basically Israel has screwed themselves by believing they could use force to get what they want. Payback

Dutch - You and people you know have sympathy for Hamas? I guess that says where your viewpoint lies very clearly. Are you sympathetic for Al Quida as well? Hezbollah? My thoughts on commerce imply a free and democratic Palestine living peacefully next door to a Jewish Israel. I apologize if that was not clear. The hatred runs deep as you posted, so how to move forward if not commerce? Nothing will motivate as well as comfort and opportunity. How many eyes for eyes would you like to see? Am I assuming western values for the Palestinians? Yes, I am. I think a thriving economy can cure alot. As for your Aparthied comment, I do not agree at all. I wonder Dutch, if you, or anyone for that matter, will take me up on my challenge of a few posts ago and define what Peace looks like? A 'peace' that does not include a Jewish Israel within safe and defined borders is not interesting to us. Thanks for your comments.

Tell me the truth. Are you in a creative writing class? Crazy idea and mediocre delivery.

But who needs that rat infested place now. I would be for ground operation, but the pal's of Gaza must leave at once through Egypt and into farthest from Israel arabistan's. If that is not in plans, than no ground operations are needed. Destroy the beasts from the air and totally desregard any colateral damage. That would be my advice for now. Regards to the general, Fatmah...

What a load of malarke, the idea of increasing hatred. For if that happen you would all explode and have green hate guk running all over your bodies. So, using your logic, what do you think about the collective punishment of & increase in hatred on the Israeli side. Listen, when your government chooses to fight a war by targetting civilians, the state it attacks is not required to help build up its armaments. So, go kuk in the yum.

(a) Its filthy even before they cut off the electricity. (b) If they are rolling around the filthy gutter, that will provide you with some company. (c) Of course, as the British study suggests, you and yours are pure anti-semites, probably incredibly jealous of the accomplishments of the Jewish people. (d) Hamas wants traditional ways, the way of its great prophet. He has no electricity and had to scrounge for water. (e) There is plenty of $ in that Arabian desert to supply Gaza and an entire Islamic border that is not controlled by Israel. (f) Its not contrary to international law to protect yourself from a sadistic and barbaric people and there is nothing in international law that requires a state to participate in the homicide of its people. (g) Most important, HAMAS is actually turning the water on and off under the plan. All it has to do is stop the firing of rockets into civilian areas. How utter disgusting and transparently hateful your are to focus on Israel & not Ham

With wider implications than you think. AC: "Gaza should once again become part of Egypt. Why should they not take responsibility for what was once theirs." Well, first off, the Gaza Strip was never "theirs". Before 1948 Egypt never laid any claim to the land making up the Gaza Strip, and between 1949 and 1967 made no pretense at all to being anything other than a "occupying power" in the Gaza i.e. unlike Jordan in the WB it made no claim that Gaza was annexed and, therefore, no claim that it is sovereign Egyptian land. Secondly, if Israel (and it would have to be Israel) can hand the Gaza BACK to Egypt then the implications are that Israel's "missing revisioner" argument is, ahem, somewhat "questionable", and therefore so is its claim that Geneva Convention IV does not apply to the occupied territories.

For those uniformed individuals such as Leona bantering about violating international laws against collective punishment, as informed individuals they should know that self defence trumps the prohibition. The real question is how Israel should respond. International law permits aggressive rocket and artillery fire, targetting individuals and groups who are firing into Israel. It doesn't require that they be targetted while in action. On the other hand, a much less violent and probably more effective response, is to cut off electricity and water. There is no requirement in international law or any civilized system of law to provide enemies with the raw materials of your destruction. And remember that Israel is not occupying Gaza, except for one Israeli is not there voluntarily. If the law were otherwise, it would be a proverbial ass that needs to be ignored and would be ignored. Anyway, its not collective punishment. The PALS voted for Hamas knowing this would happen. Tough nubbies.

The first intifaddeh was not mindless at all, it is too bad it ended when it did...Israel was brutal in supressing it, but it definately showed the world the true face of the Israeli occupation, and I highly doubt we would have gotten the Israelis to agree in principle to a Palestinian State WITHOUT the first intifaddeh. I am happy you traveled in the West Bank with Arabs...at least you know what rubbish is spewed about them....they are not mindless murderers lusting for Jewish blood...They are frustrated people, not always the wisest, but clearly fighting a stubborn and greedy enemy in the state of Israel, which prefers plotting for more dunams of land before signing PEACE on the dotted line.

Just wanted both of you to know how consoling it is to read over the weeks on Haaretz your exchanges and persuasive arguments, against hearing people like Lieberman's mantra " land for peace accords with Arabs doomed to failure". Everyone has moved on already but where does one start with this guy? Oy gevalt!

Because to me you sound all very reasonable until you typed out this bit: "The borders mostly reasemble the Clinton-Barak plan of 2000." The Clinton-Barak plan. The plan that Barak gave to Clinton and said "Here, present this to the Pals and pretend it's your idea". The Plan that two names on it: 1) an Israeli 2) an American but most conspicuously doesn't have any Palestinian name attached to it. Seems to me that this is where your prejudice intrudes upon your good intentions; the Americans and the Israelis get to choose where the border is, and the Palestinians get to sign off on it. Which is rather odd, when you consider that the plan ACTUALLY involves the Pals agreeing that they should LOSE land to the Israelis; I rather think the Pals would like to actually, you know, have an input on something as important to them as THAT. What say you Dave? Do the Pals have no role in deciding THEIR borders except to be told "Hey buddy, sign here, will ya' "?

Sir, I am surprised to learn that you see exchange of opinions in military terms - quite removed from Academia. I answer your question directly. Following Sept 12, 2005 Israel declared an end of Military Govt. that administered Gaza since 1967 and thus finished Gaza occupation as per Hague 1907. It is also opinion of legal specialists of Israeli Govt. I realize that Abbas, Labras and some some politicized UN bodies may have an opposite opinion to which they are entitled. I understand why Palestinians want to be considered occupied- in political and monetary terms... Partial blockade of foreign enemy territory by Israel and Egypt is secondary and unrelated matter. Current Gaza Govt. is best democratically elected Govt and inhabitants of Gaza wholly deserve it. I hope Tveria is in walking distance to some Manhattan bar where we could discuss these and other subjects. Be well.

It seems that there are those who imagine that Israel,s unilateral withdrawal form Gaza was a windfall for the Strip.Take a look at the economic figures in Gaza and the effects it has had on life for Gazans since then. I am not claiming of course that Israel should not have left, merely pointing out,that part of Israel,s plan was to make a quasi exit and continue the total control of the population through "external management". This led to periodic incursions and targeted assasinations and general disruption of life on the strip. Israel, backed by the US administration called for elections, which hamas and Fatah contested.Hamas overwhelmingly won those elections and we know the rest.From there the three "Demands" arose which Hamas refused to give in to.Who can blame them. Here are some figures on the economic decline of Gaza since the evacuation.Blame who you will, but Israel is the number one suspect. During 2006 the number of Palestinians living in "deep poverty" almost doubled to more than 1 million. Some 46 percent of public sector employees do not have enough food to meet their basic needs, with 53 percent of households in Gaza reporting that their incomes declined in the last year by more than half. This data is contained in a report, released 30 August, by the UN Conference on Trade and Development (UNCTAD). It stated that an ostensible Israeli policy of "separating" the Palestinian authorities from Arab and world markets by restricting the movement of people and goods has "squeezed the economy to a size smaller than a decade ago." The Palestinians' reliance on imports as a proportion of their gross domestic product rose to 86 percent last year -- up from 75 percent in 2005, equating to the loss of 500 million dollars to the economy. UNCTAD also complained that Israel declined to hand over more than 800 million dollars in tax revenues it had purportedly collected for the Palestinian Authority during 2006. Because of this refusal -- the second since 2002 -- the authorities' revenues shrank to under 600 million dollars, half what they were in 2005.

"Steve Beikirch -- Will you be traveling to Sderot anytime soon? " Maybe at about the same time as you go to Gaza?

"There isn`t the smallest suggestion that the total absence of Qassams would lead the Israelis to lift the economic embargo on Gaza. They want to crush Hamas (who haven`t incidentally been firing the Qassams), and believe that causing economic hardship to the Palestinian people at large will do the trick." And they don't know much about human nature, do they? Palestinians won't blame the economic embargo on Hamas, they'll blame it on Israel. In fact, it will make them support Hamas even more.

What arrogance from Israeli officials trying to impose their will on the Palestinian people and blaming them for resisting their tyranny over their land and lives by launching an offensive. But Israeli officials are only deluding themselves today as peo- ple like myself aren't buying their schemes & propaganda. They need to comply with international law and withdraw from the territories and let the Palestinian people get on with their lives. Dutch

And when the israelis left gaza and left behind some of their opulence like the green houses; what happened? come on clicky you now what happened. Tell everybody.

Haaretz. Please printe no.1 & 2 my post to 140# Ibrahim. With polite words. Thanks

The election was supervised by their spokesman Pres.Carter who pronounced it 100% democratic. The Pals. knew exactly what Hamas's platform was -the destruction of Israel by Jihad and martyrdom. Have there been demonstrations in Gaza against the Qassems/Suicide bombers? There are plenty of anti-occupation demonstrations in Israel but you would probably rather die than admitt that the mantra "all Israel bad all Palestine good" is not the reality. What would you do with yourselves if you had to admitt that Pals have contributed to this mess?

Just a thouht Indy with a population of 245 million why doesn't Indonesia provide military intervention to the poor humble, defenseless Gazans.

Real armies attack armies. They don't gang up on defenseless people who barely can put food on the table for themselves andd their families and use stones & homemade rockets to defend themselves. This is criminal! Outraged, Dutch

So what have the Pals done with the billions they have recieved? Checked brother Yasser's account lately?

A time should be set that with the next rocket fired into Sderot, Israel not only cuts off power and water to Gaza, but starts a ground incursion to create a 5km no mans land inside the Gaza border. Posters here can spread all the lies they can think of (indrajaya) but it doesn't change the facts that Israel does NOT occupy Gaza (2 years now), Hamas willingly does not stop rocket fire into Israel to kill Israeli children, and Hamas and others are purposly using Gaza to inflame hatred against Israel and the west. Israel should stand tall and do whatever is necessary to stop the attacks from Gaza. Hamas is responsible for the conditions of the people there, not Israel.

Not only did Israel not renounce the occupation (which it originally planned on asking the UN to recognize), but it remains in full control of the Gaza borders: 1. Airspace reserved for Israeli use only. No other aircraft allowed. 2. Territorial waters out of bounds to all except Israeli navy, minus a strip of 5 km where Palestinian fishing is allowed. 3. Crossing to Israel of course under Israeli control (and rightly so). 4. Israel continues to control population registry. Only those registered as Gaza residents are allowed into Gaza. (The population registry is normally a function of government.) 5. Crossing to Egypt thru Rafa is also under Israeli "remote" control. European observers were enforcing rules agreed to with Israel. Egypt too. When Israel wants the border closed, it closes, as it is now. An occupation does not require that an occupier be stationed on every inch of territory, only that it controls the territory. If this can be done by "remote", why not? That is the way Jewish ghettos were occupied in the past. The occupier does not station troops inside the ghetto (sometimes, for fear of diseases), but can enter at will. Here is the news of Israel's plans from the time of the disengagement: "Israel will keep control of Gaza's borders, coastline and airspace and reserves the right to re-enter the territory at will." - BBC news, (21 June 2005) The BBC news follows the Israeli government decision. It not only failed to declare Gaza "unoccupied", as was the original plan, but reserved the right to go in at will, something you can't do to foreign territory. And here is a UN document from AFTER the disengagement, referring to Gaza as "occupied": Reports on Urgent High-Level Fact-Finding Missions to Occupied Palestinian Territories and to Beit Hanoun The Council has before it the report of the High-Level Fact-Finding Mission established under resolution S-3/1 (A/HRC/5/7). By that resolution, the mission was requested to travel to the town of Beit Hanoun in the occupied Palestinian territory of Gaza, following Israeli military operations carried out there in 8 November 2006, and was mandated, inter alia, to assess the situation of victims; address the needs of survivors; and make recommendations on ways and means to protect Palestinian civilians against any further Israeli assaults. http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/0/FDB14682D29B482FC12572F9004E72F9?opendocument

...WHILE the army is in a position where it CAN exercise that authority THEN the land must still be considered "occupied"... I usually try not to respond to a childish nonsense, but what the hell. According to your logic, Soviets where `occupying` whole eastern block from 1945 to 1991. Show me ONE source where it is indicated as such, although they had much more authority over puppet regimes there than Israel over Pals. ...The State of Israel reserves its fundamental right of self-defense... You`ve got that part right, nothing else. I have just given you something very simple to try & apprehend at your level. Come down from Tosefta`s levels where ever they are (somewhere very high in the clouds I think), you will see what I mean.

COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS E/CN.4/2001/121 16 March 2001 Report of the human rights inquiry commission established pursuant to Commission resolution S-5/1 of 19 October 2000 http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/5ba47a5c6cef541b802563e000493b8c/4a5fcb3241d55a7885256a1e006e75ad!OpenDocument 41. . . The argument that Israel is no longer an occupying Power because it lacks effective control over A areas of the OPT carries more weight, but is likewise untenable. The test for the application of the legal regime of occupation is not whether the occupying Power fails to exercise effective control over the territory, but whether it has the ability to exercise such power, a principle affirmed by the United States Military Tribunal at Nürnberg in In re List and others (The Hostages Case) in 1948. The Oslo Accords leave Israel with the ultimate legal control over the OPT and the fact that for political reasons it has chosen not to exercise this control, when it undoubtedly has the military capacity to do so, cannot relieve Israel of its responsibilities as an occupying Power.

Two wrongs don't make a right and it is criminal to punish innocent people by shutting off their lights under int'l law. Dutch

1. "What difference does it make if there were three separate agreements instead of only one if they are all now no longer in effect?" - JN First, if there are 3 deals, don't call them one. Second, when you have 3 deals, a violation of one does not necessitate that the other two are also violated. The deals with Egypt and the EU are still intact. And this is why Egypt closes its border when Israel so desires. 2. "I should have said "the Hamas Executive Force" instead of "the Izz a-din al-Qassam Brigades", but what difference does that make? They are both parts of Hamas` militant wing." - JN First, be accurate. Second, the executive force is not military wing but police. They are under the command of Haniyeh rather than Mishal or others. 3. "Haaretz reported that all EU observers and monitors left except for a handful of administrators who are semi-permanently situated nearby in Israel and whose jobs do not involve monitoring the Rafah crossing." - JN First, I believe they are not administrators but monitors, still there so they can spring into action if the crossing open. Second, there would have been no need for ANYONE if the deal with the EU was dead. They are there because the EU deal is NOT dead. Get it? 4. "The Rafah crossing was open more often than it was closed before Hamas took it over from the PA". - JN First, are you trying to imply something here? (God have mercy.) Second, my point was that Egypt did what Israel wanted, even letting Palestinians die waiting on the Egypt size. The deal with them is NOT dead, so Israel continues to dictate the opening. Jeff, you have an awful logic. Go see a doctor.

Long before the "occupation",long before the zionism excuse,Jews that were there before the Arab invasion. Why? because Islam has to rule. Read your charter.

I know a few Arab hags that have never been married or even had a boyfriend and they asked that I inquire with you as to how one gets to be a virgin for the Martyrs. They know that they only get 1/72th each but it is still better than nothing. I figured that with the vile posts of yours you are bucking for virginhood and you already know the procedure.. So please help these sisters of yours out and send a speedy reply. They are just itching to become one of the 72 virgins.

Hey Dumbite, you want to come play with me? I have lots of plastic bones and lots of other toys too. Got them as presents from Master George and his friends. We can also play `make believe` together. Thanks for telling everyone that I did a great job as top dog in Britain. I`ll tell you a secret; that Iraq invasion was a terrible mistake in spite of what you think, and because of that my Labor party actually forced me out office, but please don`t tell anybody I am admitting it. And that peace in Ireland? Poor George Mitchell had to work like a dog to bring it about, but I got the glory, because I am always a GOOD dog. Come over, Dumbite. We can play together, we will be friends. You are also a good dog; just don`t bark so much or my master George will tell his Vice to shoot you in the face. I only have one concern about you, Dumbite; are you comprehension-challenged? Why do you say: "You know the one where you try to get Cheney to shoot me". I am trying to warn you not to bark too loudly so that Vice should NOT shoot you, and you think that I want you shot? Well, never mind. Even if you are not the smartest doggie on the block we can still play together. I play with Master George so I can play with you too. When are you coming over, Dumbite?

I realize Hamas Fatah Israel all show hot cold peace war contradictory moves which are ridiculous but then that is the middle east RIGHT ??? I live in America thus am not as ridiculous as my fellow J*ws are in Israel but America threatens both sides if any more middle east wars happen etc RIGHT ??? Republicans and so Democrats push the trama envelope as far as they may go just wish it would break but alas neither side is strong ??? enough ??? to break it RIGHT ??? after what happened to Samson Goliath neither side even dares to alas only I would go Boom America is bluffing RIGHT ??? it is RIGHT ??? Hamas Fatah Egypt Syria Israel all weaklings RIGHT ??? ha ha ha only joking get the message RIGHT ??? nope you BOTH B O T H get paid off to make peace RIGHT ??? THANK YOU... M. Segal

Howdy Dave; That's the general idea for a viable peace to obtain, but the devil is in the details. If Jerusalem is to be the capital of both states, then it must be divided and not shared (except for access to Holy Sites) and how is the Palestinian part to be "connected" to the West Bank if at all? Also, the compensaion for Palestinian and Jewish refugees cannot be separated from each other otherwise Israel will compensate the Palestinians while the Arabs will not compensate the Jews. If compensation is to be paid, it must be done on a 1-to-1, pairwise, reciprocal basis. Since the number and property losses of both groups are approximately equal, it's probably best to just call it even and forget about compensation entirely. The rest of your plan sounds good though as a start.

I know a few Arab hags that have never been married or even had a boyfriend and they asked that I inquire with you as to how one gets to be a virgin for the Martyrs. They know that they only get 1/72th each but it is still better than nothing. I figured that with the vile posts of yours you are bucking for virginhood and you already know the procedure.. So please help these sisters of yours out and send a speedy reply. They are just itching to become one of the 72 virgins.

YOYO!!! What an absolutely brilliant idea!!! Isn't it just a wonderful world filled with Muslims like you that would like each Israel town to be removed one by one by one!!! I don't think that is going to happen. I think that If I were Prime Minister I wouldn't waste a good soldier, a good bullet, or fuel for a helicopter. I would just cut off the damn water, fuel and hydro. What about the Human rights of families living in Sovereign Israel?? Why should they be threatened by terrorists?? Shouldn't the terrorists be directing their rage at occupied territories?? I think that it is an act of war. Therefore if Israel just makes Joe Palestinian and Family very very uncomfortable they might question who they voted into power and makes the decisions for their futures and their lives!!!

As the Governing body in the gaza strip hamas is doing absoulutely nothing to stop these rocket attacks on Israel. Israel should cut off electricity and then some yesterday! why should the Israeli government worry about the 99 % of Palestinians in the Gaza when their own bloody government doesn't?

Two choices: 1) US, EU should work with Hamas, accept the election results, hope Hamas can moderate over time, as it no doubt would. 2) Form a new Palestinian group to replace Fatah, getting rid of all the corrupt officials who live in luxurious villas and have big foreign bank accounts. This might be the best, but it will take the most time. In the meantime, Israel should re-occupy Gaza, but concentrate on the border areas and not put back all the roadblocks. The PA should disband and let Israel take over the entire West Bank. The PA has become a dictatorship, and a very incompetent one at that. Abu Quisling should retire and go back to where he lived before 1993.

I was responding to post 142.My comment was made in response to it.Figure it out.! Tosefta,I'm involved in a project and will only look in from time to time.I honestly cannot recall the article.Maybe johnboy can be enlisted.If & when I have the time I'll do my own google search but not right now.The SC decision about ICT for Y & R is well known.The sohn article less well known.I wish I had either bookmarked it or noted the link.Sorry.But you can take it from me that I remember very clearly that he said the GA can proceed.Perhaps I am mixing it with his reforms as you suggested.That's not my recollection,which is that the unreconstructed GA has the powers . . .

It is not required now to bring in the IDF to stop Qassams in Sderot.Just invite Amnesty International staff and their children to live in Sderot for three months, ALL expenses paid. After experiencing rocket fire during this time, their approach to IDF solutions could change. They just might agree to ANY solution especially if, G-d forbid, their kids are affected.

Here is a quote from a letter sent by Weiszmann to Albert Einstein: "All the shady characters of the world are at work against us. Rich servile Jews, dark fanatic Jewish obscurantists, in combination with Vatican, with Arab assassins, English imperialist, anti-semitics reactionaries, - in short , all the dogs are howling". Source: The letters and Papers of Chaim Weizmann- Series A. Letters -Vol.XI January- 1922 - July 1923 -Editor Bernard Wasserstein ISBN 0 87855 251 0. -------------------- No wonder Mr Lincoln it takes all sshades and colours.

as the month of Ramadan commences Sept. 13. The Israelis, unlike the terrorists, would never launch an attack on a religious holiday as Israelis have morals and scruples (up to a point).

There are precedents such as the firebombing of Dresden by the UK and the US, where tens of thousands were killed in one night There is a "humanitarian crisis" in Israel as it is subjected to the uncertainties regarding life and limb occasioned by the launch of rockets and other attacks Why is there so much introspection and restraint among Jews when their own lives are at stake? It is wearisome to those of us who support Israel that the Israelis are so "lethargic" and reticent, when it comes to destroying the source of attacks on its people. Don't you have the mentality to become enraged and act before you suffer major tragedy? Can't you anticipate that someday if this course of events is permitted to continue, a nursery will be hit and children killed. And it will be your fault because of your policies and concerns for the perpetrators of these vile acts. The Palestinians are responsible for the consequences if they pursue this course of action, not you. Self-defense is paramount

Do you fools even care about Sderot? The paleos are busy not only destroying people and property there, but they're very busy destroying your identity on the Temple Mount! Doesn't that bother you-just a little, huh? Jews were butchered by the thousands over the centuries because of the significance of "Next year in Jerusalem!" What do you think all of those exterminated were referring to-the gay parade? Are you so bloody vacuous?

The time to initiate action is long past. If an attack of any kind occurs, if Shalit is not released, if Hamas does not change its charter, if inculcation of their children with hatred of Israel does not stop, then Israel should abandon its policy of restraint and cut off water, electricity, food, and other necessities of life. Media outlets, TV, radio, print, should be destroyed. The university should be demolished. That Israel would have permitted these attacks to become an accepted "way of life" is unbelievable. It is beyond bizarre. What convoluted explanations are there for allowing such attacks to occur without the most severe response. Don't you Jews value yourselves and your people enough to say, "No more?" Attempts to kill us or harm us are forbidden? Anyone or any entity that makes supports those who would harm us, anyone who plans to harm us, or anyone that attacks us, cannot coexist with us in this world, but will perish? There is "Zero Tolerance" for attacks on us?

What would placing Gaza under Egyptian authority accomplish? It would make it more difficult to target the terrorists, who would be operating under the aegis of another country. The Egyptians are less motivated than the Israelis, and the situation would only be more complicated. Israel should cut off water and electricity and other necessities of life, and destroy the TV and radio outlets, and other media facilities in Gaza. Allowing these continued attacks should cease, and a "Zero Tolerance" policy instituted. It is bizarre that any nation would allow itself to be repeatedly attacked and then be remiss in defending its people. Are you waiting for a nursery school to be destroyed in Sderot and children killed? Their blood is on the government's hands as it has been complicit in permitting attacks because of its policy of unreasonable restraint. Any attacks, rocket or otherwise, failure to release the Corporal unharmed, and failure to change their charter, are provocations.

Dave from Chicargo, I believe you are wrong--there is plenty of sympathy for Hamas and Gazans on my side of the Atlantic and among those I am in contact with in the US and around the world. I might add -- it wasn't Abbas who blew an opportunity but Israeli officials. I doubt if commence will really heal the deep wounds when the overiding issue is freedom. However, it can be a contributing factor. However, if the Apart- heid like system isn't removed it won't mean much. Dutch

Congress has a 19% approval. Go figure, and Bush is at 30%. Having said that, would you please go to Middle-East-info.org and read allabout the abuse of women and children.

I am glad to see all my work with you hasnt been in vain and that you recognise the need to reach out.Thats an important step Tosefta admitting their is a problem.Good for you Buddy.

Labhras, you are being attacked on the question of Gaza occupation by a number of people not able to deal well with legal matters. I would suggest to you to pick the relatively clearest situation (from your point of view). Do not get involved with the Rafah crossing being closed; this happened only 3 months ago. Do not get involved with a supposed blockade due to some supposed "war"; this only started when Hamas came to power. Ask your adversaries: What was the situation between the time Israel left (Aug 2005) and the time Hamas established its first government (March 2006). There was no "war", Rafah was open, things were relatively OK. Was Gaza occupied at that time or not? I have posted in the last hour or so two posts on why Gaza is occupied. Please take a look and carry on with the arguments. I might be able to join the fight in a few hours.

Israel is the only friend of the Palestinan people against their deceiptive leaders. By showing strength Israel showing the truth about those worthless leaders. There is no other way, unfortunatly than by showing how those leaders can not protect their own people; and made them starve,kill each other,provides them with no protection. It is a sad picture. And could be called unhuman , but what is the alternative? for showing the real and truth about the materials of those leaders,and kill the solgans and myths those leaders created to continue in their deception. A waking up call is what the Palestinians people needs. No such a thing the Palestinians will find from their leaders.. Israel is trying to do just that.

This is exactly the scenario that the Indrajayas wants to see. THEY MORE EXCUSES to fuel their bashing of Israel. They want Sderot and other kibbutzes to move out of the range of the "ancient qassana rockets"; and sent people to eat pop corn. As soon as Hamas smuggles katyushas into Gaza, with longer range and explosive power, then the Indrajayas will want israelies to move out of israel

When we distill down what our Palestinian appologists are saying, it comes down to,"Jews have only obligations (but no rights) and Arabs have only rights (and no obligations)."

Enter Gaza and do what ? Deploy troops and equipment inside Gaza and face the resistance from Gazans;resulting in thousands of dead people, demolition of homes and farms. Result, uprisings in the West Bank, the Arab countries and a huge military bill for Israel and more blood on its hands. Should Egyptians and Jordanian members of Al Quaeida enter Gaza and carry out Iraq-style sabotage and suicide attacks on Israeli troops, thousand of dead soldiers as well. Goodbye tourism, goodbye Israeli economic growth, hello recession.

Steve: you are wrong about the Irish not being kind to the Irish Jews. Apart from the Limerick pogrom, there has been no real trouble. There is anti-Israel feeling---the hotelier who would not accept Israeli guests, for example. But the Irish jewish community, although not as strong as it was, is still there. And Israel independence Day is still celebrated. Labhras, I'm off to Israel tomorrow so I won't have time to read what you say.

I know a few Arab hags that have never been married or even had a boyfriend and they asked that I inquire with you as to how one gets to be a virgin for the Martyrs. They know that they only get 1/72th each but it is still better than nothing. I figured that with the vile posts of yours you are bucking for virginhood and you already know the procedure.. So please help these sisters of yours out and send a speedy reply. They are just itching to become one of the 72 virgins.

Part 2 of the Israeli/American plan is about to take place, 'a major ground offensive in Gaza, the divide has already taken place, now all to do is to conquer!' Britain's Mr Major is in the area to see that things run smoothly, he has his finger on the pulse - Israel's excited pulse at the thought of taking over Gaza's maritime assets! Reports state, the final signing for the sale of Gaza's maritime natural gas to Israel, with profits going to the Palestinian Authority, has not taken place as yet. Still wondering why Israel is stalling on talks with Mr Abbas... why bother buying the gas if you 'acquire' it?

Hello Indrajaya, Once again , we are on the same page with our thinking! Yes, absolutely remove Sderot residents as you said they are closer to the border & it would be cheaper and less traumatic. That makes ulimate sense to me and I am fed up of them mak- ing a mountain over a molehill over homemade Qassams. Plus the Palestinian people are not going to be bashed into accepting Israel's terms. Why should they? They have their own aspirations as a people and have every right to elect those they feel best serves their interests. Don't you think it so hypocritical of Israeli officials to try and impose their will on the Palestinian people when their own people elected the father of Jewish terrorism, Begin, and a gang leader like Shamir, and a war criminal like Sharon to the Prime Minister's office? What shameful double standards they display now. Please keep speaking out and demanding fairness and even- handness for the Palestinian people. God Bless you! Dutch

Any country reserves the right of self defense and to do so can mount an attack on another country/entity. Authority to attack when provoked emanates from the right of self defense. The "ability" to do so or the "proximity" of the army to do so does not make an army an occupying power. Thus there is no occupation. Keep dreaming. I believe this was taught in kindergarden. No offense meant!

"being anti-Israeli does'nt mean one is not a racist". This is the gibberish that Zionists have been reduced to.

Believe me I am not a pretender and not Zealot- Settler.The Palestians are living in a Myth. Feeded with false expectations by their leaders who made this conflict as their business.The world dosen't care.Israel is only looking for its servival and rightly so.The myth of liberation and all that nonsense gets the Palestinans nowhere.The entire Palestinian movements bcame no more than a Mafia Movement. Those who are paying the price are only the Palestinians themselves. Israel will be doing a favour to kill the myth of Liberation. As Ibrahim mentioned in his post-140 "Israel is a Colonial Power". Colonial Power comes from outside the country and can be sent back by a 'Liberation Movement'.Israel is not a foreign power in this land & can't be sent anywhere. That is how the Pals.leaders deceive their people and made them live in a myth.With such deceiptive solgans,their leaders rule the Palestinians and made them suffer in a tunnel with no light and no end..2

Dave your idea sounds good. Don't give it the name of Barak-Clinton plan. Barak's offer was to re-name Abu Dis as Jerusalem and hand it over to the Palestinians, and at the same time hold Israeli settlements and roads etc under indefinite Israeli control.This is no offer - for more details plese read Tanya Reinhart or Gush Shalom on Barak's "generous offer."

Look the reality is, even if the missiles in Gaza are stopped, the Palestinians will try to fire them from the West Bank and if not from there then from Lebanon. If they can't do that, they will try to hijack airplanes and if not that they will shoot up diaspora synogogues. They will say they will continue until justice and justice to them is a Moslem West Bank and a Moslem Palestine instead of Israel. But, hey, maybe Abbas and the Palestinians will surprise us!

Punish Gaza for not electing the corrupt collaborators. Ignore Hamas' ceasefire. Ignore Hamas'offer for indefinite ceasefire. Ignore Arab League offer of peace anf recognition. Kill Hamas' officials. Kill children and destroy infrastructure, bomb families on the beach, kill more children in Gaza, Expand settlements in the West Bank. Starve Gaza and convert it into a concentration camp.... Cry terror and repeat all the above measures.

Sir, Military Occupation Authority/Administration IN Gaza was established in 1967 and terminated in 2005. No Occupation. Period.

Art 42: "The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised." Once authority has been established then the land is occupied, OK? WHILE the army is in a position where it CAN exercise that authority THEN the land must still be considered "occupied" It is not enough for the occupying power to say that it has decided it *won't* exercise its authority; it has to be a situation where the army *doesn't* *have* that authority any more. Partition Plan: "The State of Israel reserves its fundamental right of self-defense, both preventive and reactive, including where necessary the use of force, in respect of threats emanating from the Gaza Strip" Sharon had "reserved" the IDF's authority over Gaza by insisting that the IDF can go back in whenever HE wants i.e. the IDF's "reserved" authority "can be exercised" whenever he decides. Sharon obviously had a better grasp of Art 42 than you, Jeff.

Your Islamic Jihad brothers in the "occupied territories" should be thanking instead of complaining. If this were Lebanon, their "camp" would be wiped off the face of the Earth..."children" and all.

and other terrorist organisations!!! What a shocker! Then comes her SWEEPING STATEMENT -Israelis are guilty of aggression cos they don't protest IDF's actions. The IDF is to PROTECT civilians from terror acts by hamas, etc. What's there to protest? Do people in India (like you perhaps) condemn the army's actions, e.g., in Kashmir? Aren't you then slapping your own cheeks by "silently" condoning its "hostile" acts? Before and long after Oslo, Israelis have consistently been polled to favour peace settlements. Palestinians on the other hand demand blood, blood, blood. Like I said, they elected hamas terrorists cos more Israeli bloodshed was promised. BTW, there ARE NGOs in Israel that DO protest freely IDF actions. On the other hand, hamas has been busy lately "burying" protesters in "Clean Green Gaza". lakshmi can copycat reuters' calling terrorists as freedom fighters for eternity - that's her prerogative. I will call terrorists as such until the core goals change.

to the amnesty internat'l mindset: the Qassams are a form of collective punishment against innocent Israelis who have no way to defend themselves except hide under a table or leave sderot. qassams and their masters punish the citizens of sderot indisciminately, especially the school children. go tell the peace-loving arabs of gaza to stop shooting qassams cuz they are committing collective punishment against Israelis. what a pathetic joke.

ALL your posts are classics and GEMS. I simply enjoy you intellect, good sense and your way with words. You are a BEACON of Light on these dark and moronic posts from people that have no clue about anything even most likely their own names. MORONS PLAIN and Simpletons.

My third assertion:Why War?My simple reply to stop the myth and stop the suffering.As I said 'War ends up in Peace,conflict can go for ever' As you said "between a strong country - against a weak civillians" Ibrahim. Isn't War always like that? One side strong and one side Weak? Isn't that how and why Wars started ?Wars always start to put an end to a conflict.You yourself calls it 'conflict'. To keep the conflict going without putting an end to it,is nothing but wrong.Those who lost their lives in this conflict are far more in than those who might be killed in a War. The suffering and killing are less in a war than in an unfinished conflict. Yes,War is a bad name.But endless conflict is even worse.The Palestinans will suffer but at the end of a War the Palestinians will know where they are and they will start their lives from there ? The myth will die the realities will establish itself and both will have Peace & normal life as it always happend after all Wars.

Gaza should once again become part of Egypt. Why should they not take responsibility for what was once theirs. Dont most Gazans have Egyptian passports anyway.

My last two posts, which hopefully get put up, were to Ibrahim where I make a point that we are not really hearing each other. To try and get everyone to a new place I have a challenge. Define peace. Peace to me: Two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side with secure and recognized borders. The two states share Jerusalem as their capitals and have made reasonable agreements regarding Holy Sites. The Palestinian refugee's live in Palestine and were monetarily compensated in some manner for property lost. (Jewish refugees (1948-52)are compensated somehow by the Arab world although this is a seperate agreement). The two states focus the tremendous amount of brain power and energy that is currently being used to fight on joint economic projects. The borders mostly reasemble the Clinton-Barak plan of 2000. West Bank and Gaza are connected via a tunnel that can support both commercial and normal traffic. Israel remains the Jewish homeland, Palestine is an Arab state

Ibrahim, You say--"I`m going to go out on a limb and bet that YOU have never been to the occupied territories." As usual, you have sawed off the limb and have fallen with it. Before the intifada, I had traveled extensively throughout Judea and Samaria with Arab friends (that's right, I said Arab friends). I went to Jericho, Ramallah, Naublus and Jenine and some other small towns whose name I do not now recall. While there were definite undercurrents of anger at my being there, no one confronted me in a violent way. Thank you for admitting that the situation of the Arab population was better before their mindless intifada. Take my word for it, the situation for the Arab population will again be better as soon as murder of Jews is off their minds. Dr. Barry

Hamastan to Israel - QASSAMS. Cut off EVERYTHING FOREVER. Don't renew supplies till Gilad Shalit is returned home.

Amnesty International, like Christoph and CLickfool are fundamentally racist. WHen they start condemning the daily bomb attacks on Israel with the same vehemence as they condemn potential Israeli actions against Gaza they perhaps will be on the road to objectivity. Because one is anti Israel doesnt mean one is a racist but being anti Israeli doesnt mean one is not a racist. Shame on AI and Clickfool etc. racists you are but it is unlikely you care

There'll be no need for vacinnation's, a surgical strike will excise the Hamas cancer... As we know, cancer must be rooted out completely or it will return...Israel is fed up with the whining of the Kassam's as they fly to their intended targets...Barak won't bark, he'll bite...

Leona, To the best of my knowledge, he water, electricity and fuel are provided free of charge! If the Palestinian leaders, all of them, hadn't spent so many years lining their pockets with aid money and skimming from every sack of everything that moved in Gaza, there may have been some money left to build power plants and water pipes. NO ONE (except the residents of Gaza themselves) is stopping the residents of Gaza from building infrastructure. They need to stop listening to clan leaders and "sheiks" and start using the incredible talents they have.

people means, probably not Jewish and Lenny I was born in NYC and still live there. You left for amsterdam hmmm! Marry out? Dont believe in being Jewish? ashamed , to out dated for you, ah but you owe your existence to Israel and the Jewish people.

It was about this time last year, Mark, that you were hailing Israeli incursions into Gaza as a smart means of stopping the Qassams. To you, this was preferential to the artillery fire. Apparently now that the IDF takes up your suggestion, you deem it folly.

Every rocket from Gaza tells Israel (and Jews worldwide) that a Palestinian state offers violence and mayhem to Israel, not a potential partner in peace, commerce, etc. I know that you can counter that every check point, every soldier, etc sends that same message to the Palestinian people. So then, here we are, stalemate. The Palestinian people suffer disproportionatly to the Israeli people. Palestinian terror, when it is successful, is very detrimental to the Israeli psyche but really does not challenge the population as a whole. But, the unemployment, the lack of opportunity, the depression is really upon the Palestinian people. In our eyes, when given the choice between despair and development Gaza preferred despair. Despair because this is the result of IDF actions which our the result of rocket attacks, etc. It would benefit the Palestinian population so much to have peace with Israel. Can we at least agree on that?

"Gazans lose all human and civil rights at the hands of Israel." - Silvienne Madame, Whatever happens in Gaza is Gaza's business. Gaza is foreign territory governed by Hamas which apparently feels Gazans do not need any rights. Israel's business is to keep the enemy pacified with participation of Egypt, EU and US. That's all.

to make those choices, we live in plueralistic societies. Only an anti semite would think of the dual loyalty question, but Ireland and the Irish have never been kind to the JEWS. I know from experience in NYC. But not the Italians funny both Catholics.

...I'm not sure we really are hearing each other. At least not all the time. My point about not being interested in Peace was at the end of a question about yours (and Arab) acceptance of a Jewish Israel. Details to be worked out but could those words be used by you and the Arab world at large, a Jewish Israel? If not, I wrote, then we would not be interested in "peace". (As that "peace" seems to implicate a world without Jews). The comments about your family in Ramallah support an excellant point. I think you are agreeing that the mistakes of the past (regardless of who made them)don't really matter to those on the ground now. Something else I think we can agree on is that the view point is in the eye of the beholder. It is the ability to see past one's own opinion that is meaningful. I am as guilty as any of the posters of not doing that enough. The rockets are a big problem. They represent a threat to the Israeli towns that happen to be near Gaza. (more.....)

Howdy Tosefta; So what? 1. What difference does it make if there were three separate agreements instead of only one if they are all now no longer in effect? 2. OK, I should have said "the Hamas Executive Force" instead of "the Izz a-din al-Qassam Brigades", but what difference does that make? They are both parts of Hamas' militant wing. 3. Haaretz reported that all EU observers and monitors left except for a handful of administrators who are semi-permanently situated nearby in Israel and whose jobs do not involve monitoring the Rafah crossing. The deal with the EU is dead unless the PA can wrest control of the Gazan side of Rafah crossing from Hamas. 4. The Rafah crossing was open more often than it was closed before Hamas took it over from the PA. Its closure now is solely in the hands of Hamas and the Egyptians and Israel, the PA, and the EU no longer have a say in the matter. Why it remains closed is anybody's guess. Why don't you ask Haniyeh and Mubarak about it?

How's that one state plan coming along?

Amos Harel? Ya. So let me understand...these lil ones were playing chase near....where? Oh ya...near a just fired rocket launcher. So who's to blame? The "kids", or their "parents". Or maybe the slime that send these cute lil ones to retrieve the launchers. Either way, the IDF is not reponsible.

Since when was electricity a right? There are plenty of communities in the developing world that live very close to nature. The Pals can use generators and fuel supplied by the Arabs or others. They can build more desalinization water plants and so become water independant. If they choose to stay in Gaza, then they can pay the price. Israel must defend its citizens, and not throw away young soldiers lives by useless assaults in Gaza. Better their innocents suffer without services, then Israeli citizens suffer rocket attacks.

OMG I don't believe. Well, if they exist I am confident that Israel will either get them or put some together (with wholesale parts). :o) Now what do you have to detect tunnels? :o( Cheers, M o M

George Lechter, You have said what need to be said and done at once. One do not negotiate with terorists. They confuse goodwill with weakness, hence Israel should create hell on earth for every terrorist act. It is the duty of IDF and government to protect its people. Hamas do not understand spoken language all they understand is violence and that should be delivered to them in the most decisive form they have never seen before. everything else is failing and costing the people of Israel their beloved children. Turn the light off and start the onslaughter untill they understand Israel no longer play nice.

you dont need to try so hard to find apartheid because it exists throughout North and South America... try looking at the white skinned european origin settler invaders and compare their situations with those of the indigenous populations. there are reservations (apartheid) and all power is in the hands of the non-indigenous peoples.

"Of course I get posted when I screw up" Better than getting screwed when you post, Grace.

"But, as if on que, Hamas launches rocket after rocket into Israel." All of the recent rocket attacks have been by Islamic Jihad - nothing to do with Hamas. Rather spoils your rant, doesn't it?

What is the point of constantlyl giving back land to the arabs. It has not given peace. The only way to achieve peace is to change the religion of the Arabs. There is where the problem remains. Lots of luck at changing that one.

Barak has no business mouthing off what the IDF might or might not do in Gaza and neither the PMO. Only after the government had met and decided on a course of action, its spokeperson might come out with a statement. Furthermore, If anyone has taken any notice, the Kassam 'rockets' are the same primitive low yield devices designed to ire the Israelis, cause little damage and tell the world that the Gazans are still alive and fiesty. To stop these pesky 'weapons' Israel needs to improve the life of the Gazans to a significant extent , rather than shut off their electricity or continue to starve them. But Olmert has only mid brain left and Barak, well...

Silvienne, Miche Norman used sarcasm to point out that you don?t supply provisions to a country that is constantly at war with you, YOU HAVE JUST PROVED HIS POINT! Get it Britain Germany two enemies in WW2!

Labhras, you are being attacked on the question of Gaza occupation by a number of people not able to deal well with legal matters. I would suggest to you to pick the relatively clearest situation (from your point of view). Do not get involved with the Rafah crossing being closed; this happened only 3 months ago. Do not get involved with a supposed blockade due to some supposed "war"; this only started when Hamas came to power. Ask your adversaries: What was the situation between the time Israel left (Aug 2005) and the time Hamas established its first government (March 2006). There was no "war", Rafah was open, things were relatively OK. Was Gaza occupied at that time or not? I have posted in the last hour or so two posts on why Gaza is occupied. Please take a look and carry on with the arguments. I might be able to join the fight in a few hours.

The fact that Palestinians and there allies maintain that Gaza Strip is still "occupied even when the Palestinans exercise self-goverance and the Israeli military presence in this territory has been removed means the charges of occupation is less a rigid definition under international law but more a blunt political instrument to serve Arab diplomatic and military agendas against Isreal.

Pick an section of the northern border of Gaza, and an amount, say 10 meters. For every rocket fired (whether it hits anything or not), move this section of the border 10 m towards Gaza. Explicitly and publicly say that this is what you are going to do; that it replaces military action; and that the land will be permanently annexed to Israel immediately (i.e. not occupied).

When you denigrate my county and it doesn't sound like peace to me. Particularly when you are taking advantage of the freedom it affords you. Glad we agree on all the ME countries.

YOU ALL CAN NAME IT, NEGOTIATIONS, PIN POINT ATTACKS, FULL SCALE ATTACKS ETC, ETC. IT ALL IS PART OF THE END GAME TO CREATE THE "FACTS ON THE GROUND" AS PLANNED MANY YEARS AGO BY ARIEL SHARON AND HIS RIGHT HAND, THE PRESENT PM, OLMERT. MAYBE THIS IS THE WAY TO GO. WHEN IT IS DONE, THEN ISRAEL CAN SIT DOWN THE FEW PALS THAT ARE LEFT AND TELL THEM "SIGN HERE !!" AS GENERAL MACARTHUR DID WITH THE JAPS AT THE END OF THE PACIFIC CAMPAIGN IN WWII. ANYTHING ELSE, PEACE, NEGOTIATION, LIVING SIDE BY SIDE, TOLERANCE, IS JUST A FAIRY TALE ! DREAM ON FOLKS !!!

MOFAZ+AHYALOM ITS THE BETER THINKS FOR JEWS ITS TIME TO SAVE US

officials headed by Olmert , still live in that utopian world of Alice of Wonderland , thinking that , not the rockets falling on citizens of Shderot , but flowers , and candy. Especially it all sounds funny whenever Olmert , Livni or Barak try to describe their insanity , as some kind of deed to help their dear comrade Abbas , that probably is supplying the Hamas the coordinates , Olmert and his ruling monkeys transfered to him and to Americans.If you want peace -send the Kalambur tight skirted girl warriors --they will sure defeat all the Armies...

The ugly truth, Anat, is that NO ONE CARES except us. As a matter of fact, there are many of these talkbackers who are cheering our enemies on. Do not even bother with these people Shana Tova.

The absolute WORST President the US ever had the misfortune to elect!!! He just about singlehandedly gave Iran to the Ayatollahs. Lousy employment history, inflation ran wild. Can't imagine why he wasn't re-elected. LMAO!!! Persian Journal, Fars News, has a great article on Carter, read it.

The meaning of this sentence is that, like in Gaza, the IDF authority was established in 1967..." - Tosefta Sir, ... and removed in 2005. There is no need to split hairs further. There is no occupation of Gaza.

Is there no escape from the daily bleating of Clickfool, Labhras, Lakshmi, Dutch and company. For God's sake, there's more anti-Israel, anti-Jewish invective on this site than in all of Tishrin, Ma'an, Al Manar and Al Jazeera combined. Worse, it gets more childish with each day (just read ANY of the genius postings from that bright light called "Silvienne" ) Your Talkbacks are becoming redundant and you are actually running the Jew-baiting stuff at at least 2:1 over anything else. One would like to think that you actually have a reason for doing that. Either way, you are creating a great venue for all of these slime throwers to have beautiful exchanges with each other (and they are doing more and more of it) but you should also notice how many valuable contributors you are losing. I sure notice it.

According to the far left, and all the anti-Israelis, only Israel can be guilty of war crimes. No other country on planet earth can be so designated.

Now there's a powerful argument, ChanahS. The GDP of Gaza is essentially zero, and that just shows how useless the Palestinians are. This of course has nothing to do with the facts that Israel drove the Palestinians off their land into a prison with no resources, that they were then oppressed there both by Israel and by Egypt, that Israel blocks all their exports and imports, and won't allow them a port of their own... Oh no, it just shows the incompetence of the Palestinians.

And a rocket or two for all those who still think Hamas is a viable negotiating power or that any Israeli should have to live with the rocktets. Here once again, the Israelis act in response to aggression while Hamas tries feebly to deny they are the aggressor. Sad thing is, while the pals always try to make the absurd argument that all means of redress are right and true under this supposed "occupation", which by the way, has only been the end result of war brought upon Israel numerous times by pals and Arabs alike, if the rockets and suicide attacks ceased, Israel would have no reason to plan any invasion among other things. If however, Israel ceases all action tomorrow against Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc.., the same end to action could not be expected of Hamas, far from it. We have seen this time and time again. When you are only consumed by hatred as Hamas is (while the Israelis are not), there is no other way to deal with them.

during wartime silvienne you blockade your enemies supplies and destroy his infrastructure where you can !! this is the point hamas is at war with israel and accordingly should be blockaded !

Tosefta, I don't know what Lakshmi's problem with the UN is. The reality of the UN is simple. It was created by the victorious nations of WW II (which were called "the united nations" by some propagandists during the war). It was designed to accomplish a number of things, the PRIMARY one was to preserve the dominance of the major powers that won the war. Thus the veto. Anything that might actually HAVE to be done has to go before the Security Council where any one of the nations having the Veto can stop it. The GA exists largely to allow all the little nations to have a pulpit and pretend they matter. If something has to be enforced, the Security Council must do it. It can only do it if all the veto powers agree. The US will never let the UN try Israelis for war crimes. The UN displeases us we stop paying dues until it starts singing for forgiveness as a soprano. Uncle Sam has the UNs balls in his pocket and can squeeze them any time we want.

It looks as if the public is being prepared for what was pretty obvious during the "Great Syrian War Scare Diversion of 2007." It would appear that Olmert thinks Hamas can be destroyed between now and the noPeace nonSummit... Not destroyed but could be dealt significant blow, if handled properly. Besides, if you insist on being so wise as to predict an escalation at every corner of ME, you will eventually be right for once, I guarantee it.

Any solution but don't touch water and electricity. On that I will agree even with Clickfool. Can you imagine what this means if someone does it to you?? It can be done! In New York, Paris, London, etc. You and I corresponded once on this matter (what to do next). We thought that, if necessary, Israel army will have to go in (after a warning that it would do so if Qassams don't stop) and FIGHT. Lots of casualties on our side, but we would finish them off. The Lebanese army just did it in North Lebanon. Of course here it would be a tougher battle.

Qassams aimed at children, or any civilians, is definitely a war crime.

It is a desperate country, demographics, war, terrorism, and many jews are leaving for the US, Europe or Russia...pathetic really, this whole experiment....the jew like to marvel at the creation of the state, (which was ordained by Britain) , will they soon marvel at its loss (yet again)....wander my friends..wander....

We have read you message titled "Nothing wrong with collective punishment" with great interest! We have therefore decided to test your theory on you, your family and clam. We kindly request that you send us your details. Resepectfully, THE EXECUTIONERS o/b of The Israeli Mafia.

It's really nice of you to write here and be compassionate towards the poor Pals, but you don't always understand what people are trying to tell you.

They need "occupation" in order to charge "war crime." They know that if there is no occupation, then Israel is not obligated to give Gaza anything. They want to charge "war crime" for the simple reason that they are anti-Israel. It is all very simple.

Howdy Howard; True, nothing in and of itself will bring the Gazans to their knees, but every little bit in concert will eventually convince them to give up their futile Jihad to destroy Israel. In addition to imposing a partial economic blockade (humanitarian aid excepted), Israel needs to keep up and increase the military pressure as well. This can be done by continuing to counterfire the Qassam launch sites with artillery, air strikes, and ground incursions; developing a viable anti-rocket system; darkening the skies of Gaza with assassination drones 24/7; and fortifying vulnerable areas. Also, Israel can continue to lobby the international community to isolate Hamastan financially and diplomatically and take the offensive on the diplomatic front. If that doesn't work, then Israel can threaten the Gazans with what they fear most: reoccupation. It appears that DM Barak did just that by threatening a major IDF ground assault into Gaza which is probably not an idle threat.

Not only did Israel not renounce the occupation (which it originally planned on asking the UN to recognize), but it remains in full control of the Gaza borders: 1. Airspace reserved for Israeli use only. No other aircraft allowed. 2. Territorial waters out of bounds to all except Israeli navy, minus a strip of 5 km where Palestinian fishing is allowed. 3. Crossing to Israel of course under Israeli control (and rightly so). 4. Israel continues to control population registry. Only those registered as Gaza residents are allowed into Gaza. (The population registry is normally a function of government.) 5. Crossing to Egypt thru Rafa is also under Israeli "remote" control. European observers were enforcing rules agreed to with Israel. Egypt too. When Israel wants the border closed, it closes, as it is now. An occupation does not require that an occupier be stationed on every inch of territory, only that it controls the territory. If this can be done by "remote", why not? That is the way Jewish ghettos were occupied in the past. The occupier does not station troops inside the ghetto (sometimes, for fear of diseases), but can enter at will. Here is the news of Israel's plans from the time of the disengagement: "Israel will keep control of Gaza's borders, coastline and airspace and reserves the right to re-enter the territory at will." - BBC news, (21 June 2005) The BBC news follows the Israeli government decision. It not only failed to declare Gaza "unoccupied", as was the original plan, but reserved the right to go in at will, something you can't do to foreign territory. And here is a UN document from AFTER the disengagement, referring to Gaza as "occupied": Reports on Urgent High-Level Fact-Finding Missions to Occupied Palestinian Territories and to Beit Hanoun The Council has before it the report of the High-Level Fact-Finding Mission established under resolution S-3/1 (A/HRC/5/7). By that resolution, the mission was requested to travel to the town of Beit Hanoun in the occupied Palestinian territory of Gaza, following Israeli military operations carried out there in 8 November 2006, and was mandated, inter alia, to assess the situation of victims; address the needs of survivors; and make recommendations on ways and means to protect Palestinian civilians against any further Israeli assaults. http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/0/FDB14682D29B482FC12572F9004E72F9?opendocument

To announce that a nation is considering a war crime as an act of policy is nuts. Now even if a real `accident` happened, Olmert`s bunch of bunglers have framed Israel with a war crime... That is why he is not cutting anything until maybe `absoled with the permission`. He does not need supervision, simple quisling talk & act. Israel needs a leader, at least on the level of Sharon.

COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS E/CN.4/2001/121 16 March 2001 Report of the human rights inquiry commission established pursuant to Commission resolution S-5/1 of 19 October 2000 http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/5ba47a5c6cef541b802563e000493b8c/4a5fcb3241d55a7885256a1e006e75ad!OpenDocument 41. . . The argument that Israel is no longer an occupying Power because it lacks effective control over A areas of the OPT carries more weight, but is likewise untenable. The test for the application of the legal regime of occupation is not whether the occupying Power fails to exercise effective control over the territory, but whether it has the ability to exercise such power, a principle affirmed by the United States Military Tribunal at Nürnberg in In re List and others (The Hostages Case) in 1948. The Oslo Accords leave Israel with the ultimate legal control over the OPT and the fact that for political reasons it has chosen not to exercise this control, when it undoubtedly has the military capacity to do so, cannot relieve Israel of its responsibilities as an occupying Power.

.. and fear, and ruthless efficiency. Or should that be, "Our chief weaknesses include insisting on giving our enemies advanced warning of attack, insistance on using insufficient force and record setting governmental inefficiency. If the Inquisition had be run by the two Ehuds, it still would not have gotten off the ground.

Aren't you fed up yet with the lies they keep telling you. Do you know what Israel's GNP is? Do you know that your people have been living off charity for the past 60 years ad that is why you have never thought of or been forced to do anything for yourselves? What about all the billions poured down the Palestinian drain for the past 15 years - why have you not done anything constructive with it so that you people can have a better future. You should be fed up - with your own leaders who keep taking yu for a ride and you keep agreeing to go along with them!

If the citizens of Gaza can look onto the attrocities commited by Hamas'rocket launchers and be happy that Israel is being threatened, then they should pertake of the punishment accruing from such a misbehaviour. Because of their silence and sanction for quassam launching, nothing is wrong with collective punishment. They should partake in the largesee!

Each kindergarten in Sderot should house a prisoner compound for Palestinian prisoners. Every time a Quassam lands, the Pals will be endangering their own kind. They don't care about this, of course, but the world will be outraged at the rocketing of innocent Pal prisoners, and pressure Hamas to stop the rockets.

This is exactly the reason that Israel's attempts to apply moral,reasonable, progressive humanitarian and democratic concepts to its Arab enemies don't work - they haven't reached the stage yet where life is more important than honor, and where negotiation and compromise is not capitulation. One of the biggest errors of Europeans is that they expect the Arabs to react to negotiations, ideas, concepts that are understood by the West and would work in the West, whereas this is impossible in the ME, where Arabs cannot even cease violent conflict among themselves, never mind with Israel, because of the concept of "honor" and lack of democratic thought processes. Thanks for pointing this out and bringing it up here.

"A bit rich coming from a country that has spent the last 300 years invading, conquering and lording over various parts of the world." Yes, you said it correctly, using the word "spent". The British Empire ended after WW2, 1945. We are now in 2007, and Israel is destroying Gaza bit by bit. "how much Electricity and water and fuel did britain supply to Germany between 1939 and 1945" In case you didn't know it, England wasn't asked for any electricity and water and fuel between 1939 and 1945, because Hitler had the resources of Occupied Europe. So there is not any comparison, now is there?