PMO: New PA stance 'flies in the face' of international demands

"Israel is not required to provide Gaza or West Bank Arabs with anything they didn`t get before June 1967 -- no Israeli fuel, water, electricity, harbor access. Those are PRIVILEGES Israel is free to withdraw at any time." Rubbish. The Occupying Power is OBLIGED to supply these services to protected persons under its power. The 4th Geneva Convention says so. Even if it DIDN'T say so Israel can not withdraw these services without running foul of International Human Rights Law; you can not subject people to collective punishment, and you can not starve them or deprive them of the basic essentials of life. If Israel is supplying them with water and electricity then it CAN NOT simply turn off the taps. To do so leave Israel open to a charge of a "Crime against Humanity". Look, I understand that you think that it is simply prudent policy for Israel to deprive these people of the ability to live. But that's because you are simply a complete nutter, Brnd.

"The refugee status is indeed dependent on "why" and "how" they left. As most of the Arabs in 1948 left of their own will or convinced by Arab countries to leave, it IS NOT Israel`s responsibility to compansate them today. That is basic ethical logic." - said Maurice. Nooope. The legal definition is found in Article 1 of the United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees. Go look it up. It is all to do with their inability or unwillingness to risk returning to their land, and NOTHING to do with the manner of their leaving. Israel is stopping these people from returning - no-one else is - so Israel is responsible for them being refugees. It matters not a whit how or why they left; it is entirely down to who is stopping them from going back. Israel is, Maurice. Israel is culpable. Israel owes these people.

Otto Rand, It seems to me Israelis are doomed to becoming wondering Jews again. Their thinking is just so distorted and racist in its orientation. Dutch

We have to separate the creation of a Pal state and the 'right of return.' Hundreds of thosands of Jews from Muslim lands were forced out and lost their homes and businesses. The question of return or compensation has to be evenhanded and include Jews who also suffered. The media seem obsessed with Pal suffering, but Jews were also victims.

Israel needs to continue to work with Abbas as far as possible to move towards a Pal state. They have Gaza and should have most of the West Bank. The real issue is going to be Jerusalem --and this will require real concessions on the Pals' part. Let's move forward while there is momentum and let the Arabs worry about Iran.

Dear Yosemite: It certainly should be feasible for every nation to choose its citizens on the basis of morals, education, goodness, etc. Those, actually, are the people who do not make all the noise and would live peacefully with everyone if it were not for the damn thugs and corrupt villains. But then to be able to choose only the good apples would be a utopia--"no place." Cheers.

Dear Yossi: Please do not see hatred in those who wish to point out an outright prevarication. So many posters keep saying that there never was a Palestine, yet ever since my earliest years in the German refugee camps, where we lived after being rescued from the Nazis, I have always heard and read about Palestine, it was a given. Some of the Jewish people whom we knew spoke of relatives who had gone to Palestine, a godmother went to Palestine to work as a nurse, and sent us photos, which we can show you, with "Palestine, 1950," (even after 1948) written on the back. I used to read about Palestine in magazines of the time, in National Geographic, then, in the sixties, I believe, the word became verboten. No hatred, Yossi, just amazement at the denial of facts. That does not help in the discussion, which we should all carry on with civility and hope for peace. Amen.

"...emergency government to be formed comprising all Zionist parties, in an effort to counter the establishment of the new Palestinian unity government." If God were to look for faults humans would have been exterminated soon after their creation because no sooner than Adam had said l do, his wife came with a tainted fruit. What is the agenda now- a battle of religions?? Calm down Isaac you are the clever one. Stop looking for faults but give your all as Jesus did on the cross to get all in return.

Talk about flying in the face of international demands... Not to mention apartheid.

As born again christian, we certainly don't agree with what the crusaders, lead by the roman catholics done in force conversion. In case you don't know, christians and catholics are great different in the interpretation of the scripture, thus affecting many major doctrines. A born-again children of Go-d, will only use God's word, (like Maria and Bill) to sow the seed, and wait upon the Spirit to work in harden hearts. Salvation comes from G-d, not by baptism or conversion rites. We loves the Jews because the Father loves them, it pains our hearts to see many reject Him, but we do not come "with hidden agenda", jews are still our brothers, believes or not. will never give up praying for you.Just met a messianic jew, a pastor who can never contain his joy in having found his Messiah, and wept every time for his brethren still outside Christ. Hope in my lifetime, i can see my spiritual jewish brothers saved as a nation. amen.

Wow,Israelis must be so surprised by this achievement. In the most stressfull situation, a brilyant peaceful unity government can be reached with dignity. Welldone, Godspeed, Godbless.

Claims to land in the holy land are rather dubious because 1) it is based on alleged GENERAL land ownership MANY long years ago and if the claims are honored, the precedent would be for all world maps to be withdrawn, so why make 1 exception 2) Zionists keep saying Pals have no claim to any land there, yet they bristle when someone suggests they prove 'inheritance' rights while zionists claim OUR PEOPLE lived there so and so thousands of years ago, and it is not even clear they are the SAME family now making the claim. Hell, if that loose standard is acceptable, my people would own the Holy Land as we lived on every part of the planet. Those Jews claiming land should be subject to the same 'prove your claim' that zionists yell to the Pals. That's fair, don't you think, esp when you are importing Nazis from the USSR who clearly have no claim or love for the land. Regards. Ballistic.

"Upon arrival to the capital of Hamastan, East Jerusalem, Clickfool inspected new Hamas training camps and Hesbollah rocket lunchers" Do you not think, for a moment, Ibrahim, that the Palestinian people are not as heartily sick of war and death and misery as the Israeli people? Israel is not at the smallest risk if it tries peace for a change. It would continue to have the largest military machine in the Middle East and if the new Palestinian State did not prove the peaceful, good neighbout I believe it will, its tanks could roll right back in and regain control. The only thing that Israel would lose by trying peace would be its territorial ambitions. Peace would mark the end of its growth by land theft. It is this that stops it talking to the Palestinians, not any future threat from the Palestinians.

"its just american arm twisting which has the e.u. and the quartet not coming out openly with a different view".. The EU is not ONE country,it's more than twenty,each one has its own policies and sometimes they disagree on various issues,some of which have to deal with the relationship between USA and EU.How,then,do you pretend that the US are forcing the EU to accept their positions on the Midle-East?

DORIS PLEASE EXPLAIN ??? WHAT IS THE "INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY " DOES IT INCLUDE THOSE MUSLIM HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSERS ?? THE CHINESE ONES THE RUSSIAN ONES ???

Avi's post had nothing to do with revenge (as you may have noticed Jews do not spend to much time on this issue - see WW2) - but everything to do with the hipocracy of all those preachers like you trying to tell us how to bow down once again without really understanding the issues from our point of view.

I'll bet you've never had anyone shooting at you, have you?

for Christian pilgrims going to the Holy Land and worse. That however did not stop the Crusaders from massacring Jews all the way from Europe to the Holy Land. Interstingly we do not call for a Jihad against them or their descendents.Nobody calls for a Jihad against the Germans either.

Respect is NOT a commitment it is a loose acknowledgement .Check it out I would be delighted for you to prove me wrong. Under the circumstances resistance does not commit to non violence nor does he say that, he only RESPECTS the concept. As they only respect Israel they do not acknowlege that it cannot be replaced by an Islamic republic from the river to the sea. I would love to hear the outrage from you people if Israel says that they only respect all deals with Hamas. How about a little intellectual honesty from the "intellectuals"

That suit could probably feed several Pal families for months.Who is paying? Still they are not all like that Suha Arafat lives the life of a refugee-in Paris.

Jesus as their savior,you know what why---easy believism won't get them to Heaven.we want true believers not pretenders.I see someone already planted seed(Word of God) in your heart, how did you know about getting saved,christian missionaries---the sad thing is, it didn't fall on the good ground of your heart.it fell by the way side...........but it's not too late yet.remember:God loves the sinners like us,but hates our sin. please haaretz post this....thank you.

otherwise he wouldn't have the positive, pragmatic perspectives in accomodating to our adversaries towards a peaceful resolution for the region. Now, some of the phrasing or tone towards poor Cipora, I can do without, but who's perfect? There's always room to improve oneself, and I say that for myself as well. Nice chatting with you all and now I'll be off to bed. May peace be upon us soon, for the sake of our mishpacha!

I hope someday you'll find the LIGHT.billy jack , why did He killed them? because of stubborness of the pharoah of egypt,am I right?how many plagues did God send before he(pharoah finally let the hebrews go?.God is the Righteous God and HE's the God of Judgment also.The jews aren't perfect, but they're still HIS CHOSEN AND SPECIAL PEOPLE.

Historically, you are right, but we can't go by history alone. There were Crusades. The Christians wronged the Muslims by massacring them in hundreds of thousands. Are the Muslims justified in revenging the crusades today? They think so. The reality is that we must move forward. Jews were massacred by Germany of yesterday, but it is helped by Germany of today. Christians and Jews and Muslims are all inhabitants of one planet which is in danger of extinction. As important as history is our common interest in a peaceful future must unite us. Our separate national and religious identities are only of secondary importance while our planet is dying.

"I had already told you that Israel`s admission to the UN was unconditional. I had directed you to the ICJ`s Advisory Opinion on the matter of admission of 28 May 1948." - Dense Bird from Outerspace As I told you A FEW TIMES already, in the admission resolution, the statement of Israel agreeing to implement 194 precedes the statement that Israel is "a peace loving nation". This is a condition mentioned in the Charter, and the ICJ did not deal with such conditions. Let me repeat it in other words; perhaps it will penetrate your dense mind: If Israel's promise to uphold 194 (to the extent that it promised, not in full) was used by the UN in allowing the GA to conclude that Israel was peace-loving and therefore admissible, then Israel renouncing its promise may be regarded as invalidating the conclusion that it was peace loving. I don't know if I reached you. It is a unique experience for me to deal with such form of denseness. There are many limited intellects participating here. You are a special specimen of someone with some legal education but the inability to grasp obvious distinctions.

Hello Otto, Thank you very much for your support, and especially today which ended up being an especially hard one. There must have been an invasion of the brain snatchers somewhere. Unbelievable attacks by the mindless apologists for Israel. Considering your post #315, Hamas' positions are no different from Fatah's, in practice. Fatah has its own militia, Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, and they engage in "resistance" as well. The important thing is that Hamas agrees to a cease fire during Israel's negotiations with Abbas. They reserve their right to "resist", but in fact will suspend their resistance for the duration of talks. If there are no peace talks, neither Hamas nor Fatah will hold their fire for ever, and nobody in his right mind would expect them to.

He assumes that anybody who had a childhood not as cold and limited as his own doesnt really deserve good self esteem nor any accolade for achievement.This is because his self esteem is so damaged he views what is normal in a distorted way.he has many many issues.Good luck with stuff.

"Upon arrival to the capital of Hamastan, East Jerusalem, Clickfool inspected new Hamas training camps and Hesbollah rocket lunchers"

is it international demands... or u.s. and israeli demands? its just american arm twisting which has the e.u. and the quartet not coming out openly with a different view on the palestinian unity govt. the true picture will soon emerge... and the us and israel will stand isolated... yet again

"If the ICJ answers in the affirmative, the GA will revoke Israel`s membership." The GA cannot expel a member on its own. The Security Council must also vote on expulsion. (may be Article 6?) NOTE: Tawain was not expelled, per se. The issue was presented as identifying which delegation representated China.

I had already told you that Israel's admission to the UN was unconditional. I had directed you to the ICJ's Advisory Opinion on the matter of admission of 28 May 1948. I suggest you read it, and learn it by heart. It is only a page long.

Your response shows that you have no knowledge of what is going on in the world and that you have a non-ethical logic. Here is why: 1) You state: " At least be honest, and say that the USA and all the countries that it has in its pocket are against this. " For your information Canada has a distinct world policy than the US. If Canada were in US's pockets as you state, it would have participated in the coalition force against Irak. But it did NOT. Canada DID NOT approve and stayed out. 2)You state: "Their refugee status is not in the least bit determined by *how* and *why* they left, but by their inability to return, and the reasons why they can`t return." The refugee status is indeed dependent on "why" and "how" they left. As most of the Arabs in 1948 left of their own will or convinced by Arab countries to leave, it IS NOT Israel's responsibility to compansate them today. That is basic ethical logic.

abilities are much more superior to the capabilities of President Abbas - this was a prediction even before Hamas was permitted to participate in elections. President Abbas has over the years become a pragmatic, more sophisticated politician both Israel and the U.S. can deal with, unlike the dramatic, irrational lingo or irremediable facade of Hamas, the inexperienced political faction to the political, yet international, arena. What a pity, such a waste of time and loss of dignity for the Palestinian people.

" I'd much rather maintain the very standards of humanity that are designated by the UN and be called and `idealist` then become some critically-deficient North American. " What does being North American have anything to do with the topic in discussion??? So, is everyone in Portugal a good critic of world affairs? Do not forget Paulo that among the western European countries Portugal is the lowest one as far as standard of life is concerned, and much below Canada's. And as you should know there are hundreds of thousands of Portugese immigrants in Canada: I guess that proves well the point. So, please stop taking airs of superiority as you are sounding more ridiculous than anything else...

Howdy Tosefta; The reality is that the Palestinian refugees will not be returned to Israel, the Jewish refugees will not be returned to the Arab countries from which they came, the Hindu refugees will not be returned to Pakistan and Bangladesh, the Muslim refugees will not be returned to India, the Korean refugees will not be returned to North Korea, the Vietnamese refugees will not be returned to Vietnam, etc. When the UN was founded, it was idealistic enough (due to the tens of millions of refugees and displaced persons caused by WW II) to hope that all refugees would be able to return to their places of origin after hostilities cease. Today, it is no longer considered to be a practical idea. Compensation for property losses is really the only viable option, but it will have to be done on a 1-1 reciprocal basis, i.e., one Palestinian refugee gets compensated by Israel followed by one Jewish refugee being compensated by which ever Arab country he got kicked out of, and so on.

Hello Otto, In practice, Hamas' positions are no different from Fatah's. Fatah has its own militia, Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, and they engage in "resistance" as well. The important thing is that Hamas agrees to a cease fire during Israel's negotiations with Abbas. They reserve their right to "resist", but in fact will suspend their resistance for the duration of talks. If there are no peace talks, neither Hamas nor Fatah will hold their fire for ever, and nobody in his right mind would expect them to.

There is a difference between being to the left and being an anti-Zionist who is supportive of Hizbollah and Hamas. Terror is never acceptable. The rabid anti-Semitism of these groups, and indeed, of much of the Muslim world is totally unacceptable. The 1949 Arab League Resolution which forbade member states to accord citizenship to Palestinian refugees , which Jordan, to its credit has disregarded, is totally unacceptable. All that said, my purpose, as I said, is a peaceful resolution to the conflict. I have been in favour of keeping the cease fire with Gaza in the face of provocations. Obviously, Israel will have to make concessions, but those concessions can only be made if the other side is willing and able to enter into honest peace negotiations. Jihad cannot be the way. Regards, Cipora

"Our fake Ben Gurion thinks that if he cites the part where Israel claims there should be no conditions on its acceptance to the UN, this somehow will be relevant to its commitment to solve the refugee problem" Tosefta That's is not what I said. Of course you didn't understand. That's OK. Think in terms of "obligated themselves"; to use your phrase, and conditionality. If you think about it you may eventually come to an understanding, but please don't put words in my mouth.

Dear Otto, Peace is usually much preferable to war. Peace is in the interests of the entire region. Personally, I am not as optimistic about the new unity government as you are. I honestly hope that I am wrong. I have tried on many occasions to convince a person I know for certain is from Hamas to enter into negotiations. I have also addressed posts to governments asking them to keep the peace process open as a possibility. But, I do not want to waste my time on someone for whom I have zero respect, and who spends his time undermining Israel. Spending endless posts on Israel's admission to the UN, which cannot be debated legally, is a waste of my time and energy. My only purpose is to try to advance negotiations, if that is at all possible for an individual. I try not to put too many cards on the table regarding my own personal political views. Let's just say, that I am somewhere in the center, and you know that, just as I know that you are to the left of me.

"there is no such thing, even in la la land, as receiving UN membership through fraud." - Bird from Outerspace Are you a Legislator, dear Bird? If so, you make Martian laws, not Earthly laws. The UN never expelled any country, so the situation is unprecedented and there is no case law to guide us Earthlings. But as I suggested the other day, such a case might arise for Israel in the following scenario: 1. Assume Israel declares that it is going to ignore UNGA Resolution 194 and will not get involved at all in the resolution of the refugee problem. 2. The General Assembly refers the following issue to the ICJ for an Advisory Opinion: Israel's assumption of some responsibility for refugee relief in 1949 was stated in the resolution admitting it to the UN. It is therefore clear that the GA decision on admission was affected by it. Can the GA decision be revoked in view of Israel's recent declaration? 3. If the ICJ answers in the affirmative, the GA will revoke Israel's membership. Denial of this possibility is not doing any one of us any favor, except yourself. Sleep well, and don't interfere with our thinking. If you want to help, I suggest you go in warp speed to the future (since it is faster than the speed of light). See what the ICJ decides, then tell us. Or did you do it already??

Wow, I never realized how many Australians hate Israel before. Hey, Maureen, say hi to some Aboriginals and Tazmanians for me, ok?

"It`s an old dictum that people read in statements whatever they want to read"--And then you prove the point by saying that Hamas has "explicitly" stated it will abide by agreements made with Israel, "although not mentioning Israel". I think my dictionary must have gotten it's definition of "explicitly" wrong. Have you read Hamas' charter? It explicitly (meaning, it comes right out and says so in so many words) says they want to get rid of every single square inch of Israel and replace it with an Islamic waqf. It's on line, you can read it for yourself. It seems to me that you are reading what you want to here. Are you the pot calling the kettle black? By the way, Mr. I Hate Foreign Occupiers, what's a guy named "Otto Rand" doing in the land of the Maya and Mexica?

Oh I forgot to mention - Your post #325 is funny. I see I've really gotten under your skin. You seem very upset. When you get upset you always focus on the trivial. No susbtance at all, just ranting and raving. But as I said in my earlier post; I actually think you're improving in your ability to go beyond generalities. Continue to work on getting more and more precise. And please consult some lawyers - don't take my word for it. Do some work - don't assume you know everything.

They need to leave the West Bank. I have never said one word about any of the Jewish immigrants living in the West Bank. If their is a two state solution, everyone needs to go to their respective state and respect the others country. Just that damned simple. And please stop trying to put words in my mouth. It is actually a very stupid unsound idea to dump 4 or 5 million people on either country. Most economically ignorant suggestion there is to date.

Thank you very much, Otto. I need any support I can get today. People can't see the obvious. What is the world coming to? (May be it is coming to Mars.)

I love how you call me fake Ben Gurion. Who is the real Ben Gurion - you? I thought you were getting smarter but your last post proves you are regressing again. But what can we expect from a man who thinks the USA has a Prime Minister, who thinks there are things called "Wrong Facts";(1) who thinks that the Lebanese/Israeli border is in dispute. (1)I suspect that English is not your native language so your are forgiven for your misinterpretations of words and their meanings. "Some people have a limited intelligence but strangely also have great self-confidence in themselves" - That describes you perfectly.

chunk of lands flowing with oil, but still not happy and don't even want to share your land with your brethren , the palestinians(jordanians who became palestinians overnight).your goal is to destroy the tiny land of israel and its people.which one do you prefer-----land flowing with milk and honey or land flowing with oil.

Death to whatever country you're from Baz (if that IS your real name)! It's end will be as violent as it's beginning (or more, depending on what country it is). Really, to be fair, I propose that every country on earth die in blood and fire. After all, which one is innocent?

Jeff, as you know yourself, you have little experience with real situation. This means that you tend to make many many mistakes in your evaluations and suggestions. Let me repeat one piece of advice I gave you before. Perrhaps the repetition will help. "Perhaps Israel agreed to abide by UNGARs 181 and 194 at the time, but they no longer apply today" - Jeff. Earlier today you made the even stronger statement that 194 was actually replace by a statement on refugees in UNSCR 242. Before you make any such statements, which you haven't seen written anywhere but which just arose in your mind, you should check what Israel is saying. After all, Israel is the interested party, it has an army of lawyers, and would dig for any way to rid itself of any obligation regarding the refugees. You will see that Israel never claimed that 242 overrode 194, and that it does not claim that 194 is just "too old". Also, from your own experience you will know that once you undertake an obligation to pay some somebody for a property of his under your control, this obligation just doesn?t get too old. You have to pay. Reality can help you. It will not change your innate abilities, but it can weed out some of the many false arguments you make. It will look much better.

"The shame of it is that Cipora already cited a relevant passage. find it between post 331 and 333" - Tosefta "And what was one of the passages Cipora cited (actually paraphrased) in #331. Why the same one I cited." - Fake Ben Gurion The issue of the long discussion between Cipora and myself was the relation of the refugee problem to Israel being admitted to the UN. It was actually post #332 that was meant ("between" the posts I mentioned). Didn't want to make it too easy for a nonthinker.) And here is the passage relevant to the refugee problem that Cipora cited of Israel's statement: "3, The solution to the refugee problem can be effected only within a negotiated peace process, and in cooperation of the countries of the Middle East". Our fake Ben Gurion thinks that if he cites the part where Israel claims there should be no conditions on its acceptance to the UN, this somehow will be relevant to its commitment to solve the refugee problem, which the UN took into account when approving Israel?s membership (as stated by them explicitly). No dense one, it isn't the relevant passage. I told The Fake earlier that he shouldn't deal with legal matters which he has not the mind for. His mind is so imprecise that he can't comprehend the simplest legal issue. The man can't tell what is relevant and what isn't. How many times does this need to be repeated with an example in front of his eyes. Some people have a limited intelligence but strangely also have great self-confidence in themselves. Dumbya Bush is an example, and Dumbite is too. I imagine it has to do with parental attitudes and nothing to do with the actual ability of the person. It is not bad to have self-confidence, except when the mismatch with reality is too great, as it is here. "Man has got to know his limitations" - Clint Eastwood

Lieberman is an odd bumpkin because he normally voted for social issues and whatever, however, his insistence that more US soldiers die in Iraq is crazy, this in spite of Petraeus saying we can't win. He is right up against Bush in this fiasco in Iraq cause Israel, according to him, is in danger and he has threatened to jump ship to Repubs. He should be in the Knesset and hopefully he will be unseated next time around as CT is democratic all the way, but felt he had been Senator for a long time and were reluctant to unseat him. However, if he jumps ship, he is done next time around, maybe before if they recall him. Regards.

We Jews had our homeland taken from us by the Romans who are now dead and gone. But since then we've been kicked around like stray dogs by all you Christians and Muslims for nearly 2000 years. How dare you claim the moral high ground after what you've done to us! You Christians were burning us centuries before the Nazis' ovens. You Muslims were murdering us while Muhammad was still alive. Between the two of you you've taken over most of the world. Were the American continents originally Christian? Was Africa and all of southern Asia outside India originally Muslim? You are all guilty of conquest and dispossession. And you are all guilty of the most horrible crimes against us Jews! Now go back to oppressing your own minorities and leave us the hell alone!

She is harmless man. She has been preaching to the Jews their demise for quite a while. She thinks the Bible is THE ONE AND ONLY HISTORY. Even when the Jews are killing off the Palestinians, she votes it is okay because the Bible says Jews own Israel. These religious zealots on all sides are a problem. Then, Jesus will come back and kill all the Jews that don't accept him.

I have said more or less that Israel should have the right to pick and choose the Palestinian Arabs it wants. There are a lot of terrorists and criminals that are Arabs although this does not actually constitute what all Palestinian Arabs may consist of. There are Veterinarians, Psychologists, Psychiatrists, Doctors, Engineers, Bankers, Lawyers, Teachers, and Engineers that are Palestinians and may have no ties to extremist or terrorist organizations whatsoever. Israel should use it's head. Which is more qualified for citizenship? An Angelic Arab Hala or a boiterous, swearing, drug dealing, gun toting Jew from the Bronx?

Did you know that Palestine was conquered from the Christian Byzantine Empire by the expansionist Muslim Empire out of Arabia in the 7th century? Your solidarity as a Native-American with other dispossessed people is admirable, but a bit misplaced. There are no truly indigenous people in the Middle East. Everyone has been conquered there, and all current regimes are conquerors, including the Muslim ones.

Howdy Chanah; What I don't get is how can UNRWA continue to grant refugee status to the descendants of the original group of refugees for generation after generation? I can see it for underage children, but after they reach the age of 18, they should be taken off the UN dole and become the responsibilty of the states in which they reside.

You sound so sincere in your preaching that one might even forget that your country in its entirety built on stolen lend. The only reason that nobody claims it back is that your ancestors were masters of genocide and there is almost nobody left to place the claim. Your posts remind me of child molesting catholic priests talking about not harming innocents, human rights etc to their parishioners just before they are caught.

Howdy Yellowbirdwoman; The Palestinians can be as strong and proud as they want just as long as they do it on their side of the fence. They can also breed themselves into perpetual and abject poverty and live off the UN dole into eternity, but once again, as long as they stay on their side of the fence.

Listen carefully: there is no such thing, even in la la land, as receiving UN membership through fraud. Getting admitted to the UN is not like getting a driver's license.

Unfortunately, yours is a voice calling in the desert. The moral decadence of so many Israelis leads them to to believe that a) they have the right to all of Palestine of the British mandate, and possibly more. The struggle against occupation is illegitimate. b) that the refugees have no rights whatsoever. If they rot it's the responsibility of the Arabs. c) Syria needs to give up its legitimate territory if it wishes peace with israel; and even then it would be a favor. d) all Palestinians are terrorists and therefore they should be exterminated, together with Hizbolla and Iran of course. Weak Israeli leadership does not use its nuclear power to get rid of them.

Israel is a country of 6 million people (not all of whom are Jews, you know). It cannot accomodate over 4 million new people, even if it wanted to. Nor can it pay reparations to that many people, even if the 4 million descendants of the 800,000 Arab refugees deserve reparations. On the other hand, there were nearly a million Jewish refugees from Arab and Muslim countries as a result of the 1948 war. No Jew without a deathwish would want to move to Iran or Egypt these days, and I sort of doubt one could convince Arab/Muslim countries to pay for lost property and such. Hey! I know! How about if the Israelis and the Arabs/Muslims agree cancel out each others' respective debts and forget this whole reparations or resettlement thing? On a final note, Johnboy, are you willing to leave your property to allow the original Aboriginal who used to live there (or his descendent) to come home? If you are a white Australian, you have no right to criticize ANYONE over this issue.

Dear Cipora, Nice to see your posts again. Your rightful anger should be directed at those who are procrastinating the dismantlement of the illegitimate settlements. of course, it's crazy to call on the Arabs to shoot rockets; they don't need anybody's encouragement. I only hope that the settlements will be largely dismantled and soon, since they are a major obstacle to progress on peace negotiations. I am not sure whether you and I agree that without peace (not at any price) the future of Israel is bleak.

It's an old dictum that people read in statements whatever they want to read. I, for one, see the new PA stance as a positive development. Those who want to hear a Hamas love song for Israel can wait for the angels to sing. But there is stark realism in the PA statement with a face saving formula for Hamas. 1. Hamas declares continuation of resistance to occupation, but not armed resistance. This is a significant change. Does anyone think that the Palestinians have no right to resist occupation in any form and manner? 2. Hamas explicitly agrees to honor previous agreements including those with Israel, although not mentioning Israel. This is certainly an acceptance of one of Quartet's conditions. 3. Hamas is willing to extend the cease fire to the West Bank, including Qassams and suicide bombers. This is another condition of the Quartet. A permanent cease fire has to be an outcome of negotiations. 4. The refugee issue is a negotiating position. They have theirs; Israel has its own.

Jews have not fared well at the hands of Christians, either. Christian missionaries and the like have been responsible for more Jewish suffering over the centuries than any other single group. That they've done the same to the indigenous peoples of the Americas, Asia, Africa, and Oceana (I'm assuming you belong to one of those groups) suggests to me a common cause. The support of right-wing Christian groups for Israel is based on their idea of Apocolypse, complete with the Rapture of the saved and the 1000 year suffering of the unbelievers, including Jews. The support of the Christian-right for Israel is a bit like the Ku Klux Klan making a donation to the NAACP. Still, as the most hated country on earth, Israel can't be too picky about their supporters.

imbecilic government off the hook...re carnage against Palestinian and Lebanese civilians. Perhaps they just act like imbeciles to escape blame!!!

Israel is not required to provide Gaza or West Bank Arabs with anything they didn't get before June 1967 -- no Israeli fuel, water, electricity, harbor access. Those are PRIVILEGES Israel is free to withdraw at any time. Likewise, PA residents can not claim any of the benefits of the Oslo Accords when their "government" had just repudiated its own obligations. Hardly a "war crime" or "collective punishment" to withdraw that to which they have no entitlement in the first place. What are you smoking there in OZ? Did the alcohol content of Foster's just increase? As for annexing the disputed areas needed to protect Israel from the Hamas terrorist regime -- do you see any Hague indictment of Israelis for annexing Jerusalem or the Golan Heights? As the Jewish people have found out many times when it failed to act to protect Jews, "The Hague" is worthless. It isn't now going to rescue a Hamastan that rejects the 3 Road Map requirements. How? On what grounds, that Jews defended themselves?

By your line of reasoning how do jews from Brooklyn return to the occupied west bank??

He has no heart, so how can it be blind?

Unlike you I never make anything up. I loved your signature at the end of the post.YOU forgot to put Yours truly though.

for the jews.hala dont worry the idiot is on your side.he hates us as much as you do.make it up with him.he is in a state of panic.

Dear Lynn: Many people immigrate and find new, happy lives. Everyone should be free to live anywhere. I find it interesting that all of the Palestinians whom I know here, including some who are from Israel, keep a residence in the homeland, their relatives keeping everything in order when they are away. And they do not shoot anybody when they go back home, just have a great time with their people.

Jews from Brooklyn,california,etc.with no connection to the west bank have zero right to displace Palestinians!!!

Dear Johnboy from Australia: As I mentioned in my post, I was looking at the photos in the 1955 book which does use the label Palestine on the two photos which I mentioned. Trying to do two things at the same time, I noticed only the THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PALESTINE and knee-jerked. It is so sad to try to have any discussion when persons keep repeating the same mantra. I did reread your post later, realized that you are being ironic and did say "Oops, mate!" Fair dinkum? Goodonya? Forgive me? And thank you for speaking up. It never ends, does it? Like hydra heads.

Howdy Labhras; As Cipora Julianna Kohn pointed out, the only conditions for a country's admittance to the UN are contained in its Charter (Chapter 4?) and that these suffice. It would be a violation of the UN's Principle of Universality to impose additional conditions. Perhaps Israel agreed to abide by UNGARs 181 and 194 at the time, but they no longer apply today and the Arabs never did honor them. For example, UNGAR 181 envisioned Israel to be a lot smaller than she is today, but not even the Arabs are demanding that Israel go back to the 1947 Partition Plan. The paragraph in UNGAR 194 about refugees contains the condition to "live at peace with their neighbours" which has never been met by the Palestinians. Why do you bring up UNSCR 242? It came much later than Israel's admission to the UN and only calls for a "just settlement" to the refugee problem and no return is mentioned.

Israelis have committed war crimes against the Palestinians since the beginning of the occupation(from 1967until TODAY)and have been UNPUNISHED!!!!

I didn't know they had Fox News in Switzerland? The "islamofascists" phrase was coined by the fuckin retard in charge O'Reilly

in ignorance but indeed it does exist, yessiree, it does, try doing a tad of research before making such an outrageous statement. You just choose to think it does not exist. Zionists just won't be able to wheedle those Pals out of their land, nosiree, they won't. Regards.

The vast majority of us have no clue which Israel the Palestinians must recognize.Until Israel declares its borders they would be insane to recognize the state.If they did Israel could then declare the state of Israel includes all of the west bank. My father's family lost a very large farm to Israel in 1948 but I have always maintained that is over and done,I don't agree with what was done and how it was done,but it's time to do the 2 state solution.Since it is now obvious Israel is going to continue to grab land with the wall encroaching over the green line and ever expanding"settlements"I have changed my view of the matter,I now wish exactly for the Israelis what they wished for and perpatrated on our family.

Give him hell. You are much better at it than I am, and your posts get out. His latest is that Hez should launch rockets at the Jews in the West Bank to dislodge them. I won't say more for fear of being censored. He never seems to get censored, even when he advocates murder of Jews.

Maybe you`re not as dense as I thought. Although the fact that you think that the Lebanese/Israel BORDER is in dispute, makes me wonder.

Please explain how the claims of jewish history in Israel are "dubious".I cant wait to hear this one yesiree I can wait to hear this one.

"Yet you say THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A PALESTINE. " No, hala, my post *mocked* people who denied that there is a Palestinian people, and it *mocked* people who believe that there are no Palestinian refugees, and it *mocked* people who claim that all Palestinians are terrorists. People who hold such views should be treated with contempt. Unfortunately, their hides are incredibly thick - they appear to have no shame at all - and so I tried to *mock* them instead. Go back and read my post again with that in mind, and I think you'll see you owe me an apology.

biggest threat!

Jordanian Pals for the most part do not want to return. They have settled and have lives and businesses, built their homes. Their kids go to college. It was said that as the years have passed, they have lost interest in returning. It would seem, in Jordan, they have become part of that society. That is a good thing. They also aren't running around bombing people or shooting each other. Live in their own neighborhoods in peace.

Does Trident have a branch-office up there...??

Does Trident have a branch-office up there...??

Quite florid Jingoism, actually. You seem to think that the manner of their leaving the land is what determines their refugee status. It does not. What makes them refugees is their inability to return to the land that they lived on prior to the war 47-49. And the reason why they can not return is indisputable; the State of Israeli refuses to allow them to come back. That makes the State of Israel responsible for their refugee status, and it has been for the last 60 years. So if those people can not return then the State of Israel owes them proper, fair and just compensation for their loss, and if Israel is not willing to pay that compensation then it is OBLIGED to let them come back to their land. Your little dinky history lesson is completely immaterial; all that matters is who is responsible for these people NOT returning to their land following armistice. And it is ISRAEL who is responsible, so it is ISRAEL who owes them, and owes them Big Time.

Listen Fox, As I told you in the past, I see no point in dealing with nonthinkers, people who don't know about causes, effects, or what come first, or people who believe that Rabin was killed because of suicide bombers. Don't you get it? We operate on entirely different levels. Better go hunting for some chicken, and be happy. Good luck. "It is an ill thing to knock against a deaf, an imbecile, or a minor. He that harms them is culpable, but if they harm him they are not culpable." - Talmud

What to offer: -Defining, through negotiations, a border based approximately on the Green Line. -On their side of border, leaving a Pal. state with functional continuity and fluidity and without IDF, settlements, checkpoints etc. -economic aid to the country and the descendants of the refugees -compromise and cooperation on Jerusalem What to demand: -on the Israel side of the border is the only Jewish majority state in the world -a "just and agreed solution" to the refugees but not one that translates into literal return, the Jewish refugees from Arab lands don't return either -Pal. state non-militarized except security forces who enforce law internally and prevent terror so IDF can stay out -formal agreement that the conflict is permanently over

Fron Unwra's home page: http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/whois.html "Under UNRWA's operational definition, Palestine refugees are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict. UNRWA's services are available to all those living in its area of operations who meet this definition, who are registered with the Agency and who need assistance.

Dear Randy: Good on you for pointing out the malaprop of innate/inane. The wise man should bless the one who corrects him. I hope that you do not mind if I tell you that the expression is "splitting hairs" not "hares," why would anyone want to split the poor bunny rabbits? But nowadays the confusion is prevalent, for instance, people say "hair-brained" when it is "hare-brained," since hares get really whacky during March, the mating season (cf. mad as a March hare, as the March hare in "Alice in Wonderland"). Also, I see "hairlip" for "harelip" (it is supposed to resemble a rabbit's mouth area, and it was believed that if a pregnant woman saw a hare, her child would be born with a "hare lip"). I love words.

If it makes you feel any better, one of the Pals tunnels collapsed today. Killed at least one person in it. Not very good at tunnels either are they? We all knew this is another smoke screen.

Honestly, when it comes to zionist propaganda I have not seen such debasement of the english language since the last time I read "1984". "WRONG KHALID ITS AMMAN !! THERE IS ROOM FOR ALL TO RETURN" - paul harris Double-plus good, Paul. Now, explain to me how these refugees are RETURNING to the land that they lived on and owned, when you are advocating them going Somewhere Else. Coz your rant reads to me like you are talking about their RELOCATION and RESETTLEMENT, not their RETURN. Fair enough - its an arguable demand - but at least be honest in describing what you are advocating. Coz when you describe THAT as their "right of return" then you are saying that Israel has no responsibility for their relocation and resettlement Somewhere Else, and THAT line of argument is going to be very, very hard for you to justify.

Looks like the Pals civil war didn't last as much as the Israelis wished for. This is not Lebanon were power struggle is to last 15 years. Pals have common enemy, the same as what is keeping the Jews together.

"The US, Canada and Australia have clearly stated that they are against this" You forgot to mention Micronesia, and all those dinky little "island nations" who side with the USA against world opinion when it comes to a UN GA vote. At least be honest, Maurice, and say that "The USA and all the countries that it has in its pocket are against this". "Anyway, as historically documented most of the Arabs who left in 1948 were either scared and fled of their own will, or were told to do so by the Arab governments" - and this matters, how, exactly? Their refugee status is not in the least bit determined by *how* and *why* they left, but by their inability to return, and the reasons why they can't return. And the reason why is clear; not because they don't want to, but because Israel won't let them. THAT'S what makes them refugees, Maurice. THAT's why Israel owes them compensation, and if it isn't interested in paying compensation then it should let them back in.

I have had countless family member locked up and beaten and forced to accept christ as their savior.I here jews say that they need the christians to be on their side for the war against moslems.It is just a cest pool of hate,hidden behind religion.Tell me all you jewish scholars what do you think of the christian missionaries.Do you think they should do to you as they have done to us,keep in mind this is the supposed reason we support israel,remember.

If you believe that a god killed the first born male of every egyption,and not one egyption recorded this.Then you deserve to be be a religous fanatic,looking to kill those that do not follow your doctrine.You talk of palestinians teaching that christ was a palestinian,do you also speak of the jews who call christ a human teacher,not the messiah.Come on tell the jews they are wrong,come on maria.Tell them they will not see heavon if they do not believe in christ.

What do you mean by "NO one is calling for the removal or the destruction of Israel"? Hamas is, for one. It's in their charter, for God's sake! And they're hardly the only ones.

"Immigration policy is one of the fundamental rights that attach to sovereignty." - they are not "immigrants", they are "indigenous" "Israel has never extended any sovereignty over them, nor does she wish to" - NOW we get to the core, Cipora. Under Int'l Law Israel is OBLIGED to extend sovereignty over these people, regardless of wether she says "Awwwww....I don't wanna". If a country seizes land and claims sovereignty over it then it is OBLIGED to extend its sovereingty to the indigenous people of that land. Israel can no more seize the land and eject the people than it can seize the land and kill all the people. BOTH ARE AGAINST THE LAW. If Israel doesn't like that then it has two options: 1) Bribe them to go away with massive compensation or 2) Retreat back to the Partition Lines of Res 181, which lets the refugees come back to a land that is in PALESTINE, not ISRAEL. But Israel can't just purse its lips and expect the problem to go away. It won't.

How nauseating to see your post, but I know that you are used to hearing such things and probably smirk about it. You fly in the face of logic and truth as you present the same bull day after day. The Palestinian leaders are using their constituents as rottenly as Jordan, Egypt and the rest of the Arab world did for decades, and it is certainly not within anyone's right to purposely kill innocent civilians no matter how many times you post your spooge. If it were up to you Israel would not be a Jewish state, so how hypocritical you sound in making any statements about Israel as a Jewish state. Your next response will say that Israel must allow 5 million Arabs into her country as citizens thus eliminating the Jewish character of Israel. See, Dutch/Doris, you win no matter what - Israel can do no right and the Arab world no wrong. There is no fairness in what you post and no solution as long as idiots like you fan hatred instead of fostering peace.

If the palestians are going to hold out on a deal untill they get a right of return then they will be waiting a very long time there will never be any right of return its all an arab fantasy .. but the problem is fantasy isnt reality its something that would happen in your own private dream world that doesnt happen in everybody elses world. The UN resolution that deal with the refugees are non binding general assembly one and the resolution itself talks about the original refugees not their millions of decendents. Do the palestians really want to rot away for another 60 years saying no deals untill refugee return is part of the package? Like George Bush said when he publicly backed the idea of a palestian state for the first time the palestian refugees would return to the palestian state not Israel. They cant have it both ways and get a state of their own as well as flooding Israel with arabs its time for the arabs to wake up accept the new reality NO RIGHT OF RETURN.

all of you men and women are need to know that peace is the answer to all of the problem we are talking about and i mean peace that are real and fair to all man kind .and to the people of palestine & and israel.

Coz any Israeli leader who takes his advice will be asked to front up to some judges and "please explain". 1) War crime, plain and simple. Collective punishment of a people under occupation. Illegal under Int'l Humanitarian Law and Int'l Human Rights Law 2) Israel could get away with this 3) Ditto 4) Ditto 5) There is no war. Israel is very insistant about this. "An armed conflict short of war". 6) Illegal under Customary Int'l Law, the Kellog-Briand Pact, and the Geneva Conventions. "Next move up to Hamastan." Nope. Next move would be the UN Security Council, and the USA would be hard pressed to justify vetoing a Ch7 Resolution when Israel is committing a crime against humanity. And if the USA is THAT stupid then its war. But not with Hamas. It'll be war against all the Arab nations plus Iran as well. Don't expect any help if Israel follows your advice (1). NOBODY will want to be associated with a crime against humanity. Nobody. Not even Bush.

Volunteering to leave 2000 years ago? So, I'm guessing you think the Romans asked the Jews of Judea politely if they wouldn't mind going into exile so the emperor could build a new bath at Caesarea? I'll bet you believe in the Easter Bunny too.

What is the Arab claim to Palestine? That they conquered it in the 7th century from the Byzantine Empire, no? Or perhaps my biased American history texts got that wrong too? And by the way, Paolo, if you're not 6 years old, how old are you?

Talking about slippery slopes, you remember our discussion pertaining to pedophilia? Well since it seems to be that you have thrown your support behind Hamas and Hezbollah, which insinuates that you are in favor of the practices, it is time for you to done one of those nifty dynamite belts, say a few noble words to the camera, and go off on a journey to meet your 72 virgins. Then you can lie about tossing back grapes and telling them how intelligent you are. they will chew gum, play with each others hair, eyeing you with abject fear.

Paolo, you still haven't answered the question. Does Israel have a right to exist? If you're answer is "no", why are you bothering to post on an Israeli newspaper? Do you actually expect Israelis to agree that they don't have a right to exist? And please don't argue history here. That's been done to death by both sides, and frankly, it no longer matters. Everyone now has a legitimate grievance, including the Jews, so let's stop with the blame game and move on to solutions. If the Arabs agree Israel has the right to exist, then peace can be worked out. If they don't, it can't. It's just that simple. So, Paolo, what do YOU think?

Do you ask the same from your KING HUSSEIN the real Palestine is eastward of Jerusalem WHO IS SANE?

"Even the definition of refugee is different - any Arab who lived where isrsel is now for 2 YEARS before 1948 can claim these rights. How cynical is that?" Yes. Very cynical indeed, since you spin a blatant lie. The UNWRA definition is a WORKING definition, and is used solely to determine who is eligible for UNWRA relief assistance. That UNWRA definition has nothing to do with right of return, which will apply to: a) Palestinian refugees who live *outside* the UNWRA area of responsibility as well as those who reside *inside* the areas where the UNWRA provides aid. b) Palestinian refugees who meet criteria that HAVE YET TO BE NEGOTIATED, as per the "just solution" "in accordance with Resolution 194" of the Saudi Plan. This is all spelt out here: http://www.un.org/unrwa/overview/qa.html#c and here http://www.un.org/unrwa/overview/qa.html#e Breathtaking cynicism, or monumental ignorance. Which category do you slot into, ChanahS?

They must have learned from the master.

maybe we Jews should ask for the right to return to Syria Iraq Iran Morocco Egypt gain back all our lands build some temples and start controlling the economies there of.

Two years sounds good; why are you complaining, most of the zionists are claiming rights never having set foot on the land prior to 1948, and before that thousands of years ago and even that is a dubious claim. Yup, sounds fair to me. Special consideration for the Pals cause those folks plopping zionists down KNEW there would be some BS later on, and they were right. They probably foresaw all the stealing and squatting by zionists too. Funny how some folks see into the future isn't it? Regards.

East Jerusalem was annexed in 1967. The Israelis did recognize the right to a Palestinian state - Gaza would have been a very good start, don't you think? Instead you turned it into a launching pad. Not very encouraging, doesn't excaatly make Israeli withdraw from more areas, now does it? The Israeli army reacts to your terror activities. Kassam Rockets fired every day. The solution is simple - no terror, not IDF action. What's so hard to understand?

"They want to maintain the status quo because it allows them to continue colonizing, ethnic cleansing, and maintaining the draconian security apparatus." We would prefer maintaining the status quo becasue the Palestinians have not offered us a thing. More of the SOS. Same dedication to "resistence" (terror) same old demands, although they know that the right of return is a non -issue -nothing new under the sun. It seems as if the two clowns spend most of their negotiating to reach this agrement on how to word it so as to sound attractive. Not a thought to the actual content. Not a word about peace, cooperation, the future, the welfare of the Palestinain or Israeli people. Their only promise to their own people is to carry on the struggle in their name. I wonder how many would have preferred their leaders to have spoken about peace and hope. So yes, Israel will reject it, but not for the reasons youchoose to believe.

What really flies in the face of the international community is Israel's illegal occupation and settlements in the Palestinian territories. The Palestinian people are well within their rights under inter- national law to resist their Israeli occupiers whereas israel is not. The Prime Minister and his spokemen ought to be ashamed to represent such a backward country in the Middle East . Not to mention how the oppression of the Palestinian people shames both the Holocaust victims & Israel as a Jewish state. Still, most colonial powers have seen the light and have restored the sovereign rights to the indigenious people. Israel should too. Dutch

Fear works, no doubt about it. Europe didn't care much about the Pals, they cheered Israel's 67 victory with the knowledge that Israel defeated five Arab armies who were out to wipe them off the map. when and why did it all change? Pals attacked the olympics, they highjacked European jets and blew up a few people in Paris bombings. Europe got scared! The Americans cheered as well, until the oil embargo and the Twin towers and then Americans were scared as well. After daily Hamas bombings in Israel, Sharon took off the gloves and popped Yassin and Rantisi. Shhhhh Tonight all is quiet in Grozny, a few Soviet tanks rumble through the snow lined streets. Why? Putin knew the west would do nothing, after the Bezlan school massacre he also took off the gloves and got rid of the lunatics. You can only make peace with men of peace, not slithering liars, who have just pulled off a media event to help the Europeans off the hook. Where's Alan Johston

Hams' motto is blow yourself up, then you can go to paradise and make all the love you like. In other words Make war, followed by love. But then again, paradise sounds more like a weird orgy with paranoid virgins then something that I would associate with love. Just imagine it, 72 pre-teen virgins, all chewing bubble gum and complaining about their hair. 'Oh My God!'

those suits. Are they really so rotund? Or is this the product of Arafat's old tailor who stitched in the teflon armor underneath?? Scroll up to the picture and vote!! Also get the tailor's phone number and post it. He at least should get some free advertising....

There are organizations in the UN that exist specifically to pass resolutions against Israel (if you doubt this, you look at a list of resolutions against any country over time). The reason that "demanding" is much more effective against the Palestinians than Israel is that the PA is practically %100 dependent on aid, while Israel receives aid but does not depend on it for existance. As for YOUR demands, Israel follows them already. That is why Israel offered the Palestinians a state twice. And don't say it wasn't enough, because there was no counter-offer. It's so much more difficult to reason than be emotional, isn't it, sinner?

Dear Johnboy of Australia: At this very moment I am holding in my hands a book which I was perusing while glancing at the postings. It is titled "The Family of Man," a photo book which holds 503 pictures from 68 countries, published for the Museum of Modern Art in New York in 1955. On page 80 there is a photo from Palestine, Arab women at a loom, on page 95, there is a photo from Israel, children dancing, on page 110, there is a photo from Israel, a native-looking woman, on page 122 there is a photo from Palestine, an Arab boy writing in Arabic on a blackboard. I collect old books and National Geographic magazines. One US geography schoolbook from 1935 has Palestine, not Israel, on a map of the Middle East and Palestine listed in the index of countries. Yet you say THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A PALESTINE. That is wishful thinking. Even if you burn all the books, educated people will still know a lie from a lie, no matter how often and how stridently it is voiced.

I think this article will make us think twice of what is asked and what really needs to be done. Plus I think it's fair. pls read. http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-makdisi11mar11,0,2601983.story?coll=la-opinion-center

If the truth matters then we all owe thanks to Jeff Northridge for his post at #205. Read and re-read it. It contains not his truth or a version I happen to like; it contains THE truth. Everything else is myth, mythology, doctrine, diatribe and propaganda. Israel sticks to its guns because it knows the true story. Arab propaganda has been assisted first by the Nazis; then deliciously for decades by the Russians and East Germans (some of the greatest creators of the "turnaroud" and of doublespeak) and now by Europeans and wide-eyed innocent leftists who have bought into this ridiculous 5 million Palestinian refugees creation. That Israel has been incapable of exposing that lie for what it is, is a shame. But all the bleating by all the Palestinian apologists does not alter the truth. It's time they finally realized that is is they who must compromise if they want something they never had before and that never existed before; a country or state called Palestine.

Dear aionist forever: You write very thoughtful and intelligent posts. Concerning the law of return, it is true that allowing all the millions of descendants of the Arabs who left their homes in 1948 would be impossible demographically. But I do wonder aabout the following comment in your post: "I have never heard of any refugee situation like that how can a child born March 2007 have the same status as adult who left in 1948..." So how does a child born in the 1900's have the same status as an adult who left in AD 134? The millions of descendants of Jews who left Judaea/renamed Palestine in AD 134 all do have the right to return, even converts who have no possible connection to the exiles of AD 134 have the right to return. This is what puzzles me.

"You forget that this is the international standard, this isnt something that applies to just Palestinians but is a right that is inherent to all human beings. " Since UNWRA was created to look after the Paletinians, new guidelines for refugees were created that apply to exclusively to the Palestinians. No other refugee group in this world has the "right of return" to the same degree as have the Palestinians. Even the definition of refugee is different - any Arab who lived where isrsel is now for 2 YEARS before 1948 can claim these rights. How cynical is that? You can check it for yourself.

Palestine is standing strong and I am proud of their indigenous people. Palestine has eternity on their side regardless of the lawlessness of Isreal. Fear and desperation will only make Israel weaker and weaker as the years go by. Stand strong and proud Palestine.

"In the process of its admission as member of the UN in 1949, Israel made a few commitments regarding compensation to refugees and, while accusing other Arab states of creating this problem, declared that it is "earnestly anxious to contribute to the solution of this problem", but in the context of a full peace agreement. .... If Israel refuses, it may be accused of receiving its UN membership thru fraud and have it taken away from it." Tosefta Congratulations; you finally got it almost right - glad to see you are being more precise, and that you finally read the document, rather then just making general blanket statements. Of course the notion of "fraud" you bring up at the end is laughable - but I can understand, based on your general way of thinking how you might think that - don't take it from me - ask a legal expert. Maybe you're not as dense as I thought. Although the fact that you think that the Lebanese/Israel is in dispute, makes me wonder.

Who says our Zionist enterprise is not a success? Considering that we're surrounded by billions of people Arabs who've been trying to get rid of us for the past 60 years and more, I think so far we've done a pretty good job of it. A vibrant democratic country with a healthy economy and enormous investments in many of our industries, trade with most important countries - and all without oil too. I think in fact we've done better than all the 22 Arab countries in the Middle East - even those that are rolling in oil money. I know this doesn't gel with your theories, but that's the way it is. Live with it.

Who says our Zionist enterprise is not a success? Considering that we're surrounded by billions of people Arabs who've been trying to get rid of us for the past 60 years and more, I think so far we've done a pretty good job of it. A vibrant democratic country with a healthy economy and enormous investments in many of our industries, trade with most important countries - and all without oil too. I think in fact we've done better than all the 22 Arab countries in the Middle East - even those that are rolling in oil money. I know this doesn't gel with your theories, but that's the way it is. Live with it.

Who says our Zionist enterprise is not a success? Considering that we're surrounded by billions of people Arabs who've been trying to get rid of us for the past 60 years and more, I think so far we've done a pretty good job of it. A vibrant democratic country with a healthy economy and enormous investments in many of our industries, trade with most important countries - and all without oil too. I think in fact we've done better than all the 22 Arab countries in the Middle East - even those that are rolling in oil money. I know this doesn't gel with your theories, but that's the way it is. Live with it.

yes tosefta but it is your heart that is blind.

They want to have a state free of pal Christians as well. Go figure.

Jeff, you know very well as you have been told several times that Israel was accepted into the UN (Res 273)based on their promise(for what that is worth)to abide by resolution 181 and 194. Stop the lies Jeff do your bonuses depend on lies.As was stated earlier by Tosefta, Israel could be seen to have gotten their UN membership through fraud if they refuse to address 242/194.Allow refugees to return and compensate those that do not wish to.Too much of that mountain air.

Maybe you support fatah because you do not know what it is about. Jihad is not in your agenda? Can you tell me what the al-aqsa murderers brigades are? And Hams isn?t a jihadist organization either, is it? I recommend you read their charters. I see you do not like jihad so you support that organization just out of ignorance.

is a natural right." why should we be surprised at anything you say.you have already advised hizb to rocket the women and children in the settlements.

The saddest thing about your posts is that you don't even know how ignorant, childish and silly you sound. The little you do say amounts to meaningless threats and nothing more, yet they tell a lot about how brainwashed and ignorant you really are. My suspician is that there are many out there who agree with you. Poor Palestinians.

If it was up to me I would tell the Balestinians that Judea and Samaria is Jewish Sovereign Land and advise Jordan that they have 6 months to take their citizens out of there NO IFS OR BUTS. I would give the Neverlanders two options : JORDAN OR GAZA. No other demands are needed. They can enjoy themselves in Jordan or in that Rat hole called Gaza.

What is the sense in continuing a blockade of Palestine while Hamas is sharing in Government. This only serves to radicalise Hamas and defeat the very purpose of geting them to be more moderate.They are being asked to recognise Israel when ther are many Rab governments out there who do not. We are telling the Saudis and the other Arab states who helped to broker the Mecca agreement to keep their noses out. Yet they are expected to play a constructive role on the US,s and Europe,s side when both their prestige is at rock bottom in that region. The US,S Hypocracy is so evident given that it requested the UK to tread lightly with the IRA to avoid radicalising them.

Tossi supports the Hezbollah as a freedom fighting organization. while he is also the first to tout UN resolutions when Israel is the culprit he has no problem with the fact that the hezbollah has not alowed any information pertaining to the Israelis they hold. he is also a supporter of Hamas, disregarding their stated arms and supporting illusory statements. he also has no problem with the fact that Hamas holds an Israeli soldier and has not allowed the Red Cross or any of the hundreds of foreign UN workers in Gaza to visit the soldier. Tossi's whims would hold more water if his cries for justice were less subjective and slanted against Israel. For a centrist Zionist he sounds more like a Far Right or Far Left anti-semite. But then again I live here and I got the vote, and any government that let's Hamas off the hook, will get the hook.

If they want to kill each other among themselves, it is their business. Besides, while they are at it, they leave the others alone.

response to the question of whether we, Jews, have the right to live in our state of Israel, or whether the Jewish state of Israel has the right to exist. Your latest statement as I undertand it has been that we don't. Have you changed your mind since?

palestinians should have their right to return as long as jews and everyone else on this planet has the same right. Why do you think palestinians have some special right ?

how can any one deny a human being a basic right mentioned in the human rights charter

In this case this would be the first exalmple, that a state orders an other to accept millions of emigrants. Does international law agree with that? Probably this act would lead to a real catasrophy over hear. that nobody needs, Isarelis or Palestinians neighter

paulo's words - "If my opinions are so ill-informed then please I invite you personally to challenge them rather than engage in an innate argument about my elementary education in Lisboa." ------------------- you want an innate argument not an inane one. innate = used to describe an inherent or intrinsic characteristic or property of some thing, such as a quality or capability which is possessed since birth. inane = lacking significance, meaning, or point. i dont want to split hares but . . . stupid is as stupid does.

Thank you for the friendly offer, but I am not sure we will be able to walk our pets together. Dumbite has a problem; he cannot recognize any evolutionary change, in houses or streets or empty lots. If a new house is built, Dumbite will still run into the courtyard and pee on the trees as if nothing has changed. Causes me much embarrassment and even trouble, which you should avoid.

I am Jewish and wholeheartedly support Israel. But I also sympathize with the plight of the ordinary Palestinians. Unfortunately, their cause has been hijacked by murderers, liars and thieves who care nothing about their plight. If there were any good will whatever among the Palestinian leadership, peace would have been achieved in 1948, 1967, 1993, 2000, or today. As long as their leadership insists on everything, Palestinians will get nothing (except suffering, of course). The hardships placed on Palestinians with checkpoints and with security fences are strictly to maintain Israeli security. Ordinary Israelis are not happy about the situation but recognize that tough security measures are absolutely necessary. Last year Israeli leadership courageously evacuated its own citizens from Gaza as a test and good will gesture. They got Hamas and rockets in return. How can any reasonable, unbiased person expect Israel give up even an iota of additional security under these conditions?

So when are you going to take your own advice.

" no peace. YOU are in arab land, you should follow arab rules." SO WHEN we KICK your ass back to the 6th centry will you stop crying like stuffed pig

Judging by the style and content ,(or rather lack of) I may be wasting my time but what the hell. Google UN and then under resolutions search for res 273 and read.Pay particular attention to res194. Therein lies the solution to your confusion.it is just a google away. Have a good day.

Stop picking on the Jews. That land is thiers. You need to read a copy of the deed its called the bible. Divinely given to them and affirmed throughout the old ansd new testaments. Sooner or later this will all be fulfilled as every prediction of the Hebrew prophets will come about and Messiah will return. Islam will be destroyed on the mountains of Israel. Ezekiel 37 thru 39. The Jewish prophets never miss. Allah is the moon god not the God of Abraham When all the dust of nuclear war settles Israel wiull still be there as Hebrew prophets said

As the Rolling Stones sang, "You can't always get what you wa-ant"

Check Israel,s acceptance into the UN . RES 273. Israel committed to abiding by Resolutions 181 and 194 the latter which gaurantees the "Right of Return or compensation" for those refugees not wishing to return. Google UN and then search under resolutions . Hope that clears it up for you and saves you wasted time.

Howdy Fatah Supporter; There is no such thing as a "right of return" unless it is granted by the country in question. UNSCR 194 mentions the desirability of refugees returning to their homes, but it is not binding nor enforceable and was replaced by UNSCR 242 which calls for a "just settlement" of the refugee problem. Israel has already absorbed most of the 860,000 Jewish refugees generated between 1948 and 1967. Of the 750,000 Palestinian refugees who for the most part voluntarily fled in 1948 most of them were tenant farmers, renters, or migrant workers who owned no property. Most of these are deceased. The vast majority of the approximately 4 million so-called "Palestinian refugees" today were born outside of the State of Israel and are not her responsibility. If you want your Islamic Waqf lands of Israel, Spain, and southeastern Europe back again, then come and get them. Good luck!

If somebody would (...) demand the Israeli government to adhere to three demands of the international community - follow previous agreements - accept Palestine's right to exist - no violence (and state terror) .... it would just be a joke. In addition, settlement building would continue, East Jerusalem would be annexed and changed once and for all to make sure that a Palestinian State could never function or even exist.

the israeli government makes me nauseous.

What you see out of Israel is similar to what we saw from the Bush admin in the runup to the Iraq War...nothing was good enough, no to this, no to that...they wanted WAR... With Israel and her supporters it is the same: They want to maintain the status quo because it allows them to continue colonizing, ethnic cleansing, and maintaining the draconian security apparatus. There is nothing particularly breathtaking about Hamas' statement....but the Israeli firster will always spin it the same... NO to peace talks at all costs. It's a pity, but history is hardly ever kind to those who reject normalizing relations with one's neighbors.

I complitli agri whit u israel shuld live by arab ruls kiling arabs athey kiling israelis good opoint,

Double Click if you think the Arabs would let Jews live in there country in peace you are a fool or a liar or you?re a ?no brainier? please pick one

All of us know hamas is a movement, an islamofascist movement, to be exact, part of the global jihad, as hamas itself claims in its charter. That is why some of us don?t like it A movement like that cannot be the good guy because it is evil. We discussed that poll here. It is known there are anti-Semites all around the world and some media too, one of them being BBC.

"You still remember the distance between Lisbon and Tel Aviv which you claimed is...a short trip away" - You do realise I can fly to Israel and be back in Portugal in time for dinner. If that is not a 'short trip' then I dont know what is. "Which you claimed is not hundreds of miles" - I never said this you made it up. Idiot.

"I have never heard of any refugee situation...how a child can be born in 2007 have the same status as an adult who left Israel is 1948" - You say you have never heard of such a thing well please let me enlighten you. You have Afghanis coming home for the very first time since Taliban rule and the Timorese returning to Timor-Leste. You forget that this is the international standard, this isnt something that applies to just Palestinians but is a right that is inherent to all human beings. "The territory the Palestinians claim...legally doesnt belong to them" - Well the international community maintains a different standard, that land occupied illegally since 1967 is Palestinian. "If Hamas crashed planes into a skyscraper...would that be legitimate resistance" - Its just as legitimate as Israel dropping hundreds of thousands of cluster bombs over Lebanon's residential areas of the south as the war was drawing to a close. So tell me again how you are innocent?

What orthodox government advocates violence, lies, murder, and death? And still is accepted by the world community? Apparently, the PA/PLO under a unified banner of terror. Neither Abbas or Haniyeh are playing this farce well. When Arafat did it, the UN/EU/US thought he might actually be looking to help his people. Lie, lie, lie--but it sure fooled Jimmy Carter....and now NO ONE should be fooled. These "leaders" are on the grand stage of exposure--a platform of ignorance--since they have AGREED to continue "resistance" (that's TERROR, in case you only read the article once)!

a long time ago. When a people are taken pver by terrorist and gangsters as is the case of the Palestininas on WB and in Gaza they lost their right to a nationhood and a state. Your terrorist way of blowing buses, wedding halls, schools, bakeries and attemting to blow up hospitals like the lady treated at Soroka who try to blow up the few weeks later Hospital is a sign of a corrisve maliase among your people. You blew it starting with the following of Yassir Arafat who showed to be a simple terrorist dictator and not willing to run PA in democratic ways. he was also stealling the aid money for his "family" in France. After him you elected by a big majority the terrorist Hamas. You should have your first song next year at Eurofest: Don't cry for me Palestina, I am Suha and I am well taken care Off....La, La, La

"The support of irrealistic ideas such as the so called right of return" - I support this ideal as a basis for human rights for all people, regardless of race, religion and territory. Id much rather maintain the very standards of humanity that are designated by the UN and be called and 'idealist' then become some critically-deficient North American.

Those rights are also for Jews. So, if the pals attack and Israel retaliates, I hope nobody protests.

Click: before you don your suicide belt, by resistance they mean open-ended war against the Zionist entity, that, by their charter "occupies" the Palestinian wakf from river to sea. This is primarily a problem for the EU that now has to contort itself to get money to cash-starved but ever-feisty Hamas.

Why do you think you have any position to intimedate Israel or anybody else. Who do you think you are scaring with your resistence. How far has it gotten you and your pal monkies. You have this fantasy that we are cowaring in are homes like mice hoping you don't get mad. Who cares, We as a nation are stronger, smarter and much more paitent then you. You should thank Allah everyday you still are breathing. Your idealogy is twisted and without foundation. Go resist all you want. We stand back and pick you off the fence like pigeon sh-ting on the wall. Please return to your home land of your ancestors by all means I will even chip in for your ticket. It will be nowhere close to Israel as it has never been and never will. It is justice that you pals are taken the blame for all the land grabbing and war your muzzy brothers have caused for years to all people of the world. Sleep well fatah boy the Idf is knocking on your temperary door and there is no other place with a open door for you.

""Instead of recognizing Israel and renouncing terror the emerging Palestinian government has decided to spring backwards," said David Baker, spokesman for the Prime Minister's Office. "This is not what we were hoping for and flies in the face of the international community's demands of the Palestinians. Once again, they haven't provided the goods," he added." Israel wants total surrender from the Palestinians. It wants them to offer recognition, abandon the armed struggle against their cruelty and occupation and to acquiesce in the land theft that has already taken place. And what is it offering in return? Nothing. No promise to stop stealing land, no cancellation of the new settlement at Maskiot, no suspension of Landgrab Wall building, not even firm peace talks...nothing. The only thing that is likely to happen is that the criminal starvation blockade imposed by the two co-conspirators, Israel and America, might - just might - be lifted. Chutzpah - they name is Israel.

read more. About West and East civilisation, learn...usually whos the bad guy, you no manner geek.

Yes, the question has to be asked. while I was painting today, I listened to the BBC. What struck me for most of the morning was the BBC's bizarre and eery silence regarding the whereabouts and fate of their intrepid reporter Alan Johnston. I understand that the BBC does not want to upset his kidnappers. Not until 2:00PM Israeli time did they mention his name. He was part of a report which praised Haniyeh of Hamas, for saying that he would look into the issue. so if the BBC is too scared to ruffle Hamas feathers, then maybe they should refrain, until the return of Johnston, from reporting at all from Palestine. it is painfully obvious that at this time when they worry about the fate of Johnson that they cannot be free to criticize elements that have kidnapped the gentleman. This feeling of fear will forever sit like a black cloud over BBC reporting in the future.

I would not use the adjective "finest" if I were you. It is an insult to people from the beautiful city of Toronto.

Beware, pals. By this, the hamas-fatah government mean they will keep you at war, as usual.

However, that has not happened. Palestine was comprised of Jewish AND Arab Palestinians. Then, 80% was given independence and renamed Jordan. The remaining 20% was to be partitioned into 2 states w/ borders and govts based on demographic MAJORITY. Jews accepted, Arabs rejected and promised genocide. And they tried and failed. (Also, according to the UNRWA about 1/3 of all "palestinian refugees" NEVER lived in palestine and never had ancestors who did either...fakes seeking welfare payments.

Look at haniyeh's photo and come again claiming the palestinians are starving. What a laugh.

UN Resolution 194-but it is subject to "implied" interpretations and conditions.

you seem so angry and confused that I just can't leave you alone....your anger blinds you......the philisophical quote by Neitzche you ripped on also applies to the people you see as enemies.....so now do you like the quote a little better.----- blind hate

This is a negation of the OSlo accords which established the PA and that The PA is now renouncing. In all logics, Israel should re-occupy the territories expell or arrest the PA officials and fight themselves against terror. Like they did successfully before 1993.

The international community did not save us from you and your Arab brothers. Allah did. Examine your own way of thinking. Use your head. If the Jews don't fight you like you fight them, why is it? Life is more important than honor.

That is what I propose. Palestinian state is created in WB and Gaza with East Jerusalem as a capital of Palestinian state. Holly sites are made accessible to every body regardless where sites are. Refugees can settle anywhere on the territory of the Palestinian state NOT in Israel. Borders of the states have to be defined through negotiations. That is briefly. I wonder if I?ll be the only one proposing anything?

Palestinian shall not know "once upon a time".

I thought all arabs were siding with palestinians.

maybe you should shut your mouth and open a book on philosophy...or is that illegal where you are from or are you just too much of a fool to actually read a whole book?

No one can doubt that the Hamas leaders mean what they say. They are true, bloodthirsty enemies of Israel and of the Jews everywhere. The threat they represent is another matter entirely. The more credible threat to Israel's well-being is the government of Israel that - perhaps under irresistable pressure - unilaterally ties the hands that would defend the Israelis from their murderous neighbors.

Now I know where the problem is. See most of the people nowadays get more then elementary education even in Lisboa. I was always wondering why you have a habit of calling people idiots in the first sentence of your reply but elementary education explains it all. I hope you still remember the distance between Lisbon and Tel Aviv which you claimed is not hundreds of miles but a short trip away.

Your denial of right of return is Bull_S. like a woman wailings "2000 years ago, we lives here...is our homeland..is jews land..god gave us" we live her decades ago, we want it back.

I descend from some of those Jewish refugees. Thank you for understanding others. I hope there will be more like you.

Adam, to be honest, I wouldn't expect from the Hamas guys to "make love" with Israelis. If they only would restrain in the future from rocket and suicide attacks, that would be more than enough (emotional) "nearness". At least for now...:)

Cheers for hamas he says!! Tell me Tosefta in what world are you living.You are the most self deluded person I have seen in ages.You simply blind yourself to reality,you are one major wierdo buddy.Happy trails to la la la land!

Why doesn?t the terrorist gang explain clearly -that by ?resistance?, they mean ?jihad? -that ?occupation? means that the Jewish country was once occupied by Muslims and so, by jihad rules, it belongs to Islam forever. Herein, the true owners of the country, the Jews, are called ?occupiers?. -that ?right to return? means ?invasion. -that ?independence? means depriving the true owners of Israel, the Jews, of their land and the annexation of Israel to the ?Great Arab Nation?.

Israel, with all due respect, lets look at all sides of the equation. Its only when we find the truth will you be safe. Hamas according to George Soros is a movement - by the people for the people. IOA/IOF is an occuping army or organization. BBC news in 2007 launched a survey that said Israel is the least like country in the world. Why did this survey say that? Who is the terror "ORGANIZATION" not "MOVEMENT"?

Danite, I am just not having enough Insight into the inner thinking of Hamas to make a judgement about their long term goals. However I do believe that Hamas, like any other movement in this world does have a more extreme as well as a more "moderate" wing. Hanijeh is definitely part of the more "modera- te" wing. So I still think it would be worth for the West as well as Israel to use the backdoor-diplomatic channels and start engaging them into a serious discussion (you won't have to lift all the sanctions for that). As a Swiss I can tell you, there is never any- thing wrong with talking, as long as you keep firm on certain positions. The British decided to start a serious discus- sion with the IRA a few years ago, and it paied off. And believe me, the IRA guys were quite an exteme bunch of people, not a piece of cake to deal with them....

Israel, America and the West need to take time off on this indefinitely. There is no point working on this because the dark forces think they can get away with their craps. It is time for Israel and America to forget about this indefinitely till the dark forces come to their senses and learn to reject hate, belligerence and violence and become peaceful nation builders. Until then, it is a waste of time, resources and effort to deal with the dark forces. The world should pressure the dark forces states to accommodate their fellow dark forces in their own vast countries. The dark forces should stop encroaching in Israel and trying to usurp Israel's biblical and historic homeland from the Jews.

Q.DID ARABS THREW ISRAELIS TO THE SEA? A.No, because IDF & IAF were brilliant. Right?? "then you cry to the international community" which WW2 german victim cried to the international community and plotted zionism. Do not denied.

Haniyeh acknowledged that winning Israeli support would be difficult.

"I`v got twin towers in New York to sell you." Joe you are a typical wiseguy Arab with nothing to sell but words and hatred because like a muslim terrorist you already did your work on those buildings. May you try & play hide the salimi with all your virgins BUT THE JOKE WILL BE ON YOU because you'll go there where ever without a salimi.

God, as Judge of the universe, brought judgment upon the wicked practices of the heathen people in the land of canaan. HE ordered the Israelites to destroy all of the canaanites and their neighbors. the israelites obeyed only PARTLY,and the wicked nations that were LEFT caused them many problems in the years come. ...in about seven years, much of CANAAN was under Israel's control, and the LAND was divided among the TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL. .....the palestinians are taught in school that Jesus and Moses are Palestinians.what a LIE! HAARETZ, PLEASE POST THIS.

Which International law are you referring to? Where is it written? You will save all of us a lot of problem by just pointing out the law to us.

'Israeli can whine all they want, but the right of return to Palestinian refugees is guaranteed under international law' Pure and utter bullshit. There is no such law.

I must be naive. I see lots of flexibility in the language of the Palestinian statement. What is recognition of a refugee issue? What does "respect" mean? What form of "resistence?" To me, these are intangibles. It would be prudent to see how events play out. See if the unified Fatah-Hamas coalition stops violence in Gaza and from Gaza. See if the PIJ rockets from Gaza stop, perhaps at unity security forces insistence.

On the one hand, the unity government says they will continue jihad on Israel and, on the other, that they will respect previous agreements with Israel. The first commitment you came to in previous agreements is to stop attacking Israel.

Whay is anyone surprised? Did you honestly believe Abbas and Haneya were forming a sewing circle or a new democratic Palestinian State? Give me a break. They are only manuvering to try and get the worlds welfare back and building up their forces and weapons in the meantime. While they blame Israel for poverty and starvation the war against Israel continues.

the purpose cannot be good. It has an advantage, though. The Fatah gang has unveiled its true face. They have always been at it. I still remember Abbas praising the suicide bombers as heroes and, at the same time, pretending he was a man of peace. It has now been made clear, pals are a rogue state.

Only stupid PHILISTINES like you! FOOL, you are boxing with the moon. The world says to Our unholy arab legion in Gaza to HELL, you can go now!

It's obvious that the PA govt. is not serious about having a state. These Arabs are nothing more than Ex-Jordanians and Ex-Egyptians who were left stranded after the Arabs ill-fated war against Israel in '67. Israel should have relocated all of them to their existing countries after the war. Now the left leaning, pro-Arab oil, anti-Jewish European states can't do enough for these misfits of the middle east. These Arabs (aka Palestinians) have been pawns for two generations and will continue to be pawns for the next 50 yrs. What is the definition of losers?

Lynn, in a just world, the refugees should be allowed to return. But since this isn't a just world, they will have to live with the (sad) fact that they can't. The same way the Schlesien Germans and many, many others had to find a way to live with it (actually some of them are still "fighting" today for their right of return). So you see this is a very emotional issue, and the International community will have to be (financially) gracious with the Palesti- nian refugees. By the way, as critical as I am when it comes to certain Israeli policies, there are not many countries around the world, where I have as much comprehension that they won't let all the refugess come back as Israel. Simply for historical reasons.

Dear Friends, Arabs, including "palistinians" backed the Germans in WW2. When the West won that war the LOSERS lose something. In this case it was decided tha the Jews, who were kicked out of Arab countries over the last 2,000 years had the "right of return", to the land promised by Allah(PBUH) to Moses(PBUH), the land of Milk and Honey. Do Muslims dispute Allahs will that is spoken to Moses that Allahs people be given this land? Does it state anywhere that Allah recinds his covenent with His people? I do not recall Allah expressing His desire for Muslims to be given any land yet I can show and every religion of the book understands Allahs agreement with the Jews, the Hebrews, the Israilites, that the land of Milk and Honey belongs to the Jews, forever. Can you show me otherwise?

Your nasty epithet to KUTW should NEVER have been allowed on this Talkback. As it happens, KUTW is far more educated on the subject than you seem to be. Besides, your insistence on a "right of return" is a load of bull. If you accepted a 2 state solution, with peaceful coexistence, you would indeed have a right of return, but just not to the exact spot where your great grandfather may have lived -- or been a hired farmhand who came from elsewhere in the Arab world. You would get a right of return to a Palestinian state that would not encompass all of historic Palestine, just as the Jews would not get a right of return to all of their historic homeland. But you can't seem to see as "justice" anything that recognizes another people's rights, only yours. Typical, sadly.

Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900) words of wisdom actually refers to US and (macho/muscle) west.

There has never been a case in which Muslims have lived peacefully as a minority. I challenge anybody to disprove this statement.

As usual, you hit the nail right on the head; except, I would add, it is lower than the lowest common denominator. Yet they are really happy about it.

...there would be nobody left to support Fatah. You want to be all macho but when the IDF responds to the Qassams, bombings and shootings by your "brave warriors", then you cry to the international community. You want to fight but you don't want to be fought. You're lucky you're fighting against Jews, who have a concience, unlike you.

Israel and the American Jews can speak for the White House and Congress, but not for the American people and the world. Who appointed Israel to speak for the world.. Certainly not Allah, God or G-d. Please PM be little modest. Your opinion is not the world opinion. You may have power over George Bush and Dick Cheney, and the Congress, but the world is more than that.

Or would Israel prefer.... 1.Hamas recognizes the right of Israel to exist on whatever borders it prefers. 2. The entire West Bank (Judea & Samaria) belong to Israel in perpetuity. 3.The right of return for Palestinians is ceeded, and the refugees renounce any claims for compensation. 4. Israel should draw up the borders for a Palestinian state, which Hamas will unconditionally accept. ....and you can keep all the tax revenue.

wtf are you mumbling about?

Jekyll and Hyde of Arafat are once more united in falseness, and duplicity. Do these so-called pals care one iota for their Pal brothers that have been treated "worse than dogs" and "used as pawns" for 60 years by the Arab League. Do they want more starving Pals, by overburdening their inadequate infrastructure. They have unlawfully used western aid for terror and weapons then whine they are hungry, when one can easily see the fat faces of the leaders. One can easily see the wasted bullets fired in the air to prove their twisted arab macho and hate. Do they fight to have their brothers accepted in Arabic countries. No these jihadhist losers are ONLY interested in the gang game of destroying Israel while billions of charitable aid gets wasted on mendacity and hate, and billions get funded into terror and terror support. So sad is Arab hate that arabs treat arabs far worse than any western would ever treat them, and the masses are fooled that their suffering is for a higher purpose-JIHAD

"PA stance flies in the face of international demands". Really? It seems to me those are the demands of Israel and its sugar daddy only? Had it not been for the exuberant pressuer of the USA, the quartet will be more than happy to deal with any PA government including a Hamas government. In fact, practically every nation on the face of this planet condemns Israel for its actions against the Palestinians and the obstacles it continuously create whenever there is a movement towards a peaceful solution. Let's face the facts, Israel is a colonial state that has no interest whatsoever in reaching a meaningful settlement with the Palestinians or even its neighbors. It will be more than happy to dictate terms. Its end will be as violent as its begining.

If Arabs want a right of return, why aren't they blowing up cafes in Saudi Arabia.. that is where arabs hail from isn't it?

Israeli can whine all they want, but the right of return to Palestinian refugees is guaranteed under international law, and thus the rights of each individual civilian to return is their right as is the right to resist the occupation of their lands by Israel. Unless Israel wants to continue to be in a state of war and wallow in the graft and corruption that permeates Israel at every level, they must work with the Palestinians as equals as Israel is equally, if not more, to blame for the Palestinians for the decades of violence that both have suffered under.

This new government will promote violence and snob their nose at the international community, what will the day to day life of Israelis and Palistinians be like.... ISRAELIS: Will suffer future suicide bombings and other Palistinian Violence. Blood will be spilled. PALS: The seige will continue, and if the PALS think they will win through violence and not negotiations... their lives will remain the same... constanct check points, targeted assiniations etc. ISRAEL WILL CLOSE THE BORDER AND CAUSE loss of work to 1000s if PALS... To quote John Lennon... "all I am saying is give peace a chance!" The average Pal will suffer far more than the average Israeli, is the PAL government really looking out for their best interest?

The only thing "new" in today's first declaration by the Pal "Unity Gov't" was their first honest presentation of themselves as a unified front of emnity against us. No more the factional charade of a shell game, wherein one terrorist group assumes the mantle of "powerless moderate" while the other terrorists play the "extremists". The mask and the gloves are off, and we must face this reality. Those current "leaders" of our nation who live in denial do themselves and us no favours. They and we will be called to account if we do not face reality and accept responsability for our own national well-being instead of depending on the mythical good-will of "the international community" who have engineered this exact situation from the beginning.

"Insanity in individuals is something rare?but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule." Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)

The cults inability to accept other cults on it's turf, is the main source of friction. Incitment in Mosques, education and the media is another. Years of violent hate indocrination have come home to roost in your very own streets, Your generations raised up to destroy Israel, instead, devour themselves. Letting them loose on Israel's cities would be retribution and not restitution, and would only serve to increase violence and hate. I could envision a money settlement that provided the legitmately disposessed just compensation for their loss. Pals should ask their outside Arab Masters if it's OK to accept money .Don't do anything till you check with them.

3.) Palestinian Arabs must cede the right of return in return for which Israel will have removed Israeli citizens from what will become Palestinian territory. 4.) In addition, Israel must provide compensation to Arabs who can prove that they were displaced by Israel in 1948. The right of return must be resolved through Palestinians moving to what will be Palestine and not Israel, otherwise it makes the whole purpose of a state called Palestine seem more like Arafat's two-step solution. 5.) Israel must allow any Israeli Arabs who wish to move to Palestine to easily do so, and must compensate them adequately enough to allow them to acquire land in Palestine. 6.) All parties must apologize to each other. 7.)The Arab world, in return for Israeli concessions must renounce violence and recognize Israel's right to exist. 8.) All parties must sign a formal agreement stating that they will not initiate any violent acts against the other, and should they do so, retaliation is permissable

"You can`t talk back an arab." you mean in your world you can talk back injusticely? Could you be more specific, dont corrupt the actual subject, like just KUTW did?

"How come that Clickfool knows about "Maskiot deep in the West Bank" maybe more than Sussex "The Clickfool-Land". Such perseverance in minute details makes one wonder as who is feeding information to our dear friend Clickfool." LOL! It's that very wicked Israeli publication called Haaretz that feeds such secret information to me, Nora. Do you just read the Funnies?

http://www.conceptwizard.com/pipeline_of_hatred.html As long as there is hatred, there will never be a chance for peace.

The idea of a unity government is ok but because there was no demands on either of them the agreement has to be understood by the west that the unity government doesnt represent a mixture the two maybes in the forefront of Palestinian politics,but the lowest common denominator of the two. We are ONLY dealing with Hamas. We are ONLY dealing with those friends of Ahmandinejad and Assad, Baas marginalized himself to do this for he is not big or not brave enough to take the Palestinians where they need to go. And Hamas is Hamas.

you say that because you are angry. all your intelligence, power and money and all our "stupidity" didn't lead to the success of your racist zionist project. i would be angry too, if i were a jew. but i am a proud "stupid" palestinian. i also thank GOD for having enemies like you and i am happy that more and more are joining you in america and other places. this is yet another proof that you're "smart".

The Jewish people base their claim to the Land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 2) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people; 3) the territory was captured in defensive wars and 4) God promised the land to the patriarch http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/nutshell/conflict_2.html

The force and energy used to beat them down and remove them,will be used against you.That is human nature.Their is nothing devine about it.

...not for 108. Sorry for the error.

What is extreme then? Here in there own words Hamas says they want to destroy Israel: http://www.pmw.org.il/tv-hamas.htm

The "Palestinians" have now formally decided to abandon both the 2-state solution and the vestiges of their Oslo commitments. Israel should do the same, since there is now a regime in the W. Bank and Gaza with the same policy toward Israel as the pre-1967 regimes at war with Israel. Essential first steps: 1) cut off all supply from Israel of fuel, electricity, water and medical services to PA residents. 2) cut off all access of PA residents to Israel's shipping ports and transit system. 3) Cut off all permits to work in Israel, and Israeli shipping of PA products. 4) Ban all travel across Israel soil or Israeli airspace by PA residents, including VIPs. 5) seal the Philadelphi route and the Jordan bridges to PA traffic, a war is on. 6) Immediately annex the Gush Etzion, Maale Adumim (including E-1 corridor), Ariel blocs, as well as the entire 20km wide Jordan rift valley strip ("Allon Plan"), and northern strip of Gaza from which Kassams are fired at Sderot. Next move up to Hamastan.

Shmuel Trigano: Yes. There was an exchange of populations, as 600,000 Jews displaced from Arab countries immigrated to Israel, on the one hand, and on the other, 540,000 Palestinians displaced after the creation of Israel found themselves in several Arab countries. Those 600,000 Jews were stripped of all their belongings. They too lived in ?transit camps.? We have a battle to fight on an international level, because this chapter of the history of the Jews from Arab lands has been completely hidden. http://christianactionforisrael.org/isreport/june02/forgotten.html

Did you ever use mirror?

I actually didn't write #4

Jews leaving voluntarily after the Roman-Jewish wars? i think you need to re-examine the history books. its called an EXILE for a reason.

... demands and norms of international relations!!! How can a political entity expect to be treated seriously when it states clearly that it would not accept signed, note, signed agreements, unless they deem those agreements in their interest? How can a political entity expect to be treated seriously when its respresentation at the UN, in the status of an observer, would call for the annihilation of a member state of the UN in good standing? How can a political entity expect to be treated seriously when its very government is hebind the political and military activities of terror gangs operating in its name? Neither Israel, nor Europe and North America should interact with this Hamas entity and its government if they want to be viewed with any degree of respect, none!!!!!