Report: UN evidence counters Israel's account of Gaza war

The Goldstone team did not press Hamada on his inconsistencies. Thus: Mr. Rashad Hamada ." ... We have a factory for tomato canning and another factory for fruit canning, in addition to Al-Bader Flour Mills, these were targeted during the Israeli aggression against Gaza. In addition, we have a factory for the production of diapers..." Later in the same presentation, he says: " All the factories in the eastern region were destroyed. Did they also have resistance? I don't know, but what I do know is that vital factories were targeted. Why? ..." And later: "This factory ... the flourmill is a part of a whole..... The mill is 6.5 dunums within 45 dunums that are totally closed. In this area there is the tomato factory, the tomato refrigeration, there are the diapers factory, the warehouses... All of this together is closed in four meters high cement walls and barbed wire. Only the production line of the flourmill was targeted. The tomato factory was not...

Colonel Desmond Travers "Mr. Hamada, thank you very much for your very detailed presentation. You mentioned that the strike by the F-16 was very precise or very deliberate. Can you tell us why, in your opinion, that this was so?" Mr. Rashad Hamada "Let us be truthful in what we say, war is war. War is war. Be it economic through siege, be it, uh, through F-16s, it is war. It is a war that took place and, uh, continues. It is a war that was launched by Israel and these are the results. We see the results. The shelling, the death and the destruction, but war is war. We have been dying for over two years, dying of siege and the last war came as a culmination of the siege." Where's the answer to Traver's question? To the contrary, the Goldstone team simply allowed Hamada to make a maudlin rant against Israel in a situation that is highly nuanced and ambiguous. Note the myriad inconsistencies and evasions Goldstone accepted, and this is just one man's testimony among hundreds of pages.

At the end of last year, in particular, after the fourth of November 2008 the crossing points were closed. Wheat was denied access into the Strip. Fortunately, the flourmill had a reserve. This reserve was about 9,000 tons of wheat.... We continued working with this quantity from the fourth of November until the day of the war, on the 27th of December 2008. One week or ten days before the start of the war, all the other flourmills in Gaza no longer had any wheat, and the concentration of flour for the whole need of the Gaza Strip was only from our factory, from Al-Bader Flour Mill... As for the targeting, it is because a flourmill that is working. There were four flourmills that were not producing and were not targeted... The other mills were not producing because they had run out of flour, not because they were mechanically inoperable. ALL the raw wheat/flour Gaza imports comes from Israel, which sent over 14,000 tons to Gaza during Cast Lead.

to say on this subject. In fact, 5 of my recent submissions(in 208-214) have not been printed by the Haaretz moderator, despite considerable effort at research. Note #208 is titled "facts, continued", because there was a preceding letter,"facts", that was not published. How about it, Haaretz? It doesn't really cost you anything, does it? And printing pertinent information is presumably what you're about. BTW, I find it remarkable that the anti-Zionist faction hasn't even tried to deal with any of this. That tells you volumes about their sincerity--and Goldstone's. Why do you think I have such contempt for you, Eurotwits?

I owe no apology for responding to years of suicide bombers and rockets that maimed and murdered and orphaned Jewish children within the euphemous green line...Passover destroyed at thPark hotel, My friends blown to bits at the dizengoff Center, Teenagers dead or almost dead at the Dolphinarium etc...all these with malice and forethought which are crimes punishable by death in any court of law. Harry Truman decided to protect 1000000soldiers by destroying their enemy for generations...Hiroshima and Nagasaky. Evacuating Gush Katif resulted in the enemy burning lucrative hot houses to clear the area to send death rockets.It was the duty of my government to respond and no government who has conducted war may judge us.To England I say Bloody Sunday negates your right to judge and all the bloody days in Ireland, India and Israel. To France I say Drancy and all the Drancies in Algeria and elsewhere.To the U.N. there are 57 moslem states. Cope with the one jewish state.

Standing on the water, Casting your bread, While the eyes of the idol With the iron head are glowing. Distant ships sailin' Into the mist; You were born with a Snake in both of your fists While a hurricane was blowing. Freedom,just around the Corner from you But with the truth So far off, what good Would it do? Good question, Bob. Actually, that's "Jokerman", from Bob Dylan's Greatest Hits(vol. 3), and my very favorite song. Check it out, Eurotwits.----Jim

"...On the dawn of the tenth of January, we received a call from the guard telling us that the factory was targeted by air with a missile and that it had caught fire. After 15 minutes, he called us again and told us that there are tanks approaching the area and that the factory was targeted with tank fire. We immediately informed the ICRC and the Civil Defense in order to put out the fire in the mill. At 11:00 a.m., we were told by the Civil Defense that the fire had been put out and that the guard had been evacuated from the surface area of the factory..." Take-away points: Hamada was not an eye-witness to the event. Hamada says the destruction was caused by a "missile" and tank fire, which he did not personally see, and which Israel has admitted to. While strictly speaking the term "missile" can apply to anything from a spitball to an ICBM, its ordinary meaning in this context is that of a self-guided rocket or free-flying rocket. He does not mention a "bomb" until much later.

Eurotwits? That is a measure of your superficiality. Plenty more to be mined from Hamada's testimony, none of which supports Goldstone's conclusions. If you disagree, why not write in, as long as Haaretz is keeping the thread open? Having fun? Me, too.

Much discussion here about the proper numbering of the mill's floors, with most readers backing the British system of calling the bottom floor "ground", and the floor above the ground floor No.1. Thus the mill would be numbered ground,1,2,3,4,5. Not so. This is the testimony of owner Rashad Hamada before Goldstone: "What happened at the mill is a total destruction... of the whole production line of the factory. Because this factory, in fact, is vertical, the equipment is set vertically. There are six floors. The production line was destroyed from the sixth floor to the ground floor. Three floors, the fifth, sixth and fourth were destroyed including all the equipment... And the other three floors, the first, second and third floors, they were totally burned." Note that Hamada does not differentiate between the "ground" floor and the "first" floor. The terms are interchangeable, but the "first" floor IS the bottom floor, contrary to the Guardian's British terminology.

Reza, Saudi Arabia is honored among Muslims as the birthplace of Islam and the home of Mecca and Medina, yet its human rights record is vastly worse than Israel's. 60 years after the birth of the US, slavery was legal. Mexican lands were appropriated, while genocide was b practiced against NativeAmericans("Indians"). Similar criticisms can be made against Australia(Aborigines)New Zealand(Maoris), China(Tibet and Xinjiang, Sudan(Darfur and South Sudan genocides, slavery still practiced).Israel is not perfect, and does not have to be perfect, to be admirable. Objectively, after 60 years, it comes across as enormously better than most of its critics. Note that the headline for the Guardian's much -discussed(here)article stated that "bombs"(plural)had been discovered in the al Badr mill;the article's body claimed that only 1 bomb had been found. Hardly an example of journalistic professionalism. You(plural) think you're not being propagandized by a sensationalist press?

"Michael would you expect Hamas to fix damage from 8000 Qassams?" I do wish Israel and its supporters would stop comparing Israel's behaviour with the behaviour of the Arab nations, and Hamas, and Hezbollah. What we hear ad infinitum is "Well, we're better than Saudi Arabia!" So what? And are you really? You are supposed to be a light to the nations. Unlike Saudi Arabia, Israel claims to be a western democracy. So act it. Another "excuse" frequently raised is Dresden and Hiroshima. "You did it! Carpet bombing and the atom bomb!" That was more than 60 years ago. Our attitudes are supposed to evolve. Ours have. Now it's your turn. After half a century of conflict, why can't you get the message that violence is not the solution to the Palestinian problem? I love Israel. I love Jews. I expect better of you than this.

4) There is no way to prove whether the found bomb was really dropped by the Israelis or placed by Hamas. An inert bomb, however, is unlikely to have caused the fire that destroyed the mill's machinery, and no mechanism for such an event has yet been proffered here. 5)Contrary to the speculation here, the mill guard(the only actual witness) claimed that only the one bomb had hit the mill. He also claimed that the mill had been hit by several rockets, but the UN team did not find, or even look for, evidence of such an attack any more than it found evidence of tank shells because, said the team, such a search WAS NOT IN THEIR MANDATE, which was simply to check the one bomb. Convenient. 5)There was fighting all around the mill, including Hamas tunnels and booby traps, and at least 1 ambush of an Israeli patrol , meaning the Israeli account of errant tank shells is credible.

a mk-82("dumb bomb" and relatively cheap), with a "smart bomb" guidance kit attached becomes a gbu-12(laser guided, much more expensive), or a gps guided gbu-38(very expensive jdam). it's most unlikely a precision bomb would be used on a relatively isolated, stand alone target. a "dumb bomb" means it's not guided to a precise point after leaving the aircraft, but a fighter jet's weapons delivery system can still put it right on the target. it's not like its a hit and miss proposition. why spend $20-40,000 when $300-500 will do the job nicely.

and the mk-339, which your quoting from, has a pilot option funtion, which allows the pilot to choose between two settings, depending on which bomb rack arming solenoids he selects to arm(these retain the arming wire if selected; which pulls it out of the fuze as it drops). what's being said about the 339 is that the pilot must either select nose, or nose/tail. if he selects the tail solenoid only, the fuze duds. but again, the 339 would NOT be used on anything else but a cluster bomb.

and please note, the picture directly below the functional description of the m904 is of a mk339 fuze used on cluster bombs(mk-20), and is designed for an air detonation of primacord in the bomb casing, which splits it open to allow the dispersal of bomblets. both the wires you point out are exactly what they're called: "wires". steel arming wire, to be precise. the ones for the 339(and the fuze itself, are installed on the bomb at the factory in nice little plastic conduits attached to the casing. wires for the m904, and the fuze itself, are installed by bomb build-up personnel, or less frequently by load crews, and comes in bulk form in rolls of several thousand feet. it's got a part number and a federal stock number. the item terminology is "steel wire"; or "arming wire" to ordnance personnel.

a mk-82("dumb bomb" and relatively cheap), with a "smart bomb" guidance kit attached becomes a gbu-12(laser guided, much more expensive), or a gps guided gbu-38(very expensive jdam). it's most unlikely a precision bomb would be used on a relatively isolated, stand alone target. a "dumb bomb" means it's not guided to a precise point after leaving the aircraft, but a fighter jet's weapons delivery system can still put it right on the target. it's not like its a hit and miss proposition. why spend $20-40,000 when $300-500 will do the job nicely.

and the mk-339, which your quoting from, has a pilot option funtion, which allows the pilot to choose between two settings, depending on which bomb rack arming solenoids he selects to arm(these retain the arming wire if selected; which pulls it out of the fuze as it drops). what's being said about the 339 is that the pilot must either select nose, or nose/tail. if he selects the tail solenoid only, the fuze duds. but again, the 339 would NOT be used on anything else but a cluster bomb.

and please note, the picture directly below the functional description of the m904 is of a mk339 fuze used on cluster bombs(mk-20), and is designed for an air detonation of primacord in the bomb casing, which splits it open to allow the dispersal of bomblets. both the wires you point out are exactly what they're called: "wires". steel arming wire, to be precise. the ones for the 339(and the fuze itself, are installed on the bomb at the factory in nice little plastic conduits attached to the casing. wires for the m904, and the fuze itself, are installed by bomb build-up personnel, or less frequently by load crews, and comes in bulk form in rolls of several thousand feet. it's got a part number and a federal stock number. the item terminology is "steel wire"; or "arming wire" to ordnance personnel.

a mk-82("dumb bomb" and relatively cheap), with a "smart bomb" guidance kit attached becomes a gbu-12(laser guided, much more expensive), or a gps guided gbu-38(very expensive jdam). it's most unlikely a precision bomb would be used on a relatively isolated, stand alone target. a "dumb bomb" means it's not guided to a precise point after leaving the aircraft, but a fighter jet's weapons delivery system can still put it right on the target. it's not like its a hit and miss proposition. why spend $20-40,000 when $300-500 will do the job nicely.

and the mk-339, which your quoting from, has a pilot option funtion, which allows the pilot to choose between two settings, depending on which bomb rack arming solenoids he selects to arm(these retain the arming wire if selected; which pulls it out of the fuze as it drops). what's being said about the 339 is that the pilot must either select nose, or nose/tail. if he selects the tail solenoid only, the fuze duds. but again, the 339 would NOT be used on anything else but a cluster bomb.

and please note, the picture directly below the functional description of the m904 is of a mk339 fuze used on cluster bombs(mk-20), and is designed for an air detonation of primacord in the bomb casing, which splits it open to allow the dispersal of bomblets. both the wires you point out are exactly what they're called: "wires". steel arming wire, to be precise. the ones for the 339(and the fuze itself, are installed on the bomb at the factory in nice little plastic conduits attached to the casing. wires for the m904, and the fuze itself, are installed by bomb build-up personnel, or less frequently by load crews, and comes in bulk form in rolls of several thousand feet. it's got a part number and a federal stock number. the item terminology is "steel wire"; or "arming wire" to ordnance personnel.

What people don't understand is that the Advocate general said he found no evidence, how can he when they with held it from him?

Please note that the IDF's Advocate General had found that the mill did come under ground attack, but that he "did not find any evidence to support the assertion that the mill was attacked from the air using precise munitions". That little phrase, "precise munitions" does NOT rule out the use of a very common bomb in the Israeli arsenal since the MK82 is not a precision weapon.

http://www.ordnance.org/fuzes.htm "If the pilot selects the option mode of delivery, both the arming wire and the option wire are pulled out, initiating the option time mode of the fuze. If only the option time wire is pulled out on airborne release, the fuze will dud. Both the fuze arming wire and option wire must be pulled out for the fuze to function in the option mode." So if the "option time wire" ONLY came away then the bomb goes into "option mode" but it no go boom. And so the first thing a disposal expert will do is "put that wire back in" before the OTHER wire can come out while he's standing there next to the bomb. That does tend to concentrate the mind, which is probably why the guy talked about the "M273" rather than the "M904".

e: "it`s a MECHANICAL nose fuze. the only thing attached to it, other than the bomb, is a steel wire that is pulled out of its arming vane when its DROPPED!" Ahem! http://www.ordnance.org/fuzes.htm Examine the section titled "Functional Description". Look at the photo. The "Fuse arming wire" is labelled "7". There is ANOTHER wire there, eric, labelled: "15". Dat bomb no go boom if dat wire don't do it's thang.

if it had a tail fuze and partially detonated. some mk-82's have been around for 20 years, although the u.s. has up most if not all of those since '91. but if it was u.s. made, and israel had it for awhile...never know? and if it broke in half without detonating, depending on what it hit and at what angle, the pieces could easily have been catapulted as a result.

it's a MECHANICAL nose fuze. the only thing attached to it, other than the bomb, is a steel wire that is pulled out of its arming vane when its DROPPED! the vane spins in the airstream on its way down and arms the fuze after spinning for the selected time to arm. only electrical fuzes use fuze "cables".

but regardless, if it was dropped on the mill, the report's assertion remains the same whether it detonated or not; and so does israel's attempt to misrepresent...IF this story is true.

J: "all they had to do was relocate a bomb dropped on another target and poof, there goes Israel`s legitimacy." Actually, it would be the presence of a bomb and the absence of tank shell fragments that would tend to send Israel's explanation down the S-bend...... A UN munitions team went into that building. 1) They reported finding a bomb. 2) They didn't report finding any tank shells. That does rather support Goldstone, and does rather undermine the IDF's explanation.

EW: "But the bomb did detonate! Ok, half of the bomb." Why do you make that claim, EW? The Guardian claims only that the bomb snapped in two on impact. And, so sorry, but it would seem to be quite natural that the UN Munitions experts were only interested in defusing and removing the half that contained the warhead. Nobody has made any claim that this bomb detonated, nor has anyone from the UN or the Guardian suggested that this was the only bomb that was dropped on this building. Why erect a staw man argument, EW?

Most of it would be filling holes in empty fields.

G: "After 20 years of service I do know a thing or two about fuses. Never heard of one with that designation." Gee, it took me about five minutes to google up the fact that the Mk 82 uses a M904 mechanical fuse. And amongst the many components that make up the M904 fuse there is one part that is of great interest to anyone who has to defuse the damn thing: the "M273 Fuse Cable". The Guardian spoke to someone who knew the difference between an "M904 fuse with an M273 fuse cable" and an "M904 with a M271 fuse cable". Gee, can I suggest that your long years of hefting Big Things That Go Bang onto the wings of Sleek Things That Go Fast may not make you an expert on those What Little Things Have To Be Removed To Stop Those Big Things From Going BAAAAAAAAANG!!!!! Just a thought, ya' know.....

Ladies & gentlemen . It is Shakespeare came alive with sound & fury of 500 lb. bomb discussion. So, it did detonate. If it did tiny fragments of a bomb { outer shell of a bomb , to be precise} with size of a grain molded with any type of material in surroundings can be found at the distance up to 300 yards. Fuse can not be found unless somebody considers its molecules being stamped with hateful "Made in Israel" . Even Zionists can not do it. Lets face this fact. So it did not detonate. Obviously not as it was defused. If it did not detonate everybody could see the deformed bomb & clay looking explosives. But the bomb did detonate! Ok, half of the bomb. Another half did not. And this half bears the same devilish sign: "Made in Israel". This half was defused & presented as evidence. Explosive were not. But should. Half of it. In crimes commited against humanity Israel can do even worse than half detonated , fuse preserved, nobody killed 500 lb explosives bomb

L: "So they found an unexploded bomd someplace else and `planted` it in the mill." In which case we are left with the claim that the flour mill was hit by IDF tanks firing 120mm artillery shells. Which means, of course, that the UN munitions experts who entered the building would have ALSO noted the presence of 120mm artillery shell fragments. No such discover has been reported, which rather suggests that: IF your claim of a "Pallywood" is correct THEN this flour mill just spontaneously combusted during the heat of battle OR Israel manufactures its 120mm tank shells out of Magic Fairy Dust. Which one, leoblue? After all, you seem to have handwaved away the only alternative i.e. that a UXB is evidence that the building was attacked from the air.

Don't you know the more you shout the more guilty you look? moron The UN and Guardian documented finding the bomb fragment on Jan 25th. This was days after the massacre and you'd have to be a complete imbecile (most likely in your case) to think that there were people scurrying around looking for bomb pieces to carry over to some other building when they knew nothing of the course future investigations might take. Only a slimeball could conjure up something like that.

JimUSA says: "no one is claiming that a precision guidance system was found with the more-or-less intact forward half of the bomb. Hence, no "precision" strike. Wake up." Jim...you just destroyed all your credibility... the guidance systems on those bombs are in the tail, where they control the vanes and acquire the GPS signal. stay off Talkback and don't embarrass yourself again

What Israel did during the massacre of Gaza will for ever stain her reputation; she basically lost credibility around the world. It's kinda hard to justify the killing of 400 children and the bombing of hospitals, schools, ambulances and mosques. I think Israel should grow up and admits that she does not believe in respecting the palestinians humans rights.

The full attention is now directed to the Goldstone Report. Unfortunatly, the real problem and origen of the conflict has now, apparently or Purposely, been forgotten. The hundreds of rocketts sent to the southern cities by Hamas and other terrorists is not even mentioned anymore. Shame on you UN.

Between the un and the guadian one should not rely on their veracity. The only thing to rely on is their anti Israel bias

Rashad Hamada, who together with his brother owned the al-Badr flour mill, gave evidence in a public hearing in June last year. Both brothers have good contacts with Israeli counterparts, have hard to get business permits, which allow them to travel between Gaza and Israel and their statements are credible. Rashad Hamadan said that the factory twice received phone calls from the Israeli military, telling them to evacuate the building, which according to his account was hit by air strikes. The production in the only remaining productive mill, which had a large supply of wheat, was spread over 5 floors. The unexploded airplane bomb pierced the concrete layers of 4 floors before it came to rest on the 1st (UK) floor. Sounds very credible to me, based on my experiences in Lebanon. Most damage was done by shells from tanks and Apache helicopters, but the unexploded airplane bomb showed that the Israelis lied. They did target the factory from the air, but the bomb failed to explode!!

You're very generous, Justin. I suggest that you start sharing your own capital with somebody you really dislike. Try it for a few weeks, see how you like it.

SDHD: "Taking out snipers is diabolical?" There were no snipers in the flour mill. The IDF admits that there were no snipers in the flour mill. The IDF has now fallen back on: "Ooops! We can't shoot straight! My Bad!" Remind me again, SDHD, how far away from that flour mill were those snipers? And remind me agin, SDHD, how you "pick off" snipers by firing so many 120mm HE tank shells at them that "Oooops! My Bad! I've accidentally demolished a flour mill!" SDHD: "Where is your brain?" It is attached to the eyes that just recently saw the IDF go from: 1) There were snipers in the UNRWA compound! to 2) Well, we THOUGHT there were snipers there! to 3) OK, OK, there weren't any snipers. to 4) Here's your friggin' $10million, stop ya' bellyaching, will ya'. There is a pattern to the IDF's excuses, SDHD, that anyone with a brain and eyes can see for themselves. What's your excuse?

It appears some do not understand that bombs follow a trajectory after release. We have all seen the cartoons where Wile Coyote runs off a cliff, stands still in the air, looks down, looks shocked, and then plummets straight down. Bombs dropped from airplanes do not do this. The law of conservation of momentum applies to bombs dropped from moving airplanes. Depending upon a number of factors, including the drag coefficient and ballistic coefficient, a bomb will continue to follow the path of the airplane while accelerating downward in an arc until impact. Thus a bomb dropped low enough and/or fast enough may actually impact the target at a low rather than high angle.

The bombs need not have arrived straight down. The

just so long as it isn't really just unadulterated cynicism. Now, how to spot the difference. For example, were you as skeptical of Israeli/IDF claims...such as in film director James Miller's case when in 2008 after a campaign by the victims family supported by the UK Gov, Israel finally admitted responsibility and offered £1.75M to the family to dissuade the UK from seeking extradition of the guilty killer. 5 years for some kind of justice after several years of Israeli stonewalling and obfuscations. They did not investigate thoroughly in the Miller case above until forced to. Nor in the Tom Hurndall case. Only after a campaign by Hurndalls family, supported by then FM Jack Straw, [The IDF initially refused more than a routine internal inquiry, which concluded that Hurndall was shot accidentally in the crossfire] former Israeli army sergeant Taysir Hayb received an eight-year jail sentence for the killing, eventually. Hayb said a policy of shooting at unarmed civilians existed at the time. Ouch! Now tell me you trust the Israeli Gov or IDF accounts. Go on?

'an unexploded bomb cannot destroy the flour mill. if the flour mill is not destroyed by the bomb, goldstone`s claim of war crime is spurious and and deceitful' One bomb didn't explode. This does not mean that no bombs exploded. Secondly, even one unexploded bomb means that the IDF specifically targeted the building for destruction. Even if they had to finish the job with tanks or artillery the point is it proves intent to destroy the 'flour mill'. That is why your post is spurious, though more likely just hapless.

'an unexploded bomb cannot destroy the flour mill. if the flour mill is not destroyed by the bomb, goldstone`s claim of war crime is spurious and and deceitful' One bomb didn't explode. This does not mean that no bombs exploded. Secondly, even one unexploded bomb means that the IDF specifically targeted the building for destruction. Even if they had to finish the job with tanks or artillery the point is it proves intent to destroy the flour mill. That is why your post is spurious, though more likely just hapless.

Did the rear half of the claimed broken bomb explode or not? If not, what caused the fire that destroyed the mill machinery? If it did, where are the holes blasted in the roof, walls, and upper floors? 250 lbs. of TNT(half the bomb)falling out of the sky makes a big mess, so where are the obvious indications? The pro-Pals are still living in Jeningrad. Reminds me of the Breaking the Silence accusations that were phrased as if the accusers were eye-witnesses but turned out to be pure hearsay.

SDHD: "It could also prove that the bomb was placed there." In which case it would have been found amongst 120mm tank artillery fragments because, of course, if you handwave away the evidence of an airstrike then you are left with tank artillery fire as your explanation. So where are the 120mm tank shell fragments, SDHD? A team of UN munitions experts entered that building, and they didn't find any..... Your argument faces that fundamental problem i.e. if 500 pound Mk82 bombs DIDN'T knock down that mill then you are left with "evaporating tank shells" and, so sorry, "120mm evaporating tank shells" don't actually exist. If the mill had been demolished by tank-fire then the UN team would have reported finding "lots of 120mm tank shell fragments and, oh yeah, one 500 pound UXB". They. Did. Not. Your. Argument. Stinks.

Anyone who thinks that because a bomb has fins it is a "smart" weapon should learn to read and maybe what a few World War II movies. All bombs dropped from aircraft have fins. The MK-82 is a cheap bomb but it is not a smart bomb. It serves as a basis for the GBU-12 laser guided bomb, which is a smart bomb. I assume that the UN personnel can tell the difference. The article makes it unclear as to whether the bomb exploded or did not. How could they disarm the "remains" of a bomb. Either it was intact and dangerous, or they found it exploded--and no longer dangerous. Assuming that the bomb wasn't set in place by UN personnel, or Hamas and other terrorists, of reporters, there are _many_ explanations for how the bomb (or remains of a bomb) got there. Only one requires that the Israelis lied. That so many people are willing, no WANTING, to use this as proof of Israeli culpability is merely another sign of the virulent racism inherent in Palestinism.

CJK: "an unexploded bomb cannot destroy the flour mill." A single F-16 can carry TWELVE M82 bombs, so a single F-16 can still be certain of destroying a mill even if one of those bombs fails to detonate. CJK: "if the flour mill is not destroyed by the bomb," It was not destroyed by THAT bomb, because THAT bomb didn't explode. It was the OTHER bombs that weren't duds that destroyed the mill. CJK: "goldstone`s claim of war crime is spurious and and deceitful." OK, Cippie, you face a problem: 1) Israel says the mill was hit by tank fire. 2) A UN demolitions team entered that mill. 3) THEY DIDN'T FIND ANY TANK SHELLS. So where did all those 120mm artillery fragments go, Cippie? Or were they always the fragments of figments of your imagination?

v: "unexplodeds dont normally breakup" Of course they can; the warhead can easily separate from the tail unit on impact. v: "because if they do they explode!" The warhead and fuse were found intact by the MAG. The tail unit had torn off. If the fuse does not detonate then the warhead need not (and in this case, did not) explode, regardless of the damage done to the rest of the bomb casing. v: "the blast from an aerial bomb goes upwards and the flour mill would have been spread all over gaza ?" Rather depends upon the layout of the mill, the thickness of its walls, and the location of the hits, does it not? v: "this report is the usual pallywood crap planted for defamation !" A quick question for you, victor: Why is there no mention of the MAG finding tank shells? After all, SOMETHING blew up that mill, and if you deny that it was a bomb then it has to have been tank artillery. So why didn't the MAG report finding any?

M: "So it was the mine found by the UN action team or the Guardian?" It was found independently by both. You have no reason to suspect that either party had been aware of the movements of the other. M: "And if it was The Guardian, I thought international media had been banned from Gaza by Israel?" If the Guardian already had someone in Gaza before the ban was imposed then Israel isn't going to do INTO Gaza and tell him to leave, is it? M: "Or wait, was it the UN team that reported it?" Why would the UN MAG have known (much less cared) that a reporter for a British newspaper had ALREADY entered the building and had ALREADY noted the presence of that bomb? M: "I assume it is not exclusively Palestinian, right?" Bomb disposal is exceptionally specialized, and the UN MAG's are almost invariably NATO people on secondment.

support from Americans. Unless they do a quick turn around, I am sure that they will not like the outcome. Many people in my state was very much pro-Israel. Since Cast Lead they are becoming very put out with them. What is it going to take for Israel to wake up.

'an unexploded bomb cannot destroy the flour mill. if the flour mill is not destroyed by the bomb, goldstone`s claim of war crime is spurious and and deceitful' One bomb didn't explode. This does not mean that no bombs exploded. Secondly, even one unexploded bomb means that the IDF specifically targeted the building for destruction. Even if they had to finish the job with tanks or artillery the point is it proves intent to destroy the 'flour mill'. That is why your post is spurious, though more likely just hapless.

Goldstone said the mill was destroyed by an airstrike. The IDF said that, no, it was inadvertantly destroyed by tank fire. The UN team find the remains of a 500 pound Mk82 air-dropped bomb i.e. they find evidence that Goldstone was right and the IDF was wrong. A SETUP! THE BOMB WAS PLACED THERE! S.E.T.U.P! Only...... where are the fragments of tank munitions? They must have be there is that's what demolished that building, and that MAG must have found them. There is no mention of the MAG finding any, guys. Are you *REALLY* going to suggest that Hamas not only placed that bomb there, but they *also* swept the place clean of tank shells? Occam's razor cuts clean through that nonsense: the MAG found a bomb because the IDF had dropped bombs on that mill, and they didn't find tank rounds because no tank fire was directed at that building.

"finding on the first floor of the building what appeared to be the remains of an aircraft-dropped bomb" "The remains of the bomb were found on an upper floor in a narrow walkway..." JimUSA: "So where was the 'bomb' found? 'First floor' or 'upper floor'? Nothing prevents the "first floor" of a building being the "upper floor", Jim. Indeed, in a two story building the first floor is not only the "upper floor" (c.f. the "ground floor") but it is also the "top floor". I have no idea how many floors this floor mill **used** to have, but after being attacked by 500 pound Mk82 bombs I'd be very, very surprised if there were more than two floors left standing.

JE: "Mill` roof` explosion Not constant with a aircraft-dropped bomb" Very nicely put... only.... the presence of an air-dropped bomb is very consitant with the dropping of a bomb from an aircraft. So unless you come up with some OTHER explanation for how that 500-pound Mk82 bomb got there then your circumstantial "evidence" is, so sorry, rather badly trumped by the hard evidence gathered by the UN.

"Did they find the other part of the bomb? i am not an expert on bombs." - a wandering jew I do not know. The fin assembly, is stored and shipped separately from the bomb proper. They often do not stay attached during penetration of structures. The Mk 80 family has a variety of fin and ballout assemblies which can be added to the bomb as necessary. For a cutaway drawing and photos of Mk 82s with various fin examples see. http://gunplumbers.org/Weapons/mk80.html

"more for you jim unexplodeds dont normally breakup" - vhardman Not at all uncommon for bombs to break apart when they land. Fins tend to come off. There is a picture of a Mk 83, a 1,000 lb bomb of the same Mk. 80 family, at http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/193384.php "because if they do they explode!" - vhardhead Bombs only explode when the fuze works. p.s. read about the Mk 82 at this site and note the words "Typical targets are the same for the basic MK-82, but the high drag delivery can provide better weapon effects due to impact angle and REDUCED LIKELHOOD OF CASING BREAK-UP. " http://www.vipersinthestorm.com/html/weapons_bunker_-_page_1.html Some of the deniers on this forum are desperate to invent excuses.

Goldstone contends that the purpose of the attack on the mill was to deprive the Gazans of food. 1/. Israel allowed fire trucks in to put out the fire. If Israel's intentions were collective punishment why would they do this Mr Goldstone? 2/. Israel was responsible for food supplies to the Gaza population. The mill represented a minor proportion of this food. The destruction of the mill would only require further supplies to be made available through the crossings. Should Israel have withheld that food it might be a different story, but they didn't. Goldstone is wrong again. Goldstone shows his bias in leaping to conclusions about Israel's intentions. 3/. The unexploded mystery bomb should have identifiable markings which would link it to the combat mission. It would be interesting to know the IDF's version of the combat history of this bomb.

"The fact (?) that an unexploded Mk. 82 "dumb bomb" in the mill had to be defused by a UN bomb squad proves that the bomb was not what destroyed the mill, obviously." - L. Brnd I guess you think it is normal to drop a single bomb on a target. As the Mk. 82 is a 500 lb bomb a single bomb could not have destroyed the factory. The mill was destroyed by BOMBS dropped on it as per the Goldstone report.

"an unexploded bomb cannot destroy the flour mill. if the flour mill is not destroyed by the bomb, goldstone`s claim of war crime is spurious and and deceitful." - Cipora Cipora, one bomb did not explode. Others dropped on the mill exploded. Your argument is pathetic.

Israel struck at Gaza in late 2008, in the final months of the Olmert regime. What were the goals of the attack? 1. We know now that the IDF avoided direct engagement with Hamas forces in order to minimize Israeli casualties. 2. We also know that Defense Minister Barak wanted to end the operation after a few days, but Olmert insisted on its continuation for weeks. It appears therefore that the Israeli goal was to punish Hamas for the Katyusha attacks on Sderot and deter them from repeating the act. There was no goal of destroying the military capability of Hamas, for this cannot be done without actual confrontation and even occupation. 3. Additional support comes from analogy with Olmert`s actions in Lebanon. No realistic goals but destruction, and mostly it was infrastructure. With the only goal and continued bombardments in Gaza, the IDF had to destroy civilian "assets" and this is the cause for war-crimes, there was nothing else to do. See Prov. 29:18 for lack of vision

I'm waiting for The Guardian to investigate Hamas' claim they never fired rockets on civilians. Maybe they can discover secret Israeli military installations buried underneath the Sderot kindergartens.

just so long as it isn't just unadulterated cynicism. Now, how to spot the difference. For example, are you as skeptical of Israeli/IDF claims...such as in film director James Miller's case when in 2008 after a campaign by the victims family supported by the UK Gov Israel finally admitted responsibility and offered £1.75M to the family to dissuade the UK from seeking extradition of the guilty killer. 5 years for some kind of justice after several years of Israeli stonewalling and obfuscations. They did not investigate thoroughly in the Miller case above until forced to. Nor in the Tom Hurndall case. Only after a campaign by Hurndalls family, supported by then FM Jack Straw, [The IDF initially refused more than a routine internal inquiry, which concluded that Hurndall was shot accidentally in the crossfire] former Israeli army sergeant Taysir Hayb received an eight-year jail sentence for the killing, eventually. Hayb said a policy of shooting at unarmed civilians existed at the time. Ouch! Now tell me you trust the Israeli Gov or IDF accounts. Go on?

Sending the UN and the Guardian to obtain counter "evidence" to Israel's report,...is akin to the proverbial "sending the fox to watch the fox to watch the chicken coop" Aside from its long record of biased reporting against Israel, the Guardian newspaper again showed its lack of credibility on January 20l0 when it headlined a report that Jared Maslin the Maan journalist who arrested for overstaying his visa.WAS DEPORTED WHEN IN FACT HE LEFT ISRAEL VOLUNTARILY! As for the U.N.and their myriad of anti-Israel resolutions ... I quote the late Abba Eban who said "I would rather have their condemnations than their condolences"

if you wish to destroy an enemy the battles must continue till it has been completed. every time israel attempts to do this the arabs cry foul and the worlds sob sisters attempt to bring in a cease fire . the operations then are worse than useless and encourage further terrorist attacks ! the first strikes just leave a big mess without ever reaching real objectives ! this never happens to the major powers who continue until all objectives have been attained!

What makes you so sure you speak for Americans, Terry?

What Joseph writes seems to be wrong if you actually look at the pictures, see the one on page 44 of the ISRAELI report: http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/8E841A98-1755-413D-A1D2-8B30F64022BE/0/GazaOperationInvestigationsUpdate.pdf It look as if there could have been some attack from above...

So they found an unexloded bomd someplace else and 'planted' it in the mill.

Can,t say I blame you SDHD ---Must be tough being on the losers side and having leaders such as netanyahu and his nightclub bouncer FM ru(i)nning the show. I must admit though I enjoy watching you squirming and desperately dodging the missiles heading your way in the form of facts versus long winded posts full of insults and ad hominem. That all you got to hit back with Mr San Diego.

Michael: Have you ever read the Guardian? The editorials, cartoons and comments (CIF) are outrageously anti-Israel bordering on anti-semitic. If I am wrong why did the publisher of the Guardian recently apologize to the Jewish community regarding its editorials on the purported Jenin "massacre"? And what about its award-winning cartoon of a few years ago showing Ariel Sharon covered with Stars of David biting off the head of a Palestinian? The Guardian is a rag of the Der Sturmer ilk! And to compare it to Haaretz is an invention of your fertile mind.

an unexploded bomb cannot destroy the flour mill. if the flour mill is not destroyed by the bomb, goldstone's claim of war crime is spurious and and deceitful.

why is the UN questioning a people chosen by God to be the light unto the world.No way zionists have are ever will lie.Ahhh maybe spin but surely not lies.

Nobody can seriously deny that Israel violated International law when it comes to the Gaza offensive in 2008/2009. Those who deny it live in their own fantasy land and will never change their minds regardless of the evidence. World wide they are a very small minority as most of the world knows exactly that it's actions when it comes to the Palestinians are despicable, illegal and violate binding UNSC resolutions and ICJ rulings at the Hague. The great majority of us should never be intimidated by these zealots who think Israel is above the law and better than everyone else. I am certainly not!

..maybe the truth will come out..maybe there will be a vote in the Security council...can you say "no veto"....very interesting... Goldstone has legs..something real bad happened in Gaza...

Nice try by the Hamas-UN-Guardian propagandists! Any sane and critical person would have entertained the thought that Hamas put those fragments there afterwards. But why be critical of "evidence" if it serves to depict Israel in a negative way!

just so long as it isn't just unadulterated cynicism. Now, how to spot the difference. For example, are you as skeptical of Israeli/IDF claims...such as in film director James Miller's case when in 2008 after a campaign by the victims family supported by the UK Gov Israel finally admitted responsibility and offered £1.75M to the family to dissuade the UK from seeking extradition of the guilty killer. 5 years for some kind of justice after several years of Israeli stonewalling and obfuscations. They did not investigate thoroughly in the Miller case above until forced to. Nor in the Tom Hurndall case. Only after a campaign by Hurndalls family, supported by then FM Jack Straw, [The IDF initially refused more than a routine internal inquiry, which concluded that Hurndall was shot accidentally in the crossfire] former Israeli army sergeant Taysir Hayb received an eight-year jail sentence for the killing, eventually. Hayb said a policy of shooting at unarmed civilians existed at the time. Ouch! Now tell me you trust the Israeli Gov or IDF accounts. Go on?

A trick question which i can not win. An Israeli city where "Everyone" can live "free and equal.

dont need to see any inquiry, all i know is over 1 300 palestinian civilians were murdered and lest then 11 israelis died!!! now leave it to your concience to make the right conclusions

is trusted well enough by the Israelis. Why don't you read the report. I know, just a thought...

Typical of you. The potato famine was over 150 years ago. How much relevance does it have to today's world? How about something up to date (or can you)?

Or like evidence that there were no Hamas fighters at UN schoolyard in Gaza? And that there were no Hamas explosives stocked in Mosques?

So the British Army shot Northern Irish catholic xhildren in their hundreds then? And the IRA were not committing acts opf terrorism, incidentally infinetley more deadly than bottle rockets fored at Sderot (an occupied Palestinian town) News to me can you point me to the evidence please? And if we did, you to can refer us to the war crimes tribunal in The Hague. Your right as a member of the United Nations.

Did the british Governemnt kill 400 Irish children in three weeks because the IRA were planting bonbs right left and centre? Yes or no will suffice

i can not win. My wish is an Israeli city where EVERYONE can live equally and free. Sorry, it is the best i can do.

"The Palestinians, The Guardian, the UN... a fake unexploded bomb, multiple witnesses..." okay consider the history of this trio with regards to Israel I don't think its out of qualm to suggest evidence may have been planted? It has not been proven but I would not be surprised. Again just reiterate I would take with a grain of salt what these groups tell me. Again no specific evidence to back up their claims just their testimony. And I believe these are the same groups that were screaming from the rooftops about a massacre in Jenin. We all new what that turned out to be once the "facts" came out.

"1. We know now that the IDF avoided direct engagement with Hamas forces in order to minimize Israeli casualties." We know Hamas were hiding in tunnels. "Without real goals and continued bombardments in Gaza, the IDF had to destroy civilian "assets" and this is the cause for war-crimes" Goal was to drastically reduce the rocket fire from Gaza into Israel. Goal was achieved.

Israel struck at Gaza in late 1998, in the final months of the Olmert regime. What were the goals of the attack? 1. We know now that the IDF avoided direct engagement with Hamas forces in order to minimize Israeli casualties. 2. We also know that Defense Minister Barak wanted to end the operation after a few days, but Olmert insisted on its continuation for weeks. It appears therefore that the Israeli goal was to punish Hamas for the Katyusha attacks on Sderot and deter them from repeating the act. There was no goal of destroying the military capability of Hamas, for this cannot be done by actual confrontation and even occupation. 3. Additional support comes from analogy with Olmert's actions in Lebanon. No realistic goals but destruction, and mostly it was infrastructure. Without real goals and continued bombardments in Gaza, the IDF had to destroy civilian "assets" and this is the cause for war-crimes, there was nothing else to do. See Prov. 29:18 for lack of vision.

"Esther`s posts are at least intelligent and demonstrate some logical thought process." Nonsense. Her posts demonstrate limited thinking, as do yours. me: "Taking out snipers is diabolical? Where is your brain?" cummings: "Who said anything about snipers?" The Israeli report, dimbulb. " Not Goldstone, not the IDF, in fact no one." Yes, dimbulb, the IDF did. " Where is the evidence for it? Pictures? (Verbatim) military reports?" Read the report, dunce. " There is none. Admit it, you just make it up from your armchair in San Diego." I didn't write the IDF response in San Diego, dopey. "Being rude to ladies is not a wildly commendable trait," However, demonstrating how dumb anti-Israelis are is.

"The Palestinians, The Guardian, the UN... a fake unexploded bomb, multiple witnesses...all telling the same story." You're making up one heck of a story. How do you know who saw what and when?

a palestinian state with one of the following options. -east jerusalem as its capital -shared soverignity of jerusalem between palestina and israel -international status for jerisalem for christians, muslims and jews which option do you prefer.

"After 20 years of service I do know a thing or two about fuses." so you're great on fuses but lousy on reading "Also it was found on the roof was it." "on the first floor of the building" IN ABOVE ARTICLE. Duh!

Esther's posts are at least intelligent and demonstrate some logical thought process. What is this meant to be?: "Taking out snipers is diabolical? Where is your brain?" Who said anything about snipers? Not Goldstone, not the IDF, in fact no one. Where is the evidence for it? Pictures? (Verbatim) military reports? There is none. Admit it, you just make it up from your armchair in San Diego. Being rude to ladies is not a wildly commendable trait, you diminish to the status of a diminutive stalker when you use that kind of stuff.

you mean the UN & co. it is not a hamas accusation but a UN accusation. or you want to play the semantic game and slip away again

"I do know a thing or two about fuses" Gee but not alot about reading? "on the first floor" not the roof dimwit.

Maybe the Right Track is a Palestinian State without Hamas/Hezbullah. The moderate Arabs are for it, most Western nations are for it, and Israel would love it which means it could happen.

The Palestinians, The Guardian, the UN... a fake unexploded bomb, multiple witnesses... all telling the same story. Some reflexive armchair denier can dismiss all who might incriminate Israel, yet the report was just that-a report which you would not deem to read.Hence your views are somewhat uninformed. Evidence of the bomb being found is evidence that the mill was targeted. Perhaps Israel should do what it has reluctantly and belatedly been doing elsewhere regarding Cast Lead as in the White Phosphorous palava, that wasn't... then was.

all they had to do was relocate a bomb dropped on another target and poof, there goes Israel's legitimacy. Did the mine team do diagnostics to indeed confirm that this bomb caused the damage? Quite frankly, without any knowledge of how bombs work, does it seem logical that a 500 pound bomb did not destroy everything in its vecinity, including burnt out machinery, an outside wall, and the floor it landed on?

You're showing your American-ness. In most of the world, they call what we call the 2d floor the 1st floor and what we call the first floor the ground floor. Thus, the first floor is an "upper floor."

typical Zionist response. hiding behind semantics. upper floor and first floor are compatible words. why dont you just accuse the UN of being antisemitic

It took Israel 3 1/2 months to produce "evidence" in response to the Goldstone Report; the UN smacks it down in a matter of days.

"Goldstone`s qualifications and history of acting with integrity to do the investigation into Gaza is impeccable. " When is the last time you saw a credible, impartial investigator hit the media circuit the way Goldstone did?

Finally something of some relevance came out of you. It turns out that you can ask questions that make sense not just make comments about long range Iranian knives. It is not so difficult to make sure that materials let through are used to restore the mill and nothing else so I also wonder why not?

"If Israel has not committed any war crimes, if the IDF has a perfectly good conscience, then what do you have to fear?" How would you like to be arrested and subject to trial for a crime you didn't commit? " The more rage you demonstrate fighting the report, the more guilty you appear." Let me guess. If someone is innocent, and continues demonstrating their innocence, they are really guilty. If someone is guilty and doesn't fight against the allegations, he is innocent? Dummy.

For many years Hamas has fired thousands of rockets to Israel. So the war,they wanted it ,they got it. Any comment against Israel,to go with the wind.

""the unexploded bomb proves what exactly?" - Jo It proves that the IDF refutation is wrong and the Goldstone Report was right. " It could also prove that the bomb was placed there. It could also prove that it was a misfire. It could also prove that, since it is a remnant, it fragmented in flight and that fragment went astray. It proves you're an idiot who reflexively thinks the only possibility (out of several possibilities) is the one which puts Israel in the worst light.

I think a one ton bomb being dropped from the air is not hard to distinguish. The effects are quite different than that of a tank shell or bullets. Therefore based on evidence gathered and from the shape of the building it does not appear to have been bombed from the air. Now if you want to believe the Guardian then be my guest. Their record along with the UN's on Israel leads one to be a bit skeptical and as best dismissive of their motives. Again regardless of the "accounts" on the ground and who saw what when and where. If there is no evidence to support that a bomb destroyed the mill factory then the point is mute. The onus is on the UN to provide "factua" evidence of this. Their claim has been refuted. Move on to the next set of "allegations". This beginning to sound like the Jenin massacre of 2002. Lot of hysteria and talk but when calm prevailed and the facts came out there was no massacre. Lies upon lies. This is the tactic the Palestinians with the aid of the UN has enacted

"A decision to bomb a flour mill and a sewage plant would have been taken at the highest level, way above pilots and squadron leaders." Then again, an air strike can be called on the spot to cover troops, blithering one.

"Whatever we did to that flour-mill was diabolical.... the petty, incomplete and inexact explanations shame us even more... where was the proportionality?..." Taking out snipers is diabolical? Where is your brain?

Based on this talkback it appears there is sufficient evidence to support a blistering retort from the IDF. Should this be the case I would strongly suggest it be forthcoming very soon.

I love the armchair military investigators who write in their conclusions based on a newspaper article and think they have their "AHA moment." Did you actually read the Goldstone Report? The summary at least? Goldstone's qualifications and history of acting with integrity to do the investigation into Gaza is impeccable. He also is an unabashed supporter of Israel. That's why he was chosen to do the U.N. investigation BECAUSE ISRAEL REFUSED TO DO THEIR OWN INVESTIGATION. PERIOD. Why refuse if there was nothing to hide? Goldstone's report was even-handed and consistent with the findings of human rights organizations such as B'Tselem and Human Rights Watch. And the results of all of these investigations is consistent with the stories told by IDF soldiers themselves through Breaking the Silence. And how about the 1400 dead? Majority civilians? 400+ children? The continued siege? What more proof is needed of Israel's complete disregard of human rights and international law?

The is continuing evidence for years that palestinians fabricate evidence including videos(witnesess mohamad al doura case). It is also well known that most un workers in gaza are palestinian. Remains of a bomb are easily planted. Those who fire from cvilian areas intentionally to have them killed by return fire would easily plant evidenmce and plan fom before.

After 20 years of service I do know a thing or two about fuses. Never heard of one with that designation. Also it was found on the roof was it. Then it most certainly didn't come from a bomb that hit the factory. That would have been found on the ground. The fact is the Guardian has lied so often that they could be a branch of Pallywood

So it was the mine found by the UN action team or the Guardian? And if it was The Guardian, I thought international media had been banned from Gaza by Israel? Must be they made an exception for The Guardian... Or wait, was it the UN team that reported it? And I wonder who makes up this "UN" team... I assume it is not exclusively Palestinian, right?

In another story in Haaretz today there is a report on Dr Mengeles writings being up for auction. In it he says that 90% of all people will die of stupidity. He was wrong. Those 90% will continue to post their same old same old to the Haaretz Talkback. What would happen to the Haaretz readership if Lincoln, Lahbras, Roo, Linthwaite, Silver and other assorted "usefull idiots" actually had a life beyond thier constant never ending anti semetic ramblings. Enough.

Quote "Just wondering - is anything the IDF do OK with you?" Especially when IDF refuse to obey to a non obvious and/or a manifestly illegal order .

It doesn't matter anymore. The train has departed from a station called Lies. It's on his way to his final destination Truth. The truth is the truth. War crimes are war crimes. If they're committed, they're committed. And the whole world except Israel knows they're committed. The IDF knows it also. They found people under the collapsed buildings in Haiti. Soon they will find the truth about their own war crimes in Gaza. The more they dig, the more the will find. Inevitable, whatever the people respond here.

"The most extreme anti Israel publication in the world ." Hahahahahahahahah. The Guardian is very similar to Haaretz. It's boradly critical of Israel's occupation, and sometimes publishes pieces by Palestnians, but it also seometimes publishes pieces by pro-Israel writers, like the current Israeli ambassador to the UK. Protocols of the Elders of Zion it ain't. And I;m sure you could find plenty more anti-Israel publications if you looked for a few momenst on the web. I somehow, fo i nstance, doubt that Ahmedinejad picks up the Guardian, reads a piece there on Israel and excalims in disgust 'Now that's just going TOO far!.'

You do understand that Goldstone led a committee of inquiry and not a court sitting in judgement don't yoo? So he and his team had to assess on the basis of corroborated and verifiable evidence whether any crimes may have been committed. He did not have to provide as in a court of law 'forensic' evidence to back up every claim and thus prove beyond doubt the criminal act, nor was he equipped to. The forensics were a bonus and happen to support the 'multiple' source description of events as garnered by the Mission. Objectivity is clearly not on your agenda-is it?

"It proves the bomb did not explode" The fact (?) that an unexploded Mk. 82 "dumb bomb" in the mill had to be defused by a UN bomb squad proves that the bomb was not what destroyed the mill, obviously. More importantly, it contradicts the Goldstone claim that a "precision munition" was intentionally targeted to the mill. It establishes at most that a stray bomb lacking a functioning targetting system fell on the roof of the mill but did not penetrate, probably by hitting something else first, ricocheting hard enough to break in half, which piece landed on the roof after a hard bounce. Hardly "precision targeting"! It was collateral damage, at most. Goldstone's "precision targeting" claim establishes his bias, dishonesty and incompetence as an "investigator". Further proof of Goldstone's lies - that the mill was essential to Gaza civilian sustence to begin with - most wheat products by far that feed Gaza come from already milled flour in aid shipments that were on going at the time.

"The bomb did not explode Marek". Neither did it damage the roof, according to photographs. Nobody was killed either. Yet the mill is said to be in ruins and this is a war crime.

Roo- you can try and spin it as much as you want however the fact is Goldstone derived his assumption of a bomb hitting a flour mill based on an "account". There is no forensic evidence to support this just claims made by people on the ground. Again you have clearly taken the side of the UN and what they say is gold. Objectivity and facts are evidently not important to them or to you.

It's such a shame when a country that so many of us identify with intellectually and culturally becomes "overwrought" in its reactions and falls back on lies or subterfuge to disguise what it did. I'm certain that Israel is fast losing it's fans in the U.S. There's an impatience with its actions and the monetary and military support Israel receives. The outcomes is increasinly evident...and might reach the point that Americans wouldn't mind if Israel simply ceased to exist and the hope that might lessen our visibility in the Mideast. That would be a shame...but it's slowly happening and hard to reverse.

Jim can`t read,but then he`s an ideologue. The UN team found TWO parts of the US Mk 82 bomb, the front part with detonator was on the first floor, the REMAINDER of the same bomb was found on an upper floor. Funny, but I was reprimanded that the "first" floor WAS an"upper" floor. The unexploded part of the bomb, according to the Haaretz article, was found in a scorched zone near ruined machinery. Nothing in the Haaretz article states how the fire was set, or how the machinery was damaged, if the bomb didn't explode, or the status of the rear half of the bomb, or what happened to the supposed shrapnel, nor did even you claim that a precision bomb guidance system was found--remember that Goldstone accused Israel of making a PRECISION strike, and no one has supplied any evidence that does not itself raise more questions than it answers.

because if they do they explode! the blast from an aerial bomb goes upwards and the flour mill would have been spread all over gaza ? this report is the usual pallywood crap planted for defamation !

The unexploded bomb supports Goldstone's findings. The account you say he just "heard" was accurate, it now seems. "The flour mill was hit by a series of air strikes on 9 January 2009, after several false warnings had been issued on previous days." p21 Not just based on an "account" he heard" as you trivialise in your post. "Al-Bader Flour Mills Co. (see chap. XIII) received two recorded messages indicating the mill was to be destroyed, but neither of these was acted upon. Five days later the mill was struck in the early hours of the morning with no warning whatsoever. The owners of the business and their staff suffered anxiety by having to evacuate the premises on two occasions as a result of receiving such messages when no strikes took place." p125 Furthermore: "It [the Mission] met and interviewed the Hamada brothers, joint owners of the el-Bader flour mill, on FOUR occasions. It spoke with representatives of the business community about the context and consequences of the strike on the flour mill. Mr. Hamada also testified at the public hearings in Gaza. The Mission also addressed questions to the Government of Israel with regard to the military advantage pursued in attacking the el-Bader flour mill, but received no reply." p199 Read the report Yariv before you condemn it. Or else you might be the one having trouble looking in the mirror.

They did it in Jenin (calling it "a massacre") and in innumerable other situations. Let's wait until all of the evidence is in first. You guys are just jumping at the bit to attack Israel at every turn.

Title: JimUSA Any floor above ground floor is an upper floor Name: CJ City: Sydney State: Australia That's just silly. Is the hundredth floor of the Empire State Building a "lower" floor simply because it is not literally the highest, or an "upper" floor because it is above most of the rest of the building? That's what I mean when I say this issue of the "upper/lower" floors is not settled.

Despite being assailed as a liar...excoriated as a self-hating Jew...it becomes more and more clear that Goldstone was correct when he determined that BOTH SIDES committed those "grave breaches" of the Geneva Convention. The spin doctors can (and will) continue to point out the faults of the other side in an attempt to mask their own actions. The Middle East is like a glass house wherein everyone is throwing stones.

Jim can't read,but then he's an ideologue. The UN team found TWO parts of the US Mk 82 bomb, the front part with detonator was on the first floor, the REMAINDER of the same bomb was found on an upper floor. The Guardian newspaper has photos of both bomb parts. Sorry, Jimmy, you lost this one.

Even if the mill was to work full capacity 24/7 year round , no day off . If it wasn't for IDF allowing the transfer of tons of grains to the mill , The mill owner would have to pay and smuggle it thru the tunnels by Egypt led Hamastan Blockade. Ask the dead Egyptian soldier during the U.S. Jihad Gang (code red on) Code Pink riots, or just visit the related Haaretz report by A.Hass. The night time counter shooting was "reactional and precise" to eliminate the threats and fire by the Belligerant Arabs Occupiers Terrorists who used the only Gaza civilian building producing flour to draw IDF counter fire . Before , during and after the operation , the IDF carried out transfer of huge quantity of goods for the purpose of helping the sustenance of the "civilian population " , which The Belligerant Arabs Occuppiers Terrorists denied to their humans shields . They were caught stealing it , even Ban Ki Moon had to intervene . The Belligerant Arabs Occuppiers Terrorists denied to their humans shields access to the IDF Int'l high standard field hospital .

Just wondering - is anything the IDF do OK with you?

War is a mess! you cannot conduct a military operation without damaging the enemy. yes Israel destroyed the mill that can happen in a war zone. but, and that's a big but... Unlike Hamas, Israel is an humanitarian country with a responsibility for human life therefor it transfer food and medical supply to Gaze on a weekly basis. It is not a black & white story.

" What the article doesn`t make clear (but hints at in the last paragraph) is that the bomb didn`t explode. Hence it was made safe & removed. So bomb fragments were not found all over the building and there was not an explosion consistant with an aircraft bomb. Would you really know what sort of bomb it was if it had exploded?" If the bomb didn't explode, and "finding"it wasn't a hoax, what happened to the other half? If the bomb didn't explode, it couldn't have caused most of the mill's interior damage, and was hence not a war crime. BTW--I am a Navy veteran and have seen the effects of bomb blasts plenty of times. If even half the bomb had exploded, there would have been shrapnel all over the place, and the fact that there wasn't means that a bomb blast didn't happen. British Col. Kemp warned that Hamas was adept at staging public relations incidents-red meat to throw to the "true believer"anti-Zionists, of whom many are right here.

American weapons. American money. American full backing. What does israel want more?

"Goldstone used the account of the air strike as a sign that Israel's attack on the mill was not mere collateral damage, but precisely targeted and a possible war crime". So basically what this tells us Goldstone based his "opinion" on an "account" he heard. Again forensic evidence no bomb shrapnel just an "account". Its hard to fathom how such a one sided investigation can be legitimized and considered and great investigation based on unsubtantiated "accounts". I guess when the real aim is to deligimitize a nation ( Israel) then facts and morality go out the door. How this little man can look at himself in the mirror is a disgrace. And to those on here that simply lap up the UN findings as factual and legitimate are just as culpable as Goldstone and the UN for spreading false and malicious propaganda.

... not whether the bomb exploded or caused damage, but the fact that Israel had said the flour mill had NOT been targeted by aircraft. That is the lie, not how the building did come to be damaged in the end. And if it had been targeted with a bomb, it was probably not collateral damage by other means.

Israel has become a bully, a nation of planes, tanks, & nuclear weapons that reacts to provocations by the Palestinians with an anvil and tries to paint themselves as the victims. This is not the light unto nations it once was, and Israel is losing its soul by allowing extremist settlers and religious groups to rule.

If Israel has not committed any war crimes, if the IDF has a perfectly good conscience, then what do you have to fear? The more rage you demonstrate fighting the report, the more guilty you appear. Make an inquiry into the charges and prove to the international community that they are wrong. This is the only way you will convince the world. Not by lobbying against Goldstone

The most extreme anti Israel publication in the world . The bomb fragments , if there were any , could be the job of the prominent Palywood production . Many discredited productions in the past came from there .

Videos, photos and testimonies confirm the excesses of the IDF. Goldstone gave Israel an opportunity to disprove the allegations, and Israel has failed.

palestenians wish they have that kind of bomb. Lol. you are almost funny.

Jim, Shows how ignorant are you about the world. Like most American rightwingrs. In a good part of the world First floor is the upper floor, Groung floor being the lowest floor. Get some education and know the world. Come out of US countryside and broaden your knowledge base or else keep away from Talktack.

i can not trust un

What the article doesn't make clear (but hints at in the last paragraph) is that the bomb didn't explode. Hence it was made safe & removed. So bomb fragments were not found all over the building and there was not an explosion consistant with an aircraft bomb. Would you really know what sort of bomb it was if it had exploded?

Some of you had a good time over the issue of numbering floors. While I don't regard it as settled, I note that for all the blather, no one is addressing the more substantive issues I raised. Here they are again: "...that the UN accused Hamas during Cast Lead(and Hamas admitted)of appropriating ordnance that the UN had disarmed. Is it reasonable that the forward(fused)half a bomb didn`t explode but was found more or less intact, while the unfused rear of the bomb did explode and disintegrated with such force that the investigators did not claim to have found any part of it in the confined factory space? As people who presumably value their credibility, do you really want to make that claim? If so, explain how that "happened", except as a hoax. Note further that, while Israel was accused of a "Precision" strike, no one is claiming that a precision guidance system was found with the more-or-less intact forward half of the bomb. Hence, no "precision" strike. Wake up."

Check out Goldstone's background and you won't believe anything he says.

"So where was the "bomb" found? "First floor" or "upper floor"?" the first floor is above the ground floor " And what does this do to the credibility of Israel`s critics? " Nothing... "Have a nice day" OK.. U2

Geez Chris talk about sugar coating the british occupation of N. Ireland. If one were stupid and naive such as yourself one would the think the British army are boyscouts and saints. How about you ask the average Catholic of Northern Ireland how the saintly British Army treated them. Im sure the rosy picture you write was not reality. Oh but again Chris you are one who does not investigate or read facts you simply take snippets and comments from those who suit your agenda.

some journalist or making some documentary-movie . his family sued the IDF in spite of the evidences against the arabs . A U.K. media claimed that IDF changed the barel , such claim were proven false , and the U.K. media come back again later and said the IDF changed other parts of the rifle and again such claim were proven to be false . Now a U.K media claim found some thing "days after the war" . IDF was right not to let the medias cross into Gaza during the operation . By the time the medias petitioned the High Court , many 'felt the bite freeze' , the operation was over .

No need for name calling, but bomb fragments would be found throughout the building. Ground floor, second floor, all over.

following the potato famine and the corn laws to begin our lecture ! get afull report of the " troubles " and the black and tans before your unctuous retorts to posers ! if it had been left to the b specials in ulster and not the appeasers in westminster the story would have been very different !!

tampering.

very curious mr lincoln? unexploded bomb act like a boring entity and go much further than the place of impact? the bomb ought to have been placed on the ground floor to look genuine . usually if they hit open ground they are found around 8-12 metres below ground .

Even if the UN did find remnants of a bomb it really proves nothing. Such bomb fragments exist and could have been taken from an alternate site by Hamas or the UN and placed in the flour mill to make the case. Since when is the UN credible?

The bomb was planted . The Guardian claim of 'days after the war" and the UN team mine action find on Jan.25-09 and removal on 11 February-09 are no challenge to the evidence of the Israeli report about the mill on 9,10 and 11 January 2009 . such Guardian claims are nowhere to be found on such dates or "days after the war" in the web or the net ..., And a web search about other medias or organisations reporting such Guardian claims on such dates or "days after the war" reveal zero find .

who said, moslems/islam said,Israel said, Goldstone said, Al-Jazeera said, Haaretz said, talkbackers said.... No more saying, world wants real proof, pictures, videos, timelines ect...ect... not anymore of this biased BS!

I hear of no evidence. I hear of no pictures. Where's the beef? seems to me, if they were confident, totally confident, they would have supported claims with proof, not some flimsy hamas proffered crap. come on lincoln, stop frothing at the mouth... you never struck me as unintelligent..only biased...but surely you can admit that in light of the FACT that this is heresay, and that he UN is a highly biased group against anything israel, it should be a red flag on this one... none the less, I am of the opinion, personally, that since no one was killed, and since this is a war, then the flour mill should have been targeted and taken down. Is this a siege or not? is this a war or not? why would anyone cry for these savages...besides, they can bring in food through their tunnels instead of mortars and detonators and rockets...seems to me hamas is the real culprit.

I am not aware of the british Government sealing off Nortern Ireland depriving the population of fuel, food and medecines. Before we meticuolously destroyed,, sewage plants, power stations hospitals and schools houses with or without civilians in them, using the most sophisticated weapons in our arsenal. Before destroying the abolity to produce food, and for a finishing touch destroying the ability of the indigenous popuation to repair the damage caused by a rampaging army with instructions to shoot anything that moves. Or is how the UK handled the IRA different?

... did some nitty-gritty appear about real events... and then today even that seems partly fictional... it's not just the unfamiliar legalese that disappoints...

launch a "Cast Lead" after years of Ira bombings or did the Rep of Ireland after the same from the UVF/UDR in Dublin and the south. "1no rocket fired into a civilian town is good enough reason to deal with the criminal hamas lunatics. any other country would not have waited so long to deal with the threat to its civilians."rich Why dont you stop making a twit of yourself and get the facts straight ---did not your british education teach you anything or did you spend your time gazing out the window dreaming of Israel.

You are indulging in the logical fallacy known as 'poisoning the well'. Having dismissed the report because it emanates from the Guardian you now have the task of dismissing the findings of the 'UN mine action team'. Enjoy.

Did they find the other part of the bomb? i am not an expert on bombs.

First some here have immediately jumped on this and said we can't believe another word Israel says. That's fine as long as you apply the same standards to Hamas! Which recently stated they were NOT targeting civilians. How many here believe that to be true? If not then you must discount all Hamas sourced information. Second, the team arrived "days" after the building was hit, anything could have been planted by the Pals. Pictures of the bomb in the location it was found would have been helpful to determine if it was planted or not. Third, nobody was killed. It seems in a war if you cut off the food supply you weaken the enemy. So I wonder why it's a war crime? The terrorists eat the same food(as civilians)probably from the same mill as the population. I don't see how you prove it was a pre-planned target(on the target list before the war), and not added during the war? When commanders in the field decided it should be added to the target list.

1no rocket fired into a civilian town is good enough reason to deal with the criminal hamas lunatics. any other country would not have waited so long to deal with the threat to its civilians.

"Bomb that hits the target ,but cannot destroy upper floor?" - Marek "Item located was the front half of a Mk82 aircraft bomb with 273M fuse," - UN UXB report The bomb did not explode Marek.

"the unexploded bomb proves what exactly?" - Jo It proves that the IDF refutation is wrong and the Goldstone Report was right.

"The remains of the bomb were found on an upper floor in a narrow walkway between burnt-out machinery and an outside wall." The bomb was made safe by a technical field manager and removed" I bet this special bomb did not even make a hole in the roof? Interesting war crime.

So I'm sure Hamas would be quite prepared to fix that in return for Israel fixing all the damage it did in Gaza - not just in Cast Lead, the many, many times before that. Hundreds killed each time and not a word about it, but we keep hearing about these 8,000 rockets which killed an average of one person a year and which Hamas stopped firing before Cast Lead but Israel then broke the ceasefire because they needed a pretext to launch a big attack.

.."what appeared to be the remains of an aircraft-dropped bomb." Well this statements tells us. It "appears" the remains are from a bomb but can't determine it was. Yet Goldstone lies and states it "was" hit my a bomb. This clearly is just one example of Goldstone and the UN righting the report as they see fit. I would like to know how much it cost the UN to complete this charade of an investigation? Talk about pork barrel spending this a prime example. A three week operations to destroy a terror organization and the whole world is up in arms? Oh I forgot its jews defending themselves so their fair game as they are held to a higher standard than the goyim and arabs. Now I want to see the UN investigate the 50 yr conflict in China, or Chechnya, The Congo or Sri linka. These same countries China and Russia that are judging Israel are responsible for some of the most horrendous acts of deliberate murder. Yet their actions will never be investigated. Hypocrits of the worst kind.

is this a story? The war ended and a week later a bomb (unexploded) was found on site? So, it was not the bomb that bombed the place (look at the pictures , no aircraft bomb there) so where did this bomb come from? And, it was a flour mill for goodness sake, bombs do fly in war time and make mistakes, it happened in Iraq and is happening in Afghanistan. During the so call war there was a daily cease fire for humanitarian supplies of food, so what is the accusation here. Gaza does not starve nor did it then. This is a politically motivated story with no ethics. . Shame on the Guardian ( but what do you expect from the Guardian, who does not remember the abundant accusations and headlines stories not true pushed by said newspaper.

what count is "what" exploded this mill. as known tactic hamas already places "forbidden" bombshels from previous explosions in some hot places in the begin of the war.. just for public relations as the UN is intended to find profings of israels wrong in stead of what realy happend. it is like the known tactic to place children next to hotspots.

Why should this amaze anyone that al Guardian suddenly pulls new 'proof' out. This is why Israel's own commission investigating the Gaza war is pointless. al Guardian will accuse them of lying and suddenly crack open its heretofore never seen 'proof'.

The war ended on 18 January. The bomb was discovered on 25 January. How did it get there?

As part of a peace deal, it is a great suggestion. As a relief of "guilt," start with Hamas with their own people and the harm they have done and caused them.

... in order blame Israel afterwards. It's one tool in their "struggle by all means". No surprise at all that the Israel-bashers allow themselves to fall so easily into the "trap" without any critical attitude.

M:"Whether it was deliberately destroyed by a bomb or unintentionally by tank shells, it was destroyed by the IDF and it should not have been." Israel's contention is that it was a legitimate military target as Hamas were in the area. If Hamas don't want their schools, mosques and flour mills attacked they should make sure their militia keep well away from them.

Whether it was deliberately destroyed by a bomb or unintentionally by tank shells, it was destroyed by the IDF and it should not have been. Israel's preventing reconstruction of Gaza, but why don't they make an exception and set right some of the destruction they caused?

Then it probably was placed there . same as The Explosives-packed containers drifted onto S. Israeli beaches yesterday .

The report was bound to be full of legal jargon. The purpose of the report as I understand was mainly to explain why investigation by military tribunal (which reports to attourney general, rather than to the military) is sufficient to be independent. Whether you agree with that or not is your call. The doc then went to address some of the incidents investigated, but referred the reader to another (as yet unpublished) doc for full investigations. So I think it's absolutely inevitable that the doc will appear legalistic, and I think it's unfair to interpret this as deliberately muddying the issues. btw - credit to you for looking at the report. I can guarantee that most of the people posting on here have not

Quote " #9 are you an expert ? You talk like you`re an explosive expert. Maybe you did some training in the IOF about that." ------ Read the Israel Report about the mill , paragraph 170 Quote " Photographs of the mill following the incident do not show structural damage consistent with an air attack " Read and pay attention to the Israel Report about the mill starting page 40 paragraph 163 . And see the 3 photos and pay attention to the dates and times of each . The 3 photos show that the roof of the mill wasn't damage at all , has not even a scratch. you'll also see that the structures of all the widows of the north side of the mill are neither damaged and are just blackened by the smoke of the fire .

Neither the Guardian article nor the Haaretz article notes the provenance of the Mk82 bomb purportedly dropped on the flour mill in Gaza. According to Wikipedia, the Mk82 aircraft bomb is of American origin and is currently solely manufactured by General Dynamics in Garland, Texas.

An unexploded bomb can signify a malfunction, or even something else. Did the bomb FRAGMENT get there due to a precision strike? Or can there be other explanations? Stupid anti-Israelis are compelled to think the worst of Israel no matter what.

... had been plausible and exact... but it was so drowned in 'legaleze' and technicalities about how and by whom it was written, that new doubts are hardly a surprise...

"stupid discrepancy you idealogues didn`t notice" Stupid is the one who has no idea of different numbering styles of floors. British numbering is ground floor, first, second ...

The Guardian is a British newspaper and first floor in Britain means the first floor above ground level, in other words it is an upper floor.

Ever heard of the different effects of contact fuse and delayed action fuse?

Whenever I need to be amused, reading about the indignation from American and British talkbackers can always get a laugh. The Israelis dropped a bomb on a flour mill? Really? Did they do it? And that's a war crime, right? How does that compare to Little Boy, the atomic bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima and killed 100,000 immediately? That was the mother of all collateral damage and the grandmother of all war crimes. Or what about the carpet bombing of Dresden. I guess that was okay. I haven't heard any apologies or calls for reparation yet from Americans or British. So keep posting because sometimes when I get depressed at people's stupidity and self-righteous finger pointing, a good read of Haaretz talkback will bring laughter because of the concentrated doses of cynicism and hypocrisy.

"But the Guardian CLAIMS to have visited the mill days after the war last year, finding on the first floor of the building what APPEARED to be the remains of an aircraft-dropped bomb" ____ Quite a statement

... the petty, incomplete and inexact explanations shame us even more... where was the proportionality?...

Looks like Israel has this kind of bomb in their arsenal. This bomb is cheap and made in America. Can be fitted with fins that can be aimed. This means precision.

Like most of the posters here, I am no expert on the subject of bomb impact. However, I have read both reports (orginal & Israeli response), and the thing that strikes me is that while the mill is damaged, the Israeli air recon pictures (before and after) show that the structure of the building is intact and the roof remains in place. Would a 500pound bomb dropped from the air be consistent with this amount of damage is the question? People seem to want to fit things in (without looking at any of the evidence) with their own pre-prepared conclusion

Read the IDF report. It refutes Goldstone?s claim that the fighting at the flour mill was intended to deny food to the population, but instead was done to fight off Hamas stationed next to the flour mill who had already attacked IDF troops. When Goldstone said the mill had been bombed, the IDF said the visible damage didn?t match up ? and the Guardian report says the bomb found was unexploded. The IDF was also bringing IN flour to Gaza daily at three times the quantity produced by the mill, whilst civilians complained that Hamas was stealing it from the donor depots. The IDF also brought in firefighters when the mill was damaged. Just who is telling lies here?

and coupled with the idf's denial of another part of israel's response to the goldstone report... it's gonna be hard for israel to satisfy ANYONE with anything less than a comprehensive investigation by an independent committee. if bibi's smart, he'll be overriding barak and ashkenazi soon.

the IDF report is flawed, lieing does not get you anywhere, what goes around comes a around, history shows that, make peace with the world, then everybody can sleep in comfort

Of course those cunning Hamas propaganda masterminds must have sneaked into the mill during the "war" and threw the half exploded bomb in there for the UN investigators to find and make the Israelis look bad. That's clearly the only logical explanation.

that the UN accused Hamas during Cast Lead(and Hamas admitted)of appropriating ordnance that the UN had disarmed. Is it reasonable that the forward(fused)half a bomb didn't explode but was found more or less intact, while the unfused rear of the bomb did explode and disintegrated with such force that the investigators did not claim to have found any part of it in the confined factory space? As people who presumably value their credibility, do you really want to make that claim? If so, explain how that "happened", except as a hoax. Note further that, while Israel was accused of a "Precision" strike, no one is claiming that a precision guidance system was found with the more-or-less intact forward half of the bomb. Hence, no "precision" strike. Wake up.

You talk like you're an explosive expert. Maybe you did some training in the IOF about that. So what you're basically saying is that the UN lied about finding a aircraft bomb there. Yes I think you're right. The UN has a long record about lying to the entire world. Unlike the most moral army in the world, who never lied about anything. (did you also consider yourselves the most morale when you surrounded Sabra and Chatila and told the Phallange to go in?)

Minor point, JimUSA: in British English, the bottom floor is the "ground floor", and the "first floor" is the lowest of the upper floors. The Guardian account is consistent with the UN data, it just uses a UK idiom.

*GASP* What a surprise, Israel lied!

What in America is called the 'first floor' is called the 'ground floor' in Britain. The floor immediately above that is the 'first floor', what Americans would call the 'second floor'.

i've had a very close working relationship with mk-82's and their fuzes for over 20 yrs; and i've never heard of it.

What kind of desperate attempt was that? I'm sure if you read your comment again you will realise how wrong it is. The first floor is an upper floor. So there is nothing wrong with where they say they found the bomb. They don't contradict themselves. But thank for posting such a desperate arguement. It shows that you have been cornered.

UN, it will backfire big-style. A decision to bomb a flour mill and a sewage plant would have been taken at the highest level, way above pilots and squadron leaders. If the buildings were being used by Hamas fighters, there would be reconnaissance footage from aircraft, UAVs and ground forces to substantiate it. These operational decisions and evidence are all on file in the military these days due to the C3i systems used, where everything is recorded. it would not be possible to overlook them. It would of course be possible to surpress them in an internal, politically-led 'inquiry'. Israel is playing a dangerous game here. If it turns out to be lying about this incident, as seems to be demonstrably the case, then everything else in its report is rendered questionable and indeed dubious. There will have to be a full independent inquiry eventually, the dodgy tricks to avoid it are just storing up problems and proper justice at the Hague is looming ever closer.

Deliberate and premeditated just as were the attacks on water treatment facilities and agricultural areas.

Whats new about this?? They lied when they said the attack on the USS Liberty was a accident. Even in their white wash report they made the error of descriping the wrong side of the ship that they attacked. To many have given them a free pass for way to long. Israel wants to be a Western Nation but does not have a clue how to act like one.

There seems to be a lot of consistency in the actions: During the war the only operational mill in Gaza destroyed, after the war even the entry of pasta into the strip prohibited ("They deserve it, they voted Hamas").

The way the roof of the mill exploded is compatible with the pattern of an explosion caused by a tank shell . The way the roof of the mill exploded is not compatible with the pattern of an explosion caused by a aircraft-dropped bomb .

How many more international embarrassments does Israel need before it realises the only way out of this is to order and independent and credible investigation? The stupidest thing about Israel's behaviour this past year is that this fiasco could so easily have been averted if it would just co-operate and not accuse the entire world of anti-semitism.

"But the Guardian claims to have visited the mill days after the war last year, finding on the first floor of the building what appeared to be the remains of an aircraft-dropped bomb. "The UN mine action team said it identified an aircraft-dropped bomb at the mill on 25 January "The remains of the bomb were found on an upper floor in a narrow walkway..." So where was the "bomb" found? "First floor" or "upper floor"? And what does this do to the credibility of Israel's critics? Have a nice day.

Israel got caught pulling a fast one. Forget the white washing; just come clean. Justice is waiting at The Hague, and war crimes don't expire.

Does he have pictures or videos of them or of the mills? If he does, can he place the time of the event?

It's like the farce yesterday of whether the IDf was or was not admitting using WP in civilian areas, and had or had not reprimanded senior officers over the case. Now we have an independent UN team putting a large hole in the IDF's carefully constructed defence - almost as large a hole as that bomb would have made in Gaza's one flour mill. So now we'll have Israel's fans launching repeated precision strikes on the Guardian. However, ultimately, it becomes ever clearer evry day that the IDf investigation of itself is a farce and that a proper international war crimes investgation of Cast Lead is the only way of getting the truth and finding the guilty.

All the more reason for an independent investigation. Sealing off the borders and targetting the only functional flourmill. Nice going for the moral army.

Wonder what else the IDF may have left behind to contradict themselves? Why is the IDF afraid of Israeli civilians, most of whom who have served in the IDF, asking questions in a public inquiry? Are all Israeli civilians antisemites? It is just possible that the battle plan, based on the US failed operation Fallujah I, was just a bad battle plan. Fallujah I didn't work and had to be done over; hence Fallujah II. The US Marines concluded that before Fallujah II, and published their own lessons learned online. And that was published well before Cast lead I.

Well, that's Israels response shot to ribbons. How can anyone believe another word in their account!