Soldiers' votes give Kadima, Likud and Meretz more seats

You better pray to Allah that Israel never disappears. Without Israel the Muslims would kill each other. Perfect example who is killing more Muslims in Iraq then other Muslims. Musloms are blowing up mosques. The Arab countries have given Israel the go ahead sign to make their own borders. All te citizens of Israel have spoken . Those that did not vote approved of the chose that was made by those that did vote.

How, in this day and age, can you support a Zionist movement against the bigger picture of human rights and trying to build a peaceful world society?

From half a world away, I call for peace, you call for the strife to continue. I am a Palestinian Arab, you are a Jewish Rissian. Just reflect on this. The wars that the Arabs lost, as you say, are 1948 and 1967. The 1973 war is something different altogether. In 1967, Pres. Nasir of Egypt never wanted war. He only wanted a "political" move to the M.E. conflict. Israel took advantage and launched war which resulted in occupation of arab territories. In 1973 Pres. Sadat said it very clearly: "I cannot fight the USA". So do not tell me about losing wars and having to pay for it. If there were justice in this world Israel would not get away with with 65 UN resolutions (all vetoed by the USA) to end the occupation. Yet, we have an opportunity at peace now. Compromise is required on both sides. The question is: Do you want peace based on justice and the facts on the ground, or a peace based on the supremacy of one race and a promise made by some "from the beyond" entity?

The question is why more Arabs don't join parties like Meretz or Avoda?

Apparently news come slowly to Rio ah? I'll update you. Olmert made it quite clear that he's going to divide Jerusalem and evacuate the 80000 of settlers and he and Avoda received the majority of voices 2 days ago. So, I am sorry to wake you up from your delusions, but Naser's "dream" will become reality. And I hope it'll happen sooner than later.

"in sinai there were dead people for example." I am curious now. How many Isralis died in Synai after we gave it to Egypt?

Shas, UTJ, and all the right wing parties are more Zionist the Meretz. They all love the Land of Israel and recognise its true spiritual relevance. Mertez want to get back to 67,thats a big difference with Kadimas aims who are no more than the pragmatic wing of Likud. Kadima will use Meretz and then spit them out.

Thank God. Thye fact that the soldiers, who put their lives on the line, voted for Zionist parties, and not against them is very heart-warming. God be with you!

Dear Moshe, All Jewish people are not Israelis, and have no right even to be asked about what is purely sraeli. If those Jewish people want to be asked, let hem come and live here, then they have a right to say something!

Zionist has proven that a democracy (albeit a small one) with a distinct Jewish identilty can survive in an area populated by some of the most backward people on the planet. Best wishes to Israel and the Jewish people for their successes. Shame on you Arabs for being so backward.

It stems from the fact that the Arab MKs are not really interested in the welfare of their constituency, and the Arab voters know it. All you see, hear and read about is this or that Arab MK visiting this or that Arab country and making this or that pro-Palestinian pronouncerment - all to keep themselves in the public eye. But when it comes to the hard, everyday parliamentary drudgery of improving infrastructure, roads, education, of attracting industry to the Arab sector in Israel - nada. You don't get on TV for that. Nor do the Arab MKs do much for civil equality of Arabs in Israel. Reason? In addition to the above, the Arab MKs know that equal rights mean equal obligations, like serving in the army, something vewry few Arabs do, and paying taxes, including municipal taxes, something very many Arabs don't do.

The time definitely will come when the israelis loose the final battle.

Let me remind you, the Hague is not the capital of the world nor of some super-empire with some extraordinary powers. Your derogatory comments indicate you are an impudent rascal, and your comments are wholly unwarranted here, in line with the general drift of the desparate beleagured Leftists toward Fascist rhetoric. Be gone.

REFERENDUM NEEDED AMONG ALL THE JEWISH PEOPLE-ERETZ ISRAEL IS NOT FOR SALE.

we do divide corectly, arab MP would like to destroy state of israel. they are fifth column.

israeli arabs are fifth column in israel.

you are dreaming. you lost all wars and must pay for this. nor jerusalem, no right of return, no 67 borders. you will get what we will decide to give you, no more.

To those considered responses to my originalpost, I thank you for engaging with the debate. I specifcally stated 'shame upon Israeli democracy' because I believe that ANY state, and this includes European and North American nations, which grants ethnic origin a primary place in political labelling is by default diseased. We are faced with two ways to define a person, by their body or by their mind. When stressing the importance of birth/kin characteristics, we automatically demote the intellectual and philosophical characteristics. Do we vote for the best and most interesting ideas, or do we vote for our kin grouping ? My criticism of Haaretz is, I believe, still valid, as they pushed Arabs into the catch-all 'other' category, thereby diminishing the validity of their presence in the democratic process. However, as newspapers generally reflect their society and readership, I assume that ideas and intellectual disposition take second place in todays's Israel.

you are lier as usual for leftwingers. in sinai there were dead people for example.

Naser, well said! Comments like this are a shining example of comments directed towards achieving the true basis of peace. Justice and security. Neither of which is achievable with unilateralism. Israel can engage in "disengagement" but it will not bring peace, in fact it will only prolonge the conflict. It is such a crying shame that so few others, both Israelis and Palestinians, see this. Their arrogance and blindness ensures that they and their children will continue to die needlessly.

Liam, To put it kindly, you overstate your case. For Haaretz to provide its readership with an ethnic breakdown of the Knesset's membership does not put Israel's democratic nature in question. It is not uncommon for journalists in the United States to categorize members of Congress based on race or religion to allow citizens to have a full understand of who is representing them --indeed, often it is liberal journalists who do so in order to encourage greater democratic participation among traditionally underrepresented groups. Moreover, Haaretz did primarily break down the new Knesset membership based on ideological distinctions (based on party) -- which is exactly what you require of a "proper" democracy. At the very least, you must admit that it at least newsworthy and relevant to publish information regarding the ethnic background of politicians when that ethnicity might serve as a proxy for an overall world view?

....actually I suspect that something closer to 100 MK's are of "Middle Eastern origin" since no doubt at this point the vast majority were born in Israel...how many generations of Jews have to be born in Israel before you stop thinking of them as transplanted Europeans...and by the way ALL Jews are of Middle Eastern origin....since that is where Jews come from....

...and if the Jews pulled out of Israel altoghether then nobody would be killed....why do you arbitrarily want to stop at the 49 (not 67 by the way) armistice lines?.....if you're going to save lives...save them all and get all the Jews to move out of Israel....

Unfortunately the sephardim are stupid, bar the Shas voters. They should have checked the list and not bothered to vote for the Steins and the Bergs. The ashkanazi hegemony continues and the sephardim have only theselves to blame. By the way Haaratz, whats the common ground between Kadima and Meretz? The former are mostly Likudniks dressed up as the centre, the latter don't even bother to dress up. They are as left as it get. Olmart in his speach last night put on a Kipper and said a pray to the almighty for the state and the people. To the latter the almighty is Chief Justice Barak.

Some have argued that because Olmert can cobble together a 61 seat majority, he has the legitimacy to do a pullout. The problem with this is that some of these Knesset members (notably: Pensioners; arguably: Labor, which prefers negotiated solution and whose campaign focuses on social issues) were not elected with this in mind. Democracies such as the US have a solution for this: for major diplomatic moves (such as treaties), a 2/3 vote of the Senate is needed. Other democracies bring crucial votes to a referendum--for example, in Europe, there were referenda with regard to EU Constitution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendum#Referendums_by_country lists various democracies which hold referenda with regard to ultra-important issues. Unfortunately, Israel has never completed work on a constitution. It is reasonable to believe that if there were a constitution, there would be some special mechanism for dealing with ultra-important issues.

Hi Liam, I agree with you! It is unecesary for Ha'aretz to break down the voting by ethnic groupings. But it is obvious that people are interested in reading this stuff. Take you and me and the rest who have written to this form for example. You are as guilty as Ha'aretz. If there was no interest in this story then it would not be read. I agree that we should attempt to be a society that is somewhat blind to ethnic differences. What I do not understand is why you would say "shame on Israeli democracy". It is not the knesset or Israeli democracy that is guilty of publishing this article. In the future please criticize an article without judging all of Israeli democracy for a newspapers actions. At least Israeli democracy allows newspapers the freedom to print this stuff. Who knows what they would call my children if they were elected to the knesset in the future. They are mixed Ashkenazi-Moroccan. Israel is filled with these new Israelis.

Liam is concerned about categorizing people by ethnic category. I don't know how things work in the Netherlands, but in the USA, we also look at our elected officials in ethnic as well as ideological terms. In Israel, we already know what the parties are, then we see how the ethnic divide breaks down (including how a Jew in Hadash is called Arab and the two Arab MKs in Labor and one in Kadima are considered Jews). In the USA, we count the number of women, Hispanics, gays, Asians, blacks etc., usually saying we meed more of the above. It is the same most democracies. In the Palestinian Territories, there are even set asides for Xians to ensure minority representation.

The Israeli-Arab voter participation in the last Israeli election was very low. The policy of the Israeli governments has not given the Arab populatin which is 20% of the Isreali population , doen not encourage the Arabs to feel tha they have a share of this pie no matter what to they do. Zionist members of the Kenest and the government look at arabs and Arab kenest members as strangers and many times they have questioned their loyalty.Arab Cities and towns are not given the same attention and development as the Israeli( JEWISH POPULATED TOWNS).I really question the authencity of a democracy that discriminates against it own people based on theit religion and ethnicity. he Arab population is also to blame because they have a divided leadership and the eligible voters do not exercise their right to vote.This self defeating behavior on part of the arab population must stop.Their vote is the only weapon that they have to improve themselves and change things for the better.

As many commentators have noted, this election turned out to be more about social issues than about diplomatic ones. Voters for Labor, Shas and Pensioners were focused on these issues. The only party whose raison detre was unilateral disengagement was Kadima. Kadima received 29 seats, much less than what was forecast, and less than the amount received by other parties in the past which have formed coalitions. Most of the seats in Kadima's coalition will be held by parties which did not actively support unilateral disengagement. It is difficult for Kadima to state that it has a clear mandate for this.

Switzerland is the exception and not the rule, observer, when you look at democracies. Although Herzl said: "In Basel I found the Jewish State", Israel is not in Basel. Israel is not in the position of Switzerland. In Israel the government has to lead. Politics has to be a little faster in the middle east than in the alps.

The future for the Israeli people is the brightest because of how they handled themselves in the past. Now(for the satisfaction of the West) we have a reason to attack the palestianians, and Hamas!! Lots of luck, Canada here

The term "Zionist parties" is a very thinly veiled term used to say that Arabs are not entitled to be Israeli citizens. However, the law says differently. Arab votes and representatives are fully equal under the law. The fact is that there are 71 votes for a pullout (even though only 61 are legally required). There are also probably 10 to 20 votes in the remaining 49. However, for purely political reasons they will always vote no to any government proposal. Nonetheless, the majority is clear. What is unclear is the strength of character of this new leadership. Will they get things done or act as if they do not have a majority? Will they be more part-focused or more nation-centered? Time will tell. And it will tell very shortly after the coalition is formed. The nice part is that extortion by Shas is not a prerequisite to any working coalition.

Switzerland, observer, is the exception and not the rule when you look at demoratic . But even in Switzerland, which I kow quite well, you need 50.000 citizens or eight cantons to have a referendum to change a law. Moreover; referendums slower the political process. Maybee the federal state of Switzerland can live with that but Israel

For the sake of an elementary logic, poor #1: If you are counting for a Zionist majority excluding the Arabs, exclude also a part of religious elected people which are not Zionist and you will have some 100 Zionist members in Knesset. From which the 54 members of Kadima, Labor and Meretz ARE a majority!! Not even counting the Pensioners which are about half Labor and half Kadima oriented. You had the referendum on March 28!!

Those who wrie that a legisative vote is sufficient to pass laws and/or set votes are correct. However the ramifications of forcing many thousands of families out of their homes are so great that this issue needs much more than a parliamentary vote. It should be thoroughly discussed by all Israelis. The pros and cons need to be honestly explained; no political pandering as politicians (in all countries) thrive on. A massive pullout which might be suported by 60% of Israelis and opposed by 40% would tear the nation apart. I believe that Israelis, given the facts and allowed to have direct input in a decision, will be able to reach a conclusion which the vast majority will accept. To do this they must be allowed to have a direct voice on te issue- this means a binding referendum. It also means that those who don't live in Israel should not try to influence the outcome by financing lobbying groups or "political propogandists." If you want to have a voice in the outcome you should live in Israel. You have no right to try to determine the final decision unless you're willing to physically share in it.

United Torah Judaism is not a zionist party. It is Jewish, but not zionist. It is not part of the zionist federation. Just learn the history of Agudat Israel, Degel Hatorah and United Torah Judaism. There are zionist, non-zionist and anti-zionist orthodox Jews. United Torah Judaism was never zionist.

Nice to see, even in liberal leaning Haaretz, the 13 Arab MPs being shoved to the side, like an embarrassing relative at a wedding. When counting the origins of each of the MPs, we are told that 34 are of Middle Eastern and North African origin, and that there are ALSO 13 Arab MPs. Yes, yes, before some of the more aggressive and cretionous posters on this forum start grunting, I do know that the count was supposed to distinguish between Jewish ethnic factions. My concern is the casual apartheid-style journalism. Firstly, in a vibrant democracy it should not be necessary to tabulate in such a fashion; a properly democratic nation would categorise based upon more meaningful philosophical and intellectual divides e.g. social left or right, instead of using the crudest and basest dividing-line possible i.e. that of ethnic origin. Shame on Haaretz, and shame on 'democratic' Israel. There are unequivocally 47 MPs of Middle Eastern or North African origin, NOT 34.

Do not try to sound like you are the only oracle delivering pure truth. You better get back to school and read instead of just calling yourself the reader.

#10 made the outrageous comment that UTJ should not count as a Zionist party for the sake of this discussion. #10 is off his rocker! The whole reason that Arab parties haven't been counted toward coalitions is that they believe that the Palestinians should rule the land, and therefore such parties cannot be trusted with security decision which may endanger Israel's existence. In contrast, Haredi parties have usually been part of ruling coalitions. True, they don't believe in Zionism, but then, neither do many leftists (who are "post-Zionists"). Haredi parties do wish to preserve Jewish lives, and that's what counts. Anybody who thinks otherwise has never met a real Israeli Haredi. In fact, Haaretz has reported that Haredim are typically more right-wing politically than even the National Religious.

My dear right-wing-fanatics you've lost the referendum. There's no need for another referendum. KADIMA (29) + AVODA (20) + GIL (7) + MERETZ (5)= 61 MKs. Shas is out. Yahadut Hatorah is out. Racist Lieberman + 10 clowns: you're not needed. There's the new government of Israel. Do the math, religious biggots.

The proposed unilateral ? withdrawal? will mean that Israel would consolidate its hold on the main settlement blocs and would also hold on to occupied East Jerusalem and the Jordan Valley. Palestinians would be confined to areas in the centre of the territory. They would be deprived of some of their best land and resources. Palestinians would not have East Jerusalem as their capital and would have no control over their borders and access to the outside world. What sort of offer is that? Get real.

democracies rely on parlaments and elections. It is unfair to let people vote unless you get the results you want. It would be a catastrophy to vote for a parlamentarian majority in favor of pullout and afterwards hinder the government to do what it was voted for. This would be a double bind message. Even if you #1 think a zionist majority for a pullout is needed and that the majority of Israeli citizens is not enough (a totally undemocratic idea, I think, although I am a Zionist), than you must accept that there are 54 seats of the zionist factions (Kadima, Labour, Meretz) in favor of pullout, but only 50 seats of zionist parties are either undecided or against (Likud, Shas, Israel Beiteinu, National Union-National Religious Party, Pesioners). United Torah Judaism is not a zionist party. So there is a Zionist majority in Israel in favor of the pullout.

democracies rely on parlaments and elections. It is unfair to let people vote unless you get the results you want. It would be a catastrophy to vote for a parlamentarian majority in favor of pullout and afterwards hinder the government to do what it was voted for. This would be a double bind message. Even if you #1 think a zionist majority for a pullout is needed and that the majority of Israeli citizens is not enough (a totally undemocratic idea, I think, although I am a Zionist), than you must accept that there are 54 seats of the zionist factions (Kadima, Labour, Meretz) in favor of pullout, but only 50 seats of zionist parties are either undecided or against (Likud, Shas, Israel Beiteinu, National Union-National Religious Party, Pesioners). United Torah Judaism is not a zionist party. So there is a Zionist majority in Israel in favor of the pullout.

Lou, you are mistaken. True, Kadima will manage to cobble together a coalition, because parties would rather obtain their main goals. For example, Shas clearly stated during the election campaign that it was against a unilateral withdrawal. But even more important to Shas are social issues, and Shas realizes that if it doesn't join the coalition, some other party may instead. As to numbers of people who died because of the Gaza withdrawal: on election day, two people died in Israel from handling a rocket fired from Gaza. In addition, around the time of the Gaza retreat, people inside Israel were killed by rockets. Also, the Gazans fired their first Iranian-manufactured missile (much more accurate) this week. Fatalities are unfortunately likely to come soon.

Simple--by recognizing reality and doing one's best to preserve all the values and accomplishments of Zionism, not subordinating Israel to an absolute requirement to keep every inch of the Land no matter what.

Because we want to live in both a Jewish State AND a democratic one. You obviously don't care about the latter....

It may be that the religious nationalist camp is just unfamiliar with how democracies function--parties rarely run on unambiguous platforms--that does mean that all important decisions need to be supported outside of the Knesset by a referendum for this or for that--if the Pensioners won't suport Olmert, Shas will, if not Shas, UTJ, etc.--if the parties support him, notwithstanding the parties did not run on explicit support for Olmert's plan in the platforms they offered to voters--the support of the parties in the coalition is enough--those who really really opposed disengagement had the option to vote for Likud, IB, National Union- NRP, and Barzels' transfer party. Those parties lost.

This business of "Majorities" is becoming very interesting in the USA and Israel. Lawmakers avoid referenda and the clear will of the electorate like the plague; so far, with impunity. In the US, over 2/3 of Americans (depending on the bias of the poll) demand that their representatives STOP ILLEGAL immigration. It's pretty unequivocal. This "Non-amnesty" the Senate is diddling with (i.e.: the 1986 FINAL AMNESTY with bells and whistles) pleases ultra liberal N.E. states, the dying Rustbelt, and ILLEGALS WHO VOTE for reps who'll give them more handouts for their legal and/or illegal votes. Olmert's W. Bank pullout likewise, continues the same fantastical, utopian belief in foolishness like Oslo & the Gaza pull out. Giving "something" for "nothing" has always resulted in disasters. What happens when there's no longer "something" to give away, unilaterally or otherwise? Why expect different outcomes from similar behavior? & What happens when the other shoe drops?ma

How can you be a Zionist and live in West Hempstead? Actually I forgot, you can only TRULY be a Zionist leaving outside of Israel, the rest of us live here. Btw, I voted for the Likud and would characterize myself as right wing.

Alan, the Zionist dream is coming to an end.

Alan, get real!! Who want to live with 4 million arabs in the same country. That is not Jewish land. No matter what do you say or want. They are there and we have to live with them as neihgbors. No other choice. Sooner, or later. Read history, but mainly, learn from it. Let us live in peace. After all, you do not live here. What do you know? How many years did you serve in the IDF? How many trees did you plant in Israel? How many children did you have in Israel? You, Americans, do not understand the situation at all.

It's a representative democracy. That's the referendum. And Kadima got 29 seats. Likud got 12. Labor got 20 seats. Yisrael Beiteinu got 11. Fantasy votes and non-voting citizens don't count. Real knesset seats do count. And if Olmert can get enough members together to vote for his proposals, then that's all the referendum that's needed. It's pathetic to hear a year after the first stirrings in Israel to withdraw from Gaza, that the Orange parties mouth the idea that a special referendum is needed. They didn't ask for one when the settlements were founded.

It's a representative democracy. That's the referendum. And Kadima got 29 seats. Likud got 12. Labor got 20 seats. Yisrael Beiteinu got 11. Fantasy votes and non-voting citizens don't count. Real knesset seats do count. And if Olmert can get enough members together to vote for his proposals, then that's all the referendum that's needed. It's pathetic to hear a year after the first stirrings in Israel to withdraw from Gaza, that the Orange parties mouth the idea that a special referendum is needed. They didn't ask for one when the settlements were founded.

If this holds it is a slim majority for Kadima/Avoda/Gil/Meretz(61 seats) This is probably better than getting Shas or NU/NRP on board(which Olmert may still want)because no demands will be have to be met regarding child benefit/yeshivas(which involve personal decisions). Social justice(economic growth, poverty, minimum wage) should be a priority as well as a negotiated settlement/unilateral withdrawal with proper arrangements for people who wish to to relocate. Israël deserves a govt that takes steps to make this happen.

Referendum or no referendum, the withdrawal is inevitable if Israel is truly seeking peace for its people and co-existance with its neighbors. In 1948 more than 700 thousand palestinians were moved from their homes and their land. The settlers in the westbank colonies are illegal and should be moved (they knew of their illegality when they settled). So any strife that may occur will be a pure Israeli internal matter -hopefully to be handled in a better way than was the case with the Gaza evacuees. And do not forget East Jerusalem. This area also must be vacated too. Remains the right of return. Palestinians should have the choice to return to the new Palestinian state or be compensated. Israel must talk to the PA and Hamas. This is the only way to peace. I fully agree with Lou. His vision of a future of peace and commerce and tourism ..etc is so to the point.

How can you be a Zionist but want to give up Jewish land?

#3 is wrong. Sharon made a big mistake in not undertaking a referendum on the Gaza withdrawal. Many on the right believed that he had no mandate for the withdrawal. That is why many engaged in illegal acts, feeling that the government did not have legitimacy for the withdrawal. As Shagrai notes in today's Haaretz(http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/700335.html), 75 Knesset members prefer negotiation to unilateral withdrawal. Olmert does not have a mandate to unilaterally withdraw. If he misinterprets his mandate, he is likely to invite public strife.

In the history of democratic societies it is well-accepted practice to conduct referendums on important issues concerning country citizens. Why you calling names a person who has his own /legitimate/ point of view? Perhaps you are the idiot, who is brain washed by contemporary Israeli liberal establishment covered with paradigm preventing you to see the whole picture? Behave Avrum.

Nothing is that simple dear #1. Shas and UTJ as long as they get what they want will vote yes for pullout. Kadima, Labor, Meretz, and say half of the Pnsioners are about 57, the 9 arab MKs will not vote in any case, so, who is against, Likud and Israel Beiteinu? 23 MKs? add to this UTJ, still 29. The big majority of Israel is for pullout, not against. Do not forget, religious people voted en mass, more than 85%, Labor and Kadima voted 55% or so. If you go for a referendum you have about 70% of the population for a yes. When will people like you understand that the only solution is to go back to the 67 lines with some cosmetic changes? Get real. By the way, how many IDF soldiers died in Gaza since the pullout? None? And civilians? None? Really? And in Lebanon? None? Ahh. and in Sinai? None? Really?? Anti pullout people, get real. Do you know what the relations with all the arab countries will bring to Israel in bussines, turism, etc? Go ahead and think for yourselves.

They did have a referendum, it was called an election and the people have elected a party that has clearly stood for withdrawl. Lets get on with it already.

The disengagement from Sinai didn't need anything like a referendum. The 16th voted with overwhelming majority for Gaza pullout and also now the people of Israel has truly spoken by electing parties that support a next pullout. Don't you realize that the elections are OVER and now begins the WORK?

It is one that is more validated by the people that voted: Labor, Kadima, Shas, Pensioners and Religious parties. It is more up to the desires and profoundly felt concept of the future Israel should hope for. Without the Religious elements in the decisions, it will be harder and less legitimate to implement far fetched social and political decisions. We all know what Haaretz is looking forward to happen; unless Haaretz burry itself in the sand and overlook the real peoples of Israel's hopes and desires, then Haaretz is talking to the choir.

Haaretz writes, "This is expected to guarantee Acting Prime Minister Ehud Olmert a Zionist majority in the Knesset in support of his plan to withdraw from the West Bank. This majority would be made up of Kadima, Labor, the Pensioners' Party and Meretz." But in fact, only Kadima, Labor and Meretz *(totaling 54 seats) are specifically in favor of the pullout. Those who voted for the Pensioners voted just for their social program, and the Pensioners party refused to take any position with respect to the pullout. While Olmert can form a coalition to carry out the pullout, he does not have a clear mandate for the unilateral pullout. In fact, it could be said that Labor and Meretz prefer direct negotiations to unilateral moves. If Olmert wishes to uproot close to one hundred thousand citizens from their homes, he should hold a referendum directed specifically at this issue.