Pro-Mideast in America: Getting past 'Pro-Israel' and 'Pro-Palestine'

I couldn't agree more with this article- the Israeli-Palestinian conflict polarizes people like no other issue I know of. There are points in history where I think Israel was in the wrong. There are points in history where I think Palestinians were in the wrong. This issue is not black and white. Bradley Burston stated it perfectly; "It will require a conscious decision to get past the idea that Israel must lose if Palestine is to win, and vice versa." If only more people could realize this. I lived in Jerusalem for a while and could empathize with both sides of the conflict on various points. The issue is very much grey.

"And the difference is that your initial disclaimer was missing in Gaza i.e. The Goldstone report formed the opinion that those deaths resulted from IDF actions that *were* (at best) deliberately indiscriminate *or* (at worst) deliberate"(Johnboy) But Goldstone's conclusions are being challenged and NOT just by Israel. Many claim that his conclusions were pre-determined and dictated by a corrupt and biased United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC). Nor was it a proper judicial outcome it was just a fact finding mission that presented the facts as claimed by ONE side only, not the other ... "The respective death tolls are therefore immaterial i.e. there was a FUNDAMENTAL difference in **intent** between the USA/NATO forces in Afghanistan and the IDF forces deployed against Gaza."(Johnboy) We don't even know that for sure because it seems that the UNHRC only sees fit to investigate the acts of small countries who have no political clout. Nevertheless, I do believe that NATO troops, like Israeli troops, adhere to standard procedures designed to minimise civilian casualties. The fact that civilians nevertheless do die in cross fire shows that it is impossible to STOP civilian deaths. Israel cannot do it just the same as NATO does NOT seem to be able to do it. Especially since both the Taliban and Hamas use their own civilians as shields ... That's the REAL WAR CRIME Johnboy and the UNHRC refuses to do ANYTHING about it. Tell us why Johnboy? Could it be the influence of oil money and the Arab/Muslim lobby perhaps?

"es, Sharon as a Israeli citizen has some right to go to the grounds of the mosque, but here`s the "rub": ---why 1100 soldiers...that`s beyond body gaurd numbers"(Stephen A) .... Let me think about it for a millisecond ... because the Arabs threatened to riot if a Jewish leader would visit a Jewish holy site. Like I said: THAT is religious bigotry and I find it offensive. I bet you would be outraged if a Jewish mob would try to prevent a Muslim leader from visiting A Muslim holy site in Jerusalem ... "it started the second intafada...which is why Arafat couldn`t accept barak`s proposal"(Stephen A) I thought you said in your earlier post that Sharon visited the Temple Mount in 2002. I remind you of that to show that your grasp of real history seems tenuous at best (no offence intended). But in any case. You have it back to front. What really happened was that Arafat could not bring himself to negotiate a peace deal. And since he felt cornered, Bill Clinton was pressuring BOTH sides to conclude a peace deal, Arafat used Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount, to whip up a riot, cause violence and scuttle the negotiations. That was Arafat's response instead of agreeing to the compromise that Bill Clinton was pushing for. Here is an interesting Video for you to learn what really happened: http://www.bollywoodsargam.com/video_todayfeaturedvideo.php?blockbustermovieclip=HcSYUItDdZc----Bill_Clinton%3A_Arafat_Peace_Talks_at_Camp_David_featured_hollywood_blockbuster_video.html

and so can many people in Israel. If there would be no violence once it is implimented, it would work. If there was violence from those who want to sabotage, the IDF would quickly occupy the WB again. right now, most Israelis simply don't trust that there won't be violence and that 2 states will actually lead to peace. help us convince them.

TR: "I am not saying that the killings were deliberate, far from it. What I am saying is that they were very difficult to avoid in this type of warfare that the Taliban are waging against NATO troops .." Granted. Now, onto the difference..... And the difference is that your initial disclaimer was missing in Gaza i.e. The Goldstone report formed the opinion that those deaths resulted from IDF actions that *were* (at best) deliberately indiscriminate *or* (at worst) deliberate. The respective death tolls are therefore immaterial i.e. there was a FUNDAMENTAL difference in **intent** between the USA/NATO forces in Afghanistan and the IDF forces deployed against Gaza.

..Let's start with Sharon on Temple Mount... Yes, Sharon as a Israeli citizen has some right to go to the grounds of the mosque, but here's the "rub": ---why 1100 soldiers...that's beyond body gaurd numbers ---don't hold me to #'s: 7 or 8 teenagers boys dead from throwing stones/rocks...dozens of youngers injured....this is asymetrical as it ever could be.. ---it started the second intafada...which is why Arafat couldn't accept barak's proposal; 2nd reason was the dividng line between the 2 states. Too many check points inside the West Bank and water also was a unspoken negociating item..

and disarming the terrorists, destroying their terrorist infrastructure and freeing our soldier held hostage by a popularly elected terrorist government. Hopefully, the conflict will not end prematurely this time by Israeli government decree, before the conditions for a lasting peace are achieved.

Allow Hamas to fire rockets from gaza? If 1 mortar, or rocket comes into israel does that break the cease fire? BECAUSE CONTRARY TO TW BULL SHIR YOU ESPOUSE ROCKETS DID COME FRONGAZA INTO ISRAEL DURING THE JUNE CEASEFIRE THAT YOU ALWAYS LOV TO TALL ABOUT. IT'S JUST THAT YOU ARE WRING AMD YOU NEVER EVEN SEEK TO REFUTE YOU JUST MSKE THE SAME DUMB ASS COMMENT IT'S. UNFORTUNATE THAT THE WORLD HAS MORONS LIKE YOURSELF HOWVABOUT YOU EXPLAIN HOW A CEASE FIRE CSM NE IN PLACE AMD MORTARS AND ROCKETS CAN GO FLYING INTO ISRAEL WHILST HAMAS IS MAINTAINING A CEASE FIRE?

"And see that there is no comparasion in Sderot with the damage and casualty toll in Gaza. In 8 years in soutern Israel 8 people died. Israel murdered 339 people in Gaza on the first day of Cast Lead and had killed hundreds each time in several previous incursions." The Palestinians had plenty of warning over the years. There is no way S'Derot should have to endure daily barrages of rocket fire. Just because the stronger force inflicts more casualties, doesn't mean they weren't attacked first. And they were attacked throughout Cast Lead. The Palestinians could have said, "Enough!" at any time. Instead, they continued launching rockets.

"Happy to see that NATO has changed their approach. Maybe Israel should think about capruting hearts and minds too?"(Clarity) Good luck to NATO, I hope they meet with success. If they do, then perhaps they could try and impart their new knowledge and experience to Israel. But let's NOT jump the gun yet. As we speak now, the civilian deaths have escalated in Afghanistan since Obama came to power ... By the way, Israel has a much harder task in front of it because it is fighting for it's home land which a majority of Palestinians claim to be THEIR own home land. That is what's known as a zero sum game which NATO does not have to contend with ...

"Happy to see that NATO has changed their approach. Maybe Israel should think about capruting hearts and minds too?"(Clarity) Good luck to NATO, I hope they meet with success. If they do, then perhaps they could try and impart their new knowledge and experience to Israel. But let's NOT jump the gun yet. As we speak now, the civilian deaths have escalated in Afghanistan since Obama came to power ... By the way, Israel has a much harder task in front of it because it is fighting for it's home land which a majority of Palestinians claim to be THEIR own home land. That is what's known as a zero sum game which NATO does not have to contend with ...

"I`ll never forget Sharon walking on the Temple Mount w/ 1100 IDF soldiers. It was Sept `02 before the holidays"(Stephen A) Actually it was on the 28th of September 2000, in the wake of Barak's Camp David peace offer, which Bill Clinton applauded, when one of Israel's leading politicians and a war hero (albeit one with flaws) went on a walk on one of Judaism's holiest sites. And what was the result? The Palestinian Arabs rioted ... Personally I call that religious intolerance. Why isn't a Jewish leader allowed to visit one of Judasm's holiest sites? In fact, I find such intolerance by the Palestinian Arabs to be offensive ...

And see that there is no comparasion in Sderot with the damage and casualty toll in Gaza. In 8 years in soutern Israel 8 people died. Israel murdered 339 people in Gaza on the first day of Cast Lead and had killed hundreds each time in several previous incursions. And, if Israel was so concerned about the homemade rockets, why didn't it maintain the ceasefire with Hamas from June 2008?

"I`ll never forget Sharon walking on the Temple Mount w/ 1100 IDF soldiers. It was Sept `02 before the holidays"(Stephen A) Actually it was on the 28th of September 2000, in the wake of Barak's Camp David peace offer, which Bill Clinton applauded, when one of Israel's leading politicians and a war hero (albeit one with flaws) went on a walk on one of Judaism's holiest sites. And what was the result? The Palestinian Arabs rioted ... Personally I call that religious intolerance. Why isn't a Jewish leader allowed to visit one of Judasm's holiest sites? In fact, I find such intolerance by the Palestinian Arabs to be offensive ...

"Happy to see that NATO has changed their approach. Maybe Israel should think about capruting hearts and minds too?"(Clarity) Good luck to NATO, I hope they meet with success. If they do, then perhaps they could try and impart their new knowledge and experience to Israel. But let's NOT jump the gun yet. As we speak now, the civilian deaths have escalated in Afghanistan since Obama came to power ... By the way, Israel has a much harder task in front of it because it is fighting for it's home land which the majority of Palestinian Arabs claim to be THEIR own home land. That is what's known as a zero sum game which NATO does not have to contend with ...

" Arafat is DEAD! Get that through your head. " The mess he created is not. Unfortunately, the opportunities he destroyed are on life support.

"The majority fled to avoid danger and fighting, a sizeable percentage were driven out by Jewish action or threats of action - effectively ethnic cleansing." People fleeing a war zone which THEY THEMSELVES created isn't ethnic cleansing, my poor liar. And the "sizable percentage," you blather about was a very small percentage. Meanwhile, EVERY single Jew was "ethnically cleansed" from the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza. You have a major problem with the fact that they were able to reclaim their properties. Isn't that somethin'!

"The PLO FORMALLY RECOGNISED Israel in a letter from Arafat" The letter contained a promise to make the necessary changes to the Palestinian Authority's charter. These changes were never voted upon, nor were these changes ratified. Meanwhile, you know this, but keep pretending that there was a "formal recognition." BULL. Formal recognition would have put the amendments up for a vote, then the changes would have been ratified. You are a liar, cummings, through and through.

As a palestinian I will go further and say, the holy land can only be holy for and with all of its people, Muslims, Christians and Jews, otherwise it will be the land of devils.

You say "The arabs won't submit to anything but Islam". How about, before he gets extradited to Dubai, have Dagan the superman somehow con the arabs into believing that Judaism is superior to Islam? It would take a lot of cash. Ayatollahs are more expensive than rabbis (by a long shot). If he's any kind of intelligence chief, he's got a room full of videos and stills showing each mullah and ayatollah with a donkey doing things no donkey should do.

..is the latest agit-prop Lefty anti-Israel buzzword invention used to imply fairness while really cloaking a Pro-Pal winning desired outcome ...the logic is: The World is a better place if there is Peace in the M.E.--there can ONLY be PEACE in the M.E. if Israel gives in to EVERYTHING the ARABS want ...THEREFORE logically Israel has to "SUBMIT" ....(THE ARABS won't submit to anything but Islam)...Therefore PRO -Middle East really comes down to PRO-Arab,PRO-PAL and ANTI-ISRAEL -if you cannot see this-you are blind.

Gee #40 --If somebody lobbed rockets into Canada where I live-you don;t think Canadians would be up in arms to get our army to go wipe out the rocketeers AND their supporters? Or if some terrorists lobbed rockets into France or Britain or Germany -those euros would expect their governments to send in the military to stop the terror? IF they wwere sane peoples they would...of course if they were APPEASERS willing to "SUBMIT" to what the terrorists rocket lobbers demanded,then perhaps not... WE KNOW what the Americans would do .. So you a gutless submissive peacenik -OR do you have the spine to fight back with EVERYRTHING YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH (at the risk of being hauled before some manipulated International Kanagaroo Court?

"The imbalance is in education, "worldliness," wide support network (dispora Jews & USA) that feed to an immediate creation of state of Israel in 1947/48. the Palestinians couldn`t "get their stuff" together enough to form a state or govern themselves"(Stephen A) It seems to me that in your above paragraph you somehow hold the "education and worldliness" of Jews against them. But I cannot see why Jews need to be apologetic about the fact that Palestinian Arab society was less advanced. Not any more than Americans need to be apologetic to the Taliban for being more advanced ... "Regardless of who is up and who is down; Americans see Israel as an ally that has gone too far--with American taxpayer money and never returning the favor"(Stephen A) I am sorry you feel that way (those of you that do) but Israel was always in favour of resolving the conflict peacefully: - In 1948 they accepted the two state solution, the Arabs did NOT. - After the 1967 Israel asked for recognition and peace and was willing to concede land in return. - In 2000 Barak offered a peace deal which Bill Clinton applauded. - In 2001 in Taba further improved the offer even though by then in the ensuing Intifada Hamas was blowing up Israeli civilians on a daily basis - Olmert was considered the 2002 Saudi counter offer positively but his attempts to negotiate some details were met with blank refusal. And that has been the continual pattern ever since, Stephen A. As far as "never returning the favor" I am sorry you feel that way Stephen but I disagree. Israel has put a lot into it's relationship with the US. It is America's most faithful ally in the Middle East. And I would run out of space if I would attempt to list all the things that Israel did to show it's appreciation for America's past support. In any case, it seems that you have made up your mind about it. So I won't attempt to dissuade you from your opinion, you are entitled to your opinion.

another point....Your comment is very true and I agree: "you cannot hold all Israelis responsible for a few fanatics." It's the leaders of Israel, that leaves a lot to be desired. Bibi is weak and a joke. Sharon in my opinion was very dangerous when he was in power--(go-d rest his soul in his coma.) Pres Perez, who recieved the Nobel peace prize, stopped working for peace. He got the trophy and the money but I guess deep in his heart Perez didn't want to keep the Oslo Accords alive, even though his name was all over it. I'll never forget Sharon walking on the Temple Mount w/ 1100 IDF soldiers. It was Sept '02 before the holidays. At the same time 22 Arab countries at the League Meeting in Beirut sign the peace proposal--historical activity and Sharon orderd the Ramallah office/residence of Arafat to be bulldozed. That's not responsible either.

Problem, Responsibility, or even liability to care? "One issue that gets little discussion is the IMBALANCE betwen the Jews, who created Israel or returned to Israel, versus the Palestinians. The imbalance is in education, "worldliness," wide support network (dispora Jews & USA) that feed to an immediate creation of state of Israel in 1947/48. the Palestinians couldn`t "get their stuff" together enough to form a state or govern themselves. For 61 years the Palestinians have been playing "catch-up." Why does this have any bearing on the situation with regards to Israeli responsiiblity. how is your point not penalizing Israel for its sucess and abilities in comparison to the lack there of of palestinians? furthermore, if Palestinian lack human capital, i.e. skills of value, how is this again Israel's problem, responsibility, liability to even care? how can you even use this to justify any claim? 1 should be excused because of incompetance, lack of ability education etc...?

Their liability, their duty, their responsibility is to their citizens, not to someone elses citizens, unless they are allied. So yes, a soldiers life is worse less than a civialians, when that civilians is of the same nationality as the soldier. That is the soldiers purpose to protect the civilian, THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO THE ENEMIES CIVILIANS, YES, THE OPPOSING SOLDIERS SHOULDN'T TRY TO KILL THEM BUT AT THE SAME TIME THEY SHOULD NOT TAKE RISK FOR THEM. FOR EXAMPLE, THE IDF SHOULD TAKE RISKS FOR ISRAELIS, AND HAMAS SHOULD TAKE RISKS FOR GAZANS. HAMAS TAKING RISKS FOR GAZAN CIVILIANS MEANS NOT USING GAZANS AS A HUMAN SHIELD OR FIGHTING FROM WITHIN THE CIVILIAN POPULATION IN PLAIN CLOTHES. FOR EXAMPLE, IF HAMAS HAD BALLS, COURAGE AND CARED FOR ITS PEOPLE, IT COULD MEAN THINGS LIKE, BUSING ALL GAZAN CIVILIANS TO A SAFE AREA AWAY FROM THE FIGHTING LEAVING ONLY COMBATANTS IN THE AREA. YOUR THOUGHTS TO THAT?

A solution that pisses off the most people is likely the best one. Israel complicates the move to negotitations because Israel knows the solution will boil down to this: 1967 borders with only small modifications (not Israel takes what it needs for settlements, resulting in a border 20x longer than it need be). A sharing of Jerusalem. A safe passage between Gaza and the West Bank. A solution to the refugee issue that does not disturb Israel's demographic desires. Appropriate security arrangements that do not infringe on either side's independence. Pretty much noone will be completely happy with this. The PA is on board. Israel is not. Hamas' political position is too incoherent to even judge.

I looked up and then "bookmark" the article that you mentioned. There's a lot of "meat" in that article. One issue that gets little discussion is the IMBALANCE betwen the Jews, who created Israel or returned to Israel, versus the Palestinians. The imbalance is in education, "worldliness," wide support network (dispora Jews & USA) that feed to an immediate creation of state of Israel in 1947/48. the Palestinians couldn't "get their stuff" together enough to form a state or govern themselves. For 61 years the Palestinians have been playing "catch-up." Regardless of who is up and who is down; Americans see Israel as an ally that has gone too far--with American taxpayer money and never returning the favor. It is NOW in USA's security interest that Israel & the Pals settle difference and sign a treaty. Israel doesn't care about USA's security or support--its a very ungrateful country. Deputy F.M. Ayalon refusal to meet w/Demo Congresspeople is bad. USA sees this as a snub.

...reality simply refuses to enter into your equations. Arafat is DEAD! Get that through your head. And also learn that there are millions of Palestinians, only a handful have any designs like you have described. You did not mention Israel's right wing yeshiva's, you did not mention the chants of "death the to Arabs" at Israeli ball games, you did not mention the attempt to outlaw the Nakba, the loyalty oaths, the attempts to wipe out all traces of Arab history, the digs under the Temple Mount, the IDF T-shirts etc etc. If you cannot accept, as I always have, that there are two sides, and that Israelis are no less or no more guilty than the Palestinians, then you are part of the problem.

Tim, I have long been opposed to the theory that a soldier's life is worth more than a civilian. Soldiers are meant to fight and lay their life on the line. Children are not. Happy to see that NATO has changed their approach. Maybe Israel should think about capruting hearts and minds too?

"Witness the Afgan/NATO actions in Marjah now, where citizens are to be protected rather than slaughtered. It puts the IDF and Israeli leaders to shame"(Clarity) Since the election of Obama, about 1400 Afghan civilians have been killed as a consequence of NATO operations. I am not saying that the killings were deliberate, far from it. What I am saying is that they were very difficult to avoid in this type of warfare that the Taliban are waging against NATO troops ... Now tell us "clarity" since you are so proud of what is happening in Afghanistan, how come you are so unforgiving of Israel's difficulties in it's fight against a similar type of warfare as the ones that NATO troops experience in Afghanistan?

I will disagree with Ivo. Steve follows a faulty reasoning to it's horrific conclusion. The majority of the population voted for Hamas as the organization that was providing some social services, as opposed to Fatah, which was thoroughly corrupt and incompetent. The world encouraged the election in the name of democracy. Now the implication is that because of Hamas' rockets since that time, the entire population should be made to suffer. Kafkaesque indeed! Witness the Afgan/NATO actions in Marjah now, where citizens are to be protected rather than slaughtered. It puts the IDF and Israeli leaders to shame.

what is little sderot in israel w/no coffins & practically no publicity to those who count heads & can only compare spaces, amounts & sizes, believing they're being wise? now, after cast lead, the song out there is of course, 'israel deserves what it gets' & hamas could easily fire another 8000 rockets without anybody lifting an eyelash. the memory of the order of sequence, ie what preceded cast lead is already washed out. nice to see you quoting kafka, the good wise man from around here. i hope next time you visit sderot, /the time after next time, your cousin, her son & the rest of sderot will have reasons to feel better.

Yes, unfortunately, that's almost all there ever are on the Ha'aretz talkbacks. Lot's of the same people, just shouting past each other using the same arguments: Balfour, 1948, 1967, UN 242, etc. Ironically, it illustrates Burston's point. We extremists of the talkbacks are the very people that prevent any resolution.

i am pro-israel, with final, secure borders. if i could, i would move israel to some far away place, an unkown. but then i remember the desert wind with its unique perfume, the galile and the rose of sharon, zfat winding and cool and jerusalem where one feels so close to something magical-- the dead sea with its treacherously still salt water, the end of the world. israel is for us, and we are for israel. it so happens that israel is in the middle east. there she was born and there she will die. yet, the middle east is as far away as siberia. one day, this all might change, but not in my day.

bradley, you're insight is invariably right on the mark. don't ever let your detractors diminish your resolve. try to remember that for most of them, it's not that they think you're wrong, it's that they don't want you to be right.

Any talk of a common ground sends them into a frenzy of fits.

People who play with matches can suddenly find their houses burn down. Since when has Mickey Mouse been required to be fought with Mickey Mouse? Hamas overstepped the mark and unfortunately those who voted them in copped the consequences of their Government's decision. Those making the decision conveniently hid behind the skirts of those who voted them in causing further grief. They were not men enough to defend their population in uniform like conventional armies do. Pity appalling on all accounts really. You would think there would be demos against Hamas by the civilian population but they still appear to be supporting the suicidal position of Hamas. Regrettably they are bound to once again become innocent victims of any hostilities that ensue.

...article. It is about how Oslo went wrong and it's an eye opener ... "THE DEADLY PRICE OF PURSUING PEACE" http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/the-deadly-price-of-pursuing-peace-15321 By the way, I do share your dismay about Rabin's assassination even though in hindsight, I think that Rabin was too trusting and he got deceived by that arch terrorist Arafat. Nevertheless, I consider Yigal Amir to be a fanatic because his way was not the way to right Rabin's mistakes ... And indeed Rabin's assassin (Yigal Amir) is still paying the price for the crime that he committed. So Steve, you cannot hold all Israelis collectively responsible for what a few fanatics did. Unless of course you believe that ALL Americans are responsible for what happened to JFK and other politicians who were assassinated in America. Anyway, read that article and I would be interested to hear your feedback. That is if you are genuinely non biased and have an open mind to alternative points of view than the ones you expressed in your post.

what the borders.How many times do they need to repeat it? There were no settlemnts or Jews in Gaza till the Arabs came up with their NO peace NO recognotion No negotiations with after the 1967 war. There was no blockade just checks for dangerous goods for many years,something that is always omitted. You also avoid mentioniung the Qassam barrage that accompanied the last Israelis leaving Gaza. The message was clear.No peace!

"They were offered the choice between becoming kings or the couriers of kings. The way children would, they all wanted to be couriers. Therefore there are only couriers who hurry about the world shouting to each other--since there are no kings--messages that have become meaningless." When Israel evacuated Gaza, the people of Gaza could have chosen peace and imported building materials, instead they chose Hamas with its declaration of Israel's destruction and importation of Iranian rockets. Kafka ends his parable: "They would like to put an end to this miserable life of theirs, but they dare not because of their oaths of service."

The day before the Israeli election, I visited my cousin in Sderot. She pointed out across the street where a kassam had landed and shot a nail through her window. She and her children responded to the alarm and were in the bomb shelter. No one was injured. Two doors from her home, her neighbor just managed to gather her children into the bomb shelter before a direct hit (www.migvan.org.il/kasam); no one was injured. A skeleton of a car is left rusting on the side of the road with hundreds of holes sprayed form nuts and bolts packaged in a kassam that landed nearby. My cousin's son is now 10 and has known the 15 second race to safety all of his life. At times, he is afraid to go to sleep. The truth is that when the siren sounds, all of Sderot's residents are injured. For the past nine years, over 8000 rockets have been launched from Gaza into Southern Israel in deadly game of "Iranian Roulette".

for the day as his first contribution towards a safer Middle East. My neighbor showed me the photographs of her family that her 22-year-old son carried in his breast pocket the day he and 16 others were killed in the #14 Jerusalem bus bombing. All the faces in the photographs were unrecognizable due to the nuts, bolts and screws that were used to pack the bomb. I'll remain a "narrow-minded nationalist" and proud Zionist. You can become a "pro-Mideastener" until one day you wake up from your dream-world to the cold reality that our neighbors really don't like us.

If it were as simple as Palastinians wanting to find work and raise their families, there would have been peace and a two state solution long ago. Arafat could easily have had it at Camp David, but he walked out on it. If Hamas were serious about a two state solution, they would say so rather than their 15 year "truce". They don't because it's fundamentally incompatible with their ideology. Sure they may say that if Gaza (under Hamas control) and Palastinians in refugee camps in Lebanon (and their friends from Hezballah) agreed to give up their claim on pre-'67 Israel, they would go along with it, but that's largely because they're pretty certain it won't happen. I'd like a two state solution. But when Palastinian textbooks delegitimize the Jewish people, Palastinian musicians who play for Holocaust survivers are condemned, and Palastinian demographers are physically attacked if they suggest that Lebanese refugees may not want to return, I get the message.

Have I ever let you down?

Wouldn't it be nice if you could just pick out the nice people from both sides to set up your own neighborhood or state. You could call it Bradisraelstine! LOL! Keep up the good work Brad! See ya!

Burston calls for moderation in efforts to find a solution and should be commended for his evenhandedness. Still, as an American, I must be impressed with the reality that the founding of the State of Israel, however justified by the European horror that preceded it, nevertheless involved the displacement of an innocent, indigenous people. That has to be addressed. And as horrendous as the indiscriminate rockets from Gaza must be to the innocent civilians of Sderot, it also must be recognized that if you beat a dog long enough, he will turn vicious and bite. Gentility, gentleness on both sides must be encouraged.

Deep down-whether religious or not-both JEWS and ARABS believe in their STORY PLOTS... For Arab Islamics-that is in Islamic Suprenacism and its ultimate triumph when Allah passes Final Judgement--then even those Jews who survcive as dhimmis to Islamic rule must convert or else sent TO HELL ...If Arab Muslims deep down don't believe this vision as laid out in Islam they are hypocrites and thus BB forcing Peace on them is NUTSO and only a "temporary " lull in the STORY's IMPERATIVE. THe JEWISH End-TIME STORY (erroneous as the rabbis have told it) is that God sends a Messiah to squash the enemy attackers and THEN PEACE ensues forth from Zion...Swords into ploughshares-BUT ONLY THEN --again PEACE logically now -before a Messiah shows up- can ONLY be a temporary respite... THUS BB amd his peacenik dream is logically DOOMED to fall apart-so why bother forcing 2 peoples embedded to their STORIES to become hypocrites and ignore their stories imperatives? Why be Jew or Muslim?

Before begining let's move away from a moral perspective to a legal perspective. Are Geneva Conventions, notably GCIV and Common Article 3 retroactive? NO When were they signed? August 12 1949 When Was the Final Armstice for Israel War of Independence signed? July 20 1949. So if the above is true, IS GC4 and Common Article 3 applicable to events of the 1948-9 war of independence? NO Agreed, or please provide facts for refutation Now the kicker, WHAT LEGAL FOUNDATIONS EXIST FOR UNRWA? NONE, IT CREATED THE FOUNDATIONS, THE RIGHTS PROVIDED UNDER UNRWA DO NOT REPEAT FOR ANY OTHER PERSONS ON EARTH. Furthermore UNRWA began under UN General Assembly Resolution 302 (IV), of 8 December 1949. AFTER THE ALLEGED EVENTS and at a time when those events, where even it they did happen were not ILLEGAL, but if happened like Tarik will state, are surely immoral, hence my opening point. Your refutation, and I am eager to read it. alwayslearning@live.ca

I do live in Europe, my husband if not me has been cursed, and my colleague's kid's Jewish school torched. How much of this is "let's get back at a Jew because of what Israel's doing?" My point is in a democracy we are all responsible for our government because a majority of us voted it in. In the case of Israel this responsibility gets extended to all Jews worldwide; in the case of Gaza not even the voters are held responsible for their government, but barely even Hamas itself.

Good polls, by competent organizations. Not 'push polls' designed to achieve a politically desirable reults. They show consistently that the majority of Israelis and Palestinians would rather see some deal cut so that they could enjoy two nations side by side. But the extremists on both sides use the extremists on the other side as the excuse to perpetuate a war only they enjoy. Mr. Burston is quite correct. Peace would be both Pro-Israel and Pro-Palestinian. And so long as those who believe that one can only be 'pro' either by hating and killing the other, both nations are screwed.

"simple math get rid of Hamas" - Big Sur The excuse used to be Arafat. He's gone and now the excuse is Hamas. Were Hamas to disappear the excuse would be Islamic Jihad, or the PFLP, or the cross-eyed kid on the corner. The PA has certainly held up it's end of the situation, there is little trouble on the west bank aimed at Israel, and more action by Israeli settler against Palestinians than by Palestinians against Israelis. So why not deal in good faith with the PA Big Sur?

'It certainly takes a lot of Chutzpah to squat on stolen land, claim superior rights to the land than the indigenous people, pronounce the conflict "suffocatingly complex", and then cast yourself as a believer in "compromise".' Burston's right in a way. For him, I'm sure it is all suffocatingly complex. Things usually do get suffocatingly complex if one is living a lie.

As a Palestinian, I commend you two. People are so blinded by hate that they simply cannot have an open mind on the subject. It truly is time for people to put aside the hate and begin thinking outside the box on a respectable resolution to the issue. I honestly believe it is in the best interest of the region and most definitely the Pals and Israelis. I still remember my uncle George in Ramallah and how in his last days wanted to get to Jerusalem to visit his Jewish best friend and his wife which he had worked for before the closure. The tears both men shed speaks volumes as to why this can be resolved. My sweet and gentle uncle who couldn't hurt a fly if he tried is your classic Palestinian who lived through the creation of Israel and all the ups and downs. Allah Yirhemek uncle George.

You seemingly don't realize that you are the one trying to overturn clear facts: Arabs were the main reason to make other Arabs move away. If you try to assure anyone of your theory (which is not a "widely accepted view" but yours, an Arab narrative instead of serious history investigation), you have the burden to show some reliable evidence. As simple as that. Hint: reading any Arab newspapers from late 1940's and early 1950's you'll see it with your own eyes. Arabs admit just Arabs brought the naqba to their brethren. Anyway, it's not an Arab good side to reflect oneself hionestly and critically. Culprit is always somewhere else. What about, for once, to try intellectual honesty toward yourself.

"Bradley calls the situation "complicated"..." - Natailie Durson Which bothers you because you would rather it be simple. The problem is complicated Natallie because on either side you have a group of people who have so simplified their perception that, while comforting with shining knights and horrid dragons, it bears no resemblance to the far more mundane and messy real world that most people on both sides live in.

Lisa, If Israel has the 4th largest army Y should it not be allowed to use this ability? Why must it downgrade its abilities for the purposes of giving Hamas an easier chance? I mean honestly, how does that statement make any sense to you. X= really strong, Y =not so strong. Y wants to kill X, should X only fight with their weak hand? How does this make sense, please elaborate. But if your views apply to protecting civilians, what are your views to the following: Israel states, next rocket is all out war, and provides buses for all non combatants to leave combat area, under UN protection, with full right of return to what will later be rubble, rebuit by Israel. In turn, all of Gaza is declared a war zone with only combatants? Would it then be fair? or is it because Hamas doesn't have equal military ability. How is that Israel fault, or even israel's care, why should you give a bigger gun to the a person who wants to kill you? your logic dictates Israel take Risk 4 Hamas Y?

Arnold you missed the point..the turning point for Americans viewing israeli actions started to turn with the 1982 invasion by Def Sec Sharon and his march to Beirut. The Falling out with Israel continued with subsequent battles and actions, where the Americans are viewing Israelis' actions as undemocratic, and threatening to minoriies. Israel is not as great as it once was and its heading in the wrong direction. Lead Cast and the Goldstone Report indicates only some the problems that outsiders see and how Americans are now forming their opinions.

The Quran clearly states that land that has been won for the Umma never again may fall in the hands of the infidels. War is a holy duty till it is reconquered. Formal recognition has repeatedly been explained to the Arab world by Arafat, Abbas and other Pal leaders as a strategic warfare pause (hudna) to gather strength for the next round. I do not think you can ask Israel to trust their fate to a piece of paper while those who wrote it are praying for the future strength to make it disappear all together. And recognition on condition is no recognition. Israel is entitled to a Pal leader who commits blasphemy, i.e who clearly denounces formal recognition as a hudna to win the last round and tells all Arabs it is Recognition as Westeners understand it: internalized recognition (like Germans/Japanese recognized they lost WW II. But it does not mean in my humble opinion the WB is for Israel to grab. Israel is playing the fake recognition game now also with settlements growing and growing

Having been to many, many demonstrations involving Israel over the years, the Anti-Israel groups here in San Francisco, (where they dominate the scene)have made it quite clear. They have been video'd chanting in Arabic "Kill the Jews" and "Palestinan is OUR land and the Jews are our dogs" while fake "peace groups like Women in Black and Jewisah Voice for PEace stand there next to them in support. On many occasions I have been told to "get back in the ovens" and "Hitler should have finished the job" in Arabic accented English. Perhaps Jews would not be so concerned about the Holocaust in relation to this issue if the Palestinians weren't constantly evoking Holocaust immagery and genocidal type anti-Jewish threats.

Hey Mig, tell me, why do you call yourself irish? should you really be honest and say you are british? there is no ireland as far as I am concerned..unless of course you refer to the mudrdering fools like gerry adams and the rest of his terrorist brothers... gaza was offered back right after 1967, in return for full recognition of israel's legitimate right to exits..the arabs said no. period. and so you know migman, the arabs wanted that war..and they LOST! IN SIX DAYS..LOL....you do know there was no palestine before that eh? gaza was egyptian. there was no intifada against egypt????? why not?

He hops into the neighbors' rabbit borrow, throws out Mr. Rabbit, Mrs. Rabbit, and the five little rabbits -- and wonders why we can't all be friends. The thing is, he really is sincere. He's even willing to let Mr and Mrs Rabbit have back part of their borrow. A small part, of course. The undesirable part. ...and they STILL WON'T HUG. See the tears running down poor Hug Bunny Burston's cheeks... It really is touching.

Hey Mig, tell me, why do you call yourself irish? should you really be honest and say you are british? there is no ireland as far as I am concerned..unless of course you refer to the mudrdering fools like gerry adams and the rest of his terrorist brothers... gaza was offered back right after 1967, in return for full recognition of israel's legitimate right to exits..the arabs said no. period. and so you know migman, the arabs wanted that war..and they LOST! IN SIX DAYS..LOL....you do know there was no palestine before that eh? gaza was egyptian. there was no intifada against egypt????? why not?

There can be no lasting peace without justice. Rationality will bring justice, but zealotry will always be a barrier. For every single zealot Palestinian, I see ten zealot Israeli settlers that operate openly and with IDF protection. However every zealot Palestinian plus their family members are thoroughly suppressed by the IDF. There is no balance, but if there were a closure of settlements and a evacuation of settlers that despise Palestinians, a balance could be achieved. However the IDF must also leave the West Bank. The Saudi 2002 plan for peace can achieve that.

what hamas says for western ears versus what they say to an arab audience are 2 VEEEERRRYYY DIFFERENT things. WAKE UP. really? you have a lot of palestinian friends? why am I NOT surprised...your posts are one sided, factually incorrect and full of hate.

So why would they fire rockets at the US? Israel has been imposing massive restrictions on Gaza since it captured it in 1967, first it moved it settlers in there and gave them freedom of movement denied to the existing population. Then it moved out the settlers and tightened the noose even more. And as regards Hamas (or anyone else) recognising Israel could you tell us what Israel they are supposed to recognise? Is it 1/ Israel within the 1967 borders, 2/ the 1967 borders and whatever settlements Israel wants to keep in the West Bank or 3/ all the territory which Israel controls which includes the West Bank and Gaza? Yes, Egypt has a southern border with Gaza but Israel controls the air space and all the waters off Gaza and uses that control to impose its blockade.

...Bronxite proves Bradley's point: "Burston assumes that because he is reasonable and able to see both sides, that his opponants must function with the same tools because they are fellow human beings. It`s not so." Wrong, it is true. Many examples abound. Hamas has made clear that it would abide by any deal Abu Mazen manages to make with Israel, as long as all the Palestinians, in Palestine and the diaspora, vote to accept the agreement. Palestinian PM Sayad Fayyad has said recently that Israelis wishing to stay on in Palestine can do so and be treated as well as Arab Israelis. The average Palestinian, and I know a lot of them, they just want to raise their families and find work. It seems though, people like you outnumber those of us who see both sides and genuinely seek peace ala the Arab Peace Initiative. At the mere mention of any viable deal, Israel's latest coalition government du jour crumbles. I believe there is simply no more chance for a two-state peace agreement.

Burston assumes that because he is reasonable and able to see both sides, that his opponants must function with the same tools because they are fellow human beings. It's not so. Republicans have become famous in the U.S. for their take no prisoners approach. Bi-partisanship in their book is when you agree with them. They lie about Obama being "socialist", and they smile when some of their more flamboyant members jam their opponant's phone lines and burglerize their opponant's offices. In fact, they take pride in it. Palastinains are often no different. They compete with each other in their anti-Israel assertions and in decrying cooperation as collaberation. Burston's article is humanist, truthful and reasonable, except insofar as it assumes that because one acts in a menschlike manner, one's opponants will do the same.

Hamas is the other end of this equation, They put their People in Gaza in Jeopardy, . Not Israel. I wonder sayif chicago was constantly bombarded with even |Catusha rockets if the USA would not retaiate big time. Give Israel a break, you arguement is intelligent , so i ask you to think for a minute on how to react to those who constantly say death to Jews and Death to Israel, and back it up with Attacks on Israel.

Natalie, I don't want to discuss the Holocaust. I want to discuss language and arguments. When you use language like, "Although the Palestinians had nothing to do with the Holocaust" in an argument, all that is needed is to show that 1 Palestinian was involved in the Holocaust to debunk your argument. Understand? or is english not your first language, in which case, I'd love to read your work in your first language; your english skills are impressive. So when you say, Palestinians had NO involvement in the Holocaust, I will retort, Who was Haj Amin Al Husayni, and who is the person in this video next to him? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbP2EyF8d34 MITIGATE YOUR SENTENCE TO DEFEND AGAINST THIS, FAILING THAT, YOU OPEN YOURSELF TO SUCH AN EASY ARGUMENT THAT WEAKENS YOUR ARGUMENT, I'D SAY CREDIBILITY TOO BUT READING A FEW OF YOUR POSTS, LIKE YOUR FLIP FLOPPNG VIEW ON DEMOCRACY AS EVIDENCED HERE: http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1144989.html Hezbollah in Leb?

world know that Cast lead did not have anything to do with constant rocket attacks on Israeli citizens from Gaza. One suggests that you would not have wanted to be a man from Sderot durng these attacks. That arguement you make is dangerous general and all together LAME.

It is one thing to oppose simplistic labels--another to overlook the one-sided pro-Hamas connections of groups supposedly "pro-Israel, pro-peace".

The world understands this.

If you are going to attempt to overturn the widely accepted view of the history of the Middle East with an illogical conspiracy theory, the least you should do is provide some evidence. It is now widely accepted that Palestinians were expelled from their homes in a Zionist campaign of expulsion. While historians debate about the degree to which this expulsion was pre-meditated or merely a consequence of war, your theory is completely off the map of serious historical debate. People who continue to deny that an expulsion of the Palestinians took place in 1948 remind me of Holocaust deniers: same illogical conspiracy theories, same contempt for evidence, same ignorance of widely known historical fact, same racism at the root of their claims.

I agree with Bradley's overall point, but I take issue with presenting the conflict as though it is 2 equally situated sides. There is a HUGE power imbalance (hint: it is heavily tilted toward the side with the 4th strongest military in the world and has U.S. unconditional support). The way this power is being utilized consistently violates human rights, resulting in a humanitarian crisis in Gaza. The number of civilian deaths and injuries creates fertile ground for another generation of rocket launchers. There is currently one state controlled by one side, with two peoples & 3 classes of rights: Jewish Israelis-full rights (unless you are Reform or Conservative, then there are issues), Palestinian Israelis-on paper they have full rights, but in reality there is institutional discrimination in every area of life including healthcare and education; Palestinians in the Occupied Territories-virtually no rights & subjected to daily harassment & discrimination by the IDF & settlers.

Bradley Burston's columns are a beacon of sanity in the poisonous insanity of what passes for public discussion these days. Kol ha-kavod.

You sense oppression is so misplaced. Have YOU been threatened on the streets of Europe? I suspect if you as European Jews if they feel threatened daily as they go about their lives, none but a small minority would respond that they do. So if you haven't been personally threatened, where to get these wacky ideas?

It finally becomes clear how the early writers in the HaAretz Talkbacks are so often dominated by right-wing crankiness and right-wing cranks. I am sure that HaAretz, a well reasoned and liberal newspaper, is not read by so many mean spirited, small minded, and insulting "talkbackers"for its content nor for its viewpoint. It seems that there is a small army of untalented, dyspeptic, would be journalists who have taken on the self-appointed task of souring the day of the normal readership. That HaAretz continues to be read by the sane is proof of its quality jounalism.

Stop with the BS of "The PA has done a credible job of fighting it`s extremists in the West Bank." THE PA CREATED THE VAST MAJORITY OF THESE EXTREMIST OR HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN ABOUT A MAN WHO PROBABLY DIED OF AIDS, HIS NAME WAS YASSIR ARAFAT. OR IS IT NOW THAT HE HAS DIED, MOST LIKELY OF A DISEASE CONTRACTED FROM SCHTOOPING MEN, THAT THE ISSUES HE CREATED ARE NOT THE RESPONSIBLILITY OF HIS PREDECESSORS? Palestinian deserve a gain when the are no more security threats living under their noses. When they fix the security issues they helped create they can gain so much. Its a common false thought that permeates society, that trying deserves compensation, doing the job you are supposed to do, deserves compensation, doing only half of it, deserves little what is the value of half a building? half a bridge? half security? Lastly, to quote Sean Connery of the Rock. "Losers whine about their best, winner go home and F**K the prom queen" a thought too often forgotten in our day

I tell you what I have posted in here how the IDF has helped the Victims of Haiti not just with some money but with Computurised Hospitals the ones that British and American Doctors have askede to come work with. Is that non Holocaust enough for youNatalie? or are you just a liar? We as Jews and as sraelis do this because the once slaves and poor nation that Haiti is we are familiar with.

Hamas is in power, because, whether we like it or not, they did some good originally for the Gazan people at a time when Arafat and co were diverting financial resources meant for the people,into various personal bank accounts(so we're told) They helped in education .health etc. They have this Israeli charter of its destruction, which is why we do not support them now,but at the time they were all the Gazan people had in the way of hope. Bradley Burston,your article is very perceptive and to the point But I fear that no-one will take any notice as they are too firmly entrenched in right wing rhetoric born of thinking in ways that will only lead us deeper into the mud. PLEASE read the article in conjunction with the one about Ayalon refusing to mewet J Street,and with my letter on that article(if published)

the major news groupsIn the IDF Medical Corps Delegation to Haiti which is housed in tents, there were no rods left to brace complex fractures. Each rod costs 5000 Euros. Money is not the problem. There simply isn't any. An emergency room nurse had an idea. She went with with Munitions NCO to take similar rods to a local metal shop where they made dozens of new rods. They continue to save lives.In the IDF Medical Corps Delegation which came from Israel in the Middle East to Haiti, there are American volunteer doctors. They have no other useful installation in which to work in. A doctor and nurse from Germany came. They heard this is best hospital in Haiti. An emergency room team from Colombia arrived with all their equipment and asked if they could set up next to us to be part of our hospital. England is the enlightened country in Europe, the one which has an academic boycott of Israel; twenty British doctors and nurses asked to work with us. In the IDF Medical Corps Delegation to Haiti which is housed in tents, there is a shortage of plaster for casts. An innovative doctor spoke to a Haitian hospital nurse for help, but the hospital could not help. He was sent to an remote neighborhood between the fetid alleys to the Moroccan embassy in Haiti. There, he found a storeroom full of plaster which was brought back to the hospital. The Israeli doctor, by the way, is of Moroccan origin. In the IDF Medical Corps Delegation to Haiti which is housed in tents, there is a delivery room. Babies are born there. Mothers are cared for. Babies that require aid are admitted to the preemie unit. In the IDF Medical Corps Delegation to Haiti which is housed in tents, the law of a patient's rights is observed. His right to privacy is respected. A patient's condition is explained to him in the Creole language via an interpreter. In the IDF Medical Corps Delegation to Haiti which is housed in tents, there are equal rights among all. Equal rights in Haiti, which was a nation of slaves, where even today there exists a great social divide between the rich and the poorest of the world's poor. The IDF Medical Corps Delegation to Haiti which is housed in tents is the embodiment of ultimate human ethics. Brotherhood at its best. The epitome of the verse from the Biblical portion of Kedoshim, "Love your neighbor as yourself."

... A Proposal that saw an end to the siege in gaza with a firm 100% guarantee for security? If these congressman and woman believe what they write in their dribble why don't they state this: A lifting of the siege in gaza from Israel, in exchange for a guarantee: should a mortar, bullet, rocket, for F**Ks, sake a rock will mal-intent come over the border Hamas and all its masters and subsidiaries agrees to relinquish its claim to Jerusalem, a second infraction? Hamas et al, agrees to relinquish its claim to Hebron and so on. In return Hamas can import anything it likes except weapons and certain metals, but concrete, Pasta etc.. no problem. What's unfortunate is that we only get fluff, we get no substance, nothing that has balls, nothing that will move things forward and most importantly, politicians don't speak in terms of value to both parties, they speak terms of value to their bleeding heart constiuents, not the parties who have the power to change the situation

- of the ME, not excluding even one. but currently it also means excluding & blocking out a country that doesn't have anything to do w/the ME, not even in the geographical sense, namely iran. iran is bent on & has made it one of its prime objectives to meddle in the most burning affairs concerning the ME, ie w/israel-palestine & w/lebanon. almost as if it had some special entitlement /prerogative to do so, while it in fact has no such rights, not even valid reasons. f.ex. it was never threatened by any of the countries central to the ME & has no accounts to settle, least of all terrtorial ones. of course i'm not talking about the iranian people as such, but the regime in place since khomeyni in -79, the regime that 'singlehandedly' has decided that it is its (probably divine) calling & entitlement to make this a centerpiece of their policy. it goes without saying that this also is a centerpiece of their offically sanctioned theology. it's not more complicated than that.

Burston appears to be seeking some form of entertainment from the conflict as it is a "dismal read". This is the typical even handed argument used to pave the way for the acceptance of the george soros policies for Israel. It is likely that many of the democratic signatories get funding from moveon.org, the Soros democratic funder. There is nothing even handed about the arab israeli terrorist war. Those who propose these views are similar to holocaust deniers. Uttering cute homilies is not synonymous with truth but does trivialize the truth.

...""very interesting", the little man stated in "Laugh In". You already know the answer to this problem but you refuse to believe it. Tis sad when all these islamic neighbors refuse to accept peace with Israel, yes all. Those who know their leadership is evil, yet do nothing. Most of these who recognize this fact have left for other countries to seek peace in their own time. The others are trapped by the islamic stranglehold on their futures(children), brain-washing them to hate any thing but islamic traditions. And here we are, with our hands extended in friendship, only to have it bitten time and time again. You know it's true, but refuse to accept it as reality. I know how this all will end and I know you know. Soon my friend all will be revealed, till then...Peace be to you and all who read this opinion.

"Ever feel like Jewish 'journalists' are just leftist propagandists and weasels? It's not your imagination." it's not the solution, but it is certainly one of the problems... I wonder bradley; why dont you ever ask meshal or haniyeh to specifically define what territory they consider "occupied". I never seem to hear ANY reporter ask that very salient question. why is that? is it that most people dont want to hear the answer? too problematic?

WW2 ,giving her terrotory to Poland,Chechoslovakia,Russia and expulsion of more than 10 million Germans from their ancestral lands. Arab agression in 48 and their paying a consequence of it ,just like the Germans did after lost war is different for you since pals are a Superior Race That you read Cutie Burston's piece as support for your idea of pushing Israel not even to 67 borders but to the borders arabs didn't agree in 48 Partition Plan should be a source of major embarassment for B.B. Except he's on you side-Israel is to carved up and finished up by being deluged with millions of pals ,so BB could return to his Neturei Karta shtetl in Wiliamsburg ,NY ,mission accomplished

The Hagannah report written after the War of Independence stated that likely under 15% of Arabs fled due to exhortations by the invading Arab armies. The majority fled to avoid danger and fighting, a sizeable percentage were driven out by Jewish action or threats of action - effectively ethnic cleansing. That document is in the public domain, it has never been refuted. Yet so many Zios just want to close their eyes and hold their ears and pretend it never happened. 'There are none so blind as those who do not want to see'. Israel will one day have to stand up like a man, take it on the chin and make amends to those it wronged.

I wish I had your discernment. My best to you. Lou

bradley isnt 90 years of time wasting effort enough to satisfy you ??

What happened to Polish territory post-war is history now. International law changed shortly afterwards, it made it 'prohibited to acquire territory by force'. So no, Israel CANNOT acquire territory by forcefully expropriating or illegally 'annexing' land. Indeed, it can never have legal sovereignty over one dunam of the West Bank without the formal consent of the civil power (the PA, acting on behalf of the PLO). The Polish border was a highly flexible affair that waxed and wained over the centuries, Russia had at least as good claim to parts of the land. The Palestine border does not wax and wane, it remains legally as it did when the UN drew it in 1948. Nice try though!

'Abbas does not give signs the Pals are willing to internalize mentally and emotionally Israel is a fact.' The PLO FORMALLY RECOGNISED Israel in a letter from Arafat more than a decade ago. That recognition was accepted by Israel. That's as good as it gets in international relations: recognition is between state parties. The Arab League has also offered to recognise Israel, if there is a fair border and refugee settlement. If by internalise, you mean rewriting the history books, making incitement an offence, etc., well that cuts both ways. Israel too would need to look at its teachings, narrative and race relations. Bibi has tried to muddy the waters by adding: recognition as a Jewish state. That is an altogether different matter. It would be rather like South Africa demanding at one time recognition as the 'Christian Afrikaans Republic of...' Think quite a lot of people would have problems with Bibi's latest wheeze... I agree with your overall conclusions.

and then Cast Lead. If we in Canada or the Mexicans on your souther border started to fire missiles into your cities, I do not think your president would waste the phone call to find out what was happening. The president would send in the military in an hour. In 1982 Lebanon was a mess. The Palestinians living in Lebanon were reaking havoc on both sides of the border. If anything the Israeli invasion helped shut down the civil war. Cast Lead was brought on by Hamas' refusal to accept Israel. If you analyze both Lebanon and Gaza wars...the bottom line is the quiet on the borders. Not to say it will not erupt again...but the consequences will rise proportionately again...with the same end results...till Israel is allowed to live in harmony with her neighbors.

Tarik, you err and let's see how. Starting point understood as British Mandate area means that closely 80 percent of the land is in Arab hands - and more than 3000 years old continuum of Jewish presence in the East Bank was abruptly ended. If some people, then the Jewish ones, were and are the indigenous people. First Arabs came as intruders along post-Muhammad conquests. You should know that there was a vast influx of Arabs from as far as maghreb states and Sudan, not to mention the neighbouring countries to modern days Israeli area due to the higher living standard. These vast numbers of people are of Arab origin, but, are they "Palestinians", is another question. War 1948: most Arabs moved away due to the command of the coming Arab armies command and due to the "fact" they would soon come back to take what would be left from the Jewish property. So didn't it happen. These Arabs were not expelled by the Jews, but, by exhortation of their Arab brethren.

No.3 wisely mentioned that israel has no more business in wb then germany and russia in poland in `39. However with allied consent )not polands! russia gained and annexed southern part of poland in `45, the same part they conquered in `39, and poland gained the eastern part of germany after the war. so in same manner can be stated that israel should also profit from their spoils of their defensive wars...

I am a so called left wing Pro Israel American. I care about the future and am alarmed by the rhetoric of the majority of Israeli's. The voices of Bradley Burston, B'Tsalem, Gush Shalom NIF and anyone else calling for reason are unpopular. Work with President Obama and Hillary and accept the inevitable dreaded Two State Solution.

those Bradley describes - MY side is ALWAYS right! 'Pal unwillingness to renounce any of their claims is the root cause of the conflict ...' And what should they renounce AS? The UN drew the borders of their future state and they remain the legal borders. The fact that Israel invaded does not give it the right to gain territory, that is prohibited in intl law. Israel built 160 settlements there, but that too is illegal, an occupying army cannot settle its nationals on occupied territory. People cannot be ethnically-cleansed either, so 811,000 Pal Arabs and their families have the right to be (a) rehoused, either in Israel or Palestine, at someone's expense, or (b) compensated financially for the loss of homes and land. Israel cannot keep dodging this. The Pals have no more water to donate, plus no country surrenders its airspace. So what exactly do you want the Pals to give up AS? Why should they? And what exactly is Israel going to give up in return?

I wish Bradley Burston's comments would appear in American newspapers. He makes so much common sense.

He rings in Auschwitz. These are the remarks of a person seeking a toehold to build a case for Israeli legitimacy. It would be nice to see someone make such a case without bringing in the holocaust. That seems to be the universal entitlement for whatever it is that Israeli Jews want at the moment. Although the Palestinians had nothing to do with the holocaust, the Israeli Jews are bringing it to them in more ways than one. Anyway, the idea behind Israel is, that if they grab all the land they can, and populate it and build on it as fast as possible, then it will become too big to be taken away. The momentum will be too great to stop. It's like a bank robber robbing so many banks and getting so much money, that, eventually, many people will see him as legitimate. This is especially true if the robber "greases the palm" of those who would call him to account. AUTHOR'S NOTE: Dear Natallie. I certainly welcome your opinions and your disagreements with me. But this time, you entirely and completely misunderstood what I wrote. Please read this again. The reference to the Holocaust was nearly the 180 degree opposite of what you took it to mean.

Except that the Israelis have bigger guns. You want to try another go at it? Hezbollah do not. Hamas do not. It worked.

Gazan Arabs can hardly claim immunity from action taken by Israel to end such hostile fire. David says. ---- Are those MICKEY MOUSE firework called "rockets" equal to israeli LETHAL WEAPONS? !

For the longest time the American middle/working class favored Jews and Israel; this was due to excitement and hope that a functioning Jewish homeland was established in the "holy land." The Golden era up to 1973. Also many middle class students and workers found themselves working and living among Jewish peers who were more like them and than different. This was different from previous generations in America. The suicide bombers of the 2nd intifada had more and more Americans siding with Israel. Then Oslo came and went away with an assassination and American skeptics started to grow. Americans haved helped to feed the Israel war machine which started to perform in questionable fashion from 1982 invasion of Lebanon to Cast Lead in 2009. Taxpayers are mad about $$'s. The failure of the Israeli gov't to close the peace deal is so unAmerican that we do not comprehend it. Also the flip-flopping on the Oslo Treaty is not the American way.

I often comment on Burston's columns but Burston often censors critical commentary, so lets see if this gets published. In Burston's definition of "compromise", Palestinians have to accept Israeli sovereignty on 77% of their historic homeland, even allowing immigrants like himself superior rights to the land than refugees who were expelled from their homes. At the same time, Palestinians are expected to renounce their rights derived in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, with the remaining population forced onto the remaining 23% of the land. All Israel gives up is a few far flung settlements, their claim to which is merely a case of religious fundamentalism anyway, and which benefit Zionists in the long run. This is hardly a compromise. It certainly takes a lot of Chutzpah to squat on stolen land, claim superior rights to the land than the indigenous people, pronounce the conflict "suffocatingly complex", and then cast yourself as a believer in "compromise".

Abbas does not give signs the Pals are willing to internalize mentally and emotionally Israel is a fact. At least he hasn't ordered a killing spree among Pal moderates, like Arafat did in the eighties. Maybe maybe Bargouthi is something new in Pal thinking. For Israel, it is sad the population seems to choose more and more for Lieberman's "solution", namely deportation (so-called transfer). One must not forget what it does to a nation if the enemy after more then 60 years still say you are not really there. I can understand Israeli fed-up anger c.q. rage and loathing for Pals (a hopeless enemy is far worse then a wise enemy). But is still is wrong and it deprives Israel of it's potential role in the world and of it's dignity and it corrupts Israel considering morals and ethics. That is a tragedy.

of history ? This "win-win" scenario has been touted by Peres and Co ,hasn't it ? So what's new in it and why has it failed ,oh Great Marco Polo of "Haaretz" ? Pal unwillingness to renounce any ,any of their claims is the "root cause" of the conflict and no new Discovery of America could change it.

"If this is to work, it will require an excruciating decision: letting go of one's self-definition as either pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian. It will require a conscious effort to become pro-Mideast." - Bradley Burston I have no trouble being pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian at the same time. I also have no trouble being anti-both where each, or both, are guilty. It is not necessary to switch to being 'pro-Mideast' what ever that is. It is just a matter of having open eyes, ears, and mind. "for peace in the Middle East is the fight of the Israelis and Palestinians against the extremists in their own midst." - Bradley Burston The PA has done a credible job of fighting it's extremists in the West Bank. But that has gained Palestinians nothing. In Israel the extremists seem to be winning. They certainly are winning elections. "We know this much, if nothing else. If we allow the extremists their victory, everyone will have lost." - Bradley Burston Too true.

Suffering the consequences - yes, but culpable of war crimes certainly not. Nor did I suggest that the Gazan civilian population was collectively culpable of war crimes for their Government's decision to fire rockets into Israeli population centres for the previous two years. However Gazan Arabs can hardly claim immunity from action taken by Israel to end such hostile fire.

Tell it to the Jews who can't walk in Europe unmolested! But then let's hold the Palestinians to account for THEIR electoral choice in their first free elections. Truly, the people have spoken, and are as a consequence being blockaded by Israel and Egypt-notice Egypt, too, Johnboy??

The "confrontation" is not complex at all. In 1967 the Israeli prime minister defied the advice of his own legal adviser in deciding to begin an illegal permanent non-military Israeli civilian presence in the occupied territories. Is that so hard to understand/ Is that so complex? Every so-called "complexity" flows from that one decision consciously made in violation of international law. Israel has no more business in Palestine than Russia and Germany did in Poland in 1939. It should simply end the occupatiuon as all call for - 1967 borders with the minor adjustments foreseen in UN resolution 242.

After all, the govt that ordered the IDF to go Gang-Busters on Gaza without much concern for civilian casualties was also democratically elected. Does that make ALL Israelis fair game when it comes time to visit justice upon the war criminals amongst them? I would suggest that by YOUR logic the answer is "Yes, all Israelis are culpable for the war crimes of the IDF".

...the Palestinian residents of Gaza voted Hamas into power in a democratic election. Why shouldn't they take responsibility for the consequences of that decision?