Sources: Arab states may offer to repackage Saudi peace plan

Tosefta Cipora does not attack she merely puts her points of view. It is you who persists in condemning everything she says and you summarily debunk it. If you wish to reciprocate by all means do so,but not in such puerile way. So Tosefta, approval of her comments otherwise does not merit making fun you constantly indulge in. Feeling her posts are not worthy, to respond then just ignore them. I?ll wager Cipora?s IQ is probably higher than you can expect from many here, and who are not on a par her intelligent and intellectual standard. In brief Tossy it behoves you to become a tad more tolerant not only toward Cipora ,but to many others here who have much to impart in talkbacks.

Mubarak & Saudi's have both been emphatice about pre-conditions. They've set them and they're not subject to change. In essence the Saudi initiative is the only basis. It's not negotation, it's a dictatorial edict.

We want to talk about taking land by force? Maybe we should talk about the Haganah, or the Irgun. Let's not deny that many Palestinians were forced out of their land by the Haganah (their corruption didn't die off when they became the IDF) Maybe we should talk about the Christians and the Crusades too. I'm not sitting here and arguing that two wrongs make a right, because I am not of that view. I can not change the past for better or worse. But I do have an opinion about the current circumstances, and that's where I will express my view. (As every person has the right to do). And not making a personal attack at you - but you should really think about your comment re: condascending because I'm Australian. Don't forget which countries are Israel's allies.

their future holly book. But you are smart and understand it. Sorry for sbeaking in riddles, blease read my first bost again and you will find out interesting clues.

just for clarification - I am not singling you out in the brainwashing department. In my book, anyone who ends up believing in a religion or ideology strongly enough to allow all their views to be dictated has been brain-washed. They end up seeing the world through a narrow prism, where only selected facts, arguments and ideas are allowed through. In many ways, this condition is akin to being felled by an chronic disease. The disease can be highly infectious. It has been described as the religion-meme. This applies to jews, muslims and christian evangelists who fall head over heels for a narrative, postulating some higher being that personally cares about anything on this planet. So yes, I differ a bit from tosefta in viewing e.g., certain posts. Have seen many intelligent people whose intellectual abilities were seriously compromised by irrational beliefs. And don't be so defensive, even if singled out for some harsh words (perhaps a tad too harsh) by Tosefta. Just tough it out.

"P.S. I am actually gratified to have the command of English comparable to a US high school boy. Not bad for me. I was educated in Israel, in Hebrew. Good progress." I know you are gratified (there is no need for the auxiliary "actually"). I was imparting a genuine compliment to an obvious local.

Mr. Chachmeister, I do realize that my response to Cipora seems very rude. This requires some explanation. Cipora made my posts a constant target. It is a very rare day when she does not pick on these posts. There is another person who does that, and in reply I just put out some pre-canned post showing his lack of depth and wrong-headedness. With Cipora I had another scheme, making fun of her posts. It was easy to do since she lacks a sense of realism, and I turned her into a Martian. There is humor in this. In recent days her attacked multiplied. I thought a dose of realism is due, so this time I paid attention to her difficulty with comprehension. Perhaps I should not have explicitly mention its relation to IQ, although the relation is clearly there. I may have to atone for this, although my description is not wrong. P.S. I am actually gratified to have the command of English comparable to a US high school boy. Not bad for me. I was educated in Israel, in Hebrew. Good progress. P.P.S. I am not always right, and have admitted a couple of times to mistakes. In terms of Cipora, it is the sad fact that she is always wrong. Your sample is too limited.

I thought philistines and canaanites were all destroyed---the edomites and ishmaelites are still here(the arabs).God gave the edomites their share--arab lands flowing with oil;God gave the jews their share- a tiny land flowing with milk and honey....why is it that ....arabs coveting this land that was cultivated by the pioneer jews.if your ancestors had lived there for 1000 years-how come it wasn't improved in the 1800 something.

You are ever so rude mate! Why don't you drop all the double talk about "outer space", Mars and other people's intelligence. Your vicious attacks upon others on this forum shrieks 'lack of self esteem' why else would you focus so much on Cipora's IQ? I don't always agree with her but she reads every bit as smart as you and miles politer. Two common mistakes: Far rightists think that anyone that disagrees with them is a wimp. Far leftists think that anyone that disagrees with them is stupid. You present some good points, others not so. Your delivery in English is par with that of any American high school graduate. Hardly an acme of well-bred intelligence. But that aside, what the hell makes you think that you are unquestionably right (every time no less!)!? Stick to the issues in your (mysteriously longer than anyone else's) posts and for Christ's sake stop being so bloody rude.

They believe that our flesh and blood brothers in Mecca will give them Beace. We even do not need an indebendent state. All we want is all the Jews to leave all the territories we invaded 1400 years ago and have occubbied ever since. All Philistine land is ours. No Beace ever, only temborary Hudnas to get all the Jews out of the Middle East.

That you are not shrewd is clear to all. You lack a good sense of reality, so how can you be shrewd? But I am afraid you have problems on the intelligence front as well. And it is not only on yesterday (and many times before) when I made a distinction between "global jihad", which the US has to fear, and any terrorist of any variety, which should concern the US much more. Let me show you a lack of intelligence today, and I only do it so that for God's sake, you should know who you are and stop wasting everybody's time, especially mine. I will refer to your comments 204, 210 on my post #153: 1. When I say that the Arabs were a majority in Palestine, you wonder what was Palestine. Have you heard of the "Mandate for Palestine". That's what the area west of the Jordan was called. And the majority were the Arabs living in this area (twice as many as the Jews). Is it so hard to comprehend? Not for anyone but you. 2. I say, "Oslo process. Certainly the Hamas bombings in 1996 helped Peres lose the election to Netanyahu. But who murdered Rabin in the first". You can tell that I am talking about the failure of Oslo. To you, it becomes a question of Peres losing to Netanyahu. But what if Rabin were alive? He was Mr. security, much stronger than Peres, the renowned Loser. Get the connection? In was not Rabin murdered in order to stop Oslo? This should have given you a clue. 3. I say "Nadav makes no distinctions between moral sins and strategic mistakes." You see the word "strategic"? Then in a slip of the pen I called it "tactical". This gives you a chance to teach everybody something we all know, how bad the error was. The first problem I noticed with you was problem in comprehension. Is it related to your problem with reality or not? I don not know, but it will express itself in an IQ score which no doubt was much lower than you expected. No doubt, you found an excuse, tension etc. Look at your failed law studies and academic career and look in the mirror. PLEASE, do follow my mirror advice of #191. Do put an end to your slapstick show.

a muslim....the bible is 100% right.God Almighty told the israelites not to marry people who worship false gods(unless they believed in the God of Abraham--like ruth and rahab)---your grandfather,a jew, turns against his people(the muslims turn him away from the true God.Isaac and Jacob didn't marry canaanite women.....the prodigal son of Isaac married canaanite and ismaelites--terrible thing to do.

don't you even know that we're not all the children of God....we're HIS CREATION.if you don't believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob....you're not His.what are these evil things muslims invented-suicide bombs...do you do that in your country too? is that evil or good?everybody (not with right mind) is doing the bad things that you mentioned---IT MEANS WE'RE ALL GUILTY,but terrorizing the world for the sake of your ALLAH is not normal.

NOW HE HAS THE BONE,HE MAY BEHAVE, BUT YOU KNOW ABOUT DOGS YOU SEE ONCE THEY GRAB AT IT,THEY WON'T LET IT BE BUT WHAT YOU SAID MAY BE TRUE IT WILL GET IT TO HIM AND MAKE HIM BLUE DOWN NOW MR DOG YOU ARE GETTING INTO THE FOG TRALA,TRALA..............

just read the good book.

Cipora, I assume that it wasn't me, who you had in mind when you were talking about influential princes lending you an ear. A "prince" and a "villain" doesn't really fit well togheter, does it...??

Ivo, thanks for your responses, but I am afraid, when it comes to Likud, I am not going to back down one inch. A party that has become even too extreme for a solid right-winger like Sharon (he was no extremist, but he definitely was never a man of the Middle, even in his last months as PM), is definitely a right-extreme party, there is simply no "spinning" possible. Just have a look at their party programme and listen well to the speeches of Mr. Nethanyau and Mr. Landau , and you will know what's up... And with regard to the polls, you know, if Israel would be a "Hula-Hula" land (sorry Hawaai, no reference to you...), then it would be a different matter, but in a modern Western deomcracy, I assume that the polls are quite correct...

I thought that this was a forum for diplomacy and exchange of ideas. Never mind. Sincere compliments, like those coming from S are most welcome. Without doubt, he is a gentleman, and quite cultured. Now if I could only get one of the influential princes to lend me an ear, then maybe we would get somewhere.

You really keep on "working hard" on her... Who knows, one day...??

Dont give up your day job. Now back to the Apartheid State of Israel.

Nadav, did not recieve a response to my last post #159 or are you taking Kath,s advice and "blacklisting" me. I shall be terribly dissapointed if you are that easily led.

They may be seen as gvin' in to the zionist infidel with the US "big Satan" , wich arabs street certainly disagree , do not want to , Arabs leaders do not want to be seen by arabs streets as if they have ditched the movement of martyrdom operations - for a government that plays with words in palace halls, , , Arab League pan arab Honor , dignity should be quick to issue a statement of reassurance to Arabs Streets , , , such statement may lower down the rise of tensions and extremism in the Mideast , , , better stick to the old arabs ways than to drink infidels sweetened poison , , ,

You are not a bit pretentious, now, are you? A silly person like you calling me brainwashed, when I am one of the most respected and influential posters on board? In the future stick to worshiping Tosefta. He really needs it since hardly anybody agrees with him on anything.

The Saudi peace plan is ok as it is. Except for zionist extremists... Never give in to violent extremists.

That is not how diplomacy works. At most, goals can be announced, but not plans that are then to be accepted. That is diplomatic discourtesy. You would not understand since diplomacy is by no means your strong point.

Firstly I'm not your darling - but this time will put your condescending tone down to the fact that you're Australian.... I didn't say YOU mentioned it - but what's all the fuss about the mosque renovations other than theMuslim's religious claim to Jerusalem - which by the way until 1967 was a provincial little backwater town of Jordan. The Palestinians/Arab Muslims - with all their 22 Arab countries and some 30 more Muslim countries around the world (due to Muslim crusades mind you) are like spoilt children with a lorry-laod of toys petulantly demanding the one toy they haven't got.

"Israel was established on the basis of theft. The State of Israel is Satan's offspring - a satanic offspring. It was founded on theft from the first moment. It was founded on the basis of robbery, terror, killing, torture, assassination, death, stealing land and killing people and will continue this way, never able to exist because its birth was unnatural, a satanic offspring, and cannot exist among human beings...

MOVE ISRAEL WHERE ???TO PERU!!!!THE LAND OF THE SHINING PATH GORRILAS!!!!SO TELL ME WHY DO YOU NOT CONCERN YOURSELF WITH PERU OR ARE YOU ONE OF THOSE MARXIST THUGS WHO GO AROUND KILLING YOUR OWN???

NOW DOWN AND BEHAVE OR YOU WONT GET YOUR BONE TONIGHT!!!

Dear Maria, God promised Kanaan for you? - you cannot sons or daughter of Abraham, but you from Europe -imperialist,capitalist and communist. Go home to Europe don't disturb Plastinian.

Very, very ungentleman-like...

Chanahs darling, I don't recall mentioning that the Muslims are 'religously claiming' Jerusalem or Israel. I simply said that Israel constantly claims it's their promised land by God - yet the foundation of Israel was by politicians, not divine intervention. Furthermore, Israel was supposed to be a Jewish state - yet it doesn't obey Jewish laws. Then... I constantly hear 'The UN is anti Israel', yet had it not been for the UN in 1948 - there would be no Israel. Oh and since we're making introductions. Hi I'm Mike, a Lebanese Australian Muslim. My grandfather is a Jew (anti zionist Jew).

of the Arab of Eretz Israel/Palestine have not erred tactically; they have rather erred strategically, beginning with at least the rejection of the Peel Commission, 1937, into the UN offer, 1947, then for not having insisted between 1948 to 1967 on the establishment of their state in the disputed territories. The Begin-Sadaat offer would have led, if handled right, to an independent state. But, as during the entire period before, their leadership was still set out to annihilate Israel. They were simply not interested in sharing the land with the Jewish people!!! Upon the coming of Oslo, Arafat continued to smuggle illicit weapons and people into the areas under his control instead of collaborating with Israel in moving toward peace. In 1996 his soldiers opened fire at Israeli soldiers despite the agreement that all disputes between the sides will be resolved peacefully. And in 2000 all that Arafat offered was "NO". A complete rejection of peace with Israel!!!!

Whatever you call it: REPACKAGE, REFORMULATE; it isn't the nature of those regime to work on details of a complex PEACE PLAN such as this. They needs help, they don't know that. Corrupted minds won't succeed on this very difficult matters. I rather believe on CLINTON'S TEAM than JORDAN, EGYPT and SAUDI ARABIA. This won't go anywhere. I promise you that.

Let's hope this time all parties truly desire peace and it just might work. But after more than sixty years of waiting,you can't blame the world for giving up hope that there will ever be peace in these region. Will Israel's enemies recognise Israel as a sovereign state??? Your guess is as good as mine!!!!!!

God used the UN to create the modern israel.why don't read this book: myths and facts by mitchell bard....you need to know the truth and not lies.

there will never be peace in the middle east... PALESTINIAN PARADISE CAMP: we are teaching the children that suicide bombs make israeli people frightened and we are allowed to do it... we teach them that after a person becomes a suicide bomber he reaches the HIGHEST LEVEL OF PARADISE.

As the Saudis said, "Saudi Arabia criticized Israel yesterday for setting preconditions for Middle East peace talks and urged it to accept an Arab initiative proposed in 2002 and discuss details later." In other words, they don't consider their own plan as "precondition". All the details can change. Example for precondition: Hamas must declare that they recognize Israel's right to exist before Israel will talk about peace. In other words, there is no negotiations about some element, it must be done ahead of time.

Oh Mr.Labhras What can we do For you to make and Spread a happy wish With humour and Some sincerity To do what must be right, You have to be more bright, You lack vision no doubt, But remedy is at heart, You try,and try in vain To the det-ri-ment to My country that you taint, You denigrate without shame, Is not becoming you agree To you and yours, Much better to be If only you were Honest to all, You would not be demanding at all So,beddy byes to you And wish my prayers To come true Come true,and true And to see you humbled Would make us all Happy for sure And be able to endure Do not be so bad Just behave and do not Act as a jackass dear Mr.Labhras It can sure come with ease If only come with ease To be for the good all with grease....

And the UN has issued 321 condemnations of Israel along with 429 resolutions concerning Israel. But hey - according to you the UN is your Messiah. Looks like he's gotten bored of you in recent times! Shalom.

Make peace by committing suicide? Accept the unacceptable with people who have NEVER followed through with any agreements they've signed and expect them to honor this one? Good Grief Charlie Brown, Everything Israel has ever done in the interests of peace has been repaid with more terror, more murder, and more hatred. The Saud family should stick this "offer" where the sun doesn't shine.

Ivo, I am glad your post finally came out. I will answer it, but I also want to recommend that you read some book which will give you a background of the events. (My suggestion: Dennis Ross', "The Missing Peace".) Generally, I disagree with your evaluations from beginning to end. 1. The first car bombing took place occured after Goldstein. It was explained as revenge. And while Goldstein acted alone, the entire Likud, plus settlers, were inciting against Oslo. A group bigger than Hamas. 2. With Netanyahu one can see you don't know the details behind the scenes. So please read a book. Netanyahu himself said that he said "yes, but" in order to undermine. The Hebron removal occured only after the tunnel riots, months too late, when Yahoo got scared. After almost 21/2 years he did Wye, under great pressure, but when he came home he announced he would not carry it out. Note that Hamas does progress under pressure too. 3. Cipora is not right about Rabin. She only considers Peres' loss, not what would have happened with Rabin. And I don't know why you say that Arafat cheated. Do you think he knew what Hamas was about to do? Forget it. 4. I talked already about Camp David and Taba. And according to the Mitchel Report, both Israel and the Pals were responsible for the Intifada. You blame Arafat, tell it to the historians (and bring some evidence).

Ivo, I am not using the categories of sin and morality (with respect to Palestinian history) myself; this is done by Nadav, and I object to it. I called their behavior "strategic mistake". This is outside the category of morality. You may claim that their own complaints are not consistent, as far as the use of "international legality". Again, you are trying to look at it from some moral point of view. Everybody has a right to inconsistent propaganda. I look at the conflict from a realistic point of view, i.e., how it can be solved. I am willing to look at causes and effects, and if you have such issues to discuss, I will be happy to do so. The morality issues involve I will look at from the points of view of both rabbis and muftis.

"Unfortunately, when it cames to breach previous agrements and truces, ETA example, is much more suitable to ME reality !!!" - Alberto Alberto, if you don't follow closely the events in the mE, and don't make distinctions, you will not know what to compare what to whom. Hamas keeps its word. It may have to do with their piety, but that is what they are known for. Likewise Hizballah. If you noticed, Hamas is keeping the truce, and has kept it since before the Gaza "disengagement". It was ISRAEL which broke the truce when it killed Samhadana (who was recruited by Hamas a while earlier). Since then, Hamas returned to the truce and is still keeping it. It is Islamic Jihad which does not abide by the truce, and for the good reason that Israel is hunting it down in the West Bank. I think the only relation between Hamas and ETA is that H stands for the Greek letter Eta.

As the Saudis said, "Saudi Arabia criticized Israel yesterday for setting preconditions for Middle East peace talks and urged it to accept an Arab initiative proposed in 2002 and discuss details later." In other words, they don't consider their own plan as "precondition". All the details can change. Example for precondition: Hamas must declare that they recognize Israel's right to exist before Israel will talk about peace. In other words, there is no negotiations about some element, it must be done ahead of time.

Huzzah!!!

He wouldn't say where his grandparents were born. Calls himself a Bethlehemite. I have no problem being borderline funny, I know who my gransparents are and my heritage.

mike wrote: read your bible and know the facts?I already sent my response to him.hopefully,haaretz will put it OUT. if it didn't: we all killed jesus,we're all guilty.HE LAID DOWN HIS LIFE FOR ALL OF US, don't you know that?God used the UN to create the modern israel-the prophecy was fulfilled in 1948.

that BEFORE Israel is allowed to sit down, she must FIRST agree to all the Arab Plans conditions. It's clearly stated, as follows: Egypt: Israel must accept Arab peace plan before talks with PA By The Associated Press Egypt said Friday that Israel should approve in principle the 2002 land-for-peace Saudi peace initiative before negotiations with the Palestinians could begin. "Israel must announce first that it is accepting the initiative, then we start searching for a mechanism of negotiations, for a peaceful settlement for the conflict," said Egyptian Deputy Foreign Minister Hani Khalaf. The Arab plan offers Israel recognition and peace in return for full withdrawal from the land Israel captured in the 1967 Six Day War, plus the establishment of an independent Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital. It also calls for allowing Palestinian refugees the right to return to homes in Israel.

That's odd, Mubarak and the Saudi's have have stated otherwise. What part of English don't you understand, refer to par 2... The pre-conditions follow:Egypt: Israel must accept Arab peace plan before talks with PA By The Associated Press Egypt said Friday that Israel should approve in principle the 2002 land-for-peace Saudi peace initiative before negotiations with the Palestinians could begin. "Israel must announce first that it is accepting the initiative, then we start searching for a mechanism of negotiations, for a peaceful settlement for the conflict," said Egyptian Deputy Foreign Minister Hani Khalaf. The Arab plan offers Israel recognition and peace in return for full withdrawal from the land Israel captured in the 1967 Six Day War, plus the establishment of an independent Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital. It also calls for allowing Palestinian refugees the right to return to homes in Israel.

It's really strange that I have yet to see anyone who disparages the Jewish claim on this land based on the bible and his religious beliefs apply the same scorn and disdain on a Moslem for claiming his "right" to Jerusalem or to pray in the Mosques or to do what the hell he likes with the Mosque area based on its holiness to Islam - despite the fact that Jerusalem is not ever mentioned in the Koran and it's based on a refrence to a "distant city". I find this very interesting indeed! (and by the way, I'm not a religious right wing criminal fanatic facist settler).

"Tosefta tells us that Mubarak`s position is "accept" the plan, then come to negotiate. But that is the whole point: if Israel accepts the Saudi plan as is, then what is there to negotiate?" - Cipora Here you show your Martian origins, Cipora. Martians don't really negotiate because they love war; that's why they worship the god of war Mars. But here on Earth, our minds work slightly differently: We say: If Israel accepts the Saudi plan as is, what is there to negotiate? But since the Saudis DO invite Israel to negotiate, we conclude: Aha, "accepting" the plan does NOT mean accepting every detail; it means that the plan is some basis for negotiations.

Maria hate to burst your "bubble" but try the following. In May 1990 James Baker at the Annual convention of AIPAC laid out the following requirements for Peace. "Now is the time to lay aside once and for all the unrealistic vision of a Greater Israel...Forswear annexation. Stop settlement activity. Reach out to the Palestinians as Neighbours who deserve political rights." Israel behaved itself for a while but a resumption of confisgation provoked the following Whitehouse Statement in late 1991. "The United States has opposed and will continue to oppose, settlement activity in territories occupied in 1967, which remain an obstacle to peace. Bush Snr witheld 400 million dollars from daily aid package and loan gaurentees. So you see maria Israel was stealing that land and much more in many other places and for many years. You must be a very naive young person or a not very wise or mature older one to have been so easily hoodwinked.Open up your curiosity pores.

If I had a hammer I?d hammer in the morning I?d hammer in the evening All over this land I?d hammer out danger, I?d hammer out a warning I?d hammer out love between my brothers and my sisters All over this land And try especially over Tosefta head?s on clover All his feat and bother, All over to the end He could go and beat the band, If I had a hammer I could do it without warning Each day and in the morning, I?d sing out the danger His being in the blender His followers declaring You are useless,filtering Unwanted Saudi bartering, No need for you and us, To begin and saying thus. Thus,and thus,and thus Every time you tell us plus

You peole must come to a close before someone else does it for you. The people in this country are sick of hearing why the Jews Can't do this or that. My news shows the Jews killing the PA,,the fience,,,and asking the US to give MORE MONEY. the answer is NO! Don't push it.

Why does every Jew constantly say "The Promised Land". Israel was created by the UN - not by the Messiah. And to 'Brod' - "Read your Bible and know the facts?" Since when was politics based on the Bible? If historians and politicians were to use that as a reference, then Jews would be prosecuted by Christians for murdering Christ. But it doesn't work that way. It's quite simple really if you look at it, you detach politics from religion and it becomes so simple. Detach Fundamentalism from Islam and Zionism from Judiasm and you have two beautiful religions based on peace and respect. And then you manage to live in peace.

Are you holdng out on me Kathy. Make with the cash.

I think you're reading the Israeli political map a bit extremely & you're far too alarmed. From where are your sources on the present aims of Likud & on the polls? Sharon moved to the center, he modified his earlier stances & changed on substantial matters, actually in the end did & said for him unbelievable things. The Isr. electorate has likewise moved toward center, from both sides, over the last few years acc. to commentators etc. People are fed up, disillusioned, that's why you need something really believable & solid to turn the tide.

That was NOT an openning doccument it was for Israel take it all unchanged and then the Arabs would BEGIN negotiations with the Pals. It was all here in Haaretz. We may not all be left wing intellectuals but we can read.

- in -67. The Arab countries rejected it. Hamas undermined the Oslo process vehemently from the very start & long before -96. Also, Goldstein had nothing to do w/it, he acted alone & represented no threat to the process as such. Netanyahu actually furthered the Oslo accords, he did Wye & it was he who left Hebron. He acknowledged Oslo publicly right from the start after winning the elections. By the way, Cipora is right about Rabin. He would never had continued w/Arafat once he'd seen the cheat appearent. That's just nonsense Arafat knew how to use after R.'s death. Arafat rejected C.David, pulling right of return out of the hat & giving no counter-offer, & started the Intifada. Guess why the elections went as they did. You think the Saudi offer at this point is realistic? W/the insistence on the right of return I'd say it's rather ridiculous, for sure no better than the roadmap. Regards, -

presumably we understand this lady is not presidential material.

is a great achievemnet for Peace ,more especially from Mr Ian Paisley the strongman of the past who swear NEVER to sit with the catholics, and Jerry Adams representing the political side of the IRA. If PEACE is to be achieved then one have to sit with his worst enemy, and sincerely/honestly negociate a peaceful settlement for all their constituents, rather than brushing off every sincere TALKS, to Palestinian Hamas,Lebanese Hizbolla and the Syrians. Hamas and Hizbolla, both organisations have their POLITICAL WINGS (TALK TO THEM) as well as their MILITARY WINGS, and ISRAEL has in fact, for the time being, THREE wings :-The GOVERNMENT, The MILITARY and the SETTLERS MOVEMENT. Mr Olmert should try his best for peace as there is presently, a great opportunity from the Arabs side, that are working feverishly to accomodate the wish of the Israeli Govt.by even modifying their PEACE INITIATIVE. Its either a 2 States or a BINATIONNAL State, the choice is yours SIR.

Better the devil you know won't nuke you (Israel) than the one who just might (Iran)

Hi Tosefta, - I believe a few corrections to your post are needed. It's interesting you're using the terms "moral" & "sins". No doubt the Arabs in Mandatory Palestine were fearful & suspicious. Some. Some were not & there was peaceful coexistence as well. With ignorance & fears being whipped up on both sides, the war is what you got, & it's no big wonder. Later, what is moral & what legal & which of the two is made overall important seems to have been used, espec. by the Arabs, when convenient & expedient. The war in -47/48 was one huge rebellion against international legality as far as all the Arabs are concerned, one held consistently till end of -80s/beg. of -90s by the Pals, & actually till 2002 by the Arabs as a whole. That's interesting. don't you think, considering the love of intern. legality being show-cased so fervently for the last 3-4 decades? Even Hannah Ashrawi has admitted it was a mistake not to accept partition in -47. Gaza & the W.Bank were offered back - cont.

If Arabs had genuinely wanted to help pals in their countries they would have absorbed them . Arabs led by the nose by the spirit of islam are 100% intent on the annihilation of first the saturday then the sunday people's of the earth , obeying the commands of their koran , hadith and moon god prophet muhammed .

is as good as your war making ability.a trifle wanting.

its better than getting into the roadmap etc and cut to the chase.Let the Arabs present their plan as they like, let Israel present its plan as they like and take it from there.No doubt the end result will look like Taba geneva.With the close involvement of influential and moderate arab leaders, if a deal can be struck Abbas would have alot of support in the show down with hamas.Lets "call their bluff" and enter into negotiations.Alot of the verbiage is just image and pandering to the "sacred cows" of the Arab delusions.Once they get down to buisness things change.Lets mach a move, and get out of the ME.Olmert Yallah! Ten Gas Chabibi! Rotziim ha baytah kfar!!

is that what you call them.amazing

Why is it that "Hoods" always think they are saints.

Ivo, thanks very much for your first response, I will read the other ones by tomorrow. Unfortunately I have to get up very early tomorrow morning, so I have to get some sleep. I appreciate your reasonable writing. To be continued.

seeing some posts here i understand your exasperation with the "moonie' posters (or, to paraphrase you - "space cadets"). True, ciporah does not do "reasoned' very well, but I tend to attribute it to the brain washing she was subjected to when succumbing to religous texts, perhaps at an impressionable age. her faith in a version of absolute judaism is no doubt a source of spiritual sustenance, but clearly not the best foundation for rational discourse. Anyways, maybe a bit of compassion foe those whose need to believe overcomes homo sapiens' quest for reason (high level reasoning skills being a bit tenuous for most humans anyways)? Question; what tempts you to reply, knowing exactly what line of "argument" you'll find? I am asking because new as i am here, I find the pull of the swamp thing too tempting to resist at times...

As the Saudis said, "Saudi Arabia criticized Israel yesterday for setting preconditions for Middle East peace talks and urged it to accept an Arab initiative proposed in 2002 and discuss details later." In other words, they don't consider their own plan as "precondition". All the details can change. Examples for precondition: Hamas must declare that they recognize Israel's right to exist before Israel will talk about peace. In other words, there is no negotiations about some element, it must be done ahead of time.

yourself? move to new ground so we can have a laugh.

dont let the bastards get you down.

& even that has been half given up after the war in Lebanon. The Greater Israel dream has been largely abandoned - that's old news - & so has transfer. Polls are shifty, Dino, I wouldn't give them too much weight, & wouldn't be too worried about Israel's politicians either. Olmert isn't the only one to consider, there are enough people, espec. on the left who are ready to deal along the lines of Geneva, as I've been saying, once there is a credible offer, olmert would have to take on it seriously even if only to survive politically. After all, Kadima tore itself apart from Likud & it has former Labor people in it (remember the Geneva accords? They were supported even by people from the Likud). We'll see what the Arab League & also the Americans eventually cook up.

"Bush has correctly defined the dangerous groups "terror organizations of global reach." Now this is the definition of global jihadists. Hamas and Hizbollah do not belong." Yesterday I made the following statement: "You claimed in #159 that Hizbollah and Hamas are not jihadists. Then you claimed that Iran is not into global jihad. By your own definition in #182, global jihad is a threat posed to Western civilization....You probably think that in order to pose a threat to Western civilization, terror attacks have to take place on Western soil. That is not the case. The ME is the single most important strategic world asset because of its oil and gas reserves and because it straddles three continents. Attempts by Iran to destabalize the region is a threat to world peace. The ayatollahs do believe in jihad." In yesterday's statement I simply said that Hamas and Hizbollah are jihadists, which they are. I also said that Iran is into global jihad, as is it is. Stop manipulating.

...has not even been cut, and the game has not even been announced. No one is talking about pre-conditions.When you start negotiations, you must have an opening document.

Well, 1st, what I said was "not shouting hurray at any vague formulation", not "offer", & there is no new offer as of today. Further, I read Olmert's softening down of Rice as just a statement to media as to not taking her words about the US initiative too far at this pont. These things don't mean much, it's a very early stage of whatever the US is up to. Remember there has been upheaval on upheaval in a row, all the way from Arafat's death till the present. There was a certain anticipation leading up to the Pal. elections a year ago, then Sharon collapses (no small thing in Israel!), & Hamas wins the vote. The Fatah & PA had been signalling a decisive change in direction at the time, then Hamas' win took the whole thing down the drain again. I don't quite get it, you seeing Israel as consistently intransigent & the Pals coming w/these great offers in a row for the past 3 years...??? The only alternative to a fair deal, from Israel's point of view, is unilateral separation - cont.

Musa, i'm assuming you're a muslim and haven't read the gospels. The Christian Bible is God breathed and is His word to all of mankind, even for the Muslims and the Jews. Jesus said that their will never be peace on Earth until he returns and in fact in the last days, there will be wars, rumors of wars, terrorism, diseases, earthquakes, etc... sounds like today doesn't it. Pick up a Bible my friend and read the true word of God. In the meantime put your trust and faith in Christ and He'll change your life. Matthew 24:4-8: 4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Hello *Ibn Musa Absolutely correct.Seeing is believing,words are just like pouring water through a sieve and not to be taken seriously. If these lot think some people would swallow such utter rubbish without any substance and with more of the same,nothing will come of it, and under the circumstances never will Like you I say:PROMISES,PROMISES........... Nice post thanks,we need cheering a bit....

The Likud party today is a right-extreme party, there can not be the slightest doubt about that (Imagine, a party that was even getting too far right for Sharon). And it is clearly the long term goal of this Likud leadership under Nethanyau to expand the settlements all over the West Bank, and thereby expel the Palestinians to Jordan. They make no secrets of their intentions. And now Israelis want to vote such a party into power...?? And then you wonder why people are asking themselves: What the heck is going on in Israel...??

myth: jerusalem is an arab city. fact: jews have been living in jerusalem continuiously for nearly two millenia. they have constituted the largest single group of inhabitants there since the 1840's.jerusalem contains the western wall of the temple mount, the holiest site in judaism. jerusalem was never the capital of any arab entity. in fact, it was a backwater of most of arab history.jerusalem never served as a provincial capital under muslim rule nor was it ever a muslim cultural center. for jews, the entire city is sacred, but muslims revere a site-the dome of the rock-not the city.population in 1844-jews,7,120;muslims,5000;christians,3,390. don't blame me....blame the history book.

dvora hello I noticed some people sending messages to eric.Now I know why there were no responses from him.You see dvora,I don't read many but only the ones I favour. Too time consuming and waiting for Haaretz to decide when they'll put it out. Mostly I cannot be bothered.But,when I sow yours just now.I couldn't help reading it, which not only gave me a good LAUGH but also enjoyed your amusing response. Thank You

deference you know.noblesse oblige.

that they have a love for hacking heads on friday afternoons makes them all the more lovely and endearing to ali.this tosefta is a strange bird.very strange indeed.

Cipora, I must admit, I didn't know first what you meant with Uria Heep (I only knew the 70's Rock group Uriah Heep...). But I made myself a bit "smart" now (good old wikipedia) and found out that this is a figure in the Charles Dickens roman "David Copperfield". And what a figure. You really wanna compare me with a villain...?? Not very lady-like I must say. To be honest, very, very "unlady-like"...:)

The Saudi peace initiative offers Israel recognition and permanent peace with all Arab countries in return for: 1. full Israeli withdrawal from lands captured in the 1967 Six-Day War. 2. It also calls for setting up a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital and 3. allowing Palestinian refugees to return to former homes in Israel. The Arab leaders insist Israel accept the initiative in principle before returning to any talks. If these are not preconditions, then how do you define preconditions?

The Saudi peace initiative offers Israel recognition and permanent peace with all Arab countries in return for: 1. full Israeli withdrawal from lands captured in the 1967 Six-Day War. 2. It also calls for setting up a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital and 3. allowing Palestinian refugees to return to former homes in Israel. The Arab leaders insist Israel accept the initiative in principle before returning to any talks. If these are not preconditions, then how do you define preconditions?

Please do note that a ceasefire/truce came before the agreement finally had been reached !!! Therefore I salute your initiative. Unfortunately, when it cames to breach previous agrements and truces, ETA example, is much more suitable to ME reality !!! P.S. I would like to draw you attention to present Spanish reaction toward this organisation !!

"first you accept the proposals then we can talk"prince saud ben corruption huh?

antisemites?yours in etc

"Egypt said Friday that Israel should approve in principle the 2002 land-for-peace Saudi peace initiative before negotiations with the Palestinians could begin. "Israel must announce first that it is accepting the initiative, then we start searching for a mechanism of negotiations, for a peaceful settlement for the conflict," said Egyptian Deputy Foreign Minister Hani Khalaf." - Haaretz (March 23rd) One can draw some obvious conclusions from this. And here is an even clearer SAUDI statement: "Saudi Arabia criticized Israel yesterday for setting preconditions for Middle East peace talks and urged it to accept an Arab initiative proposed in 2002 and discuss details later. "We only hear of conditions from Israel about everything, but no acceptance. You cannot have negotiations like that. You accept the proposals, then you talk about this," Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud al-Faisal said at a news conference with visiting European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana. "This seems a ludicrous way of doing business."" ? Haaretz (March 15th)

he is away today.he is doing some advanced studies.it involves the jewishtribalreview site.one of the most racist jew hating stations on the net. eric dont stay up too late.

"Certainly the Hamas bombings in 1996 helped Peres lose the elections to Netanyahu. But who murdered Rabin in the first place?" What an amazing non sequitor. The bombings, not Rabin's murder, put an end to negotiations since Peres lost the elections. Do you really think that Rabin, whom Kissinger called the best analytical thinker he had ever known, that this Rabin would have just given the keys to the kingdom to Arafat. "I would say that Arafat was quite shrewed to reject the Camp David offer." Even a one year old can say "no," and does so since he does not understand the consequences of saying no. Yes, Arafat was quite shrewed: he always carried a gun.

Nadav. Please read.I wouldn?t respond to that Labhras if I were you(your decision of course). He is an Arab agitator,and he not only hates Israel but the Jews in general. He makes his living as an ISMer and he does it gladly,not for love,but for utter hate for our people.What is more I think he has Nazi tendencies! I would not care so much,if only he didn?t insinuate with so many lies that he promotes here.He even attacked little maria, who poor thing loves Israel so much,that she fights for us ?tooth and nail? to promote the Justice of the Jews to live in our TRUE LAND.She is a lovely girl,very religious but although in the Christian way,she gets it all from our Holy Bible,and swears by it . Anyway Nadav,I sent you a response,but they didn?t put it out. This is just a short one to make amends for the one I lost. Which doesn?t mean this one will be put out.but,hope remains eternal. Shalom

Telling Israel to do as instructed or else was doomed to failure but in the bazaar mentality it was worth a try.

I have never quite understood the world?s fixation with 1967. Prior to June 1967, the Arab nation held the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and Eastern Jerusalem with its Jewish holy sites. Why is the force of arms victory by the IDF capturing these areas considered illegitimate in the eyes of the world? Yet the force of arms capture of these areas in 1948 is perfectly OK? There was no clamor for a two state solution from the Arabs in 1948 only a stated desire to ?wipe Israel from the map?. In short the world is hypocritical and cannot be trusted.

It may be a peace plan, thusfar it hasn't worked too well. European Wars, Crusades, Muslim conquests, American Civil War, Spanish Civil War and so forth.. I'll believe it when I see it, not before. One can't exist on promises.

"and who started suicide bombings" ali means goldstein did. what about the fedayun killings and the bus hijacking and the savoy hotel attack and the airport killings and the ben gurion airport massacre.they predated goldstein.most took place before he was born.so ali have you become an apologist for hamas?

"The Palestinians had good reasons to object to the establishment of a Jewish state from 1937 to 1967. After all, they were the majority in Palestine." Just what Palestine are you talking about? In 1937, the entire region was part of the British Mandate, and none of the countries even had an independent existence, and never had had one since the Ottoman empire ruled the region for five hundred years up until they lost WWI and the British replaced them as the Mandatory power. Transjordan and Syria got their independence in 1946. So where were the Palestinians who objected? "Their rejection was a tactical error." Their rejection was a major strategic blunder. It has allowed Israel to become larger and stronger; it has allowed Israel to win numerous wars against combined Arab armies; it has contributed to the destabalization of the ME and to endless political headaches.

"and who murdered arabs- goldstein"ali tosefta. but ali he was a loner.what can you possibly conclude from that?

"who murdered rabin in the first place" ali tosefta. the murderer was a madman.what can you possibly mean?

You must be feeling better now having recieved a pat on the back. She is really trying to get this "pat" off your back".I must admire your tenacity although not the validity of your assertions. You obviously read way too much Dershowitz/peters and never expand your horizon beyond "www.jewishvirtuallibrary which tells me you have a closed mind and are destined for a terrible shock one day. Slainte

Look, there has just a pattern evolved, let's say over the past 3 years (I am not counting now the time of the Intifada, although the whole refusal thing started with Sharon) that Israels first response to any proposal, to any suggestion is a negative one. What kind of image does that leave Israel with...?? Can you then really complain if many people around the world are starting to get a little bit suspicious about Israels true intentions..?? I can tell you, until about a year ago, I was quite sure that it was not the long term goal of Israels political mainstream to establish a Jewish state from the Middle Sea to the Jordan valley and thereby slowly but surely to "transfer" the Palestinians to Jordan. Today, I must admit, I am not that sure anymore. A few years ago, this may have been the dream of the Israeli right, but if the polls today are correct, and Likud would win big time, I really have to wonder about the true intentions of Israels silent majority....

Avi I sent you a response but Haaretz did not put it out. Typical! Shame on them. They oblige the many of our detractos,but leave some of us Jews who really care out in the cold. Having read your post we seem to agree that it is a futile gestures by the so-called Arab plan. It is merely more of the same,not any change in the ?packaging?. All they want is for Israel to disappear from their midts and this isn?t going to happen.I hope that Olmert does not fall into this trap, whether it is Condi?s plan to tell our leader or not. So, I say:Saudi Plan,into the dirty PAN.

MYTH:the jews have no claim to the land they call israel.FACT: all the jews were forced into the diaspora by the romans after the destruction of the second temple in jerusalem in the year 70 CE. and then 1800 years later, suddenly returned to PALESTINE wanting their country back.in reality, the jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3700 years.the jewish people base their claim to the land of israel on at least four premises:the jewish people settled and developed the land; the international community granted political sovereignty in palestine to the jewish people; the territory was captured in defensive wars;GOD PROMISED THE LAND TO THE PATRIARCHS-ABRAHAM,ISAAC,JACOB,JOSEPH.

Tell me who it is so I can collect. la go braith agut.

Tell me who it is so I can collect. la go braith agut.

"I forgot to explain the two types of `ron`. There are morons, and lessrons. Are you [Flushman] a more or less? - Mark Lincoln Mark, for your benefit I will take a look at today's (3/3) Flushman's posts (and a previous one) directed at you and me. Normally I don't read them, but I am curious about your comment. You will see that the man has poor logic, poor understanding, and poor facts. Here is a collection: 1. "let [oil] prices go high and the ingenuity of the west will come into play.we would have massive research into alternatives." Flushman believes that credible research can produce results instantaneously, as fast as he excretes his posts. It takes years, enough time to have a severe global depression. Responding to this point, Flushman "relied" on the economist S. Brittan: "when oil was at 70 dollars [Brittan] wrote that it would be catastrophic were the price to come down sharply.the result would be the search for alternatives would be halted. sounds logical to me". This sounds logical to me too. But if the price should not go DOWN sharply, does it mean that it can go UP sharply? To me this logic sounds moronic (I mean, lessronic). 2. "mordechai gur conducted negotiations with the palestinians: "it is not very pleasant to hear what i hear from the palestinians.they aren;t talking about the house in hebron or on givat hatamar (efrata)they are talking about the university hill in tel aviv" ? Flushman (from a Gur interview). Benny Begin wrote an article for Haaretz (2002) in which he also quoted Gur: "There was no contradiction between what the PLO's leaders were saying publicly in Arabic, and what was being said to Israeli representatives in closed-door discussions, and there was no concession on the right of return of the refugees to their actual homes. Deputy defense minister Mordechai Gur, who conducted talks with the PLO's representatives during 1994, said (Ha'aretz, January 30, 1995), "It's not very pleasant to hear what I hear from the Palestinians. They aren't talking about the house in Hebron or on Givat Hatamar [in Efrata - Z.B.B.]. They are talking about the university hill in Tel Aviv" As one can see, Gur quotes the Palestinians on the issue of the Right Of Return, not on destroying Israel. There is no secret here. They still claim this supposed right, but will give it up for some concessions, as they already admitted. Misleading Flushman, or too dumb to understand?

nothing in that.he was a murderer.the only shrewd move he made was to accept the oslo offer.

Isaiah 9:6-7: For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, [b] Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

What ever.

"By your own definition in #182, global jihad is a threat posed to Western civilization. You probably think that in order to pose a threat to Western civilization, terror attacks have to take place on Western soil. That is not the case". There are many people who could be considered a danger to Western Civilization. Bush is one, due to stupid policies. You are another, due to profound stupidity which is liable to confuse many softheaded people. Distinctions must be made between dangers. Not every danger is dealt with in the same way, although on Mars every danger is dealt with by war. BUSH has correctly defined the dangerous groups "terror organizations of global reach". Now, this is the definition of global Jihadists. Hamas and Hizballah do not belong. Please start your day looking at the mirror and saying: Whatever I was on Mars, on Earth I am an imbecile. Maybe after two hundred times it will penetrate your skull. It takes mice 200 times to learn how to get thru a labyrinth. Perhaps it will work for you too. "It is an ill thing to knock against a deaf, an imbecile, or a minor. He that harms them is culpable, but if they harm him they are not culpable." ? Talmud

Hi Ivo, Look, I usually try to pack my criticism on Israel in rather modest, fine language (although once in a while in a bit sarcastical way, I would admit...). There are just two things that usually can make me lose my nerve: - If Palestinian stone-thrower kids get shot by IDF soldiers (which has happened fortunate- ly much less since the cease fire is in place). - If Israel is rebuffing well meant offers for peace negotiations. You wrote in your post, that one couldn't expect from Israel to cry "hurray" each time an offer is presented. You are correct, noone expects that to happen. But if Olmert is asking for a "softening" of Rices proposals, then in the language of the diplomats this means pretty much "we are not interested". Of course he can not rebuff a U.S. offer as easily as a European one. Continued....

is there an emetgency exit?

probably beats your all time great: "hizballah won the war"ali tosefta.

What's the sense of sitting around a table when the cards have all been dealt and you know the deck had been stacked against you? Pre-conditions have have been set by the Arabs and no modifications will be allowed. I doubt if anyone, including yourself, would hand somebody a signed, blank check to do with as they wish. That's Russian Roulette with all six cylinders loaded, no matter how you spin it, you lose.

you have milked that cow once too often tosefta old bean.

1. No one ever claimed that Faisal was the hero of the Arab revolt. We know from official British documents that the Arab revolt was a British engineered plot to oust the Ottomans from the Levant and Faisal, his father and brothers were cannon fodders to the British foreign policy on the eve of WW1. 2. It is irrelevant what the Palestinian Arabs were called 200 years ago. The fact is their presence and rule in the land known as Palestine has been constant since the 7th century at least where they made the overwhelming majority of the population. 80 years ago the Austrians and the Hungarians made what was knows as the Hapsburg Empire so does it mean the Austrian and Hungarian nations never existed? 3. I find it amusing when die hard Zionists keep going on about independent Palestine since there was no independent states in the region. There was no Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi etc but does it mean that these lands were empty and therefore game for conquest and claim by all and sundry

How can their be peace,when god sent the unwanted chidren of abraham(hagars chidren)to the wilderness,and than said their hand will always be against sarah and her chosen ones.Did not your god say you would hate each other.

Tosefta tells us that Mubarak's position is "accept" the plan, then come to negotiate. But that is the whole point: if Israel accepts the Saudi plan as is, then what is there to negotiate?

myth:the majority of the population in palestine was arab; therefore, a unitary arab state should have been created. fact: at the time of the 1947 partition resolution, the arabs did have a majority in western palestine as whole-1.2 mil arabs vs. 600,000 jews. but the jews were a majority in the area alloted to them by resolution, and in jerusalem.the jews never had a chance of reaching a majority in the country given the restrictive immigration policy of the british.by contrast, palestinian's arab population, which had been declining prior to mandate in 1922, grew exponentially because arabs from all the surrounding countries were free to come-and thousands did-to take advantage of the rapid economic development and improved health conditions stimulated by zionist settlement.

Mubarak had emphatically stipulated that it must be accepted "UNCONDITIONALLY" as written. There was no wiggle room in his statement. Israel had to AGREE TO EVERYTHING before sitting down to discuss. What discussion, it's all pre-detemined. Israel would be sitting at the conference as a dummy filling a chair.

I could have told you that you would get nowhere with him. You might as well try Uria Heep. By the way, you had some interesting exchanges with him early this morning on the thread regarding France. I am most flattered indeed. Regards, Cipora

You say that you are from Chicago but as we know, the only natives in modern day US are the red Indians and my guess you are not from any of the Indian tribes so you must be some fake who managed to settle there but yet think nothing wrong in calling the place home? Your rant shows that you know nothing about the history of the Middle East or the ethnic composition of its people so why don't you use the time available to you to educate yourself instead of writing drivel in here?

How disingenuous, or plain lying! Even I, a West Indian, know the Arabs were in Palestine since the 7th century. At the beginning of the 20th century, the made up 85 percent of the population. Where did you get your facts?

For a time Faisal of Mecca hero of the arab revolts he supported the balfour declertaion and belived that the idea of a jewish homeland would be benifical to the arab peasents could learn from the zionists. He even signed an agreement with Chaim Weizman. The real palestians are the jews who were living there long before the arabs. The name Palestine was not an arab one it was Roman after the jewish revolts in an attempt to destroy the jewish charecter of the jewish kingdom they renamed the place Philistina translated from latin Palestine and there was never an indipendent arab state named Palestine. The arabs who describe themselves as palestian people are a politcal creation of the PLO. After Israel came into existance the last of part of the land which was known as Palestine ceaced to exist today there is no such place as Palestine look at any indipendent map of the region. Where do you people get your history from it changes everytime it suits the current politcal propoganda.

Maria hello You are doing quite well,and please bear in mind we are surrounded by enemies here. Do not take any notice of that hateful person called Labhras.He is an Arab agitator,and he gets paid for it.He hates Israel and the Jews. Thought I'd remind you about it. Not that you are a gullible person anyway, and you know well enough who is for us,and WHO AGAINST.THIS MAN IS THE LATTER OF THE TWO. Keep it up you are a breath of fresh air....

So according to you a nation needs a distinc langage and a distict religion. This is a zionist way of looking at the world. Otherwise we would have had only two countries in South America, one catholic spanish speeking and one catholic portuguese speaking. Believe it not, some people do not differentiate themself on a religious basis

A rose by any other name...!!

Palestine national congress represented SOME living in Palestine. Trying to imply that it was all Arabs in Jerusalem are you? Jerusalem has been there for millenia with a Jewish population long before the Arab invasion. You forgot to mention King Faisal was a strong supporter of the Balfour decleration. Never mind the rejectionists "won". Happy?

On the Israeli side there is a deep awareness of having been cheated enough already. To let the PA in at all (in -93), to arm it etc. was a huge step, & the whole of Oslo was predicated on conditions (the minimum ones) diametrically opposed to what you've got now w/Hamas in power (& rearming ominously - I tried to explain to you in a posting that didn't get through the other day why the existential threat is real, espec. because of Hamas. To claim the opposite is planets away from reality). It's the worst of worst-case scenarios come true. There was an admittance from even moderate PLO people that Oslo actually was a Troyan horse. Now w/Hamas being armed to its teeth next to Israel the Troyan horse is evident to everyone. Which means, you need a very good, verifiable settlement /at least the beginnings of one, one in sight, to really start moving at this point. No more open-ended, weak accords, nor a cease-fire building up towards an even bigger clash in the future. Regards,

Gosh So many of you to counter. All I wanted,was to ask you lot up there to put my posts out.........

If you expect anyone to take seriously an organization that couldn't do a thing about the Rwanda situation then or Darfur now, can't police it's own people to stop them from raping the innocents they were sent to protect, or run a Oil-for-Food program efficently and without corruption, you've got another thing coming! You and they can say all they want and whatever you want, these territories will remain as they are, for all eternity for all the Russiams and Chinese care. If you REALLY want to do something about this, go and personally ask Hamas to accept Israel's existence, st. Otherwise, exactly what do you expect Israel to do with Hamas, or Fatah, or Hezbollah as their neighbors, die? But then again, the IRA always was in bed with the PLO, so why should this surprise anyone? As for the "reading list", will reading these books stop bombs on buses? How about planes crashing into buildings? I know what will, though...Rule .303

Jordanian Foreign Minister Abdelelah al-Khatib in the above photo looks pretty miserable. And why not? He realizes that as a Hashemite he is actually at home in Arabia. Palestine, renamed Trans-Jordan and renamed Jordan is a fake home for Hashemites as their real home is a part of Arabia. Actually being a fake seems to be essential for Arabs in the Middle East. Saudi Arabians are actually from Yemen. Hashemites are actually from Arabia and palestinians, well they could be called the fakestainians - their two most famous 'leaders' were both Egyptian and they didn't even start calling themselves palestinian until the 1960s. Actually, as Arabic doesn't contain the 'P' sound, they really can't even say it. It is a Roman made up term. So it fits them as it is a fake foreign name for a fake people.

Nadav, if you have been reading my contribution to this forum over the last 2 years at least, you'd have concluded that I have easily been able to refute and shot to pieces every single argument you or any of your die hard Zionist friends have tried to put forward. Your posts have demonstrated beyond any doubt that Zionism as a theory is nothing but one big lie and could never stand to scrutiny. Your approach to every topic is to bury your head in the sand and deny the obvious. You even deny that the Palestinian people have ever existed so what could be more ludicrous than denying a fact like the existence of an entire nation which manifest itself through a distinct culture, dialect, tradition, cuisine, history and folklore? If you really want me to take you seriously then try and say some thing intelligent...

Hi Dino, - I think you have a generally sensible attitude, but you seem to show a propensity for throwing unfairly suspicious & hostile comments at Israel when you get a chance. Why is that? The Saudis & Israel haven't engaged in real negotiations yet, so we're not dealing w/offers & counteroffers yet(as at C.David), rather w/whether there's a suffucient base to start talking at all. As of yet we don't know if any Arab "reformulations" would be of any substantial significance. It's no good as it stands w/insistence on right of return. The situation is a bit ridiculous, EVERYBODY knows what the minimum criteria are by now, for both sides. Once a realistic Arab offer is tabled you'll see a landslide in Israel. 2ndly, Israel has all the reasons in the world to be cautious. You don't just shout hurray at any vague formulation from the other side. The Pals have not as much to lose (& they need badly the financial support from the West), so they may be more eager "to talk". - cont.

Another moderately worded post (among the 8) of mine that will not be published by the Haaretz "liberal" Censors.

For the sake of peace and humanity,any positive repakaging of this initiative, will be a step in the right direction .People in that part of the world ,have suffered and endured long enough for many years.It is the reponsibilty of leaders on both sides, to have the courage and vision to put an end to the most vexing conflict the world has ever seen.

Good old John Hope Simpson,A Samaritan eh.Now shall we focus on how much land was stolen from the Palestinians.

You are wrong again about when Palestinians suddenly discovered their Nationality.You might try visiting the "Peel Commissions " site, it gets you started down the right track.. Here is another thought for you." The validity of Land gained by Force"??Ring any bells maria. Doesnt matter a hoot who the land was controlled by prior to whatever. Israel is the aggressor and in noncompliance with United Nations Resolutions and Geneva Conventions. You have a nice day now ya hear and watch out for those Evangelicals.

Hello Labhras, I tend to follow developments with the IRA because they can serve as a model for the ME problems and their resolution. First came the Good Friday Agreement, then its implementation which took a good few years. I am glad to see it working out.

Hi Tosefta. At 11.30 am this morning at Stormont Ian Paisley sat down with Gerry Adams(both arch enemies)to discuss how the get the Northern Ireland Cabinet back in business after years of direct Rule from London.This come after 40 tears of strife and in fact the IRA only decommissioned their arms very recently.The other side still has some rogue elements refusing to do so ,but it has not stopped the overwhelming desire for peace.Hope Israel and the Palestinians can do like wise .

Nadav ,you offer me theories as responses or your personal disagreement or those of many other people to facts and credible sources that I offer you. Re 242, If as you say Israel has satisfied that then where do I find Official confirmation of such. My problem is that I rely on such august bodies as the UN (same one that endorsed formation of Israel) and it,s Legal Arm,the ICJ who as you know in June 2004 reiterated that the The Palestinian Territories are still Occupied and belligerently so by the State of Israel.Additionly the 4th Geneva gets a mention. So what would you have others do Nadav.Believe your interpretation of the Law or those that are paid to do so. Israel has not left the Gaza Strip and for you to say so is nothing short of rediculous.Try getting in and out of it. No Israel has noT met the requirements of 242. As TO the flight of Arabs, suggest you read Benny Morris "Righteous Victims".It might enlighten you.Also try Schlomo ben ami Scars of War Wounds Of Peace.

jews actually went out of their way to avoid purchasing land in areas where arabs might be displaced.they sought land that was largely uncultivated, swampy, cheap, and most important without tenants..........john hope simpson,may,1930

The expulsion and exodus of over 850,000 Jews from Arab countries is among the most significant yet little known injustices against humanity of the past century. For hundreds of years, and in many cases for millennia, Jews lived in countries such as Algeria, Egypt, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Syria, Tunisia, Iran, Iraq and Yemen. In fact in several of these countries the Jewish population was established long before what has become today?s local population or over 1,000 years before the advent of Islam. From the seventh century on, special laws of the Dhimmi (the ?protected?), later known as the Covenant of Omar, subjected the Jews of the Middle East and North Africa to prohibitions, restrictions and discrimination and the harsh conditions of inferiority. Many Jews did manage to prosper despite these circumstances including occupying high government positions. Discrimination against Jews in Arab countries took a dramatic turn for the worse in 1948 after the birth of the State of Israel. Between the 1940s and 1980s, the Jews of Arab countries endured humiliation, discrimination, human rights abuses, organized persecution and expulsion by the governments of the countries of their origin.

What artifacts, what currency, what history books support the arab claim to Israel? What laws? General assembly resolutions are non-binding. G-d made a covenant with Abraham...Israel belongs to the Jews.

I'm reading all the hosannas about how wise and moderate the Saudi's are, as King Abdullah dusts off his old proposal from 2002. The 2002 proposal as it stands now demands that Israel take back all the Palestinian refugees.

"had numberous opportunities to establish its own state, but each time this was offered, it responded with bullets, mortars and explosives, e.g. 1937 Peel Commission, 1947 UN Partition, 1948 to 1967 Jordanian and Egyptian contol of the disputed territories, 1979 Begin-Sadaat Autonomy, 1993 Oslo process, 2000 Camp David offer, and Presently the Roadmap to Peace." - Nadav Our self-righteous friend Nadav makes no distinctions between moral sins and strategic mistakes. And no reasonable evaluation of who the guilty party is when a mistake is made. I will get into the details in a moment, but according to Nadav's logic, if the Jews were responsible for Jesus' death sentence (and he was a heretic according to their standards at the time), we should remain guilty forever. (Well, until Jesus is back.) The Palestinians had good reasons to object to the establishment of a Jewish state from 1937 to 1967. After all, they were a majority in Palestine and the Jews were newcomers supported by colonial powers. There was no moral sin involved, but as history showed, the Arabs were in fact weaker than the Jews, so their rejection was a tactical error. From now on, Nadav moves into evaluation fantasies. He blame every failure on the Arabs and the Jews are supposedly clean: 1. Begin-Sadat autonomy: Begin was responsible for the failure, nobody else. The Pals were not involved in the discussion. Begin wanted Greater Israel, and appointed Burg, a non-expert, to deal with the talks. Dayan resigned from the government as a result. 2. Oslo process. Certainly the Hamas bombings in 1996 helped Peres lose the election to Netanyahu. But who murdered Rabin in the first place? And who massacred Arabs (Goldstein) in order to undermine Oslo and started suicide bombers in Israel? And who did everything to undermine Oslo for 3 long years? (Netanyahoo.) 3. 2000 Camp David offer. In view of the Taba talks after Camp David, where Israeli offer was much better, I would say Arafat was quite shrewd to reject the Camp David offer. Taba talks were suspended for the Israeli elections, and Sharon was not interested in their renewal. The Pals are to blame for Sharon? 4. Roadmap. It is interesting that the peace proposal on the line now is the Saudi one, not the Roadmap, which was unrealistic from day one. The Pals are to blame for Bush?s stupidity. Nadav, give us a break. We may have caused Jesus death, but we are not guilty. Maybe you should blame a third party. How about Pilate? P.S. I do not expect any change. I made these historical points to Nadav before, but something appears to be interfering with the reception.

in the six-day war, israel captured JUDEA,SAMARIA,and EAST JERUSALEM.but they didn't capture these territories from YASSER AFAFAT.they captured them from late king hussein. I can't help but wonder why all those PALESTINIANS suddenly discovered their national idenity after ISRAEL WON THE WAR.......by WND.

opinion Chanah S and I are "die hard Zioninsts" and that we "twist facts and distort history". As for being a Zionist, I am and very proud of it. I am also a Jew and an Israeli and I am very proud of these facts as well. Furtheremore, I am very proud for the fact that you opted to place me in the same camp with Chanah S, whose posts are well analysed, articulated and rooted in her love for her Jewish people and her country, Israel. And as the "twisted facts", you have not provided a single example to illustrate your charge, none!!! So, what does it say about you??

Of the 700,000 registered Palestinian refugees, about 250,000 were already residents of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip prior to 1948, in other words, not refugees at all. The 900,000 Jewish refugees were ALL longtime residents in Arab lands, many of them having resided there for as much as 2,500 years. While the Arab states did nothing, and crowded the Palestinians into refugee camps, Israel absorbed about 600,000 of these Jewish refugees, almost all of them peniless, because the Arab governments stole the assets their families has acquired over many lifetimes of residence. The Jewish refugees from Arab lands deserve restitution for the thievery of the Arab governments perpetrated upon them purely because they were Jewish. Any settlement that does not take the Jewish refugees from Arab lands into account is an abortion of justice.

I hope you're not kidding me....because I read some of your post before........

In 130 talkbacks, there has no been a single word about the Jewish refugees from Arab lands created at the same time. Some 900,000 Jews, many of whom had lived in Arab lands since before Mohammed, were divested of citizenship and all assets (totalling billions of dollars) between 1948 and 1967. While I may be sympathetic to the claims of the Palestinians (although consider them inflated, and in many cases, baseless-- with only personal testimony without a single document to verify those claims), no peace can be "just and lasting" without giving the Jewish refugees from Arab lands the same status and rights as the Palestinian refugees. This is a topic that has been swept under the rug too many times.

SECURITY FORCES, ther should be two types, the Regional/Local Police for both and the NATIONAL POLICE FORCE for all other type of complex emergencies. All the land marks as MUSEUM, should be called I S R A P A L National Museum etc etc.Thus no jealosy is involved. Workers should be proportionately employed according to each religion until such time as the best person wins the employment. JERUSALEM as the HOLY CITY,has the potencial to attract many Millions of Tourists every year, from BILLIONS of CHRISTIANS, BILLIONS of MUSLIMS and MILLIONS OF JEWS, and MILLIONS of Africans and BILLIONS of ASIANS. What a boom for the economic of both STATES. All we need now is TRUE PEACE. salam/Shalom/Peace.

Package, repackage and repackage again, no matter how many times they repack it, it wont work. There is no interest from the other side. Just have Israel to make its own package. Try it.

מפת הדרכים היא מדריך אמין שיאפשר להקים מדינה פלשתינית לצד ישראל "The Roadmap is a reliable guide which will enable the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside Israel" - Rice Condi Rice is back to waste our time with her Roadmap. The Roadmap requires, as a first step, that all militant groups in the PA be dismantled. What is the chance that Hamas will dismantle itself? The same chance there was since the Roadmap was announced in early 2003. Since its inception, the Roadmap became a roadblock to peace for a very simple reason: Liberation movements do not disarm before a peace agreement is signed with them (see the IRA). If they do so, they lose all influence on the other side. In order to increase the importance of her visit, Rice tells us that she spent many hours with Dumbya Bush talking about a Middle East peace approach. This must be very encouraging. Dumbya must have given her some great ideas! Instead of wasting everybody's time, Rice should recognize that the best approa

It should not be a difficult task to administer such a GRAND City,( where there is a will there is a way).If there have to be success for both East and West JERUSALEM,then Religiosity have to be curtailed, fanatics of any kind should be heavily fined or imprisoned, thus creating a stong deterrent for all to be aware of the consequences. Thanks GOD that JERUSALEM is HOLY To PROPHET ABRAHAM, and his descendents( JEWS, CHRISTIANS, & MUSLIMS), as such there should not be any problem. E/W Jerusalem, the 2 should be administered as Regional Councils within the GREATER COUNCIL of the whole city.It should be on the model of Greater London Council .The main administration (by a council of 100 members, 50 Jewish , 30 Arabs and 20 Chritians of all denominations). East and West Jerusalem running their part of their Municipalities, but the main responsibilities by the GJConcil, and the Mayor should be in turn A Jew, A muslim , A Jew and a Christian (50%)Jews,(50%) Arabs/Christians.

Most of today's posters insist on slinging mud at completely irrelevant subjects, but you are right on target. The Israeli/Palestinian problem must be resolved, and all parties should sit around the table and talk. Even if they sit for a long, long time and discuss whatever, there is no harm in talking....but everyone KNOWS that they must find the way to peace. Even the US talked to the North Vietnamese in Paris for months...and they did acheive a resolution. Talk is cheaper than war...but not as profitable.There are some whose profit motives are best served by continuous conflict. Have a nice day!

According to the article, Israel "opposes" a large influx of Arabs into Israel. In other words, this is just another matter to be negotiated. But such an influx would mean the end of the Jewish state. And so the Saudi plan is yet another repackaging of the old Arab agenda to do away with Israel. And according to your article, Jordan, supposedly at peace with us, supports this plan! How about Israel having the guts to tell Rice that the Saudi plan is dead in the water, that any negotiations will be based on "some land for full peace," as stated in UN Resolution 242, and that there will be no negotiations until the terror stops? But Israel has no guts and little willpower.

well said.......

Despite the efforts of many propagandists here, my fellow Palestinian the Bethlehemite has easily been able to present a pretty comprehensive analysis of the situation and produce a realistic plan to ending the conflict. Having read some of the comments by some die hard Zionists like Nadav and ChanahS, to mention but few, I couldn't resist a small chuckle at how desperate they are to produce anything of substance. Their strategy has always been to twist facts and distort history hoping that other people lack of knowledge would make them look clever in the forum. Guys the facts speak for themselves and you can't deceive all the people all the time so why don't you just throw in the towel and admit you've got it all wrong?

they don't have proofs....the only proofs they have:BIG LIES.

but Haaretz has neglected to post it. Second, as part of the Family Reunification Program Israel has enabled many true Arabs into the country, possibly more than actually left back in 1948, whether you like it or not. I personally do not think Israel is responsible for flight of the refugees and should not have allowed any in, but I do not govern the state. As for 242, it called for Isrel to evacuate territories captured during the Six-Day War, 1967. At first Israel evacuated the Sinai Peninsula, based on the peace agreement with Egypt which was a party to that war. Theoratically, that move could have been considered meeting 242. But in addition, Israel left the Gaza Strip, 2005, that Egypt had refused to take over as part of the peace agreement with Israel, hence leaving another territory, under Palestinian Arab control. In short, Israel has met the requirements of 242, and is willing to do more, based on cooperation with the other side, with the Arabs of Eretz Israel.

I'm ok with the idea to give Palestinians a country but then, why do they want to move the refugees inside Israel? What's the point to have a country named Palestine in the West bank and Gaza if you want your people to settle in Israel? I don't get it...

Hi Leftie,Did you watch Process in Belfast today. A good day for all. I dont wish to be a spoiler but I think you give Rabin/Peres/Barak more credit than they are due. Under Rabin,s stewardship Israel built more Settlements than any other in the same time period.His committment to peace was dubious in that sense,although he did shake hands albeit caught by surprise and in front of world press with Arafat. Peres just simply plays the Good Guy, in the Good guy /Bad guy scam and is a second fiddle in any orchestra. Barak claimed to have gone further than any PM had ever gone but left the talks as he was under political pressure at home, ironically due to the "went further etc" Myth.He then tried to blame Arafat as did Clinton for his Failure.No defense of Arafat intended.

Did Mubarak explain to you what he meant by acceptance? You missed statements by the Arabs that this is not the way things work, for Israel to impose pre-conditions. "Accept" the plan, and then come to negotiate it.

Thats really funny, so non stop laughing:))) Its like a two presidents for one country.

We are familiar with the obsessive Flushman, the shallow thinker, who keeps excreting and flushing into our forums. But did you know that the poor guy also makes up quotes? I normally don`t read his posts, but the other day he posted a series aimed at me, and this before I posted anything here. It was interesting to see what the complaints were about. Well, they were "responses" to the previous day`s posts. I will give just two examples that will illuminate the quality of thought we are dealing with; and one good advice to Flushman. Take two spoons of Peptalk-Bismol and go back to sleep: 1. "if lebanon falls under a severe recession then hizballah will attack israel." - Flushman ("quoting" me) "If Lebanon falls into a severe recession as a result of its economy having been destroyed, many disaffected non-Shiites will join the protests" - Tosefta (original statement) A non-quote, but what do you expect from somebody who does not understand what he reads? Flushman also thinks the present crisis is not the result of the war. It is. The article itself said the Lebanese economy was thriving before the war. 2. "but oil prices will go to 100 dollars" - Flushman ("quoting" me) "Oil prices will shoot up. Saudi Arabia cannot replace the Oil Iran will cut" - Tosefta (original statement) I didn`t offer an expected price. But worse still, here is Flushman`s analysis: "let prices go high and the ingenuity of the west will come into play.we would have massive research into alternatives." Flushman believes that credible research can produce results instantaneously, as fast as he excretes his posts. It takes years, enough time to have a severe global depression. Responding to this point, Flushman "relied" on the economist S. Brittan: "when oil was at 70 dollars [Brittan] wrote that it would be catastrophic were the price to come down sharply.the result would be the search for alternatives would be halted. sounds logical to me". This sounds logical to me too. But if the price should not go DOWN sharply, does it mean that it could go UP sharply? We are dealing with a shallow fool here.

the barbary pirates used kidnapping to extract money from europe.the middle east including iran and the pals use it to make political gains.the pirates failed and so will iran and the pals. kidnapping is not creative.it is a short term weapon and take the perpetrators no nearer their dubious political goal.

I stand corrected on the PN council - no need for the snide remark at the end.

The Saudis may have a way to go, but their attitude towards Israel today is better than it was five or more years ago. The difference is the rise of the Iranian-Iraqi-Syrian Shiite block, which really scares the Saudis. Odd isn't it, that they need Israel to defend them?

Re Cd,s. I have some old 78,s. Vera Lynn (No connection to "The Lynn") who sings " there will be peace ever after.White cliffs of dover stuff.

Thanks for the acknowledgement. My opinion is that the international community has the right,responsibility and obligation to intervene(creatively) in other conflicts. Hence, it's okay with me that Ravi and others around the world are writing in their responses.

Nadav, It is called "The Family Reunification Program".To allow Israeli/ Arabs (Israeli Citizens) that right is nothing to expect "Brownie Points" for. You claim that Israel has met the conditions of Unsc 242.If the argument is almost without exception from your side that,IE, Res 242 does not state specific territories, How do you identify egypt and Gaza as constituting compliance. "Spitting Shallow Facts", Is that not what you accused me of Nadav see#76 Any other questions Mr Nadav?.

I know this idea of international control of Jerusalem is made in good will. However, it is awful. First of all, international things tend to be slow, impractical, and run by overpaid, well-connected bureacrats - in other words, like a colony. Look at the UN, the EU, etc. Why should we expect some overpaid Zimbabwean or Irishman to care about Jerusalem, and issues such as traffic, water, crime, etc. Second, no "international" group is impartial. There are 20 million Jews in the world and more than one billion Arabs - so any international committee is going to naturally favor the stronger, richer party. Votes in the UN general assembly against Israel give us an idea about how Jerusalem would be run....Finally, I do agree with a shared administration - an equal number of Palestinians and Israelis managing Jerusalem as a part of a peace agreement. But please, no another bureacratic nightmare - international control of Jerusalem is just another way of saying "colonize Jerusalem"...

money.when that is done with they have no more influence with anyone.see how assad spurns them. so saudi is of no use to us at all.

saudi is looking after itself.they have so much money and the royal family is enjoying itself so much they have no wish for trouble in their region. but saudi can do nothing and would want to do nothing when the pals attack us should we retreat.

abu alaa said the following:"everyone knows the camp david talks broke down over the refugees."

The Arabs have REPEATEDLY stated that Israel must accept the Saudi plan before they sit down to the negotiating table. Mubarak repeated it again just last week.

While I agree with you that Israel successfully made peace with Egypt and Jordan, these were in many ways much easier to resolve. The nature of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a lot more complex and demands painful sacrifices of both sides. At times, Israeli leaders have been willing to do this (Rabin, Peres, Barak). At other times, it was insincere (Sharon and Olmert, until now - if it's his only political lifeline, he'd probably take it.) Certain individuals on the Palestinian side, likewise, are pragmatists (Abbas and his closest associates). Others, have alternately supported peace and terror (Arafat, Barghouti, etc.) Others are driven by religious zealotry and hatred and can't be reasoned with (Jihad, probably Hamas). I wish Abbas had been in power when Barak was around. Then the last seven years might of been very different. But I guess we'll never know. I fear there will never be Palestinian & Israeli leaders in power at the same time, ready to sign a tough deal

The Arabs do not insist that Israel accept the details of the Saudi offer in advance. Everything is negotiable, while the Saudi offer is simply the Arabs` opening bid for the negotiations. If the Palestinians agree to anything, why should any Arab country object to it? Israel`s strongest objection is to the return of the refugees. But the refugees` problem is actually the EASIEST issue to solve, because the Arabs are fully aware that Israel cannot admit any significant number back. They use the refugee issue in order to gain concessions on the other issues: Territory and Jerusalem. The way the Saudi plan puts the refugee problem is not bad: "Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194." This is open to interpretation, otherwise the Saudis would have said: "Implementing Resolution 194". Indeed, the Geneva Initiative solves the refugee problem with the vast majority of refugees get settled elsewhere, with everybody calling it "fulfillment of Resolution 194". The Arabs are aware that Resolution 194 did not create a "right of return", since the language says that the refugees "should" be allowed to return, not "shall" be allowed. An additional support for this is that Israel was admitted to the UN in 1949 after it made some commitments about compensating refugees. Israel did not commit to returning them to their homes, and nevertheless the UN found this satisfactory and admitted Israel as member.

Until such time as Abbas, Saudi Arabia, The Arab League and all other involved parties do all that it takes to secure the expeditious release of the three hostages, I see absolutely no point in wasting ink and time on meaningless discussions, summits and press conferences.If the Arab "block" cannot do this, why on earth should Israel waste one second in peace discussions?

First and foremost, I'm always leery of anyone that uses "American" as part of his title. It's It's whackos like U that demand others forfeit their rights to the undeserving, at no cost to yourself personally. Now, back to basics, The Arabs have Jordan, that's the Palestine they're hollering about. Unfortunately for them, they tried to overthrow the Kingdom and King Hussein killed more than 10,000 of them during Black September.The insulted their host by trying to steal his kingdom. Any country that has hosted them, has found they a bunch of malcontents and ingrates, trouble makers, one and all. Even now, Hamas & Fatah are still shooting and killing each other, we read of this daily. Israel, of necessity, built a security wall to keep the homicidal bombers out. In so doing, they also cut off the Gazans from the Israeli jobs that paid them rather well, by arab standards. Every nation is entitled to secure it's borders and keep undesirables o

Concerning e-jerusalem, we can have the holy site under an international monitoring committee that allows access to both faiths. The part of E-Jerusalem that doesnt have holy sites and is mostly Palestinian, would go to the palestinians and the west to the Jews. That along with the westbank, Gaza, the arab world will be 99% happy and will live in peace. With out that, peace will be impossible. I agree that the land is for the decendants of Abraham, but I think alot of us forget that Abraham had more than one kid - Ishamil and Isaac. So the land belongs to both. God bless

but it is the exception that proves the rule.i in fact live on dr ambedkhar road in mumbai. my problem is with ravi giving lectures to foreigners when we are in no position to lecture anyone.

Nadav, Lets try a little perspective here. The peel commission,s recommendatios would have required the population transfer of some 225,000 Palestinians and the Transfer of only 1250 Jews. Perhaps your somewhat agile and finely tuned ability to (post facto)endow the Palestinians with almost unlimited magnaminity in the face of their loss, works for you but I as I am sure the Palestinians would beg to differ.You with you equally fine tuned 20/20 vision write off their feelings and use clinical terms such as "Missed opportunity". Therein lies the basis of you problem Nadav, namely your inability to get inside the others head. Try that and you might begin to go in the right direction and one day achieve the peace you and,doubt it not , the Palestinians long for. You disagree with me when I claim the Palestinians were not offered a self governed state.Jordan/Eygpt.????.

There's a lot of potential in the Saudi initiative. If it is true that they are discussing rephrasing the initiative in order to leave open room for further compromises, I think Israel should return the gesture with a move of their own. Obviously, there are some details still to work out. Not everything is going to be solved overnight. These are extremely complex isues. The "hows" have yet to be worked out. But I think the ball is now in Israel's court to make a positive response. Not the usual weasel words, but something concrete. If not full acceptance, perhaps something close, holding back just enough to leave some room to test Arab intentions further and leave room for further negotiation. I think we are now in a game of both sides trying to expose the other side as insincere. The question is, could they actually both be sincere now? And will they keep playing this game long enough to be shocked into realising they are, in fact, both being sincere with each other?

their FIVE year old kids to be homicide bombers. After viewing repeated broadcasts of FOX news yeSterday, a Hamas film was bragging that they're training program has been accelerated, they're now training FOUR years old to go out and kill. Next step would be training the kids while they're in the womb.

Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates? All Arabs removed from Israel? Temple on Temple Mount rebuilt? Man, just as the peace process begins to show some promise, you come up with these unrealistic fantasies! You're nuts!

OK, make Palestine in Jordan, but then can they get Israli citizenship in Ramallah, Hebron and Jericho? Or would you expect them to leave? Just because there is now a jewish state it doesn't mean that everyone expects their jewish populations (Russia, France, the US, etc) to get the hell out and leave to Israel...you can have both...so they can have a state in Jordan and then consider the conflict ended and Israel can then give its 4 million Pales. in the terrritories full citizenship....that way the Pals can have dual citizenships...like many jews do today...

Arabs have repackaged their solution several times in the past. 1948, 1967, 1973 and again in 2006. Unless their goal changes they will probably never be happy.

As an Israeli Jew, I can tell you that most Israelis would agree with the terms you suggest in your post. The refugee issue is key, of course, and I'm glad you understand that there is no way any Israeli government would/could accept the return of millions of Arab refugees. It would be political suicide, not to mention that the Israeli populus would never accept it, since it would Arab-ize greater Israel. A JUST solution is reasonable for all, and that means compensation and agreement from our Arab "partners" Jordan/Egypt/Lebanon. My question is in regards to E. Jerusalem. Our Holy of Holies sits in the Old City. How do you suggest we handle that?

UNSC 242 has been met by Israel a long time ago when it withdrew from territories captured during the defensive war of 1967. It withdrew from the Sinai based on the 1979 peace agreement with Egypt, and it withdrew from the Gaza Strip in August 2005. 242 did not call for the withdrawal from all the territories, rather from territories. Israel has admitted hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs into the state over the past 50 some years as part of the Family Reunification Program. Israel is ready to deal with the Hamas government as it has announced many times, as soon as Hamas accept Israel's right to exist, is willing to adhere to signed agreements and end allacts of terror against Israeli civilians. Any other questions, Mr. Bill?

I can see why you were easily confused. But I also provided you a link from the Jewish Vitual Library. The Palestinian National Congress first met in 1919 in J'lem where as the Palistianian National Council met first in 1964 after the PLO was formed. BTW, do not use Wikepedia as a reference; anyone can edit the text. Have it: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Palestinian_National_Council&action=edit Honestly it is pretty disturbing to see here so many people twist history or know so little of it.

Dr CR."It would help all of us to have a destination in mind where we are going." Yes Madam we , the majority of the Israelis and Palestinians, the Quartet ==The United Nations (Nearly 200 countries , including 52 Islamic countries , plus all EUROPEAN countries, Middle Eastern countries, The African countries, the Asian countries, the Australasian countries . YES MADAM WE ALL KNOW WHERE WE WANT TO GO. TO REACH THE FINAL GOAL= PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST. BUT there is a snag, Dr.Rice, The Israeli Government of PM Olmert, which is still finding ways for NOT negociating it with Pals, Syrians and Lebanese. We are also NOT surprise to see that you"INTENDS TO REQUEST C L A R F I C A T I O N S from Israelis as to how it INTENDS to IMPLIMENT THE VISION of a TERRITORIALLY CONTIGUOUS Palestinians State in the West Bank. So are ALL of US. Goodluck.

S, I can't help but you did nothing but confirm my earlier "bashing" of Israels political establishment. The fact that a Palestinian "nightmare" might wait for Israel in form of the next generation, is definitely a "good" reason to continue with the refuse and delay tactic we have seen now from Israel over the last couple of years. Smart politics...?? Njet. P.S. I have seen your response from this morning on yesterdays (Le Pen) thread. I just gave you another quick reply...

I apologise for the wrongdoing.But the Indian Constitution must be upheld and social attitudes must not only change but the law must uphold the rights guaranteed in the Constitution.Perpetrators should be prosecuted and brought to justice. The situation of the Dalits is different in different parts of India.For example, in Kerala State, where there has been successive social democratic governments and there is high literacy in the state, the condition of the Dalits has changed dramatically. This process must continue in other states.I pray that this will happen within a short time and the enormous injustices inflicted on the Dalits by the Hindu community will be lifted. For this, a secular democratic state is needed and this is why our Constituion drafted by Dr.Ambedkar(a Dalit minister) must be upheld,vigorously and without exceptions.

Is it that P L O was invited to have PEACE talk with the Israelis, and now there is so much difficulty for a PEACE Negociation between the Government of PM Olmert and that of Hamas. I always been told that you make peace with your enemies, has this been changed? What gets me is this (1) Precondition of quartet/O L M E R T." Recognition of the existence of Israel" To be fair does ISRAEL recognizes the Existence of Hamas as a Democratically Elected Goverment of the Palestinians people? Meshall( HAMAS CHIEF) has said in the past "ISRAEL IS HERE TO STAY" and today is adding something very significant "MY PARTY WOULD N O T OPPOSE THE ARAB PEACE INITIATIVE" Which accept the exist.of Israel. These word to any Fair minded people cannot but signified that HAMAS does recognized the EXISTENCE OF ISRAEL. Lets have negociations then both can mutually recognizing each others existence. No more STALLING THE PEACE PROCESS.Pl

Hello Hamza, Would it be too much of a stretch to suggest that Olmert may find a delaying tactic right in the neighbourhood."Homesh". I hate to be Cynical but have learned not to underestimate successive Israeli Governments ability to find a way to avoid peace and continue the settlement expansion and the wall etc.

Commission's offer. It was a proposal for the Arabs of Eretz Israel/Palestine to establish their own state over the nearly 80% of the territory of Eretz Israel/Palestine west of the Jordan River. The leadership of the Arabs of this Land rejected it. A somewhat worse offer was made by the UN in 1947. They rejected that offer as well. The very same leadership could have pushed for statehood on the entire territory of the so-called West Bank including the whole of eastern Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip, when these territories were controled by the Arab states of Jordan and Egypt respectively. Yet, instead they sent their terrorists to murder Jews inside Israel. Sara, Rashid Khalidi does recognize this short coming of the Arabs of Eretz Israel/Palestine. The Zionist movement in 1897 was mostly an idea and less of a movement. Blaming it is pathetic. Labhras, our people is made of people with various viewpoints and most of us would differ from that of Simon's with all due rspc't

Who is going to remove Israel from the Middle East and how is it going to be done .. there are no international laws that allow the removal of an indipendent state. Do you seriously belive that even the most left wing politicians in Israel are going to say lets pack our bags everybody and the last jew to leave turn out the lights? Israel is also a neuclear power more than capable of destroying any country that tries anything. If you want to remove countries from the Middle East how about some of the arab ones countries like Jordan are artificial states which never existed any time in history before it was created by the British Empire by dividing the former jewish kingdom. We want to deal with the palestian problem how about we say to countries like Jordan you will absorb all the palestians and there will be no more talk of another arab state.

Good to know your hard facts. Up to a point, of course. You may also want to read my #75 which, unlike yours, is pure anti-Israel. But, because of your good wishes for a better future I want you to reflect a little on the Palestinian curricula in grade school, where small children are taught destruction of Israel and beauty of martirdom. This has been going on for ages, since long under Arafat. Meshal and Hannyeh are sweet pupies compared to what's coming.

From Wikipedia: The Palestinian National Council (PNC) is the parliament in exile of the Palestinian people. The first PNC, composed of 422 representatives, met in Jerusalem in May 1964 and adopted the Palestinian National Covenant (also called Palestinian National Charter). It also established the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) as the political expression of the Palestinian people and elected Ahmad Al-Shuqeiry as the first chairman of the PLO Executive Committee. At the conference were representatives from Palestinian communities in Jordan, West Bank, the Gaza strip, Syria, Lebanon, Kuwait, Iraq, Egypt, Qatar, Libya, and Algeria. Subsequent sessions were held in Cairo (1965), Gaza (1966), Cairo (1968 ? 1977), Damascus (1979 ? 1981), Algiers (1983),

From PM Olmert"I want to remind you that there is constant contact between Pres.Abbas and me, and this will continue without interruption in the future." and another quotation from the PM. "WE WILL NOT CONDUCT PEACE TALK WITH PRES.ABBAS now that he has joined forces with HAMAS " and the last one from PM OLmert. "NO PLANS FOR A MAJOR MIDDLE EAST SUMMIT". What it all means is that Pm Olmert is NOT interested in Peace talk. Is finding many ways to avoid sitting to a negociating table, for a long long time. Because nobody knows HOW long HAMAS will be in power, another 10/20/30 years? so far he is quite happy just entertaining Abbas at his place, that's the future of the PALESTINIANS. IS THIS PEACE between neighbors.? The delaying tactics worked in the past and unfortunately is still working at full speed now.Please GOD HELP US. Thank YOU

Yeah, once in a while a "gem" presents itself.I saw the last line first on that one.Hope Bethlehemite posts again.

Labhras, just quickly two points: Yes, the Palestinians have the right to resist incursions, but it still would be smarter not to make use of this right, because once Israel will be confronted with flowers instead of bullets, she would look quite "ugly" in front of the world community and probably stop them for her own sake. And secondly, I wouldn't expect from the Pale- stinians to accept the Israel of today (of course not...), but an acceptance of Israels right to exist in principal should be definitely possible. Apropos, Talk Talk, remember the British Pop group with the same name, maybe we should send a couple of CD's to Jerusalem and Gaza, might be worth a try....:)

nadav,your history of Palestinian statehood is not accurate.Do read Dr.Rashid Khalidi (Ph.d from Oxford University and degree from Yale University and currently Professor at Columbia University).His book desribes the history of the Palestinian struggle for statehood in modern times,since the British Mandate and the obstacles placed in their way by the Zionists(this word from the Austrian Jew,founding father of Zionism who used the phrase,Zionist State).He wrote Der Juden Staat(1896)outlining his plan of building a bulwark for Europe against the Arabs. I am not sure I understand the logic of your argument.Since the Palestinian Declaration of Independence of November 15,1988,by the Palestinian National Council,the U.N.has given observer status to thePalestinians.The international community has accepted their standing.All that is left is for Israel to quit stonewalling and come to the Riyadh Summit of March 28 and settle in good faith with the Unity Government.Withdraw from Occupied Land

Nadav , You began your post by stating that you were referring only to the Arab Leadership and then you end it wih the following words. We will have to live through the 70additional years of missed opportunity by the Arabs of Eretz/Israel/Palestine.(Addition of that noted).Contradiction. The peel commission did not offer the Palestinians a state of their own. The offer as I recall would have placed the Palsetinians under the control of others.A missed opportunity, ??. Nadav are you familiar with Ernst Simon. Here is the statement by him, reminding fellow Zionists that. Jewry,s "Historical Right" to Palestine was a metaphysical rather than a Political category" and that, springing as it did from "the very inner depths of Judaism,"this "category .... is binding on us rather than on the Arabs", even the Zionist writer Ernst Simon was emphatic that it did not confer on Jews any right to Palestine without the consent of Arabs.

in your post to Swiss? And has Israel really the one that has caused the "Problem"? The fundamental problem as I see it is the Arab refusal to recognize the right of the Jews to their own nation-state within, in any part of the Jewish people's historic homeland of Ertetz Israel/Palestine. This is not Israel's doing, or is it?

Lest we forget Israel's Famous Three No's NO to UNSC 242 or withdrawal from occupied territories. NO to return of expelled non-jews, even as jews from any part of the world can pack up and go to live in holy land. NO to dealing with the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people. BUT YES TO PEACE. If I had an IQ of 50 I would still comprehend Zionspeak. Let the dialog of the deaf begin again.

Thanks very much, I think the name Uri is slowly but surely becoming my favourite name. I already got a positive feedback from an Uri from Switzerland a few weeks ago.... Or do you have double citizenship...?? :)

We are fully aware that all our REFUGEES will NOT be able to return back to their ancestral homes in Israel. Only for those whose house still standing, and their owners can still prove their ownership, who are only few, but the rests can be compensated,we do not want anything more than a JUST SOLUTION to that Problem. Once, the STATE OF PALESTINE ,in the West Bank and Gaza, is independent, many Palestinians will be able to be absorbed in the country where they are now living as refugees or will go to live in their new State. ALL we want is to live a PEACEFUL LIFE as anybody. Salaam.

They simply forgot something "Where is Shalit?".

we have only to look around us in india.my brethren who form something like 700 millions are treated as waste paper by all.sure the government wants our votes and reserves jobs for us but in practice nothing has changed.we are demeaned and subjugated.our women are harrassed and we have the most lowly jobs in the land. we are beaten and oppressed.lakshmi no amount of whitewash will change the reality of our lives.we are desperately poor and there is no change on the horizon.

"you are border line funny" Now, I have read a lot of stuff on this web site that is not funny. Not funny at all. But that last line? THAT, my friends, is a work of comic genius. Well done!

Hi Swiss dino.Have read many of your posts and have very few grounds to disagree on . While writing this I am watching both Ian Paisley and Gerry adams(former enemies) addressing the new Administration of Northern Ireland after 40 years of strife and ups and downs and generally speaking "One helluva Coaster ride". Attempts at peace began with the all too familiar accusations and recriminations and refusal to talk, but never the insistence to recognise anything.That was all addressed when they finally sat down . That is what Israel needs to do.What difference does it make who recognises what.It is just trying to gain advantages before negotiating but can backfire. On Past agreements, Olmert is talking about The Saudi Plan". So past agreements should not cause holdups. Palsetinians have the right to resist the incursions,Israel must commit to stop them. Recognising Israels right to exist is more tricky as it negates Israels part in creating the Problem. So yes talk talk talk

Mixing Saudi Arabia in any reasonable discussion on the Palestine issue is absurd. We are talking about a country where not even a juridical system exists, they behead people on the streets. From fundamentalism point of view Saudis are million times worse than the Iranians. The only reason Americans mix the Saudis into the equation is because they are oil rich, extraordinarily corrupt, ran by a gang of 4000 something princes and dependent on America for the protection from Al Qaida. We are talking about the laziest and most unsystematic people on earth, the Saudis. So basing any sort of peace-related maters in a Saud-related affair is absurd and should not be taken seriously.

.....PREFERRED TERROR. Don't encourage terrorists by "new initiatives". PALS know that peace process might resume if: a) Shalit is returned UNCONDITIONALLY; b) NO QASSAMS ANYMORE; c) NO TUNNELINGS; d) NO WEAPONSMUGGLING; e) 3 conditions of Quartet. Who needs the new initiative? - Those who want to justify situation that previous agreements are ignored by PALS-TERRORISTS.

Yes you are a good natured jolly fellow from Switzerland. An enemy hates, and talks in the language of hate. You don't. Yes, you'd lose your nerve and bite sometimes, but so do we all. Being good natured does not mean not having a backbone. If your friend is wrong it is your duty to say so, otherwise it were tribalism, nepotism and other bad-isms--all pathetic and (self)destructive, and before too long, we were where billions of unlucky Asian, African people already are.

The term "Palestine" derived from the word Philistine, the name of a non-Semitic ethnic group, originating from South Greece, closely related to early Mycenaean civilization. Romans tried to erase the Jewish connection to the land of Judea, and renamed it Syria Palaestina (Latin: Syria Palaestina) (including Judea) and Samaria. So I guess you could say Jews are Palistinians not the Arabs claiming to be. Kinda funny huh.

Did not all people of the land mass called palistin by the British not have papers saying they lived in Palistine?

S, congratulations, you are just making the experience Cipora has made quite a while ago, namely that I am not gonna be the good natured jolly fellow from Switzerland. You are getting the hard facts with me, no "smoothies"... And I will stick to each word on my earlier post, once in a while Israel just deserves a healthy "bashing", and (political) negative- ness and destructiveness is definitely one of her worst blunders. P.S. By the way, maybe you also wanna read my post to Labhras...anti-Israel...??

Encouraging trade and normalization are first step in a peace process. Land for peace is first step in a war and destruction process. Trade and normalization create climate for peace with nations that have wasted 60 years trying to create pariah status and the conditions for destruction for the tiny great country of Israel. Ending incitement, hatred and boycotts ofr Israel is fist step in peace process. Peace for peace in the name of tolerance, coexistence and humankind. Issue of population exchange begun in 1948 by Arab League needs to be discussed and absorbtion of 60 year "refugeees". This would be peace process. Any other agenda is the phased plan for the destruction of Israel.

If there were no Palestinians until 1964, then who did the Palestinian National Congress (PNC) represent in 1919? Hint: In 1919 the PNC rejected the Belfour dec and demanded independance. ..oh, the head of the PNC was also the Mayor of J'lem. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/brits.html Where do you people get your history from? I know now why it is essential for the Israeli text books show the Green line..you people can sure twist history and run with it. you are border line funny

to govern themselves, I only refer to the Palestinian Arab leadership. I submit that since 1937 this leadership has had numberous opportunities to establish its own state, but each time this was offered, it responded with bullets, mortars and explosives, e.g. 1937 Peel Commission, 1947 UN Partition, 1948 to 1967 Jordanian and Egyptian contol of the disputed territories, 1979 Begin-Sadaat Autonomy, 1993 Oslo process, 2000 Camp David offer, and Presently the Roadmap to Peace. Can you argue with this historic record, or you'd rather spit out shallow propaganda lines that are entirely removed from reality? I have not set out to analyze the historical and political development of the Palestinian Arab people. I merely examine this people's historic record, and the pattern that it reveals is one that if we continue on the same course of things, we will have to live through 70 additional years of missed opportunity by the Arabs of Eretz Israel/Palestine.

How can she look for peace between bitter enemies where one side's Prime Minister (Olmert) has 3% popular support? Obviously she must be "careful" and wait for the next one.

Labhras, the 3 demands by the International community that Nadav is often insisting on, are correct ones. The only problem is, how to get there. Nadav, and many Israelis are thinking that we should try to achieve it by further isolating Hamas and the unity governement as well as freezing all peace efforts. I differ on that, because I think that it would be worth a try to engage Hamas in a serious discussion. No guarantee that it will work, but pretty much a guarantee that it won't work if we continue with the status quo. But still, Nadavs and Israels 3 demands are justified ones. (And the fact that the Palestinians could make some valid demands themselves doesn't change that).

WHAT THE Saudi FM is saying is that ONCE negotiations commences the "right of return" doesn't have to mean that 4,3 million Palestinians are going home to Palestine. What has been suggested by Rice is that these Palestinians refugees could be offered citizenship in the countries they are reciding in. and the Arab states has hinted that once Israel has evacuated occupied territories, that could be the case.

I am losing patience with you. You are becoming rabid. 19 lines of text and 18 anti-Israel. You are fishing for criticism. Your "moderation" is ONLY in the following: "Together with the violence by the Palestinian extremists"...that's it. That's what became your "even-handedness". What do you think, that I will respond with my own 18 lines of anti-Arabism?? For Cipora only: I tried with Dino, and I failed.

Peace is a possibility only if the Palestinians realise that Palestinian refugees and their decendents can be repatriated to Palestine but not to Israel. The State of Israel has already absorbed an equal amount of Jewish refugees from Arab lands. Compensation must go both ways for both sets of refugees. Once that hurdle is out of the way, peace is a definite possibility.

The Indian Constitution was drafted by Dr.Ambedkar(from the Untouchable caste,now called Dalits) and guarantees equal rights to all citizens.India has a Muslim President,and in several provinces,Dalit ministers.There are reservations for jobs and educational institutions for the community and although there was opposition from some Hindus the Government of India stood firm.Social attitudes are also changing.Let us hope that process continues. As for the Muslim community they too are guaranteed equal rights by the Indian Constitution and are free to follow Sharia Law simultaneously.By and large the Muslim community in India is happy to live in India.Last year one member of the community even publicly presented a song for Muslim children:" India, our country, the best country in the world." India is proud to be a secular democracy. Nothing is perfect in this world, but the country is considered the largest democracy in the world,with equal rights for all religions and ethnic groups.

How exactly are they Isralie? You are right there is no Pal state but nor was there Israle pre-1948. So if displaced Jews have the right of return why not the displaced Arabs?

Good morning Raymond. You are right and as we know here in Ireland it is easy to be cynical given situation in the north and how that has panned out, slowly. While Olmert is talking peace to Rice and Abbas, the settlers are carrying out what really is the Government,s policy of expansionism and only veiled threats are put foward to dissuade them from their actions. Where is that "Break their Bones" concept when it is needed if Israel really views their actions as counter productive to peace efforts. Where is the outrage.