Report: Interim findings of war won't deal with personal failures

As it backs the original claim that Hizbollah shelled Shlomi - which you denied - and which is a civilian town not an "IDF position". As for updating their story, maybe they are fleshing it out as time goes on? As for the bomblets - assuming a failure rate of 40% - Dalia Farran is going to have to up the pace quite significantly to meet that estimate. I guess we'll all know in a few months. I wonder if they fail to find that number whether it will get the same coverage. Want to take bets on no?

SORRY

WHAT!? DIDN'T YOU KNOW? WE ABDUCTED THE SOLDIERS DRESSED AS SLIME HEZZBOLLAH CREEPS AND ARE HOLDING THE SOLDIERS IN MAUI IN AN OASIS UNTIL THE WHOLE THING BLOWS OVER HEY MAN SMOKE ANOTHER JOINT AND GET A REALITY CHECK i MEANT A WELFARE CHECK

Your calculator being pounded furiously again, I see, Danny. Covering fire was needed in case the operation took longer that planned - which was the lesson learnt the *previous* time, when an IDF reaction force intervened and killed the Hezbollah ambushers. "six sentences later the UNIFIL report you quote says explicitly Israeli towns were targeted" - Yes, later the IDF artillery furiously pounded the length of the Blue Line, and Hezbollah responded along the entire length of the border. Your point being? "I am sure will surprise no one that it is not even close to what Johnboy claims." I'm sure you also understand that Haaretz rewrites it's articles as it goes (the censor at work, perhaps?). The ORIGINAL is reproduced here: http://www.spme.net/cgi-bin/articles.cgi?ID=804 P.S. Danny, put away your calculator and contact MACCSL directly - I did, and got thru to Dalia Farran. The reply? YES, their running totals still predict that there are around 1 million unexploded bomblets.

israel has almost 10,000 detainees, 10,000, what an astounding number, you have jails that must be the size of 10 football fields, amazing. these detainees DO comprise of pal's and lebanese, and prior to 12th of july 2006, again, amazing, thats what 9 months ago, quite a small percantage as opposed to how many years?

prior to 12th July 2006? Because we can list several attempts to kidnap Israelis - the last being in May 2006 - after "Olmert planned the war".

as on another column on haaretz which has revealed that this was planned way before by olmert, I TOLD YOU SO, the jews kidnap lebanese and pal's so the pal's and hezbollah kidnap jews in return, this has been happening for a long time and was not set off by the latest hezbollah kidnapping but a well rehearsed bombing by olmert prior to the kidnapping, idiots still presume that the war was because of this even though this has been going on for years and no problems before.

pablo, let me tell you abit about tactics, syria did not attack israel even though it killed a few of it's citizens in an orchard bombing, why? i won't tell you, but i will tell you there was a damned good reason for this, and i know it. as i have said before your days are numbered, in the near future you will be attacked from all sides, i have been right before and posted a few "I TOLD YOU SO" so take heed, i have always said also pablo, that israel still has time before the attack on iran is made to make this right, i have also said i don not want to see israel wiped off but i want to see israel make real peace with syria, lebanon and the palestinians as they did with egypt and jordan, a warning, the syrians unlike egypt and jordan will NOT give up it's land, patience is a virtue and your messiah will not come to help, take it from an athiest.

argument. The coast is over 10 miles away from where the operation was carried out. Operation was less than 10 mins long. That would suggest that the troops would have had to travel at over 60mph to get there in time to interfere or more than the maximum speed of Israeli tanks and apcs and nearly the top speed of humvees. Now I don't know what army you served in, but when we gave "covering fire" we didn't usually do to people miles away from where the battle was going on. And of course, six sentences later the UNIFIL report you quote says explicitly Israeli towns were targeted. and if anyone is interested in what Ha'aretz actually said: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=737825 I am sure will surprise no one that it is not even close to what Johnboy claims. PS MACCSL reports 847 cluster bomb strikes, with only 9 months until they CLEAR South Lebanon of bomblets, they are still less than half way to there being the number claimed.....

Pity it's wrong. Danny simply decides that: "Hizbollah rockets a village, IDF patrol investigates the spot where the rockets are coming from, they ambush it" Nope. The partol was routine - which is why the ambushers knew it was coming, and knew they would catch it by surprise. The rocket attacks on the IDF garrison forces are pointless if they allow a patrol to go out and investigate them - the entire point of covering fire is to keep the opposition forces pinned down and unable to intervene while they ambush the patrol. You have it backwards, Danny. But, hey, it makes a good story, doesn't it?

"What makes his claims more relicable thatn mine - surely not his verbosity?" No, I think it has something to do with his habit of quoting a source to back up his claim. You, on the other hand, simply repeat - over and over - something that you have heard somewhere that you happen to believe. It is like a religious belief; evidence is not just optional, it is quite unnecessary and totally uncalled-for. And evidence to the contrary? Just attack the messenger and then ignore the evidence. Typical.

The UN report says "(IDF) positions near the coast and in the area of the Israeli town of Zarit" Haaretz also reported on very the day of the incident (before the propaganda kicked in, obviously); "Two Israelis were wounded when gunmen in Lebanon began pounding the IDF`s Zarit position and other posts along the border before 9 A.M." Soooo, "the IDF`s Zarit position". You were saying, Danny? Zarit is a town. It is near the border. The IDF garrisons troops near the border. Where DO you think they garrison their troops? They ship 'em up from Tel Aviv every morning, do they?

"Israel planned an attack on Lebanon again and used the lives of two young men as an excuse - I have been saying that for many months now since it became clear that the IDF knew they would be taken and didn`t stop it." I would say the the abdustion of these fine young men, the murder of three others and the indiscriminate shelling of civilians in three border towns is a good reason for attacking back, and not simply an exuse. So now you are saying that if the IDF "knew" then it is therefore its fault for not stopping it. That rather like blaming the rape victim, isn't it?

Most (beside three including Kuntar) were exchanged in 2004 for the bodies of 3 Israeli soldiers abducted 3 years previously by Hizbolla terrorists (using UN marked vehicles). Nassrallah's declared mission on 12 July was to abduct soldiers to bargain for Kuntar's release. There are far more Lebanese prisoners in Syrian jails - why didn't he go for them?

sense than you; retired with money, Jews living among Arabs, Muslims, Catholics, Mexicans and everybody else not giving one whit about the BS you are talking about AND they have MONEY! As a Haaretz article pointed out, there are lotsa Jews here in Nevada but they deal not with any BS and are never protesting and causing a problem because they know the real deal mate. Some jewish doctors here are married to muslims. That is the way the world should be instead of being indoctrinated with lies and BS, which is why you are in Canada. Why don't you answer a few of the posters posting legitimate questions, etc or are you obsessed with BS; it appears so. Regards.

claims or corroborates. He has said many an ourtrageous think on these forums. What makes his claims more relicable thatn mine - surely not his verbosity? Why don't you google Zarit and Shlomi - they're civilian border towns.

The answer is yes.

More important posts on other blogs yesterday interest me today, so I won't post anything to make you gnaw on me all day. I haven't read any of your posts today, but I am sure there are some. I have not one hateful bone in my body mate!! Keep on blogging. Regards.

This is Haaretz and deals with zionism and a stupid war where you got your arse kicked. Those guys you named, more US pimps, unfortunately, they come in ALL colors, yessiree, they do, cause US doesn't discriminate when it comes to our pimps. So what your point? Who is Hersh, a well respected Jewish investigative journalist, now spin that, who BTW has a history of and in this case told the absolute truth last summer, now confirmed by Olmert. Sorry about that mate!!! Just shows you guys on the front line are the last to know about BS you think you know. Regards.

Work every day cause I have to make sure Paul Harris gets his monthly welfare check. What is your arse doing in Canada, a peaceful no BS country who takes in EVERYBODY. You should be in Israel on the front lines. Since you are not, what is YOUR obsession with Israel? Canada doesn't have troops in Iraq, we do, and Canada doesn't support the zionists with billions, which we do. I have more right to speak on the BS than you do cause you are a CHICKENHAWK, otherwise you would have your arse over there supporting the madness you espouse. Go address some of the issues of the posters, you might learn something and never mind being obsessed with me; Paul Harris has that sewn up. Idiot.

Now that Olmert has omitted his failure publically, how do we get rid of him and his team?

article on this thread and the story Seymour Hersh wrote in the New Yorker coincide EXACTLY. No matter how you wanna spin it, a plain reading of Olmert's testimony to the committe, if you take him at his word as laid out here, coincides EXACTLY with what Hersh wrote LAST summer while the war was going on. Take it or leave it alone. I guess Hersh is a soothsayer, but what about Olmert, is he a liar about what went on. The story existed; Olmert says the same thing a year later. Those are the facts; what you wanna make of those facts is up to the readers of Haaretz/New Yorker Magazine. Regards.

Hizbollah rockets a village, IDF patrol investigates the spot where the rockets are coming from, they ambush it. And that's without my "thinking cap". As for not wanting to kill civilians for fun, if you read the report you'll see they tried repeatedly over the previous year, now known to coincide with other attempts at kidnap. This one just happened to be successful.

Johnboy claims that the UNIFIL report says only IDF positions were targeted and provides a partial quote. Here is the full quote : "The crisis started when, around 9 a.m. local time, Hizbollah launched several rockets froin Lebanese territory across the withdrawal line (the so-called Blue Line) towards Israel Defense Forces (IDF) positions near the coast and IN THE AREA OF THE ISRAELI TOWN OF ZARIT." In the line after his next quote: "Hizbollah targeted IDF positions AND ISRAELI TOWNS south of the Blue Line." Seems pretty clear to me.

Siniora should really complain to Hezbollah, Iran and Syria about their continued importation of arms & munitions, forcing them to cease their preparations for their next act of war. the IAF is being prudent in monitoring the situation, unwilling to be recipients of another sneak attack. You never did send the links for all the fake statistics you tried to foist off on innocent readers. I've not forgotten your Aussie Muslim Rape Gangs, or the miserable status of your Aboriginies. Needless to say, the slaughter of 200,000 Christian East Timoran's by Muslim Indoncesian's still comes to mind.

Jeff As you say,if Hezbollah "won" then we can call it a "Pyrrhic" victory and they will think twice before they embark on such a suicidal adventure. I will paraphrase Yonatan Netser here,and hope he doesn't mind my repeating it He said,and I quote: "MAY SUCH VICTORY ALWAYS HAPPEN TO THE ARABS" THAT SAYS IT ALL

"July 12, 2006, Hezbollah began mortar and Katyusha rocket fire on Israeli towns near the moshav of Zarit" This has already been covered, Zelkha. The Katyusha's were fired at IDF positions adjacent to Zarit. Or don't you believe that the IDF has troops garrisoned near the border? The rocket fire was meant to prevent those IDF troops from interferring with the planned ambush. It was a well-planned ambush, Zelkha - nobody denies that - so which do *you* think hezbollah choose to do: (a) blast away at civilians in Zarit because, hey, it's good for a laugh. or (b) blast away at IDF positions near Zarit because that will prevent them from interferring. Your starter for $20, Zelkha.

I suspect you are the only person on this planet who does not know the answer, considering that Nasrallah said *before* that he planned to capture some soldiers for a prison swap, said so as the soldiers were being captured, and said so immediately after and all the way through that war and beyond. But it just never got through to you, did it?

"You cannot re-interpret the UN Charter to suit your purposes. Israel was attacked on her soil, an act of war under any interpretations" You are completely wrong. The reason for going to war is to be found in Article 51. Go look it up; there is no mention of "an act of war". It has to be an "armed attack against a nation", and a cross-border incursion does not qualify. It is not enough to justify going to war, because that cross-border incursion does not signify that Hezbollah are going to war on YOU. You have to remember, in the post-ww2 era there are no "just" wars. There is only self-defence. And a war of self-defence means that the other side has gone to war on YOU. bin Laden did that to America on 9/11, but Nasarallah did not do that to Israel when those two soldiers were captured; as he himself said and as everyone readily accepts - even the Israelis.

"THE ARABS STARTED THIS." Started WHAT??? They provoked Israel. They killed some soldiers. They captured two more. That deserves a response from Israel. NOBODY would begrudge Israel from smacking down hard on Hezbollah - ambushing a few Hezbollah patrols, then wiping out the Hezbollah soldiers that come to their aid, THEN wiping out the Hezbollah soldiers that came to pick up the bodies. SURE. Nobody - not even Kofi Annan - would have complained. But Israel went too far - way, way too far. Hezbollah provoked Israel with a border incident, and Israel responded by going to war. Israel started the war. Hezbollah didn't - they launched a cross-border raid that caught the IDF with their pants around their ankles. Israel responded by going APE-SHIT in a way that they had no earthly reason to, and they did that under those circumstances because they had been looking for an excuse to do exactly that for months. THAT'S WHAT THIS ARTICLE IS SAYING.

Love your children,committ to a safer brighter future for them and act to facilitate this path. If you put your trust into easy and quick cures or cheap miracles, surrender to a charismatic leader-history teaches us- that such leaders almost always lead their followers into disasters.

Regards.

Having looked at dozens of erudite posts, many very cleverly dissecting the various political and conspiratorial scenarios...the bottom line remains the same. Lebanon declared war on its neighbour state about 60-years ago.Governments come and go.Sub governments come and go.Factional groups of every color of the rainbow come and go. Yet Lebanon is unwilling/unable(too fearful)to extricate itself from the State of War. Everything -tragically for its citizens-flows from this. Untangling this will take a vision of extraordinary courage. An emergence of individual(s) who will refuse to pass this curse onto future generations.

I was reading you two with increasing revulsion. Johnboy of Sydney I am not surprised. A strong community of Arabs - many good, some total gangsters. The best Egyptology school in the world! Beautiful Cronulla Beach has become unsafe. Johnboy is obviously an educated super-antisemite. But Tosefta? Anyway, this whole discussion about the beauty of Hezballah's thugs in the haven of weak but beautiful Lebanon is disgusting. I admit that Arabs in general, Shias in particular, may at some future date destroy the whole world (when they will acquire nuclear weapons carried in briefcases). Themselves first, of course, but a few will always remain to finish the job. Destruction (martyrdom) is their highest earthy accomplishment. Until then however, we will do our best, while continuing construction for a better life, to prevent that, including handling this aggressive dreck of Hezballah!

We hate hamas

WELL TOSEFTA THE MORAL OF THE STORY IS DONT ATTACK A COUNTRY,MILITARY OR CIVILIANS!!!OTHERWISE YOU ARE INVITING TROUBLE,YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT BY NOW!!!

we love nasralla Nasralla for president Nasralla for king Nasralla for prime minister

tamir gaza said that lebanese people hate nasrallah and they don't want. but i wanna ask a question how did he know that?? how could he say that lebanese people hate nasrallah, he predicts??? i don't think so, if i wanna say what i know, i know that lebanese people not all of them, but the majorty think that he's a real leader, and he's the only one who can protect lebanon, and he just make the lebanese people feel safe, what about olmert does he do the same thing???

You really do not get it.One last try THE ARABS STARTED THIS. They got away with the last kidnap murder with help from the lying cowards of the UN. Diplomatic pressure achieved nothing just 4 Israeli corpses. I do not want anybody Hit regularly or at all that is your nonsense. The Arabs got away with it the first time You want Israel to use the Marquess of Queensberry while anything goes from your side including a little help from tyhe UN on cross border kidnap/murder. By the way you are lying about the initial missile salvo.

....Israel the excuse, Huh Johnboy? Why was it absolutely necessary for Hezbollah to kidnap the soldiers and to kill five other soldiers? Huh Johnboy? I mean, no kidnapping/killing, Israel has no excuse to start a war, no war voila! I mean wouldn't that be sweet revenge on Israel? All that planning by them and daaaaaammmmnnnn, no excuse for war! But wait...... maybe Nassrallah is a secret Mossad agent and he deliberately initiated the kidnapping/killing of the soldiers to hand Israel an excuse to start their war ?!

Freshly minted.

I have searched for a timeline for rocket attacks on Shlomi. The UNIFIL report (S/2006/560) is adament that the intial rocketfire at 9am were directed at IDF locations, principly near Zarit, but also "(IDF) positions near the coast". Looking at the map it appears that Shlomi fits that description. That report also notes that SUBSEQUENT to the capture and removal of the soldiers that: "a heavy exchange of fire ensued across the Blue Line between Hizbollah and IDF. While the exchange of fire stretched over the entire length of the Line, it was heaviest in the areas west of Bint Jubayl and in the Shab'a farms area." Shlomi doesn't appear to fit that description, but it might have gotten swotted during that artillery duel AFTER the abduction. But if it was before the adbuction then it was deemed to be so unimportant that it was lumped into the catch-all "(IDF) positions near the coast". Hardly a damning indictment, and no evidence of targetting civilians.

"Israel fought a war of choice, not of self-defense, and it was stupid to do that because it fought and lost." (Johnboy) To be more accurate, everybody, Israel, Lebanon and Hazbollah lost as is the case in all wars. Everybody loses but the victor loses the least. So, in order not to lose, the option of war should not be "on the table". But of course that's not a choice that organizations like Hezbollah want to try. They want to have the types of wars that suit them and not Israel. Naturally enough though, Israel on the other hand says: No, we won't have half pregnant wars. Israel says: We would prefer to sort things out without wars but if it's war that you (Hezbollah) want, then we (Israel) will have wars that suit us, not half pregnant wars that bleed us to death and kills us via a thousand cuts ... And if that doesn't suit Hezbollah, or the extreme and unjust lefties, then that's just too bad .... and maybe, just maybe, they won't start any wars!

July 12, 2006, Hezbollah began mortar and Katyusha rocket fire on Israeli towns near the moshav of Zarit, and then attacked an IDF patrol inside Israel, killing three soldiers and taking two prisoners. When an IDF tank tried to give chase, it was destroyed by a mine placed their for that purpose. After this act of provocation, who wanted war Johnboy?

"Sorry, but Hezbollah did fire about 40 Katyusha rockets at Israeli civilian population centers which had no relation to the IDF as a diversion to their unprovoked, cross-border, ground incursion into Israeli sovereign territory" - care to cite your references, Jeff, because I cited mine. "Who are you to decide how and by how much a sovereign nation is to use to defend itself against an unprovoked attack by a foreign entity?" - not me, Jeff, that little inconvenience called the U.N. Charter. Article 2(4) says that you can not launch a war simply to achieve a political goal. Article 51 defines when you can go to war under the guise of self-defence. You'll have a real hard time justifying what is reported in this article with what is mentioned in Article 2(4). A pre-meditated plan to go BAMM! on Hezbollah so that you can maintain your "deterrent capabilities" seems to be quite at odds with that article.

I understand the zionist ploy of playing the man, rather than keeping your eye on the ball. "A "raid" is not an act of war, Johnboy? So Japan`s "raid" on Pearl Harbor was not an act of war?" Hahaha!! Oh, you're serious? Perl Harbor was an attack used to start a war. Japan had every intention of going to war, and that attack was their first roll of the dice. It was an act of war. Hezbollah's raid was a cross-border incursion. It was not intended to start a war, any more than any of the similar incursions or artillery duel that happens in, say, Korea, or Kashmir, or Africa. It was what it was - an armed incursion with a limited military objection. It did not amount to an armed attack against a nation, which is what triggers the UN's Article 51 right to self-defence. "Are recon satellite overflights of everyplace also "acts of war"??" - nitwit. Satellites do not fly through sovereign airspace.

"I most certainly hope that Hizbollah is not planning any such moves. Without doubt, should they, the second time around will not be anything like the first time." Why? The new boy in charge of the IDF brought a magic wand with him, did he? If there is a 2nd round Israel will make the mistake of launching a huge ground offensive from day one. Then find, oooops, that it can't get those troops back out again. It'll be just like the US army in Iraq, and we all know how wonderfully well that is going, don't we?

"The Arabs in general are now more optimistic about their ability. Israel lost deterrence and the Arabs gained some." Where are all those Arabs lining up to attack Israel? According to your thesis Hamas should be firing up those rockets, not asking Israel via Abbas to extend the ceasefire.

You cannot re-interpret the UN Charter to suit your purposes. Israel was attacked on her soil, an act of war under any interpretations, and Israel responded. The terrorists of Hizbollah should have consulted the UN Charter before engaging in their illegal attack.

What Hezbollah had done was a PREEMPTIVE strike against a possibility of a PREEMPTIVE STRIKE by Israel. What was it tell you? Hezbollah has a good intelligence that surprised Israel. ..."And what does this all have to do with Al Aqsa?..." Israel intentions is beyond what it says. Don't believe what it says so easily. That is what I mean.

I most certainly hope that Hizbollah is not planning any such moves. Without doubt, should they, the second time around will not be anything like the first time.

How about the five soldiers killed during the abduction??? Maybe your government will also negotiate for compensation.!!!!

Get with the program, or pack up and leave. The jihadists have long ago launched 100 years of terrorism -- America has been fighting Arab terrorism since its war against the Tripolitan (Libyan) pirates, Syrian collaboration with Nazi Germany, in Lebanon in 1958 -- all had nothing to do with Israel. Remember what happened to Iran last time they blocked Hormuz (80's)? Retreated with their tails between their legs and their asses on fire, like the cowards they are, crawled back under their rock. If they try it again, Bushehr reactor and Natanz centrifuge complex will become smoking holes in the ground on the same day, and they know it. Followed by Tehran and Damascus if they want to play rougher. They know that, too.

"You see Marilyn, while it`s reasonable to expect a country to respond with restraint over a single attack, it`s not reasonable to expect restraint after hundreds of attacks over many years.....See the difference?" There was an understanding between Hezbollah and Israel - an written undertaking - following the Israeli excesses of Operation Grapes of Wrath, whereby the grounds rules by which both the IDF and Hezbollah would operate was codified. That is an exercise in restraint, Tim. Nasrallah carried out his ambush and kidnapping assuming that Israel would act according to the understanding as it was accepted between the two sides. Israel didn't, because Israel had another agenda - it wanted to display ruthlessness in order to reinforce its "deterrent capabilities". That's why there was a war, and that's why the war was fought so ruthlessly. Israel fought a war of choice, not of self-defense, and it was stupid to do that because it fought and lost.

"Olmert has told the Winograd Commission that his decision to respond to the abduction of soldiers with a broad military operation was made as early as March 2006, four months before last summer's Lebanon war broke out." The above simply means: A plan for a reaction for an attack/abduction of soldiers. Of course,you would rather twist the meaning of the statement because of your hatred for Israel. May I ask how would you respond if your enemy came to your house and killed 5 of your siblings and abducted your wife and your daughter? Honestly tell me how would you respond? Please don' reply in lies. What does "honour killing" means in your faith? Huh Wally!!! Oh is it true that when you carry out honour killing it is accepted in your faith but when someone else retaliate back,it means they are inhumane!!! Who provoke Israel to retaliate?? Isn't it because of Hizbullah's killing and abduction of Israelis soldiers????

Is it leaking out through the hole in the ozone layer? Or did they resume using lead to seal up the seams in Foster's cans? Why do we get these crackpot talkback responses from Australians? A "raid" is not an act of war, Johnboy? So Japan's "raid" on Pearl Harbor was not an act of war? Give us all a break! And I can assure you there was NEVER an invasion of USA soil resulting in kidnapping of US personnel that was not treated by the US as an act of war! You are fantasizing. And as for the idiotic claim that Israeli overflights of Lebanon -- involving no shots fired, bombs dropped or damage to Lebanon -- are an "act of war"...the UN charter says no such thing. Are recon satellite overflights of everyplace also "acts of war"?? What complete rubbish you two spout. Use your heads.

THE ELECTION OF DEMOCRATS WILL NOT CHANGE US POLICY !! TRY SOME EDUCATION UNDER" REALPOLITIK" INSTEAD OF REALLY DEEP DEBATE IN CASINOS !!

My thought. Poker rooms ? Thats a good source of for opinions.

"Do you regard the overflights as an `act of war,` or do you subscribe to double standards with such issues?" (Maureen Ann) You and your lot have no problems with your own double standards. War seems to do that to people on both sides. Now, of course if people like you would be willing to exhort BOTH PARTIES for the wrongs that they each perpetrate and demand that they BOTH STOP WAR and TALK PEACE, then I wouldn't call your criticisms of Israel as double standard. But seeing that you and your lot expect ONLY Israel to play dead and give in to violent extortion, I call your attitude what it is: HYPOCRITICAL!

It is you prefered method of handwaving away inconvenient truths. Read this article again. Halutz wanted to go BAMMM! BANG! on Lebanon, and he wanted to do that in order to reinforce Israel's "deterrent capability". That is, Halutz wanted a war in order to frighten the neighbors so much they'll sit quietly - shaking with fear - in their box. He wanted a war, and he and Olmert decided that the kidnapping of a soldier was a good enough excuse to start that war. Now, go and have a look at Article 2(4), PETER, and tell me in all honesty that Halutz and Olmert's plan was not in violation of that fundamental article of the UN. Coz this was a war of CHOICE by those two clowns, not a war of self-defence. But you? You LIKE the idea of Israel bullying and bashing the neighbors every couple of years, don't you? Well, good for you PETER. So long as Israel always wins.

"We would negotiate a release and not blow a whole country to bits." (Marilyn) .... The country from which the kidnapping would be initiated would allow hundreds of terrorist raids against innocent Australians, for many years, prior to that kidnapping.....?????? You see Marilyn, while it's reasonable to expect a country to respond with restraint over a single attack, it's not reasonable to expect restraint after hundreds of attacks over many years.....See the difference?

I see this Rachel "Corrie" on this thread indicating she is not the "Rachel" I believed you were asking me about. Other person's name was Rachel with a very similar sounding last name, maybe Carrie or Corrie. Anyway, so who is she?

Jeff, we do not have a knockout situation here, so things have to be decided by points. You are trying to compare incomparables, number of casualties, damage to infrastructure, etc. If one side does not care about casualties (because they go to paradise), then you can't compare the sides on this basis. Likewise money, if Iran is paying for Hizballah people. Normally it would be very difficult to decide on the winner with such incomparables, but not in this case. If Hizballah knows that it gained something on balance, and Israel knows it lost something on balance, then Hizballah won even though we cannot compare the actual amount of gain for Hizballah and loss for Israel. Whatever the exchange rate, Hizballah will see a plus and Israel a minus. "One more "victory" like that and southern Lebanon will be reoccupied by Israel until further notice." - Jeff Here your lack of realism beats you. Israel does NOT want to reoccupy Lebanon. It suffered enough from 82 thru 2000. It is afraid of repeating the misery of being subject to guerilla attacks. Better forget it. Not going to happen.

"Yet they tell the world that Shalit kidnapping caused the war, what liars!! Right on Mr. Hersh, you keep digging and telling the truth at the time it is relevant." (ballistic) Planning a response to likely scenarios is not the same as planning to start a war without provocation. Many countries, including neutral scandinavian countries, have plans to respond to various undesirable scenarios and having those plans doesn't mean that they are war mongers....

The IDF expects a nother round this summer, although some say that would be too soon and it will happen a little later. The expected war is based on the expectation that HIZBALLAH will start it, not that Israel will. Israel does not want another round with the north getting hit. When your enemy wants such a round, you know they do not feel broken at all. Indeed, Hizballah and the other Arabs learned that they can hurt Israel by using missiles against civilians and anti-tank missiles against the IDF. Syria had learned the lesson too and is acquiring such missiles. The Arabs in general are now more optimistic about their ability. Israel lost deterrence and the Arabs gained some.

I am gratified that you approve of the US. It must be repeated that none of the incidents you refer to were an attack on American soil. When America was attacked on American soil, it responded in kind. The Second Lebanon war was instigated by Hizbollah with a missile attack on the town of Shlomi and other targets in the north, as was reported by the BBC, CNN, The New York Times and other sources. Nasrallah declared in Al Bawana that his purpose for the raid was to kidnap soldiers, and to exchange them, plus Shalit, and also to decrease the pressure on the Palestinians. Regardless of how you try to twist the fact, and resorting to name calling--Israel is a "rogue" nation--, Israel was within its rights to respond to a clear act of war, especially since this was not the first kidnapping or attempted kidnapping.

Howdy Johnboy; Sorry, but Hezbollah did fire about 40 Katyusha rockets at Israeli civilian population centers which had no relation to the IDF as a diversion to their unprovoked, cross-border, ground incursion into Israeli sovereign territory. This happened before any Israeli response. If anyone is trying to rewrite history, it is you. Who are you to decide how and by how much a sovereign nation is to use to defend itself against an unprovoked attack by a foreign entity? The response can vary widely from a diplomatic protest to a full-scale war. Just keep your Hezbollah buddies on their side of the Blue Line and everything will be fine.

Here come the screaming banshees, ranting and raving to try and defend the indefensible. Israel planned an attack on Lebanon again and used the lives of two young men as an excuse - I have been saying that for many months now since it became clear that the IDF knew they would be taken and didn't stop it. The IDF have turned Israel into a police state ever since they stole the land from the Palestinians and drove them into the sea. The problem with lying, bullying thugs who commit terrible crimes against humanity and war crimes is that they are afraid it will happen back. This admission from Olmert didn't come from me, I am not racist as there are no races of people, we are all just people.

Pablo, the article says that the U.S. and Mexico are unsure whether they are drug smugglers in army gear or army personnel that have gone in the wrong direction by mistake. Israel was preparing for a response with an enemy terrorist organization that exists foremost for the destruction of Israel and the destruction of Jews worldwide. Besides the fact Pablo, that you didn't directly answer my question.....what would happen if they kidnapped some U.S. soldiers? We all know that diplomacy would take a back seat. Everyone keeps saying that it isn't that big of a deal.....they have sought the end of Jews and Israel for a very long time now and violence has been used in countless occasions. If a bully rapes your mom, robs your house, steals your car, then a couple years down the line decides to kidnap your child....guess what? You're gonna be done talking!!!! Israel had a contingency plan for the bully. Nothing more, nothing less. Our patience is running thin for terrorism! Shalom

Just stated the rampant violence in Baghdad is down 80%.

2007. Plays by the rules? Not that I remember. Bombing US marines asleep in their beds is not playing by the rules.

You suggest that to determine which side won the war, one should ask Hez supporters versus Israelis what they think? Would you also judge the outcome of a close boxing match by asking the supporters of each fighter who won? This is dubious subjective reasoning. There are more objective measures, such as which side suffered greater losses? Clearly Lebanon by an order of magnitude. Which side accepted foreign troops on thier soil? Lebanon. Which side is sitting quietly licking its wounds? Lebanon. Meanwhile Israel is getting ready to bomb Iran.

Olmert is an idiot. He goes hand in hand with George Bush. This is hard for me to say as I am a proud defender of Israel and the USA.

ChanahS, I appreciate your arguement - however it has been revealed that Israel holds Lebanese prisoners without charge or trial. I appreciate the imprisonment of individuals such as Quntar and don't dispute his guilt. However please read the following article: http://www.arabmediawatch.com/amw/Articles/Analysis/tabid/75/newsid395/2946/Lebanese-prisoners-in-Israel/Default.aspx Specifically the following "An incomplete list obtained by Ha'aretz from the Israeli Prison Service in March 1997 suggested that Israel held 52 Lebanese, mostly captured in Lebanese territory by the Israeli Defence Force or its proxy militia, the South Lebanon Army (disbanded since Israel's withdrawal from south Lebanon in 2000). Particular concern was held for 21 Lebanese detainees, who broadly fitted two categories... 10 others were captured around the same time, and held in administrative detention without charge or trial. They were forcibly taken to Israel, where they were held in a Ramaleh prison."

I did not say in my post that America had military personnel captured and removed from its mainland. I said that on at least four occassions she had military personnel kidnapped as an deliberate act of provocation: * The Pueblo incident with North Korea * The Mayagüez incident with the Khymer Rouge * Iranian embassy seige * The Hainan Island incident with the Chinese and in not one of those incidents did the USA respond with all-out war - even though at least two of them resulted in a US military response. The USA - an immeasurably more powerful nation than Israel - understands the rules under which nations operate in these circumstances. Israel does not - it is a rogue nation that makes up its own rules, and responds to provocation with the irresponsible application of unnecessary force.

Howdy Tosefta; All military historians agree that the victor of a battle or war is he who remains standing on the field of battle regardless of the cost in blood and treasure. If we subtract out the fact that Lebanon suffered ten times the number of casualties and damage to infrastructure as did Israel, absolutely nothing happened. Neither side was able to seize and hold one sq. cm. of enemy territory. Hezbollah managed to survive and still holds the two Israeli soldiers, but they are no longer in exclusive control of the border and are not likely to repeat their mistake. Israel is still in control of all of her sovereign territory and the Shebaa Farms without UNIFIL intervention, has several dozen Hezbollah prisoners, and is preparing for the next round if necessary. If Hezbollah "won", then it was a Pyrrhic victory which they nor Lebanon can afford to repeat. One more "victory" like that and southern Lebanon will be reoccupied by Israel until further notice.

"NO, the rockets were fired on border villages - Zarit, Shlomi and Shetula." Tosefta has already given the corroborating story from Haaretz in his post #178: " "Two Israelis were wounded when gunmen in Lebanon began pounding the IDF`s Zarit position and other posts along the border before 9 A.M...... Haaretz , July 12th" They were not firing on civilians, ChanahS, no matter how many times you insist on claiming otherwise. THAT piece of propaganda was created after the facts had already been reported - correctly - by both the UN and the media. History was rewritten, and you are simply repeating those untruths.

Lebanon's Daily Star, 9 March 2007 reports, Premier Fouad Siniora is still complaining about Israel's overflights into Lebanese sovereign airspace. Do you regard the overflights as an 'act of war,' or do you subscribe to double standards with such issues?

And thanks for actually putting on your thinking cap. Everyone else here simply repeats the mantra "they targetted civilians, they targetted civilians, they targetted civilians" without ever once asking the obvious question: just why, exactly, they would want to do that when they are carrying out an ambush? What would be the point? Why would they attempt something so clearly counter-productive to their aim? Coz, let's face it, if you are planning on negotiating for the soldiers then you don't want to go around killing civilians just for FUN - it does rather harden the other side's attitude, and makes the negotiations just that much trickier. It never made sense, and it never rang true. And, sure enough, it was a lie. Propaganda. But there is no telling these guys - they KNOW, and therefore they are not willing to listen, nor are they willing to search out the evidence. Coz they aren't willing to THINK.

The House where there is a clear majority has passed what they want to pass, now is the time for the budget. The Senate is very close, a 1 vote margin, and Johnson is still down and out and Lieberman has made veiled threats to jump ship if anybody does anything about the Iraq war. Bush should be impeached, however, hosts argue that no president has been impeached in the midst of war, this and that. Who knows, they are all idiots and in the meantime our soldiers are being picked off daily like turkeys, 9 one day, 3 the next and the killing goes on. Nobody of national stature, not even Petraeus, is arguing we can win; it appears the plan is to try to leave it without causing a bigger catastrophe. Professionals where I work are saying they pray Dubya's term ends before the US is irretrievable. Everyone I come in contact at casinos/poker room is worried and unsettled of the unknown, but based on the past it doesn't look good. Your thoughts?

You state that the Vietnamese were given leave to stay in Israel. Were they given "Citizenship" even if they did not change their religion.

on a previous blog when I brought her name up, but I couldn't remember her last name and someone posted it. I know she was run over by a large catepillar bulldozer attempting to keep the Israelis from demolishing a doctor's house in the Pal area. Her English parents are suing the Israeli gov't based on witness statements of her companions and others present. According to the family, she was runned down on purpose when she refused to move out of the way. What about her? I saw a poster before who had a name very similar to that, but I believe the last name was spelled differently. In any case, she is quite dead so I read. Anyway, yes I know OF her. And?

Jeff said "If [Lebanon] wants the Shebaa Farms, then you will have to get a quit-claim deed from Syria first." Not true. UNSC 1701 gave the UN the unilateral power to re-draw the 2000 border, just like they had unilateral authority back in 2000. Syria only has a liaison role. No quit-claim title is needed, as the UN Sec. Gen. sent his own folks to Shebaa to examine the land-owner's titles and old maps, and to survey and demarcate the land. This work is on-going and the time limit has been extended past the 30-day report called for in 1701. But once it is done the UN doesn't need any permission from anyone to unilaterally re-set the border it set in 2000. Who gets Shebaa? 1) Israel, who's annex of the Golan was declaired illegal by the UN? 2) Syria, who refuses to cooperate? 3) Lebanon, who lines up a bunch of senior citizens and children holding land titles for photo ops? My bet is on #3. Yours?

Interim findings of war won't deal with personal failures. That is alright. The people have spoken. A civilian leader took us to war and than lost it by his lawyering. He has to go before we face Iran nukes and mahmoud promise to see us drowned in the mediterranean

kidnapping.The Arabs raised the ante with the rocket barrage. They killed they last Israeli captives. Is hitting back your definition of bully? The Lebanese had a free kick once before when they kidnap murdred 4 Israeli soldiers over the border using UN marked vehicles. Diplomacy did nothing. The UN lied for the Arabs.But you demand Israel act to rules flaunted by the UN and the Arabs. They were not going to get a rerun,they needed some aversion therapy this time.Bearing all the above events in mind makes Israel a"bully"? Of course people like you never let the whole picture spoil a good story.

but israel is a jewish state.what would you have us do?bring a bus full of hate and folly like rachel corrie?

that is not what the Grand Mufti of Tyre and the south says. Nor is it what Jumblatt says. The Sunni leaders and the Druze don't seem to agree with your assessment either. Only Aoun would be in agrement. Of course, the only way he will get to be the Pesident of Lebanon is by force since he can't seem to get elected.

they want to be able to move more quickly in disarming Hezbollah. Leading military, Italian, would prefer to engage Hezbollah instead of waiting for the LAF to show up. Is asking the UN to change the rules of engagement to accomplish their goal. Seems the Lebanese military takes too long to get into position and OK the engagements. UN needs to let UNIFIL do their job. Just love those Italians, so much different then the French commanders.

Big mistake. Pride comes before a fall. Unfortunately, you must understand that those subjected to Isramerican aggression in the Middle East have remained steadfast, and even though they'd lose battling you, they’ve never given up resisting. Now, say your dream comes true, and despite Isra's warnings of armageddon, launching wars against Syria and Iran, this aggression would definitely lead to WWIII. Isra's IDF isn't powerful enough to take on such countries on its own so it will need Merica's help. Wait until Iran blockades the Straits of Homruz, forcing oil prices to skyrocket. The jihadists will be emboldened to the brim and start a terror campaign of 100 years, sending the Arab world to further backwardness and bring hellfire and brimstone to the West. You can forget about the security of Isra. The world will blame Isra for reacting, and you can be sure that anti-Semitism will go through the roof worldwide. Think of the consequences of such views, both short- and long term.

Israel's been trying to negotiate the release of Ron Arad for the past 21 years. To-date nobody has seen hide of hair of him, don't even know if he's still alive. Prisoner release negotations have been fruitless. Negotiations of Eldad & Regev are in limbo, don't know if they're dead or alive. There's an end to patience, it was when Lebanese Hezbollah launched the attacks, Israel retaliated.

Sharafna. Thanks for the compliment on my town. It took quite a bit of damage this past summer, but I've admired the South Lebanon hills for many years, especially at sunset, and I saw the damage done there, too. I hope we will visit sometime, insha'allah. Thanks also for your wishes about my comrades. Ana bahlam ala salaam kul yom. Yimken la W'laadak wa w'laadi. B'chatrak. Shalom!

because they were jews." but they are also a huge financial burden on the state.absorbing these immigrants is no small job. we rescued vietnamese boat people and yet none were jews.they were given leave to stay in israel.

with your face contorted with rage and your mouth wide open?hatred and venom showing all over your face?

Even without the abducted soldiers, Israel had every right to attack Lebanon and should have done so in the past. Every Israeli in the North told me during the years of more than 12.000 Hizbullah rockets threatening their life. Hizbullah is an armed terror organization and functions illegally as a state inside a state. It is the duty of the Lebanese government to exercise sovereignty over all its territory. No country in the world can allow at its borders an illegal militia armed to the teeth with the declared goal to destroy a sovereign state. Sharon knew about the situation but remained passive because it was clear to him that Hizbullah would have to be dealt with when the inevitable showdown with the nuclear mullahs in Iran would take place. He was right in the sense that he wanted to solve the problem in one round, whereas now a second round will be necessary.

Just how is Hizbollah better off stratigically today than they were before the war?

Ilya, the journalist is stacking his reputation on it. He described it once himself as coming from very reliable military and government sources and always taking the information down in the presence of his editor to give it more credibility since he cannot devulge the source. Both the New Yorker Magazine where he works and the San Francisco Chronicle, that picked up the article are respectable publications and would not print hocus pocus stuff.

Hizbollah had been building a stockpile of rockets and arms aimed at Israel ever since Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000 - and against the UN authorized agreement. Hizbollah had launced numerous attackes on Israel during those six years, abducted soldeirs before (who were returned three years later in bodybags in exchange for LEbanese prisoners).

Stephen Connor, you read my second mesage to Ronnie and misinterpreted my meaning. Go back to the first to Ronnie #182 and you will get a clearer picture of what I'm saying. I just noticed my other message to you didn't make it through. Here it is again: Stephen Connor, there are a few small villages in the south that are mostly Christian. I'll try to find out more about them and get back to you in a few days about it. Thanks.

1 The United States has never had military personnel, or any other citizen, captured on its soil. Indeed, the United States had not been attacked on its soil since Pearl Harbour, until nine eleven. 2 A legitimate cause for war is not always followed by war. The aggrieved party might have other means, or other considerations to exhaust.

"I said that firing rockets against garrison soldiers" - NO, the rockets were fired on border villages - Zarit, Shlomi and Shetula. "means you are using that barrage as covering fire to protect your own troops," NO - covering fire to protect your own troops who are involved in a cross border raid, which in itself is a declaration of war - does not make it legit. It wass not cover to protect - it was an attack in another area in order to create a diversion. Hiz had nothing to proetect themselves against - it was they who were preempting an attack.

Tosefta Hi I have responded to a few,but Haaretz is being miserly and have not put some of them. Doubt that you'll get this one,so I am not going to beat a "dead horse" If this comes out,I'll eat my hat(as they say) What is the point inreplying properly?

"You know better. Because you KNOW." WHy should you, who lives in Australia KNOW, while I, who live in Israel don't KNOW. Rather presumptios of your, and nedd I add - TEDIOUS.

From any military point of view, Israel was not beaten during this war. But what went wrong was the aftermath, the negotiations led by stupid people like Livni who permitted Hizbullah to be rearmed under the very protection of the UN, where they should have been disarmed. History will judge this as a fatal failure which exposed to the whole world the incompetence of this government and even made a joke out of Israel. The returning to the situation quo ante with more than 100 fatal casualties and the UNIFIL hoax is one of the reasons, but not the only one, for the Olmert troika to step down.

Plausable rationale - it was a cover and diversionary tactic to draw attention away forom their intention to abduct IDf soldiers. This is so well documented, but of course you don't see what doesn't fit your agenda. UNIFIL intelligence is not foolproof. UNIFIL vehicles were used by Hizbollah it its last abduction, which took 3 years of negotiations and freedom for most Lebanes prisoners in Israel in return for 3 bodybags (Apropo Marylin's brainwave of negotiations and your gung-ho support - we simply have experience of what its like to negotiate with murderers. Do you?) "...Hizbollah launched several [40- my addition] rockets from Lebanese territory across the withdrawal line (the so-called Blue Line) towards Israel Defense Forces (IDF) positions near the coast and in the area of the Israeli town of Zarit." Zarit, Shlomi and Shtula were three Israeli towns assailed with rockets as a diversion. Not a single Hiz rocket hit a military installation throughout the war.

la republica. "hizballah is not the same hizballah that started the war.they are unable to repeat the exercise."

as well? Do your criminals hunt them out as well?

feel they have achieved a strategic victory. what is your proof for that prepostrous claim?

I am well aware of the emotive, off-the-cuff comments of Egelund. I am aware of all the other emotive, off-the-cuff comments by other diplomats and politicians who came into the region and were appalled by the behaviour of both sides. But if your "evidence" consists of sound-bites in the daily news, well, you don't have much, do you? So I'll repeat it again: IF Hezbollah was hiding in among civilians, and FORCING the IDF to blow those civilians to Kingdom-come in order to get at those embedded Hezbollah forces, then WHERE did the Hezbollah corpses go? Coz the Red Cross never found any, no matter how many "human shields" they pulled out of the bomb craters. Lebanese civil defence never found any, no matter how many Lebanese bodies they had to scrape out of wrecked cars and collapsed buildings. What happened to the EVIDENCE, PETER? Coz, PETER, in this case the absence of evidence *is* evidence of absence.

won that war." ask the shia denizens of the south.they have been putting massive pressure on nasrallah to make sure he does not provoke israel again. that is the reason he told his people he simply did not expect an israeli attack.that was his excuse to his people."atlaqan" was his reply meaning absolutely and definitely not. tosefta shows total ignorance of the situation in lebanon when he thinks the southerners achieved any sort of victory.

thats what happens when you have so much hate in your heart!anybody that attacks israel is your hero's,don't matter what kind of murders they are,you will still support them!

"Yes John I know I will get a nasty response from you saying talking about all out war is nuts but after all this is all these people understand." Have I been nasty in this talkback? But we are both in agreement here; Israel responded to a cross-border raid by going APE-SHIT on Lebanon. It did so not out of self-defence, but out of a desire to send a message to the neighborhood that Israel is One Big, Mean Motherf**ker who Must Not Be Crossed, otherwise it goes Crazy-KooKoo and starts Smashing Things Up. We both agree that this was the message, and this message was pre-planned. Where we disagree: You think this behavior is A Good Thing, and I think this is the behavior and mentality of a rogue nation that is out of control, is totally irresponsible, and is revelling and glorying in that irresponsibility. It's a difference in attitude, Kipperraes, not a matter of me "getting it wrong".

Johnboy For a person/persons who think so badly about Israel and the Israelis you are not doing too badly are you.Having the freedom to speak with such vemom on a daily basis and critical of our country ISRAEL! Try it if you can,and spread your bull,in any Arab newspaper and see how you fare eh? You and marilyn are nothing but bullshiters who love it here,and you'd be lost without this our free and democratic paper who lives in Israel.How about that for starters? Peter SM knows how Australia operates,thanks to P.M Howard. So cut the crap,and wake up to the real world.............................

Walid, I'm afraid you and too many other people give Bush 'credit' for things; I don't personally think he's intelligent enough. It's an 'administration' thing, and Cheney looks to me to be more complicit than Bush. The whole 'gang' may influence Bush, but his similarity in looks to a monkey isn't necessarily a deception!

Howdy Walid; If Hezbollah (and by extension Lebanon) wants the Shebaa Farms, then you will have to get a quit-claim deed from Syria first. Although the Shebaa Farms is currently occupied by Israel, the area is still contested between Lebanon and Syria. First, get Syria to officially renounce her claims to the Shebaa Farms, then Israel would be required to withdraw from it in accordance with an UNSCR. By the way, Hezbollah also claims several small portions of Israel across the Blue Line which have never been part of Lebanon as Lebanese territory. What about that?

Bruriah Sara While I was rading your post it came to mind by some old people who lived in Turkey,and the stories they told on the behaviour of the turks versus the non Muslims.Apparently they had introduced a sort of "poll tax"(in turkish I believe was called "yol vergisi"And this in this century,hard to believe it.They applied it to the Christians and Jews,but not necessarily in that order.Merely to all non Muslims. But no restrictions on churches or synagogues. Non Islamist men were not accepted to a position of officer.The regime was harsh and men were humiliated. And to think from a so-called "secular" Islamic country. We know they have altered their attitude,now they depend on the "tourist" trade and somthings seems to change. But,when we hear complaints by their liberally minded women and their objection,to their President's wife wearing a head scarf,thus turning the clock back.In short they too are toeing the Islamist line,a veneer. Thus no EU for them.

Can they order Hesbala/Iran to do anything.? Hesbala as you are or should be aware was and most likely is an autonomous body governing South Lebanon.What they say goes not the Lebanese govt. There is no doubt about Hesbala's intentions,they are quite open about them, and they accumulated huge numbers of missiles for the purpose that did not happen overnight. To treat this as a overreaction to a simple kidnapping is just ideologically driven apologia.

There are strange people here who do not know that to decide who gained (won) and who lost, one has to look at the TWO sides of the ledger; not only the credit (gain) side but also the debit (loss) side. Then one has to calculate the balance and see if the net total amounts to plus or minus. A few people here would look at the plus side and say: Israel devastated Lebanon, killed many Lebanese, and deterred Hizballh. All is true, but this is only the plus side of the ledger. On the minus side, Israel suffered ober 150 dead, the north was bombed badly, and Hizballah succeeded in establishing a deterrence that Israel will now have to take into account. Calculating the balance could be tricky. A human life is worth more in Israel than in Lebanon. Difficult to compare. But in this conflict the sign (+-) of the total balance is easy to determine. You ask both Israel and Hizballah: Are you better off strategically than you were before the war? Hizballah would say: Yes. Israelis know their answer is no. Too bad, Israel lost that war. It should prepare and try to win the next one.

I always found it funny how Israel claims that Hezbollah started the war against Israel by kidnapping 2 soldiers and killing some others (not defending their actions, it wasn't the smartest thing to do.) But hasn't Israel been violating Lebanese airspace for a number of years now? Isn't this in breach of previous UN Resolutions? Seems like some double standards here. I would be concerned if I were an Israeli right about now... Planning for this war, advanced military technology... and they still failed to achieve their objectives. I wouldn't say either side 'won' - but Israel sure has hell has lost quite a bit. And does this mean that Sy Hersh was accurate in his recent statements? Looks like Israel is thirsty for some Litani.

Mr. Wright, (I bet you hear that joke all the time.) Irrelevant! It is already in the PA's interest to prevent terror but they CAN'T do it. The outside interests, Islamic Jihad, Hizb'Allah, Al-Aqsa Martyrs, Al Quaeda, etc. are not in control of the PA. They will not ever be in control of the PA until the PA has a strong military. The PA will never be allowed to have a strong military until they make a believable commitment to peaceful relations with Israel, including recognition. So far they consistently refuse step 1. I am as yet uncertain whether a statement by Israel of recognition of Palestine's right to exist would dissuade Hamas. It would surely enrage some of the right wing Zionists and if it were futile in eliciting a reciprocal recognition from Hamas then it would be political suicide for its administration. Peace. Steve

Walid, "if you take away Hizbullah`s reason for being it would cease to be and all it was asking was to release the Shebaa Farms." Organizations or people with power never just cease to be. They will invent some reason to keep their power. Who is Hassan Nasrallah without Hizb'Allah. He would rather instigate a conflict with Israel than live peacefully as nobody. It never happens. Those kind of people never give it up voluntarily (King Juan Carlos and the Turkish military excluded). I wouldn't hold my breath believing that if the Shebaa farms were ceded to Lebanon that Hizb'Allah would disband. Peace. Steve

""Perfectly legit" to cross the international border and kill Israeli soldiers " I said no such thing. I said that firing rockets against garrison soldiers means you are using that barrage as covering fire to protect your own troops, and THAT is a perfectly legit use of artillery. "They were given a painfull lesson when they kill Israelis.No free kick or a few flea bites in return,they paid big time." Yes, my point exactly. This war was - as the article makes clear - the considered and pre-planned expression of Israeli government policy i.e. an attempt to frighten and cower the neighborhood. That is not self-deference, and that is certainly in defiance of Article 2(4) of the UN Charter. Israel is a bully. It periodically wants to remind the neighbors that it is a bully. Last year was Lebanon's turn. All very well, until it looses. Israel picked up the Big Stick and went BAMMMM, and it not only did it miss its real target, but that target BAMMMed it right back. Hard.

I don't think the Arabs can afford such victories in the future. They continue to delude themselves into thinking they won a marvelous victory during the July-August war, but suffering about 2000 killed and 2 billion dollars in infrastructure damage is hardly a victory.While the Israelis lost about 140 souls and about 1.5 billion dollars, the negative economic effects are hardly a negative blip on Israel's hot economy.

"They were too launched at civilian populations. Not once was a rocket aimed at military installation. That first barrage was launced at civilian towns." *sigh* I quote from the Secretary General's report delivered to the UN Security Council from the UNIFIL commanders in the field. I quote the number of that document, and its date. The report says that the rockets were **NOT** fired at civilians. They were fired at IDF positions "near the coast and in the area of the Israeli town of Zarit." And in reply? You simply repeat the same old mantra. Time after boring time. It's called polemics, ChanahS. Look the word up, and maybe you'll learn for yourself something new. Coz you certainly aren't willing to learn from me, nor from the UN Secretery General, nor from the UNIFIL commanders in the field. You know better. Because you KNOW. So. Very. Tedious.

"We would negotiate a release and not blow a whole country to bits." Exactly. PETER SM knows this full well. He just assumes that Israel is a law unto itself, can do what it wants, and no-one has any reason to complain. His entire argument is that Israel has to - HAS TO - behave in this way, and behaving in this way is perfectly normal. And what was Israel's behavior? Basically, it is this: Someone pokes us with a stick? Well then, we'll go CRAZY APE-SHIT and run around waving our arms and screaming and busting up everything we can see. And if we ALWAYS respond to provocation by going CRAZY APE-SHIT then everyone will be too scared to ever poke us with a stick again. Yeah....riiiiiight. Might explain why the rest of the world critizises Israel so loud and so often; coz, you know, Israel acts like a crazy man.

Regarding the pre-planned war against the Hezbollah killers in Lebanon,the state of war, which exists between the Jewish nation and those who want to see the ultimate destruction of Israel, would necessitate such an activity. Israeli Army reservists Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev were not captured by Hezbollah. Indeed, they were kidnapped by this terrorist group well known for its hiding amond and behind civilians.

Haaretz is getting very tiring with its lying headlines and feeble, misleading articles. They know what they're doing with their choice of words and rhetoric. They do it deliberately. This article has already made it into BBC. It's all about ratings. What Olmert said is very clear and simple, if Haaretz had bothered to report it truthfully. Israel did not 'plan the war in advance'. It laid out the guidelines about what a possible REPONSE would involve if Hizbullah decided to cross the Israeli borders and attack. Hizbullah attacked. Hizbullah killed. Hizbullah kidnapped. Israel responded. Haaretz gets a failing mark for honest reporting, and a red card for spreading lies, vitreol, and slander about Israel throughout the net which gets repeated verbatim by haters of Israel and Jews. Haaretz authors and editors are aware of the consequence of their nefarious actions. They are a disgrace to Israel, to Jews, to journalism, to the internet, and to freedom of expression.

"By all international standards, this "raid" was an act of war, Lebanon is responsible for all acts launched from its soil." You need to back up both those claims, my friend. By my reading of the UN Charter a cross border RAID is not a casus belli for a war of self-defence - which is, you may be surprised to know, the ONLY kind of war that you can legitimately fight. I can list at least four occassions when the USA - a much bigger, meaner S.O.B. than Israel - has suffered the capturing of its military personnel, and not once did it respond with a full-blown war. As for Lebanon being fully responsible - rubbish. Israel made clear that this was NOT its attitude when the war started, as you well know.

The claim made by PETER SM was that Hezbollah fired their rockets indiscriminately at the START, when they wre ambushing that IDF patrol. I quoted from the UN SG's report that shows that this is *not* what happened. You are talking about events later in the war, when Hezbollah had already given up on trying to deter the IAF from attacking Lebanese villages from the air and, therefore, they retaliated against Israeli towns. That is another issue altogether, and takes us too far off-topic to my mind - into the concept of deterrence and the doctrine of MAD. You are weighing in with Something Else. I do not dispute that this Something Else is not important, but I am pointing out that it is off-topic.

do you know who Rachel Corrie is?

What has changed since the massive takeover of Congress by the Dems? What happened to the "the Dems will straighten Bush out and impeach him" crowd?

What proves of the plan of premeditated attack on Lebanon do you have besides the article of Seymour Hersh? Olmert clearly says about a broad military operation in response to kidnapping of soldiers. I remember before the war in Iraq there were plenty of people who never made a mistake before saying of Iraq?s war plan. Now there are people saying about Iran?s plan to attack Israel. Does it mean that Israel now should bomb Iran?s nuclear facilities in order to say letter when Iran retaliates that the war was preplanned by Iran and respectable journalist so and so predicted it a year ago or it has to be only Seymour Hersh?

Egypt makes peace, Jordan wants peace, Syria wants peace and LEBANON? Siniora himself said he rejects all Israeli peace proposals. Lebanon leaves Iran's proxy terrorist militia armed at the border and obeys Hezbollah's orders and stays out of the south. If the cowardly Lebanese would have disarmed Hizbollah in 2000 after Israel withdrew and taken up abandoned Israeli positions Israel would have had no reason for Israel to plan war. What do you expect from Israel when it sees no end in sight to Hizbollah's harrassment and troublemaking at the border? Hizbollah takes orders from Iran and when Iran wants to stir the pot, their monkey Nasrallah responds. That was the cause of the war. Israel and Lebanon have no business fighting - it's in neither country's interests. Such a war only serves Iran. And the Lebanese are too chickenshit cowardly to do anything about it by disarming the Hizbollah cancer. Lebanon sure paid for its cowardice, didn't it?

Jeff hello As an ex military man you put your finger on the spot.Of course as you point out when you are trying to prosecute a war profecionally there is no happy medium.I know it may sound callous,but once a service man/woman be it army,or air-force casualties will unfortunately occur.I have yet to hear of a war without casualties.A very hazardous tho'dutiful job it is. You're quite right that the war should have been fought with the ground forces and the soldiers should have been prepared(especially the reservervists)that had not trained for sometime,and thrown into a new type of battle without prior knowledge.Not very competent officers at the top as well,from we read. Poor boys,Like sheep to the slaughter.Dreadful miscalculation by the politicos.Of course Olmert is still a "novis",Sharon's sudden illness was very unfortunate.He would have had a soldier's judgement from past experience. No repetions of same mistake,if heaven forfend another war is in its ascendant..

Ronnie Wolman, believe me, those Hizbullah guys have only Lebanon on their mind and they just want to keep Israel away from it. Jews keep scratching their heads as to why Hizbullah has a fixation on Israel and forget that Israel occupied 20% of Lebanon for 22 years and Hizbullah was initially created as a resistance to Israel. After Israel withdrew in good part from pressure applied by Hizbullah over the years, it expected Hizbullah to vanish into thin air, which of course it didn't. It was like asking a Jew in 1950 to forget what the Nazis did 5 years earlier simply because the war was over. By the same token, Hizbullah cannot forget Israel's 22 year occupation. I'm sure Ronnie, that if Hizbullah was forced to choose between what is right for Lebanon or for Iran, Iran would lose in a second.

There are strange people here who do not know that to decide who gained (won) and who lost, one has to look at the TWO sides of the ledger; not only the credit (gain) side but also the debit (loss) side. Then one has to calculate the balance and see if the net total amounts to plus or minus. A few people here would look at the plus side and say: Israel devastated Lebanon, killed many Lebanese, and deterred Hizballh. All is true, but this is only the plus side of the ledger. On the minus side, Israel suffered ober 150 dead, the north was bombed badly, and Hizballah succeeded in establishing a deterrence that Israel will now have to take into account. Calculating the balance could be tricky. A human life is worth more in Israel than in Lebanon. Difficult to compare. But in this conflict the sign (+-) of the total balance is easy to determine. You ask both Israel and Hizballah: Are you better off strategically than you were before the war? Hizballah would say: Yes. Israelis know their answer is no. Too bad, Israel lost that war. It should prepare and try to win the next one.

So is Idi Amin. Would you like to be judged by that yardstick? Trust me, my friend. There's a lot that we can say here that we're not going to say!

So WHAT if there were advance plans? The US , Israel and other nations have an array of 'chess'game plans of diplomatic & military moves to repond to various situations that may occur in the future. It is called PLANNING.SO WHAT? The bad news is Olmert & Peretz handled it so badly despite the pre-planning for exactly this contingency. They failed in the execution as the political leaders and did not meet the modified situation well. They should be fired. BUT it is interesting to learn Israel used some new equipment in Lebanon under true war situation..hopefully the military learned a lot

The 'Hebrew Israelites', i.e. Chicago blacks, living in Dimona are not actually Jews and only have right of residence in Israel. they practice their own unique home-grown rituals. In fact, there is no love lost between them and the Israeli establishment, since they have been caught engaging in anti-Jewish activity in collaboration with the Nation of Islam in USA.

Stephen Connor, there are a few small villages in the south that are mostly Christian. I'll try to find out more about them and get back to you in a few days about it. Thanks.

That can't get a job in declining, socialism drained, EU pressured, UK. When facts don't work for you, mud slinging, name calling, photo bashing a clear picture of the real agenda. With hallucinaceons of the strength of the US, Israel, and Western World, possessed by His Palestinian "Roots" scenario and dreams of reclaiming Jenin as its "conquering hero". With a power structure that includes Sullivan, Ballistic, Moe, Curly, Larry and others on this panel, guaranteeing better use of their existing wheel barrel financing. Does't understand that politics won't work, and that economic development has a far better chance of success, even for the new "conquering hero"

So in your book if a white person gives a black person a compliment on something, as... maybe he is a talented artist. You reply is oh ya ! and can he sing and dance too. Get real. A compliment is a compliment. as for Uncle Tom , my god get current.

?it has to be sufficiently clear that statement can be read and not only imagined." And they have also to demonstrate Israel recognition through their actions. Besides, recognition is not a favor to Israel but an obligation. Make it clear.

Hello to all of you, My original post simply laid out the reasons, legal and practical, for the military response to Hizbollah's attack. The plan used was most probably devised by Halutz. As has been pointed out recently, it is never a good idea to have an airman as chief of staff. Without doubt, the lack of preparedness in logistics is incomprehensible. Olmert's general inexperience certainly did not help matters. Whether there was a better plan that he could have chosen, besides limiting himself to a few hours' bombing of long and medium range missiles, is not known. History teaches us that in all wars mistakes are made. Yet, I still believe that on balance this war was favorable to Israel. Of course, I may be wrong. In any event, may all those who gave their lives rest in eternal peace.

Do you have a life outside of your obsession with Jews ? For that matter, do you have a life. Do you ever have an original message ? or you just piggy back on everyone else. IF .... i ever look in here , there you are. Do you have a job or this Jewish obsession takes up all your time and you live off welfair ? Read a book. Watch Oprah, get a life.

Tosefta, "Flashman" takes his handle from a character in a series of bad novels glorifying the Colonial era. I think that pretty much sums up his viewpoints.

I cou;dn't care if he were my uncle. I asked you what makes him a definitive source of information and why are his opinions more valid than others - he too has an agenda. I presume it's because they fit in with your agenda - that's how it works. I'm sure there are others who wrote of Hizbollah's agenda and plans to attack Israel (they obviously had these, and they'd been building their stockpile and bunkers for 6 years), who are no less serious and important writers.

That this war was planned, and the plans were not only flawed, but the execution of those plans bungled, only makes the magnitude of Israel's defeat at the hands of an inferior force that much more appalling. Olmert, Peretz and Halutz are even more incompetent than they appeared at the time.

It was high time for Solana to urge the pal to recognize Israel. What you have to do now is to keep the embargo and not to give one more euro in aid to those terrorists. Also you should say your party, now dis-ruling Spain not to finance hamas terrorists againt the EU resolutions. Not to the alliance with terrorists of any kind.

Does this revelation explain why there was such lax security on the Lebanese border even after the abduction of Corporal Shalit? Sounds to me like Olmert had decided upon a war and was gratified to have an incident to justify it.

they are not doing well in Israel! According to Haaretz, they are even discriminated against in housing. Since I have never visited Israel, I cannot say, however, I don't understand why Haaretz would run those series of articles which belie how good they have it in Israel if not true. Regards.

Howdy Walid; There was no plan for Israel to unilaterally attack Lebanon in a premeditated and preemptive fashion without provocation. Are you nuts? If the Lebanese can manage to stay on their side of the Blue Line, then you have nothing to fear from Israel, but if they cross the border in any fashion (including rocket fire) with intent to do harm to Israeli citizens, then that is an act of war and the Lebanese will have to suffer the consequences. I'm afraid that your hero, Nasrallah, miscalculated and caused ten times the casualties and damage on Lebanon as were inflicted on Israel. One more Pyrrhic victory like that and Lebanon will cease to be an independent country and instead be absorbed into greater Syria. Look buddy, don't mess with Israel and Israel won't mess with you. It's really simple.

My post to you was in reply to 137. My response 141 was to Ah.

Your basic error is that Israel made no incursion. The abduction took place on Israeli soild while a hail of rockets came down on a civilian population as a decoy. That makes the rest of your post unvalid.

I neglected to mention in posts #230-1 that Flushman/Hydra is using the following disguises on this forum today: yimiyahu, yirmi, ephraim, barry goldwater. There might be more names he uses, I didn't check carefully. If you want to learn about the mindset and abilities of the Hydra, just take a look at posts #230-1. You can change your name, but not your brain.

From my reading, I found that the arab media is replete with revisionism and untruths. At least the American reports are more factual. It is good to read different sources and then evaluate. If someone is contradicting another source...then one has to do more reading from outside sources, such as scholarly texts, etc to get at the truth.

you accept the polling of shibley telhami the israeli palestinian as clear evidence of palestinian goodwill. only the ignorant would accept information without taking into account the source. shibley telhami is raed saleh of umm al fahm with a suit and the english language at his disposal.there are no other differences between the two men.

It was you who responded to me in my address to Ephraim. Not I to you. For the future: Refrain from peeing in my pool and likewise I will refrain from swimming in your toilet. "Regards."

"I haven`t heard of a single abduction attempt since the war. I think all of Lebanon would now hold Hizb`Allah responsible if another such abduction brought similar reprisals." In a sense you may be right -- but your post unconciously points to the actual mechanism of that success. The war completed Hezbollah's transition from guerilla organization to governmental entity. All round Israel, those areas with governments able to control their citizens have to prevent terrorist attacks from being launched across their borders -- they can be held accountable. Jordan, Egypt, Syria -- now Hezbollah has joined the club. So the moral of the story? Israel should let an effective Palestinian state come into being. It doesn't really matter if Hamas, Fatah, or the Knights Templar run it. If it exists, it will find it to be in its interests to prevent terrorism.

he was the former head of research at military intelligence.he clearly stated that husseinis comments and the trojan horse metaphor were a rallying point for the palestinian vision of palestine from the jordan to the mediterranean. he was telling the palestinians;" let the jews think as they please we know what we want and we will achieve our ambitions for palestine."

Bruriah Sarah, I know the Ya Lubnan site. My problem with it is that it is sponsored by the pro-US, pro-Government faction which means that its reporting is one sided. There are other ones that are anti-US and anti-Government and they are just as biased and I find both groups very tiring.

ethiopia.being a woman of a generous nature you wouild want to help your fellow africans.my information was given in the spirit of your obvious generosity. the arab world frequently make fun of africans.for instance palestinian newspapers always make demeaning jokes about condi's african heritage. in egyptian films they are always used as drivers of cars and made to wear silly uniforms and making clownish remarks. your wish to make common cause with the third world ignores their spurning of african culture.

It's really incredible that such a man can speak Hebrew flawlessly. What else can he do? Does he dance and sing well too?

Walid you are missing one very important part of the puzzle.It is either very much a part of reality or very much a part of the jewish psyche. It is the fact that Hizbullah is not alone.It was formed itself by Iranian guards I believe.It is supplied by Iran.Yes there is the local situation which is a major factor but there is also the general religious commitment that they have and are supported by fundamentalists who are also living it too.These are not pragmatic people.They are an absolute danger to Israel as a fundamenialist group and we have heard non stop how Israel has to be destroyed. This is an absolute critical point.

It does not have much credibility. It's conclusions and bias are almost always known beforehand.

A state of war exists already and had since 1948. Syria is very deposed to beating the war drums and their support for hezbollah shows that they are at least comfortable in a proxy war against Israel. It's a no brainer after 1948, 1967, 1973 and 1982 to conclude that Israel faces a determined enemy in Syria. If and when Syria launches, Israel must be prepared to carry out a degrading of as many important targets as fast as possible. That is called a war plan and anyone who finds this disturbing is living in a fairy book world.

Seems as though she had a tad of a difference in take on that Ethiopian airlift than you do. Regards.

it is all "hot air"; so why are you reading my posts in the first place; I don't recall having addressed either you or your buddy; there is a little arrow button on the right hand side of the computer, in case you hadn't noticed, where you can zip on by mate!!! Regards.

Ronnie Wolman, you are saying almost what I'm saying, that is if you take away Hizbullah's reason for being it would cease to be and all it was asking was to release the Shebaa Farms. Israel has a funny way of thinking. We are seeing that with Syria now. Israel by refusing to talk to Syria is maintaining the hostilities with Hizbullah and Iran. There is something suicidal about Israel.

Google him. Regards.

To fit Israeli actions, the word has become meaningless. It's really code for saying "We are not responsible" and nothing else.

Thank you Mr. Olmert for y o u r truth which definitely is not universal. Your claim ?war planned months in advance? seems to be based on y o u r impressions on Prof. Gabison questions and reaction to y o u r answers on the subject! Taking from the so far published information about y o u r testimony given to Winograd Commission - which still has not be published ?will have to be compared to the possible ?learned objections? upon the written down ?Home Front? preliminary report! Comparing datas etc it is self-understood for a PM in Israel with its particular and peculiar security situation to ask for a choice of war plans taken out IDF High Command?s Drawers for review as per occasion. This as y o u reported in March 2006, where also question whether any specific plans could/ is operational were put forward. ? Those ?Frigidaer Plans.? Those were viewed at the time questions answered, and adjusted after having chosen a time and conditional suitable one but with our fast changing political military picture these plans could not have been kept operational provided specific orders were given to this effect. Nothing was mentioned to keep this chosen plan operational, nothing was said that it was again reviewed prior to the quick decision for action. Y o u r testimonial answer to Prof. Gabison?s questions concerning the belated decision to use ground forces was explanation the UN propose armistice agreement draft was not suitable to Israel?s needs and to its never declared war with its specific goals. These brought y o u to order personally the ground attack prior to the armistice coming into effect at a cost of some 30 dead Israeli soldiers. - What will happen if y o u r impression of being exonerated and will not fit into the forthcoming preliminary Winograd Commission? Please just weigh if y o u r resignation prior to publishing of this report may not beneficiary to y o u and even more so to State of Israel.

I agree with most of what you said, esp about the gov't has ideas and motives which may be different from the people and reasonable Jews should be concerned about their people and what that gov't is doing out of concern for their people. US voters have spoken in the last election and threw out all the bums indicating they do not agree, albeit belatedly, with the gov't actions and people are standing up. Where are our counterparts in Israel who don't agree with their gov't is doing? Are there any? If the US didn't support Israel, probably not many people would give a hoot, admitted. I don't advocate for the Pals per se, however, our men and women are stuck in the ME and it is time for the voters here to have a say in what the gov't supports, don't you think, pro and con. Haaretz had a blog re Jews in US vis a vis Jews in Israel and boy was it an eye opener with many saying the same thing as me and other posters. It is frightening that an attempt to stifle discussion is in the air

http://christianparty.net/blackjews.htm One thing is clear: Gabriel Butler, who came here when he was 8, and his brother Eddie, who was born here, feel as Israeli as anyone else. "We've been here all our lives. I'm as Israeli as it gets," says Mr. Butler Jr., taking a break from recording at a Tel Aviv studio, where he chats with his producer in flawless Hebrew.

Having been a relatively good journalist in the past, Mr. Benn has experienced free fall in the past few years. But he can rest easy for the moment. He hasn't hit rock bottom yet.

Jeff Northridge, I was talking about a plan for a premeditated attack from a year prior to the war and not a contingency plan.

Not only were Ethiopian Jews brought in and acculturated, so were Yemeni Jews, Arab Jews, Indian Jews, French Jews etc. Here is a site which works on assisting Ethiopian Jews make their acculturation: http://www.iaej.co.il/

Walid, We could, perhaps, go through the local mosque but they have had enough trouble with the feds (Rabih Hadad). Perhaps you could reccommend some entities that would pass homeland security muster and would work with Habitat for Humanity to rebuild homes in Southern Lebanon. Any information would help. Peace. Steve

"I forgot to explain the two types of `ron`. There are morons, and lessrons. Are you [Flushman] a more or less? - Mark Lincoln We are familiar with the obsessive Flushman, the shallow thinker, who keeps excreting and flushing into our forums. I will give just two examples that will illuminate the quality of thought we are dealing with; and one good advice to Flushman. Take two spoons of Peptalk-Bismol and go back to sleep: 3. "the palestinian polls financed by europe are designed to elicit the response europe would find acceptable.anyone who takes palestinian polls seriously is almost certainly dim. " How can a dimwit tell who is dim? Here are regular pollsters: "These are the results of the most recent poll conducted March 16-21 jointly by the Harry S. Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research in Ramallah". There are polls by various Israeli papers, including rightwing Jerusalem Post. The Pal Center for Policy and Survey Research is run by S. Telhami, an American academic who collaborates regularly with Hebrew University. A well-respected pollster. Misleading info by Flushman. 4. "palestinians had a plan of stages that first used the comparison of oslo to the trojan horse." - Flushman (describing Feisal Husseini, the moderate) Here is what Husseini explains in the same interview mentioned by Flushman: "Despite the fact that we entered these walls in order to build, unlike the Greeks who entered them in order to destroy, I now tell you all, all these to whom I spoke in a secret meeting during the days of Oslo: 'climb into the horse and don't question what type of material the horse is made of. Climb into the horse, and we shall transform your climbing into that horse into a beginning of a building era rather than an era of the end of hope. And indeed, there are those who climbed unto the horse and are [now] inside [the PA territory] whether they supported the Oslo Accords or not. " Husseini is talking about the PA, which Arafat and the rest would not have been able to get to without the horse (peace process), not about Israel proper. Poor understanding by Flushman.

"I forgot to explain the two types of `ron`. There are morons, and lessrons. Are you [Flushman] a more or less? - Mark Lincoln Mark, for your benefit I will take a look at today's (3/3) Flushman's posts (and a previous one) directed at you and me. Normally I don't read them, but I am curious about your comment. You will see that the man has poor logic, poor understanding, and poor facts. Here is a collection: 1. "let [oil] prices go high and the ingenuity of the west will come into play.we would have massive research into alternatives." Flushman believes that credible research can produce results instantaneously, as fast as he excretes his posts. It takes years, enough time to have a severe global depression. Responding to this point, Flushman "relied" on the economist S. Brittan: "when oil was at 70 dollars [Brittan] wrote that it would be catastrophic were the price to come down sharply.the result would be the search for alternatives would be halted. sounds logical to me". This sounds logical to me too. But if the price should not go DOWN sharply, does it mean that it can go UP sharply? To me this logic sounds moronic (I mean, lessronic). 2. "mordechai gur conducted negotiations with the palestinians: "it is not very pleasant to hear what i hear from the palestinians.they aren;t talking about the house in hebron or on givat hatamar (efrata)they are talking about the university hill in tel aviv" ? Flushman (from a Gur interview). Benny Begin wrote an article for Haaretz (2002) in which he also quoted Gur: "There was no contradiction between what the PLO's leaders were saying publicly in Arabic, and what was being said to Israeli representatives in closed-door discussions, and there was no concession on the right of return of the refugees to their actual homes. Deputy defense minister Mordechai Gur, who conducted talks with the PLO's representatives during 1994, said (Ha'aretz, January 30, 1995), "It's not very pleasant to hear what I hear from the Palestinians. They aren't talking about the house in Hebron or on Givat Hatamar [in Efrata - Z.B.B.]. They are talking about the university hill in Tel Aviv" As one can see, Gur quotes the Palestinians on the issue of the Right Of Return, not on destroying Israel. There is no secret here. They still claim this supposed right, but will give it up for some concessions, as they already admitted. Misleading Flushman, or too dumb to understand?

The Dhimmi Still, as "People of the Book," Jews (and Christians) are protected under Islamic law. The traditional concept of the "dhimma" ("writ of protection") was extended by Muslim conquerors to Christians and Jews in exchange for their subordination to the Muslims. Peoples subjected to Muslim rule usually had a choice between death and conversion, but Jews and Christians, who adhered to the Scriptures, were allowed as dhimmis (protected persons) to practice their faith. This "protection" did little, however, to insure that Jews and Christians were treated well by the Muslims. On the contrary, an integral aspect of the dhimma was that, being an infidel, he had to openly acknowledge the superiority of the true believer--the Muslim. In the early years of the Islamic conquest, the "tribute" (or jizya), paid as a yearly poll tax, symbolized the subordination of the dhimmi. Later, the inferior status of Jews and Christians was reinforced through a series of regulations that governed the behavior of the dhimmi. Dhimmis, on pain of death, were forbidden to mock or criticize the Koran, Islam or Muhammad, to proselytize among Muslims or to touch a Muslim woman (though a Muslim man could take a non­Muslim as a wife). Dhimmis were excluded from public office and armed service, and were forbidden to bear arms. They were not allowed to ride horses or camels, to build synagogues or churches taller than mosques, to construct houses higher than those of Muslims or to drink wine in public. They were not allowed to pray or mourn in loud voices-as that might offend the Muslims. The dhimmi had to show public deference toward Muslims-always yielding them the center of the road. The dhimmi was not allowed to give evidence in court against a Muslim, and his oath was unacceptable in an Islamic court. To defend himself, the dhimmi would have to purchase Muslim witnesses at great expense. This left the dhimmi with little legal recourse when harmed by a Muslim.(4) Dhimmis were also forced to wear distinctive clothing. In the ninth century, for example, Baghdad's Caliph al-Mutawakkil designated a yellow badge for Jews, setting a precedent that would be followed centuries later in Nazi Germany.(5) http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Jews_in_Arab_lands_(gen).html

What are you gonna do whack me, you idiot!!!

the price of tea in China? But thanks, that was might benevolent of you to take the Ethiopians, although for obvious reasons I do not know if my family is from Ethiopia. However, what is your point? Regards.

http://yalibnan.com/site/

Howdy Kath'; PM Olmert was obviously presented with an entire spectrum of possible responses by the IDF including a "proportional response" to the conquest of all of Lebanon. He chose a mediocre option which placed too much emphasis on the IAF and which restricted IDF ground forces to temporary incursions and retreats. This may have been due to a misguided attempt to minimize Israeli casualties. However, a protracted war always results in more casualties. Olmert should have gone with the all-out ground offensive to seize and hold southern Lebanon between the Blue Line and the Litani River after the first week instead of waiting until 48 hours before the UN ceasefire was to take effect which wasn't enough time to get the job done. I don't know what it is with these politicians. They always seem to think that a long, protracted, "limited" war is going to minimize the casualties on both sides whereas the opposite is the case. If you go to war, then don't pull your punches & get it o

When you deeply love your homeland, you do not destroy it but respect as in living in peace with the land and taking care of the land. We still attempt to live in harmony with our ancestorial as Lakota people to honor our creator. We live as naturally as still possible which keeps 80 per cent of the Lakota in poverty. We stand on high strong moral ground.

Are you mocking with that phrase?

Before you start sliming your neighbors lack of interest in Africa, take a moment to consider your own post. If Israel had any interest in blacks, you would brought over 100000 blacks regardless of their ethnicity or religion. Israel's interest was sectarian in nature and determined by religious affiliation. Your compassion was extinguished by religious sectarianism.

Stephen Oh dear,so you are going to arrange for a meeting to help Hizbollah because they only use the "dosh" to help their own supporters,WOW for you.You sound demented,to help a terrorist group? Are you kidding me? Hey Stephen,I noticed how you spellt Hiz-Allah,confused or befuddled,or better still an ISMers? Are you? Failing the two mentioned above,what would your President think if you were caught going against and defying "The Homeland Security" effort.Who are you really hmmmmm??

Not the same thing at all. Any government in any country in the world that does not have plans for a response if that country is attacked should be prepared to resign. Unfortunately, the Haaretz headline does not make for clarity

while not a subscriber to the conspiracy theory, the story coming out of Tel-Aviv proves that Israel and the US conspire to commit cold blooded murder and conspired to destroy Lebanon in a way to weaken the apposition and to strengthen the government of Fouad Synoura. Killing over a thousand innocent Lebanese and the destruction of the infastructure and the dropping of over a million cluster bombs is nothing more than a pre-medidated war crime and for that Bush, Olmert and Rice should face the international court of justice, if there is justice left in the West. I was never convinced that the death or kidnapping of couple of soldier would be a cause to destroy a country. How many Egyptian or Jordanian border guards did Israel kill and how many prisoners of war did Israel kill and murder in cold blood. Perhaps this is the new and modern Judiasm, where racist Zionism have replaced Judiasm. Does any one within the Jewish community feel the sense of rage or shame.

I love your ability to make my heart smile. Thanks for you balanced responses.

Gabe, on the contrary, the Nahar newspaper is just about the most respected Arabic-language newspaper in the Middle-East but as of late it has ceased being neutral in its reporting and has taken sides with the pro-American, pro-government faction which is against Hizbullah. Consequently, you would not find any favourable reporting on Hizbullah there. Despite its political leaning, Nahar remains an excellent paper.

Gabe1 The parties surely will have learned the lesson and will now be ready(one hopes)not to repeat their mistakes.And,God forbid,if we have to angage in another war,the enemies will be crushed without mercy. If it comes to pass,the IDF will have learned from this past experience and ready to prosecute a war as it should be. As for the tunnels in the Arab territories:The IDF is not humbly sitting by,and are doing their best to find and destroy them. Did you read about the trapped tunneler terrorists found and had to be rescued by the PA? Now this comes from the "horses mouth"And are not even ashamed to announce it to the world.The world still closes its eyes and ears to the scenario playing up. This job will be an ongoing affair,and keeping our service personnel busy for a long time to come.Sorry to say................

Post 48 asked "If Mexico sent in their army to kidnap U.S. soldiers on U.S. soil, would their be an American response?" That isn't as much a hypothetical as you would want us to believe. The Truth is that the US response to over 200 armed Mexican Army incursions on US soil over the last 10 years is to open up the US/Mexican border to increased Mexican truck traffic, impliment more NAFTA trade provisions, and send Prez. Bush to Mexico for smiling photo opportunities. The Truth is that the US did NOT launch a full-scale war like Israel did in Lebanon. Most US citizens don't even know it is happening. That's because the US doesn't want a war with Mexico. On the other hand, Israel wanted the war with Lebanon, so Israel went straight to escalating a full out war. Israel could have responded with action short of full scale war. Now Israel wants war with Iran and Syria, so Israel will escalate at every opportunity. http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_3430815

ChanahS, you addressed your comment to #141 which is me at this point but could become another if Haaretz inserts a late post in there somewhere. If it is meant for me, I did not say or insinuate that Hizbullah was in cahoots with anybody on the abduction. I was commenting to "Your Israeli Neighbour" about his statement that the war meetings happened after and as a result ofShalit being abducted, which wasn't the case.

Johnboy Excuse me, but it was not just a poke with a stick.They entered into a sovereign country,kidnapped two soldiers,and pursued by the constant rocket attacks into civilian areas. Even hospitals,and the Haifa refinery,bears thinking about. Thanks to the shelters provided to all Israelis there were only a few killed.But to me one *is one not many dead*!! And the ones that died,were either negligent in not sheltering through carelesness unfortunatly. That aside,your propaganda machine is accelerating as usual by going overboard. The raid was not a "pretext" as you suppose whether by Halutz's desire to beat someone up or not. You are twisting things to suit your perseption.Funnily enough,Hallutz was not an IDF man,rather an IAF one. Frightening neighbours is your false premise Little Johnnyboy. Whether article 51 is being frowned upon or not,would not be acceptable to the country concerned when it is being attacked,thus not applicable. END

Ballistic, in case someone would doubt Seymour Hirsh, his reputation is so solid, he would not risk it for the sake of one story. He is a Pulitizer Prize winner for journalism having first earned his reputation with the My Lai Massacre story in the 60s about the American massacre in Viet Nam and more recently for having broken the Abou Ghraib Prison American military scandal in Iraq. Not long ago, he wrote about how America is preparing a war on Iran. He hasn't made a mistake yet.

you should know that israel has brought over 100000 jews from ethiopia.you will not hear of our neighbours investing their time in africa.in fact africans are the butt of jokes in egypt.recently a sudanese woman complained bitterly on al jazira about the portrayal of blacks in egyptian movies.

The incursions are not black and white.They have always been defensive. As for Shebaa farms,I would imagine that Israel would gladly give them up for a comprehensive peace but its really difficult to acheive this with the constant sabre rattlings of the people that support Hizbullah such as Iran and Syria. So why give the farms up? Most Israelis would give them up as you must know for a true peace but we know Hizbullahs intention.There is much water and blood under the bridge but until the arabs take a profound new stance and accept Israel not too much will happen.Israel like the Palestinians themselves are being used by the different factions in Arabia and Iran as scapegoats. Until you truly vote and fight for democracy and a change of attitude to Israel and the Palestinians there can be no peace and little or no transfer of land.Im sure you understand Walid that most Israelis feel this way,the few fundamentalists in Israel are not significant and only a factor under Israels duress

and thus violated a ceasefire with the terrorists.according to the shin bet samahadna killed hundreds of israelis.why would israel leave him alone?

Howdy Walid; The fact that the IDF has contingency plans to cover every possible response in the event of the outbreak of hostilities between Israel and any of her less-than-friendly neighbors does not mean she initiated the conflict. The recent war between Lebanon and Israel was caused by an unprovoked ground incursion by Hezbollah onto Israeli sovereign territory which caused the deaths of three IDF soldiers and the capture of two others plus the simulataneous firing of 40 Katyusha rockets at Israeli civilian population centers as a diversion before any Israeli response whatsoever. You can try to spin it any way that you want, but it was Hezbollah who started it. Contingency plans are not construed to be acts of war. In fact, during 1920's and 1930's the U.S. War Dept. (now Defense Dept.) had war plans for the U.K., Mexico, Japan, etc., but it took Pearl Harbor to light the fuse.

Stephen Connor, thank you and your (Quaker)Society of Friends for your effort in helping. That Hizbullah does not help Christians is not true. When teams of volunteers went to the areas hit to reimburse those who suffered losses, they also knocked on doors of Christians who had also been hit. Now both Moslems and Christians are waiting for the government to pay up its share of the costs and to rebuild the bridges but it isn't; something like what the Israeli government is doing to its Jewish and Arab towns in its north. Hizbullah was also providing food and medicine to Christians who chose to remain in their homes during heavy shelling. What America did last week, was to put Hizbullah's reconstruction fundraising charities in the US on the terrorists list and shut them down. The local government has received over 2 billions in aid but is still delaying in using the money to rebuild, keeping the Shia under siege.

what a loathsome man. tosefta also said "all israelis are nasty". let him deny saying these words of betrayal.

is tosefta asking israel to be a toady like him?

There were close to 4000 rockets that fell on northern Israel last summer. There are a lot more than that in southern Lebanon now. Don't know how many and don't WANT ton know.

an act of war.israel is fighting a group that used body parts of naval commandos to taunt the jews.large photographs of human remains were placed on the border with israel.

hizballah when it is no longer in lebanon?the united nations demarcated the border and recognised the blue line. why would hizballah want to fire at a state that lebanon no longer has an argument with? so exactly which agreement is mr servile referring to?

i read loud & clear. u sound naive. israel is always training to respond. olmert & the left are playing into the hands of the jew-haters by agreeing with them. olmert & the left & apparently you too, have fallen into the arab trap. soon the un will condemn israel & the us will not be able to veto it!!

Walid you know that this is a downright LIE and I am sorry that is even considered you a Moderate and a Friend. Sheba Farms is not a settlement and only has a base nearby called Har Dov.If you Lebanese did not abrogate the peace treaty that was signed by Israel and Lebanon and dismantled Hizbulla there would have been no Lebanon2 and you could have rebuilt by now, and no security Zone in South Lebanon. And who know maybe the UN would have agreed that Shaba Farms was Lebanese and you would have it back by now. Please don't distort history Hizbulla style. It does not become you.

All governments, the US, Israel, Britain, the Russians, the French, pretty much everybody employs War Planners. Their jobs are to draw up plans, often alternative versions of plans, which may or may not be used should the need arise. The fact that Israel made war plans or that the US had or has plans is not evidence of inherently hostile intentions. Plans are drawn up by responsible governments "just in case".

the plan to invade lebanon was predicated on a precipitating event which was supplied by the idf incursion into lebanon where three soldiers were killed and goldwasser and regev were captured. these soldiers were sacrificed in order to provide the pretext for unleashing the murderous carnage on lebanon in the ensuing weeks. aggressive war is a crime against humanity and the israeli civilian and military leadership should be held to account for it.

I venture to say to you that basically all Jews support Israel. I doubt that they would call themselves Zionists, because the word is gradually becoming like a slur, like the N-word, but I definitely think that Jews worldwide support Israel. The reason for this, Ballistic, is simple - it is our family, our people. How could we not support it? Do we agree with every single policy of the Israeli government - of course not, every Jew has a different opinion on settlements, Lebanon, etc. But your basic bias and unfairness for the Jewish people is that you blame the country for policies you don't agree with, yet while you acknowledge that you yourself do not agree with every policy of the American government. Thus, if Israel should be on some terror list for "occupying Palestinian land", shouldn't also the US be on some terror list for occupying Iraqi land? You are a mass of contradictions, ballistic, because you have made it a life commitment to be a lawyer of the Palestinians...

Does that mean you might just go ballistic? Don't worry, I've got the cure. "Regards" BMD. You know. Like in ballistic missile defense... BTW, keep up the hot air.

johnboy has been on the site for awhile and has never once had a good word for israel.it has been animosity and putrid hatred all the time. so why would the servile tosefta make common cause with such an individual?could it be servility for servilty's sake.is tosefta a born toady?

You have no "moral authority" to perform any comment on this forum. You are a Racist by nature. According to you, all Israel citizens are: CRETINS,IDIOTS,RACISTS,... I do not know who you are or which moral values guide your life But there is one thing you should realize, YOU DO OWN AN APOLOGIZE REQUEST TO WHOM YOU HAD INSULTED !!! I would like to take the opportunity and denounce - the so called - "Marilyn" , for breaching Haaretz Forum Guidelines Item 4. Let her have the chance to apologize, otherwise she should be banned !! P.S. Yes,this is a formal complain to Haaretz Please see Marilyn posts dated: 25/02/2007,15/11/2006,9/02/2007

that pre-dates the withdrawl from lebanon in may 2000 should still be in force.that agreement when israel was still in lebanon said no firing on civilians. israel left in may 2000 and barak said any firing(any firing) on israel would be met with a severe reaction. why should that servile illogical creature tosefta think the agreement with hizballah is still in force?

This is not what Olmert says. "his decision to respond to the abduction of soldiers with a broad military operation was made as early as March 2006" In other words, IF there was another abduction of Israeli soldiers, Israel would respond with a broad military operation (as compared to previous instances when Israeli soldiers were abducted). This is called a contingency plan in case of attack, and not a plan to attack first. Who the hell is Symour Hersch and what makes him such an authority?

"for occupying Pals land and whacking them in furtherance of it!" In case you didn't know that, Nevada has been occupied twice - once from its native inhabitants, and the second time from the Mexicans. Currently, native Americans live on "reservations", and Mexicans wash dishes without rights under the title "illegal aliens". So until you leave your occupied land, you have zero right to speak of Israel "occupying" land. And I am aware that the UN sec. council has not condemned the US for its occupation. How could it - you have a veto, and on top of that contol 25 percent of global capital. Now Ballistic, just for the record, I know I am being facetious. But the problem with your statement is, every single human being on earth occupies land that was formerly someone else's. That is why we are humans - we migrate. What is your problem with Jews living in the West Bank? Why shouldn't they? Why do you call yourself a peaceful resident, while an Israeli who lives in the West Bank "squats"?

You are just hoisting your own prejudices at us. Nasralla is not popular at all with the Christians and losing popularity with the Shia as a result of the Israeli devastation and the slow rebuilding and restitution process. Read Naharnet which is a Lebanese paper. Or are they unreliable?

Hezbollah thought they would get away witgh this and have 2 soldiers for ranson. No they did not ever think Israelwould respond the way they did. Lets write Israels response up to enough is enough. Now Israel has to put these Syria, Iran and Lebanon on notice next time will broing the full might of Israel down your throats. Yes John I know I will get a nasty response from you saying talking about all out war is nuts but after all this is all these people understand. If they really wanted a future for their familys and their people they wouldn't be doing the nonsense they do

you must be something left over from the last australian ice age.ben alofs i gather still says "far out".

Tom, Olmert is not saying he used the kidnappings as a pretext but rather that he originally planned a wide offensive should such a (considered strategically threatening) move take place in addition to the existing build-up and prior attacks. Anti-Zionists are missing the larger points that: a) Hezbollah did widen the war, b) it makes no difference whether the war was pre-planned or spontaneous, either way Israel launched a wide offensive in response to a kidnapping AND build-up and prior attacks of Hezbollah (in violation of UN resolutions) on their border, and c) no, he is not telling the truth. Incidentally, Bush had nothing to do with this. This is not a cowboy drama with white hats and black hats over there. Real life, etc. More messy.

Please take a look at what is happening in Gaza at this moment in time. Weapons smuggling by the Ton and fortifications being built right under the nose of the IDF who is just looking and reporting. Look what is happening in Lebanon at this moment in time. I venture to say that the bunkers have been rebuilt as well as their rockets and probably with advanced ones.And what is our week kneed govenment doing about it. KLUM. And I bet you when soldiers start dying some PM Spokesman will get up and say with a straight face "WE DID NOT KNOW". The response must be NOW,NOW,NOW not when it is too late

Truth is not hard to find. Look up military contingency plans. Every country has them. It would be stupid to not concern oneself with an inevitable. We had them in case of Russian first stike during the Cold War. JEEZ!!

You are 100% correct in your thoughts. Time for playing games with these idiots have ended. Israel needs to tell Syria and Iran and Lebanon exactly what you have written and no more measured responses. JUst do what needs to be done to make Israel as safe as possible. These countries need to know that Israel does have the capability to do some real damage to these countrys if this persists.

pre-natally

Ronnie Wolman, I don't know anymore what Nasrallah's agenda is anymore. Since the Israelis left Lebanon in 2000, it continued daily incursions into Lebanese airspace and territorial waters to harass our fishermen. Hizbullah was formed to counter the Israeli occupation of 20% of Lebanon since the early 80s. Hizbullah then kept asking for the return of the 33 sq km Chebaa Farms captured in 67 to finally disarm but Israel repeatedly refused saying the Farms belonged to Syria. For as cheap as 31 sq km, Israel could have put an end to Hizbullah as far back as 6 years ago but Israel didn't seem in a hurry to lose Hizbullah for some reason or other. Now Hizbullah are demanding more from the Lebanese government to lay down its arms. Israel blew a good opportunity for all of us. I think Chebaa farms is where Israel settled its Ethiopian Jews, but I'm not too sure.

See you are up to your usual fake IDs to make a personal point. Why not steal a look-alike ID instead of coming up with these way out, never been posted IDs. Get a life, and pray!!! Bev will probably respond to you like she did before. And, perhaps you could address some of the issues, eh? Idiot.

article published LAST YEAR!!! According to him, they were NOT contingency plans, there was gonna be a war whether or not there was any contingency. Strange Cheney, the usual denier, said nothing even though press tried to get him to comment. Anyway, doesn't matter, unless Hersh is a soothsayer, his article gives to testament to exactly the truth as Olmert apparently laid out to his superiors. Regards.

So now you are saying that Israel was in cahoots witth Hizbollah to "arrange" the kidnapping and Hizbollah's rocket attack on Israeli civilians as a pretext to go to war. And why do you think Hizbollah would cooperate with such a scheme - knowing that the Lebanese would bear the brunt??

Johnboy, you are right that The Hizballah rocket fire related to the kidnapping was directed against Israeli military targets, not against civilians. Here is the earlyHaaretz report on the incident: "Two Israelis were wounded when gunmen in Lebanon began pounding the IDF`s Zarit position and other posts along the border before 9 A.M. According to Al-Manar, Hezbollah kidnapped the two IDF soldiers at 9:05 A.M. and transferred them to a safe location." - Haaretz , July 12th As you can see, the fire preceded the kidnapping. Israel understands it as a diversion fire, away from the scene of the intended kidnapping. In the fog of war that followed the Israeli reaction, the rockets were described as targeting civilians. No, they targeted military positions, and had Israel followed the old rules of the game with Hizballah (in effect since 1996) it would have replied by targeting military targets, not civilians. Haifa and the Galilee would have been left out of the fighting.

Seymour Hersh is a very accurate, well respective invetigative reporter who has been around for years. Unless he is a soothsayer, he wrote a very detailed article in the New Yorker magazine LAST summer outlining the details of the plan that Olmert is just getting around to admitting/laying out to the Israelis. Oh, and before you say it, he is Jewish, quite well respected and always seems to have 'access' to stuff not yet known to us in the US. In other words, he 'exposes' folks. I guess from your post, he is a 'soothsayer' saying almost one year before today what olmert now is saying. Regards.

They were not war plans. They were plans of response in the event Israel is attacked. There is a big difference.

I haven't heard of a single abduction attempt since the war. I think all of Lebanon would now hold Hizb'Allah responsible if another such abduction brought similar reprisals. As long as any abduction is not while an IDF soldier is over the border in Lebanon (a new public relations nightmare). I am, by the way, beginning an effort in my church, The Ann Arbor Friends Meeting to raise money for rebuilding South Lebanon. Apparently, Hizb'Allah only aids its own supporters and the US is not doing enough to help out. Any Lebanese contacts out there in "talk back land" would be extremely helpful. Peace. Steve

I guess you don't even believe Olmert. Apparently, you didn't read the article and so publish the usual long list of your 'facts'.

for occupying Pals land and whacking them in furtherance of it!

Have any country started war just by mere kidnapping of soldiers . Instead of targettin the culprits , israel was involved in Destruction of civilian infrastructure on a large scale thats too preplanned ...huh dude it seems , govt of israel should be booked under war crimes ? Isnt it ? God bless ....

Question is what is the difference between zionists and Jews, plain ole Jews. They are not all one in the same as you would have us all believe, nosiree, they are not. In fact, there are zionists who are NOT Jews. So what is your definition, and while you are defining, what's up with that bloodline?

Do you subscribe to this? Rostow's President, Lyndon B Johnson agrees with this view: We are not the ones to say where other nations should draw lines between them that will assure each the greatest security. It is clear, however, that a return to the situation of June 4, 1967 will not bring peace.