PM: Israel ready to cede some security control in W. Bank to PA

I think your idea of do nothing and let the arabs defeat them is even more idiotic. the likely result bearing in mind arab promises is another genocide duncan

I think Axel`s right on this. The surrounding Arab countries would come to the Saudis aid by falling on Israel, and that would be that? .... It is very valid point BUT Israel has a qualitative edge in weaponry and can be expected to defeat them. duncan duncan

Repetitions won't make it less idiotic ... and citing the UN charter is just one more proof.

Actually, Duncan, Axel makes a good point, one which neither of us, in our discussion, thought of: "If Israel has no US support and aid, the last thing they could afford would be a war of aggression" I think Axel's right on this. The surrounding Arab countries would come to the Saudis aid by falling on Israel, and that would be that?

IF Israel has no US support and aid, the last thing they could afford would be a war of aggression. Excuse me, but your projects are plain idiotic. .... what would be idiotic is letting the arabs defeat them without a struggle, which they would do if Israel lost its qualitative edge. As saudi ooil is used to fund terror against Israel, it would not be aggression , but self defence for Israel to confiscate the oil and according to Un charter all nations have the right to self defence. duncan

"I was not advocating for israel to take saudi oil NOW. only in a future theoretical situation when it loses us support and has no us aid." IF Israel has no US support and aid, the last thing they could afford would be a war of aggression. Excuse me, but your projects are plain idiotic.

(A)someone insists on it as a REALISTIC option, it`s time to call it by it`s name: utter nonsense. ... I was not advocating for israel to take saudi oil NOW. only in a future theoretical situation when it loses us support and has no us aid. As Israel depends upon its survival for its qualitative edge against its arab enemies, the saudi option is one which Israel will have to consider. surely you are not advocating that israel should go under without a struggle. ? and what you say about REALISTIC to quote ben gurion "In Israel, in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles?. which other country in the world with its people scattered to the 4 corners of the Earth hs regained its independence after 2,000 years. Answer zero. it is not REALISTIC to suppose otherwise. duncan

I suggest to drop the topic. It was an amusing piece of fiction for a while, but as soon as someone insists on it as a REALISTIC option, it's time to call it by it's name: utter nonsense.

. Even if it did, what about what you said, that Israel is outnumbered 50 to 1 by Arabs? They`d surely fight any Israeli takeover of the Saudi fields. ... could well be they would fight. But at the moment thanks to usa Israel has a qualitative edge, so Israel has good chances of holding on to them. once Israel wins the initial fighting then Israel even if it drops the price of oil considerably to sweeten world opinion, will be able to use its new found wealth to increase its qualitative edge. This plan is not without its risks as you have pointed out. But it seesm to me the least worst option that it has. duncan

Why can`t they receive some good advice from some sensible organization, or something? ... they receive plenty of good advice from palestinian well wishers. how much it is listened to is another matter. Islamic fundamentalism and basic common sense are not always the best of partners. duncan

Duncan, I don't want to see Israel or anyone else "go under"...unless it is Bush, of course. I would like to see the two state solution and have peace for once in the middle east. I see what you mean by the Saudi oil being an option if Israel loses American support, but I cannot imagine that ever happening. Even if it did, what about what you said, that Israel is outnumbered 50 to 1 by Arabs? They'd surely fight any Israeli takeover of the Saudi fields.

Yes, the Palestinians should negotiate with Israel. I know the contents of the Hamas charter, referring to Israel's destruction. But Hamas and Fatah might as well tear up those charters; fat chance they will ever destroy Israel, or even dent it. They'd do better to discard the charters and ask Israel for withdrawal of the settlements. The longer they put it off, the less land will be theirs eventually. If they look at the situation realistically, they must see this. The longer they wave their charters around, the more the settlements grow. Why can't they receive some good advice from some sensible organization, or something?

It is now taking the wild risk of offering them a state (as they have said many times that they want a state to be launching pad for terror attcks against israel with the aim of eventually destroying it. ) something that no arab country knowing the risks of instabilty this involved was prepared to do. duncan

The UN might not carry much moral standing in Israel, as you have written, but it does carry some in the rest of the world. What`s Israel going to do, stand alone, surrounded by a sea of enemies? ... at the risk of repeting myself. I was advocating for israel to take that course when it is alone in the world if it loses us as an ally. so not much to lose then is there. better to be alive and unpopular then dead and popular. option 2 was experienced by jews in 39-45, now will be the time to try option 1. duncan

asked this before, but if what you wrote quoted above is correct, why are the settlements in the West Bank considered illegal, even by America, who is, as I pointed out before, Israel`s only friend/ally? ..... not all presidents considered settlements illegal. according to rostow (a previous under secretary of state.)reagan said they are legal although he opposed them. duncan

. As of now, Israel only has one friend. The lure of Saudi oil is not strong enough for Israel to lose America. ... I was not advocating for israel to take saudi oil NOW. only in a future theorortical situation when it loses us support and has no us aid. Israel is outnumbered 50 to 1 by arabs both in people and land Israel is dependant for its survival for having a qualitive edge in its arms. If it loses us arms, it will have to replace it somehow. It may not bother you if Israel goes under, but it bothers Israel. saudi oil is a good option for israel to try. as Israelis view german reparations as precedent duncan

Hundreds of settlements and outposts, half a million settlers; does Israel intend to leave anything for the Palesinians? .... If the palestinians dislike settlements, they should give up terror and negotiate with Israel. at the moment both fatah and hamas say in their constitutions, that Israel has to be destroyed. Not much of an encouragement for Israel to stop settlements. why ? so that the palestinians cn fulfil their evil aims without sweating too much. " UN resolutions and international law clearly state that an occupying power is not to colonise with its own population the land it seized in war" tht was referring to a soverighn country. the west bank hs never belonged to a soverign country. the last legal owner was israel in 70ad duncan

"Israel is now taking the wild risk of offering the Palestinians a state" What??

The UN might not carry much moral standing in Israel, as you have written, but it does carry some in the rest of the world. What's Israel going to do, stand alone, surrounded by a sea of enemies?

"The Jewish right of settlement in Palestine west of the Jordan river, the West Bank, was made unassailable. That right had never been terminated" I've asked this before, but if what you wrote quoted above is correct, why are the settlements in the West Bank considered illegal, even by America, who is, as I pointed out before, Israel's only friend/ally?

Loyal and faithful ally as America is, I don't believe America would allow Israel to take over the oil fields even if by some miracle it was suddenly able to do so. And Israel cannot stand alone, although you do seem to think so. As of now, Israel only has one friend. The lure of Saudi oil is not strong enough for Israel to lose America.

"calling settlements illegal is a political device to put pressure on Israel to stop them" Not working very well, then, is it? Hundreds of settlements and outposts, half a million settlers; does Israel intend to leave anything for the Palesinians? UN resolutions and international law clearly state that an occupying power is not to colonise with its own population the land it seized in war. Israel is obviously doing just that in the WB. I don't understand how you can pretend otherwise, Duncan.

"rostow who helped draft un 242 said it and he should know." Jesus is God's son and was born by a virgin. The pope says it and he should know.

i was not being origonl, rostow who helped draft un 242 said it and he should know. duncan

obviously russia is not feasible on practical grounds anyway, I was just making a moral difference betwwen saudi and russia on how they used their oil fields duncan

i was not being origonl, rostow who helped draft un 242 said it and he should know. duncan

one interpretation. 2 quotes. one first hand , one second hand. duncan

"as for russia it has not used its gas to fund criminal acts aginst Israel." Lucky Russia! So at least they must not fear to be occupied by almighty Israel. After this declaration of yours, Mr. Putin can sleep well again.

I see that the idea of reparations for criminal acts is a sensitive one for you. I can understand that. as for russia it has not used its gas to fund criminal acts aginst Israel. under the bush doctrine of the war against terror. not only must terrorists be apprehended but also those who fund them must be brought to book. If this policy long advocated by Israel been applied by usa. then tragedy of 9/11 could have been avoided. duncan

j)Can`t be terminated? Rubbish; it could, and it was. .. modification does not mean abrogation. j) Rostow is wrong, pure and simple: Britain "terminated" that right, and did it "by the book". ... (1)un ga did not have the authorty as being against un charter article 80. (2) you are contradicting yourself as before you agreed that non israeli jews have the right to settle because of article 80. duncan

Why stop with such moderate objectives? I suggest Israel also takes over the Russian gas in Siberia. When megalomaniac, then thorougly megalomaniac, I'd say.

D: "But the Jewish right of settlement in Palestine west of the Jordan river, that is, in Israel, the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, was made unassailable. That right has never been terminated and cannot be terminated" Can't be terminated? Rubbish; it could, and it was. Article 27 of the Mandate Text: The Mandatory can make any changes it likes to the "terms", provided it gains the approval of the League of Nations. After the LoN wound up that supervisory right was handed over to the UN GA. UN GA Res 181 begins: "The General Assembly, Having met in special session at the request of the mandatory Power" Britain wanted to change the Mandate terms, and asked for the consent of the UN GA. Britain got it; 33-13. Rostow is wrong, pure and simple: Britain "terminated" that right, and did it "by the book". D: "except by a recognized peace between Israel and its neighbors." Wrong again; the "terms" were between the British and the JEWS, not Israel.

D: "It takes a day to get out of your fox hole and move to advance. The later Israel left it, the more casualties it would face." Tripe. You are talking an antiquated Egyptian army circa 1967; the USA were under no doubt that the Egyptians could not change posture without them seeing the ponderous movement the instant it began, and were in no doubt that Israel could change from a defensive to and offensive posture virtually instantly.

Duncan illustrates the major barrier to peace in the Middle East; Israel`s inability to even *cinsider* that there are Other Players with Other Opinions .......... nonsense. Israel has considered the arab palestinians more than the arabs have considered them. It is now taking the wild risk of offering them a state (as they have said many times what they intend to do with such a state) something that no arab country knowing the risks of instabilty this involved was prepared to do. Israel when it comes to the palestinins has become more catholic than the pope. Perhaps Israel's problem is that it considers other people's opinions too much. A lot of people are in their graves now in Israel because of Israel's deference to other people's opinion. duncan

It would be the Iraqi-Kuwaiti war all over again, but a 100 times worst for the "aggressor". Which would, of course, be "Israel". ... Israel is not about to take over the saudi oil fields. but if it did Israel (and the world) would prosper. It would publicise the evidence that saudi oil is being used to finance al quaida terror then it would sell the oil to us at cost price and to the europeans at a lot cheaper than they are paying at the moment. Israel would become a hero to the american people by vastly reducing its risk to alquaid a terror and setting off a great economic boom that it has never known. as for the europeans, they are too cowardly to risk a nuclear exchange with Israel. But I doubt it would come to that. There would be a condemnation in un general assembly, but the un ga which has in the past justified terror attacks against Israeli civilians does not carry much moral standing in Israel. duncan

http://www.tzemachdovid.org/Facts/islegal1.shtml But the Jewish right of settlement in Palestine west of the Jordan river, that is, in Israel, the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, was made unassailable. That right has never been terminated and cannot be terminated except by a recognized peace between Israel and its neighbors. And perhaps not even then, in view of Article 80 of the U.N. Charter, "the Palestine article," which provides that "nothing in the Charter shall be construed ... to alter in any manner the rights whatsoever of any states or any peoples or the terms of existing international instruments...."

(j)They were rapidly moving forces into the Sinai, and rapidly digging them in. Very hard to conquer another country when you are bunkered down in your foxhole. ..... It takes a day to get out of your fox hole and move to advance. The later Israel left it, the more casualties it would face. (j)no Israeli-flagged vessels had used the Straits for two years; ... url please. D: "Israel believed an attack was imminent" Ahhh, so ill-founded paranioa . .... Israel's belief that it faced attack came from nasser's own words. so ridiculous to call it paranioa. D: "Jordan hoping to share in the spoils of war attacked Israel first not vice virsa" Jordan had a defense pact with Egypt, Duncan. When Israel attacked Egypt that triggered that pact. ... so you believe in '67 jordan was a victim of israeli aggression do you, even though it made a defense pact with egypt to attack Israel.

Israel is not about to seize the Saudi oil fields. ... agreed. If in the future us decided to cut off aid and lost the friendship of usa. Israel would be able to make a good moral claim on them seeing that they have been used to finance 40 years of terror and war. Israel being a generous country would probably announce that it would sell it at 10 dollars barrel helping it to start off an world economic boom, s well as cutting off much of al quaida's financing. winners all round, except if you are a muslim fanatic. duncan

Why then are the settlements consistently and continually referred to as "illegal"? On TV, in newspapers, on the Internet, in magazines... .... The un has called it illegal (just as as they in effect called the whole country illegal with their zionism is racist resolution before they were pressured to recant) calling it illegal is a political device to put pressue on Israel to stop them duncan.

That Duncan can attempt to claim - quite seriously, it appears - that Israel could ever have overrun the Saudi oilfields - but simply chose not to do so - says volumes about the level of self-delusion involved in his thinking. Never could have happened. Never will happen. Would have been the swift death of Israel, and WOULD STILL BE the swift death of Israel, and everyone else in the entire world but Duncan knows it. It would be the Iraqi-Kuwaiti war all over again, but a 100 times worst for the "aggressor". Which would, of course, be "Israel". Self-delusion writ large, powered by overweening hubris and astonishing naivety. Duncan illustrates the major barrier to peace in the Middle East; Israel's inability to even *cinsider* that there are Other Players with Other Opinions - as far as they are concerned Israel is the be-all and the end-all, and what it says, goes. And what it wants, happens.

D: "rostow the us under secretry of state who helped draft un 242 said quite clearly that settlements are legal." And Rostow must, of course, have given REASONS why those settlements are legal. After all, he wasn't God-Emporer of the World, whose Word is Law. So let's hear his reasons, Duncan, and we'll see which ones have any rationale behind them, and which ones are simply self-serving zionist nonsense. Because, of course, Rostow was himself quite a committed supporter of zionism.

d: "as far as I know they were rapidly moving forces into sinai to attack Israel." They were rapidly moving forces into the Sinai, and rapidly digging them in. Very hard to conquer another country when you are bunkered down in your foxhole. D: "Egypt blockaded goods bound to and from Israel through the Straits of Tiran" Care to name the ships who were stopped? No such ships were stopped, because no Israeli-flagged vessels had used the Straits for two years; a fact known to both the Israelis and the Egyptians but not, apparently, to you. D: "Israel believed an attack was imminent" Ahhh, so ill-founded paranioa is a valid excuse to attack another country? Very Bush-doctrinal. D: "Jordan hoping to share in the spoils of war attacked Israel first not vice virsa" Jordan had a defense pact with Egypt, Duncan. When Israel attacked Egypt that triggered that pact.

Israel is not about to seize the Saudi oil fields. It does not have the military capacity to do so, and even if it did, to do that would be to lose the friendship of the only friend Israel has in the world, namely, America.

Why then are the settlements consistently and continually referred to as "illegal"? On TV, in newspapers, on the Internet, in magazines...

Isarel has much to be thankful to usa for. having said that, the reason why Israel has not siezed saudi's oil fields as reparation of all the wars nd terror it has funded against it, is in sensitivity to us interests. If the us withdrew its objection Israel would not need us money and the us tax payer could keep it. what do you say to the deal. ? duncan

The Mandate terminated in 1947. Your claim that settlements in the Westbank are something like "Mandate revisited" is original, but nevertheless absurd.

rostow the us under secretry of state who helped draft un 242 said quite clearly that settlements are legal. This does not mean that it is not politiclly convenient to call them illegal duncan

the 48 borders before `67 were never part of sovereign legal Israel, just subject to an armistice agreement. after un 242 they became part of sovereign legal Israel. can you give yes or no to this factual paragraph. (j)Res 242: "Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war" necessity over rides international law. eg if a person steals a gun to save himself from a person trying to murder him, he has a defence in court of necessity. (j)Res 181 superceded the Mandate Text. you are contradictimg yourself. as previously you acknowledged that non Israeli jews have the right to settle in west bank based on the mandate text, implicity acknowledging that it has not been superceded article 80 of un charter says it cannot be superceded duncan

As expected, you failed to provide literal quotes from the documents in question. Instead, you provide interpretations and opinions as "evidence" for your own interpretations and opinions. Lousy performance.

In June 1967? The answer is, again, "NO". Those Arabs forces were ALL dug into defensive positions. They were NOT positioned to attack Israel, because they were NOT planning to attack Israel .............. (1)as far as I know they were rapidly moving forces into sinai to attack Israel. if you have a url showing differently please provide it. what is defensive today becomes offensive tomorrow. (2) Egypt blockaded goods bound to and from Israel through the Straits of Tiran. A causus bellum abd death by strangultion is no better than death by execution (3) Israel believed an attack was imminent if you have a url showing differntly please provide. (4)Jordan hoping to share in the spoils of war attacked Israel first not vice virsa duncan

(1)implicit. as it is widely recognised even by arabs to to deal only with pre 67 borders so from 49 borders to 47 a net gain for israel. (2)http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1056191/posts After the.., the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff stated that, "From a strictly military point of view, Israel would require the retention of some captured territory in order to provide militarily defensible borders." The Chiefs made the following specific findings: "The prominent high ground running north-south through the middle of West Jordan [Judea and Samaria] generally...would provide Israel with a " (3) http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/2fca2c68106f11ab05256bcf007bf3cb!OpenDocument&Highlight=2,mandate Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country; and

Duncan, it is illegal for a country to settle its colonists on land it is occupying. The settlements and outposts in the WB are illegal. Israel is going to keep the settlements, and eventually, the entire WB. That has always been the plan, and I don't expect anyone to have a serious try at stopping this from happening. But, that being said, please don't pretend it is otherwise or pretend that it is legal. That just makes Israel appear hypocritical. Regards

D: "un 242 acknowledged Israel`s view regrading the west bank that where it is used for agression against Israel, Israel can keep part of it." Res 242: "Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war" D: "besides without miltary defensible borders Israel cannot survive so alon plan is entirley legitimate even if israel annexed it" Res 242: "Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war" You are attempting to interpret some parts of Res 242 in a way that clearly run counter to ANOTHER part of Res 242 (my quotes), and that leads to a manifestly absurd result. That means your interpretation is WRONG. D: "league of nations calls for a jewish state when it obligates the jews to reconstitute their homeland, so settlement in west bank is legal" Res 181 superceded the Mandate Text, Duncan. Res 242 and beyond make clear that the West Bank is OCCUPIED TERRITORY. You can not colonize occupied territory, Duncan. You Are Wrong.

D: "the arabs got what they deserved." Riiiight. A debatable point; but the import is clear - the Arabs "got what they deserved". What did they "get", Duncan? They got attacked. By Israel. Not the other way around. Silvienne asked wether the arabs attacked Israel first, and the answer to HER question is "NO"; Israel attacked the Arabs. What you are claiming is that the Arabs were asking for it, but that is not the same thing as claiming that the Arabs attacked first. They didn't; Israel attacked them. Did they "deserve it"? That depends on an imponderable; if Israel HADN'T attacked would she have been attacked by the Arabs? In June 1967? The answer is, again, "NO". Those Arabs forces were ALL dug into defensive positions. They were NOT positioned to attack Israel, because they were NOT planning to attack Israel. The Arabs were rattling sabres. But it was Israel who attacked them, not vice versa.

"Israel is Israel,live with it, or do not buy anything it creates,discovers,or manufactures" Any six-months boycott of Israeli products will have this tiny state bankrupt. Do Israeli cars drive with water (the little which is still there) from the Dead Sea, or what???

...then you won't be wanting any more of America's money either, right?

ad 1) Please provide a literal quote of the text which corroborates your interpretation. ad 2) Please provide a literal quote of the text which corroborates your interpretation. ad 3) Please provide a literal quote of the text which corroborates your interpretation. PS. Have you noticed that the frequency of interpretations of these texts is reciprocally proportional to their writers' ability to provide literal quotes?

The Allon Plan was - and is - entirely based upon an illegal land-grab, and successive Israeli govt`s have been well aware of that fact, and choose to ignore it. Amorality, Duncan. ........... (1)un 242 acknowledged Israel's view regrading the west bank that where it is used for agression against Israel, Israel can keep part of it. the 48 borders before '67 were never part of soverign legal Israel, just subject to an armistice agreement. after un 242 they became part of soverign legal Israel. Aggressor pays price is the message of un 242 (2)besides without miltary defensible borders Israel cannot survive so alon plan is entirley legitimate even if israel annexed it. us experts determined what are the military borders Israel needs. (3)league of nations calls for a jewish state when it obligates the jews to reconstitute their homeland, so settlement in west bank is legal. duncan

are you able to continue our discussion ? duncan

Nasser threatened Israel's destruction. He did not say if you attack syria, we will come to her aid. He said Israel is going to be detroyed. Does not sound like much of a victim to me. The arabs on the street were rejoicing at Israel's imminent demise. The arabs after all were on the side of the nazis in ww2. Jordan thought Israel was going to die. so it attacked Israel despite Israel begging it to keep out of the war. the arabs got what they deserved. duncan

If Rice so identifies with the Palestinians, and James Baker loves his clients the Saudis, and Peres ,Barak, Olmert, Livni, the Ed.Minister, Ramon, Nick Burns have such concerns for them,let them all go live in Saudi Arabia, the West Bank, Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, and Iran. Israel can put its foot down, kick out the Palestinians,determine it will no longer give an inch away,in fact,it should just say the PLO and all of its subfactions failed to live up to any agreements and Hamas, Hizbollah, etc. are not legitimate,and reclaim all of the West Bank. Tell Syria to live without the Golan, never their's legitimately, and inform the world Israel is Israel,live with it, or do not buy anything it creates,discovers,or manufactures- including the US.Enough is enough. Rice is a Saudi stooge.Forget it.For 3B a yearIsrael has to commit suicide?Come on!Israel holds all the land and the cards.Make the demands and let them struggle with it. Most Americans will cheer.The EU will be busy with jihadists

Exposes your hypocrisy, you've already done the damage to your Abo's.. Concern yourself with their welfare..After all the ME is so far removed from your land. Axtually, if you feel all that concerned, hop a flight, your brothers would appreciate your active participation.

Refer to the timelines, '67 war..As usual, JB is distorting things..

S: "I had always thought that the three Arab countries surrounding Israel had begun the attack...?" No, not so. Syria and Israel had rattled sabres at each other for months. Syria believed that Israel was planning to attack her. The Russians told Egpyt they had intel suggesting that Israel WAS planning to attack Syria. So Nasser rushed troops into the Sinai and DUG THEM IN i.e. a show of support for Syria and a deterrent to Israel. That was the situation on June 4 1967. June 5th 1967. EVERY SINGLE FIGHTER PLANE in the IAF was sent on a sneak attack on the Egyptian airforce, wiping it out ON THE GROUND. At *exactly* the same time 3 IDF armored divisions launched an armored offensive into the Sinai. The unique Israeli "defensive-offensive". The logic-contorting "pre-emptive counter-attack" without there ever being an "initial attack" to "counter". Israel started that war. They attacked the Arabs, not vice versa.

Which is, of course, to shout "Don't look at what Israel is doing now! Go look at what Other People did Way Back Then! Wasn't that just terrible!?!?" It is as stupid as it is hollow, BEN. What happened in Australia happened in a completely different world, under a completely different set of international law. Has Australia attempted to right past wrongs? Yes, it has. It now recognizes native title, which it never did before. Is it relevent to Israel/Palestine? No. All of Israel's actions were carried out under post-WW2 Int'l Law, not the law that was in place when Australia was being colonized. Israel doesn't live in a temporal bubble, BEN. Israel can't NOW act like an 18th or 19th century colonial power, simply because there were colonial powers back THEN. Israel was founded two centuries too late? A pity, BEN, but so sorry; THAT IS TOO BAD FOR ISRAEL.

I had always thought that the three Arab countries surrounding Israel had begun the attack...? Not the Palestinians, who as you said had no army at all, but Syria, Jordan and Eygpt were the countries I thought had started that war. Regards

for one of us..about the two-post-retraction.Actually I didn't expect you to reply to all, thought you might just like to read them sometimes, perhaps they'd give you a laugh. I've been reading this website: http://www.mahal2000.com/ to learn about volunteering.It was nice to read that the foreign soldiers with no family in Israel got "adopted" by so many Israelis. Also I read the thread with you and Axel slagging it out about Kurt W; seems he was indeed a nazi, and you were angry with Axel not for being a German but because he defended Kurt W. Surprised Kurt didn't run off to South America.I was annoyed with "Sarah" when she ranted on at Axel about the holocaust because we know many Germans were killed by the nazis before the war for speaking out against Hitler;she didn't know his position on the war.But, never mind. Layla Tov (is that correct?)Regards

D: "interesting way of looking at things" It is the correct way of looking at things. Hamas wants to replace the JEWISH state with a state that spans all of Palestine. That is a POLITICAL agenda. You confuse AIMS with MEANS. If Hamas could achieve that aim with a plebiscite - Jews and Arabs agreeing on a single non-Jewish state - then I am sure they would be DELIGHTED. If they can achieve that aim by turning the tables on Israel and blockading and strangling her economy until it collapsed then I am sure they would be DELIGHTED. But if they can't do that then they would be quite willing to use force in 2017 to achieve that POLITICAL objective. But those are all MEANS. Not AIMS. And after 10 years of peace will the PALESTINIANS be willing to allow Hamas to attempt that? No. It'd be highly doubtful that Hamas would even EXIST; National Liberation Movements don't long survive independence. Just look at Irgun and the Stern Gang.

D: "implicitly accusing Israel of being greedy and immoral" No, I am being EXPLICIT in saying that Israel's zionist policies since 1967 have been based on greed and amorality. The Allon Plan was - and is - entirely based upon an illegal land-grab, and successive Israeli govt's have been well aware of that fact, and choose to ignore it. Amorality, Duncan. D: "My point was that if there was justice in the world it would get international support to make the agressors cede land just as germany did." The aggressor in the Six Day War was Israel, Duncan. It started that war with a surprise attack from the air, and an armored offensive in the Sinai. Not the Arabs, who were ALL dug into their foxholes in defensive positions, and certainly not the Palestinians, who had no army at all. But Int'l Law is long past the stage of assigning BLAME ("aggressor" vs "defender"); there is a blanket ban on annexation, and what YOU claim as "ceding" is really "annexation".

my post was related to morality rather pragmatism. you say "Because it doesn`t JUST want peace, MG. It wants peace AND it wants to keep all of it military conquests. " implicitly accusing Israel of being greedy and immoral My point was that if there was justice in the world it would get international support to make the agressors cede land just as germany did. duncan

If you could continue our discussion I would appreciate it ........... No, that is a political objective of Hamas i.e. the Jewish state is illegitimate, and they want to replace it with a Palestinian state. .... interesting way of looking at things. so when the soviet union viewed non communist states as illegitimate and conquered eastern europe, killing 10's of thousands in the process. that was a political objective backed up by military means. Eastern europe never had a military problem as such. Coz after 10 years of peace and prosperity Hamas`ll be long gone to the scrap-heap .... the 9/11 bombers were well to do middle class. Islamic militancy is not confined to the impoverished. meanwhile they will be arming agressively to defeat the zionist opressor. after 10 years they will be in a far better position to inflict numerous casualties on Israel. duncan

I'm honored to be in the presence of an imitation John Wayne..I can just envision your holding a BMG fifty in your hands, blazing away at the Viet Cong..It's thrilling, if only it were true..I seem to recall that the U.S. ran out of Vietname with it's tail between it's legs, abandoning the South Vietnames to the mercies of North Vietnam & the Viet Cong.. As for Lebaon, so what..With your capabilites and bragadaccio, you would qualify for a PLO postion with the PLO (PLO- permanent latrine orderly) Your the first foolthat I've ever encountered that brags about being under fire..Most people would rather forget it..You really should have ducked, it effected your sensibilites... As to your question to me, yes, I've been under fire..Very few in the IDF haven't..I suggest you research Mahal in your computer..You'll learn about American "VOLUNTEERS"...You weren't one. You have an apartment in Israel, so what, so did I.. STOP SHVITIZING.

I retract the two post limitation..Just keep them more reasonable...I can't respond to posts fired in machinegun like rapidity..."My nose", what that means is that you have rights, your rights stop when they interfere with mine and vice versa...

I respect your U.S. Army service in Vietnam very much. But Ben Jabo has also served in the U.S. Army, and also in the IDF. He has seen terrible things just as you have. He deserves as much respect for his service as you do for your own. In an earlier Talkback I posted this information to you but perhaps you didn't see it. Military service is extremely admirable in my opinion. People like myself, who will never have to go through it, cannot imagine what combat is like. My father was in the U.S. Navy and my stepfather in the British Army.

I'm not sure what you mean, "if you thought the negative outweighed the positive there wouldn't be any communication"... Some posters here are absolutely hysterical and incredibly venomous-on both sides of the issue. This makes it not worth talking to them. Besides, there isn't any communication anyway because of the Two Post Rule and another post you wrote to me earlier saying my democratic rights stop at the tip of your nose. I've told you that your nose is losing its edge these days as sometimes it can't seem to diferentiate between friend and foe.

Axel Why the curiosity,and what difference does it make to a German? The numbers of foreighners who have the liberty to come to Haaretz is astounding,and only to find fault about Israel,denigrate it as much as they can and satisfaction granted to their soul,and restoration to their beliefs. If two Jews want to discuss and argue among themselves just let them be.Who are you wanting to know the number of Jews who fled the Arab countries. I'll tell you once again as I told Joel. IRAQ,YEMEN,IRAN,JORDAN,NORTHERN AFRICA,AND MANY MORE IN GREAT NUMBERS TOO I FORGET THE REST BECAUSE THEY WERE SO NUMEROUS. I AM NOT COUNTING THE ONES FROM EUROPE FOR GOOD REASON, AS HITLER KILLED ALL THE EUROPEAN JEWS WHEREVER THEY WERE.And not only the 6 million but I would count the many generations that we lost through their disappearance/murder. So many Einsteins lost for sure Axel think about it. Think,cry and repent! .With the exception of Turkey who remained neutral with good reason,and not for the love of the Jews I assure you.I have been told by my elders that Turkey was in the process of preparing the ?gas chambers?and the turks were very pro-German at the start, until they decided that Germany was on the losing side and changed tack.So,the only Jews who survived were the Turkish ones. To think The Nazis? were on the doorstep of Turkey !By that I mean Greece and the whole of the Balkans. Now get a book and read for heaven?s sake and wonder no more?

Axel Why the curiosity,and what difference does it make to a German mine herr here? The numbers of foreighners who have the liberty to come to Haaretz is astounding,and only to find fault about Israel,denigrate it as much as they can and satisfaction granted to their soul,and restoration to their beliefs. Hells,bells enough with you! It HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU,GO AWAY AND LEAVE US IN PEACE. If two Jews want to discuss and argue among themselves just let them be.Who the hell are you wanting to know the number of Jews who fled the Arab countries. I'll tell you once again as I told Joel. IRAQ,YEMEN,IRAN,JORDAN,NORTHERN AFRICA,AND MANY MORE IN GREAT NUMBERS TOO I FORGET THE REST BECAUSE THEY WERE SO NUMEROUS. I AM NOT COUNTING THE ONES FROM EUROPE FOR GOOD REASON, AS YOUR BLOODY HITLER KILLED ALL THE EUROPEAN JEWS WHEREVER THEY WERE.And not only the 6 million but I would count the many generations that we lost through their disappearance/murder. So many Einsteins lost for sure Axel think about it. Think,cry and repent! .With the exception of Turkey who remained neutral with good reason,and not for the love of the Jews I assure you.I have been told by my elders that Turkey was in the process of preparing the ?gas chambers?and the turks were very pro-German at the start, until they decided that Germany was on the losing side and changed tack.So,the only Jews who survived were the Turkish ones. To think your bloody compatriot ?The Nazis? were on the doorstep of Turkey !By that I mean Greece and the whole of the Balkans. Now get a book and read for heaven?s sake and wonder no more?

you're absolutely right!the land that God gave to abraham[his heir was isaac and not ishmael]was from euphrates river to mediterranean sea.how come these arabs got the majority of the land.

Joel How dare you accuse our dear BEN JABO of being ignorant and not knowing what he is talking about.Are you a historian/researcher? Ben is not a low-brow,mean-spirited kibitzer who has no real answers to the present subject. It is you who has to get a grip on your self. Hey,you sound almost the same as our Tosefta arguing your fruitless points without getting to the bottom of it.The only thing you do not do thank goodness is when "he loses" an argument he peremptorily reverts to the "Talmud" Get thee to a good book Joel p/s Your repetitions of my mistake in numbers was an omission by me but you still persist in mentioning it..Nevertheless the numbers can be proven. Joel I still Love you! Because you are one of mine!

Joel How dare you accuse our dear BEN JABO of being ignorant and not knowing what he is talking about.Are you a historian/researcher? Ben is not a low-brow,mean-spirited kibitzer who has no real answers to the present subject. It is you who has to get a grip on your self. Hey,you sound almost the same as our Tosefta arguing your fruitless points without getting to the bottom of it.The only thing you do not do thank goodness is when "he loses" an argument he peremptorily reverts to the "Talmud" Get thee to a good book Joel p/s Your repetitions of my mistake in numbers was an omission by me but you still persist in mentioning it..Nevertheless the numbers can be proven. Joel I still Love you! Because you are one of mine!

Joel How dare you accuse our dear BEN JABO of being ignorant and not knowing what he is talking about.Are you a historian/researcher? Ben is not a low-brow,mean-spirited kibitzer who has no real answers to the present subject. It is you who has to get a grip on your self. Hey,you sound almost the same as our Tosefta arguing your fruitless points without getting to the bottom of it.The only thing you do not do thank goodness is when "he loses" an argument he peremptorily reverts to the "Talmud" Get thee to a good book Joel p/s Your repetitions of my mistake in numbers was an omission by me but you still persist in mentioning it..Nevertheless the numbers can be proven. Joel I still Love you! Because you are one of mine!

Joel How dare you accuse our dear BEN JABO of being ignorant and not knowing what he is talking about.Are you a historian/researcher? Ben is not a low-brow,mean-spirited kibitzer who has no real answers to the present subject. It is you who has to get a grip on your self. Hey,you sound almost the same as our Tosefta arguing your fruitless points without getting to the bottom of it.The only thing you do not do thank goodness is when "he loses" an argument he peremptorily reverts to the "Talmud" Get thee to a good book Joel p/s Your repetitions of my mistake in numbers was an omission by me but you still persist in mentioning it..Nevertheless the numbers can be proven. Joel I still Love you! Because you are one of mine!

among the number of posts, but: ben jabo: "ISRAEL HAS ACCURATE FIGURES, they` haven`t been pulled out of the air." Where are these figures? Second, methodological question: How was a distinction made between Jews who were expelled and Jews who emigrated of their own accord?

I really hate to disillusion you..I've served in BOTH the U.S. Army (Combat Engineers) and the IDF (Armored Brigade)..I won't brag about my ranks, it would put you to shame, you have enough to be shameful of as is..Anybody bragging about being under fire, as you have, probably wasn't..My attachment to Israel is a lot deeper than yours.. I don't misuse information, you're just not capable of understanding it, as others have also pointed out to you...It took only about two weeks, everyone's got your number. Just wondering, in your expertise (LOL), did you ever figure out the Hebrew expression in my last post?? I'll be nice, it translates as: "What does a donkey understand about fruit soup" Sorry Joel, it's too bad you're so out of touch with reality...Keep safe, stay off the bike and stop Shvitzing... End of conversations, it's hard dealing with the ignorant..

It seems you're totally unable to comprehend, it's beyond your grasp..ISRAEL HAS ACCURATE FIGURES, they' haven't been pulled out of the air..Each immigrant, regardless of country, is recorded in a most methodical manner..Unlike yourself, who makes statements, having no knowledge of the situation..Keep it up, as they say, "Mah Chamor Mayvin m'Marak Pirot"...Describes you to a "T"... I'll be glad to translate it for you, if you can't figure it out for yourself..

Potzer Ben. Your best research isn't good enough for a serious discussion about a very tragic event in Jewish and Palestinain history. As far as service, I served with distction in the USArmy in Viet Nam as a combat team leader. I later worked as a combat pohtographer in Lebanon in 83-83. Seeing thing that you could not stand up to I am sure. Were you ever under fire Ben? The way you rant and misuse information and so easily fly off the handle I would guss that you were never in anything more serious than a pissing contest. Some fox hole buddy you would make. Dismissed PFC. (Profoundly Foolish Child)

If I thought they negative outweighed the positive there wouldn't be any communication. I don't agree with my wife all the time either, nor she with me...Life still goes on..

Didn't take long did it?..Everybody's got or getting your number...You sure must feel real proud of yourself...Keep it up, you can rise to rank of Mefaked Schvitzer'm.

Kath I never mentioned numbers. You, Linda and the free lance potzer Jabo did. The three stooges of this very serious and tragic issue. Do you really think that by pulling numbers out of the air that no one can qualify, including professional demographers and historians, given the impossible, chaotic circumstances of a post WW2 world would help the dispossesed? So instead we have parsers like you who know nothing and worst of all at the same time speak about their fabricated idea of what happened to the what the Jewish right meanly calls so-Palestinians. No person with any moral iand intellectual ntegrety would give themselves over to the evil charade of lies that you bandy about, it helps no one solves nothing, but it probably makes you feel pretty high and mighty like old Ben eh?

Kath I never mentioned numbers. You, Linda and the free lance potzer Jabo did. The three stooges of this very serious and tragic issue. Do you really think that by pulling numbers out of the air that no one can qualify, including professional demographers and historians, given the impossible, chaotic circumstances of a post WW2 world would help the dispossesed? So instead we have parsers like you who know nothing and worst of all at the same time speak about their fabricated idea of what happened to the what the Jewish right meanly calls so-Palestinians. No person with any moral iand intellectual ntegrety would give themselves over to the evil charade of lies that you bandy about, it helps no one solves nothing, but it probably makes you feel pretty high and mighty like old Ben eh?

All the census figures are within a close range of one another...Israel has accurate statistics of who came in and from whence they came. Unlike yourself, I don't pretend to be an expert, just research to the best of my ability. I don't brag about my homes or financial status.. You, however, are pretentious as all Shvitzers are, pretending to be what you're not, easily outed and despised... I hate to disillusion you, I'm not a Kibbitzer, I'll compare my IDF service with yours anytime, that is if you ever served at all... Don't forget, wear your helmet, there isn't much left upstairs for you to scramble... In any event, you've contributed nothing here, just plain old fashioned hot air, worth bupkis. Come back to reality, you're merely a "Luftmensh" that's been exposed.

Hey you Joel! I just sow my name bandied about about the millions I said in reply to Linda. It was an error of judgement at the time.Hoever,since we have all the Jews who fled form the Muslim/Arab countries we have a very good idea of their numbers.Just go and do a bit of studying and get the true picture and numbers.Just begin by counting all the Arab countries in the ME region,then begin calulating the number of Jews who lived there. Example:Iraq,Yemen,Egtypt,North Africa,and I can go ad-infinitum!You silly bugger(oooops!sorry language)BUT TRUTH IS TRUTH,and Linda is showing you what the true picture is,and this coming not from a Jew(as far as I can understand),but from a Zionist gentile. Get a life with your nonsensical numbers!!

"Egypt doesnt want it, Jordan doesnt want it, the palestinians dont want it and the international community does not want it." So what? It is Israel's prerogative to free its territory from enemies. The Arab world is already trying to annihilate Israel, so that can't be worse, and the "international community does not want it" is nothing but delusionist talk from your side.

"The Palestinians do not want a two state solution" You know this for a fact, do you? Because many of their leaders have said repeatedly that they do want it.

"In `45 the allies forced Germany to cede some of its territory to Poland, as punishment for being an aggressor." Wrong. German territory was allocated to Poland as COMPENSATION for Polish territory allocated to Russia. No idea of punishment at all. Learn your history before posting.

Okay, I'm reading your #116 for the correct figures. As for jumping on Weltman's bandwagon, remember who defended you during Weltman tirade of posts about your military service, your credit cards, etc.etc. in the other talkback! Regards

I know the sources Ben, probably better than you. Some of my family came out of Algeria and were lucky enough to land in the US. There are no reliable census figures anywhere. Linda states a million, Kath millions, you cull 850K the JNF says something again, and then we have the wonderful world of Joan Peters another real help who tred to deny that Palestinians even existed prior to the building of Tel Aviv. I am not arguing that Jews either were not forced to leave their homes in the Arab world, or that some were very happy to heed the Zionist Shofar. I am aguing against cooking the demographic books, we have enough tsuris defending a really bad record of abuses, that you systematically rant about and deny. You are not a historian, or even a qualified researcher, what you are is a relatively low-brow, mean-spirited kibitzer who has no real answers for this terrible prisoners dillema that we find ourselves in. Get a grip on yourself Ben.

Even the people living in your men's shelter have the intelligence to do a bit of research, which, is apparently beyond your capability. Forget Wikipedia, try the Jewish Virtual Library, here's the link...Sit back and learn of which you speak...Sorry there's no voice or cartoons. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/jewref.html

Forget Wikipedia, there are many sources for the figures I posted..My #116 indicates another. You really must stop riding that bike without a helmet, the spills are effecting the Moach inside the Golgolet. If you weren't so busy Shvitzing and riding your bike, you could easily confirm the figures. As amatter of fact, try the Jewish Virtual Library, they too have the figures.. Keep on Shvitzing!!

O you, of the many high falluting and windy speeches... Let's not forget the land you stole from your Aboriginies, without them ceding the land to your thieving ancestors... No compensation, you had guns, they didn't.. Aboriginies didn't sign any papers.. Make it right with them, then pontificate. Otherwise it's hypocriscy to the nth degree, to tell others what to do when you don't practice what you keep on preaching... Just keep in mind the old adage "To thine ownself be true", you aren't!! the did

ChanahS hello Aren't we lucky they are far from our country,and yet here,near us to spew their venom patting each other on the back denigrating Israel and our people.My reply to you yesterday as is usual with Haaretz did not surface. Anyway,you did a good job by putting both of them in their place. Shalom ve Litraot

Pal'prince I sent you a responce,but haaretz did not put it out yesterday.Tough! What I said was the fact that we Jews were in the Holy Land long, long before there was any other religion in the whole world.Briefly put:No Judaism then no Chritianity and MOST CERTAINLY NO ISLAM! On the point of the "Mandate" The Brit's cheated our Jews and as was their custom created an artificial country now called Jordan where all your brethren live.During the Mandate the Jews were called Palestinians and the rest merely Arabs.I should think a bit before you cast aspersions on the spurious subject to suit your purpose.Personally speaking I don's give two hoots if the Arabs recognize Israel or not. We were/are in our old country with all the proof for all to see.Further comment is unnecessary. Good day to you

D: "In `45 the allies forced Germany to cede some of its territory to Poland, as punishment for being an aggressor." What part of "unconditional surrender" don't you understand, duncan? You can get the vanguished to cede land if you can make them sign the papers. Germany signed the papers. It ceded the land. What you can't do is seize the land and say "I ain't giving it back, so give up asking". That's Israel's position, and it is insisting that the Arabs accede to that and sign the papers. Why should they? Out of fear? Boredom? Stupidity? Israel has NEVER FORCED A SURRENDER FROM ANYONE; her wars have ended in ceasefire, not surrender. In Armistice, not surrender. Israel has seized the land, and it refuses to leave. But that's as good as it gets for her, because she can't MAKE the other side sign the papers, and she makes no effort to TEMPT them into signing the papers. So what *does* Israel do next, duncan? Sit there forever, twiddling her thumbs?

you are right Linda didnt post millions, I was writing about #341 Kath who wrote... as you say,we are talking about the millions of Jews from Arab states who left with only what they had on their backs(literally nothing Quite hysterical wouldn't you agree? My point is that one must be very careful about numbers. I do not question the fact that there were Jewish refugees, I question the intentions of bloggers on the left and right who distort facts for their own sophist and incite-ridden purposes. One of the hysteric Kibbitzers (sidewalk commentators) named Jabo referenced a Wikipedia post that clearerly states that there were no citations for the aticle...quite a historian eh? Furthermore the fact that there were inhjustices perpetrated against the Sephardim going back to 1492 does not refute the claim that the Palestinains were thrown out their country and had no where to go at all, at least the Jews however destitute went home.

d: "the hamas and policy to destroy Israel as admitted to in their constitutions, is a miltary problem rather than a political problem." No, that is a political objective of Hamas i.e. the Jewish state is illegitimate, and they want to replace it with a Palestinian state. That is EXACTLY as much a political objective as was Ben Gurion's in creating the Jewish state in the first place; force was not his 1st option, but he didn't shirk from using it when diplomacy failed. Hamas are seeking a 10 year Hudna to create a viable and independent Palestine alongside Israel, and only after that will they attempt to unify both states. How they attempt that unification is something to worry about in 10 year's time, duncan. But here's my opinion; Israel would watch that clock tick down to 2017 with dread, and when it finally does they'd stand up in ASTONISHMENT and say "Hey! Where'd Hamas GO???". Coz after 10 years of peace and prosperity Hamas'll be long gone to the scrap-heap.

Because it doesn`t JUST want peace, MG. It wants peace AND it wants to keep all of it military conquests. ,,,, there is certainly successful international precedent for that. In '45 the allies forced Germany to cede some of its territory to Poland, as punishment for being an aggressor. at the same time it forced Germany to become a peaceful democratic country. duncan

No, I seek a way for Israel to extricate itself from a problem of her own making; a 40 year occupation of another people, and a marked propensity to seek a military solution to every political problem. .......... the hamas and policy to destroy Israel as admitted to in their constitutions, is a miltary problem rather than a political problem. duncan

"There is no purgatory with a devil and pitchfork in Judaism" Nor in Christianity, Chanah S. These are later, non-Biblical constructs. God is Love. God does not reject. The only notion of "Hell" that I can get my head around is a self-imposed reluctance to approach the glorious presence of God with our retained knowledge of everything we've ever done. Evil people skulk in the shadows, forever "wailing and gnashing their teeth".

I'm here The sun's rays Dazzling my eyes Eating fruit Till the juice runs down my arm. Humming To the music Life is short The summer is shorter

You learned the correct term. Now paste that description into Google and see what results. You're learning!

Silvienne, Lindas figures aren't exaggerated.. Joel has no idea of what he's talking about. The figures are available from a number of sources..My #116 this string gives explicit details..Don't be so eager to jump on Weltman's bandwagon..The figures are quite accurate.. Just refer to my #116..They don't sound worse, they're truthful...If in doubt, GOOGLE the info for yourself...

It does not matter if other people are nasty or nice. The Palestinians do not want a two-state solution.

Israel's diplomatic situation is hopeless and getting worse. The military situation also stinks. As soon as Hamas and/or Hezbollah get rockets that can reach Tel Aviv, and start to use them, Israel's position is basically untenable. There is no way to have a Jewish state without convincing Jews to live in Israel; no way to convince Jews to live in Israel if they are under rocket attack every day; no way to stop the rockets without total control of Southern Lebanon, Gaza and it's entries, the West Bank, and all smuggling routes in from Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq .... In short, there is no way. Period. Israel is already in a siege, and most of it's citizens don't even know it. So Livni goes to the Saudis and begs. What else can she do? It's all over but the screaming. Riley

THER IS NO WAY ISRAEL CAN BE PARTITIONED FOR ASECOND TIME AND SURVIVE ! NONE OF THE IDIOTS WHO WRITE IN AND SUGGEST THIS CAN REALISE HOW SMALL THE COUNTRY IS !! NO COUNTRY ONLY 15-20KMS WIDE AT ITS NARROW POINT CAN SURVIVE !!

What was the ranking about? It was about killing Jews and seizing all the land, even Israel, which is a Waqf, a territory once occupied by Muslims and so Islam?s land for ever.

WILL NEVER BE MOVED . WHATS GOOD FOR THE GOOSE IS GOOD FOR THE GANDER ?

...because he dare to stand up to you scum bags... If the people who dare to critize Bush is being called scum bags, what is a president who decided to invade a country illegally and killing hundreds of thousands of innocents civilian in the process SHOULD BE CALLED? O,o, I find it: A hero of a free WORLD. A racist, white supremacist, Scum Bags.

Since I have had to put up for months with your insistance that areas A and B of the West Bank are not under occupation, since the IDF does not control them. Yet here is the first line of this article: "Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on Wednesday that Israel was ready to hand over some security control in the West Bank to Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas' forces" Sure sounds like it's an occupation to me....

Joel, I didn't see the figure "millions" in that post (if #100 is still the same one); I think she said one million. That does not seem to be too far off, just somewhat high. Sir Martin Gilbert, the distinguished historian and biographer of Churchill, estimates a movement of over 580,000 Jewish refugees from Arab lands to Israel (he says they arrived in Israel "destitute"), and an additional 260,000 from those lands who found refuge in Europe and the Americas. (Gilbert, Routledge Atlas of the Arab Israeli Conflict, 8th ed., 2005, pp. 48-49).

If you want to make peace it probably a good idea to talk in terms of what are you willing to do that will make your adversary think that you really mean business. Your citations of Israeli intransigence have to be balanced with those actions of various Palestinian political groups that have not been exactly generous either. We can sit here all day long and go tit for tat ad infinitum, use carbon dating to see whose footprints are older, see whose narratives are less fanciful, and so on but at the end of the day you have to have someone to talk to in order to make things happen,. So now it seems again something is materialising, perhaps Bush is runnig scared, perhaps the Saudis are frantic, perhaps the Israelis are overly suspicious, perhaps the Palestinians have dropped the ball once too many times. It doesn't matter. It is time to talk again. Dont shout and wag your finger in my face. What can we do to make it hapen this time? Talk to me Prince. Shalom

and he had a remarkable smile in his face too. None of these Bush has." That's why terrorist like you hate him because he dare to stand up to you scum bags.

MG: "Johnboy: Admit it, you seek Israel`s destruction" No, I seek a way for Israel to extricate itself from a problem of her own making; a 40 year occupation of another people, and a marked propensity to seek a military solution to every political problem. It is *YOU* who are unwittingly seeking Israel's destruction by mindlessly insisting that Israel seek more and more conflict and more and more conquest. It is a quarantee that Israel will, eventually, collapse in on itself, exhausted and demoralized. Israel is simply REFUSING to discuss a comprehensive final settlement of ALL of its conflicts with ALL of its Arab neighbors. Those Arabs have presented their plan TWICE now, and Israel has simply dragged its heels both times. Because it doesn't JUST want peace, MG. It wants peace AND it wants to keep all of it military conquests. It can't have both. YOU are happy for it to choose the spoils of war, while I'M happy for it to choose peace.

If Israel had good intentions, they would have never low balled Arafat during Camp David 2000. They claimed it was Barak's "generous offer". Yeah right! It's not "generous" when you want to control all Palestinian borders (meaning no Palestinian sovereignty), annex 10 percent of the WB for 80 percent of the settlers. It's not "generous" when you won't bend on East Jerusalem and make the suburb of Abu Dis an East Jerusalem. It's not "generous" when you won't even accept fault for the refugee problem (not even imposing a resolution on that matter). It's not "generous" when you want to control Palestinian airspace. It's not "generous" when you want to annex the Jordan Valley creating 3 Palestinian canton Bantustans. The conniving tactics of Barak and then Sharon's provocative visit was the formula Israel needed to continue conflict, because conflict for Israel = more American dinero.

the criminals live. Still nothing to arrest them," said the aide. The novelty-store owner told WND he was shot by Muslims in 2001. He said the assailants are still at large. Cases involving other alleged anti-Christian violence include attacks against Bethlehem Christians in 2001 after a Palestinian Muslim leader called for a "jihad" against both Jews and Christians; riots that spilled over from Ramallah in 2002 in which Muslim mobs burned Christian businesses and attempted to destroy churches; and regular reports of shootings and threats. Israeli security officials say over 100 cases of anti-Christian violence are reported to the Palestinian police every year. They estimate most incidents go unreported. Some Christians told WND they were disturbed Muslim leaders this weekend blasted Israel for disrespecting holy sites while the Palestinians have a history of desecrating Christian and Jewish holy places. This past summer, Palestinians desecrated synagogues left standing in the

It is the only real important question in regard to peace in the middle east, and the fact that it is ignored by virtually every other poster says it all about what fools they are. There is only one important issue which will determine if there can be peace in our time (and like Jacques, I doubt that there will be). That issue has to do with the very nature of negotiations, which requires quid pro quo, i.e. both sides must have something to offer. So what does Abbas or any other palestinian leader have to offer Israel in return for concessions that raise the security risk to israeli citizens?? What Israel govt needs from Abbas is GUARANTEED security for its citizens. Can Abbas deliver? Can he provide the help necessary to crush the islamic terrorist element (Hamas, Isalmic Jihad, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade) among the palestinians? If he can, peace is possible, but I don't think he can or will, so there will be no peace in our time.

eventually dwindling to about twenty-five percent. "The Christians fled Bethlehem and have been fleeing Nazareth," said Ghrabi. Many Christians in Bethlehem and Nazareth say they face constant Muslim hostility. ...see the intimidation from the Muslims. They have burned down our stores, built mosques in front of our churches, stole our real estate and took away our rights. Women have been raped and abducted. So don't tell me about Israel. It's the Muslims." ... Muslim gangs defacing Christian property, the PA replacing Christian leaders on public councils with Muslims and armed Palestinian factions stirring tensions... The aide to Latin Patriarch Sabbah said the PA has been appropriating lands of the Greek Orthodox Church and building mosques on the formerly Christian land. He said he's aware of several cases in which Christian women were raped and murdered, but the alleged criminals were not arrested. "The Palestinian security forces know who did these crimes. They know where

Muslims blame Israel for church attack, 'intolerance' But outraged Christians say Islamic extremists driving them away March 5, 2006 By Aaron Klein WorldNetDaily.com JERUSALEM – Muslim leaders this weekend led protest rallies against the Jewish state in which they claimed Israel "disrespects other religions' holy sites" and "fuels an atmosphere of intolerance"... Christian leaders here told WND the Muslim protests are "outrageous," pointing out Christians have fled previously Christian-dominated cities such as Nazareth and Bethlehem en masse due to persecution and holy site desecrations by Muslims. ..."It is the Muslims who are leading a campaign against us to the point that most of the Christian population from Bethlehem and Nazareth had to run away." Ghrabi pointed out for years Bethlehem was largely Christian until the Palestinian Authority took control in 1995 and the Christian population drastically dropped from 90 percent

Someone comes along and insists they will not "Miss the Chance" to adopt some new suicidal policy. The PA are Enemies of Israel, the Jewish People and the Free World. The Saudis are Enemies of Israel the Jewish People and the Free World. There is no proper business to be conducted with either of them and nothing will ever be resolved with either of them through "Talk".

Shalom Elias, I like the tone of your piece. At the end of the day those Jews and Arabs who really care about living side by side will find ways to bridge irrational fear and renounce hate mondgering. It both angers and saddens me when I read provacative incitements from either side, but when I read it from a Jew, not that Jews have a higher moral stance, they certainly do not. but as a Jew when one of my family puposefully distorts for some short-term self-satisfying goal, I sometimes think that there is no hope. Thanks for a shot of hope.

... we are talking about the millions of Jews from Arab states who left with only what they had on their backs... There were not millions; the actual figure is hard to pin down as there were no accurate census figures The real tally is speculative. There were population transfers after WW2; India-Pakistan is the most infamous. The Armenian exodus in 1902 has never been redressed. The Cambodian genocide, Biafra, Rwanda the list is shamefully endless. The Jewish-Arab refugees present a similar problem to that of the Palestinians with one important distinction, the Jews had a place to go and that was home in a spiritual sense. The Sephardim have thrived in Isreal, they are not hanging in some sort of limbo like the Palestinians. It is vital that facts and figures are not sloppily bandied about in an inciteful and provocative manner. It hurts the Jewish case that needs to be to be heard by a dispassionate review of the events. Peters book did much harm because of her cooked numbers

the question of israel's 'right' to exist appears to me.The Palestinians have done cartwheels to accomodate israel.And Hamas is now engaging in what has been called an "historic compromise." Khalid Mishal has repeatedly called for Unity(with fatah)he stated recently in Quatar that Hamas has no intention of establishing an islamic emirate,Ahmed Yusuf has eloquently talked about the need for Palestinian self determination,the evolution of civic society,economic development,access to free markets(Washington Post).What is israel waiting for, assuming that this time round it is acting in good faith ?

You were quite correct in your decision not to write a "longer nasty post" because doing so would not advance your position in the least. Insults certainly will not persuade anyone to change their views on anything. That being said, I am not Rip Van Winkle, nor do I resemble him/it in any way. I was so obviously referring to the two-state solution for the Palestinians and Israel, not some farcial and outdated reference to Jordan. The two-state solution, that America favoured; I'm know you must have heard of it. That would be the fairest way forward into the future and the best chance for peace; Jordan does not enter into this scenario. Thank you for writing. Regards

what are the boundaries that israel wants?Biblical dreams of the greater israel stretching from the mediterranean to the euphrates,or a more modest and realistic piece of real estate ?Whatever the conscience of at least some of the talkbackers,we can be pretty sure that this 'right' to exist is a red herring for Olmert & Co.They use it for realpolitik,to postpone a peace deal.In that context I am not sure that even the Feinstein-Lugar resolution to the U.S. senate was wise in repeating that mantra.I doubt if Hamas will yield on all 3 conditions and if theyFeinstein and Co.,if they want a peace deal should drop those meaningless conditions.It's merely delaying the process.Khalid Mishal has said loudly & clearly that they want Unity & that Hamas has no intention of establishing an islamic emirate.Just a Palestinian state,following Basic P.Law.Who then are the fundamentalists today?Answer:israel.I enjoy reading your posts.I see you are at it again with Howdy jeff !Good luck! Regards.

Since Indrajaya hates the US then he is going to leave in Russia, or Iran,are you packing jet? lol

In 78% of Mandated Palestine. Even Arafat who Israelis equated at times as the master terrorist (although Sharon, Begin, and Shamir have more blood on their hands and were members of terrorist militias) accepted Israel in 1988 and accepted a future Palestinian state in Gaza, West Bank, and East Jerusalem with a mutual agreement on refugees. Most Palestinians still would agree to this state if Israel ended the occupation. Remember, this state must be viable and contigious. However, what are we supposed to do, bend over? While the settlement expansion enterprise continues at the fastest rates, which is what Oslo was. It was a way Israel could control the Palestinians indirectly thru the PA. Even the right wing Hamas group accepted that state in exchange for a HUDNA. Not ONCE has Israel accepted any kind of borders for a Palestinian state. And yet, the Palestinians are considered the bloodthirsty savages? THINK AGAIN!

Howdy Lakshmi; Hamas doesn't want the "occupation" alright, but they consider all of the old British Mandate of Palestine (minus Trans-Jordan) to be occupied by Jews (including Israel). Actually, the only portions of the above territory still occupied by Israel are in Areas C in the West Bank but not necessarily all of Areas C because it depends on where the border winds up being. The Gaza Strip and Areas A & B in the West Bank are not currently being occupied by Israel. Those areas are a Palestinian problem exclusively. "Crimes" have been committed by both sides, what do you expect during a war? However, most crimes have been committed by Palestinian terrorists against Israelis and not the other way around.

First off, Qumsiyeh is not a Christian name, it's Muslim. Therefore, this article doesn't fly with realities. Are there occasional skirmishes b/n Christian and Muslim palestinians? Certainly. There are more skirmishes with Muslim vs MuslIM Palestinian over land issues. I as a Christian whose family has lived in this land for 10s of generations have had nothing but respect and mutual friendships with my Muslim brother and sister Palestinians. I as a Christian was never spit on while attending the Holy Sepulcure by Muslims. It was orthodox jews who do it routinely against Christians and Armenians in Jerusalem. We need not go into the fact nor count of how many CHURCHES the Jewish/Zionist militias destroyed in the 40's, all the way to present day. The occupation wall that destroyed Bethelehm is a Jewish imposition. Nor is there a need to remind ignorants that the PA has a higher per capita Christian representation in parliament than all Arab countries, including Lebanon.

MUST BE COMPENSATED. I have on numerous occasions said this.How come the world does not cry foul about this discrepancy.They forget and only think about the "Holocaust" which should not be compared,nor put even on the same par at all. As you say,we are talking about the millions of Jews from Arab states who left with only what they had on their backs(literally nothing but)and lost everything and the question is never raised.A digusting state of affairs,not to mention as an example Egypt who gets billions from the U.S without anything worthy from that country! And yet here we get some respondents reminding us all the billions we get from the U.S which we tell them time after time,that all the help we get from the U.S is spent there and the monnies borrowed is not free. The Egyptians give nothing back,the Jordanians nothing,and I can name others but it would take pages.These lot get,but give nothing worthy in return only Israel does.Good post thank you...

I never realised you were totaly crazed untill I read that little bit of insanity.On which planet are you living?????

Howdy Lakshmi; The issue of the recognition of Israel as a sovereign country has diplomatic consequences under international law (there is no such thing as a "right" to exist anymore than there is a "right of return"--such "rights" are invented out of thin air and have no legal basis whatsoever). The Arabs (except for Egypt and Jordan) have refused to recognize Israel. This is why the 1949 armistice line around the West Bank and the 1950 armistice around the Gaza Strip were temporary ceasefire lines and not permanent borders. Israel at the time wanted them to be borders, but the Arabs refused because that would have meant that they recognized Israel as a sovereign state which they could not legally conquer at a later date. I have heard of no utterance from Hamas which recognizes Israel anywhere; on the contrary, Hamas considers Israel to be "Zionist occupied" Palestine which needs to be "liberated" sooner or later.

I really dig your style!! Regards

Are you still stiking your nose in our buisness?? What happened the dole ran out a little early this month so nothing to do?? Look Labhrat at least have the sense of Honour to invent your your own insults instead of copying Toseftas bitchy stuff. Why dont you go whine on an Arabic newspaper for a while aye??

One never cites ones professional credentials, particulary with respect to an attempt at further bolstering a point founded on anecdotal evidence. Is this how the sociological sciences proceed in arriving at the verification of hypotheses? On second thought, don't bother answering. Instead, please argue with someone else. I am too overwhelmed by your advertized prowess to continue.

Tosefta Since you tend to repeat yourself,I can also do my share of it.I posted one already,not seen the light of day as yet.Patience dear. Tosefta all he writes is in vain It is the result of his brain, His prose is strictly verbose, So,we just turn up our nose! He denigrates good ole' Foxy, Our dear gent from Karkur, We will exercise our proxy, To support him for sure. If you don't like what I say, Then leave us alone and go away! The end is nigh ole...Sport, Just go to blazes...and Abort No amount of Talmud from you, Will compensate it is true. Get your head under the brine, Improve your stature and shine. Failing all this advice friend, Have to find another grand..

G-D is not a man that He should change His mind. The Jewish Bible is forever! G-D's Word NEVER changes and cannot be replaced with other Scriptures! Let men call on G-D earnestly that each may turn from his wicked way and from the violence which is in his hands. Jewish Bible, Jonah 3:8

I notice that once again you don't have an original thought in your head - and that once again you only write letters cheering on those who obviously say what you would like to say but don't have the ability to do. There is no difference between Linda Rivera's Christian zealousness and your and Lakshmi's extreme hatred of anything to do with Israel and your total justification of Arab terror against the State of Israel. I'm glad people like you and Lakshmi are on "the other side".

And you sound like a 70 year old gossip who can't resist eavedropping and then making inane comments about something you understand nothing of. Actually Sullivan sounds like a middle aged fuddy duddy who is meticulously spends ten minutes every morning checking that both socks reach the same height on his legs, even though they are hidden by whatever it is he wears that reaches the ground.

Hello Tadchase, yes it's me (at least I hope so...:). Who did I sound like...??? Freddie Flintstone...???

I believe the Jews rejected Jesus as their saviour - so it must be Christians who believe that. You may believe what you want about who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. HEaven can't be such a nice place if you're going there. As far as I know Judaism does not believe in the afterlife as such, that but all good souls will spend eternity united with God. There is no purgatory with a devil and pitchfork in Judaism - only restoration of the purity the soul possessed before entering the physical world.Judaism does not believe people who are not Jews will automatically go to Hell or that Jews will automatically go to Heaven on the basis of their belonging to the faith. Rather, individual ethical behavior is what is most important. Many traditional Jews believe that Judaism provides the best guide to leading such an ethical life.

However they go, it is still forced deportation...and as such, wrong. Regards

It seems to me that all the Religious Zealots on here support the Zionist cause. Linda Rivera, Maria, Bill and a host of others.They are no better than the "Fanatics" on the opposite side who noticeably never seem to post here.

I have a doctorate in the sociology of religion and I see it somewhat differently from you after many years of studying religion in America. My interest in these issues goes back to my undergraduate days at the University of California at Berkeley, where I took a course on religion in America from Robert Bellah, the most prominent figure in the field of sociology of religion. It would seem to me, as I said, that you need to do a little more research on this issue.

I've seen a video that describes the charter of Hamas, but not Fatah. However, apart from ranting on about Israel, I don't remember them saying anything about their own state.

Hi Lakshmi---Nice post and well put. The problem here with these people is that they demand recognition but refuse to accept even a minimal responsibility for the injustice done to the Palestinian People.How do such people as avihu and Rachel and a host of others on here expect consideration as long as they refuse to offer any.They also use this as a means of distraction and an attempt to embarrass but of course it does not work to any appreciable level. It is best to just ignore them. Regards

including myself, won't hold back peace when the combatants find a way to live with each other's disgruntlements. Ultimately this is not a sport. Peace comes in one of two ways: one--one side overwhelmingly crushes the society of its enemies in the most convincing way--the Allies turned the Axis into rubble; Croatia expelled hundreds of thousands of Serbians etc. Or, the two sides grudgingly, incrementally, step by step by tortuous step decide that tolerance--the elevation of I hate you to I don't like you buddy but I can live with you--beats all out of decades of grinding stalemate pouring of resources into futile attempts to achieve option number one. Peanut galleries baying for blood don't help--particularly when it isn't their own blood they're baying for.

I was going to write a longer nasty post but that thopught better of it. You must be RIP VAN WINKLE and slept through the years 1921-2007. What is a JORDANIAN if not a BALESTINIAN.

you wrote in your post 281 "What do you expect us to do? You wrote in your post 206 "Both you and Secretary Rice are trying to sell us " Have you converted Jeff. Your use of "Us" is becoming more frequent lately. Incidentally "breaking your heart is not appropriate, Jeff. To "Shatter", is probably more suitable. Keep pushing that BS. You should be able to keep the newcomers spellbound for their first two or three visits. Regards

It worked for the BRITISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A blubbering someone wants us to believe that we rae living in NEVERLAND and what is being reported is rubbish.Sir your Arabist take is not unlike your State Department. Suffice it to say that the British killed more, in the name of King and country, more people worlwide that any are people in the world. And Idiots like you have the CHUTZA to criticize Israel and Jews. STICK TO YOUR USELESS BOYCOTTS and lay off LINDA RIVERA. A LIGHT ON THIS FORUM.

Media reports state some 14 030 U.S. supplied weapons to the Iraqi security forces, are 'missing.' Perhaps the missing weapons are being used to take away Condolezza's 'birthing pains of the new Middle East!'

Israel has to align day-to-day tactical concessions with some broader inherent vision of where Israel would like to be vis a vis the Palestinians in some theoretical best-case scenario. In the long run, a plan of de facto totalistic chokepoint/check-point control over the West Bank, including expanding jurisdictional boundaries beyond what existing settlements can actually demographically bear given their natural rate of growth, contradicts the more defensive ground posture inherent in the conceptzia of a security barrier plus adjustments. Sharon's vision of hilltop control of Judea and Samaria well into its interior is not where the military-political psyche of Israel currently finds itself.

1)"Re:recognition of israel`s right to exist,this requires absolving israel of its crimes." Do you mean its crime of self defense against continued Arab attacks over 60 years (long before the occupation)? 2)"Nor will any Resistance group disarm prior to settlement of the dispute" - all previous peace agreements have been conditional to this requirement, and the failure to fulfill it has been the main cause of the failure of these agreements. Israel will not cede land until its security is guaranteed. 2)"give up once and for all its dream of a Greater Israel" - the present government was voted in on its platform of withdrawal from the WB. Israel is no longer in Gaza and wouldn't touch it with a beanpole if not for continued attacks from that hell hole. So it seems to be yu who is having hallucinations about Israel's "dreams". Your land-grab theories are fabrications of your imagination. The Arabs should consider easing all attacks on Israel if they value their land. con't

"My own opinion:the zionist project was an horrible mistake." You are wrong dear, The Zionist project is an unquilified success.

things as for example to the right of refugees to return.That was a condition of their admission to the U.N.But the zionist leadership had no intention of honouring any of this.They knew they could wing it.We know why too.But that may also explain why israel supporters and israel cannot,psychologically speaking trust the Palestinians to honour agreements.

"G-D`s requirement for ALL humanity is KINDNESS:" "Muslims ALREADY HAVE an Arab Palestinian State. In 1922, Britain illegally gave 80% of JEWISH Palestine to Muslims. The area became Jordan, giving Muslims an Arab Palestinian State on JEWISH land." Do you know Linda that the people who argue that the only Palestinian state should be Jordan, mostly want to ethnically cleanse Arabs from Israel? Paul Harris is one example. Because the trouble is that if the West Bank is annexed to Israel, with its Pal population, Jews suddenly become a minority or close to one. Do you want to ethnically cleanse the Pals, Linda? Do you think Jesus would approve?

revelation.I tell you this-there's no such thing as the gospel of philip.there are four gospels in the bible-matthew,mark,luke, and john..........are you sure,you're a christian?God chose poor stuff????read this-But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty[1 corinthians 1:27..........condi rice---she may be intelligent,but when it comes to biblical topics,she's not wise.there are some true christian ladies in the country who are not well-educated,but when it comes to bible, they're very wise.don't you know that if you read the book of revelation you will be blessed,according to the Word of God.what happened to the uk,michael?

They know but they want the whole thing. Read hamas, fatah, etc. charters.

"O daughter of Babylon you destroyer, happy the man who shall repay you the evil you have done us! Happy the man who shall seize and smash your little ones against the rock!" - Psalm 137: 8-9 Shall we go on, sister?

don't you know that God gave abraham lands-from euphrates river to mediterranean sea.and isaac was his heir and not ishmael.these arabs claiming their forefather was the heir,so the british gave 80% of the middle east to them.they said israel belong to them also.

And ye shall drive out the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein; for unto you have I given the land to possess it. ...But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then shall those that ye let remain of them be as thorns in your eyes, and as pricks in your sides, and they shall harass you in the land wherein ye dwell. And it shall come to pass, that as I thought to do unto them so will I do unto you. This lesson is as true for Israel today as it was back then. Those inhabitants who would be 'pricks in your sides" and "harass you" should be driven from the land. Look to the Jewish settlements lost in Sinai, Gaza, at syria harassement talks about Golan, at pals assault talks about Judea and Samaria and ask oneself has this not come to pass? In order to gain time and carry out 2 states solution , the wicked Olmert administration wants now to justify its actions thru attorneys in order to respond to Winograde commission's expectation from Kadima to resign , Kadima OUT , hit the road with pals to Bagdad , Mecca , Teheran ect...

"Those that aren`t happy will be exported in airconditioned transport, probably busses..." I guess that defines 60 years of progress: the nazis used cattlewagons, ben jabber proposes airconditioned transport. So at least we have one item where we can distinguish between an old-fashioned nazi and ben jabber.

oh my....rice is in the middle east again.I hope God won't send another judgment to america again.

G-D's requirement for ALL humanity is KINDNESS: And what does the L-RD require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your G-D. Jewish Bible, Micah 6:8

Howdy Tosefta; So, you're not interested in my opinions anymore? What a shame! A lot more people agree with me than with your aristocentric, terrorist-loving opinions. What do you expect us to do? Capitulate to your "superior" conjectures like the Arabs want Israel to capitulate to the demands of the Arab Ultimatum? No thank you.

israel's right to exist.Why does this question bother you so much?If the Palestinians whom you obviously despise so much can't be trusted(as you say) what good does a piece of paper mean?They can tear it up and attack israel,if they want.So,it seems to me that you are deeply worried not about that scrap of paper but your own conscience. A good sign,indicating that you have one,neverthless generating so much confusion for no good reason.Hamas has said that israel exists,as a concrete fact.Hamas does not want the Occupation,neither do other Palestinians nor the international community.What's the next step? Withdraw from the Occupation. My own opinion:the zionist project was an horrible mistake.But israel now exists.Fait accompli.No Palestinian can be expected to also ease your conscience and your pain by granting an abstract 'right' to exist so that you are once and for all absolved of your crimes against them.They may,in due time,because time heals all.But that can't be coerced.

Its a natural result of rejecting LOVE. Lets repair our wrong thoughts into right thoughts. lets remember that ! Good Night Guys Good Night Israel LETS BUILD FRIENDSHIP BRIDGES. WE DESERVE IT. Love Atilla Liman Karagözoğlu

when you will feel you are out of happness just call me I will be there with my light with my love Atilla by the way ! what you do next sunday :)

in your opinion are the jewish refugees who were expelled from arab countries (no matter where they fled to) entitled to compensation. ? I have not been folowing everything but should Israel accept the return of all arab refugees who wish to. ? As a ben gurion admirer I assume you know what his view on the topic of return were. duncan

Rachel re Yaakov or Avihu re Yaakov. You behave like a 70 year old busybody gossiping over the back fence. How childish. Regards

Heinz it is important to note that any good fiction is well rooted in the semblance of reality. when putting together a good joke it is also important not to bother people with open lines that do not make sense. Thus instead of enjoying the intended joke, the listener is busy trying to figure out the mistakes in the opening line. Thus when you open up the hilarity with; "Anti-semtism really means disliking all who descend from North Africa, right?" Wrong and this is the problem. Those who know that this is not the case, focus on the ignorance rather than the wit. North Africans only became semitic after being conquered and occupied by semitic tribes intent of raping and pillaging half the globe, a sexual thing. Berbers who were the aborigines of the area, are not semites for example. Now try again,...come to think of it...don't! Please. Actually I believe that Livni may be of Russian extraction, Condi looks Ghanayan to me.

"Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin" Daniel interpreted this to mean that Belshazzar`s deeds had been weighed and found wanting and that his kingdom would therefore be divided." Isn't it funny and ironic that you, the Belshazzar, ambassador in spirit of Israel's enemies par excellence, should be lecturing us on morality? Pay attention instead to the fate of those who attempted to divide Israel's kingdom.

Does saying I don't read about or understand "the issue" make your case any stronger? Perhaps it does to you. But, you should understand that beneath the kind words and gestures of the committed Christian evangelist - not the ones who embrace it for its social aspects - lurks the cold and calculating mind of the proselyte. These folks want everyone to convert to Christianity - their brand, of course - but they especially find converting Jews their Numero Uno goal. It makes no difference to them, though, if Jews come to embrace and worship Jesus. Because, bottom line, if they don't, they'll burn in Hell with all of the other damned souls.

thanks. thank you my friend. staying each day of almost two years on the Jew web sites, even me, even a stupid can give a clever looking :) jew sites teach. But thanks. good words are always accepted. take care Love and respect Atilla Liman Karagözoğlu

Sam, LAND FOR PEACE WILL NEVER WORK. Well, Sam, oppression for war is progressing nicely. Peace. Steve

you are not that wrong. I have that cancer idea in my mind, sometimes. Not that much, but I have it. I am working on it. I will get over it. Thank you. You are helping me to see and to question myself. Love and respect. Atilla Liman Karagözoğlu

next you will be saying that inflammble is the opposite of flammable. try using a dictionary for once and you may learn something. duncan

Pre-"67 are actually "49 Armistice Lines..They didn't hold then and won't in the future... The rest of your stuff is just your usual hatred.

Rachel, you ask if the State of Israel has a right to be recognized, Of course it does, but can you share with me the boundaries of this State you would like recognized.On seeing that we can then get on with the business of "Recognition". Regards

Every president in the last twenty years has tried to make the middle east, the Israeli-Arab conflict his ultimate goal. Peace. Just as Clinton brought the foes together in the dying days of his administration, only to be met with Arafat's Al Aqsa dibolical, George Bush is now trying to make his mark. Presidents need their legacies, and Bush somehow feels that he can bring the Arabs and jews together and hammer out a peace agreement. I do not sense that peace is just over the horizon. We all hear the words, the spin, the apologizes and dreams, the only emotion not in abundance is peace, the will for a real peace. I do not need nor want the VENEER OF PEACE, I do not want a lawyers document promising both sides different things, I don't need word games I want and need a real peace. Peace in our times, Chamberlain smiling face, The Paris Talks with Hanoi, millions of Vietnamese take to the seas in search of refuge. There are many examples of bad peace agreements.

Chick, "Jordan is Palestine. Judea & Samaria is Israel. Golan is Israel and Gaza can be discussed.""If Judea & Samaria joined into a federated Jordan-Palestine that would represent approximately 90% of the Mandate. Leaving Gaza out, are Jews to receive 10% of the Maddate and even less is you add subtract Gaza and the Golan ( 1% of the Palestine Mandate illegally transferred to the French). So Arabs get 90%+ and Jews less than 10%. Is that fair by anyone`s estimation?" That is certainly a novel interpretation of the Palestine Mandate. It doesn't resemble any of the text that I have read. Furthermore, whether it is fair or not is not as relevant as the fact that the original Israeli government agreed to it. It must have seemed fair enough at the time. Peace. Steve

If the Jews would have done to the arabs what the arabs admitted they were gong to do to the jews, (genocide) there would not have been an arab refugee problem. The arabs resident in palestine can be grateful at the mercy shown to them by the Jews. duncn

Those that aren't happy will be exported in airconditioned transport, probably busses... It's like working in a job, ain't happy, change jobs..

He never answers awkward questions: I last addressed a message to him about a year ago: after he had given me a list of regimes he condemned he refused to explain why the list contained no Moslem countries. I'm still waiting for my answer.

I am afraid that you took me wrong. I respect those people no matter how much angry I am. No people deserve to called with dirty words. Idiot is good enough. Your last words were too dirty. I would not use that. Atilla Liman Karagözoğlu

Too funny! I was just stating what Christians believe, is not my personal belief. :) I believe all good men (and women) go to heaven, Moses, Mother Teresa AND Gahndi. :)

Paul, If Israel tries to impose the policy of transfer they will lose the support not only of the United States but of the majority of US Jewry. There is not a single president that could support that policy without making the US even more of a world wide pariah than it is. It would also be political suicide and completely imasculate the president's power to effectuate any other policy including domestic. If Israel wants to pursue (and few Jewish people that I know do) they will have to do it on their own and deal with the consequential war crimes tribunals. All of the contributing Ministers can expect to stay for the rest of their lives within the boundaries of Israel Proper. Any foreign excursions are likely to end in the Hague. Peace. Steve

It's the Book of Revelations with an 's' at the end. You both always get things wrong.

The difference between the jews and the palestinians is that the Palestinians were moved from their homeland to create a new homeland for another people, the Jews in the arab lands did not consider that there homeland but rather Israel was their homeland (in their logic), so how are countries going to absorb the Palestinians as jews were obsorbed by Israel when the Palestinians want their homeland back. You would have them live like jews pre-ww2/....not going to happen. There will NEVER be peace in Israel EVER EVER! until this happens. Period. ALthough I do like your "Howdy's" made me smile.

I respect women, very much. I do. They are the angels of our world. with respect Atilla Liman Karagözoğlu

Hi Alicia Are you an angle ? huh ! Yes you are. YES. here in Istanbul, wind started. Little cold outside. but smoking a cigartte while thinking your responce to me in my house balcony! its worth many worlds ! dear. It is. Take care Lady Love and Respect Atilla Liman Karagözoğlu

Israel agrees to principal of Right of Return (it has not!) Israel removes all settlement blocks. (are you kidding me? there are hundreds of roadblocks AS I WRITE THIS, FEW, IF ANY, HAVE BEEN REMOVED) Israel shares Jerusalem. (Since when? Orient House is closed, the PA is not headquartered there, what are you talking about?) Israel destroys seperation wall and dismantles all road blocks (kidding right?) Israel releases PA Tax money held in escrow (IT HAS NOT!) Israel releases all political prisoners

Tosefta, YOu may be right about Bush's inability to accomplish anything that requires any degree of diplomatic sophistication. I have more confidence in Rice than I do in Bush. However there is always the option of dragging out the negotiations until a more capable figure occupies the white house. The problem is that most presidents make their worst mistakes in their first two years. This would be a bad time for a new president's first catastrophic mistake. Peace. Steve

How can there be peace with Hamas if Abbas has no control over Hamas? Sounds like another deal where Israel gives away land and the rocket squads move further into Israeli territory. STUPIDITY

Many Ashkenazi Jews have mixed Judean and European ancestry. Considering that this is the genepool that exists, for 1800 years, many of us look European.

The Arab supporters of "there will be, nor will we participate or even discuss peace until there is a Palastinian state, period! end of sentence!" seem firm and consistent with their demands. The Israelis are adamant about their position of "as long as terrorism is prevalent and the terrorists are not disarmed, we will not go along with helping form a Pal. state." Now, who really wants peace and who only wants a state?

Yaakov Sullivan has already said that he is a citizen of Israel. You must have missed it.

Bush vs. Nixon, who will be worst?, you ask. A good question...in terms of approval ratings, they are evenly matched now. The only difference was that at the time Nixon received those dismal ratings, he was about to be impeached. Bush deserves the same. Regards

Oh Yes! Of course, do. Afterall the PA and it's ruler du jour have displayed such a marvelous ability to control hostile elements within their purview, and are responsible for having stopped the rain of Kassams. Why, I am very positive that they will bring peace and mutual respect to the troubled area. Give them guns and cold hard cash I say. Nothing like it. (Please consider making a donation. My sarcasm control is stuck in the maximum position and I cannot afford repairs without your help)

Anti-semtism really means disliking all who descend from North Africa, right? Including descendants of Roman and Constantinople soldiers, Vandals, and who knows what else. Maybe Condi is a Southern Semite... Livni just looks Polish to me.

Everything I had to say to you on this subject I said before. Sorry if you pretend to be blockheaded and do not hear or understand. I am not going to deal with you on anything but facts known to every reasonable person. No evaluations, no predictions, no estimates. I have no interest in anything you would say on these, or in you hearing what I say. P.S. See another message to you in post #66 in the next "US endorses" forum.

Israel agrees to principal of Right of Return. Israel removes all settlement blocks. Israel shares Jerusalem. Israel destroys seperation wall and dismantles all road blocks Israel releases PA Tax money held in escrow Israel releases all political prisoners What does Israel get? Grudging recognition (Arabs stop using terms so-called Israel and Zionist Entity) and defacto non-belligerency cold peace from so-called Arab countries Saudi Arabia, Syria and Lebanon? And yes then there will still be Hamas in Gaza and the Party of God in Lebanon. The good news: Coca Cola is sold in Saudia Arabia for the first time.

If Israel can live in peace $20 billion is a bargain. Oh and the US is selling the weapons to SA not gifting them.

Somehow this whole debate seems to have lost any confidence in a solution. Some paranoid massages from both Jews and Arabs in this column, but even those seem to have lost energy and authenticity. It all feels like a boxing match were both boxers are simply worn out. An end without a solution. How intesely sad this all is. Hhalom and Salaam.

I'm not being racist I want what is historically mine or at least part of it. We won a defensive war in 1967,Remember? We want what the USSr got from Poland and Germany and what France got from Germany and what Germany got from France in 1870, and what the US got from Mexico. When it comes to Jews, they have to have a 'token state', and suddenly the aqusition of territories as a result of war is 'inadmissable'. We are here because our frefathers were here. The demographic changes that George Bush promised Ariel Sharon will reflect the final peace settlement and part of Judea and Samaria, will remain as part of Israel.

popes reverse previous popes. eg vatican 2 I suspect that barak was reversing shamgar in regard to whether there was an occupation. A future high court may well reverse barak and support shwebel, rostow , stone and other legal experts. (especially if the international community is forced to adopt the position that while a palestinian state may be desirable it is not feasible. My assessment based upon currrent palestinian terror trends is that this should take place within 1-3 years) duncan

"You are right in advising Nick to forgoe the revelations.I know it well,and it was written by John in the isle of Patmos,and the only one who survived and did not get murdered by the Romans" It was written by a John, but not the disciple John, who did indeed live to a very ripe old age, and was the only one who didn't die a martyr's death. Christian tradition says that John, in extreme old age, was always being asked how to attain salvation. Finally, he would only say "Love one another. That is enough.".

Fox hello Tosefta is Syria's bum. He always pursues and hums, To mitigate his performance, He agitates this ad-noseum. Leave the silly man alone, He will in time perhaps atone. But,we can wait till eternity, For him to uphold with serenity. I get tired of his constant waffle, Pertaining to Syria's triffle. He is avid for attention, And craves it dire detention. Blasted Tossifeta for sure, He is thoughtless and not pure. I'd wish he'd go away to Syria, Leave Israel to Elesion Kyria. I have run out of words Foxy, Will finish as your "proxy" Adios and au-revoir for now, Till we meet next time somehow....

"Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin" Daniel interpreted this to mean that Belshazzar's deeds had been weighed and found wanting and that his kingdom would therefore be divided. You'll just have to hope, Kath, that Israel's catalogue of cruelties and crimes against the innocent and the powerless does not earn it a similar fate.

Hi Clickfool,I thought the other line was more telling. "Livni said that Israel also recognized that this was a propitious time for peace efforts, which it aimed to exploit." Regards

The idea that folk who do not become Christians cannot go to Heaven is incompatible with the notion of a God of Love. I believe good men of every religion are welcomed, and even atheists and agnostics who deal with their fellow man with love and compassion.

Its always a pleasure hearing your insightful comments and how you stay on message. I'm delighted to hear that you too appreciate the pitfalls of zionism.

It wants, in short, TOO MUCH. ... un 242 LEGALISED as part of sovereign Israel the territorial gains it made in 47 49, which until then was covered by an armistice agreement. It was certainly not part of soverign Israel. This is support for Israel's view that west bank land used for aggression might not be given back. So Israel might not be sking for too much after all. duncan

Olmert was conned. Olmert and Barak are keeping this news quiet so they can make more one sided concessions

According to Yaakov all of Israel is occupied Palestine and you are a settler too living on stolen arab lands.he is an anti zionist who tries to push his dezionization program under the smoke and mirrors of progressive politics.Did you note the patronising tone and avoidance of your points in his response.Yes he is another "King of the Jews".See his apologies for the nasserite regime on the other threads.Regards

If you could continue our discussion I would appreciate it. duncan

"yaakov" fancies himself our savior, trying to save us from Zionism and "evil jewish nationalism"."Yaakov" knows whats best ALWAYS, he is a well known apologist for racists and anti semites.Their is no reasoning with him.

""There is a Palestinian government which meets the requirements of the international community, a government that believes in the vision of the two states, a government that shows determination to change the situation and Israel is not going to miss this opportunity," she said." This is more baloney. This time from Livni. Is Israel prepared to evacuate the main settlement blocs to the East of Jerusalem? Of course not. What will Israel offer? The evacuation of a few isolated nothing settlements, impossible to defend? The easing of a few roadblocks? The return of the stolen tax receipts? A few more prisoners released? And what's it expecting in return? Recognition? A declaration from Fatah that the resistance to Israeli land theft is over? And if they get such acquiescence from their Uncle Tom and his "cabinet" of unelected toadies, what then? Will peace descend over the Land of Israel? Of course not. Hamas remains.

Howdy Mann; 3) do not guarantee a mythological "right of return", and 4) say nothing about their descendants (except possibly as heirs). Israel has already done her bit to absorb most of the Jewish refugees who were expelled from Arab countries where they and their descendants now have full citizenship (some of them were absorbed by Western countries too). With the exception of Jordan, the Arab countries have refused to grant citizenship to the Palestinian refugees (including their descendants who were born within their borders). You cannot hold Israel responsible for Islamic brotherhood.

Somebody described the 19th century Balkans as an area that produced more history than it could digest. The Middle East seems like a region that produces more religion than it can digest.

I wouldn't claim to know much about Christian Zionism, but my understanding is that part of the reason large numbers of US evangelicals are so keen on supporting Israel and its occupation of the West Bank is their belief, derived from Revelation that the second coming will only happen once the Jews are back in the Holy Land (all of it?). So if Revelation is questioned by many Christians, it's hard to understand how this belief could become so central to many people's Christianity and help dictate US foreign policy in the Middle East.

Glad to hear you were in Dubai taking advantage of the waves in the Persian Gulf. Guess that puts to rest the myth that Dubai doesnt allow Jews entry. Thanks for that clarification. I'm clueless? Really? No, you protesteth too much. That security concerns would be a part of any negotiated peace settlement goes without saying. Of course Israel's legitmate securty concersn must be met. But your intention here is to distort my words and meaning. What I do not accept is Israel using security as aan excuse, a ploy to get out of meeting any of its comittments-whether it is removing illegal outposts as it said it would, using US made cluster bombs against civilians in S.Lebanon. Yes, I used the term "jackbooting" when referring to the occupational forces in OT. Loaded term I admit, but talk to the resients there and the word, Michael, will become clear to you. It can be used equally for Jews or non-Jews who have been occupiers for 40 yrs. Thansk for your thoughts.

One crazy post claims that "The Arab Ultimatum (a.k.a the Saudi Initiative) is a list of non-negotiable demands". Nothing could be further from the truth. What a shame that some people can totally distort the Saudi Initiative, which is anything BUT a "SUGGESTED" starting point: clearly NOT A DEMAND. It simply serves to reinforce the negative stereotype that many people have of Israelis and their clinically hysterical supporters.

Howdy Man; Actually, there were thousands of Jews who did own property and who were forcibly expelled from the Gaza Strip, Judea, Samaria, and East Jerusalem by the invading Egyptian and Jordanian Armies in 1948. I do agree with you that compensation for Jewish and Palestinian refugees should be treated separately in theory according to country. However, not when the Arab League as a whole is getting itself involved in the refugee problem. That external meddling justifies Israel to demand that compensation to both sets of refugees be conducted on a 1-to-1, pairwise, reciprocal basis. Otherwise, the Palestinian refugees will be compensated by Israel for their property losses, but the Jewish refugees won't be by the various Arab countries. I'm afraid that you will find that all UN resolutions which refer to refugees (including UNGAR 194 and UNSCR 242) 1) do not distinguish between Jewish and Palestinian refugees, 2) do not single out one country as being solely responsible for the mes

since I was 12 years old. But I also recognize that Israel entered the territories in a defensive war, and for strategic reasons should not exit them until we, Isrelis, are assured that our Arab neighbors will not use the territories once again to attack us in order to destroy Israel, as they have done several times in our short history. As you see, you and I may have some differences of opinion, may be because you don't live here and don't understand what life in Israel is like. But I do have a fundamental question which is whether or not you even accept the right of our state, Israel, to exist. You have insulted others instead of responding to this question. Please, don't insult me, just respond sincerely.

Never, ever, forget this! Jesus might save, but Moses invests!!