Sharon slams London mayor's 'ignorance' on Hamas and Likud

Likud is a political party,which contests in free and fair local elections, against a broad array of rivals. When Likud loses popular support, it steps aside. Hamas is a self-appointed armed group, financially dependant upon foreign sources. Locals have no say. Hamas does not imagine an alternation of power with anyone. Hamas' goal is a totalitarian dictatorship. What Likud and Hamas have in common: both are comprised of populations that were displaced by the military adventures of Arab nationalists, Nasser in particular.

i dearly hope that you are not a representative of your nation. You are the barbaric one in suggesting taht ANYONE dies at the hands of terrorists. You have disgraced Israel

He, his city, and his country can go to hell as far as I am concerned.

One reason why Ferenzi doesn't understand "all these insults against Ken Livingstone" is that he is as ignorant of history as the Lord Mayor. He also doesn't seem to note the hypocracy of being against terror when it happens in London, but completely understanding of it when it happens in Israel. As to history, for example: "What are the alternatives that have been given to the Palestinians for 45 years?" Duh, how about PEACE!! What about Oslo and Barak's plan, which would have given the Palestinians all of Gaza and virtually all of the West Bank? Of course, every time that there has been serious progress towards peace, the terrorists go into overdrive because they have no interest in peace; they want to exterminate Israel. Israel has continuously shown that when an enemy is seriously interested in making peace, they will make peace (ask the Egyptians and Jordanians). So don't give us this garbage about no alternative! Or "Who ordered the genocide in Sabra and Chattila?" Actually, it was the (Lebanese Christian) Falange militia. Since Ferenzi has no clue what happened... This was during the chaos of Israel's 1982 incursion in Lebanon to stop terrorist attacks against Israel. The recently elected (by parliament) Lebanese President, Bashir Gemayel, was assassinated, and it was widely believed that Palestinians were responsible (as they had reason to get revenge against Bashir, himself a rather brutal thug). Bashir's supporters (his father had founded the Falange Party and militia) were out to get revenge. They took advantage of the situation on the ground; very soon after the Israelis swept through the area around Sabra and Chattila, chasing the Palestinian militias, the Falange militia went into the camp and committed the atrocity. No Israeli was involved. In fact, Ariel Sharon, who was deemed "indirectly responsible" because his troops had not stopped the Falangists from entering the camp, was the only one ever punished for Sabra and Chattila. The leaders of the massacre, Samir Geagea and Elie Hobeika, never were. In fact, Hobeika became a minister in the Lebanese government, and nobody complained. Incidentally, during the Lebanese Civil War, in 1975-1990, there were several massacres even larger than Sabra and Chattila, including one by the same Falange militia of Palestinians. Sabra and Chattila however was the only one where there was a way to blame Israel...

Contrary to many readers, I don't think KL's declarations are motivated by antisemitism or by communist ideology. Ken seems to be a relatively successful mayor of one of the major capital cities in the occidental capitalistic system. However, being of socialist tendencies, KL has a natural reaction of disgust and abhorrence of the acts of the Government of Israel. He isn't alone. Most civilized human beings reject outright any oppression of other human beings. ..Even when the oppressors are Jews! The real problem is the ignorance reflected in his declarations and probably the potential danger receled in them. Legitimizing suicide bombers (under the pretext that that is the only recourse they have against the occupying forces - they were just as occupying, oppressing and human rights' violating under Labor led governments!)only opens the way to the same discourse and apologetics for suicide bombers and terrorists all over the World, including the city of London! Maybe KL should take a long break from making idiotic declarations and spend that time studying and widening his narrow horizons. Thank-God for Tony Blair rebuking KL's statements in a very clear and open declaration that there is and can be no justification for terrorism and suicide bombing, no matter where and no matter under what circumstances.

Livingstone is fueled by Communist ideology as it was practiced in the former Soviet states and their ideology, as well as by their propaganda. It may be alittle known fact that after Worl War ll, anti-semitism was officially banned by Communist regimes. But, anti-semitism was simply replaced with anti-Zionism. Many Jews, including party member were tortured and murdered in the name of this ideology, including the Hungarian Jewish athlete who had won the gold medal in the 1936 Olympics in Berlin. Many prominent Jews were accused of Zionism, but in fact they were murdered because they were Jewish.

Livingsotne is selling the concept, that it's okay for Leeds Pakistanis to kill Brits, so long as they are aiming only for the Jews and doing it on behalf of the Arabs. I wouldn't want to try to sell this dead dog.

Sharon was only expressing what any thoughtful human being would say about that dismal product of a land that produced the 'Jew of Malta,' Shylock from 'The Mechant of Venice,' Dicken's Fagan, just some of the insidious caricatures of Jews the English celebrate.

There are two types of anti-semitic rhetoric in play in the Arab-Israeli conflict. First, is recognizable by its asymmetry: the Jews owe human consideration to the Arabs, the Arabs do not owe human consideraation to the Jews. The second type, draws from the established anti-semitic canon: AIPAC=the Elders of Zion. Livingstone is partial to the first kind. I haven't heard him say that America is ruled by the Jews, and that "real America" admires Yasser Arafat or Osama Bin Laden. Arguments of these two types still resonate in Europe. That is one of the reasons that the Arabs deploy them. In mulitcultural America, we recognize them for what they are.

What a mouth on a man in public office!!! Maybe he should run for mayor of the "new" Hamas community in Gaza, on ISRAELI land. He should read his history books - Chamberlain found out that appeasement doesn't work, not by conceding land as we are being forced to do, or by the kind of anti-semitic garbage Livingstone seems to spew every time he opens his mouth, for which he no doubt gets Brownie points from the Arab world. The world is struggling to hold a steady course. We do NOT need people like Livingstone who choose to cause unrest instead of using the same energy to try diplomacy to ease the situation - I don't believe he knows what the word means. Send him to Gaza - he does not belong in the company of decent people. That should be an appropriate milieu for him. EVERYONE there would probably hang on his every word. He has proved, all by himself, that anti-semitism is as rife as it ever was.

Ken is a total moron, he runs the most succesful city in Europe and he got Lady Thatcher to thank. How does that make Ken feel going to sleep. What a populist, as a European, one can only feel sadness for our representatives.

Boy,you hit the nail on the head.Why are the US taxpayers constantly asked to foot the bill as they are nowasked to give 2.2 billion to Israel to resettle the settlers and redeploy the IDF?We told them from the beginning we were against them building the settlements as an obstacle to peace,now they have the nerve to ask us to pay to have them removed and resettle everyone.This has been going on for too long.Israel should pay for this themselves,the US taxpayers are not responsible to support financial Israeli adventures.We need our US citizens to WAKE UP to the scam that the Isralei's are pulling over on the American taxpayers with the help of American Jews buying off our politicians.We need to let our politicians know this has to stop or vote them out of office.There are many traitors in our midst and unfortunatly many are in USA Congress.

I agree with the london prime minister look what sharon is doing in gush katif,

Perhaps the reason mr sharon is so excited is that Ken livingstone is speaking the truth. Likud is an extremist movement..........just like Hamas...perhaps Hamas are more honest about it.

London's mayor is an idiot. Soon or latter his country will be Great Britain of Islam anyway

Hi Ronnie, I empathise with you: the same happened to me last night, and it got quite nasty (you can see for yourself, if you're interested). It's not easy having a critical mindset on Talkback, Yair

One last comment though about something I didn't like about your message. You wrote that: "Because you stayed with an arab family and you had a wonderful experience, doesnt mean that that one family represents the majority of Palestinians" If you'd read my message more meticulously (I recommend #270), you would see that my experiences with Arabs have been far more profound that that. I'm an Arabic Jew for starters, and have spent a lot of time in the muslim world, surrounded purely by muslims, while never hiding my identity. In the light of that, "Because you stayed with an Arab family" sounds a bit denigrating. Because of the tone of the rest of your message, though, I assume it wasn't meant that way. A still-grateful Yair

If you think I've not had any personal experiences, as you state, you should read my messages again (particularly #270): I can't understand how you got to this conclusion, unless you make an effort to only see what you want. On a more general note: some of your remarks last night I found personally offensive, and I told you that it had affected me quite a lot. I still don't understand your totally cold reaction to that. I would personally care. Anyway, it's a shame to show no empathy while communicating. I hope (for you) that you're not like that in real life. Yair PS I'm already prepared for a similarly cold and offensive reply, don't worry.

Let's call a spade a spade. Sharon is dead wrong to call the London mayor "ignorant". Sharon and the rest of us know that anti-Semitism is rampant in the upper circles of British society. Livingstone's remarks are that and nothing more. "The thing speaks for itself", and the man is a pig.

Of course PZ, We Jews are all angels. We've never committed a crime. The (grand)parents of my Palestinian friends left their houses because they wanted to see other parts of the world. Extended tourism, let's call it. The refugee camp is like a Buddhist experience of strengthening stoicism. By the way, on their way out they were whistling and dropped by a cinema to watch a movie, while eating popcorn. I'm so impressed by your critical attitude. It's not worrying at all... And it certainly does not resemble any extreme right-wing ideologies. It seems we Jews have learnt from the experience, as we now unanimously condemn nationalism. I agree with you, we should all believe what we're being told by our countrymen (instead of our opponents), because their version is SOOO objective. An impressed Jew

Dear Tity, Thanks for your support! Last night things got a bit difficult, even personal, and I have to admit it affected me quite a bit. Not anymore though. Don't worry, everything is back to normal... Great to know that some people think in the same way. Speak to you soon, Yair PS I'm sending you a mail today.

Hi Chafeeka, Thank you for your very reasonable and intellectually stimulating message. I think you're totally right... I apologise if I've seemingly been engaging in Israel-bashing. I'm not anti-Israeli in any way, I just strongly oppose some of its policies. I'm making Aliyah in November, so that should indicate enough about my feelings towards the country... The totally uncritical stance of many people on this forum, though, really gets to me. It's like: my country is right, everybody else is wrong. There's no way of getting them to see even the tiniest nuances, it's a foregone conclusion: the Arabs are to blame. Now, I have much criticism on certain aspects of the Palestinian resistance as well, particularly in terms of its violence. However, venting that here is useless: we all agree. I try to incorporate certain balancing remarks into my messages, but I don't see the point in focusing on something about which broad consensus exists. You have shown me a new side of the argument though, which makes me understand the sensitivities a bit better... Thanks again, A grateful Yair

"you did say you were embarrassed" Good point! I had to think about that one... Yes, it's not so much guilt. Actually, I feel zero guilty because I know I'm acting against what I see as repression. It's more embarrassment... The image that Israel is getting (whether justified or not) is changing perceptions about Jews everywhere. I know that if I weren't Jewish I would certainly not be impressed by Israeli-style policies, so I kind of get their point... It's embarrassing in the sense that I don't want people to assume that me, my family and my friends are like that. The embarrassment is only secondary though. It's more a question of principles and justice. Anyway, gotta go back to work, Yair PS I like people challenging me with good arguments. Please continue! ;)

ken livingstone is an evil purveyor of vile hatred against both jews and the state of israel since he came to power.. this putrid little man should be forcibly removed from office and imprisoned for his ugly and disgusting views... OR BETTER STILL DEPORTED TO HIS ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALIST PALS IN ARABIA... FORTHWITH.....

Hi Tulip, With "boredom" I was referring to the amount of hours that I spent on studying one tiny area of academic knowledge for my PhD. I got really bored in the end! Imagine having to write 420 pages on one topic... Anyway, yes, I know a few people in Jerusalem already, and I'm sure that on campus I'll meet many more. Israelis are so sociable that I have no worries about that issue. How is your physical condition now? I mean, I was a bit worried about what you said about your heart... Ik geef je mijn email adres hierbij... Als je-weet-wel-wie me hatemail gaat schrijven delete ik het wel weg! ;) aharonbarna@yahoo.es OK gotta goooo! Work is calling!

Interesting how Paul Harris states a war criminal has to be convicted after a trial just like any other criminal, but Israel decides who is a criminal by assassinating Palestinians without giving them due process of law to know if they are innocent or guilty of any crime or detains some of them for years without charges. The fact is that Ariel Sharon is a war criminal cleared only by his own country as having indirect responsibility, which is not saying too much since Israel is very easygoing on all its criminals provided they are of the "proper" religious background.

Mr Murray, just hold your horses , Your hysterical rant about Likud is way off the mark. Every action taken by the IDF is specifically a response to a terror act committed against inncocent Israeli citizens . Israel has never , I repeat never directly aimed a military action against innocent Palestinian citizens. You may or may not agree with the politics of Likud but one suspects such a uncontrolled rant to have ulterior motives.

Monsieur, tout d'abords Je crois que Ken Livingstone n'a pas un doctorat. Il est simplement monsieur Red Ken de la maison de Trotsky. Felicitaions de Londre a Boulogne sur mer

I agree with you that at some times, most countries were occupiers and most countries should examine their own histories before they come down on others. But you also need to brush up on your American History. Texas was won in a war between the residents of Texas (who were living under Mexican rule), mostly fought by the Texas Rangers (which I believe were not part of the Federal Army) and the Gov't of Mexico and thereafter became an independent country. The Tejanos, or Mexican descendents living in Texas at the time also wanted to separate from Mexico, which was even more corrupt then then it is now. Later Texas was voted in as a state by the popular vote of the people. Texas is the only US State that was it's own country and was never a territory of the United States. It nearly didn't join the Union. California, Arizona, New Mexico etc were bought by the US Federal Gov't from Mexico, became territories,and then by popular vote, became states. Actually, Spain/Mexico were the occupiers of what we now know as the Southwestern and Western States (Spain), not the United States. Most of the US was bought with hard currency from the original "occupiers", Spain and France (Louisiana Purchase).

BM Who are you to point a finger at Johanes? You make dreadful racist statements about the Palestinians too. Dutch

bonjour, j'ai lu dans la presse britannique(Mail,Guardian,Telegraph,etc...)les différentes déclarations faites par le maire de Londres.C'est un homme de médias qui aime bien se montrer.Ensuite, il ambitionne de succéder à Tony Blair à la tête du Labour...C'est un aparatchyk du parti trés à gauche. Mais voilà comment " l'anti-sionisme du début devient le nouveau visage de l'anti-séministme". S'agissant des critiques adressées à Israel ou aux israeliens. En Israel, on accepte les critiques au cours de discussions très animées à condition de savoir de quoi on parle(lorsque l'on est étranger) et d'apporter des arguments sur le pays,la vie de ses habitants, des institutions d'Israel et d'y aller régulièrement.Allez -y, vous verrez, les israeliens aiment discuter, mais ils n'aiment pas les remarques gratuites comme on pourrait les faire à des enfants "fais pas ça, fait ceci...)c'est ce que l'opinion internationale a tenté de faire, à commencer par l'union européenne.Mais cela, n'a jamais marché.

It was my fault. In the discussion between PZ and Yaakov I put my big mouth into the situation. Its funny,but I cannot stand the arrogance of many of these right wingers,their tone. Most cannot simply state their case,without ridicule.Proud Zionist is rude. Sarah is from Somewhere,not Nowhere. Yaakov has a mindset about Israel. I think anyone who states one side case only is fighting for that side only and not truth.He is guilty of the same type of perception as that of PZ. Loyalty to their worldviews. I didnt mean to jump in on that except to get upset at the language PZ uses which I think borders on 'personal attacks'. I search for truth and will continue to do so. And apart from the sidetracking that human emotions will throw me into,hope to continue.Its tough enough to get through myopic rhetoric but then to get see personal attacks throws me of my own route. Anyway,I continue the fight. Regarding Hamas I hope to see the end of my interrogation about why I said they should keep their weapons while they were part of the political spectrum,that would constitute a choice and they blew it. Still of course lots goes on behind the scenes and although we make decisions based on the known,we cannot know what transpires between the parties themselves.This is not about Hamas and the gun,it is about the real deals being brokered all around behind the political scenes.The fact that Hamas used the gun,and condoned Jihad may not be the disaster that I thought it was,its possible more is going on under the surface and that could mean in a myriad of ways.Still I stand by what I said and the pseudo (because it is here) strategy I suggested. I will however try to evade any personal attacks and read the content more,and hope that Haaretz will do something about some of these comments too.

Obviously not worth a mentionj I would love to hear your reasoning. An imposed solution involves Israel entrusting third parties on Security.The UN has proved to be unreliable liars.(witnessed the trans-border kidnapping of Israeli soldiers in UN marked vehicles and lied about it.) Does the USA want to commit troops for Hamas/Islamic Jihad target practice.? I won't sully my mouth by saying any more about the Europeans then appeasers with their heads deeply burried using the Israel /Palestinian issue for their own anti US agenda. How do see it?Kickout all the Jews and all terror will stop?

" "Hamas is a murderous terrorist organization, which has murdered and wounded of thousands of Israelis," Sharon said in remarks broadcast Monday on Israel Radio." Whereas the Likud is a murderous, legal organisation whose actions have led to the murder and wounding of even more thousands of Palestinians by getting the IDF to do their racist dirty work. Likud is a dangerous, nasty racist group who believe in the racial superiority of Israelis over Palestinians so deserves every criticism.

Yair thanks a lot..i really dont know how to thank you...i read today the things you wrote in your posts...very interesting things and MANY MANY similarities to my experiences. I got loads to tell you about International Relations by the way as it was my domain. How weird ha? Again thanks a lot for the support, u can email me at titymatsa@hotmail.com :) Un abrazo,

dear doris the below is to be found on the forum run by yiur good friend johanes franzi - please understand why israelis and jews do not ever see you (who welcome his comments) and he who is blatantly a racist the following comments are from a welcomed pakistani lady writing on franzis hate site please read the comments and know not only about the writer (a pakistani living in the uk) but about the person who is not only permiting such writing but is encouraging it quote:- Do PIGS fly in Israel. Probably do - since all the Russian pork loving jews emigrated to Israel. OINK. unquote

You seem not to get the real facts in a straight manner, I suggest you update yourself on a few Middle East reality by reading : www.arabsforisrael.com www.shoebat.com

The Mayor has not only made a strong point in his comparison between hamas and the likud, but has made it clear that he is a civilized leader that has the capacity to understand others regardless of his own people's hardships. And beyond this, even the people of london, are fully aware of the mistakes their leadership has committed. This in fact is a proof of how amazing these people are. Regardless of how much Blaire and Straw tried to steer away from the connection between the war in Iraq and the tragic events of london , most of the poeple survayed in various polls made it clear that they are not buying what Blaire is selling. They believe, and rightly so, that there is a clear connection between the war in iraq and these traqic events. Furthermore, sharon of all people has no right to accuse hamas of being a murderous organization. All what he needs to do is take a look at his own record which speaks for itself in a much louder voice than that of any other terrorist organization. This is of course not in anyway a justification of what hamas does. In fact it is absolutely not acceptable, and so is the work of sharon. Only a strong leader can stress this point clearly, the Mayor of london is a perfect example of such a leader. Because of him, london and its people have my out most respect. I wish Blair and Straw could learn from him and not from sharon and Bush. But obviously it makes all the sense from a political stand point to refuse any connection between the Iraq war-which is a complete mess and a clear mistake- and what is happening in london.

In y our post you say that criticizing Israel folks here give you flack. It is very important not to frame the discussion in polarized terms. Deconstructing unfair criticism of Israel does not preclude fair criticism. Indeed, Israel's own parliament represents the entire political spectrum, where criticism of the country and its policies is often the order of the day. It is neither disloyal nor anti-Semitic to criticize Israel, as long as that criticism expresses both fairness and a respect for the complexity of the political situation. One can reasonably take a position that both sides have erred and both must assume some share of responsibility. But this is not the usual tone of the Jewish Israel-haters. It often seems as if Israel can do no right and the Palestinians no wrong. And this justifiably raises suspicion. Any position that demonizes Israel and exonerates the Palestinians flies in the face of reality and must be questioned. It tells us far more about those who hold the position than it does about Israel. Right now Israel's enemies are getting away with a very cynical public relations maneuver: You can demonize Israel, then when Israel's supporters protest, you accuse them of calling you an anti-Semite, even when they don't. The next step is to find Jews who are willing to express their own hatred for Israel. Then you can assert that because Jews are saying the same things, you're not an anti-Semite, even when you are. Israel should be criticized when warranted, but when Israel is criticized, it's important to examine the nature of that criticism and to understand what actually may be driving it. Because you stayed with an arab family and you had a wonderful experience, doesnt mean that that one family represents the majority of Palestinians

Whatever intercommunal bad feeling Livingstone stirs up, will be paid for by the Pakistanis, and not by him.

you know that Muhammed married a child right? The thought of an old man becoming aroused by a child is one of the most disturbing thoughts that makes us cringe as it reminds us of pedophilia and the most despicable people. It is difficult to accept that the Holy Prophet married Aisha when she was 6-years-old and consummated his marriage with her when she was 9. He was then, 54 years old. do you know of other prophets attracted to kids in such a way? that should answer if he is a true prophet or false

by the same set of circumstances abbas is a war criminal not only does he not stop terrorists from killing israeli civillians but actively encourages them. i am afraidd that whatever happened sharon failed to eliminate the plo! thus causing untold jewish and other deaths !

The fact remains, Israel is the invader. The Arabs were living there, growing olives etc. peacefully when the OK was given for Jews to come and live in equality among the Arabs. We have seen what the Jews actually did. They have staged massacres, murders. Two weeks ago the settlers attempted to "lynch" a 14 year old Palestinian, last week they managed to kill an 11 year old child. Yes, I believe what I said and I will also say I wouldn't care if Israel would drop off the map. It was a Holy Land to more than the Jews but the Jews have made it a land of blood and hatred. The US and Britain have brought peace to the world in past times, we have fed the millions all over the world for decades. It is Judah that creates strife and war where they are and right now they are a millstone around our necks. We are hated because we have given support to Israel. It is time for that support to end.

Based on your disingenous posts yesterday, I don't have much faith in the accuracy of your statements. I will need to do my own research. "PT you are implying that Palestinians should demolishe Tel Aviv University since it is built on a Palestinian village." I think they would if they could. They tried to destroy the Jewish community in 1947/1948. They didn't succeed and have suffered the consequences of their aggression ever since.

Puffed up pop-in-jays have a way of being deflated. Your egoist diatribe means nothing and accomplishes nothing. Keep going, you are making my point with every post. How much lower can you go?

YOU really are pumped full of PA propaganda.This is why you did not hear about the Israeli plan of unifying ARAB families.Of course you also did not hear that under that banner many PA Arabs sneak into Israel because this is where they want to live.One woman had three babies in one year! PA gays flee into Israel in large numbers because in their beloved homeland they will be dead either by their own family or others in their loving community.Stop repeating the silly nonsense you collect like diamonds. And stop hating so much.It eats you alive and it distorts your thinking.The PA propaganda this this to you not the Jews,Get it?

Thanks, Ned for your history lesson on the Moroccan Quarter. What I want to know is who attacked Israel on May 15, 1948? And who is attacking Israel today? To all proud Zionists out there, don't let the Neds of the world provoke you. Keep you eye on the ball. When Hamas says no mas, Likud will wither away. Until then, Jerusalem is Israel's.

I don't understand all these insults against ken livingstone, after all can someone demonstrate the contrary of what he said: -What is the reason of the us force bases in the middle east(saudi arabia,quatar...etc)? -Didn't we created oussama bin laden?(i'll remind you guys that 25 years ago we treated him as an hero while calling a real freedom figther like nelson mandela terrorist) -How can a serious person in that part of the world believes in us when we said we want democracy in iraq while at the same time we're "kissing" the saudis? -What are the alternatives that has been given to the palestinians for 45 years? -Who order the genocide in sabra and chatila? -My country,to be taken seriously would have started by sweeping the saudi monarchy:90% of the madrassas(islamist and jihadist schools) of pakistan are funded by the saudis. -I think we must leave those countries alone and find the alternatives to oil(we have universities and researchers who can do it). I'm not making any apology for the terrorism(i endorsed totally the war in afganistan,but the war in iraq is a racket)what i'm trying to say is that we have to stand in front of the mirror and ask ourself if what we've been doing in the middle east for the last 80 years is fair. -Another thing is that i don't understand why such a big part of the american taxpayer must be spent to defend israel instead of imposing the peace in that part of the world.

One Billion Muslims need the light you are showing them . Be encouraged The enemy of darkness cannot stand the light of truth .

WHAT`S IT MEAN ``Besides, is he not a true zionist?`` A ZIONIST IS JUST A JEWISH PATRIOT ...IS ALL... WE ARE ALL PROUD ZIONIST`S

she is only here to spread out lies and hatred. I just do not agree with hainous behaviours. she might have been very frustrated, it`s not a reason for being a hateful crusader. first off Bainem you must follow the Muslims cult otherwise you wont try to speak behind my back the way you do and please no need dto apolotize for my poor behaviour I MEAN EVERY WORD I POST If you choose to live in denial that Islam is a cult of death and is dangerous even to YOU and using ME as your scapegoat accusing me of crusading?? hey fella what era do you come from?

Where did you learn your history ? It looks as though you are a graduate of the university of lies and horrors run on the PA TV and in its papers.All the wounds the PA ARABS suffer from are self inflicted.True,they were saddled with a killer as a leader who worked like mad to destroy every chance of peace with Israel.Sharon did not kill the Arabs of the camps in Lebanon,the Christian soldiers who were butchred like dogs by the Muslims did. RED KEN is a boor and a bore who lies and exposes his city to Muslim terror by ignoring and appeasing it.Israel did not send these sad Muslims to london.They came in invited by the government who finally lives to regret it.

YESHAYAHU (ISAIAH) Chapter 43 . " But now thus said the L-RD - Who created you , O Jacob , Who formed you , O Israel ; Fear not , for I will redeem you; I have singled you out by name , You are Mine . When you pass through water , I will be with you ; Through streams, They shall not overwhelm you. When you walk through fire , You shall not be scorched ; Through flame , It shall not burn you . For I the L-RD am your G-D , The Holy One of Israel , your saviour.............."

she is only here to spread out lies and hatred. I just do not agree with hainous behaviours. she might have been very frustrated, it's not a reason for being a hateful crusader.

hi Alikospah you really believe what you said in your post In the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, no matter what approach the US takes, there will be problems. Suppose the next US president does a great job, he's deserving of the Nobel peace prize, but there is stll tension, problems and conflicts. The Quran addresses a serious problem. The believers were struggling to get along with ther neighbors. since Israeli neighbours are Muslim so we check the Quran that might offer a solution what is the Quranic response to the difficulty? Quote: [2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. Quote: [5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, Even if one were make the absurd argument that that most or even all humans could not design a better solution. Wouldn't it make sense to say that an All-mighty, all-merciful, All-Wise God could have invented a better solution? Best regards,

Tulip , thankyou for your very helpful advise . May the blessing of BAMIDBAR (NUMBERS) 6 : 23-27 Amen and Amen . be upon you and all those you love and upon all Jews in the earth and upon Israel .

Ha! of course to you it would be. If you know about british politics, I can only draw an analogy to the BNP. To make it closer to you, Were the SS not proud of wearing the swatsika? Oh yeah, that gays poster, i have seen a better one it says : "which country in the ME gives right to LGBT?- Only Israel!". The poster forgot to mention, that if your mother is not Jewish you cannot get married in Israel, or that if you are a Palestinian you cannot live with your wife in Israel or a whole load of the other laws enacted to preserve the Jewish nature of the state! Exactly as the BNP wants to preserve the white nature of Britain! Thank God they are not in Power. That would give Israel an example!

How long a lie can go on in a mad world?

"in case you never realized , your posting on a Jewish ZIONIST newspaper`s website...." Well, I have noticed that. But was it you or someone else who asked the webmasters to stop posting our 'crap'! Besides, is he not a true zionist? Does he not believe the this land has been given by G-D, only to 'His People'? If we are not His people, i wonder who created us?

you did say you were embarrassed

you did say you were embarrassed

Sumayah is wise. I have read many of her posts. She has her reasons. Just as you have yours and i have mine. salaam/shalom

``What a true zionist! congratulations!!`` in case you never realized , your posting on a Jewish ZIONIST newspaper`s website.... ``

No need to adress a particular post of yours, they`re all the same.. pure hatred and lie, concentrated in unfinite messages. to waiste one`s time, I prefer at least fox news. What`s your problem, are you being a crusader? Were you disappointed by a muslim who has left you after a love story? I completely understand him if you were as bitter as now. isnt it typical of your ilk to swim around the issue of terror excuse me.. you dont swim in the desert.. maybe youre having a bad vision... if you want to know the truth what turned me off Islam Ill tell you gladly! to think that muslims could have it in them to fly airplanes into buildings and kill kill kill thinking that is what Allah made them do is what did it! verses like these killed it. "Wherever ye are, death will find you out, even if ye are in towers built up strong and high!" (Quran 4:78) O Prophet! make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. Q. 66:9 arent you ashamed now belonging to such a "religion" that is hungry to kill thinking Allah asks them to????

It's sad to say but the EU is ruled by this type of ignorend people. They look deep down on and disregard the interest of the hard working commen people who realy don't know nomore at this moment how to make ends meet. This because they always need to pay the bill of the next stupid mistake their leaders are making. And it seems they are only making mistakes when they do something. Madness. London has Livingstone......Amsterdam has his Cohen. Same cup of tea. In Holland they come out of the meltingpot of purple/red/green politics. Dangerous bunch who brought the country on his knees. They only needed 30 years. Holland was so famous to point out misbehaviour of other countries. Super hypocrits.

Thats an insult?? Most of us see it as a badge of honor :) http://www.bluestarpr.com/docs/gay.pdf

PT yesterday said : "You do realize of course that the neighorhood had been Jewish for generations until the Jordanian army conquered it in 1948 and expelled all the Jews, stole their property and then desecrated all the their relgious sites." Two issues to raise here. 1. The old jewish quarter constituted about 20% of the area of the moroccan quarter. As since 1193 most of that area has belong to the Islamic Waqf, it was impossible to sell it to anyone! Jews lived in houses either rented from the waqf, or in an adjacent areas which was privately owned. Once the armistace was signed the Jews left the area. In June 10th 1967 the inhabitants of the Moroccan quarter were asked to evacuate, later that night the whole area was destroyed to make room for the Western wall Plaza and the remaining of the Jewish Quarter. 2. PT offers a very fine argument! by such an argumnet, PT you are implying that Palestinians should demolishe Tel Aviv University since it is built on a Palestinian village. Or maybe Kfar Sava, which is also built on the Ruins of Palestinian Kufur Saba. or for that sake all of the Israeli towns, They all lie on the remains of 480 destroyed villages. Don't they? Yes, PT, part of the area has been Jewish, but not the whole thing. and since 1967 the Jewish quarter has expanded, by expropiration more than otherwise 4 or 5 times.

So, the IRA is right to blow up civilians in London! After all they only have their bodies to use against the might of the British Army.I wonder whether Livingstone would be so patronising if this happened.

"Along with islam and all other religions they are not to be trusted, they are liars ." What a true zionist! congratulations!

I do not know much about the Quran, Tulip At this time everybody should get interested and understand even a little who is the evil phantom that is against democratic values that desires to spread via violence instilling terror in free countries killing innocents. 2001 was a turning point for me when the WTC came down. The inspiration the terrorists got is from none other than .... "Wherever ye are, death will find you out, even if ye are in towers built up strong and high!" (Quran 4:78) how horrid! the only way to stop these folks is by learning about them and knowing how they think

Who cares about Likud or Hamas? Why should anyone outside of Israel even know the difference? The fact is, Britain and the US have suffered terrorism because we have given support to Israel. It is time for that support to end. Let them go elsewhere. I do not support the means Israel uses, the land grab, forcing innocents out of their homes, to create a state when they were only offered a place to live in equality.

Hey, it's just a talkback! and getting away from the subject is what you both have been doing for a while.. Proud Z is intelligent, he surely have a good heart, it's just his mind that is too "zionist".. I mean, one can back Israel, as you do, but another will be blinded by his beliefs, which take precedence over his reasonnable mind. Proud Z might be too close to the events, and may feel obliged to back his camp 100%, and this makes him give up nothing, thinking it's gonna feed the other camp. Ronnie, le fier est aveuglé par sa cause, tout comme tant d'autres. Amicalement

No need to adress a particular post of yours, they're all the same.. pure hatred and lie, concentrated in unfinite messages. to waiste one's time, I prefer at least fox news. What's your problem, are you being a crusader? Were you disappointed by a muslim who has left you after a love story? I completely understand him if you were as bitter as now.

Be sure that quoting a religious book to make a point will just convince few initiated. Very usual to exclude the others.

Why do you assume that someone posting with a Jewish name is not a Palestinian in Hebron or vice wersa? Why hasn't any Mulsim on the board answered two of my question? If the PLO is trying to liberate the West Bank and Gaza, why was it formed before 1967 when Israel first occupied the West Bank?

According to BERESHEET ( GENESIS ) Chapter 18 : 20 - 22 . If the words of a prophet do not eventuate he is a false prophet and you are not to fear him . Islam bases their control on fear . SECTS OF ISLAM : Muhammed predicted that his followers would become divided into 73 sects , every one going to hell , except one sect , the religion professed by himself and his companions . However the number of Islamic sects now number over 150 . This clearly makes Muhammed a false prophet worshipping a false god ( the moon god ) . One billion muslims are controlled by a strong spiritual DELUSION . May G-D open their eyes that they may see . AMEN .

I am a primary care physician. During the summer of 1982 I worked as a health worker in West-Beirut which at the time was besieged by the Israeli army. I witnessed Black Thursday the 12th of August when Israeli warplanes carpet bombed West-Beirut from the southern suburbs to the campus of the American University in the northern part. On that day hundreds of innocent people died as a result of the terror from the skies. As a trauma nurse I witnessed the results of this carnage. And all of this happened when the decision to evacuate the Palestinian forces had already been agreed upon! The worst was yet to come. After the Palestinian military had left Beirut the Israeli army broke its promise and occupied West-Beirut and surrounded the Palestinian refugee camps, Sabra and Shatila among them. Sharon, in his capacity as Defense minister, then sent groups of christian phalangist militiamen into the camps, 'to mop up'. He had made a false claim that there were still '2000-3000 terrorists' left behind in the camps. The operation took place only two days after Bashir Gemayel, the president elect, charismatic and ruthless leader of the phalangists, had been assassinated. Sharon had told AP that Palestinians were responsible, thereby heating up the atmosphere. In preparation for the 'mopping up' operation he held meetings in Beirut with the military and political leadership of the phalangists. Israeli army commanders like Eitan, Drori and Yaron made comments on how obsessed the phalangists were with revenge, talking about 'a sea of blood'. Sharon too was very well aware of the state of mind of the phalangist killers. But he went ahead any way and gave the green light. I was working in Gaza hospital in Sabra camp as part of a team of European and American doctors and nurses, helping our Palestinian colleagues. The phalangists came to the hospital, arrested us and brought us to the edge of Shatila camp. During our march we saw the shocking sight of murdered civilians lying in the street. The militiamen shot and killed a Palestinian medical colleague, who thought he would be safe in our company. They then set about to line us up against a wall to kill us. All the while the Israelis were watching from the perimeter of the camps. An Israeli army officer rode up and prevented our execution. We were taken to the Israeli military headquarters which was only a 100 yards away from the phalangist headquarters. While all this took place machine gun fire from the camps continued and we saw fresh groups of militiamen moving through the Israeli lines into the camps. It was sickening. Also sickening was the sight of an Israeli army bulldozer with Hebrew markings being used by the phalangists to bury the dead. I came back to Sabra and Shatila the day after the massacre ended and witnessed the terrible carnage that had been wrought by the phalangists. How many people were murdered I do not know. When the autumn rains in November blocked the sewage canals in the camps it turned out to be bodies that were causing the blockage. It is estimated that between 1200 and 2000 people died. The Israeli army as the occupying power was responsible for the safety of the civilian population. There were no armed 'terrorists' left behind in the camps. As it turned out the civilian population was unprotected. Who is responsible? Of course the killers themselves. Today they still are free men. The overall responsibility however is Sharon's. He could have stopped the operation, which of course was meant to terrorise the Palestinians out of Lebanon. That he knowingly gave the green light makes him a cold blooded and calculating war criminal. What we saw in Lebanon in 1982 was a prime example of Israeli state terrorism. Ken Livingstone's remarks are far from ignorant!

To all israelis and jewish.. before you said anything about the suicide bomb. Lets just start our nice discussion with counting how many palestinians and muslim around the worlds that you have been killed, and compare that with the number of israelis victims... i bet you'll be surprise to see the figures and for sure you'll agree with what the pope said!!! Just in case you can't count number, dig these infos from googles.. :-)

Islam uses the spirit of Witchcraft ie ( the combined spirits of manipulation , domination , and intimidation ) to force , through fear , nations to do what they want them to do . Like Rome . Look at weak spain ? Their obeying of islam's demands to withdraw their troops from Iraq has just encouraged islam to spread their murder to other countries and will not stop spain from being bombed again . Muslims responds to one thing , that is strong ruthless force . G-D maybe using them for the judgement of the nations but their end will be the same as babylon's . G-D will destroy them on the mountains of Israel..Oh!! L-RD G-D of THE UNIVERSE let it be soon .

Bill, I suggest you keep track of Joachim Martillo's postings. He urges Rome to condem ISrael and if not, their quilt over the Holocaust is in vain.

I must say, Sumayah, your mails are always very interesting to read. You are very articulate as well. It is a pity I do not know much about the Quran, for I do not want to adapt things I am not sure of, but I studied Moroccan family law as part of my work with Moroccan immigrants, so I do know that the non-division between state and church has tremendous implications for especially women. You are a mysterious person but keep on posting!

Running true to form : Out of the lips of all popes : " Rome never changes " Rome is responsible for millions of true gentile believers in the G-D of Israel and jewish people throughout history . The progroms , inquisition , holocaust , the crusades to name a few incidents . Like Islam they make one comment and secretly believe another . Along with islam and all other religions they are not to be trusted, they are liars .

Proud Zionist maybe you should take a look at post #269 from Avram It also criticizes Yaakov but the man has sechel and knows how to say it eloquently,not in your manner. Maybe you could learn.

The sad fact of the matter is that the people who flew planes into the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon, who blew up commuter trains in Madrid, who blew up subway trains in Londonarabia, who blow themselves up in ice cream parlors and discoteques in Israel in hopes of scoring with 72 virgins, who blew up vacationers in Bali, who commit acts of demonic brutality against their corelgionists in Algeria and Iraq, are, without exception, Muslims."" Greetings May I continue with poster 109 and add that folks vie for Palestinian state and say its going to be among other things "democratic" that makes me wonder... do they know anything about democracy or Islam? Democracy implies equality. But equality is unacceptable in Islam. In Western democracy, the people are sovereign; in Islam sovereignty is vested in Allah and the people are His caliphs or representatives. The laws given by Allah through His Prophet (Shari ?ah) are to be regarded as constitutional principles that should not be violated.Ayatollah Khomeini called democracy "a form of prostitution" because he who gets the most votes wins the power that belongs only to Allah. Sayyed Qutb, the Egyptian who is credited to be the ideological mentor of Safalists, spent a year in the United States in the 1950s and wrote: " America is a nation that has forgotten God and been forsaken by Him; an arrogant nation that wants to rule itself." So what kind of government Islam is proposing? Democracy means the rule of people. This is unacceptable in Islam. The Quran is empathic that ?to Allah belong all Dominion and power? (2.165, 35:10, 35:13, 64:1). The words ?No judgment but God?s? (la hukm illa li-llah) is based on several Quranic verses (esp. 6.57; 12.40, 67 etc.) This power is vested on His regent known as Khalifat al-Allah. The Khalifa cannot legislate. He can only interpret the Law given in the Quran and the sunnah So what kind of government Islam is proposing? Democracy means the rule of people. This is unacceptable in Islam. The Quran is empathic that ?to Allah belong all Dominion and power? (2.165, 35:10, 35:13, 64:1). The words ?No judgment but God?s? (la hukm illa li-llah) is based on several Quranic verses (esp. 6.57; 12.40, 67 etc.) This power is vested on His regent known as Khalifat al-Allah. The Khalifa cannot legislate. He can only interpret the Law given in the Quran and the sunnah and apply it.Islam Online O Prophet! make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. Q. 66:9 Let us search Quran, the source of all knowledge and truth. Let us see what Quran has to say on this. God gradually reduces the land controlled by unbelievers...21:44 (Quran) What is the message in the above verse? God (Allah) clearly says that He will make sure that the unbelievers will slowly start losing their land when a country falls under the hand of Islam. Is there any confusion? I ask those Islamists who always hide under the pretext of 'misquoting', 'out of context' argument.. Can you please tell us: is it a misquote? What is the context of this verse? Ibrahim, Khalil, Khaled, Dutch Rosgarten Sarah from somewhere Franzen Sullivan I particularly address my post to you who blindly fight for the Palestinian cause

they will screw it up anyway, and Israel will take it over again.

Yair, do not feel offended. It is not worth it. I hope you will be able to build relations, maybe through your profession. Where does boredom stand for? Tulip

Thanks for the last word,as you are aware it negated everything you said in your post but you dont care about that.Thats what you feel is funny. You can be articulate and then bang.Cannot let that go. When right wing despots call for the carpet bombing which Ive heard here of Gaza after the settlers leave that to me is disgusting but also you and PZ's arrogance in playing with these words. I consider it in the 'Personal Attack' area of the rules and maybe Haaretz should take a look again at these. I know merchandising is not a strength of some of right wing thinking. To me its rude. But hey from whence it comes.

There is a principle which is throughout the Tanakh ( Bible ) that is - everything happens first to the Jew then the Nations . The nations stood by and watched Israel suffering at the hands of the mad islamic faith , and did not even care .Now the nations are being suicide bombed .

I wonder how the world would react if the london and madrid terrorism was proven to have been ordered by the leadership of Iran or Libia or Syria or Lebenon. Would they promiss to provide them with $50,000,000.00 each and every month to help them foster their state sactioned Terror. Israel Wake up there is no action or act that you undertake that would appease the worlds hatred against the "Jew". I do not live in Israel but am astonished at the stupidity of the leadership that goverens them. historicly there never was any period that the middle east was in peace. I understand that it is repugnent to demand that the entire moslem population be expeled to any other country as such is defined as "Ethnic Cleansing" but to make the rest of the middle east Juden Rein "JEW FREE" is laudable and encoraged by the entire world. Do what ever you think may bring you a measure of peace but know that your childern and grandchildern will either be totaly eradicated or have to continually be at war with the moslems to understand their idology just read a book called "HAJ" it is both telling and very frighting.

Ronnie- on these forums things sometimes get heated, but overall Proud Zionist writes substantive points rather than just emoting. It is important when possible to expose people like Yaakov for who they are, because it explains why they won't address substantive facts, but rather mindlessly regurgitate propaganda. And in the case of outright self-haters like Yaakov or to those like Yair who only pipe up when it's time to express their embarrassment "as a Jew" it is all the more important to both counter their points and to expose them when possible. This is because those not in the know are liable to assume that because the anti-Israel viewpoint is being expressed by someone with a Jewish name it is somehow more balanced and therefore closer to the truth. Plus the assortment of non-Jewish anti-Semites and anti-Zionists out there just love to lap up the words of these convenient idiots.

Ken Livingston: Did not Richard the 3rd , draw and quarter alive the Scot William Wallace and 24 of his followers. Was not Wallace head placed on pole at the tower of London while his body placed on 4 poles in Scotland. Did not English terrorize the Scotish country side by taking married Scot women as there due with swords to husbands hearts: burn there house, food, and kill there children...aaah Ken your National Socalist Workers party you work with still have that oder of the morally impaired.

Sam in 282:Why do they keep having offspring when there is no prospect of caring for them ? Well the $$$s come from the UN and the EU. The greatest welfare case in history. Sam, I am 100% for birth control for many reasons, but I think this is a bit, as we say in Holland, bend-cutting. It sounds not so sympathetic. I do not believe they get children because on forehand they think they will get paid anyway. On the contrary.

Ken Livingstone is for headshooting-out of question, I usually don`t like people like him. He might say things which are true..but no, there are other people, who are honest AND non-violent. It should be somewhere on www.propagandamatrix.com and on my website anyway. www.geocities.com/kayforpeace/kayforpage.html

Arik can sputter and spit all he wants, but Ken is one politician who isn't in Israel's pocket and will say exactly what he thinks. Incidentally exactly what a lot of people think -- even a lot of politicians who daren't say what they think, especially in the US. Right on, Ken

Let's see, Intel invested more than a billion dollars to build it's FAB 18 plant in Kiryat Gat. They plan on building another $4B plan there in the near future. Motorola has it's largest development center outside the US in Israel and earned $1.2B of the overall $27B in 2003 revenues. Teva just bought IVX and is now the #1 in the industry, Verint, Amdocs, ECI ? to name a few, companies with substantial growth over the past year.

Rudy was wrong in 2002 and you are wrong now. The Saudi prince didn't try to make any connection between 9/11 and Israel's illegal occupation and brutalization of the Palestinians. He merely suggested it would be a good idea to look at that situation. Of course Israel and its lackey, Rudy, took umbrage. Ken has it exactly right.

This just proves that the Jews are once again a scapegoat for any thing wrong that happens in the world, nothing has changed. -- It proves no such thing. It just verifies that some really bad things are being done by some really bad jews.

You really summed up my feelings about this nasty bit of work. Well done.

Yair, ik kan je niet mijn persoonlijk email geven, want dan zien die andere gekken het. Ik heb geen zin in mails van je-weet-wel-wie. I came to Israel during a sabbatical from work, now I do all kind of things as a HR consultant in the medical field and also sometimes in the relocation business. I have been helping out in a childrens care center in A-tur, the neighbourhood next to your campus. Campus is on top of Scopus, A-tur is on top of Mt. of Olives.

Ronnie, You are more morally obtuse than I thought. Yaakov comes to this website every day to demonize Jews and traffic with our enemies during times of war, but you are mad at me (and not him) because I am impolite. Wow. All I can say is that people like Yaakov (enemies of Israel) deserve no respect and get no respect. Period. "You probably dont care as you see it as a war,but maybe you could say what your saying without using words like idiot,stupid and many other verbs. I dont talk to you like that,Yaakov doesnt so what need is there of you to talk like that if you`ve got the essence of what you are saying right?" You are wrong, Yaakov is incredibly rude and calls people fascist, etc. Again, I won't apologize for not being polite with those who demonize Israel daily and come to hurt Jews. Look at my accusations against Yaakov (all true) and tell me how you can dare defend him? If you do, you are as immoral as him. If you think I'm a worse person than Yaakov (who signed a divestment petition against Israel during a time of war) because I use coarse language, you are dumb. You saying you don't read what I write is an obvious lie, as you always write to me first and not vice versa. You obviously read PZ quite carefully, maybe I'll suceed in knocking some sense or morals into your thick head...

I had already written you again, but now I see this posting. Well, also for non-religious people Jerusalem can be fun. I have Jews, Christians,Palestinians and atheists as friends....I come originally from Amsterdam, was born and raised there, but did my high school in Haarlem. After that I studied law in Leiden and San Francisco. I started as an attorney but I had heart surgery because of mitral valve prolaps and life after that has never been the same anymore. The profession of attorney became too fast for me. Boredom???? Kinda vague.... Well, it think I will call it a night soon. Tulip

Khalil is a real nice guy, hey Tulip? Intelligent and polite. Bet he treats his women with the utmost respect and dignity - especially regarding their opinions. Keep smiling.

tulip , keeping you all on track must be hard but it is necessary!

Guilt does not come into it: I do not feel guilty AT ALL. I'm not responsible for those acts. I would be responsible if I didn't do anything to make things better at present... I WANT A SOLUTION FOR THOSE PEOPLE, that's all. No guilt implied, Yair

Dank je voor je aardige woorden! Ik heb het nu nodig, want ik ben ontzettend beledigd/geschokt door bericht 274 (bericht 289 legt uit waarom; bericht 270/271 als je de achtergrond wilt weten van waarom het me zo raakt). I'm going to teach International Relations at Hebrew U, but my background is in economics. I did a PhD in European integration. Will be living at Mount Scopus campus next year. Cool, ey? After that, don't know. I'm planning on establishing myself in Israel long-term, but we'll have to see how things work out. What do you do again? I know you've worked as a lawyer and in an orphanage, but what do you do now? A hug, Yair

you are not responsible for what happened in 1948 and neither am i. what is this collective guilt that you must feel embarrassed about this? i don't hold anything against any european or american for the holocaust under the age of 80. do you? equally i don't feel guilty about palestinians rotting in those refugee camps for almost 60years.the closest i feel to that situation is stupidity for allowing it to go on. yair,you seem to overlook the sins of your neighbors why not do the same for your own people?

the question was a simple one ! it needed a simple answer. you do not need excuses as an answer!

have faith avram, i know you do.... good always defeats evil in the long run.... the people of israel will always outlive their tormentors we are the world's health barometer....the better it is for the Jews the better is the state of the world and vice versa..... our enemies represent darkness and all that is low and mean in the human spirit.....but no matter how dark,,,,a little light in the darkness makes a big difference..... The more they shout and scream the more I know that we represent beauty.

Listen Paul, I know you have your heart in the right place, but are some of your questions, comments not a bit off track? You sound so bitter? Please keep believing in the good side of people.

PZ--- I am so glad Yaakov is here every day to monitor how you chew the truth and fabricate it along the way. But we all need to have a Live and Let Live Policy because it saves us all from the tyranny of one another. Dutch

"just because the neighbors know you are jewish and don`t attack you doesn`t mean diddly squat" I think my experiences with Arabs have been a bit more profound than that. If that did not come across in messages #270 and #271, there really is no hope. I'm getting desperate on this forum: why can't people LISTEN?

I really hope you take this in the way it was intended but the style of your writing could be different.That is what I personally find aggravating and why I rush to defend Yaakov against you.You speak with arrogance and talk horribly to people. This style really bothers me more than anything. You probably dont care as you see it as a war,but maybe you could say what your saying without using words like idiot,stupid and many other verbs. I dont talk to you like that,Yaakov doesnt so what need is there of you to talk like that if you've got the essence of what you are saying right? It just inflames and doesnt help the debate or discussion. I quite frankly dont look at the essence Yaakovs comments compared to yours if you want to know the truth,for the amount of verbal abuse you send. If you dont care,its ok,I dont care either. I can take it but dont really read too much after that of what you write,because I know from whence it comes.

livingstone is a power crazy unprincipled egomaniac regardless of whether you agree or disagree with his views. he is also a lot less intelligent than he obviously thinks he is. but he is not alone...too many people of v low intelligence hold positions of authority. no good can come from livingstone, prob is he knows how to get headlines and publicity and his challengers are too boring to get voters....sad state of affairs

and for you gentiles on this board please read 286 and you might see why jewish people like to "stick together".

"I think denying the ethnic cleansing that happened in 1948 is historically very weak: take any decent (objective) history book. Morally, it`s even worse: it`s equal to Serbian denial of Sebrenica, Hutu denial of the Tutsi genocide, and David Irving`s denial of the holocaust. Please don`t lower yourself to that level. It embarrasses me as a Jew." You are wrong on all counts. The Palestinians rejected the U.N. partition plan (Israel accepted) and waged a war of attempted genocide (along with 5 Arab armies) against a people who had survived the Holocaust and had been ethnically cleansed from Arab lands. They were the aggressors, obviously. Many times, countries or actors lose territory in aggressive wars. This certainly isn't "ethnic cleansing" (many Germans were relocated at the end of WWII, many Pakistanis and Indians were relocated, etc). Secondly, the Palestinians were encouraged to flee by their leaders in the majority of cases. Lastly, if you want to be a proud Jew, stop uncritically accepting the narrative of those who wish to destroy Israel. There are enough anti-Semites in the world who question Israel's every move, we don't need Jews who are weak on the truth.

Paul, this is ridiculous: I'm a TUNISIAN Jew. I know the Arabic world inside out. I've both suffered attacks and enjoyed great friendships. How on earth do you know how long I've been living in Barcelona for? Don't you think it's incredibly arrogant to make assumptions like that about somebody's life. By the way, I'm moving to Jerusalem in November. My life story, at least in terms of contact with Arabs, can be found in message #270 and #271. I hope you read it and get off your high horse. You know nothing about the respondents on this forum and can't make suppositions about their lives. That's totally out of line and incredibly disrespectful. Imagine if somebody implied that you were lying about having lost family members in the holocaust. It's an insult to the traumas I and my family have suffered.

What you are all saying ignores the issue which is one of two warring nations,but also between prehensile penises and mountainous mammary glands. Let's say it how it is and also take into account the Guinean occupation of Sierra Leone and the Chinese occupatin of Kashmir, both are occupations. But a prostitute will never be considered a legitimate occupation, unless we change the way our society thinks.

Alberto, Obviously you've understood little of the contents of my messages. I believe in the existence of Israel, and I have no problem with making Aliyah whatsoever. I love Israel, and may it prosper eternally. However, I don't want my luxury of finally having a state (as a Jew), to cause misery to another people. Therefore I'm profoundly convinced of the need for a Palestinian state. I'm embarrassed by Israel's policies, even more so as a proud Jew. I want something better for Israel: I hope you understand this is out of love for the country, not out of hatred. Regarding Jerusalem, I hope the city will once be a capital to two different nations. Again, I don't see how my Aliyah has any influence on that. Clearly I'm going to be living in the West. The "flattering label of self-hating Jew" was OBVIOUSLY an ironic statement. Do I have to make EVERYTHING explicit? I think denying the ethnic cleansing that happened in 1948 is historically very weak: take any decent (objective) history book. Morally, it's even worse: it's equal to Serbian denial of Sebrenica, Hutu denial of the Tutsi genocide, and David Irving's denial of the holocaust. Please don't lower yourself to that level. It embarrasses me as a Jew.

was in barcelona in november and loved it. look,i don't want you to be paranoid but just because the neighbors know you are jewish and don't attack you doesn't mean diddly squat.excuse the americanism. as an aside last month my good friend {church going christian)speaking about a mutual friend said "I know you won't like this but she is a cheap jew".this person only has a masters degree though.

What do you hope you will be able to do in Israel, Yair? What do you teach? You seem to have a very balanced look at the things. That's good Yair, zo zal je leven in Israel een stuk gemakkelijker zijn. Groetjes, Tulip

Maybe not in Dubai, but in many other Islamic countries they are not fond of educated women, Proud Zionist.

The only problem with your post is that Hamas deliberately targets children and women...whereas the IDF is very proficient in eliminating mass murderers.

From Moder: "at the current rate of expansion the palestinans would probably be wiped out by 2050 !!" Not so fast Moder from London...at the current birth rate of the Palestinians (400 births a day in the West Bank alone) there will be no walking space for them by 2040. Why do they keep having offspring when there is no prospect of caring for them ? Well the $$$s come from the UN and the EU. The greatest welfare case in history.

Mr. Harris has it right in response 278... That a suicide bomber or other agent takes the lives of a random set of an "enemy" population is a great transgression. A backlash can be expected, sympathy for their cause lessened or dispelled, a cause to be villified.

I would love to see a point-by-point rebutttal of post 245, but I'm sure that as usual you have chosen to run away from my exposure of your self-hating biases... I will always be here to prevent your daily slander and libel of Israel.

Mr. Ahmad Abouali of Nablus: Before you become too critical of Likud (vs Hamas) you should realize that Likud does not endorse the wholesale slaughter of women and children the way Hamas does. If I'm not mistaken that is the definition of genocide.

dear anon, you should check some of your facts the usa have never given or approved of israel having nuclear weapons. the usa has used israel as its major fortress in the mid east since 1948. the choice of destroying oneself is always with the suicide bomber no one else, and if you think? what does it actually acheive ? nothing but counter destruction of much greater velocity morons like livingstone in encouraging these things never think of the real cost to the bomber and his people!

Ad- "They don't have tanks, guns, what do you expect them to use?" How about their brains, politics, public opinion, or if they must kill how about aiming at legitimate combatants like soldiers instead of students on busses and shoppers in malls? If they aimed at a battalion and bystanders got killed it would be one thing, but they AIM for women and children. That's what's dispicable.It'ds not collateral damage, it is intended murder of innocents.

And the Palestinians have decided that their strategy is to target civilians. Whether by suicide bomb, gun, quassam rocket, et al, the issue is not that they are fighting a war (they are) but that they have eliminated any dividing line between combatant and civilian and actually have decided on a strategy of civilian attacks. The other issue is that they continue to choose war. The option that remains ignored is one of non-violence.

why go after civilians?why committ suicide? arabs love to proclaim about their HONOR. where is the honor in terrorism?

ok yair so what is your point? its very comfortable in barcelona isnt it ! what is YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF ANYTHING !!!

marlene, who is the war criminal you are referring to? to be a war criminal you have to be convicted after a trial , just like any other type of criminal!!! in fact sharon wa stwice cleared by hearings !

if i had it my way there would be a one state solution.right bank,left,gaza,sinai,golan. equal rights to everyone,right of return to everyone.all would swear allegiance to israel.the right of return for jews world wide would be eternal.could never be changed.ever. could this work?after generations of jew hatred brainwashing?I think they have made sure it wouldn't.

P.S. By the way, I now live in the `old city` of Barcelona, the 2nd poorest district in town. Most of the inhabitants are newly arrived immigrants (roughly 40% are muslims, mainly Moroccans and Pakistanis). They all know I`m Jewish and I`ve not had any problems. For one year I lived in a flat with an Algerian guy who had great sympathies for Bin Laden. At one staged I suspected him to have links with Al Qaeda, but with hindsight I think that that was a somewhat paranoid assumption. We got on surprisingly well, and I managed to get quite a few points across, as did he to me. He actually even mediated once between me and my other housemate, a 22-year old drugdealer (himself addicted to various types of drugs), now in prison, who had put a knife on my throat. Unfortunately, I had no money to move. It was for obvious reasons the cheapest accomodation I could find. I was doing my PhD, and working as a university teacher, but unfortunately without a PhD, university teachers in Spain make the minimum wage. I now have a PhD, but as it takes the university 2 years to produce the physical diploma, I still earn the same salary. Don`t worry, I`ve finally managed to find another flat that costs about the same, in the same (criminal and dangerous) ghetto but with much nicer people.

I'm very sorry to hear that... I truly am. My experiences have been slightly different. Let's say that I've had a lot of contact with Arabic people, and a couple of very nasty experiences, but lots of very positive experiences as well. I'll just summarise: First of all, I`m a Tunisian Jew (with ancestors from other Arabic countries as well). That way, obviously I was partially formed by Arabic culture. Although peaceful coexistence was the norm (and the behaviour of the vast majority of my family's neighbours and friends), several of my family members have been both raped and murdered for being Jews in the Arabic world. I spent quite some time in Egypt and Jordan as well (the latter of which has a Palestinian demographic majority), without btw ever hiding my ethnic identity. I was then 18 and 19 years of age respectively, and never had any problems. I also lived in Morocco for 6 months, in a purely muslim society, with only one other non-muslim within a perimeter of 50 kilometers (that I knew of). This was more recently, in my twenties, when Jihad was already a big theme. Oh and one important point: the time I spent in Morocco was not as either a student or an academic. I was doing unpaid building work with totally unschooled local Moroccan boys (voluntary project). It was certainly not a soft and sweet experience, but I can`t describe it as particularly extremist... Most of the people of my city were more interested in making a living than in any worldwide Islamic doctrine. Having said that, I did have a few horrible anti-semitic experiences (mainly in Morocco), including being threatened to death twice. However, this was perpetrated by a small group of people (well, actually they were 2), and my muslim co-workers immediately stood up for me, protected me, and the aggressors were duly punished within their own community structure. After the second time (the most serious incident), nothing similar ever happened again. Intra-community punishment worked very well. I`m telling you from my own direct experience that, yes, Islam has some nasty aspects to it, and I suffered them directly, both as an adult and within my family. However, what I saw was that the majority of muslims are very decent people, without any extremist aspirations. I only see frustration in their eyes regarding certain aspects of the West, but nothing that can`t be cured with a bit of `reasonableness`. The latter type of attitude would totally undercut the extremists` possibilities to mobilise more moderate people. This is my own direct experience, and I come from the muslim world, and me myself and my family have suffered from various attacks in the name of islam. I think most people are quite reasonable everywhere, but unfortunately the extremists among us force moderate people to take radical stances besides them. I sincerely hope you'll have better experiences in the future, Yair

you have never said ONE GOOD thing about Israel on these discussion boards. As Proud Zionist pointed out, you come here to bash Israel and her Jewish population and make it seem as if we're 100% to blame for the situation. I've YET TO SEE YOU condemn any Palestinian activities against us. But honestly, I could care less. You write really well (like Khalid) but the Israelis who live here, who believe that we will be ok and who understand what the word "Achva" ve "ahavat achim" means will survive this, like we've survived every onslaught from the Arab world and any other sector of this globe that has decided that wee lil Israel has pissed 'em off. I only wish you health and happiness. You deserve that because the path you have chosen to bash your supposed 'brothers' is pretty sad ...

Oh and Khalil, I think I am more aware of the situation, standing with my feet in the sh...every weekend than you in your comfortable Dubai. End of discussion.

Khalil, you are sharp, but I am not impressed.

Tulip, congr, you discover that my prophet is Prof Robert Pape,what about your prophet Mr. Danial Pipsicola!

As a matter of interest,I would like to ask you,if I may kindly: 1) If you are Jewish as you claim to be,do you honestly believe in what you say:" Jewish settlement leading to "ethnic cleansing" ? 2)If you are the"Yair" who is moving to "Jerusalem" in November,is it "Jerusalem/Palestine,you are hoping to be one day ? or is it on Aliyah to Jerusalem,in Israel.in the Land of Israel? 3)If it is indeed in Israel,would you not agree that your own Aliyah would be adding even more so to "decades of occupation" which you yourself claimed to be the case? 4)" the flattering label of self hating Jew"!,is it not politically correct to say"the insulting label of self-hating Jew ? I am only asking.

...If they are not busying themselves with pro-palestinian mumbo-jumbo (mumbo-jumbo because they NEVER EVER talk about the palestinians half as much as about why Israel has no right to exist as a Jewish state, mumbo-jumbo because the ONLY arabs whose rights they care about are the ones in Judea and Samaria), they are pushing anti-EU propaganda, or discussing whether the Serbian murdering of Bonisak muslims really took place (why exactly are they siding with islamofashists in the ME and with muslim killers in the Balcans?). Redneck Ken is simply a symptom of a post-Berlin-wall ill that for some strange reason seem to have contaminated the democratic and anticommunist left as well. And Sharon is the hero of the Israeli left....the world is really weird at the moment.....

Sharon is about to evict Jews from the Gaza, the whole wide world is on our case and you don't want to credit the Palestinians with having a hand in it?

DeeDee-- It's too bad you seem to resent London's tolerance. I say thank God for British tolerence and may they go on sipping tea and not creating more terror like the Israelis and Americans are doing now around the world. This may or may not come back to haunt Ken Livingstone. Still, should that be a reason for him to withold his opinion?? I think not. Men and women of courage are not frightened by the fear of the unknown. Otherwise, they will become crippled and will be unable to serve anyone--let alone themselves. So best he speaks his mind... Dutch

Martin Luther King is a hero for both blacks and whites in this country. Blacks were treated as second class citizens in the United States for a long time. Lynchings were common and there are plenty of pictures to prove it. Martin Luther King took the high road and achieved rights for blacks through peaceful means. He encouraged equal rights for all but not at the expense of people's lives. He called for calm and reasoning when whites retaliated against these peaceful marchers. What a great man he was and it's sad that he never got to see his goal realized. Terrorism will never get the positive attention from people, but peaceful actions will.

No siding with keeping gaza sadly isnt what the state of Israel wants although i pray that somehow it doesnt happen. I do not like the excuse of arabs lvig in poverty so they blow themselves up. Its a garbage excuse for MANY reasons of which here are a few: 1)the arabs in london werent poor, nor were the ones in the US who killed so many people...so arabs blowing themlseves up out of poverty doesnt apply to those OR these. 2)The arabs are actually mcuh more free AND wealkthy then they were under Jordan and they NEVER blew upjordan, only israel....why is that?!?!?!? (that is a question NO arab has answred) 3)NO other poeple EVER blew themselves up and took as many innocent people witht hem ebcause they were poor!! NEVER!! Not somolians, not africans under an apartheid, not poor pople in america....none of them. Only arabs...they have nobody to blame but themselves!!

"Tulip, beter educate your self rather than do love story and hunting lovers." Tulip, good thing you don't live in Khalil's country, he'd probably try to cut your hand off so you couldn't type anymore!

Yeah, Jerusalem is very beautiful, but it scares me a bit. I'm totally a-religious, actually quite the opposite in terms of lifestyle... ;) The conflict is also so noticeable in Jerusalem, I don't know if I can deal with so much aggression. Anyway, I've been offered a job at the Hebrew University (that's why I'm going to Jerusalem). Gonna be teaching kids of my own age... (well, nearly). It's hilarious. Especially with my baby-face (terrible: makes me look even 5 years younger!). I'm now 26, and just got my PhD done. Uuuuuuuuuf. 426 pages about one topic: boredom!!! I got my Israeli citizenship at 22, which means that I only have to do 3 months, so that's not a major issue. Waar kom je oorspronkelijk vandaan in Nederland? Ik ken veel Joodse mensen uit Amsterdam, vooral van de LJG... Speak to you soon, Yair

they should open casinos like our indians and laugh all the way to the bank!!!!!!!!!!

Whats your point Roy? Is it a pun , a riddle or a game of semantics?

The simple difference, is that the large majority of palestinians killed were TERRORISTS WHO DESERVED TO DIE BECUASE THEY WERR TARGETTING INNOCENT PEOPLE!!! The targets of hamas were children!!! If you dont see the difference, you are just as bad as hamas.

Do you know FIFO, first in first out Michioooo? Tulip, beter educate your self rather than do love story and hunting lovers.

I asked a question, and you didn't answer(of course). Yes, the suicide bombers have targetted civilians, and I DO believe that it is wrong. My point however is that they have very limited options in how they fight back. Without tanks and jets, all they have to fight back with is their lives.

so you got involved in arab life..what does that mean?you had an arab friend or friends? well my dear yair so have I.my husband and I best friends with an arab couple for many years. when my baby was 4months old we (without asking)left him with the arabs mother.upon return she told us proudly she didnt think a jewish baby would be cute and she'd be able to care for one.I let it pass.of course we didn't discuss politics.EVER.then I heard gross antisemitism from the mouths of their children.really bad stuff.not political. then my mother who they knew for many years died.they did not attend the jewish funeral.I should understand.then my father.more understanding.of course they went to my husbands fathers (not jewish) funeral. what should I think yair? another (iranian this time)...I thought a friend ,told me jews only care about money. i could go on but i think you get the point. btw none of these people were even slightly religious.

I'm sticking by statement. I find it impressive when a self appointed enlightened person is knocked down a few pegs.

you might want to re-phrase your question,,,,, why on earth did Arafat unleash intifadah #2 with no planes and tanks? (negotiation might have been nice) Palestinians dont get it both ways.....first they launch int #2, then they cry when it did not work for them---------and the best part is, people like you eat it all up-- hook, line and sinker !

"jews too lived in israel through the ages btw." I know. I never denied that fact. Actually, it's one of the basic arguments I use when defending Israel to Arabs, in the hope that they will understand that the link Judaism-Israel has always been a continuous one (at least from our perspective). Some accept the concept, others don't. you wrote: "sorry but "your land" can be land conquered,land purchased,land won" Don't deny that either... I would personally feel a strong moral duty towards those that were there before though. Giving them their own state, if they so desire, would be the minimum... Finally were starting to agree on a few things. That's always nice. Yair PS. Even if Jews have had a continuous presence in Palestine, this was so in very small numbers from the 2nd century AD to the late 1800s. That means that I think I can correctly qualify the Palestinians, as "those that were there before". Even if many are descendants of immigrants as well, they have a much higher percentage of direct ancestors from Palestine than we do. By the way, I'm in no way trying to deny Israel's right to exist. I'm just trying to balance the discussion a bit.

if you knew some history about the conflict, you would not have posted such garbage. do some homework ! if your too lazy: WWW.SHOEBAT.COM

Michelle, I don't know if I would call my obliteration of Sarah from Nowhere "impressive." Like all Israel haters, her hatred forces her to take ridiculous positions and therefore "debating" her is like taking candy from a baby:) Exposing Yaakov self-hater Sullivan is even easier, and his anger at being exposed makes it worth it.

I suggest you are quite young and have never personally experienced anti semitism. I may appear nationalistic but I most certainly do have sympathy for the displaced palestinians. But their obscene methods,death cult,rhetoric,teachings,acts have hardened my heart and I simply do not trust them. furthermore,the other arab states are beneath contempt for their treatment of their "brothers"and useage of them for their own agendas. the simple fact is that jews have nowhere else to go if need be.and for europe that need seems to be fast approaching.

"Really, PZ, Ronnie does not owe you an apology." Mind your business. When it is time for me to address you, you will see the words "self-hater" or "anti-Semite." Until then, MYOB. Sadly, you have taken advantage of Ronnie's good heart and naivety, he doesn't realize that you hate Israel and the Jews who live in it and that you spend hours criticizing Israel at a time when she desperately needs the world's support. "He simply realisies that in your worldview, any criticism of Israel or her abuse of power, is not synonymous with anti-Semitism, self hatred, or 'tearing Israel down'." Not true. As an actual citizen here, I criticize Israel on a daily basis. First, and you certainly couldn't understand this as a yored who failed here, there is a difference between criticizing Israel within Israel in Hebrew (as I often do) and criticizing Israel internationally. One helps Israel, one is often used by Israel's enemies during a time of terror and war. I've had many interesting debates with posters like Danite or others like Mark today, without calling them self-haters or anti-Semites. Because they aren't. You are though, so I call a spade a spade. Why do you spend so much time debating this point unless you realize that I (and the many others who say it) have a strong point? "For you, simply put, Israel can do no wrong. This is nonsense." Wrong. Israel can do wrong, but overall she is just and has a just case. "As for my constantly making excuses for the palestinians, this is nonsense which cannot be substantiated." -You claim that you cannot support Israel because of her "occupation," yet you do support the Palestinians despite the Palestinians four year terror war. -In an earlier post, you called terrorists "rejectionists." This is the language of a terror apologist or enemy. Which are you? ANSWER THIS, PLEASE (you keep ignoring this point) -You constantly judge Israel on a moral basis, yet when you were asked why the Ps rejected the '48 partition plan, you blithely replied "they had nothing to lose." Oh, well in that case, I guess it's ok that Israel lost 1 percent of its population in that war of attempted genocide!!! -You claim Israel "milks" the Holocaust. Again, this is the language of anti-Semites. -You believe Arafat's account of Camp David as opposed to Barak's or Clinton's or Ross' or Prince Bandar's. Why? Because you ALWAYS side against Israel. Most damningly: you signed a petition to divest ONLY from Israel during the time when the Palestinians were launching a brutal war and we desperately needed support. Not against the Sudan and their genocide, not against North Korea. This was an attempt to demonize and isolate Israel alone among the nations. Tell me, why didn't this great divestment pass? Why did almost all prominent figures renege in the end? If you are so proud of it, how do you feel about the head of Harvard exposing it as anti-Semitism? You also supported the AUT academic boycott (even though it would have mostly affected leftwing Israel profs), because you want Israel to be an isolated pariah. You hate us, becuase you hate yourself. Sad, but true. You are a sad, bitter, hateful old man who will never beat us. You weren't even tough enough to make it here, how could you ever beat us? All the self-hatred in the world won't help you, and you desperately need help. Why did you convert if you despise Jews and Zionism (or did that come after conversion?).

I certainly do not disagree with that assessment, Jacob. I am not justifying nor am I excusing this phenomenon. And by referring to context, I do not intend to do so. Yet context is critical. By that I mean that these suicide bombers are coming out of a certain context. You will generally find these disgruntled youth alienated from their parent cultures, very tempted by Western culture and yet feeling intimidated by it and cut off from access to its channels of social mobility. Yet this applies to many youth but not all of them make these horrendous decisions to turn themselves into human bombs. They feel utterly misplaced by the wrenching effects of globalisation and angry that they cannot capture the glories of an Islamic past. Their actions have far more to do with revenge than with frustration. Islam must confront this as I have stated before. It must deal with this "context", more so than the West. Policy does play a role here. This is not to say that if policy were to change 360 degrees all terror would stop. If this pool of alienated, unmoored youth desires change of foreign policy or a more concerted effort to achieve integration, then they must do so by utilising the political process. Shut down the tube rather than blowing it up, leading an antiwar movement, doing their utmost to change foreign policy. To employ methods that they accuse the US and British government of employing against Muslim peoples is disingenuous and betrays their intentions.

Livingstone: "The Likud and Hamas members are two sides of the same coin. ... Each side emphasizes the extremism of the other in order to attract sympathy" Sharon: "Extremists are attempting to take over the Likud from within" (Source: Haaretz / Israel Radio, 25-Jul-05)

Where do you suppose the rabid militants in Palestine are getting their rockets....Santa Claus? The tooth fairy? The Easter Bunny? Hard to feel sorry for a people who target women and children Ad.

You slamed the door on Sarah and rightfully so!

Murillo, what's your ethnic background ? Also, what's all this stupid infatuation with the Ashkenazi Jews ?

Khalil, is Pape your new prophet? I see his name all over the place.

sorry but "your land"can be land conquered,land purchased,land won.jews too lived in israel through the ages btw. i the grandchild of european immigrants live on former indian land conquered by spain won (don't even know)by mexico and conquered by usa that I bought.

Comparing Hamas the organization of fanatics, racists & murderers to Mother Teresa ? Ahmad, have you smoked too much hashish ? Regardless of your mean rants, it is Hamas that is on a terrorist group list, listed as such by both European Union and USA.

One quote from the mayor stuck me "Given that the Palestinians don't have jet planes, don't have tanks, they only have their bodies to use as weapons,". That is a good point. The US did not give the palestinians billions of dollars in free jets, tanks, and even -nuclear weapons-. What should they fight back with? What do the rabid zionists in this forum think about that? You can't expect any people to just give up and become repressed third class citizens at best, or at worst, be completely pushed out of their homes.

If you can't or won't answer my question, then I will ask someone else.

Sarah from Nowhere, "Israel is also under the lens and thus far Sharon is not fairing any better than Hamas." What a load of horse puckey. The world sees that Sharon is making a major move for peace and is treating him accordingly, while Hamas is vilified. Sharon is going to France to meet with Chirac (and Chirac has made it known in advance that he wants a friendly visit), while the world rightfully shuns Hamas (even Abu Mazen threatens them and was fighting with them in the streets). "BTW, displaying personal information of others (cyber outing) whether true or not have no place here. They have nothing to do with the discussion and only show the perveyor of such games for what they are--devoid of any real moral or ethical stance. In other words they are children playing the school yard bully. Real solutions will have to come from the adults, these bullying children are not capable." You aren't the moderator, but maybe you dream of being the moderator. Johanes Franzen moderates a discussion group that debated the existence of the Holocaust. That is pertinent info., it shows EXACTLY where he is coming from (just as finding out that a poster on a discussion about race relations was in the Klu Klux Klan would be relevant). Yaakov Sullivan signed a petition solely demonizing Israel and urging a financial strangulation of this country. Again, pertinent. If you don't like the heat, stay out of the kitchen, Nowhere.

Really, PZ, Ronnie does not owe you an apology. He simply realisies that in your worldview, any criticism of Israel or her abuse of power, is not synonymous with anti-Semitism, self hatred, or "tearing Israel down". For you, simply put, Israel can do no wrong. This is nonsense. As for my constantly making excuses for the palestinians, this is nonsense which cannot be substantiated. Again, I state that yes I did sign the divestment petition which referred to companies selling or manufacturing arms used in Israel's occupation. So I suggest you cool your tirades. They are ineffectual. Further, if you expect people to believe you when you allege that you support a two state solution, then I would advise you to do something to help bring about an end to Israel's expansionism and comittment to ongoing development in the West Bank after assuring the Bush administration that they would refrain from doing so.

First the good news. 1.Since the year 1215 the position of Lord Mayor has been an elected position 2.Mayor Livingstone is the mayor only until September. 3.The term for Mayor is limited to 1 year The bad news 2.Like minded Londoners elected him.

"what you need is to know what a bomb exploding by you feels like; before being a philospher at large" Several of my family members were murdered and raped in the Arabic world for being Jewish. I was threatened to death with a knife on my throat. Will you allow me to have an opinion? Oh go on, please... I know it's not as good as a bomb, but I hope I'm entitled to think independently now. To all those that haven't had traumatic anti-semitic experiences yet, just slavishly follow your leaders! You're too naive to think for yourself...! Ugggh, disgusting...

re # 218 easy reading go to amconmag.com then come back rather opining new subject after that will give you answer. re # 219 are you prof. in math? go against him in your courts in USA and you may make $$$$$$$$ out from IT IF YOU CAN if not come see me !!!!

If Londoners elected Ken, they deserve what they got. They can go on priding themselves of being a special society where radical muslim preachers are allowed to churn out mouthfuls of vitriolic poison while cool Londoners go to sip tea and eat cucumber sandwiches. Lets see how long it will take the natives to acknowledge the existence of a fifth column that is growing from within, born, raised and educated in the UK. This is only the beginning, London will never be the same. I know that Ken's unwise remarks will come back to haunt him.

Yair, good for you that you do this alone. How old are you? I guess you will have to serve in the army? You know what they say, don't you? Tel Aviv is the place to enjoy, Haifa is the place to work and Jerusalem is the place to pray. For me, there is no city like Jerusalem. I like many parts of Israel, but I am always very glad to be home. Hoewel ik dan nog niet zo oud ben, een oplossing voor dit conflict maak ik niet meer mee. Tulip

tity , you fall into the same trap as doris , you start a fight with someone you dont know. get out and live and come back in twenty years and tell someone what you have learnt. what you need is to know what a bomb exploding by you feels like; before being a philospher at large

We all know Jews are being forced from there homes in Gaza, but I was just informed that any live stock they may have can't be taken with them. Is this true....does anyone know?

Way more innocent civilians have died on Sharon's orders then by anyone in Hamas. Talk about murderous.

Of course the double standard is fair. When many muslims (and I do not see any on this website saying anything to the contrary) believe that their religion is superior, why would they allow infidels practice another religion in their midst and become contaminated? And since their religion is superior, they of course should be allowed to practice freely in the West. Don't you understand, it is their mission to convert the infidel world to Islam? That is what Jihad is all about.

Paul Harris u have no clue... for your info im not an only child...i have an 1.5 year younger sister but im not here in this forum to discuss my family matters. We have a big family with loads of relatives with my first cousins in Greece and all my secong cousins in Boston US, London, UK and all over Israel. You keep rumbling and making awful jokes and funny...id say its you who talks out of no experience or knowledge! At least i have it fresh on my mind from my extensive MA research at uni.... but im not here to debate with you...a person who tries to find if im an only child or not. But ill consider you for a psychoanalysis...;)

You wrote: "Instead of pouring out all this vitriol in these forums, why don`t you come to the region and check out what is going on for yourself?" I believe she's going there in a couple of days...

You wrote: "Besides, i do not only side with Israel, i personally dont think we should leave gaza because all it will do is breed more and more terrorism and it will set a president to give up land to terrorists monsters while they shoot at us...and giving up land they never deserved or had a claim on mind you". This is not siding with Israel? Then what is? Please, Shimon, be a bit more realistic. Second, your conclusion that I side with the Palestinians is totally wrong. I side with no ethnicity. I look at every case individually and then try to make up my mind objectively, without being too much influenced by my background (at least I try). Third, after getting involved in Arab life, I found out that a lot of the things I was taught by the Jews and their media was rubbish as well. I certainly believe that the Israeli press is more neutral than its Palestinian equivalent, no conflict there. But listen to your own comments; then go and live with an Arabic family for a while (which I did, by the way); experience the lifestyle for at least a few months or so, and you will see that things aren't as black and white as you think they are. Takes an open mind though... Should give it a try!

http://www.amperspective.com/html/chicago_prof_.html Prof Pape stated the following "The leading instigator of suicide attacks is the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, a Marxist-Leninist group whose members are from Hindu families but who are adamantly opposed to religion. This group committed 76 of the 315 incidents, more than Hamas (54) or Islamic Jihad (27)." Last time I checked, 54+27 = 81. Not only does he exclude the Al-Aqsa brigades, but seems to only count completed suicide attacks, not inderdicted ones. But putting aside his lack of math skills, he attempts to whitewash the use of Islam and religion as part of the support network for terrorism. Religious leaders, as part of the wider community have provided these attacks with social legitimacy. Bombers are given the title of Shaheed, martyr. Divine rewards are recounted, sermons are given in their honor. More earthly rewards in the form of cash and pedestal status are

Being that I haven't read that book and don't even own it, perhaps you could answer my question anyway. Why are Western countries allowing Middle Eastern Muslims to immigrate to our countries, when we are not allowed to immigrate to yours. I'd appreciate an answer and I'm not looking for a fight either. Just an honest answer.

sorry.. the muslims DEMAND to have freedom in US, Canada, France, Englad..Demand to wear their head scarves, yet it is ok for all muslim countries to make Catholicism, protestantism, judiasm ILLEGAL. WE must let them pray to Allah, but we go to jail in their countries. And you are asking IS IT FAIR? They do not recognize fair? They do not understand it.

Michelle, you waste your breadth here. Go see the web site they recommend. He can't have an open mind. Ofcourse the Muslims DEMAND

Please everyone, read that site ifamericaknew.com..then you will understand why Dutch, Franzen et al say the things they do. Did you know, there was no fighting for 2000 years in Palestine!!! Only the Zionists who decided to show up cause this peacful..ARE YOU PEPOLE REALLY THIS STUPID? No Roman wars, no Islamic wars, no HISTORY at all?? The trash on this site is so horrid it is comical. No Holocoust- well we know Abbas says that too. We must feel sorry, this is what our canadian friend listens to also. I thought you people went to better schools and at least took basic world history. Jerusalem had not been at peace for 2000 years. Hence the DESTRUCTIONS of the temple???!!! You can't reason with people who are so full of misinformation. These debates are to superficial because their entire premise is based on bull...t.

PZ: I realize you aren`t smart, but wake up and join your brothers, Ronnie. I`m here everyday living this and having to deal with it, while you snipe at me from the comfort of Canada. This is a game to you, it`s life to me. What gives you the right to criticize me? You owe me an apology for doing what you are too dumb to do: defending Israel from those who hate her.... PZ,I defend Israel consistently against what I see are bad things said about it. Against Ken Livingstone,Against the Terrorists,Against the Left Intellectuals like Martillo and also against the Right wing Jewish extremists. You allow them to say things against moderation,I dont. Our loyalties are different. Just like I say to the moderate muslims,seperate yourselves from the fundamentalist killers,I say to the moderate Jews,seperate yourself from the extreme elements.Its not the same but the concept is the same. Fundamentalist dreams ultimately kill. Whether by the hand itelf or the mind,they kill. With Israel and its control of the Status Quo,and the fact that the Palestinians shoot themselves in the foot often,the right wing only need to go to the extreme they go too,but I wonder for the future. Today Haaretz said that some want to kill themselves..thats not so far from the next step.

What a load of manure being spread around today. While you worry about lambasting Ken Livingstone and Yaacov or anyone else who has a differing opinion, you do not have to take self responsibility. Keep going, the world is watching you play a mini game of Sharon style one-up-manship. Your chance is now for peace and what happens? While Israel/Palestine burns, you keep playing the fiddle. Those who are of good heart need to step forward. Those who only want to twart and abuse need to be ignored. You have much to loose by playing this game. Two players that are important are Palestinians and Israelis. Ken Livingstone is merely a distraction. Do not allow distraction to stop the chance both peoples have to enjoy a little peace. The world grows tired of the conflict and if this fails, it will not be only Palestinians who lose. Israel is also under the lens and thus far Sharon is not fairing any better than Hamas. BTW, displaying personal information of others (cyber outing) whether true or not have no place here. They have nothing to do with the discussion and only show the perveyor of such games for what they are--devoid of any real moral or ethical stance. In other words they are children playing the school yard bully. Real solutions will have to come from the adults, these bullying children are not capable.

The problem isnt that you dont side with israel, its who you side with instead. When u beliveve the lies fed to you by the arabs and refuse to beleiev what the IDF says is REALLY happeneing, when you side with murderers whose only goal is to kill as many of YOUR people, women and children too, instead of siding with Jews who would do no such thing, THAT is the problem. Besides, i do not only side with Israel, i personally dont think we should leave gaza because all it will do is breed more and more terrorism and it will set a president to give up land to terrorists monsters while they shoot at us...and giving up land they never deserved or had a claim on mind you.

michelle, why wasting our time, your time and Ahmads time, please read my comment # 206 above and come back please with real comments.

dorris have you discovered some new kind of quntam pcyisics

Instead of pouring out all this vitriol in these forums, why don't you come to the region and check out what is going on for yourself? Maybe make up your own mind instead of relying on the biased media?

"The IDF have to stay strong against the protesters." Such comments are very easy from Canada. It isn`t your son or daughter being called "Nazi"... Its funny I thought we are all sitting by computers in the line of fire and not on the ground......or the 'street'. But surely I would see the ground AND the 'street' when I am there. Maybe,the police will have a hard time deciding what to do with me.I am a humanitarian and a pro-israeli.

You state that Westerner's and Western countries are targeted because we are in your land right? Now, why are Westerner's supposed to welcome Muslims into their lands? Muslims from the middle east move to the United States and get to freely worship whom they please....but if I were to ever come to Muslim land, I am not allowed to worship as I please. Double standards are ingrained in your thought process Ahmad.

jb, What about reading something new,correct, since and acad."Diying to Win" by Prof Robert Pape. Do some work rather using bankrupt Fareed Zak.

Thank you! You're totally right with what you imply. This forum scares the hell out of me! You can't criticise Israel on anything without getting an avalanche of nationalistic hawks on your back! It's so scary: you're either anti-semitic, or in my case, a self-hating Jew. Ridiculous! The worst thing is that they don't realise how blinded they are by nationalism. You can't criticise your own people/government/country without being a traitor. This totally uncritical attitude has caused the world some much damage, and even more so to the Jews. And now these people do exactly the same thing: just follow the country! Don't criticise, don't analyse, whatever your country does is correct! Horrible! I expected much more from educated people: what a disillusion! Nobody's responsible for the acts of their government, people or ancestors; only for your own... So why be afraid to criticise? I don't become less Jewish for criticising Israel, I feel I become more Jewish. We have a long history of debating and critical thought, currently unfortunately heavily undermined by these people. My love for Judaism is one of the two reasons I act (the other one is sympathy with the Palestinian plight): I don't want my culture to rot away in the claws of nationalism. It deserves better than that. A proud Jew.

"The IDF have to stay strong against the protesters." Such comments are very easy from Canada. It isn't your son or daughter being called "Nazi"...

I sent you a message on another forum, but I think it's been closed, so I resend it: Altijd gezellig om even met jou bij te kletsen... 37 is NIET oud. I insist: I know many very vivid 37 year olds, and you still have a looooooong way to go before being classified as a senior citizen. About making Aliyah: no, my father isn`t Jewish (I`m a mother-Jew!), so he`s not going anywhere. He`s living with his girlfriend now, and we (my sister and I) don`t get to see him much because of the new `familiar` situation. Maybe when things become more settled we`ll restore contact, who knows... So, nop, going to Jerusalem on my own. My sister is very supportive (although she`s not moving anywhere either), but will be with me mentally. It is a bit scary, such a move on one`s own, but I have a few friends over there, and it`s all quite an interesting adventure. Do you like living in Jerusalem? How has the experience been? A hug, Yair

The last time you decided to test me you ended up saying you believe Hamas needs to keep its weapons because Israel has the "status quo." Am I right or wrong? Yes you are right I said that and stand by it.You have made several points,and I will answer them with the peanut brain that you suggest later,meanwhile have to do some work,its difficult being so stupid in my position. I stand by the above because I told you time and time again the answer,not that you,the arrogant,would mention it,or even listen. Again: I said that Hamas had joined the political realm and that because they were the pick of many of the Palestinian people (for reasons of their being treated well by them) that they should keep their weapons,and that could make them the defacto army because the Palestinians didnt trust the PA and their corruption.In any case the weapons would give them the choice I said. I actually thought that choice would have been used or not used AFTER Sharon left Gaza but infact they used it before,so I suggested targeted killing as the appropriate answer. I also think that Hamas cannot be a negotiating parnter based on their decision to condone Jihads bombing of Netanya and also the rocket that killed the lady in Israel. I also feel that arabs have not been treated too well in Israel.Ive heard yes that they are treated better in israel than in other arab cointries and there are a lot of issues as how they relate to the Palestinians but when somebody says we should leave Gaza and then CARPET BOMB IT and you say nothing,Im pretty disgusted too with that. And you are sarcastic to Yaakov. Yaakov says that Jews milk the holocaust.Thats wrong for him to magnify that point when so many people have suffered,but its not a lie.Every charity magnifies and merchandises their product,not getting emotion for the sake of it but for donations.So there is some truth to what he says.I dont condone that though. As a reservist for Israel I dont castigate you,I just dont like your arrogance and selectivity when it comes to your centre right position that often plays itself as right wing. Regading Paul Harris and the Holocaust situation,I think that you backed the Sharon government against the Orange (probably back the government against anything) but you rarely talk out against Israel practices that are wrong.I do if I feel they are wrong,Yaakov does. I will say what I think is the truth and stand by it in the face of your blind loyalty. If that makes me dumb.Ok.

Ken "Muhammed" Livingstone is the real deal, as far as terrorist sympathising, aiding and abetting is concerned. He let over 1 million Muslims into his city and turned it into a terrorist hotbed almost overnight. He continues to support and encourage Palestinian terrorists, and even shows sympathy and understanding for Al-Qaeda. The United States should declare this terrorist sympathiser a persona non grata. Other states are sure to follow suit. I hope Brittons wake up and send him to be mayor of Gaza city, where he belongs. I'm sorry Sharon even wasted breath on this worm.

"At the current rate of expansion, the Palestinians would probably be wiped out by 2050." Now see, that's what I hear about the Europeans living in Europe. By 2050, Europe could be run by Muslims.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8683395/site/newsweek/ How to Stop the Contagion This is battle, not an academic seminar. We in the West have to discredit, delegitimize and dismantle barbaric ideas. By Fareed Zakaria Newsweek Aug. 1 issue - If you want to understand what motivates suicide bombers, watch the recent movie "Downfall." Based on eyewitness accounts, it chronicles the final days inside Hitler's bunker. In a particularly harrowing scene, Joseph Goebbels and his wife are given the opportunity to have their six young children flee to safety. But Magda Goebbels refuses and instead drugs the kids to sleep. Then she inserts a cyanide capsule into each child's mouth and presses the jaws until the capsule breaks. When explaining why she won't allow her kids to escape, Mrs. Goebbels explains, "I can't bear to think of them growing up in a world without national socialism." This is the power of ideology. Magda Goebbels had embraced a horrific world view that made her believe that murdering her children was a noble act. Suicide bombing cannot be explained by poverty and disadvantage. The London bombers were not the wretched of the earth. They came from working-class but comfortable backgrounds, living in one of the world's most prosperous countries. For all the talk of their being marginalized, none were living in hellish ghettos. Britain today does a decent job of assimilating its immigrants, certainly better than any other European country. If anyone had cause for rage, it was not the bombers but their parents. Muslim migrants from Pakistan (in three cases), they arrived in Britain in less multicultural times. They were dirt-poor and probably ostracized and persecuted. And yet they did not become murderers; they started fish-and-chips shops. Like all ideologies, radical Islam is a phenomenon of the educated class. From Muhammad Atta to Mohammed Sidique Khan, almost all suicide bombers have been men who read and write. In V. S. Naipaul's book "A Million Mutinies Now," the author interviews a young Hindu fanatic. The man explains his fascistic views, and then Naipaul asks the man's father, who happens to be sitting there, what he thinks. The old man explains that he works at a factory from morning till night and doesn't really have time for these kinds of ideas. Extremist ideology is a leisure-time pursuit. (go to Newsweek for the full article).

They tried to blow up the world trade center in 1993 during the years of the Madrid conference and early work of Oslo. This is also after the US saved Kuwait from Saddam's invasion. They bombed the Khobar Towers in 1996. This is while NATO troops are trying to stop Serbs from killing Muslims in the former Yugoslavia. They bombed two US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998 They bombed the USS Cole in 2000. Just what context do you see here. Ken Livingstone, just like all the other hate-mongers isn't looking for context, he's looking for a scapegoat.

I believe you are correct when you said that Livington has now given the radical element within his Muslim community the token to act in fulfilling the goals they have for England. When terrorists start to be hunted down like the dogs they are in England, Livingston should be on that list!

You write: "if you saw people coming into your land"...how about the British?the Ottomans?" That's so obviously analitically different, that I can't believe you actually raise it! Neither the Brits nor the Ottomans had the intention to displace the local population with their own: they were "colonial powers" that ruled the country from outside, but without upsetting the internal demographic situation. They were in no way a threat in the way that the Jews were. The difference is comparable to the difference between, say, Sierra Leone and the US. In Sierra Leone the British were never a threat: they just ruled the country and, by and large, left the population get on with their lives. In the US, British (and other) settlers made a clear effort to uproot the local population, take their land, and make it theirs. The fact that the Arabs living in historical Palestine did not oppose the Ottoman or the Brits as they did with the incoming Jewish population is so logical that I can't believe you can't see it. The term "your land" here is not a term of ownership. Ownership in those days depended on military power, not on any moral considerations. Saying that it wasn't morally their land because they didn't have the arms to confront their coloniser is a bit fascist. Maybe they didn't even want to: sometimes surprisingly a native population can prefer staying under foreign domination, because they prefer into to an indigenous dictatorship. However, recognising this right to CHOOSE, is implicitly recognising that therefore it is their land. "Your land", then, in my conceptual nomenclature refers to the land you cultivate, where you're born and raised.

Hey Ronnie, I was already awake on 13.15 as you can see. I never thought I would get history lesson again, but instead of grabbing deepdown my dusty encyclopedia, I am following dr. Martillo's class.

dear chen , the last time i looked i did not see on the likud manifesto that all arabs should be swept out of the middle eastand a jewish fundamental state declared ??? as i said before logic lessons should be taken frequently by both brothers . hamas and its aims are well known and need no introduction

More and more and more, not only London Mayor but also PROF. Robert Pape and today the Pope in Rome. So what and who is next? My be Bush,.. etc and the last one to understand is Sharon!!!

Israel is a sacred nation. No one on Earth has the right to criticize it. It is the most perfect democracy in the world, the most perfect state too. Whoever dares to criticize Israel is a racist, terrorist and a Nazi, he is a criminal against humanity and deserves to be sued at the ICJ. All what Israel is doing is good. It has nuclear weapons in order to defend itself against the world, it has tanks and aircrafts that kill Arab children, in order for it to protect Israeli children, and it threatens to destroy the Iranian nuclear infrastructure for the good of humanity (and poison life in all the region by doing so), but it's Israel. Worse than that : he who criticizes Israel is an anti-semit, and this is the worst crime that could be imagined in this world.

israel, especially under the likud and hamas have been doing the same things, using different methods. israel campaign of terror is state run, assisted by settler militias, hamas's is locally run, assisted by kids who are willing to blow themselves up. israel uses missles, state of the art military jets to shoot at crowded refugee camps, hamas uses willing humans to murder civilians, since they don't have f15's. red ken is saying the ugly, inconvenient truth, whcih the israelis don't want to hear, having lived in denial for 38 years.

now jews were/are part of a right wing conspiracy. I thought you said left wing before?

"if you saw people coming into your land"...how about the British?the Ottomans? "your land"?

While Livingstone was entirely on the wrong track, the wrongness of his track was in evaluation of the data, as opposed to the technique. Where he went wrong, was assuming that the best way to deal with the imbalance was to ?correct? it. It is in fact, quite correct as is. The reason the Moslems use terrorism, is that they do not have Fighter Jets and Tanks and Nuclear Missiles on par with our own. If they had these, they would use them instead. The Jihad that Mohammed calls his followers to, is a generic war intent on establishing Global Islamic Rule, more interested in obtaining dominance over the ?Non-Believers?, in some cases called ?Infidels?, as opposed to converting them. Prolonged Dhimmitude is there, on the shelf, for Christians who accept such slavery. That option is closed to the rest of Dar Al-Harb, for which eventual extermination is called for. They are not guided by a notion of soul saving as Christians are or Proof by Survival as we are. They are guided singly and intensely, by pride. Just like some other ideologies that have shared this goal of global domination. The places where people like Livingstone go wrong, are many. His desire to balance middle eastern powers, it is like giving a gun to a man who is threatening you with a knife, when you could just give him the bullets, one at a time, at supersonic speeds. It is a perhaps willful and deliberate ignorance of motivations, motivations described in great detail, in the central doctrines, of the oldest threat, that Europe has resisted for centuries.

thanks for the link. What you fail to realize that many of these links have skewed data. Many actually report collaborators that were killed by hamas, honour killings, etc. so i dont hold too much respect with this link. Furthermore, ALL these deaths on both sides are due to your great leader Arafat who launched int #2 since you like to post links; WWW.SHOEBAT.COM

It is high time that someone had the courage to speak out. Unfortunately anti-semitism still exists in this world (as do many other ignorant expressions of hatred based on fear of difference), but Ken Livingstone's statement is not representative of this and to keep using that term incorrectly is damaging. Many people who find anti-semitism abhorrant agree with the Mayor. Perhaps it is time to really examine how Palestinians have been treated and then ask who is the true victim of hate crimes?

HAARETZ NEWS: Israel Defense Forces GOC Southern Command Dan Harel leveled harsh criticism at protestors on Monday whom he said are waging psychological warfare against soldiers in the field. "Intensive psychological warfare is being waged in an attempt to break the soldiers," Harel told the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee. "Many people from all sectors of the population are taking part in this effort. There is a serious crossing of red lines when calling soldiers 'Judenrat' and 'Nazis.'" Harel said that soldiers were being brought to tears but nevertheless said the protestors "must have no doubts about the ability of the IDF to stand strong." The IDF have to stay strong against the protesters. We have heard from so many right wing extremists about not using the Holocaust as a relative subject when discussing anything else and now see that point as being gamesmanship rather than morality because here its being brought out to its fullest in the resettling of the Orange. And from what I understand there is not to be a concentration camp made by the government is there? I think its a development of sorts,nice houses even... They are tricky those right wingers,using whatever it takes and even threatening suicide. Yeah right.

a day in the life of dutch according to the haaretz forum... "Leon Rosgarten, great letter...thanks so much" "Franzen, keep on those zionists...thanks so much" "Tity, I really do not like that Harris fellow, too narrow minded, thank you"

Well Red Ken along with Galloway have British blood on their hands! He did it! He condoned! The British people put this scum into office, let them reap the results!

doris with you rooting fot the arabs how can they fail!!! have you got some drawings of the land thta is being appropiated all the time . i find thta no one contributing to these columns as an exponent of anti semitism , is able to do arithmetic. ISRAEL KEEPS STEALING LAND BUT ENDS UP WITH LESS ALL OF THE TIME. TELL ME HOW ITS DONE AND ILL APPLY THE FORMULA TO MY BANK ACCOUNT NOW IN 1922 THE JEWS HAD 100% AND NOW THEY ONLY HAVE 5% OF THAT LAND . DORIS CSDIGAN FINDS NEW LAWS OF MATHEMATICS THE MORE YOU GET THE LESS YOU HAVE INCREDIBLE

if american knew is a disgraceful website run by a holocaust denier.shame on you. how are jews supposed to even begin to talk to you?

It is a real shame that Brazilian Electricians do not have tanks and fighter jets with which to defend themselves from British Socialists.

"Cant rock the apple cart can we,PZ but smash Yaakov at any opportunity wont we?" Ronnie, you are endearingly dumb like a puppy. Your analysis never factors the fact that Israel is facing tremendous daily anti-Semitism. The U.N. has singled out Israel for ridiculous criticism (see the Durban conf, which turned into an Israel-bashing haven). Europe routinely holds us to a double standard (see the BBC). The Muslims use us Jews as an external enemy to distract from their own corruption. And yet you pillory me for defending Israel instead of joining those (like Yaakov) whose fondest wish is to dismantle her!!! Again, Yaakov supported a divestment against only one country in the entire world! This means he thought Israel is more of a pariah than North Korea, Saudi Arabia and the genociders of Sudan. I realize you aren't smart, but wake up and join your brothers, Ronnie. I'm here everyday living this and having to deal with it, while you snipe at me from the comfort of Canada. This is a game to you, it's life to me. What gives you the right to criticize me? You owe me an apology for doing what you are too dumb to do: defending Israel from those who hate her....

The Jews fought the Progrom Dictators with what they had,sometimes left and sometimes right and in America,land of the free, they fight through democracy and politik. You are free too,even here on Haaretz to speak your mind. Enjoy the comraderie,Joachim....you do like comraderie dont you Joachim????? JOACHIM?????? Hey are you watching Doctor Zhivago AGAIN??????????????

Ronnie, You are a good guy with a nice heart, but you aren't exactly the brightest bulb. I leave you alone, but you always decide to tangle with me and come across looking silly. The last time you decided to test me you ended up saying you believe Hamas needs to keep its weapons because Israel has the "status quo." Am I right or wrong? Now you are back with more nonsense. Let's see: "Hey,Proud,I notice in most of your posts there is a lot about Yaakov and Red Ken but little about Sharon,the person that the article is about." The article is actually about Sharon's condemnation of Red Ken's outrageous comments. Sharon is reacting to Red Ken, as am I. What is your point? Yaakov, as is his wont, sided with a known hater of Israel. I criticized him for it (as is my wont). What is your point? Why would you side with a person (Yaakov) who said that Jews "milk" the Holocaust? Who signed a petition singling out Israel as the Jew among the nations (a divestment petition) during the height of the terror war? A person who daily comes to demonize Jewish Israelis when we desperately need world support? Ronnie, your moral relativism blinds you from seeing that unlike you, Yaakov has hate in his heart. Don't be too naive. "This is a common theme going through your posts. Always complaining about others relative to the content of the article but even more so not saying anything about Sharon tells me that you," Not sure what you are talking about. I always praise Sharon and say that I support disengagement and think he is a great leader. "Poud Zionist are afraid to say anything negative about any of your people...apart from the leftists that is......I mean Left Jews are not Jews are they,Proud Zionist?" Like many Israelis these days, I tend to be center right (there is a reason why Sharon is PM). Therefore, I often criticize the left. What is your point? I have also criticized the right, such as telling Paul Harris that it is innappropriate when Jews write Holocaust numbers on their arm in protest, etc. Never have I said that left wing Jews aren't Jews, in fact, I am married to one. It is clear to anyone with a brain, though, that Yaakov HATES Israel and Jews. He used to live here, failed, and now he devotes his entire day to trafficking with Israel's enemies and making life harder for Jews actually living here. "I mean you cannot like Karl Marx and Michael Lerner AND also Judaism even if the first kibbutzim were leftists,G-d forbid." You certainly can, and many do (your allegations are silly and baseless-as usual). But if you single out Israel among all nations as a pariah, you are an anti-Semite or self-hater. Simple. Yaakov does that. You don't. You are naive. He hates Jews and Israel. "But Sharon? Come on. You are sworn to him as Prime Minister and he is taking on the left,the Right AND the Palestinians and we cant say ANYTHING about him." As usual, your comments are about as intelligent as a three-year old's. I suport Sharon but also criticize. What I don't do, is call terrorists by the name "rejectionists" (Yaakov does that). What I don't do is say that I can't support the Israelis because of the "occupation" but I can support the Palestinians despite terror (which Yaakov does).

One very common misconception in history is that Jews didnt live in israel until the 1920s. That is very very false. Jews had been there and people had a right to move in there. Anyone who decideds that peopl moving in is deserving of killing women and children is the REAL problem here and the only problem. I am glad you agree there is no excuse to start killing your neighbors..so we found the source of the violence....and guess what, it was BEFORE any made up occupation and ball of lies....makes you wonder doesnt it.

Pointing his finger at Ashkenazis (they are not,repeat,not,aryans or nazis) Martillo is trying to convince us that we should send all our Ashkinazis back to Europe. May I remind him that he lives is Boston,home of the celts.They actually trekked from the Middle East in druid form to Ireland and subsequently some of them found home in Boston. send them back to the middle east maybe in exchange for the Ashkenazis? of the northern Turks? or northern pakistani/Indians? Joachim Martillo,that doesnt sound an Gaelic name,why do you reside in Boston? Maybe Mexico City would be more apropos or HOW ABOUT CUBA with the inFidel himself Castro?

how do you think palestinians will live after they are in a palestine?maybe like in cairo? will they still be day laborers in Israel? what magic is going to transform the average joe out of a slum?do you think it will be democratic? what do you realistically expect?

Johanes--I found your letter #47 hit the nail on the head!! Thanks so much--Dutch

so muslims conquered the middle east north africa,turkey,caucasus,cental asia,southern asia etc.etc. not to mention the slave trade. europe left a mess and so did the muslims.

you are right Amir is a murderer not a terrorist. I just choose this example because I didn't want to say Begin (the King David hotel if I'm correct)

are you harping on again about the Ashkenazi? are we supposed to applaud you because you don't hate the Sephardim?or do you? all of your quotes and citations are written by arabs.yesterday you cited a website TOTALLY run and written by arabs.Gee,could they be BIASED? I am still waiting to find out why 6million Ashkenazi were killed if they werent really jews.

A very accurate political analysis... We're slowly raising the academic level on this forum!

Even though the Kristols and the Himmelfarbs passed through a brief Trotskyite phase, Neoconservativism really develops out of American Revisionism and by the late 1930s developed connections to American white racist Christian fundamentalism and the extreme right wing of the Republican party. The actors in establishing these connections include Benzion Netanyahu (father of Binyamin Netanyahu). Baruch Korff (Nixon's favorite Rabbi) and Rav Kook's nephew Bergson. The American Revisionists are part of the Revisionist movement created by Jabotinsky. This movement is the ancestor of Herut and Likud in Israel. Jabotinskian Revisionist Zionism was part of the great tide of right wing extremist organic nationalism that swept Eastern Europe from the 1890s through the 1940s, and Jabotinsky's movement had numerous ties to the extreme right in Poland, the Ukraine and Hungary.

Hey,Proud,I notice in most of your posts there is a lot about Yaakov and Red Ken but little about Sharon,the person that the article is about. This is a common theme going through your posts. Always complaining about others relative to the content of the article but even more so not saying anything about Sharon tells me that you,Poud Zionist are afraid to say anything negative about any of your people...apart from the leftists that is......I mean Left Jews are not Jews are they,Proud Zionist? I mean you cannot like Karl Marx and Michael Lerner AND also Judaism even if the first kibbutzim were leftists,G-d forbid. But Sharon? Come on. You are sworn to him as Prime Minister and he is taking on the left,the Right AND the Palestinians and we cant say ANYTHING about him. Cant rock the apple cart can we,PZ but smash Yaakov at any opportunity wont we?

Arabic people being kicked out of their houses in 1948 is not an invention of my imagination. I personally know people that it happened to. Denying this is equal to denying crimes such as ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, genocide perpetrated against the Tutsis in Rwanda, and the holocaust that was committed against ourselves. Shame on you! Please don't change into a Jewish David Irving. About the murders committed against the Jews in the 1920s, I'd really have to hear the Arabic point of view on it first to form a balanced opinion. If any of the very reasonable Palestinian respondents (Tareq, Hussam etc.) would like to jump in, please do... That violence is of course totally unjustifiable, as is the violence directed at both sides at present. Though I'm not sure as to the causes, I suspect that the sudden upsurge in Jewish inmigrants in the late 1800s (mainly from Northern Europe) had something to do with it. If you saw loads of people coming into your land, with a claim in their hand that this is the land of their ancestors, and THEREFORE (at least partially) theirs, you wouldn't be happy either. The coloniser's initial consent to the establishment of such a homeland on what had been for centuries land inhabited mostly by Arabs, must have inspired them with great fear regarding the future (and correctly so, with hindsight). So it isn't that easy to establish where history starts... Let me repeat though that that is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE to start killing your neighbours.

Yigal Amir is not a terorist. He is a murderer, a political assassin, if you wish, just like the person who assassinate Kennedy or any other political leader. Terrorists' goals are to instil fear in populations in order to make them come round to their way of thinking, in order to attain their oppressive goals by making their opponents submissive - as well as to create as much death, havoc and destruction as possible.