PM: Israel will work to expose Iran nuclear program

You refuse to admit that the Iran Government "brainwashed", or at least participated in brainwashing, the minefield kids by giving them the plastic "key to heaven" during their short National Service. (It was not given to them by their parents.) Ok. Your logic fails. In your standard rhetorical technique of avoidance you have introduced yet another jink: "It`s not an accident that Israel serves for many think-thanks of this world as a deterrent example of how NOT to solve an ongoing conflict." Ok, put up or shut up. Examples please! where did you get that information? And please, defend the quantifier "many". I want to see your explanation and evidence that *many* "think tanks of this world" are doing this. Good luck!

I see that you are one of those people who think that all nations should have access to equal weapons. I wonder, then, why the US is spending absolute fortunes to stay ahead in its weaponology. Iranian missiles are in no way part of my vision of peace in the ME. The Shahaab-3, which is said to be not very accurate, can have for use the devestation of civilian populations in cities. Obviously, there is no way to stop the missile development, but that is different from saying "Why shouldn't they?" You did not answer my point regarding the danger to US troops in the region. I realise that most are technologically protected, so maybe you are not concerned. Dana is cooking you chickensoup? I thought she was a vegetarian! Poor darling, you were miffed by "hubris?" You had said worse stuff to me. Happy Christmas and NY.

So, how will you know if Cipora apologizes if you won't read her posts? Couldn't resist asking. Didn't realize I told lots of stories tho... since you did make some mention of me???

And Israel will not withdraw from the territories until a peace agreement is signed, sealed and delivered. It's called *Land for Peace* for a reason and has been a general principle throughout modern history. Or.. Suing for peace is another term commonly used, where the loser in a war sues for peace... and asks What do I need to do to have peace? Strangely in this situation, Israel was the clear victor, yet the Arabs have STILL managed to turn things around, getting Israel to beg for peace...making concession after concession...for naught. THIS is why there is no peace. The Arab regimes haven't been *hurt* enough yet. Until that time they will not care to have peace.

Swiss.. pack your bags, join the IDF... Israel cmpletely withdrew from Gaza a couple years ago. Since then the Kassams have increased from Gaza. Other than attempts to control the illegal arms shipments into Gaza Israel does not occupy Gaza andhasn't for several years now. Overflights are not occupation. Retaliatory mortars to destroy the kassam launchers and factories are not occupation. Closing the border between Israel and Gaza is NOT occupation. So, go ahead. pack your bags and join the IDF. Of course...I doubt they would take you. BTW.. EVERY city In the West Bank that Israel has handed over to PA control has subsequently increased it's violent attacks against Israel. NOT a good foreboding of what would happen on full withdrawal if a peace treaty was to be had. Course that won't happen because the Pals don't want peace WITH Israel.. they want peace in PLACE OF Israel. Certainly, that is what theyare educating their children to believe and fight for.

How many ballistic missiles has Israel fired at her enemies or threatened to fire? I'll give you an answer. none. zero. zip. Same with Turkey. pakistan is a different story....they seem to be balancing India in that respect. How many ballistic missiles has Iran fired at it's enemies? none...yet. How many has it threatened to fire? "thousands" at Israel to destroy Israel. Israel has actually turned their ballistic missile technology to civilian use.. communication satellite launches, etc...

Swiss....whether the kids are throwing stones in Israel proper or in West Bank area, the fact is, until such time as a viable peace treaty is reached, Israel is in control of the West Bank and has every right to police, patrol, and defend the military police...policing the area. So, either those children stop inciting or such things as...curfews, roadblocks, home searches, etc.. happen. The problem is the Arabs refused time and time again to 1. support any kind of land for peace negotiations...for 20+ years. Instead, the Arab regimes supported and still support to this day, violent hatemongering organizations like Hamas, Hezbollah, PFLP, etc... Start placing responsibility and blame where it's due, and the Palestinian people might actually gain a country. As long as the Arabs try in their not so subtle way, to demonize Israel, the Palestinians will get next to nothing. Israel will become less willing to return land...because it becomes less likely Israel will get peace as result

Cipora Mozal tov, I didn?t say: missiles that you so blithly claim everyone should have:I was referring to the fact that every nation has the same prerogatives and entitlements or rights to arm itself as Israel has. If Israel can have weapons, it is ludicrous to attempt to assert that other states cannot. Should and may are not the same. Sometimes you misinterpret of misread what is written. Yes. Iranian possession of nuclear missiles and a credible delivery system would certainly affect American policy and actions in the Middle East. ~the US would not like it either, if Israel were attacked, regardless of any political differences, and regardless of who is in power.-Cipora America would not like it if anyone were attacked with nuclear weapons. Israel included. BTW, hubris is not how I look at myself. I think that you confuse me with Tim R. In fact, I will confess to a degree of ignorance that is rivaled by few on this site. But to be honest, the people that I do admire are those that seek a solution, or have a concept, however flawed it might be, due to ignorance or stupidity, to obtain peace in the ME that is viable and will stand the test of time. I mean no insult in telling you that your position strikes me not a problem solver, but as a person that can and will find a reason why a proposed solution is not feasible. I have always disliked a negative attitude. Not that dislike you, of course. I just recently wished you a merry Christmas, Hanukah, and other sentimental stuff. It is hard to get back into the mold of being and adversarial and insulting. Yes Cipora, I have to work at it, which is why I disappear at times. But trust me I will regain my status. Dana is providing therapy and chicken soup. You remind me of Mark: full of hubris and many stories. Cipora, I had already established that I am not overly impressed buy myself in # 336. Then in # 344, you accuse me of hubris. I don?t mind bigot or anti-Semite, but now you have crossed the line. I will not post to you or read your posts until I receive an apology.

"Why shouldn't day?" The US government is concerned about it, just as it is concerned about Pakistan. Ballistic missiles have only offensive uses. The US would not care one bit to have its forces in the ME targeted by these missiles that you so blithly claim everyone should have. But then, you would know all about this, having worked in the defense industry for forty years. You remind me of Mark: full of hubris and many stories. p.s. the US would not like it either, if Israel were attacked, regardless of any political differences, and regardless of who is in power.

Mark, The other thing in assessing the risk is the absence of a credible delivery system. The first two nuclear bombs, Fat Man and Little Boy weighed about 10,000 pounds apiece. It wasn?t until about 1952 that America was able to reduce their size and weight to put on a missile. I forget the details but it would seem that achieving this was significant in itself. Given the paranoia and belligerent mentality, no argument will satisfy those that want to take action. Or more to the point, want America to take action. BTW, I am originally from Abilene. I now live about midway between Oswego and Syracuse. The situation on the Onondaga reservation has improved some but not too much from your recent description. Also, I think I got the better deal than you in swapping locations. CNY is New York?s best kept secret.

Rob, I hereby promise to volunteer for joining the IDF in re-occupying the West Bank and the Gaza strip, should the Qassams and the stones keep on coming after an Israeli withdrawal. You can take that for granted. Swiss-Dino doesn't only talk the talk, he also walks the walk....:) P.S. However, 1 Quassam and 1 stone might not be sufficient for Dinos "little sacrifice", it would definitely take a few more...:) But please don't ask me now, how many exactly "a few" would be, maybe after a good sleep I can help you out with that.... Buenas noches.

This whole thing STINKS of a setup. Why would Bush take this one analysts report and RUN with it, stating all is safe with Iran? FORCING Israel to counter with `accurate` Intel? Its a chess game played by Rice et al. A game to put Israel as the fault for whatever is planned to go wrong. ISRAEL AND JEWS CAN DO NO RIGHT!-Jeff atl geo Jeff, The purpose of this report was to provide an intelligence analyses Iran?s nuclear program and if Iran is a threat America. Israel is not part of America and America is not responsible to Israel for its security. FORCING Israel to counter with `accurate` Intel?-Jeff Wrong, America is not forcing Israel to do anything. What Israel does is its own business. But considering the nature of your post I have to ask, which country are you loyal to? You sound as if you are more concerned about Israel than America. Are you American or Israeli?

Philippe, I will repeat it now once more: I have no comprehension whatsoever for the Iranian use of children for the cleaning of the mine fields. The use of children for combat in a war is strictly prohibited under International law. All I am saying is that the kids (most probably) neither had to be brainwashed or even pushed into doing what they did. It is simply part of the Shia culture. And with regard to Barak and Camp David: I am far from excusing all the Arab blunders with a "Middle Eastern mentality". I strongly criticized here on several occasions both Ahmadinejads call for the destruction of the "Zionist regime", as well as the unwilling- ness of Hamas to accept Israels right to exist. I also criticized the Arab league last spring for expecting from Israel to accept all their demands before entering negotiations.

What then is the purpose of their various long range missile programs? ?Stephen of New York Same as any other country. Pakistan, Israel, Turkey, and others all have missiles. Why shouldn?t they?

What Israel will, or will not do, cannot be predicted. Stop gloating. It is unseemly, and in no way advances your arguments. Of course, you rarely have an argument.

325Dino, Will Swiss soldiers then reoccupy WB and Gaza? Relating to your statement: "However, if you finally get out of the West Bank and the stones and Quassams keep on coming, the whole thing changes to a 100 %. Then the Palestinians will get the blame for every single Israeli casualty and rightly so. And then there will be only very few people left who would blame Israel for re-occupying the West Bank and Gaza. The "mainstream" of world opinion would then fully side with Israel."

S, Thanks for the compliment. I said that I would answer your question about lessons learned here on the TB. It is still in progress kinda. But a few observations for now. I went on the Internet and looked at some articles on the controversy. Lot of material about the political battle, etc. Nothing that gave any real explanation about the underlying argument. Your daughter?s description makes it much more clear. But to me and most Americans it would not be worth arguing about. But then again, it isn?t our history. All I know about archeology is what I have seen watching my dogs dig up bones. Which brings me to one my points. One of the opinions formed here is that Jews will argue about anything. Even what others would call trivial things. I remember a Jewish girl friend I had in Jersey, she often reminded me, that God, had described the Jews as a stiff necked people. I think that translated to being stubborn and argument. I think he?s right. I was in Egypt once and they constantly haggle. Whenever I took a taxi, I would establish the price before hand. When we were half way to my destination they would stop and attempt to renegotiate. I thing the Jews can take them on and do them one better. The other thing is, there are a lot of very educated people here on TB. Some of them are even intelligent and have common sense. I am here to ensure the average is maintained.

It is relatively simple to construct a nuclear device. It is exceptionally difficult to obtain the required nuclear materials. Several hundred engineers & physicists + a small allocation of government money and a few months of intensive work=a working nuclear device. However, obtaining the heavy radio-nucleotides require enormous expenditures, large workforce and hours of "industrial" type production. Iran is publicly & widely acknowledged to have the latter. Once having obtained the required nuclear materials, getting such a device probably can be measured in months.

You seem to be very proud of your daughter, and she is lucky to have a father like you. I am not versed in archeology per se, but the thesis of the controversy posits that scientific methodology is subsumed by politics, and that archeology itself is a political construct. At least, that is how I understood it. She relies on Edward Said, who was very critical of "Orientalism." Publication by the U of C is not in and by itself a recommendation, especially for a thesis which is this political. Laila Tov

First Haaretz reputation abroad (and only in Europe) is based on that fact that their reports are music to the ears of european media that are themselves biased against Israel. Personally I do not trust Haaretz, they have an habit of not reporting news that do not fit their agenda. They also are in the habit of manipulating interviews to the same purpose. 2 recent examples are with Finkelkraut and Kouchner. You choose to trust Haaretz more than Clinton and Ross who were directly involved in the talks. I do not. About Barak, he was truly genuine in the talks and maybe since he has learned his mistakes. Strange though that you take his reported statements to the letter while palestinian and iranian statement have to be interpreted within the context of middle-eastern culture. Settlement expansion could also be interpreted as getting more cards to the negotiating table.

In that case, how come it was not adults that sacrificed themselves in the minefields?

Philippe, I always said that the Palestinians (Arafat) made a big mistake in Camp David 2000. However, what I had to read here on Haaretz about Ehud Baraks "behaviour" in the days before Annapolis has (at least to a certain extent) changed my mind. If the Haaretz reporting is accurate (and I assume it is, considering Haaretz excellent reputation abroad...), then this guy and with that his offer from Camp David were simply not trustworthy. Why should the Palestinians have trusted Barak to give back 95% + of the West Bank, if the same Ehud Barak had intensified the settlement expansion over the years before like no other Israeli PM before him....??? Now, one could still have thought that he had changed his mind. Fair enough, until Haaretz reported about 3 weeks ago that Barak in a speech not only still fully supported the expansion of the regular settlements, but even praised the existence of the (even according to Israeli law) illegal outposts...!!!

Ovadia, no Ho-Hum at all....:) I will stick to every single word I wrote on this thread. Which means, I accept that Israelis are worried about Iran, because of the (bad) experiences the Jewish people made in the past. But after having analysed things in a rational way, I have come to the conclusion that the probability of an Iranian nuclear attack against Israel is below 3 %. And that includes your main argument, the Shia culture of self-sacrifi- ce. And those 3 % do even include your mega-horror scenarios. But I also have to stick to my other point, namely that with a more active, open-minded diplomacy, Israel would not find herself in the same (uncomfortable) situation today. It's not an accident that Israel serves for many think-thanks of this world as a deterrent example of how NOT to solve an ongoing conflict. I conceed, one could also see that as a "merit", but I assume it's a "merit" the Israelis people could easily live without...

Philippe, I guess your response stands vicarious for Israels problems in the region. If Israel ever wants to find a permanent accord with her neighbours (and I am talking about a "warm" peace and not a "cold" one), she will have to learn to respect different cultures (as unintelligible they may be to our Judeo- Christian way of thinking). The Shias in Iran may indeed choose one day the way of democracy, but that doesn't mean that they will get rid of their century-old rituals. And one (important) part of the Shia culture is the ritual of sacrificing your own life. And I still have to insist, in an act of defense (which was clearly the case with the Iran/Iraq war), the word "brainwashed" is not opportune.

RE:if she would only be willing to accept a fair compromise. Israel did in 2000, and we know what it lead to. Clinton and Ross confirmed that. They agreed to end the occupation and were even ready to give up on east Jerusalem. But the only fairness that the palestinians accepted was the destruction of the Jewish State with the so-called right of return (a first in history). Israel has shown that it is ready to give up land for peace, even a cold one like with egypt. Israel has every reason to distrust the other side, and Iran especially as they still have the same rethoric of destroying it (except for Egypt and Jordan).

That was mushy and sincere and all, but of course you have omitted to answer any of the challenges I put to the logic of your arguments. Ho-hum. Typical. Come out with searing hot rhetoric, when nailed in an error, decamp and toss a bouquet. Rather than face the issue, characterize your opponent's debating motivations. Twice in this thread you have done so: #123: "Ovadiah, in view of the history of the Jewish people I totally understand that you have a different perception of the Iranian (nuclear) threat..." #323: "The Israeli people and especially Israels politicians are giving a lot of thought to matters of security and defense. I don`t want to say that all of this is without reason, but if you would spend only a tenth of that time on the diplomatical front," See, you've tried to destabilize even the premise of my arguing with you. Israel has plenty of diplomatic accomplishments: successful emergence as a state, peace with Egypt and Jordan, etc. Dialectic trumps sophistry.

Yes I know, multiculturalism and cultural symetries are fashionable in Europe. Still I stand by my brainwash statement. There is a big difference between a religious ritual (as strange as it may seem to us) and thye deliberate sacrifice of these children. There is a lot of IFs in your post. And I don't ever see Israeli children be "convinced" to do the same.

However, if you finally get out of the West Bank and the stones and Quassams keep on coming, the whole thing changes to a 100 %. Then the Palestinians will get the blame for every single Israeli casualty and rightly so. And then there will be only very few people left who would blame Israel for re-occupying the West Bank and Gaza. The "mainstream" of world opinion would then fully side with Israel. But until that happens the "original sin" will unfortunately remain on Israels shoulders. I would say it's about time to get rid of it....

Mark, Rob, the little "problem" here is the fact that the kids aren't throwing the stones at your soldiers in the streets of Tel Aviv, West-Jeru- salem, Haifa or Eilat (your home-ground), but rather in the streets of Nablus, Jenin or Hebron (your away-ground). Or in other words, your soldier shouldn't be there in the first place. Now, of course you will bring the argument that as long as there are attacks against Israelis coming from the West Bank, you have the right to "defend" yourself. Again, that is the case indeed if you regard Gaza and the West Bank as Israels territory. Unfortunately for you the vast majority of people abroad (the so called International community) doesn't think so. Even Israels best friends (Bush, Sarkozy, Merkel) don't think so. Therefore, as long as you are not moving out of (most parts of) the West Bank, the first blame for Palestinian civilian casualties will always have to be put on Israel, no matter the circumstances.

Ovadia, posting here on Haaretz Talkback for about a good year now, I have learned one thing: The Israeli people and especially Israels poli- ticians are giving a lot of thought to matters of security and defense. I don't want to say that all of this is without reason, but if you would spend only a tenth of that time on the diplomatical front, Israel today would be the Switzerland (or rather the Goa...:) of the Middle East. Look, you can spend hours and hours thinking about new possible horror scenarios for Israel. But fact is this: 40 years ago Israel had all the reason of this world to be suspicious and worried about her Arab neighbours. Today the Arab world (and I personally believe also Iran, despite all the awful rhetoric...) is no longer out there for your destruction. The Islamic extremists could be totally marginalized and Israel live in peace and harmony with her more "moderate" Arab neighbours,if she would only be willing to accept a fair compromise.

Rob, whether there are men with guns behind the kids with stones is sort of irrelevant, I think. The fact is, by throwing stones, they are putting the wellbeing, if not the actual lives, of the sldiers at risk. Once they do that, the soldiers have every right to respond with force. Preferrably tear gas and/or rubber bullets, but even in those cases, there is the possibility one or more of the violent kids will get seriously hurt. This is how the Intefadeh started....Hamas / PLO *moles* inciting the kids to violence, and Israeli soldiers responding in an effort to quell the violence and reinstate order. Notice, how the Palestinians have had some success in demonizing the Israeli military police just trying to maintain law and order. Those who want to believe the worst about Israeli military police use the propaganda, and twist the truth/reality very well indeed. But I also blame the moderates who actually believe the twisted truth/reality for taking the Pal propaganda at face value.

"By the way", Swiss, if it all seems far-fetched to you consider that the first action taken by the Russian generals who had arrested Gorbachav during *their* coup, was to order preparation for an immediate nuclear test that would end Russia's participation in the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty. Just to say who has the balls, and to tell George Bush Sr. to back off. He didn't. He called their bluff and pressed for the immediate release of Gorbachov. He won, but that was pretty scary. Yes, Swiss, that's the "real world" that decision makers operate in. A bit different from the sterile risk-free cyberspace that you inhabit.

316Dino Behind the kids with stones are usually men shooting guns.

Running away from the main argument is an old tactic. You said the Iran Government didn't have a hand in ideologically directing the suicide kids. I proved they did. You may now say, "doh, I was wrong". Possession of nukes is a very serious business. The maintenance of command-and-control authority over the devices is paramount. Suppose a situation arises in which the Government of Iran is toppled in a coup (very possible). To prove who has the balls, and to forestall foreign interventions and adventures, the army detonates a test nuke. Israel answers within 48 hours with a test. Up to now we are in the zone of the Cuban Missile Crisis with actual nukes going off (see my post above). Since everything is fluid, a group of Islamic loyalists, not having yet been weeded out of the command hierarchy or simply in deep cover in the army from the start, launches, in the hope that total war will vindicate their cause. You don't have to plan for things like that. Israel's leadership does.

So, people can throw potentially lethal, probably lethal stones, en masse, but people cannot defend themselves against those vicious attack. sweet!

Swiss writes "You can condemn certain attitudes, but at the same time understand that people in other parts of the world have different views on matters concerning life and death." So that undermines all predictability with regard to your trying to put a nuclear-armed Iran into a "Western" model of cost-benefit analysis. That all we are saying (to quote John Lennon).

...is allowing her soldiers to use lethal force against stone-throwing Palestinian children, you are not exactly in the position to condemn the Iranians for sending their kids through the mine-fields. Does sound a little bit like double-standards, doesn't it...???

Ovadiah, please read my # 268 to PETER SM. You can condemn certain attitudes, but at the same time understand that people in other parts of the world have different views on matters concerning life and death.

I read yours and ANY's you directed me to. Both very nice. ANY really made an effort to make clear his true position. I am glad I smelled he is a good man, in despite of his temper. I am indeed proud of my Israeli daughter. Her English comes from my two American daughters who spent during their entire childhood and adolescence, three summer months, every year, in Israel with me. And of course from talking to me...

The only traitors in our US Intelligence are those neocons like John Bolton who had hoped to get the US to bomb Iran, a country who has not attacked another in 2500 years. You and Fox News can sing the same refrain, but the American people heard about the report and will be unwilling to support bombing Iran. Zionists ALWAYS have some paranoid threat they want big brother to take care of. Truth is they are warmongers and the US voters have figured out about the neocon influence on our war and peace. High regards for Carter, Chomsky, Finkelstein and a host of other Jews and non-Jews who have pointed out the real deal. Too much Jewish influence on US affairs--small minority running things. Well, new day, new reality. Iran is not threat to Israel or the US. Have tea and put your tin war drum in the closet; that is what zionists get for crying "wolf" about Iraq. God is the author of justice and the NIE report is clearly justice. Glad the intelligence community chose to release it!

I sent you what my daughter wrote me in 3 parts. But now I am not sure if it went to this talkback or the one you directed me to. I'll watch for it.

The first archaeologists to excavate in Israel, during the 19th and early 20th cen. were devout Christians who came to the holy land in order to find proof for the scriptures. This is not good science, either. In the modern Israeli state of the 1950's, it is hardly surprising that the leading archaeologist of the era was a war hero, Yadin, who through his excavations in Megiddo, Hazor and Gezer, reconstructed the great kingdom of Solomon. He also, was digging with the bible in his hand since the archaeology has no reference to a king Solomon. In the past decade the "Yadin archaeology" was deconstructed and biblical archaeology received it's share of scorn for being highly bias. So, her claims of no jewish presence in historical Israel are total bullshit. The claim that archaeology is a patriotic tool in Israel is probably right, but so what? P.S. There's a very good book about the link between archaeology and the bible: "The bible unearthed" by Neil Silverman and Israel Finkelstein

"(although the territory and dominance of Jerusalem versus Samaria is still very much in debate). After that, history begins and archaeology is no longer the key player in historical reconstructions. It is also a fact that a people called "Israel" are mentioned by the Egyptian pharaoh, Merneptah (son of Ramses the great), already at 1200 BC, and they are considered an ethnic group, mentioned with Ashkelon, and so, possibly from that area (this inscription is sometimes called "Israel stela" and is displayed at the British museum). So, we know for sure that a group called "Israel" roamed these parts already in the 13 cen. BC, and that later on this group formed a national state in the Judean hills and the Samarian mountains. Yet, Part of El-Haj's claims of "politization" cannot be ignored, and actually are rooted in Israeli research of the last decade.

Here is what my daughter wrote: "Well, I have seen this issue in the past. I haven't read the woman's doctorate but from her critics I understand there is a serious methodological flaw in her work. Mainly, the lack of sufficient evidential ground. In terms of science, this is bad research. However, the University of Chicago published her work, and this says quite a lot in her favor, since it has one of the finest schools of archaeology in the world. The fact remains that only some of the archaeological remains in Israel can be assigned to the biblical Jewish nation. Anything before the 10th cen. BC is "Canaanite" which nobody knows how and if are related to the biblical "Israel". The exact circumstance and date of the emergence of the Israelite state around 1000 BC is debatable, however, there is a consensus (based on hard evidence) regarding the existence of such a state from the 9th century BC till the destruction of the first temple in 586 BC - (continued)

Dana, I too am reasonably impressed with Obama. However, I don't think he has a snowball's chance in eck of winning an election if he was nominated as Dem Pres candidate. I don't think Hillary has a chance of winning either. Instead, I'd like to see Obama as the VP candidate on the Dem ticket. In that position, I think the ticket would be a strong ticket, hitting across a spectrum of voters. Mark-

The fact that each of the kids was handed the mass-produced plastic "key-to-heaven" indicates that indeed the government of Iran programmatically encouraged and did brainwash these kids. The great majority of these kids were below the internationally recognized age for combatants, currently one of the major issues about conflicts in Africa. They didn't turn the kids away: "sorry 8-year old Johnny, you are too young, but keep those shihad sentiments going!" They were given training on how to move in unison in the mine fields. They were quartered and delivered to the target minefields by the army. Do you justify this as well? Your theorizing that they simply showed up us volunteers is wittless and disgusting.

Well, hello to you too. Klaudia's Diner was reference to a previous poem she posted not long ago. You must've seen it. Was cute. But I opened a competing Bar and Saloon next door which was that much noisier and funner (naturally, as you'd expect, because you're a know-it-all, right?). Also I posted a message to you on this board http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/930826.html To congratulate on having an over-achieving daughter with good opinions. ANY was looking for you too, same place, different time. As for your "Of course Israel can do nothing whatsoever ( except, by revenge, only by revenge, perhaps, destroy Iran entirely).", don't count on Israel being entirely rational. Weirder stuff has happened. And the revenge you refer to - what for? a small guy shooting off his mouth? BTW, you're wrong about Mark Lincoln. He's gone cynical, yes, but so have many of us. Which candidate are you rooting for (ours, I mean, forget israel for a second)? Me, I'm an Obama girl, just like Oprah

Sorry Philippe, but I'm afraid you are (at least partly) wrong here, it's called a different "culture". Do you think all those Shia men tormenting themselves during the Shia festivities are "brainwashed"...??? By the way, I think in a war of defense (and Iran was clearly attacked by Iraq), it is rather a bit inadequate to use the term "brainwashed". Or would you use the same expression if Israeli kids (or rather teenagers...) would voluntarly apply for clearing minefields if Israel would be in immediate danger of losing a war...??? Probably not.....

I was looking for Klaudia's dinner on this TB and didn't find it. I like her a lot, although NOT her politics. Like you...Whoever likes to eat good is good at other things too. Anyway, your "That leaves Israel out to lunch, munching on crumbs. Common guys - you really gonna go it alone?" I very much doubt that even this lousy government of ours has any intention to "go it alone". They are competing with Iran who is a bigger mouth instead of quietly giving out whatever useful info they have to those who can do something about it. Of course Israel can do nothing whatsoever ( except, by revenge, only by revenge, perhaps, destroy Iran entirely).

"Whatever we do we are damned--and I would rather be damned standing up rather than lying down" ~Maurice Samuel "Context" Please.

Stealing Bomb Designs from America and importing Black Market Technology from Pakistan was not legal. Declaring before the UN the intention to destroy another UN member nation is also not legal. In purely technical terms, that was a declaration of war and if at war, bombing Iran would however be perfectly legal and well within the scope of self defense.

This report, which contradicts itself, is deliberately misleading and intended to undermine American Military Interests. There is no doubt about the Iranian Intentions, no significance to the changes in the Iranians Program, from the focus on stolen weapons technology, to duel use development that can always be redirected to completion of the military program. A bomb within a few years is unacceptable. An Iran that can negotiate through nuclear blackmail, an Iran that can engage in terrorism with nuclear impunity, a Nuclear Iran, is Unacceptable and if America mistakenly thinks it can risk such a thing, Israel will not and an Iran dealt with by Israel, is a Black Eye to America that will never heal. Traitors in America, are trying to Drag America to third world status out of Spite, trying to dismantle American defenses, trying to drive rifts between America and Israel, trying to sell American Industry to China and Saudi Arabia. This report, is clearly part of that.

I can just imagine the joy and relief that will meet any information indicating that Iran is indeed still actively working on an atomic bomb. This really is all pretty funny.

The Iranian regime is so much smarter than American intelligence. If there was something called Amrican intelligence, it now is dwarfed to a collection of more than sixteen bodies subject to either political or personal calculations of convenience, leaving objectivity not even as utopia. The good news is that this report won't last long in the headlines, and every day new countries, their intelligence officers and science researchers are diffusing the dust lifted by its hollow ambiguities and focusing on reality. It won't take too long until the stupidity of the NIE report will be exposed, and it certainly won't be as late as when an Iranian atomic missile is launched, or Iranian nuclear material is handed over to islamist terrorists.

Are you so naive? It's not hard to understand at all, it is called brainwashing.

No you are wrong. Israeli children are raised to love life. Unlike palestinian children that are raised to be shahids. They learn that by killing themselves while murdering others they will reach heaven.

Lakshmi the inventor of stories! Applied for patents on these lately? They are quite innovative! There is nothing in the US Constitution forbidding aid to countries with WMD. WMD did not exist then. There may be, however, something about stupidity?? It existed then and exists now more than ever. Denial of aid to countries with WMD is by Executive Order. Classifications of ?terrorists states? by the US Department of State mandates aid denial to countries so classified. Congress passed this some time ago in response to State sponsored terrorism. Iran is on the list, and so is Korea. For political reasons, even this law is circumvented by the executive branch for national security/interest reasons. Aid to Korea is such an exemption. Your patent application is denied again for fraudulent claims and non-imaginative lies.

A lot of arguments are pawned off as "common knowledge", and I don't know how reliable a source Mordichai Vanunu is. At the same time, there are lots of people here coming to unfounded conclusions about the NIE report without - it appears - ever having read it.

The only thing Olmert will expose is what an imbicile he is. "'Iran is continuing its efforts to enrich uranium, and according to the report is set to accumulate sufficient amounts to produce nuclear weapons by 2010,' Olmert told his political-security cabinet." Flash back to 2003. The following is from a Ha`aretz news article dated April 9, 2003. "According to Israel Defense Forces Military Intelligence assessments, Iran will cross the line of no return in another year, at which time it will be able to create fissionable material for bombs. By 2006, it will have operational nuclear weapons." Why would anyone still trust Olmert or Bush for that matter. Israel's leaders are doing exactly what the Nazi's did. They are fabricating an enemy for the people to hate.

Peter while I understand where you're coming from @ Iranian kids running over minefields u also should know Iranians have a TREMENDOUS sense of Patriotism. Dying for your Iran is something Iranians grow up w/ from birth & while some regimes(yet to be)forbid it,there's no law to force underagers to do it forcably. I know some people who were Persian descendants born/living in the so-called West who have openly said that if there's an attack on Iran they will go home to defend the country. Please don't come back biting my head off simply b/c I tried to explain the sentiment. What I'm saying is there is TREMENDOUS PATRIOTISM about IRAN in/out of Iran & perhaps that's the reason Iran/Persia has lasted for such a long time-as the oldest strongest civilization in our record history. If you knew Farsi you'd understand in EVERY SINGLE national anthem,dying for your country is mentioned as the highest rank/value..like I said pls don;t comeback biting my head off trying to explain the sentiment.

Lets see, Olmert freed pirsoners that the IDF opposed. Olmert allowed russia to build a cultural centre in Israel which is a KGb front trying to lure back jews to russia by any means. Shin Bet opposed but olmert relented. Olmert used ramon to advance all of his concessions again without getting assurances from IDF about missile defence. Olmert blocked the raid on syria causing delays. Olmert prevents a raid on gaza. So who cares what he says abbut iran. He has no credibility. Really any normal human would have resigned as peretz and halutz in the face of israeli opposition. one can only conclude that Olmert is mentally unfit so he doesn't realize the situation. Or he is a russian or arab agent who has been activated. One thing is obvious about Olmert-he can be easily intimidated and he is not able to reject russian or us advice.Finally it appears he never pressed Halutz on how he would take undergound bunkers with terror missiles that were bobbytrapped. He didn't seek other opinions.

Jane it's interesting that you mention your lack of confidence in the US intel agencies, that's been 'common knowledge' in the Iranian culture for over 5 decades, ever since the 1953 CIA coup of democratically elected gov of Dr. Mossadegh in Iran - we have known for decades now how awefully can US intel agencies go wrongly. I find it particularly interesting that you seem to acknowledge the the wrong-doings of 1953 yet advocate for the Iranians to forego their right to object to it and yet again expect the whole 75 million nation of Iran to forego their grievances about that incident and again you REFUSE to lighten up on the hostage situation of 79 (which was in reaction to the 53 coup, since 53 coup was staged out of the US embassy in Tehran). Just an observation......from an outside & objecgtive perspective, it doesn't llok so onjective and fair on your part......

"If 16 US intelligence agencies couldn`t find it, where is it, Nasib" Hands up - everyone who believes in the infallability of US intelligence. Even the Telegraph reports that UK intelligence thinks the US is incorrect.

I'd like to congratualte you on your short-sightedness of your gullible vision - with your hard-headed perspective that only contributed to the strengthening of the mullahs' regime (something that I, personally, have been warning about for the last 4 years). With your incredibly (how should I say this gently? oh yeah, stupidity!) you have managed to go from a scared regime that sent a frantic & scared secret 'comprehensive proposal' to Washington in 2003 during the moderate president Khatami to the hardheaded & extremist Ahmadinejad with his blown up double chin, you only have yourselves to blame. Your incredibly uni-dimensional perspective has not AND will not pay off. By now, the uranium enrichment process is an acquired knowledge for the Iranian scientists, and brace yourselves for all of OUR nightmares to take shape, since by Feb, Iran will be testing nukes. Thanks a LOT! How are you going to help the people of Iran to rid themselves of the mullahs' regime now?

273Dino Mein Kampf barked in the 1920's and bit in 30's and 40's A lesson to remember for all those who repeat the mistakes of the belittlers in the 1920's.

So are you saying that the US does not act to proctect its friends and will only act if it will keep the price of oil down? The US only got into WWII after if was bombed, so this backs up what you are saying. Do you suggest that it should only attack Iran after Iran uses atomic weapons? Do you really think that the Arabs will stop blaming the West after Israel is destroyed?

I am no fan of the mullahs. But after witnessing first hand how the international community turned its back on Iran during Iran-iraq war 1980-88, I can tell you that I am all for those long range missiles. I was there in Iran in the 80's witnessing the 'made in USA & Europe" missles falling over Iranians' head and with a total of more than 100,000 victims of chemical weapons from saddam(courtesy of the international community), I can reassure you that I (as well as any Iranian in the country and/or diaspora) would NOT like to see that kind of atrocity committed against any other Iranian again- PERIOD. So for that reason, the DEFENSIVE missiles are in our BEST interest & again, PERIOD. If any country has the right to DEFEND itself, I do not see any other reason for your objection, except for prejudice and racism. Let me assure you that I am not for the current Iranian regime's having a "weapons" program and it's restrically for the long range missiles program. Peace!

Thank you for waking up!!!!

It is called "common knowledge" and interestingly, it isn't off!!!! And no! it is NOT a rumor. You might wanna check with Vanunu (and other experts). Thank you!

If so why?

Hey Peter! Thanks for your offer, but we can get Vegamite here....it's hard to find but like peace and understanding it is possible. Peter my lad, we Jews and Arabs have so much in common and they have allowed us to live amongst them for many centuries much more safely than we had to live amongst other goyim.Let's give them a break, and try to think from their point of view. Shalom,Habibi!

make them. The report's last sentence states the following: "high confidence" that Iran has the scientific, technical and industrial capacity to 'eventually' produce nuclear weapons". Eventually means within this decade or by the middle of next decade. That has not changed. The program's weaponization maybe was stopped in 2003. That is the easy part of making a bomb. The tough part is making the fuel. That has not stopped by Iran's own account.

I can only hope that the one post you mentioned of mine explains to these fellows, that they in reality, have a soft underbelly. Mmmm? Did they realize at the time, possibly 60 years ago, that in allowing the American and British Oil Companies to do their research, they were allowing foreigners to figure out every nook and cranny of their territories and down below? And that that information could be used in a defensive fashion for our side, to disarm nukes? Lynn, the best part is that the information is written in plain English. I've seen some. All one need do is look. Saving the world one post at a time. Yo!

In the 1920s and even 1930s, England used chemical weapons in several nations in the Middle East. Back in the 60s, Egypt employed chemical weapons in support of a regime in the Arabian Peninsula. During the Iran-Iraq war, first Iraq, and then Iran used Chemical Weapons. The most famous "chemical atrocity" of that war involved the use by BOTH sides of chemical weapons during a battle in the Kurdish region of Iraq. No one in the region has used WMD first against anyone who possessed them. Why? Would Iraq have used chemical weapons against Iran IF Iran had them to retaliate with at the time of first use? I doubt it.

Your statement "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is of course the same that Rumsfeld used anent the presence of WMDs in Iraq. I guess he is still saying that. Demanding that Iran prove a negative, i.e., that they are not planning to build a nuclear bomb, still makes it possible to attack Iran on the spurious grounds that they might be seeking the knowledge to begin to enrich uranium to possibly lead to the acquisition of a bomb, which in itself would lead to WWIII. Ask geedubya, he can 'splain it to you.

AJ interesting you should suggest that. Fact is, Israel has historically provided the US with the best, most factual, intelligence and info on surrounding nations and their activities, especially when they contradict US interests. Fact IS, the in 67 and in 73 and more recent conflicts, it has been Israel that has provided US info in weapons performance for both S and opposing military equipment. Fact IS, it has been Israel that has saved the US 10's if not 100's of billions in R&D, maintenance and repair costs by providing US with the necessary info to correct defects in our own weapons. Fact IS, you haven't got a clue about the info/intelligence Israel shares with the US...info that is first hand, usually directly confirmed, as opposed to spysat and 2nd hand rumor/info.

If the Israeli government could act truthfully and provide honest analysis to the U.S. as the U.S. provides for Israel instead of often employing disinformation tactics, we could trust our "ally" and assist in the effort to stop Iran from proliferating. Unfortunately the Jewish State employs these obvious techniques with virtually every other nation as well and thus the international community with the exception of the naive U.S. has no interest in helping them.

Rob, the Nazis were not dogs, they were ugly little "monsters". Big difference, Rob, big difference.

How credible!

Gil, absolutely impossible to nuke Switzerland without nuking the city of Geneva. And both the Arabs and the Iranians are totally in love with Geneva. From expensive watches to beautiful women, the Arabs/Iranians would never give up this little "shopping-treasure". Thank you, Geneva. Bad luck, Gil....:)

"Open your eyes, America. The American Jewish Lobby has you by the short and curlies." I'm quite sure that you must've had relatives in Russia in the 19th century, in Germany in the 1930's, and possibly even a prideful connection to today's skinheads. Where are your relatives today........and where are we?

Peter, I fully agree with you, there is absolu- tely no "excuse" for allowing kids to run over minefields. Nevertheless I am still against a war. Once again, thanks, but "mainstream" Switzerland (Europe/world) is not interested.....

The US intellegence, all 16 agencies including the new DHS all suck and we have no idea what is going on anywhere in the world because of that fact. We went to war in Iraq to get rid of WMDs and lo and behold there were none. No person in their right mind would take anything the US says seriously including me. I place the blame squarly in Bush's lap and until he is gone and several years of intense restructuring of intellegence agencies happens I'd suggest not getting into any more multi-billion dollar and hundreds of thousands of lost lives fiascos.

why not spell it out as it is?

What ever you warmongers do the Chinese and the Russians know your game, no matter how many "unidentified" sources you claim. We know you have "friends" everywhere and are prepared for the Hasbara Dep to go to work can't wait to follow your attempts at convincing the Russians or the Chinese....good luck guys.

Hope and pray, Rob, hope and pray.... It may offer you little consolation, but chances that my beloved dog will ever start "behaving" the way he should are also somewhere between 1-5 %.... Still I keep on hoping and praying....:) Day and night.

Hey Olmert - you remind me of OJ pledging to find his wife's killer and bring him to justice. We must not let the Israelis steal another year without inexorably forcing them back behind '67 and into compliance with 242 and 194 - no more subterfuge about chasing Israeli lies about arabs -it's time to pull the log from Israel's eye

I find it quite interesting how people like you have been attempting, with some success, to attribute to Israel what the surrounding Arab countries actually DO espouse..and have espoused since before 1948. Very good! However, those people, like myself, who know the real history and situation in the region, know the truth of the matter, and the truth of the matter is virtually opposite of what you imply.

I was quite amused today to listen to John Boulton on NPR. He claimed that the reactor fuel Iran was making was 2/3 the way to making weapons grade Uranium. It was twaddle. An outright lie. Iran has enriched some Uranium to near 7%, and yes, that is 1/3 the way to the bare minimum of 20% enrichment necessary to cause fast fission. But the amount of Uranium necessary to make such a "20% enrichment" weapon would be measured in tons, the ability to assemble it rapidly enough to prevent pre-detonation is non-existent. The delivery system would have to be a ship. Yes, you can create fast fission with 20% enriched Uranium. No, it would not be a practical weapon, much less a viable missile warhead. Boulton is typical of the liars - and remember he was one of the liars about WMD who justified the conquest of Iraq, and he ORDERD subordinate State Department intelligence analysts to lie about WMD - which have invented this whole crisis.

In Israel and the USA the extreme right has had an entire generation or more where any assertion it made went unquestioned, while any contrary proposition, assertion, or question of an assertion by the right was immediately dismissed with scorn and without consideration. This has led to ever more wild assertions, ever more radical policies and ever more reckless actions. Those actions have led to disasters and those disasters have overcome the fundamental claims of the right in both nations to infallibility which were rooted in the self-induced liberal apocalypse of Vietnam and the dithering of Labor which led to the near armageddon of the Yom Kippur War. The masterminds of failure in the last few decades have been the right, and that is undeniable as the left has been without influence. Now Olmert is faced with a real problem. He actually has to PROVE that there is an Iranian nuclear weapons program and that annihilation is imminent. Let us see him prove it.

They are not members. Israel needs to stop warmongering. Sanctions need to be applied to Israel, in a heavy manner. Israeli values seem to embody racism, apartheid & jewish only pride

Ah, the pleasant whiff of murky dastardly plans gone awry! israel + its hard working lobby in full AIPAC regalia to the rescue, sending John Bolton - the man-with-zero-credibility to complain of a "coup" by US's own intelligence services...not to mention the die-hard hysterical "Bomb Iran" crowd wringing hands and crying foul on these boards! Now, that was a great Chrismas/Hannukah present indeed. For the Americans here: what this salvo-across-the-bow from the intelligence services means is that - along with the pentagon - the US MILITARY is against further ill-conceived adventurism, not to mention the rank and file state department eschelons. Despite desperate neocon remnant pleas, the planned bombing campaign now looks somewhat moribound. Certainly the previous April date for bombing will have to be put off. That leaves Israel out to lunch, munching on crumbs. Common guys - you really gonna go it alone? Anyone's been to Klaudia's diner lately? I heard the crow stew is delicious!

Maybe Israel could set an example by telling the world openly about its nuclear program and arsenal?

We are the SUV Republic.

If in 2001 Swiss banks managed 2.6 trillion US$ And you claim you Swiss are not that rich, Where is all that money coming from??? A lot of countries maybe???? What would happen if your banks were blown Dino? Think of it! Think Iran! Think nuclear! ..:)

When was the last time the military saved the United States from an elected rogue regime? Anybody remember? - is this not unprecedented? Have we ever been a banana republic before? It was Admiral Fallon and our CIA/Pentagon who have saved us from attacking Iran for Israel's Lobby and her neocons. We have stopped our warmongering neocons from forcing America to commit our next warcrime but has not Israel's domination of our Congress and Executive thru her Israel Lobby and her neocons made us nothing more than a Banana Republic?

If in 2001 Swiss banks managed 2.6 trillion US$ And you claim you Swiss are not that rich, Where is all that money coming from??? A lot of countries maybe???? What would happen if your banks were blown Dino? Think of it! Think Iran! Think nuclear! ..:)

No explanation is acceptable. Do you think this culture of sacrifice and nukes go well together?

And what has the Israeli Intelligence been doing up to now? Guessing the mood of the Abbas-zero and serving election prognoses for Kadima Israel is led by a bunch of traitors.

246Dino What would you do under 5% chance of being nuked?

Israel, and other countries (like the British) may be believe that Iran has a nuclear weapons program, but proof is lacking. What do we know for a fact? 1. The Iranians deny ever having a weapons program, and all the information provided to, and developed by, the IAEA confirms that the program Iran does admit to was civilians. 2. A stolen Iranian laptop computer showed weapons design and hundreds of other drawings which indicate a military weapons program. This was the basis for the 2005 US assessment that Iran did engage in nuclear weapons development. 3. More recently, notes of discussions by high ranking Iranian military military people were obtained, indicating that the weapons program was stopped in 2003, shortly after the toppling of Saddam. Item #3 may be a hoax by Iran in order to mislead the US. If the British think so, let them give their reasons to the US (which they probably did). US Intelligence thinks the notes are real. CONCLUSIONS: 1. Iran had a secret military program until 2003. The IAEA should continue to look into it, and uncover it on the ground (and under it). This is their main job now. 2. Even according to Olmert, it will take Iran 3 year until they have enough Uranium to make a weapon. Of course, if the IAEA will continue to supervise Natanz, the Uranium enriched there will be very far from weapons grade, (but they may build another secret facility, which will not be destroyable due to lack of info about it). 3. Since Bush is a major incompetent, and so is the Israeli leadership today, the time available is precious. Let the paranoids cry "wolf", but let Bush be paralyzed so that he does not attack Iran. Leave it to the next President.

Rob, my answer would be: 5 % Remember, the Middle Eastern skies are not "empty" at all..... And especially the sky over Lebanon....

Mark, the problem is that you are talking about roughly 25 % of the Iranian population, the vast majority of the rest has neither a problem with Afghanistan nor a (big) problem with Israel. I have travelled all over the ME, and I could not say that the "mainstream" Iranian is more extreme in his thinking than the "mainstream" Egyptian or Jordanian. And again, I will repeat it once more: I am absolutely not keen to see the Iran become a nuclear weapon power and I would support specific sanctions against the regime if that would prevent them from doing so. But I'm not willing to risk another world war in order to achieve that goal. Thanks, but no thanks.

This whole thing STINKS of a setup. Why would Bush take this one analysts report and RUN with it, stating all is safe with Iran? FORCING Israel to counter with 'accurate' Intel? Its a chess game played by Rice et al. A game to put Israel as the fault for whatever is planned to go wrong. ISRAEL AND JEWS CAN DO NO RIGHT!

"How about Islamic countries come clean, make a full statement on Islamic WMD facilities, AND open their doors to IAEA. Isn`t it time Islamic grew up, and took their place in the real world, instead of the double standard, delusional of grandure, elitist stance they now take." Iran signed the NPT remember?

Now if only Israel would start pushing the envelope again in alternative energy like they did in the 80's. Yes, Israel is still near the forefront in solar and several other technologies, but I believe Israel can push the envelope much faster. Work on alternative energy like they have on drip irrigation, hybridization of more salt tolerant food plants, an water reclamation/desalinization. I bet that, in 10 years, fully 20% of Israel's energy needs might be derived from renewable sources, like solar. ok...off my soap box now...

I could have left you a jar in Tronno recently

Go for It? Become a huge radio-active parking lot? Clandestine? Unlike Iran Israel never signed the NPT,Iran did and promptly went and did the oppositte. Its your side that threw out the partition borders and specifically refused to recognise any borders.Live with it.

A small medical research reactor is FAR from nuke proliferation. Heck, thy don't produce the kinds of fuel that can be turned into nuclear weapons. The Dimona reactor was built BEFORE US and Israel became allies. It was built in exchange for Israeli nuclear scientists assistance in French nuclear power development back in the 50's. For someone who calls themself *spyguy* I'd think you would understand the difference between the types of nuclear reactors. And yes,Dimona CAN produce the type of fuel that's can be enriched to create nuclear weapons. So could the facility that was being secretly built by Syria this summer. So can the facility that has been developed in Iran. Both countries which, I believe, are members of the IAEA.

Thank you Danny for your post, and Shavua Tov to you and to all of your family. Cipora

Maureen, Israel is not signatory to IAEA agreements. Why? Because there is absolutely no benefit to doing so for Israel. Iran is a member. Egypt is a member, etc. So what's the difference? Iran wants nuclear power. To get it, they had to become signatory to IAEA, and in doing so, follow IAEA standards, including inspections of facilities. Israel, OTOH has no reason to sign on to IAEA. Israel already has a very well developed nuclear program, fr both power and peaceful research, and, rumored military developments. BUT, Israel has had nuclear power for nearly 50 years now. That being the case, why all the accusations now? hmm???

Wars or preception of future wars change with societies, Whereas Washington has remained stuck in a cold war mindset its message to our enemies is determined by response to events of Somalia, attacks on the Marine barracks and the U.S. embassy in Beriut as well as current discussions in Washington withdrawing from Iraq. This has communited to our enemies what are political and social threhold for war realy is. Col. Hammmes (U.S. Army War College) defined this as "Fourth Generation Warfare" were all available networks are used--political, economic, social and military-- to convince the enemy's political decision makes that their stratgic goals are either unachievable or too costly for the the preceived benefit. Understanding the type of war being fought is the frist step to winning and Iran and al-qaeda have stated their preference for the direction of this Fourth-Generation War wheras Washington has not changed its tactics since the Cold war. .

214Dino Nukes can be smuggled by Shahids, and "nobody responsible". You did not reply to my question re such probability once Iran has Nukes: 50%, 10%? Any realistic conclusions have to be based on such estimates. BTW German kids in April 45, and Iranian kids in Iraqi minefields were at VERY different phases of respective wars.

Note nobody else is arguing about the estimate.

Swiss, it seems to me that you are using Western *logic* and assuming the Iranians think much the same. In reality, they do NOT. The culture is significantly different from western culture. What might make sense to you is NOT what might make sense to Iranian leaders and vice versa. There is a cultural and religious difference here that is much deeper than I think you realize. Not to say that you you aren't correct, BUT definitely do not agree with you, based on my personal experiences IN Iran. What I WILL say is that most Iranians I met seemed like very nice people, aside from their hatred of Afghanis and Israel, that is. Many aspire to a Western standard of living. But a western standard of living does not equate to a western culture/philosophy/outlook. Mark-

ROB IN AA I LOVE CIPORA BECAUSE SHE POSTS SO MUCH SENSE. GOD BLESS HER. MAY GOD ALWAYS PROTECT HER.

developing tomorrows technology like safe non polluting solar etc not yesterdays tecnology and be among the world leaders,with export potential. They have plenty of time up their sleeve for energy,fpr destroying israel they only have time till the real Iranians kick out their Arab invader dictators.

Lynn, I would say everybody but Switzerland is to blame here.... As long as you can agree with me on that, I will always be with you...:) With pleasure.

CIPORA GOD BLESS YOU AND ALL YOUR FAMILY FROM YOUR FRIEND, YOU MUST BE ONE OF THE VERY FEW THAT POST COMMON SENSE, SHAVOA TOV. DANNY.

No, Pal Brit, that's what is drummed into the hearts and minds of palestinian youth in schools and mosques...that th ey can have no greater reward than to die while killing *the Jewish enemy*. Israeli children as a general rule, however, first and foremost learn that they must all contribute in service to their communities and country, including doing service in defense OF their country. The sociological differences are completely opposite.

The Israelis are the ones who fed the US false info about WMD in Iraq. Why would anyone trust THEIR info on this? They have a clear agenda and its in their best interests to send american lives to do the dirty work.

Judah, once again I have to come up with an old (not exclusively) Swiss saying: "Dogs who are barking (usually) don't bite." This may not be the most convincing of all arguments, but fact is: If the Iranians really would have the secret longing for wiping out Israel, would they be stupid enough to announce that publicly 5 years in advance....???? If I would be Israeli, I would be much more worried if the Iranian regime would all of a sudden have started to "ensnare" Israel and the West with charming words. At least that would have made ring my (Swiss) alarm bells. I know, the Israelis may not be very keen to take that for granted, but in my judgement the unspeakable statements by the Iranian president are either just silly provocations or playing to his Iranian constituency. At least that's what my sense for logical thinking tells me.....

It is well known that it takes a genius to analyse the obvious.

"the majority elected the officials they got" What was the choice? The devil or the deep blue sea. Both candidates want the same things, more of the same. how many decades have to pass before you get a candidate that favours Universal Health Care? All the polls show it as a surefire vote winner. Ask yourself why no candidate will commit to such a policy. The answer you should get is you are living in a sham democracy,the U.States being run by Corporations who have the complicit support of both sides of Congress.Either way,Cheney(Halliburton) wins!

SANDRA WERE ARE YOUR BRAINS THINK WOMAN HOW CAN YOU MAKE DIALOG WITH MAD PEOPLE LIKE AHMINADAJAD.

Gil, I'm afraid you are reading either too many "comics" or too many rather ugly books ("the gnomes of Zürich" for example....:). We are not half as rich and powerful as you might want us to be...... Or is there a new book out there with the name "The Elders of Switzerland"....????

You're worth it Israel.

streets, why could not Iran do the same? I also find it unusual how quickly they dismantle their facilities when questioned about them. One week there, next week gone.

financial or other help to any country with weapons of mass destruction.In addition to nukes,israel also has biological&chemical weapons.It used chemical weapons in Feb.2001 in Gaza &180 civilians were hospitalised with convulsions(BBC Report).Last year a retired israeli air force officer admitted they used DIME(Dense Inert Metal)in Gaza.It tears limbs&damages internal organs.A few days ago clusters& shells with nails were used to kill Palestinians.Dec. 3.2007.2 civilian Palestinians were killed by banned flechette shells that propel metal fragments on detonation for maximum destructive effect against human targets!

Well Dutch my Dear, I think this will be the first time I will be defending the government of the US of A from your accusation of 911 being an inside job, Here are two short Movies just for you! Seams that Pallywood reporting came to Hollywood, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT7Yni4yduM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmG3z1oVdjc Enjoy But please come back!

All I can do is "congratulate" both Israel on joining the Netherlands in the play-offs (would be quite an attractive game...) and the Dutch bookmakers for getting some money from Markie B..... Happy bookmakers, happy Switzerland, not so happy Israel, not so happy Holland, not so happy Markie B....:) P.S. Markie, what would Karl Marx say to that rather "decadent" spending of money....??? :)

Well Dutch my Dear, I think this will be the first time I will be defending the government of the US of A from your accusation of 911 being an inside job, Here are two short Movies just for you! Seams that Pallywood reporting came to Hollywood, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT7Yni4yduM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmG3z1oVdjc Enjoy But please come back!

If I am an irrational racist when it comes to Iran, then so are 3/4 of the Iranian population.

Rob, please don't get me wrong, I'm not longing for an Iranian nuclear weapon.... As I stated in my post to Cipora, I would very much prefer if the Iran would not get nukes, but definitely not for the price of WW3. For such a sacrifice the probability that Iran would ever use nuclear weapons in a war of aggression is simply (far) too slim. With regard to your other points: As we all know, Hezbollah is Irans proxy in the region, so why should the Iranians hand them out nukes, if they could do the attack them- selves...??? Doesn't make sense to me. Apart from the fact that it's highly improbable that they could ever be brought to Lebanon without prior knowledge of Israel or the West. UBL is "sunni", the Iranians are "shias", and as we can see in Iraq, they both don't like each other very much (to put it mildly). And I guess it's fair to say that there was no winner in the Irak/Iran war, in the end it was pretty much a draw.

the fires of war. Which is exactly what they do to be able to say how innocent they are. Lebanon and the Sudan are prime examples of that.

It is not the theory that is so difficult to master, but the actual execution, the various technologies. The Soviets did not spy on America for theoretical knowledge, but for the technics involved. Their most valuable spy, the one who gave them the most information, was recently decorated posthumously by Putin.

the majority elected the officials they got. Funny thing is, now everyone denies voting for them. Quit whining, you got exactly what was voted for.

dimunitive minds on this forum actually comprehend that which you write though.

204Spyguy If it is so easy why did US have to give it to India, as you claim?

You are absolutely right that everyone who runs the US government from the White House on down through the Congress are absolutely in breach of their constitutional obligation to uphold US laws. But law means nothing to many in the US government especially when it comes to enforcing laws that might offend their closest ally, Israel, and their amen corner in the US. Unfortunately, the US has long been operating under a double standard. I could go into a discussion of the decades of US duplicity, law breaking and hypocrisy but there isn't enough room in this comment section.

Blair can produce document proving that Israel is only 45 minutes away from total destruction by thousands of Iranian WMDs and missiles. The data will be based of course on lies leaked in London by mo55ad agents. We must not allow truth to interfere with military requirements.

Yeah, I would say they are ! Ever heard of the wahabi, islamic fundamentalist concept of jihad & homicide(suicide) bombings & iranian payments to families of homicide bombers ? Nuclear weapons in the hands of people like the soviet communists is bad enough, BUT nuclear weapons in the hands of people arming, paying for & training homicide bombers.....unspeakable !

So you don`t think it is an important question whether the Iranians are trying to build nuclear weapons, but you are much more interested into the question whether it would make any sense for the Iranians to use the bomb! Well Swiss (Dino) Until you get your answer if it is wise putting nuclear arms in the hands of people who believe that when they die they automatically get 70 virgins into heaven, Some alarming news for you! If I were an aspiring country for world domination, the first country I would attack with my nuclear weapons would be Switzerland, yes Switzerland, think of it all that money in the Swiss banks could crumble the western world!

have a nuclear weapon? Just because he hasn't used it yet, he could still have one. As for the US giving nuclear technology and material to Israel and India, it has been well documented, especially the recent India agreements (Google is your friend). The reality is the US is just as guilty of nuclear proliferation as every other nuclear capable country, they are just bigger hypocrites about it. As I have noted in other postings, I fully expect that when a US city is nuked it will be with nukes purchased from the Russian Mafia. As to who will make the purchase, that is anyone's guess given the huge number of people that the US has pissed off in the last 25 years. It could even be the Israelis trying to get the US to nuke the ME so Israel can have all the land.

Just like Israel, eh Peter? Olmert made a slip, and started to expose Israel's nuclear stash. How about the Israeli Knesset come clean, make a full statement on Israel's nuclear facilities, AND open their doors to IAEA. Isn't it time Israel grew up, and took her place in the real world, instead of the double standard, delusional of grandure, elitist stance she now takes?

to die for their country. We teach them to FIGHT for their country and make the enemey die for his.

DRm Sorry, I forgot you were in the US in which case all my original claims and those in the The Boston Tea Party film remain the same too. ( http://www.boston911truth.org/teaparty/ ) It's too bad you see the Bush camp as being honest. That's a label I don't think anyone would attach to him and Cheney today--esp. the way they have manipulated 9/11. Dutch Dutch

190Dino Iran was already winning when 50000 kids exploded in Iraqi mine field.

Israel. You will need to go through the surveys that were completed by the oil companies of the different rock formations, minerals, and oil deposits in Iran. These reports should also list the types of strata. These reports exist for Kuwait and all oil producing nations. They were most likely produced at least 50 to 60 years ago. Look for the types of strata that would support a deep infrastructure and loads of tunnels. You will also need to employ geologists with the proper credentials to analyze the data. I am not one. Just very resourceful. Do not communicate with me except through this forum. I am transparent and intend to remain that way. I will not respond to any emails or communicate with any agents of foreign governments outside of this forum. That's the truth and no amount of money can buy me. I do this out of love for the Jewish People, the victims of the Holocaust, and my ancestors. I also believe it's in the best interests of America, the West, and the entire world. Yo!

The Zionist emperor has no clothes due to the "Perfect Storm' of conditions to expose their BS. The Iraq War, 9-11, US debt up the ying-yang to China; AIPAC trial, Carter's book, Finkelstein's book and a host of articles, books, lectures, and whatnot where truthful Jews and others are telling it like it is and distancing themselves from tribalism and voting for justice. Yes, the new intelligence report is just a final nail in that coffin of lies after US withdrew peace res due to Zioist pressure. Let em float their own sinking ship. Great post. Regards.

Nothing sinister there. Simply a typo so don't read anything into it. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

It would help the discussion immensely if people posting on this site knew a little about nuclear power and nuclear weapons. A couple of hours google research would be a great start. One should know what treaties are in effect and who the signatories are as well as what is allowed and prohibited. What kind and purity of nuclear fuel is used in reactors and bombs. What enrichment is and how it is accomplished. What the whole nuclear power cycle is and where the problem areas are. What the relative percentage of isotopes of uranium are at various stages and the uses and care of each. When the Iranian nuclear power project was started and by whom. When the Israeli project was started and by whom. Where and how Israel obtained the knowledge, equiprment and fissile material for its nuclear weapons project. More facts and less hot air and fuming could make this discussion much more useful and enlightening to all.

The only reason we want to neuter Iran is because we are so freaking dependent on oil and all its derivatives. Yes, American and Israeli companies profit from Iranian oil, and American and Israeli companies want us to stay addicted to it. It's not all Iran's fault. We are all indirectly funding their nuclear program. We are!! However, Iran, Chaves, Iraq, the Saudi clowns would all be totally irrelevant if we could JUST GO GREEN and finally develop innovative non-polluting fuel sources. Detroit, Tokyo wake up!!! We hate oil!! Americans are going broke paying for Iran's nuclear program and we are sick of it! Help!!!!

179Dino Would Hezbollah use Nuke? Would Iran give it to them? Now You can mull over the probability. Is it 50%? 30%? 10%? Israel has to mull over the same question.

Say Paul, you know how the world really works. You have your arse parked in Belfast, not your beloved Zion. You caught El-Al using your dual citizenship passport and hauled arse. You know how the world works and that is that the zionist gig is up, ole buddy, over and done with and the world has its eye on you. Have coffee. Regards.

"The NIE report was compiled by sixteen agencies, and they all agree that Iran had a nuclear weapons program. The secret nature of the Iranian nuclear program, carried out for twenty years until finally discovered, as well as the designs provided by the Kahn network, clearly point to an effort on the part of Iran to develop a nuclear weapon capability. Had Iran only wanted to enrich uranium for peaceful purposes, it could have had help from the IAEA, as is prescribed under the NTP. Iran, however, chose the secret, nuclear weapon route" Unlike Israel which has carried out it's nuclear weapons program in the open Until Iran kicked out the US via the Shah of Iran, it's puppet, the US supported and was providing a nuclear program in Iraq.

186Spyguy If it's so easy why doesn?t Bin Laden have it? And why did US have to "give it" to India and Israel? (A ridiculous claim on its own).

Mark, while it's quite hard to deny a certain form of "indoctrination" for their "cause" when it comes to the education of Palestinian kids, I am really not so sure whether that was the case in the Iran/Iraq war. It is very difficult for us guys from the West to get into the spiritual mind of people living in different cultures. I personally don't believe that in the desperate situation the Iranians were for quite a while during the war with Iraq, it was necessary to push those kids into doing this terrible "job". For example, I also don't think that the German kids who "defended" Berlin in the last days of the "third Reich", did what they did because they were indoctrinated by the Nazis (no doubt, they certainly were...). But they simply felt at that special point of time that it was worth it to sacrifice their life, even if it was for a totally lost cause (the "Fuehrer").... Who knows, maybe the truth is (as often) some- where in the middle.

The issue here is not Iran. This is the start of a Coup d'etat against Neocons and Zionists by patriotic American citizens. The destruction of the tapes is the second issue. The next step will be to expose all those who are behind 9/11. Americans are fed up of war. They have gone bankrupt and losers in every way. They are scrambling now to save their country from further deterioration. U.S. Zionists including Israel are working very hard to direct them back in the wrong direction but for sure they will fail.

144Toronto's For the 50000 exploding kids there was no Tooth Fairy. Unfortunately.

Because what my senses are telling me is that if there is anything, it is hidden very deep in the Earth. Tunnels. Some of them only ten feet in diameter. People there. Something going on. Perhaps a kilometer below.

All the nuclear knowledge anyone needs to build a very usable nuclear weapon is available on the web and it is nicely cataloged by Google. Virtually all the information I learned in my nuclear thermodynamics classes is now on the web. As for material, per the Nuclear Threat Initiative (nti.org) the world is awash in easily obtainable nuclear material - all it takes is lots of cash, some research and a little luck and you have the stuffings for a bomb. As for Iran giving nukes away like door prizes at a festival, that has already been done by the US (to India and Israel), Pakistan (to Libya and many others), Russia (Cuba), etc. There is no need for Iran to share any knowledge or material since so many others are already doing it. So what other patently false charge do you want to make up about Iran? Why not just admit you are an irrational racist when it comes too Iran?

143Dino: Who brainwashed the 50000 children of the Key (to paradise)? The minefield was inside Iraqi territory. Yes, Iraq was the original aggressor; However, Iran considers the mere presence of Israel in the ME to be an act of aggression, thus supporting Hezbollah (which did start a war). Admitted, the Shahs did not start a war, so what? Had they taken US embassy hostages under a different US president would have started a war. Bottom Line: can you trust Jihadists with MAD? How about nukes for Bin Laden?

Ahmadinejad quotes are slightly different to your quotes, and here are just some:I think it is quite clear what he means slightly different from you puny incorrect quote. As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map,? There is no doubt that the new wave (of attacks) in Palestine will wipe off this stigma (Israel) from the face of the Islamic world, The World without Zionism.? Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury,? The fighting in Palestine is a war between the (whole) Islamic nation and the world of arrogance, ... Today, Palestinians are representing the Islamic nation against arrogance

What Israel, her Israel Lobby, and her neocons desire is to successfully manipulate America to permit and support Israel's illegal occupation of Palestine (which takes care of her internal enemies, the Palestinians) while manipulating America to illegally attack any nation Israel and her Israel Lobby sends us to attack (which takes care of her external enemies). So far this has worked successfully to the extent that the Israelis have for decade after decade continued to occupy the Palestinian territories and they have had America attack Iraq for them and will have us attacking Iran for them in the next few months - thus taking care of two of Israel's biggest external enemies for her

they should rename these talkbacks the land of wishful thinking ! intriguing to see an idiot who has no idea how the world really works !

I will not watch the Dutch games as long as Marco van Basten is coach, as I have done with the last 7 games. But I will put some money on Israel beating the Swiss at my corner tabacco store.

You do know, don't you, Chuck, that John Bolton is a complete nutter? Did you read the details of his failed confirmation hearings? Did you read about the night that he chased some poor female underling back to her hotel room after she had offended him in some way, and pounded on her door, screaming threats and insults at her until being led away by the hotel management?

Lynn, honestly, I am not sure whether you really got my "point"..... My "point" was that (at least for me) it's not such an important question whether the Iranians are trying to build nuclear weapons or whether they don't. Because in the end for us "regular" citizens it is very hard to get a clear picture on what's really going on in Iran. Therefore I'm much more interested into the question whether it would make any sense for the Iranians to use the bomb in an attack against Israel or any other nation, or whether there are any links between Iran and Al Kaida (proliferation) And there I still have to find a rational argument which would support either the thesis of a link Iran/Al Kaida or a possible (suicidal) Iranian attack on Israel or the U.S.

Mr Khon ...You are right .But you will be more right once you try to know the facts behind the killings of those Muslims. Who were putting Oil on Fire In Algeria and for whose interest.It is France and they are not Muslims. In Iraq those were killed only after the invasion of USA.And Saddam may killed his political rivals as Stalin , Hitler did.But about killings of Saddam were always exaggerated as like the discovery of WMD.So please go more deeply and I hope next time you will be more logic to write anything like that.

"When will Israel come clean with the international community and admit what everyone in the world already knows? The problem is if they do, the US will have to cut off all aid because our laws forbid aid to any country hiding its nuclear weapons systems." I didn't know that. Since the US Defence Secretary, Gates, has already told the world that Israel has clandestine nukes, and presumably the boneheaded Bush is fully aware of their stash, aren't they both in breach of their constitutional obligation to uphold US laws by not immediately cutting off aid to Israel?

Isn't that what is drummed into the ears of Israeli children? Bet it is....

I don't rewrite history however your Zionist officials have been trying to recreation ancient Israel and claim as their own for some time. Not even Herzl made such an outlandish claim and rightly so as ancient Israel was home to many groups who never controlled it for any great length of time as I understand. In addition, Israeli officials have gone out off their way to portray Israelis living in a sea of hostile enemies. Well, I imagine if Israelis kept their appetite for Palestinian land under control they would have few if any enemies. As Churchill said it's no secret, people will treat you as you treat them. Then there is the so call "facts on the ground" which the Palestinians are suppose to accept as natural growth. Well, I can imagine they have trouble with that too. I wouldn't recommend building a future on such facts Lastly, there's the manipulation of media message in Israel & the US and that brings me to 9/11 and Israel's impediament to the truth. http://www.bollyn.com/index/?id=10568

Markie, I absolutely agree with you, from their (strategic) point of view, the Iranians have at least as many "good" reasons to strive for nuclear weapons as the Netherlands do.... You guys already had your "nuclear bombs" in form of the fantastic Johan Cruyffs, Neeskens, Gullits, Van Bastens + Co..... Good old times, Markie, I definitely wish you good luck when it comes to the play-offs for South-Africa 2010... I'm afraid (or rather "I rejoice"...) my beloved Scottish bravehearts will "easily" leave you behind in your group....:)

.. but it wont be any "islamistic forces" but cruel natural disasters forcing israel to her knees. The time range varies but one thing is for sure: we all are going to whitness israels downfall and destruction. In essence it obviously was a mistake to create a western style entity in a middle-eastern area. Zionism is just another ideology to fail, just like the communism did.

"You better familiarize yourself with The 12th Imam belief." Rob while you're at it don't forget to familiarise yourself with the concept of rapture, prevalent across large swathes of the US, now believed to have permeated the mind of a certain inbred in the White House.

If You`re as bright as You think You are, You`d know that the best(most mature & sane) way to handle misery & danger is to be able to joke about it, while preparing for a worst case scenario ! But don`t worry, the truth will come out about all this, faster than You expect..... Intelligent people learn from experience & histoty, why don`t You try that for a change ? Karl Marx(yeah, he was jewish) once said ; "A people which don`t cherish & learn from their history is doomed to go under & disappear". -We jews will still be here in another 5766 years or more from now, You can take that to the bank !

that America will attack Iran on behalf of Israel. Now it seems that you believe it may have been for self-serving reasons and really for oil all along? If you are confused, please let me know. I am here to help and unconfuse you. Don't be shy, just ask.

Hey Chuck, I bet you also believed that Iraq had yellow cake and lots of WMDs and bio weapons that they planned to use against us. I bet you fell hook, line and sinker for the same line that the neo-con John Bolton and his boss, GW Bush, are pushing now. What we were told by the DC warmongers turned out to be a massive lie that has taken the lives of at least 4000 American troops and perhaps a million Iraqis. The loss of these lives is meaningless to those in Washington who want to build and control the American empire. How many more lives do you wish to be lost?

"Got a link for me?" http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/nov2007/db20071115_045316.htm I could be wrong, but I think there was an even more recent story that said that new reserves had already been found to add to these colossal amounts.

When will Israel expose the fact that not only does it have a nuclear program, much more advanced than any that Iran might have, but possesses at the minimum at least 200 nuclear weapons? When will Israel come clean with the international community and admit what everyone in the world already knows? The problem is if they do, the US will have to cut off all aid because our laws forbid aid to any country hiding its nuclear weapons systems. What the world needs is not only a nuclear free Middle East but a nuclear free world. Too much is at stake. Final question. Will Haaretz censor this? I wonder.

"and willing to "share" that knowledge with every third world dictator." Israel provided expertise and technology that was central to the apartheid regime of South Africa's development of its nuclear bombs.

Interesting perspective, Colin, but I ten to have a different perspective, based on personal experiences in oh, say, Egypt, and Iran. I can tell you right now that if anything, Israel is not paranoid enough, because Egypt wants nothing more than to see the destruction of Israel....regardless of the supposed *peace* treaty between the two countries. Iran has a similar desire. So, I suggest you keep that in mind before declaring Israel to be too paranoid, or to be creating paranoia. Jordan is the ONLY cuntry in the ME that has anything close to a true peace with Israel, and, strange though it may be, Jordan is 2/3 Palestinian Arab, AND ordan is over 2/3 of what has historically been considered to be Palestine. Go figure! Mark-

Swiss, I can tell you that the Iranian govt, from onset of school, educated the children to WANT to go to fight and possibly die for Iran, once the war started. This inculcation is quite similar to what the PA teaches children in schools on WB and in Gaza...that they should die for the cause. That is the most honorable way to die, etc...It is drummed into children from the onset of school in both PA governed schools and in Iran. Mark-

Keep up with the US opinion. US voters want truth. The fact that liars in the administration are being outed is troubling to the US voters and since 16 agencies say Iran has no program, US voters (and Congressman) are now looking at who is behind this clarion call to bomb Iran. Who is it? Zionist Jews. Well, the agencies came out on their own to prevent Dubya from whipping up another BS war. This time Israel will need to use her own money and men and accept the consequences. That report gravely maimed US credibility around the world and in the US. Have tea. That is justice at work. Peace for everybody. It is now becoming increasingly clear Zionists don't want peace, never did, never will, except if all the Pals are removed. No deal. Regards.

Vast Brazilian oil finds? That's another blessing and problem for the US, is it not, with Brazil coming up already as an (energy) power even without oil reserves but with sugar-gas. Got a link for me?

Despite your 5th column Zionist perch in Canada, US public opinion will not forget what they heard the report said; even Congress is upset at the almost war. Why don't you lobby Canada, where you say you are plopped, to bomb Iran? Nope, US voters are all done with the BS after Carter and Finkelstein's book plus the AIPAC trial all topped off by the same nutty Neocons we remember from Iraq feverishly crying 'wolf' yet again. Nope, polls or no, the US won't be bombing Iran. You head home, join up and then you guys bomb em; put YOUR money where your mouth is for a change. Regards.

And let's not forget, along with gas reserves, Iran is in a good place to develop/research solar power. Coupling solar power with some kinds of agriculture might go hand in hand towards making the desert bloom and making Iran more prosperous, AND it's far less toxic to the environment. Of course, the one country in the region that could help most in all this is ...you guessed it...Israel. To bad...so sad for the region and the various regimes' idiocy.

Karl Popper started out somewhat left in his political orientation but moved away from earlier positions as time went by. Popper dedicated his book,( The Poverty of Historicism (1957) to "the memory of the countless men and women of all creeds or nations or races who fell victims to the fascist and communist belief in Inexorable Laws of Historical Destiny." Popper is properly regarded as one of the great 20th C thinkers. I’m not clear on exactly which aspects of Marx any Mullah would have use of. Are you sure of your sources?

America first!

Please, do tell.. what war has the US fought on behalf of Israel?? Please do tell. Fa as I know, there have been no wars fought by the US for Israel. If you think either of the Iraq wars was for Israel, you better think again, quick. 1st war was fought for Kuwait. 2nd war was started for American big oil interests. period.

"The American report... is the last thing that will allay Israel's fears," said Yishai, at the outset of the weekly cabinet meeting. "The Iranian threat is real, and Iran's intentions will never change. We must not allow ourselves to lower our level of alertness." If there was no siege, the members of the embattled garrison would realize that they actually have rather little in common with each other. Therefore, there has to be a siege. For Israel, the prime imperative is that there be enemies. That they be real is secondary.

Right you are and Israel can float her own boat, send her soldiers and sniff it up when Iran, a country who has not attacked anybody in 2500 years, sends warmongers their due. There will be no 'coalitions' this time around ole buddy. Zionists will just have to take her lumps which all bullies deserve. Finally, the US is stepping off as more and more about Zionist actions are revealed to the world thru Jewish and non Jewish authors. Regards.

.. if Iran is trying to get a nuke or not. What does matter is that Iran has the (mis-)fortune of controlling the OIL supply going out of the persian gulf, and that they dare to oppose the US and their allies. The US is trying to secure their control over their and the whole world's supply of oil and will anihilate any opponent to their aspirations as it did in Iraq, where they were "suspecting" weappons of mass destruction. Any reason or any significant or suspected aspirations of others is too much, even the knowlegde alone is reason enough to start hitting the drums of war. Therefore it doesn't really matter IF Iran is developping nukes or not, the US will try anyhow to smash them and bomb them into stone age.

Relax, have tea, the US is not gonna bomb Iran for Israel, nor is any other sane country. If you guys wanna wade in the water and bomb Iran, well, okay, but nobody is gonna whine about the well deserved response you get from yet another episode of unadulterated Zionist warmongering against your neighbors. Nope, the US Intelligence agencies (16 of em) prevented another catastrophe like Iraq. Forget it, your war drum has a hole in it. Chalk it up to justice at work. Regards.

Lack of evidence, energy need, intelligence reports, it just doesn't matter. There is a irrational fear and hatred for Iran, from Americans propably for 1979, from Israeli's propably for Hizbulah, otherwise I cannot explain it. Iran just has not the same rights as other nations have in the minds of these people, that is the bottom line. That Iran has many rational reasons like security and energy reasons to obtain both bomb and nuclear energy is simply overlooked and ignored.

Did you see the story about those truly vast new reserves of oil that have been found offshore in Brazil? Perhaps this is the reason America decided that Iran didn't have to be attacked, after all.

After the US apparent flip flop NIE report on Iran, the world doesn't care about this issue anymore. Olmert says Israel will expose. The world doesn't care about it anymore. Russia and china are blocking. Stop crying like a baby. israel should do what it has to do to protect itself.By the way, tell Ramon to shut up. No one is interested in the crybaby you put out to advance your views. In fact, few israelis appreciate your efforts. No israeli will forget that you hurt israel's spirit when you said israel is finised without concessions and a palestinian state. Give back everything and hope for the best and cry to the US, that is what you have saying. The jewish diaspra is sick of you. Resign for the good of the country.Take your cabinet and resign. It may even be that you are correct about the end result.An israeli leader should always love and speak positively about the state. You hate your own state.

"We are skeptical about the report's findings," an unidentified senior British official was quoted as saying... And as shown by the Iraq Weapons of Mass Destruction debacle, the Brits are such wonderful experts. Maybe they get their information from the Afghan Opium pipe? Why else should they look forward to getting into another, even bigger war?

A travesty to see sucha n influential minority , inflaming worl wars to satisfy they war mongering attitude to to be able to live in peace. Enough you need to back off jews,I can your fate in being daily by your stupid attitude.

doomsday scenarios and the demise of a country. The fact is that Iran will not attack Israel (they have no reason to do so), Israel will not attack Iran, the Arabs will not attack Israel. The conflict will remain low intensity for years to come with terrorism and retaliations for terrorism. I understand how comforting it is for some to believe/hope that Israel will cease to exist. We Israelis made sure that your craving for the extermination of Israel are limited to wishes and entreaties. Oh...and to also vent/express them on this Zionist forum. Ta Ta for now, until my next post.

John Bolton has less credibility than anyone who ever served in the US administration, except Cheney. He is held in such low esteem that he could not even get a Repub Congress to approve him for the UN. Despite evidence to the contrary, he is still running around beating the Zionist war drum and being ignored by all sane folks. He should be caught with a net. He is scary and nuts. So, read his stuff and believe it once again, after Iraq, but thank goodness everybody else knows John Bolton for what he is, a loose cannon. Regards.

There was so much anti-Iran propagande during the Iraq/Iran war in the US press that a visitor from Mars would have thought that Iran had started the war. The truth being that the US was solidaly backing Iraq's war of aggression. Put that nugget under your pillow tonight.

Rob, with all due respect, but I'm afraid you got something slightly wrong here. Ahmadinejad is guilty of a lot of things, but you can hardly blame him for the poor Iranian kids killed in the mine fields. Because they were not pressured in any way to do that terrible "job", they (and their parents) were extremely proud to bring that sacrifice for the sake of their country. I assume the Iranian army could have easily recruited double the amount of kids. As you mentioned in your post that is exactly part of the Shia "spirit of sacrifice" culture. The big difference to the nuclear question: The kids sacrifice in the mine fields was an act of defense (against the attacker Iraq). An Iranian nuclear attack on Israel would be exactly the opposite. And you can blame Iran for a lot of things, but you can hardly blame them for having started a lot of wars over the past decades (century).

Israel set to expose Israels nuclear program

but, please explain why Iran needs a heavy water reactor? That is only necessary if one is making weapons.

olmert can't even tell the truth and isn't a good liar

sobering effect on you, good G-d let alone indrajaya.

Americans aren't as dumb as you think. We're not fooled by your lies. The US WILL NOT attack Iran on your behalf. Got it? Fool me once....

42Dino 50000 Iranian Children of the Keys sent by Ahmad to die in Iraqi minefields as martyrs. Not even Stalin would have thought of such an idea. You better familiarize yourself with The 12th Imam belief.

and willing to "share" that knowledge with every third world dictator.

Reservoir pressures are dropping. New reserves are not being found. All the easy oil has been found and the exploration has moved into very deep waters. Consumption is soaring world wide. There is a simple equation that must be met and that is that Production = Consumption. Do you use cheap locally produced Uranium to run your air conditioner so you can sell your expensive oil and gas? Or are you a total idiot who would rather burn up your only exports? This is a situation facing all of the Gulf's oil producing nations. Iran is not the only one with a nuclear power program underway. The psycho right can't comprehend and the liberals don't like it. Too bad. Energy makes the world go round and 'renewable' sources are not reliable enough for base load purposes.

One cannot ignore what appears to show the US intelligence agencies as shockingly unable to gather serious intelligence on Iran. The apparent stopping by Iran of it's nuclear weapons program in 2003 appears to be something that Iran did but not from any pressure applied to Iran by the US, EU or anyone else. In 2003 there was no drive against Iran that caused it to halt it's program. What did happen in 2003 is that the US invaded Iraq and it was this action that drove Iran to think that it should temporarily halt it's program. A tit-bit of info on the stopping of a program in 2003 cannot be the defining piece of info about what has happened over the past 3 years. What is happening is that ineffectual intelligence agencies in the US are siding on the side of caution precisely because they are unable to gather serious intel and in the process they are endangering Israel which will backfire one day, rest assured.

Pathetic!!! That's the only word to describe people like Dutch. As New Yorkers saw two planes fly inot the WTC after being hijacked by Muslim terrorists, Dutch tries to make believe the whole thing was staged by our government. Does it get any worse than this? NO! We see this all too many ytimes...Muslims trying to rewrite history as to make their people lok like the victims instead of the vile terrorists which kill more human beings than any other culture. It won't work Dutch! We all have brains and actually use them to think independently. unlike your kind who buy into bullshit spewed by your imams.

"Samson option is a last resort" The "Samson Option" is an Israeli fantasy- a bit of Zionist fluff and harrumphing. If the use of Israel nukes is GUARANTEED to lead to the incineration of at least 1 million Jews and the total destruction of Israeli society and infrastructure, it's no option at all. Defeat in conventional war will simply lead to Israel suing for peace on the best terms they can get.

whether they are acquiring nuclear weapons or not and how to deal with it, if at all, if Iran is indeed acquiring the weapons. Israel can not, will not and must not depend on third rate intelligence agencies to decide its fate.

... followed immediately by Israeli retaliatory strikes against Lewes, Brighton, and Chichester? Or are you holed up in Bethnal Green with George Galloway?

Al-Jazeera reports the UK refuses to give up cluster bombs. I believe them. As for the warmongering media of the US, nothing could be further from the truth. Do not expect the US public to get cozy with Iran any time soon. They won't.

is allowed to enrich uranium!Secondly,Iran is a sovereign country and has the right to develop nukes if they so chose.I personally believe that Iran should develop nukes.This will end the cabal's domiance of the ME.

"I would give my life to meet you face to face on a battlefield." I presume you would be in a top-of-the-range Israeli tank, supported by IAF attack helicopters and warplanes, and I would be fighting like the Palestinians, with little more than a semi-automatic?

the rest of us are not quite as naive as to Iran's intent.

Do you believe that Persia and Israel have a traditional alliance that precludes them from wiping each other off the face of the earth. Is Madman's rhetoric just that, rhetoric? Who are the people in Israel and Lebanon responsible for the second Lebanon War, who are the racist warmongers that broke this Persia-Jew alliance and taboo if you think it really exists. Was the war a miscalculation or does it signal a serious transformation going on in Israel that led to its getting into an unnecessary war. The second Lebanon war still makes no sense to me, war between Lebanon and Israel is almost a civil war itself between brother and brother. Hysteria, paranoia, McCarthyism, Red Scare, Iran Scare, have you seen any unidentified flying objects today?

"Israel is aware, & awake !" What's this supposed to mean, Judah? If Israel wants to declare war on Iran, let it do so, but don't ask for anyone else's help. And when you've dropped your bombs, don't come whining and bleating to the rest of the world when you are made to pay a horrific price. Do you imagine the Iranians have prepared for that day, down to the last detail?

Ovadiah, in view of the history of the Jewish people I totally understand that you have a different perception of the Iranian (nuclear) threat. However, if I try to see things in a bit more "sober" way, I must say that I just can't see a scenario where Iran would attack Israel with nuclear weapons. There simply would be nothing to gain but every- thing to lose for the Iranian Ayatollahs by taking such a crazy step. So again, especially after Ahmadinejads remarks of the past, your fear is an understandable one, but it is not a very "realistic" one.

"And don`t give me this "no evidence" nonsense. Their is plenty of evidence" If 16 US intelligence agencies couldn't find it, where is it, Nasib, other than in the minds of Zionists like you, anxious for Iran to be attacked by America.

"Talk to El Baradei and the UN (two rounds of santions)." All the result of extreme US pressure and, in the light of the assessment of 16 US intelligence agencies, totally unwarranted and illegal.

"Israel will continue to work alongside the International Atomic Energy Association in order to uncover covert Iranian activities and investigating its military program to develop nuclear weapons, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said on Sunday." Why should the IAEA be the smallest bit interested in what a country known to have nuclear weapons, cladestinely obtained, has to say? Let Israel join the international nuclear community, sign up to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, and have the IAEA inspectors crawl all over its facilities, including Dimona, then we might be interested in what these cheeky b****rds have to say. Otherwise, "Sex and Travel" to the Israelis.

Peter SM. I realize you probably never took Economics 101, or flunked it, but here is what you are missing. Iran has little to sell the world except oil and natural gas. Iran has uranium deposits and nuclear power can meet some of their energy needs while freeing the oil and natural gas for export. The US has oil, gas, and coal, why do we have nuclear power plants? Think Peter, very hard, about the future. If you can't grasp the fact that in the modern world nations need to have exports in order to import things, and that if the consume their own export product then. . . p.s. Peter, current estimates are that growth in consumption of oil and gas in producing nations will soon start to reduce the output for export. p.p.s. Iran is not the only oil producer to be turning to nuclear power. We are even considering new reactors here in the US.

Rob, the intelligence agencies have to leaved the door open to defuse criticism that in the period 2001-2007 that they were not cooking the books on Iran the way they cooked them on Iraq. By claiming there was a bomb program until 2003 they have covered their ass. What doesn't fly is why their supposedly sound sources failed to inform them for four years after the alleged program was terminated that it had been. The IAEA received solid information and accounting for materials which indicated that there was not even a nuclear weapons program during the late period of the Iraq-Iran War (which I had tended to believe myself). The intelligence agencies do not want to be left holding the bag if the Bushiz start another war. They saw how "Slam Dunk" Tenant was framed by the Bushiz and they are not going to be the fall guys again. The Cheney wing of the junta still wants a war with Iran and there are lots of other people in the intelligence agencies and armed forces who don't.

It's not America's problem.

It is fine, that you remind me of 9/11, I never heard of this. Is it this event, that was repeated on my television screen a trillion times? I must have missed it somehow. It is fine, that you focus your sharp mind on the obvious and on the bad behaviour of others. But I like Woody Allen too :) And just because you have 6 million and more reasons to feel paranoid - It doesn't change the fact, that paranoia remains the biggest threat and the biggest obstacle for your people to live in peace with your neighbours. Maybe it is about finding a balance?

Your knowledge of military both tactical and strategic moves is very lacking. There are numerous scenarios which will prevent Iran from even thinking about an attack. Nukes are deterrents....trust me on this, because anyone that attacks the US or Israel with nukes will bring on the end of the world as we know it....and that includes you, unless you wish to go back to your cave-dwelling ways. I also know that should Dimona or oil refineries be attacked, the perpertrators will know a new definition of HELL. Why waste your time wishing the demise of Israel when there are more positive areas in which to improve your own life.

Indrajaya, What the neocons have done in the name of 9/11 and in the interests of the Zionists in Israel is both sinfuul & criminal. Now people are outraged on how they almost took the US into another war except the National Intelligence agency thwarted their efforts. They want accountability and are talking about holding Tom Friedman of the NYT and Wiiliam Kristol of the Weekly Standard accountable and Fox News & other networks accountable for their cheereading efforts. I opposed Bush's assault on Iraq from the start and when US foreces went into Iraq there was a national split of 50/50. That was no accident Plus I have spoken out against their God damn Islamofacism stuff at every opportunity and reminded them it was their support for imperial-ist values and Zionism that were fueling the fires. I am terrible sorry about what this evil war has done to the Iraq people and Muslims I am attending a Boston Tea Party event to condemn it. I appreciate your sobering truth daily http://www.boston911truth.org/teaparty/