Peres' aides confirm plan for PA state on land equal to 100% of West Bank

JORDEN: You missed the first mandate of 1922, that was given to Britain. The mandate clearly specify 'Palesine Trans-Jordan'. Please see my post No.38# under Amira Hass article "Hebron Tactic. It is more than clear that Jorden is Palestine. The entire facts are well documented and not subject to any doubts. I wish you can re-examine yourself and correct your post 398. Otherwise your post is only half the truth. Thanks.

JORDAN: a tribal society became fully independent from the British Mandate in 1946. "Jordanian identity underlines the significnt and fundamental common denominators that make it inclusive of Palestinian identity; particularly in view of the shared historic, social and political development of the people on both sides of the Jordan(the river). The Jordanian gov. in view of the historical and political relationship with the WB underlined by the Unity Agreement betw. the two Banks in 1950 granted all Pal-refugees on her territory full citizenship rights, while protecting and upholding their pol. rights, as Palestinians' right of return or compensation". Source: jewishvirtuallibrary.org It is very likely that the future PA in the WB will be annexed to Jordan, since they are one and the same nation.

"impassionately" to the point: there were swamps, cholera, sand and rocks, which the Jewish pioneers turned into a garden of Eden as they arrived. They made the desert bloom. I referred to this condition of the barren land as "wasteland". I was not referring to the population mixture of the cities in Palestine those days.

You are accusing me of your own prejudices, for I have not talked about land-theft nor about the Pals' "genocide"! I was stressing the "Truth and Justice", which man cannot mold to his liking, though he may distort them to his temporary advantage. IF we return to the square one, where the fundamental Truth and Justice are to be discovered, indeed Israel is the rightful owner of the Land. The Land that also is called the Promised Land, because it was promised by G-D Himself to His people Israel. After 2000 years the Jews returned to this, their Land as predicted and promised by G-D. With the consent of the UN (the World!). The Israelis need not worry about the future, because G-D is in control. Therefore Israel can afford giving away his Land so that another people may have their state too. BUT this does not guarantee that the situation will remain permanent for all times, because as I said: G-D is in charge: everything has its time, G-D's timing, not man's.

388 Johnboy's disinformation re water resources: Before 1967 Israel followed the status quo from the time of the British Mandate in Palestine and the French one in Syria. This status was clarified by the internationally accepted 1953 Laudermilk plan. Syria reneged on this and repeatedly tried to divert water from the Jordan River till 67. It was accompanied by Syria's continuing shelling of Israel, in violation of the 1949 UN brokered armistice agreements. Syria also attacked Israel in June 1967 (not vice versa, in spite of Johnboy?s frequent claims).

if you could respond to #261 I would appreciate it Thank you duncan

citizens.If the worst comes to the worst,all of you who came from Russia &Europe&America can return from whence you came.The .... so now you call for the ethnic cleansing of jews of europen origin. the last time the palestininans tried that in 48. It ended up in the palestinians fleeing their home. do they want to repaet the same experiment with the same result. fools if they do. duncan

After 1967 Israel didn`t need to worry about what the Syrians did or said, and could ramp up Israeli water usage. ... before '67 Syria used to regularly call for Isarel to be pushed into the sea. after '67 when Israel out a spoke in their wheel they are more circumspect. now they wnat to go back to the good old dys and get Israel to go back to the '67 borders. duncan

the league mandate in effect called for a jewish state. "Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country; "

The Israeli government has no mandate to make any decisions on behalf of the people of Israel.The Prime Minister is unelected,has been under suspicion of irregularities in connection with appartments and showed incompetence during the war.Before any major decisions are taken there must be elections and thereafter there should be a referendum if there are to be further transfers of land.

WHO has all the cards on its side? [Israel] WHO has been winning all the wars which have been fought to annihilate and destroy it? [Israel] WHO still has that same goal? [Arabs]WHO is the sworn enemy of the Jewish State? and WHO uses false propaganda to arouse violent hate and suspicion against a little country wanting to survive? [Arabs] WHO are the two main Protagonists in this Play who believe they are fighting for the land of Israel who should be disqualified immediately? NONE but the two persons of abnormaly weak intellect, a Loser of a Prime Minister namely Olmert and his counterpart the President Peres, an olderly man ready for the Rocking Chair and a good 'ole snooze. These two people must not be heeded for they do not speak for their Country Israel.

PH: "THE LAND IS ALL ISRAEL" Nope. That's just you and your fantasies. PH: "1922 MANDATE" Promised the Jews nothing more than that they could come to Palestine and gain the citizenship that would enable them to benefit fully from the nation-building that Britain would undertake. But Britain always retained the right to define the nature of the eventual state(s) - not the Jews. PH: "WATER IS USED FROM ALL SOURCES HOW DO YOU THINK THE KINNERET FILLS ??" Well, prior to 1967 it filled because Israel invariably bombed into teeny-tiny bits any and all Syrian water-diversion works. All the while, of course, Israel was building her OWN water-diversion works for her OWN purposes. After 1967 Israel didn't need to worry about what the Syrians did or said, and could ramp up Israeli water usage. Which is why the Kinneret doesn't fill any more.... or haven't you noticed?

Paul Harris you are right. Please never call it Jordan. According to the mandate of 1922 it was call 'Palestine Trans Jordan'. Before the ink dry it was changed into 'The Ha Shemite Kingdom of Trans Jordan'. The Palestinians wants to have the cake and eat it. No body can. If Olmert and the left wants it that why,fine they can move with their pals. And good ridden. Israel suffer from them for long enough. PS the pictures in Hebron yesterday made one cry. Olmert must have a dialouge with the people not drug them from their homes for hundred of years. Why he don't do that for the Palestinians in Jerusalem. Jews must go, Palestinians can stay !!! A governments of Nuts.

It doesn't mean the FACTS are in error, it simply means that the views expressed are *OPINIONS*, and the disclaiming is pointing out to the readers that they should be seen as such. After all, people like YOU are proof of how gullible some people are, and how unquestioning they can be when fed propaganda to reinforce their prejudices. The views are those of the author. The author does not pretend that he is speaking on BEHALF of the United Nations, nor did I anywhere imply that he did. Go here: http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/unupbks-alm.html and browse through ALL of the freely-available UN Press Books, and you'll see a similar disclaimer on the front of almost all of them. Really, PETER SM, you begger belief sometimes; are you REALLY trying to say that because the UN puts a disclaimer in front of its publications that those publications are, therefore and inevitably, nothing but propaganda lies!?!?!??

and the 'Two' are..... the Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and the President Shimon Peres. Is it not time that the people of Israel wake up before those who fought and died for their Homeland will haunt them forever? Giving away land to a people whose Sworn Covenant is the Destruction of a their Homeland is the most devastatingly foolish step anyone could make. Good thing these agreements are not Final and that there might even be a War to save them from becoming the 'Last Word'.

There is no value for large house with great view when the people live inside it always have bloody fight and hurting each other everyday. The people and their peaceful life inside this house create the real value of this house. Thus, land for global peace with all Arab countries, can you imagin Israel with all its Technology live in peace with Arab and their market value. Please TAKE A MINUTE AND JUST IMAGIN. Dr. Julian G. Darwish President of JAAPA Jewish & Arab Americans Peace Association Los Angeles, CA.

374Lakshmi: Jews living in Hebron for 4000 yrs should move out from so called Palestinian Land? From houses they have owned for hundreds or more years? Are you also for all Palestinians moving out of Israeli land? All million of them? The Logic of a propagandist will never contribute to peace. But you as spokesman of Hamas don't want peace; only a Hudna till you get stronger.

THE LAND IS ALL ISRAEL 1922 MANDATE WATER IS USED FROM ALL SOURCES HOW DO YOU THINK THE KINNERET FILLS ??

"The views expressed in this publication are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of the United Nations University. The designations employed and the presentation of the material do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of the United Nations University concerning the legal status of any country, territory, or area or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers or boundaries. Mention of the names of firms or commercial products does not imply endorsement by the United Nations University". Strong stuff eh?A study not endorsed by the University,full of disclaimers,is proof positive? Is that the level of "evidence" you use elsewhere? Typical Johnboy "proof".Typical Johnboy. Hopefully none of my taxes support "work" of this calibre.

Lebanon and Jordan. The Arabs have incredibly large areas of land and untold billions. If the Arabs want a Palestinian state they must shape up. Jihadist rule in Palestine and the world is ill fated.

TL: "And if they (Israel) had not `stole` the water in 1967, they would be living in refugee camps, attacking prosperous state of Palestine, right?" Straw Man argument. TL: "Actually, 1967 & after `stolen` water had been used to fill the settlers` swimming pools." Care to itemize the water usage of the State of Israel since 1967, TonyL, and tell me exactly where the megalitres from the WB aquifer goes? TL: "Please find me an excuse on how Israel made fertile lands out of the desert before 1967." Why, Israel was stealing it from the Syrians or from the Jordanians. http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/80858e/80858E0m.htm Oh, sorry, YOU thought all of the border clashes 49-67 were caused by those dastartly Syrians and those wicked Jordanians attacking the angelic, innocent Israelis for no reason at all except, of course, that they are dastardly and wicked?

Land swap. Maybe desert for the aquifers? That will not fly. Equal aquifers to those occupied. I have a solution for settlers who do not want to leave the settlements that will be part of Palestine. Let them stay. They will become Jewish Palestinians just like the Arab Israelis that live in Israel. There is no need to move them if they do not want to move. Simple. They then have to be accountable under Palestinian law for crimes committed while protected by the Israeli Army and have to pay for land they are living on. Reall simple, isn't it???

israeli arabs who are loyal to democratic humanism and mass rescue of people threatened with genocide must be allowed dual citizenship .

you say it is difficult & painful to move the settlers and in the next breath you say populations were moved!Indian& Pakistani.An entirely different situation anyway.Besides,it is not just the past settlements but the ongoing ones which israel is undertaking quite cynically while stalling on negotiating on the Arab Initiative.Dramatic increases of illegal settlements between Jan,2003-June 2006.5.8%growth by Jan,2007 as compared to 1.4%in 2004.Sorry my heart does not bleed for the settlers who have made the Palestinians' lives a nightmare,throwing garbage into their houses, attacking school children,abusing them at every turn,uprooting olive trees,burning farm land,even torching a mosque.Even as we speak they are attacking Palestians in Hebron .In East J,Palestinians arebeing driven out to build housing units for french & american jews.And so it goes.Dismantling the settlements is a must,no matter how painful.Because they are built on Palestinian land.Withdraw from ALL occupied territor

You are one of the few here who gets the point and sees the big picture.Must be all that fresh air up in Idaho?? Regards Buddy!!

Arent you the one who said that Samson was just like the hamas suicide bombers??Write soon.

Having training done by Jordan might well work. But there may be an issue there. The Jordanians are also training Iraqi police. Something is missing in the training. Maybe its the "protect and serve" element?

you are correct that canada has nothing to do with taxes for the settlements. my error, us should be read as US united states. as for maalot, i probably recall it better than you. my recollection is that the murderers were part of the PFLP and were based in lebanon and correct me if i am wrong, came in by sea.they were not from the territories. maybe the settlers and rabbis should have settled in lebanon or the mediterranean sea to protect israel from terrorists. otherwise we are on the same wavelength, we want a jewish democratic state, for all jews, secular and religious living in peace with its neighbors. the settler enterprise is preventing this from becoming a reality. if you do not think this is possible you are saying the zionist dream will eventually fail. conflict with 100's of millions of arabs and muslims will eventually be the end of the state of israel. not now or in 10 years, but think 50 to a 100 years ahead.

Have you considered that Hannah may be like Eve from the movie, The Three Faces of Eve? If there were two separate Hannahs, you would think they would wan to distinguish themselves. But alas, she cannot. She must all be the same Hannah.

You can 'give' or 'cede' but should never expect to receive the same value back... Very shrewd business tactics... Let's hope that geological,engineering, hydrology and a lot of other international experts are consulted whose expertise lies in land and land management etc. before that goes further. Without this, even the idea is opprobrious... Leaving the Occupied Territories would be the noblest action by far.

Smart of you to get a jump on things - just in case there really is an end to the occupation (god willing) I see you are testing out new ways of spewing out your venom against the Jews of Israel, that has nothing to do with occupation. Good start.

Hannah. Don't worry. Post under your own name. We know which Hannah you are. Your posts are superb.

I'd hazard a guess that many of the panic stricken have become comfortable with the status quo. They have a "perfect" solution in their mind and fear anything else. The unachievable perfect should not become the enemy of the achievable good or even the merely adequate. Regards.

I'm pleased to see that at least two New Yorkers can discuss this without lots of name calling. But you both are nearly unique New Yorkers, at least for today. Almost everybody else seems to be screaming. Yaakov, I think David has interpreted this correctly as far as the proposal goes. If the principle is accepted, then the hard bargaining starts. One hangup lots of posters seem to have is the water issue. This can be solved easily, but not cheaply. The EU is already purported to have bought a delasination plant which is ready to deliver to Gaza once conditions permit. For what the US is spending in Iraq in one month, the entire coastline from Haifa to Rafah could be lined with desal plants making enough potable water to turn the desert into a jungle, if necessary to get a deal that works. Quality of land may be an issue, but water is a soluable issue.

For the bottom line on this story, which so many well meaning people welcomed, see the demands made by Barak in another article in Haretz. Those demands are in no way connected to the situation between Israel and the Palestinians. They are also impossible to meet given current technology. The "Barak" demands make it very clear that the Olmert government has absolutely no intent to make peace with Abbas and Palestine. Mr. Abbas and Mr. Fayad had better start planning their escape. They have been hung out to dry, or more correctly, die.

Control over Gaza was passed unilaterally and was a mistake when done in that fashion. We both know it won't be passed back. This particular "principles" proposal has some merit and should be one of the bases for negotiation. As to weapons and money, I don't know. I haven't seen any proposal on those issues. But I'll make some observasions about weapons. Lebanon is weak militarily and cannot control its own territory. Egypt and Jordan are relatively strong militarily and can control their own territories. Strong governments tend to have relatively strong militaries, even in benign environments like Europe.

THER IS ONLY ONE VIABLE SOLUTION ALL ARABS TO JORDAN

Unfortunately, there will be no "peace." The Islamics are irredentist in their demands. Israel's only avail and only succor is military might. The Arabs want to destroy Israel, and they patiently bide their time. An agreement with one faction is merely a prelude to belligerent action by another. The Islamics practice Hudna. The convoluted Byzantine Middle East is one in which devious means are used to accomplish one's purposes. The Islamic purpose as instilled in them by now three generations of indoctirnation in madrassas, is imposing sharia worldwide. The West will not accept the proclamations and actions by the Islamics as being "real," as these are so contrary to their own value system as to be unbelievable to them. It projects its own system of thought on others, and confuses that with the reality. Israel is in mortal peril. These concessions only make it more physically vulnerable and are based on the fallacious assumption that Arab policy cannot revert to enmity and conflict

one from a country that has been around for thousands of years in the same place,has seen invaders come and go,has seen Occupiers come and go etc.The historic entitlement which is at the back of all your minds won't fly.Try the fait accompli argument:israel is here.The international community may take that seriously.For that,israel has to stop playing games.The Arab Initiative says withdraw from ALL occupied territory.No ifs& buts,the settlements are difficult to dismantle etc.etc.There is,ofcourse, the alternative of the one state of all all citizens.If the worst comes to the worst,all of you who came from Russia &Europe&America can return from whence you came.The indigenousjews can stay on.World jewry is still wealthy enough to absorb the returnees.You already have a network of israel supporters who will set you up.I am serious when I say that the zionist project which started in the 19th century was an ill fated one.But if israel in its present status is to continue it must shape up

More stupidity, different day. Of course, since Iran has offered to "share" its nuclear tech with Indonesia you would feel somewhat cuddly with them.

Have Jordanians train them.

WRONG! "BUT YOU CANNOT FOOL ALL OF THE PEOPLE ALL THE TIME". Israel/Zionists HAVE fooled all of the "people" all of the time. (All the people who matter to them - Americans. NOT because they actually like the Americans but because the USA supplies them with cash and "surplus" US weapons etc.) So you think that Arabs/Muslims are attacking the west. Could it be possible that we have lots of "Lavone Affairs" happening in the West. That was ONE time when the Israelis DIDN'T manage to "fool all of the people".

The only thing that is turning Arabs towards Hamas & AQ, (will be even more turning if headed that way) if the naqba is not fully satisfied, regardless of what Israel cedes. More so, not only Arabs but many Arab appologiests brainwashed into Arab naqba cause & the restoration of `justice`, if the posts here are any indication. So what is new, they make their own bed. And as far as no deal is better, it did not become better once already.

Memriblog.com has an article by a Muslim concerning that very topic. Just as Nasrallah calls the Lebanese war with Israel a "victory". As the Arab journalist said, 1200 people dead, billions of dollars in losses to infrastructure, the loss of millions in income is NOT a victory. Facing the truth and their defeats is not at the top of the list.

a maybe an hour ago.Here there's talk about temporary borders,and then the final status will be decided.A charade,if only because the key player is not going to accept abbas' games.When Hamas said they would defer to abbas earlier on it was because of the Arab Initiative which calls for withdrawal for ALL territories,no conditions attached.Re: disconnected enclaves,that is the reality.The approximately 10 enclaves now considerably shrunk because the expanding settlements & the Wall,are linked by circuitous dirt roads and confining tunells that effectiviely make travel from one place to another difficult.Hence isolation.The settlemenst on the other hand are connected to themselves & israel with bypass roads.Since israel wants the best land in the west bank and the water resources it adds to a disengagement plan rather than a sovereign state.For details on israel's theft of water see Marwan Barghouti's report to Emory University official,in Maan News,Aug.4,2007.www.Maannews.net/en

Hello Jeff, Sorry to see your posts gobled. I have too preached anything that realistically separates the two & assures Israel of her own control, regardless from what will go on in the Arab world or who from the circle of `friends` becomes a sudden enemy or has a new set of demands or else. Perhaps if separated for a while, some things will normalize, I do not think it is feasible today with the generations of brainwashed into hate. I do not know much about agriculture. But I do know this, in our day & age so much is possible. For god sake, 50 years ago Soviets were dynamiting tunnels in frozen tundra, turning major rivers up side down to build hydro-electric stations, forced tropics in the snow-anything to show off the West in `I can do better`. The lunatic bravado without thought killed the ecology for ages in major parts of Russia, but that is the different story. The point is the `stolen` water is too lame of am excuse to cover up Pal situation due to Arabs witch hunt of Israel.

"Olmert can give up nothing without the excuse that the US demands it. Abbas can give up nothing without confirming the worst and most conspiratorial of suspicions. Where is the room either would need to negotiate anything?" - Mark L Mark, while Condi Rice said publicly that the US endoreses the Saudi Plan (including '67 borders), Bush did not say it and I am not sure he will. Olmert may not get such an excuse. Abbas is weak, and seems to follow Israel and the US so closely that he might get discredited by Hamas. Hamas may object to the deal he signs, and even undermine it. The best thing, objectively speaking, would be for Abbas and Hamas to reconcile and get Hamas to approve the '67 deal (which they were on the way of doing within the Unity Government). He is prevented from doing so by two mindless ideologues, Bush and Olmert. In any case, I find it hard to believe that Olmert has accepted the Peres Plan. Peres wants his baby to see the light of day, but I'm not sure it will happen

arabs occupation undermines jewish State Sovereignty , Destiny , arabs occupation drain a great deal of time and resources and have soldiers miss training exercise , end arabs occupation , deport arabs , transfer arabs , thrown in that exodus , Peres , Olmert , Livni , Barak , Beilin , Gal-On , Pines-Paz , Weissglass Bring Kadima down ,

Margie Why encourage that Johnboy!You can find some oasis in the deserts of Saudi Arabia! It means SQUAT!Cannot even feed an ant! Don't give him too much credit,sakes! Already has too high opinion of himself! I never read his posts, Knowing how hateful he'd be, Demented is he and just lost. Better leave him to spew and spit, Hell get nothing not even the gist He will get low and will squirm. Will satisfy him in my reply in turn! Now we have sorted this out, I'll say layla tov,over and out...

It really is not difficult to know which Hannah is which. The one full of hate is an Arab, a male, and he wants Israel destroyed. The Israeli Hannah sounds Jewish, and Israeli, and fight him on his turf. Regards, Cipora

Hey Dumbite, you want to come play with me? I have lots of plastic bones and lots of other toys too. Got them as presents from Master George and his friends. We can also play `make believe` together. Thanks for telling everyone that I did a great job as top dog in Britain. I`ll tell you a secret; that Iraq invasion was a terrible mistake in spite of what you think, and because of that my Labor party actually forced me out office, but please don`t tell anybody I am admitting it. And that peace in Ireland? Poor George Mitchell had to work like a dog to bring it about, but I got the glory, because I am always a GOOD dog. Come over, Dumbite. We can play together, we will be friends. You are also a good dog; just don`t bark so much or my master George will tell his Vice to shoot you in the face. I only have one concern about you, Dumbite; are you comprehension-challenged? Why do you say: "You know the one where you try to get Cheney to shoot me". I am trying to warn you not to bark too loudly so that Vice should NOT shoot you, and you think that I want you shot? Well, never mind. Even if you are not the smartest dog on the block we can still play together. I play with Master George so I can play with you too. When are you coming over, Dumbite?

You can always dream. It costs nothing. How many Arabs were slaghtered by your various Muslim brethren in Iraq today?

The name of the nation being changed to the Republic of Tel Aviv because Olmert is giving away everything else should be voted on.

I agre, totally, with Marcus. Leaders of palestian are not interesed in a new state, but in maintaining the statu-quo. Terrorism pays

Who stole the water to make tht land fertile, and who did they steal it off? I doubt the Pals will be strong enough to seize it off Israel in the way that Israel has been stealing the water off them since 1967... And if they (Israel) had not `stole` the water in 1967, they would be living in refugee camps, attacking prosperous state of Palestine, right? Excuses, excuses. Actually, 1967 & after `stolen` water had been used to fill the settlers` swimming pools. I thought you new that. Please find me an excuse on how Israel made fertile lands out of the desert before 1967. According to naqba, must have been with the water `stolen` in 1948 reserves.

I don't think "disconnected enclaves" is what the Israelis are proposing. They know that wouldn't work. You are probably aware that there has been past negotiation about land swaps. I think the 5% that Israel wants to keep are the large settlements that lie on the green line like Maleh Adumim. It is also politically pragmatic. I think it would be difficult for any Israeli PM to give up the large population centers and keep his job. But there is political pragmatism on the Palestinian side also. A contiguous state is essential - for example I do think Israel will have to give up the Jordan River Valley. I share your caution about Jerusalem, it is a much more difficult issue. Anyway I think this is the "framework" that can lead to "final status" negotiations.

Three quarters of US military aid to Israel has to be spent on US weapons in the US. Furthermore, the military cooperation between Israel and the US has led to joint developments of weapons systems. Furthermore, the wars that Israel had fought weakened the former USSR in the region, and had allowed US weapons to be tested against weapons of that main supplier to the Arabs. Israel has paid for this alliance in blood. The 1973 war against Russian made missiles led to the development of American stealth warplanes. Israel smuggled out the only Mig fighter from Iraq, and allowed the US to have all the technology involved.

Maybe an arab hooked up some wires to peres' tuchas and is sending electrical impulses to his brain? And surely B'tzelem is overjoyed at the prospect of justice for the palis-I just wonder how excited they will be if the palis succeed in their ultimate goal of annihilating the Jews?

Howdy Johnboy; You asked, "Who stole the water to make tht land fertile, and who did they steal it off?" From 1880 to 1917, the Jews "stole" the water from the Ottoman Turks; from 1917 to 1948, the Jews "stole" the water from the British Crown; from 1948 to 1967, the Jews "stole" the water from the state of Israel; and from 1967 to the present, the Jews "stole" some of the water from God. What else would you like to know? I used to live in Big Oak Valley and we used to pay $120/yr. to the Nevada County Irrigation District for 2 miner's inches of water for the six months of the dry season 24/7 (a miner's inch is 1.5 cubic feet of water per minute). That's one-hell-of-a-lot of water. I figured it out once, but it amounts to tens of millions of gallons of water per year. The water came from the Yuba River which comes from the Sierra Nevada Mountains which are primarily in the State of Nevada. You don't have a clue about water rights and laws which are very complicated.

thread) said that even if it takes Palestinians a whole day to go from point to point,it's okay,if they are clean they'll reach their destination at the end of the day !I rest my case.

IS THIS A GAME OR WHAT?IF YOU ARE THE JEWISH HANNAH THEN PUT A * BY YOUR NAME. OTHERWISE WILL NEVER KNOW WHO IS A MUSLIM/ARAB ONE,OR WHO IS THE JEWISH ONE. IT IS GETTING TO BE A BIT OF A BORE. JUST DO AS I SAY... P/S HAARETZ THIS IS FOR #253 HANNAH,WHOEVER SHE MAYBE.SHE NEEDS HELP!!!

Then, of course, in the middle of his ohh so serious lecture he says - as he always does - "yeah yeah yeah do the occupation shuffle." Not a deep thinker, are you peter.....

What's the point when it takes 1/2 a day to get a post uploaded. It's ridiculous

I didn't say everyone hates us. I don't think that at all. In fact I've been a supporter of Peace Now for a number of years -and I hope we get a peace deal similiar to Taba as soon as possbible. I said YOU loathe us, and I stand by that. Do you think you are fooling anyone with your "I'm just against the occupation" routine. I'm against the occupation, I know a lot of people who are but I wouldn't put them in your category. You loathe us - it comes through in your writings - you're not hiding it.

If in the United States journalists knew government leaders were in delicate discussions for diplomatic breakthroughs which they themselves agreed with, they wouldn't blow the whistle on those negotiations without discussing the situation with the leaders involved.

There is a person @ 213 called Hannah. she/he is not Jewish and she is a FAKE! Trouble is there is another Hannah around and she is not an Arab/Mslim and we cannot differenciate them unless the GOOD HANNAH puts a sort of disguize so we can tell them apart. A small star would do beautifully. How about it Jewish Hannah eh?

There is a new spirit in Israel. Israelis have been telling pollsters that a majority oppose any uprooting of Jews. Moreover, physical resistance is increasing. Jewish pride is starting to take shape in Israel. Meanwhile a loser with 3% popular support wants to give away our land, in order to stay out of jail. Israelis won't let it happen.

This deal is to the Pals what the proposal must have been to the Zionist to erect a Jewish state in Uganda. After murdering Arafat, and dividing the Pals by 1st boosting Hamas against Fatah then isolating it when Fatah became its pawn, Israel is inching closer to force Fatah Pals into signing the unthinkable and the only deal Israel would accept: worthless waterless, tourist-less, religiously-insignificant land for Jerusalem, 60% of water reserves, and the best lands in the West Bank. I am no fan of Hamas or AQ , but Israel's contempt of International Law and UN resolutions with the stalling and blessing of the US is turning every Arab into a fan of Hamas and AQ. Of course, Israel will then be able to claim to have signed a peace treaty with the "representative" Pal gov't, and any opponent to the deal will be an "insurgent". But Israel will be able then to claim louder its bogus sovereignty on stolen land. Thanks to Abou Mazen, who cannot see that no deal is better then a bad deal

Axel In that case by the same token,you could say what the Arabs/Muslims are doing nowadays would,according to you,is fine eh?Once they had conquered a land they think is theirs for= ever.Just like Andalusia and many others.They want their Caliphate,as it was centuries ago. You are being very disengenuous Axel,and you know it!naughty,naughty.. I have stated our Jewish narrative. Now,come on Axel and tell me what are the present Arabs/Muslims doing throughout the world and attacking all the West in the name of Islam hmmm? You can fool some of the people some of the time,and some people some of the time,BUT YOU CANNOT FOOL ALL OF THE PEOPLE ALL THE TIME.Thus endeth my lesson to you...

Howdy Tony; I've tried to post several messages today which indicated my support for a land exchange in order to establish a permanent border, but Haaretz deigned not to put them out. What few city folk seem to realize is that hilly areas (like the seamline area) generally make for poor agricultural land except on the valley floors. Most of the Israeli settlements in the seamline area appear to be on high ground (judging from photographs) and not in the flat lands. Contrary to popular opinion, deserts are much more fertile than hilly areas (I call them "hilly" because nobody over there in the Levant would know a real mountain from a mosquito bite). In general, deserts are reasonably flat, have fertile soil, and get plenty of sunlight. All they need is water which can be arranged. The San Jacquin Valley used to be a stinking desert until we got water to it and now it is one of the most productive agricultural regions on Earth.

Will the occupation end? Will the settelments and check points go away? Will the Gaza aiport re-open? will the Gaza coast no longer be patroled? Will Israel allow the Palestinians to trade treir goods with the rest of the world, and make a decent living? Will Israel allow these people to have their own municipal offices, so they can manage their daily lives? I very much doubt it.

Peres's proposals are pure Peace now Secular Humanistic Madness , and a direct thumbing of the nose to G-D and His WORD . Peres will not escape G-D'S wrath as he is directly responsible this time with Olmert . The prophets warn of false prophets crying " Peace , peace when there is no peace " also Many will perish as a result of false peace in the end of days . May G-D have mercy in Judgement .

Barak hi! I will be a bit rude though and say what Kung Fu Tzu(Confucious)I think may have said. I heard it sometime ago by one of my elders. It goes like this:When you are geting raped You might as well ENJOY IT. Now then,naughty of me having to repeat it here.But I really heard the saying,and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Old Chinese Philosopher might have very well thought it. Conversely,I am an avid reader of classic Chinese history and love it.There's a book that I have(very much censored)because of its open sexual content and naturally not in the one I possess.What I wrote was word of mouth by an elder...Therein lays the Chinese story.The Chinese are very knowledgable and have a great history behind them.Pity now that they have the communist regime and have censored all the books by Kung Fu Tzu,and Lao Tze....

Tosefta, agreements were signed. It would have been very nice had either side honored the agreements, much even better, their spirit, we would not be having this conversation. The REAL situation is that both sides right now are led by weaklings. Any prior agreement is mostly of historical import as both sides voided them by their actions. It is probably dangerous to make agreeing to honor what was already dishonored, than to emphasize the need to come up with something both sides can honor. Olmert can give up nothing without the excuse that the US demands it. Abbas can give up nothing without confirming the worst and most conspiratorial of suspicions. Where is the room either would need to negotiate anything?

I hope the drugs you are on are perscription,tell me Hannah is their any other nation that needs to leave where it now resides in order to reconnect with their G-d or is that an honour only reserved for Jews? Dont you get it? Your plans are pathetic and laughable.But this is your way of having fun isnt it dana!

Palestinian state on this web site. En passant,it may interest you to know that Kashmir is divided into 3 regions:one under Pakistani control,one under Indian control and one under chinese(the Indian section was given by the UN). In any case whether this is all decided or not what relevanc does it have to the establishment of the Palestinian state? The ME can go up in a conflagration which can affect the whole region and beyond.India has a long western coastline which fronts the Arabian sea,our monsoon winds come across the Arabian sea.Our problem with Pakistan is well contained.As for Indian controlled Kashmir we do not fence the inhabitants in and they have a parliament with representation there.Our generals go to check on what is going on.It is not the same situation as the Palestine question.Ask the Muslims of India(proper) if they are content to live in India.A Muslim cleric recently wrote:"India,our country,the best country in the world".Our President used to be a muslim.

But what does Spain say here?? i thought you claimed Abbas was irrelevant and a roadblock to peace, in fact you claimed he was not even fit to pronounce on the degree of Hamas moderation, rather you said only Spain does, how does this ludicrous set of notions fit in here now that you have been shown up to be a hysterical misfit?? Thanks write soon buddy.

As I have said for along time a two state solution will be a mortal blow to our enemies, who were never interested in justice for the Palestinians, but rather in using this conflict for theri personal and dogmatic objectives, as FOX asked who will they hate?? Hopefully themselves.

excuse as well as "Palestine". Do you want world peace or just beat the drums for the Arabs?

"For me the Pals still have alot to prove." For YOU? Who are YOU??? That is the attitude of the 19th century colonialist: "For me, these negroes (arabs, asians, micronesians etc.) still have to prove their 'worthiness' of independence." Excuse me, your Jewish highness, NOBODY has anything to prove to you as you were not designated as a juror over the achievements of other people. And when they fail in this or that respect, it is up to them to fail or succeed, and not a matter of their haughty neigbours.

We can come up with thousands of excuses to avoid the hard work of making peace with our enemies but the alternative is just not acceptable for either the Palestinians or Israelis. People of good will, moderates, must try whenever the opportunity presents itself even if chances for success seem slim. Otherwise we are dooming both people to more death and destruction for the forseeable future.I am the last person to think making peace will be easy and I know it will take huge compromise but in my opinion it's worth doing so another generation doesn't have to live in war and occupation. It's time to take the chance and see where it leads. Israel isn't going away and neither are the Palestinians. Be realistic and peace is the only way to go.

going anywhere.For the latest analysis of the landgrab(the 5%) that Peres is talking about see today's imeu.net Sonja Karkar has the lead article(can't recall the title).5% of the best land& all the water resources in the West Bank ! What next!In Maan News they report also the attacks by the settlers on the Palestinian families,and the torching of a mosque while the soldier stood by and watched.If israel thinks that it can use the settlers as a battering ram to chase away the Palestinians they had better think again.www.Maannews.net/en Regards.

Well I would imagine that it's only logical that there would be reciprocal exchange of 5% fertile land - the Palestinians aren't stupid! You should also know lakshmi that not all the land within Israel's Green line is fertile either - so there's difficulties with the whole region's terrain as well. Just yesterday as I was sitting at a park bench while the kids played in the playground, I noticed the sandlike consistency of the soil. Therefore, projects which would enhance irrigation are most vital and are being developed. Currently, I'm not aware of what's being offered regarding control of water resources or the tunnels issue. In addition, I believe that Israel suggested to President Bush that the Palestinian state would not be disconnected tracts of land but continuous. The main point is that specific areas will be within the jurisdiction of the Palestinian state, if it's amongst settlements as well. In Israel there are close predominantly Arab villages and predominantly Jewish towns

"may I count on your support that Germany claims?" YES

David you obviously have a poorer understanding of what democracy is than Dan. there is absolutely no problem with a state being Jewish, Christian etc and still being a democracy. For example Thailand is officially a Bhuddist country, it certainly is not the religion which impedes their democracy. Israel was set up as a Jewish homeland due to problems facing Jews in other lands. These are and were very real problems, death, holocaust, loss of civil rights etc. Herzl saw the need, a few decades before the rise of Nazism for the Jews to have a state which would serve as both a refuge and a sanctuary for Jews of all stripes. This is still the cornerstone of the state which in the last twenty years has taken in over a million Russians and over one hundred thousand black Ethipian Jews. Democracy is based on the vote, and the majority opinion holding sway. In the case of Israel, the Arabs, have the right to vote, no Arab country can claim this.

Before your offer can be considered however not only you and a few who think like you but the entire Arab community should build the confidence of the Jews that they can indeed live in an Arab or Muslim state in peace. So far we see the Arab TV stations using the likes of FARFUR etc to teach children to hate Jews. In the past we have seen Iraq, Egypt, and Syria Yemen etc. kicking out their Jewish population bear naked. Even secular Turkey persecuted its loyal Jewish citizens in 1936 and 1941. Your remarks are kind and I appreciate it but not realistic.

The idea of a land swap is to avoid the very difficult and painful task of displacing huge Jewish communities. (Don?t tell me that they should not have been there in the first place because dwelling with the wrongs of the past will not bring peace). In the past there have been huge exchanges of populations in order to keep peace. India and Pakistan did it, Turkey and Greece did it. This time instead of moving people land will be swapped to bring in peace. If the two parties are serious about making peace they will find an acceptable way to this land swap within their negotiations. And if as you said Israel was not serious or Arabs are not serious then just like 2000 a new era of confrontations will follow. Let?s hope that both sides are serious when it comes to making peace. After all living without hope has no meaning. So be positive.

Sorry buddy, misread your letter. It is late, and I came to give the forum a boo, I mixed you up with the real doink David. Please accept my apology.

This is very disturbing News... However, you need to have faith in G_d's plan for Israel. Oh, and you need to get off your but-s and throw Olmert and Peres out of office. These bozo?s are not capable of running Israel. Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah [and] against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces. Zechariah 12:2-3

so Dan you think this is just about land eh? Good for you. Now go find that unpopulated piece of land. Back at Camp David they had been thinking of offering the Pals some "unpopulated" land just west of Hebron. Turns out Bedouins live there, and as sure as the Rangers will not win the cup, they are not eager to be part of this Palesinian venture either. Why give up empty land, for what reason? Under this plan they recieve many settlements which are well planned and conceived, as well as the once fallow fields which are now green with crops. As well you would think that a Pal would be happy to be reunited under the Pal flag with their relatives. But this doesn't mean anything to you, you have come to the conclusion that they should be rewarded for their intifada. I think not. For me the Pals still have alot to prove. Foremost that they are actually a nation intent on providing for their people, and not just content to be used as human fodder by their "friends".

TL: "Who made the land fertile out the worthless desert?" Who stole the water to make tht land fertile, and who did they steal it off? TL: "Maybe Pals could duplicate it." Indeed, TonyL. But I don't think Israel will have enough water to spare once they loose the WB aquifers, and I doubt the Pals will be strong enough to seize it off Israel in the way that Israel has been stealing the water off them since 1967.

"Hebron was/is Jewish through and through.It was where Our King David was Anointed and made it his Capital,and stayed there for 7 years, before he came to Jerusalem and made it his other Capital." As the German emperor Friedrich II., by birthright known as puer Apuliae, and for years residing in Sicily, undoubtedly made these parts German through and through, may I count on your support that Germany claims southern Italy and Sicily as ancient German property?

or a Sikh state in Amristar???You such a hypocrit I dont know why you bother posting on here????

You've never been to Israel. You don't know what good land looks like here or what agriculture is like here. You're just big talk and noise as usual.

Howdy Lakshmi; "the settlements are connected to israel proper by exclusive by pass roads." You are counting in the Israeli settlements which are on the Palestinian side of the security barrier. I doubt if anybody seriously contemplates that Israel will be able to hang on to those. It's the settlements in the seamline area that Israel wants to keep. "The Palestinians on the other hand, are separated by circuitous roads &tunnels which effectively isolate them from each other." If they are connected by roads and tunnels, then they aren't really isolated from each other now are they? Besides, if Israel relocates the settlements which are on the Palestinian side of the fence, that should no longer be a problem. You should really take a look at a map. There's a good one on the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs website under "Terrorism Since 2000". "Except the 5 taken is the best land and has the water resources." That's debatable. Most settlements appear to be hilly area

I actually once saw some grass growing on a hill near Wadi Arah. That must be what Johnny boy is talking about. You can't put much over on him.

We're more efficient than that. If we'd wanted genocide there'd be nothing left to make peace with. Be lucky you're dealing with us and not with other arabs.

"Hi Tosefta, Where does the "Honour Past Agreements" clause of the three demands made by Israel/US/Quartet fit in." - Labhras Hello Labhras, I imagine the past agreements refer to Oslo and followups. There were no other signed agreements. The Taba conference came close to what is proposed now, but did not conclude with an agreement. The Quartet was referring to official, signed agreements, not to ideas that did not materialize.

exhange.The 5% in the West Bank is the best land and israel keeps the water resources.because of the exclusive by pass roads that connect settlers to israel,while there are only circuitious and confining tunnels to connect the ever shrinking land for the Palestinians(because of israel's ongoing settlement expansion) the Palestinians will be confined to disconnected enclaves.Giving 5%land from israel is ingenious because it is arab majority land. None of this is going to fly.Should abbas sign away any guarantees to implement the Peres scheme his days will be numbered.

Hello, Cipora. I know the Pals want the whole Israel. This is why I wrote that post. I am very sad, indeed. Many thanks, Cipora. I hope you and yours are well too. 9.54

From what you say, the pals should now give Gaza back to Israel. If giving Gaza to the pals was wrong for being unilaterally done, the pals should give the Strip back to Israel. So, I guess Israel should have to give the West Bank, East Jerusalem, I suspect that also money, weapons, allowed the pals into Israel proper, etc. If that is so, it would be better for the Jews to start packing.

But the occupation costs Israel $9 billion ... not occupying would cost a lot more. just look at sderot who have to run into shelters up to 20 times a day to avoid rockets. duncan

Dagma, I appreciate your thoughfulness I live in Jerusalm thanks. Don is a friend and I needed his reference with which he so kindly supplied Thanks Don.

Behind every disabled man, there are always able men. Never do anything standing that you can do sitting, or anything sitting that you can do lying down. Be not afraid of going slowly, be afraid only of standing still. Going too slow is losing a cow for the sake of a turtle. A job of a thousand posts begins with a single line.

What is Israel? Is it not the collective yearning of each Judaic heart to return to harmony with HaShem? Why would you assume that this longing could be transliterated into the land-theft, murder and wholesale genocide of the Palestinians; all of which counters the basic Judaic Covenant of the Aseret HaDibrot (Ten Commandments)? Get a grip! Substitute your zionist real estate agents for your own and G-d-given spirituality!

attack and lose attack and lose attack and lose, no problem we'll just keep on starting over again till we get it right. yep, videogameboy sure has a tight grasp of reality. He wants to make sure that the "fertile" land in harei Yehuda is matched by other fertile land to have a "fair" exchange. hehe videogame boy here has no idea what the topography is like nor the fact that it is the least of considerations. oh yeah, videogame boy has to accept a loss before it becomes a loss soooooo let's back up and start over again, again,again,again,again. yeah yeah yeah do the occupation shuffle. hehe your tripe is about as meaningful as the ullulations we hear of proud bluster followed by choking and gasping when the cameras turn. hehe it's a wonder that you could even find Israel on a map, probably not.

You're right, and the writing on the wall is "Not with a bang but a whimper" (courtesy: TS Eliot). One only has to take a brief look at the bankruptsy proceedings in the so-called Israeli housing market, the outrageous increase in tuition at the universities, the close-down of cultural institutions (ie symphony, etc.), and have I perhaps forgotten to mention the mere $20/mo. increase in pension for the holocaust survivors, the alpha-omega excuse for wholesale zionist land and resource theft?Emigration from so-called Israel statistics are not available (for good reason, I assume); however, one can see from the immigration statistics into such countries as Canada and Germany that the so-called Israeli flow is historically up. So-called Israel will end as a stolen squatterdom of Torah literalists, and be justly returned to the Palestinians. Then Israel-of-the-heart will again be taken up as the symbolic hope of the Hebrew people to be harmonously reunited with their G-d.

Hi Tosefta, Where does the "Honour Past Agreements" clause of the three demands made by Israel/US/Quartet fit in. Any ideas on what those past agreements look like and how do they compare with these latest rumours making the rounds. Regards

Joel, here it is: ?Among the real benefits to Israel that are not direct costs to the U.S. taxpayer are the cash transfer of economic and military aid, in-country purchases of a portion of military aid, and loan guarantees. The U.S. gives Israel all of its economic and military aid directly in cash, with no accounting required of how the funds are used. Furthermore, Israel can spend 26.3 percent of the military aid in Israel, clearly a subsidy to the Israeli defense industry at the expense of American defense contractors. Other countries receiving U.S. military aid generally have to spend 100 percent of it in the U.S. Also in contrast with other countries receiving military aid, who must purchase through the DOD, Israel deals directly with U.S. companies.? Source: CRS Report to Congress: U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel, dated January 5, 2006, plus the FY ?06 Foreign Operations Appropriations bill, H.R. 3057.

Dan you are so surprised that Arabs might want to stay in Israel when I'm sure that the concept of 'right' of 'return' seems obvious to you. How strange that seeing the same fact from a different point of view is so difficult for some people to grasp. It all has to do with how honest you are with yourself and with others.

...Otherwise, of course, the Pals might just discover that they have ceded fertile land for worthless desert... Who made the land fertile out the worthless desert? Maybe Pals could duplicate it.

Ronnie, there is no safeguard. We cannot know what will happen in the future with Hamas and Fatah. My prediction is they will get back together and fight Israel. Maybe not now, but then in the next decade.

I liked your post: why do you even bother to respond to Fake Hannah, who is surely employed by some zionist thought-control agency or another to discredit my thoughts posted here. Regards, as alway, Hannah.

Hey Pali' You are the one who is an ignorant.Hebron was/is Jewish through and through.It was where Our King David was Anointed and made it his Capital,and stayed there for 7 years, before he came to Jerusalem and made it his other Capital.If you didn't know that,then the question is superfluous. I do not think much about that so-called poet Darwish who is an anti-Israel and an anti-Jew to boot.I would neither read his hateful book, not even if it was a free for all. A bit of advice to you.Stay in good ole'U.S.A but be sure you behave yourself well while there...

Did anyone hear Israel complain when the land given it in the partition plan consisted mostly of the Negev desert? Israel rolled up its sleeves and caused the desert to bloom (where else are there vineyards in a desert?) Perhpas you would like Israel to choose its most fertile property and offer that? The WB is a very fertile piece of property, so what's wrong with having some desert too? Gaza bloomed when Jewsih farmers were there and is now a dirt heap. So much for your snide remarks. Let the Palestinians get to work to make their country work. You expect everything for them on a silver platter?

I will make one more attempt to point out the fundamental flaw in this "plan". Neither side is strong enough to make the accommodations necessary to create peace. Neither the Olmert or Abbas governments represent more than a minority of their nation's population, and significant elements of the population opposed are armed and dangerous. Neither even has absolute control over their own armed forces. Olmert is in no position to remove the settlements. Abbas is in no position to give up land from the 1967 borders. Both the current 'governments" (can I use that phrase to describe those who cannot govern?) are too weak to accomplish anything. It is not beyond reason to speculate that the fate of Rabin awaits both if they try.

Hear, hear KATH. Peres at the grand old age of 84 years should go Home and leave the troubles of this poor 'ole Country known as Israel' to others more capable, wiser and younger than himself. Furthermore, if there is one good thing he might do before he departs, is to own up to the sorry mistakes he has made in the past, promise not to do them again, and then say 'good-night All' and go to Bed.

Most of the Arabs are Jihadists when it comes to Israel even the ones living in Israel.Peace with the Arabs will only come when they realize that we are here , we are not going anywhere and that they will get NADA unless they show that they can be trusted and they will be peaceful good neighbours. That is why I take a maximalist position and do not deviate or negotiate. Too many concessions for NOTHING already. But eventually we will have to separate from them in a way that we can defend ourselves.

Living in NYC you have no idea what is more important for the people in Israel.

If you say no for a land for land deal then get out of the west bank you moron. Typical jew wants to take and not give back anything.

because, really, do you all still live in cloud-cuckoo land? Leopards don't change their spots. Can anyone be so blanketed in mental fog that they cannot see where this is going? You think once the PO has Judea/Samaria they will be content? Before you can wipe the sleep from your eyes, Hamas and Fatah will be kissing and making up, and then Hamas will be taking over the whole heartland like they took over Gaza and turning it into another warfront - this time a lot closer to Israeli schoolchildren and their mothers. Is that what you want? Reading through the comments, one easily discovers who are Israel's enemies, inside and outside the land itself.

Dan: It seems to me that your views are no more accurate than those of an average American. You listen to what American media shows about "the orenit" almost and put all sorts of "them" together with no attempt to make any separation whatsoever. First of all, Israel, that you descibed as a "secular democracy" is by no means secular. In fact, it's just as secular as is Saudi Arabia. Here are the reasons, the Israeli Declaration of Independence descibes Israel as "a Jewish Democratic State" You the nice, educated American explain how a state can be "christian, muslim, Jewish and yet democratic". Simply this may not seem enough, why then does Israel GRANT citizenship rights to ANY JEW in the world. The Israeli immigration laws clearly state that any Jew can gain citizenship in Israel, really as long as they're Jewish. And No, Israel's immigration laws are not indiscriminatory. Arabs are considered second degree citizens and you should find a better way to learn than US media.

Hello, Cipora. I know the Pals want the whole Israel. This is why I wrote that post. I am very sad, indeed. Many thanks, Cipora. I hope you and yours are well too.

Panhandle if Umm el-Fahm is handed over to the Palestinians? Umm el Fahm controls the Iron Valley (Wada Ara)Road, Rte. 65, the main road from the coastal plain to the Sea of Galilee. Imagine the inhabitantss of the Arab villages of Wadi Ara firing submachine guns and missiles at passing vehicles. Just kidding, of course.

From what you say, the pals should now give Gaza back to Israel. If giving Gaza to the pals was wrong for being unilaterally done, the pals should give the Strip back to Israel. So, I guess Israel should have to give the West Bank, East Jerusalem, I suspect that also money, weapons, allowed the pals into Israel proper, etc. If that is so, it would be better for the Jews to start packing.

This is indeed a high-stakes game: Hamas, currently, holds all the cards. So, this blah, blah and more blah between Olmert and his house-slave, Abbas, is only meant to deceive the Palestinians into voting for Fatah instead of Hamas (the Quartet is somewhat emphatic about democracy being 'shown'). Olmert can only go so far with his facist and racist electorate. I mean, look at the problems with removing a mere two settler families today in al-Khalil (Hebron). It won't work. The Palestinian people's political savvy and inbred sense of justice, decency and honesty will shut this ventriloquist show down soon enough.

Tosefta Simply this.I do like your P/S and nothing else will do.That Peres was/still is a schemer I have no doubt,and hope to heaven he stops interfering further than he has done in the past with its consequences. I thought that a President is supposed to be JUST A FIGURE HEAD AS YOU SAID IN THE PAST! What is all this now coming from him.I'd wish he'd go and live in the States with his niece Lauren Bacall! And leave Israel in peace and quiet.............

All this Talk, its great for a group of Arabs who had emigrated into the region of Palestine for work, then one day found themselves to be 'displaced and homeless' persons after an Arab/Israeli War, tried returning to their Homeland but were refused permission to enter, and posthaste returned to Palestine where they took shelter and were taken care of by UNRWA amd later by their Leader the late Yasser Arafat. Today, it seems the world is in sympathy with these 'lost souls' because not a single one of their Arab Brethren have offered to take them in, and now they actually have to tall into the hands of none other but the Enemy - the hated Jewish State of Israel. But never you mind, these people will survive - they have the Arab Nations and the whole world on their side, whereas Little Israel is all alone when even America her best friend is letting her down. There's Luck for you.

"The Jihadists consider all of Israel occupied." The religious zionists consider all of Palestine Jewish property and want to deport the Arabs. Seems not much difference between the extremists on both sides.

You wish! However, these threads are for those folks who have some ideas, and not merely for late-night fantasies. Sharpen up!

Palestinians have half of the instruments. They dont use their liberties to choose good leaders. They complaint and play the victims. When do they have a real polemics there? They dont use their chances.

There are many good Jews in the world; however, they, by definition, are not zionists. Do not judge this book by its cover: as it happens, now, the zionists have attempted to target all Jews of just and honest anti-zionist sentiments in a variety of ways. Then, through their system of a spider's network of lies and attempted justifications for the evil done against the Palestinians and many others, they want the 'just Jews' to pay for their sins. The zionists are the followers of the usurper Rothschild family and, as such, can be considered as the followers of Shaytan. Zionists practise and preach after the Order of Shaytan. It follows then that they have only learned the historical lessons of evil (ie, the Holocaust). Your people have experienced this. It is not remarkable, really, when you look at the big picture. al-Fatiha.

"Axel, if this was so simple logically, a peace deal would have been done already years ago." Years ago, Israel declared 'no partner for paece', crossed her arms and thought occupation-for-ever would work. You might have noticed that things have changed a bit since then. "Olmert ran for elections on the premise that he would be able to get the world to agree that Israel should keep some 10% of the West Bank west of the "wall", and without compensation. In addition, he promised that he will keep the Jordan Valley, at least another 10%." Without giving much credit to Olmert's intelligence, neither he nor any other Israeli politician ever promised in numbers and percentages the outcome of a final settlement.

Not a land-swap, just a land-grab. ... In the case of the west bank the un supports israel holding on to some of its territorial gains. before un 242 the '49 borders were subject to n armistice but were not part of soverighn Israel. after un 242 the '49 borders became part of sovereign Israel. duncan

COME TO YOUR COUNTRY AND MAKE OUR ABODE IN YOUR HOUSE,AND I AM SURE YOU'LL WELCOME US WITH OPEN ARMS. What a joke isn't it eh? Pure bloody rubbish! Giving them our land after the blood we shed to rid ourselves from a sort of slavery?Not an inch as far as myself and some of like minded people will say.And if they don't,it will mean they like living like dhimmies once again! Dear KUTW,I am so bewildred I cannot even bear to write about it. These Arabs want a "Judenfrei" pali state,while we JEWS give them citizenship and all the benefits they enjoy.Where is parity here I ask? Sorry KUTW I will have to end my missive here because I feel too angry to proceed further. Asta La Vista Con Favor

COME TO YOUR COUNTRY AND MAKE OUR ABODE IN YOUR HOUSE,AND I AM SURE YOU'LL WELCOME US WITH OPEN ARMS. What a joke isn't it eh? Pure bloody rubbish! Giving them our land after the blood we shed to rid ourselves from a sort of slavery?Not an inch as far as myself and some of like minded people will say.And if they don't,it will mean they like living like dhimmies once again! Dear KUTW,I am so bewildred I cannot even bear to write about it. These Arabs want a "Judenfrei" pali state,while we JEWS give them citizenship and all the benefits they enjoy.Where is parity here I ask? Sorry KUTW I will have to end my missive here because I feel too angry to proceed further. Asta La Vista Con Favor

A few days ago he accused Bush Olmert Murdoch and ME!!!! of being gratified by the death of that unfortunate reporter in Gaza.Now I have been swept up in the dragnet of his paranoid bush hysteria. Bush has really done a number on his head!!

100% desire + 100% opportunity + 100% decision= 100%

Cipora I can see you are looking at this venture in gloom and that is what I se too.GLOOM AND DOOM No matter what we Jews do,they will always find more ways to hate us.This is not a new phenomenon,it goes way back since our EXISTENCE and it continuous unabated now.So,what's new?I say never give in because that is exactly what they are hoping and we seem weak in their eyes,which is something they find offensive.They only respect strength and force. I have said on many occasions,and will not deviate from it. In any case,the whole thing is too convoluted, and if our stupid leaders fall for it they will find it cannot be implemented,nor I dare say accepted by the majority of patriotic Israelis. I say:LET THE CITIZENS OF ISRAEL DECIDE.I don't mean the shy cowardly ones,NO SIR! But the ones who cherishes "Am Yisrael"

There are many issues to be overcome, but the fact that what looks like a realistic working paper is already a huge advance, now it will be the arguments about "how to" not what to.As for the haters well they are now in total dread and fear and will try to stop this anyway they can, we must not let anti semites stop us from securing Israels long term intrests,though they will scream what is more important is "what can they do'? Answer?= less and less and less and less, they will become weak and we the modrrate arabs and the US will become strong.Regards

Before your offer can be considered however not only you and a few who think like you but the entire Arab community should build the confidence of the Jews that they can indeed live in an Arab or Muslim state in peace. So far we see the Arab TV stations using the likes of FARFUR etc to teach children to hate Jews. In the past we have seen Iraq, Egypt, and Syria Yemen etc. kicking out their Jewish population bear naked. Even secular Turkey persecuted its loyal Jewish citizens in 1936 and 1941. Your remarks are kind and I appreciate it but not realistic.

You really are desperate that this might work arent you! So what if israel wants to exchange the triangle??? If they agree so whats your problem?? You NEED to be negative about israel, as this opportunity shatters long held beliefs and deeper agendas which are no no longer possible for you.You should be cheering this on, whats your problem?? Even Geneva sees territorial exchange for 4% of the west bank from territory within Israel in order to avoid the IMPOSSIBLE task of destroying ramot eshkol, it shows somebody over there has more brains than you.Are you interested in peace or punishing israel?? Hypocrite

Can anyone explain why the founding of a terrorist Arab state in Eretz Yisrael is the top priority of the Israeli government?

Your infantile, patronising comments will lead nowhere. Israel is not negotiating with you, but with the leaders of the Palestinian people. If they want a state of their own, they will make the minimum compromise necessary in order to achive this goal. Otherwise, they can wait till hell freezes in, and continue an ungoin conflict that might further inflame the entire region.

How are you FOX?? I have said for many years that if we canreally get to a logical and sane resolution of this conflict it will be a mortal blow to the rabid anti semites out there and all the freaks.They have buildt their lives their ideologies their personal intrests and regimes around eternal war with israel.They will always try of course but they will be much thinner and their shrill hysteria will fall on deaf ears, as the whole world wants to move on from this nightmare trip.And yes it will be interesting to see what really pops out amoungst the israeli arabs.Regards

The idea of a land swap is to avoid the very difficult and painful task of displacing huge Jewish communities. (Don?t tell me that they should not have been there in the first place because dwelling with the wrongs of the past will not bring peace). In the past there have been huge exchanges of populations in order to keep peace. India and Pakistan did it, Turkey and Greece did it. The land swap also is a solution to bring in peace. If the two parties are serious about making peace they will find an acceptable way to this land swap within negotiations. And if as you said Israel was not serious or Arabs are not serious then just like 2000 a new era of confrontations will follow. Let?s hope that both sides are serious when it comes to making peace. After all living without hope has no meaning. So be positive.

Howdy Fox; The extremists on both sides are going to oppose with tooth and claw any move towards a final peace agreement especially if it involves painful compromises. A territorial exchange agreement to determine the permanent border sounds reasonable to me provided that it is acceptable to both Israel and the PA. I have always maintained that the border needs to be settled first, but there will be many (possibly a majority) on both sides who will not like whatever is worked out. Determination of the border will facilitate resolving the other issues which will have to be addressed like the refugee problem, the status of East Jerusalem, security guarantees, mutual recognition, water rights, protection of and access to Holy Sites, economic ties, etc. before a final peace agreement can be realized.

How right you are!! israel has been ransacked for decades to pay for this lunacy, it has been clear for some time that this is no longer tenable.Add to that the need of the US to get a victory to cover for their defeat in Iraq and shore up moderate arab allies means that the intrests pushing for two states has now reached unstoppable levels.At last the real hope of a two state solution is here.

The early Zionists, far from wanting to take the land of the Palestinian Arabs, had, as their plan, "to avoid encroaching on land being worked by the Arab peasantry and instead to reclaim unused, uncultivated land, and by the use of scientific agricultural methods, to restore its fertility." (Fromkin, A Peace to End All Peace, Holt, 1989, p. 522). It turned out, however, that the large Arab landowners were more than willing to sell to Jews: in fact they "offered so much land to Jews that the only limiting factor on purchases became money: the Jewish settlers did not have enough money to buy all the lands that Arabs offered to them." This obviously does not correspond to the notion that the Zionists were ruthless in some way in acquiring land in Palestine. Obviously, they weren't.

Just imagine the site. Thousands of Israeli Arabs protesting and begging Israel not to give them and their land to Palestine. "We want to be part of a secular democracy...not an Islamic corrupt state" they will yell. Israel will be forced. In the end, who's flag flies over your house is much less important then the quality of education, healthcare, and government you receive. Israel should exchange unpopulated areas of Israel proper for the settlemants in the West Bank.

What I have learned is this:Our leaders are emulating the Arabs by speaking from both sides of their mouths!Damn shame,I thought we Jews had more "savoir faire"than the Arabs! What are they trying to do?Give them all that IS OUR OUR LAND WON BY THE BLOOD SHED FROM OUR BOYS? They would turn in their graves if they were still among us! And for what pray Mr.Peres? Have you not done enough damage to Israel sufficiently in the past,appeasing is not the answer. You give them an inch and they'll want a yard and that is what they want.Not only what you suggest,but the whole of ISRAEL! Mr.Pres'I cannot believe what I read. Now President Peres,(that you have become one) etc,congratulations and all,stop meddling with the future of our country ISRAEL!Do more thinking because until and unless you do OUR COUNTRY AND YOUR PEOPLE WILL GO TO THE DOGS(as the saying goes)! Enough for one day I fear.Too ridiculous for for words.I'm off to the dogs for a game.

you mention,the 5% of the West Bank is prime land and has the water resources.I don't see the Palestinians giving that up.My personal read of this charade is that israel is using the time to stall & continue expansion of settlements.The point of using the settlers as battering rams,currently in Hebron,where the Palestinians are being attacked,including their mosque, is to drive them out,same with the Bedouin.In East J.,some 50,000 settlers are going to live in the new housing units and hence the change in demographics of what has always been a Muslim majority city.Peres is a wily fox.I wonder how long the Palestinians will be patient.And how long before Al Q infiltrates the WB.Somebody once described Hamas as Boy Scouts,compared to AQ.As for abbas his days,I am afraid are probably numbered.The foolish man thinks he is arafat,and even arafat . . .!

I fail to understand how the fact that he hates Bush would lead him to want to shoot Jewish settlers. It is dangerous to underestimate your enemy, so to speak, and even more so, it is dangerous not to know him. As far as I am concerned, and based on reading his posts for a year and a half, he is just an antisemite. Furthermore, as a Hamas supporter, he is not your garden variety Bush hater.

There was no real scarcity of land in Palestine when the Zionists began arriving and the Zionists did not want all of it. (Fromkin, 1989, A Peace to End All Peace, Holt, p. 516). The "problem, rather, was that so much of it was controlled by a small group of Arab landowners and usurers. The great mass of the peasantry struggled to eke out a bare living from low-yielding, much-eroded, poorly irrigated plots, while large holdings of fertile lands were being accumulated by influential families of absentee landlards." (Ibid., p. 522). Moreover, the system through which these influential families acquired cultivable land was corrupt, resting on a network of connections that allowed them to buy before it ever came on the open market. (Marcus, Jerusalem 1913, Viking, 2007, p. 102). So who was exploiting Palestinians Arabs? Not Zionists, but other Palestinian Arabs.

the settlements are connected to israel proper by exclusive by pass roads.The Palestinians on the other hand, are separated by circuitous roads &tunnels which effectively isolate them from each other. Algebra:sounds good on paper,the equation 100-5+5=100. Except the 5 taken is the best land and has the water resources.The 5 given ?It is called 'unequal exchange'.

yes, and high time too, that Shimon Peres thought of Retiring. He had his '84th Birthday' a couple of days ago, and who knows if in those days in Poland people even knew exactly WHEN they were born! The kindly ole gentleman is far too old to be taken seriously, and as for Olmert, he only enjoys THREE PERCENT POPULARITY VOTE and appears to enjoy being Photographed far more than telling Israelis what they like to hear. Those Two would be better off doing 'Houdini's Disappearing Act' for Israel's sake.

The Jihadists consider all of Israel occupied. If that were not the case, there could have been peace a long time ago. Indeed, before the "Jihadists," the Pan-Arabists and the Pan-Islamists also considered all of Israel occupied. I hope you and yours are well.

Sullivan get things straight, it would not include the Galil because it simply does not border Palestinia. If the Israeli-Arabs chose to stay in Israel, then rather it being crude propoganda it would be proof that they prefer to live in the Jewish state, with all its benefits and its problems. Sullivan at some time in your life, you are going to have to get over your life's essential failure. You cannot continue to use Israel as a crutch. It is getting really pathetic. As you know, no peace is utopian. You call this an economic issue and not ethnic, what the hell are you talking about? Is this a bit of Marx being tossed into the pudding. Get off it buddy, this is a war between peoples, not economies. This is not an uprising of the workers, wake up, have another coffee. Please allow the Pals to decide what they think is good for them, rather than throwing up your crude and racist road-blocks. If you really want peace, than show it once and a while.

Indeed yoni, you may have something there. Another Yigal Amir ...... where oh where.

I happen to be working on a painting now, entitled heaven. In researching what is heaven, I asked people what they imagined heaven to be. As usual everybody gives a standard, alone on an island paradise. I have chosen a different tract, incorporating the standard issue heaven with the reality of what people would want, from 24 bars, lots of shopping, dance, song and beer. The same goes for the conflict here. Many folks toss around high-falutent words about human rights, geonocide, apartheid, colonialism etc. This is what they enjoy, the feed on this rhetoric. If this conflict were brought to an end, these same folks would search for elements of Israeli society to hate. The word here is HATE. As for Mark he is a slug who has adhered himself to the anti George Dumbya cult. His whole view of the world is terribly colored by this craze. Regarding Tossefta, he is always on the edge of scratching someone's eyes out. He debates like a little girl. Peace sister.

Sorry to say there will never be Peace in Israel or on Earth until the Lord returns, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Messiah and savior of Israel and the rest of the World. The God of abraham, Isaac, and Jacob's one and only son. Here's a great quote from a great man, Randy Newman. "before someone can hear the good news, they're likely to be bothered by the bad news? Good luck to all, turn from you sins and put your faith in Jesus before it's too late.

It may be that this information is a little 'food for thought'. Israel is today a country steeped in research - in science, high-tech, aeronautics, development of weapons, in medicine and many other fields pertaining to the progress of our modern world of today and in so doing, buys all her raw material, equipment and spare parts from the States. Consequently, Israel pays back to the States much of what she gets. Furthermore, the two countries have often been involved in 'business ventures' together. Thought you might like to know.

of the large settlements to remain in the State of Paletine, as Jewish Palestinians, after all they are OUR cousins.

Dear Haaretz, You are supposed to be the liberal Israeli media. Let me say something, Mahmoud Darwish, whom you know well I assume, has written in a poem titled "To My Killer", he said, "If you looked into the face of the victim, and thought you would see your mother in the gas chamber" When will the Israelis population as a whole come to realize that what they did to us is simply what Hitler did to their ancestors. I think a recongnition of what is what here would be very helpful so that the people don't feel the Israelis are "giving up" to the Palestinians. Israel is the one partner that controls almost all elements of the equation, it is therefore the one that can give parts of it the Palestinians. I mean what could Palestinians give to Israel? On the other hand, for the Hebron settler matter, it is quite funny that people in the comments for the most part have not mentioned that the settlers actually have been occupying Palestinian houses?! I mean how ignorant is that.

I was wondering what the jihad supporters will say when Israel is beyond the Green Line and the pals continue to attack it. Which excuses will they find for the attacks on Israel? I guess they will continue to claim it is the occupation. This is a sad day, really.

This is indeed good news with regards to the proposal of the West Bank region. Hopefully there will be acceptance of an exchange of some of these parts so that a fair solution to this dispute, which many Israelis incidently believe will never be solved, will finally come to reality. Maybe this Olmert Government will bring us peace!

Ask the people in Taibe if they want to be part of Palestine or Israel. I suspect the answer is Israel. Could a State of Palestine guarantee their personal security? Would it pay their Bituach Leumi? How about health care - Meir Hospital would no longer be just down the road but in another country?

How old are you?, people dont hate for nothing, its all about greed, survival and territory. I heard about the Zionist gangs of the 40's, you want to talk about that?

Johnboy,Lakshmi,Dutch Doris,Marilyn,Johnboy,Viper,Indrajaya and company,have already dedided which objects they gonna hang themselves with. LOL,if they continue life without bashingg little Israel, they will deem their own lives worthless.Ballistic is gonna jump of the peace train on harmony bridge over the friendship canyon :)

"How can [Olmert] walk to the negotiating table with USA and Saudia Arabia in fall and and have no better offer than a Palestinian state minus Jewish settlement blocs?" - Axel Axel, if this was so simple logically, a peace deal would have been done already years ago. Olmert ran for elections on the premise that he would be able to get the world to agree that Israel should keep some 10% of the West Bank west of the "wall", and without compensation. In addition, he promised that he will keep the Jordan Valley, at least another 10%. You are assuming that Olmert outgrew his beliefs from childhood, or that Bush would insist on 100% West Bank, or that the Saudis will be at the conference. Just recall that even Clinton ended up proposing that the Pals will get a net of 97% of West Bank (after some exchange). In order to evaluate the situation you need to have this background. Also, you need to know that Peres is one of the biggest schemers ever. If the news came from him, it means this is part of some scheme. P.S. I personally support such a plan. But I don't see that Olmert is anywhere near it.

Israel, on one hand seems to be saying that the 3 large colony blocs will be exchanged for land within the current State of Israel. That of course means the parts of the Triangle or Galil that have an Arab majority. Israel says this would of course be dependent on the agreement of those Israeli Arab citizens. If they disagreed and chose to stay in Israel, very likely Israel would use this for propaganda purposes: "You see? Look howe good they have it here. They dont eve want to be part of Palestine." In other words, what would be a basic economic decision would be morphed into an ethnic one. I wonder if Israel would agree, when speaking of fair and equitable land exchange if they would agree to transfer Ramat Eshkol, Sanhedria, Talbieh and Katamon to Palestine?

It cannot work because the Arabs refugees were not expelled by Israel, they were asked to leave their homes by the Arab aggressors who attacked Israel in 1948 so that the local Arabs would not be on the way during the war to erase Israel from the map. Those who did not listen and stayed were welcomed by Israel and have enjoyed a better standard of living in Israel compared to the neighboring Arab states. The Jewish refugees were kicked out of their homes while their properties were taken by the Arabs. During the process they were intimidated and harassed even murdered. They were not wanted in the Arab community. For those Jewish refugees from Arab lands there is no home in Arab states. The only safe home for them is Israel.

What a sad day for the Jewish people when the people's army is sent to evacuate Jews from their homes in Hebron, and trial baloonist Peres leaks signs of an Israel surgically sliced from within, which will surely happen if these people are not removed from governing before this actually materializes, G-d forbid. Where are the protesters, the concerned, the abused, the weary Israelis who take all of this sitting down? Complacency is the last thing Israel needs...

They will continue to hate Jews. They will always find reasons to hate Jews. Mark wants to shoot settlers if they don't obey. Just think about the hatred behind such comment. Tossi only wants to fine them. Maybe that is the difference between a non-Jew and a Jew. Furthermore, we are far from a settlement. Forget not that Fayyad said that they are not ready to take over security. The Arabs in the triangle might refuse to join their brethren. The settlers outside the blocks will not want to move, especially if there is no housing waiting for them. Gaza is a den of various terror groups. It is hardly any better in the West Bank. I do not mean to rain on your parade, but the practicalities of almost any plan are daunting. Nor has anyone mentioned the poison pill of the "right of return." Unfortunately, too much depends on the good intentions of all parties involved, and it is this element that is most lacking. Shalom to you and your family.

Alicia, its not about forest and trees, its purely about stopping Peres and co before this gets started. From the days of King David till today, we the Jewish people have wanted PEACE (not piece) with our neighbors. Peres knows Jewish history, he knows this months hebrew 9th of Av - the destruction of the Temple, yet he does not care. Why should God bother comming to the rescue if we the Jewish people sit by and do nothing? God gave us the opportunity to finally get back what is ours, we perished thru the holocaust and now are back, ready to resume our place in the world - only for Barak, Peres, Olmert ect to deny us. Therefore again I say - DO NOT support the state of Israel, support the LAND of Israel.

From what you say, the pals should now give Gaza back to Israel. If giving Gaza to the pals was wrong for being unilaterally done, the pals should give the Strip back to Israel. So, I guess Israel should have to give the West Bank, East Jerusalem, I suspect that also money, weapons, allowed the pals into Israel proper, etc. If that is so, it would be better for the Jews to start packing.

Its allways good to listen to the other side if you rally want a lasting peace but I guess when you have the upper hand and mighty US backing, you dont really give a damn.

Khalid, The same size of the area holding Israeli settlements in the West Bank (5 % of it) will be handed to the future Palestinian state from withing Israel proper. So it's 100 - 5 + 5 = 100.

"Weakness cannot cooperate with anything. Only strength can cooperate." - President (General) Dwight Eisenhower That is exactly the problem now. Neither Abbas or Olmert is strong enough to control more than a minority faction of their nation. Olmert cannot afford to give up any settlements and Abbas cannot afford to giveaway the 1967 borders. Were Bush to tell Olmert, and Israel, that an immediate end to US aid would accompany a rejection of immediate withdrawal from the West Bank and an end to occupation, he would loose what little of his base he retains. Were Olmert to demand the withdrawal of the settlements he would have mutiny in the army and face assassination by a likudnik as Rabin did. If Abbas does not stick to the 1967 borders, Hamas will stick them up his. . . There is simply no one strong enough to cooperate. They each must seek an impossible deal or suffer an unacceptable fate.

Howdy Danite; Where is this "triangle" of which you speak? I assume that it is an area of Arab Israeli communities. I wonder if the Arab Israelis would vote to be under the juristiction of the PA. Imagine waking up some morning and being informed that you are no longer an Israeli citizen, to turn in your passport, and to pick up your new Palestinian citizenship papers at the nearest PA office. How many Arab Israelis would fall for that deal?

But the facts are Israel is unique in NOT having to spend a cent with the US - it is the only nation on earth that the US pays the $2.46 billion in cash NOT trade credits. US Foreign Appropriatons Committee aid to Israel their link leads nowhere to any citations Thanks Habibi,

Hey gang, I have not heard from Doris on this forum today. I know that they are just awakening in America, but still no sign of Doris. Doris, contact us darling! I fear that with peace talks taking form Doris will be left with nothing to do. As she has entered the twilight years of her life, she had found something better than owning a small non-allergic dog. She had found Israel, which became for her the anti-christ, evil personified, a focus for all her life's frustrations. where will she turn, who will she beable to hate with all her heart, Sri Lanka?

Any solution must involve withdrawal from every inch that was gained through the use of Israeli violence. After all, that is the incessant refrain from Israeli's about the violence of others. Or is this just another act of Israeli hypocrisy?

Its amazing how hate mongers can twist things around, they dont know which way to turn, that burning sensation is going to drive them nuts, lets hope they dint turn to assasination attempts.

Hannah, Thankyou for pointing out a fact, that of any democracy's better attributes, such as avilability of education and healthcare versus the dismal prospect of life under a third-world, tribal baalagan that is any Islamic nation.

Hey Danite, what you wrote about Lincoln was bang on, he has sadly turned into a caricature of himself. Yes, this plan is an instance of calling one's bluff. Many of the Arab youths who ran amok in the early days of the intifada in the Triangle, r going to be punched up by the fathers if this ever comes to being. It certainly will make for intersting times in the Israeli-Arab community when they start debating the action. Israel is going to start looking very democratic and fair, once the reality of living under Hamas and Fatah starts taking hold. I do feel that we have to make room for some of the Arabs who have been good and postitive citzens, they can come and live in Karkur. I would have no problem with that. I will be telling my friend in Baqa to start looking for a home here. As for the gang of Israel haters, I fear that they fear they will be losing much of their reason for living. What will they do if peace were to actually break out. Who will they hate?

How is Omert so naive to think that the Arabs will keep an agreement? That is impossible. It is not in their culture to honor agreements, treaties, or contracts. What are the Arabs giving up to get a state? Nothing. What is Israel giving up? Hard fought security which is rapidly receding.

This is an idea upon which to base a peace treaty. Not a unilateral proposal like Gaza. There a lots of other issues than land that have to be resolved before any peace treaty can be signed or implemented. We haven't seen security proposals yet. We haven't seen refugee proposals yet. If you don't like this land proposal, do you have a better, more acceptable one to offer? If you have one, please post it and include why it is in the interest of Israelis or Palestinians.

It is interesting to see Lackshmi running scared with the first sounds of Peace. He is part of the "To the Last man, woman anc child" club. Those folks who will never be happy until everyone in the area is dead. Thus when the sounds of peace start coming in, he runs crazy looking for reasons to pooh pooh the deal. Why? Well since he averages at least twenty posts to Talkback a day, making it his hobby and a lifestyle, what would he do if peace were to break out. Who would be his enemy? To what site would be be able to write and rant on and on about evil Israel. Now he is complaining about the state of the land being traded. Now his new line is fertile land. Obviously he is so ignorant of the geography here that he is speaking out of his butt. With care the Pals will be able to cultivate the lands surrounding Baqa, it is already being farmed. But what will the Pals do with this farmland. Will they do what they did in Gaza and loot & destroy the hot houses?

Please, try to see the forest from the trees and Israel from Peres. At least my love for Israel will never change and I will contribute to Israel with the little acc. to my means till the day I die. Pace; all you need to believe in, is the G-D of Israel, who is with Israel. Can man resist G-D? Rather fear G-D than man. As long as our G-D stands by Israel, we have nothing to fear. Just remember; everything has its time and what G-D has decreed, He will not change nor let man alter. In the meantime, let's just make an effort to do our best to deal "frummly" with our fellow-men and life here in the world. Knoweth before whom you stand!

What are you talking about, you foolish woman? If the report is correct, the plan is offering the Palestinians 100% of the square kilometers of the West Bank: 95% would be of the West Bank itself, and 5% would be land swaps. Your threats of Al-Qaeda are duly noted. I hope that someone keeps a close watch on you. Haaretz, please post

It was mentioned that Israel might transfer the Arab towns to the new Pal state, with the Arabs resident's consent. Israel should transfer these Arab towns to the new Pal state WITHOUT the resident's permission. Now Jews will be allowed to live in a new Pal state; Israel should return the favor.

Isn't Peres behaveing like he owes the freehold deed of Israel ? Is he aware in his last plan he is positioning Israel on an open door to a would be an Islamic Republic ruled by the Sharia laws which are laws above the laws ? Just like today's Iran ? I doubt if he is aware of that ? But does her care even if he knew ? I don't think so. He racklessly did the same plans before and more than once. I have no knowledge of the Constitution Laws of Israel. Is a President has any right to play any political role ? The man has made many plans for the future of Israel,all these plans failed flat on their faces. Has he ever felt sorry or remorsful for any of those blatant blanders? No one saw any sign of that. The man has a thick face and no moral discipline This time he over step the line.Without wining any public election he appointed himself the Tzar of Israel.This man is dangerous. Israel is not safe even in his Presidential empty hands.

The idea of "two state solution; is deceitful. The idea of Israel's enemies, viz. Rice and Baker.At the time when the U.S. is fighting a war on terror, theese two are advocating the establishment of one more terrorist state and supoporting a man who is not only poweless but declared his intention of not running for reelection. Supplying a corrupt organization with money and weapons. The money will end up in private bank accounts, the weapons in Hamas' hands as it has happend in Gaza. The purpose of this plan is clear to everebody except to the israeli LEFT, the destruction of Israel!

Racist garbage.

Howdy Lakshmi; The idea would be to separate the Israelis from the Palestinians as best as possible while at the same time maintaining contiguity for both Israel and the West Bank. The border between the two will be highly complicated and weave in and out, but it will be a simple connected curve (i.e. non-self-intersecting and not disjoint) which will divide the area into two distinct and contiguous pieces. What enclaves are you talking about? The IDF checkpoints in Areas C in the West Bank are not a part of the security barrier or any proposed border that I know of. The Palestinian neighborhoods of East Jerusalem might turn out to be an enclave, but that is a separate issue.

Despite your childish and immature jibe, I will answer your questions, but unfortunately your questions themselves are based on false premises. I have posted on this subject before and was accused of lying, that the stats I quoted were 'lies' that the US Foreign Appropriatons Committee I quoted from was 'false'. But the facts are Israel is unique in NOT having to spend a cent with the US - it is the only nation on earth that the US pays the $2.46 billion in cash NOT trade credits. But the occupation costs Israel $9 billion and its running out of State assets to sell and foreign reserves will last just 142 days. Povery is on the rise in Israel and there are budget cutbacks. The writing is on the Wall.

Thank you for your impassioned post Alicia. I have no doubt you believe passionately in your own every word. Which makes it all the more sadder, because you have been duped by one of the more common Zionist propaganda lies that pre 1922 the land west of the Jordan was an empty land. This is simply not borne out by the facts. it is a black myth propagated by the Zionist Federation to justify land grab. Proof? Ask the Arab population how long they've been living in Haifa, peacefully alongside Jewish families for generations, until the forced imposition of secular nationalistic Zionism - Jabotinsky and his 'Iron Wall'. The land was populated by Jewish and Arab families living alongside each other for hundreds of years. Check any history book.

Ehud Barak, you should keep quiet, if you had shame. But you don't! You surrendered in Lebanon, abandoned Israel best allies in the region. Now you turn against your own people, instead of doing something to protect Sderot, or stopping the arms flow from Egypt to Gaza. The people of Israel hate you. You are just another socialist, who is buisy with filling his pocket! Shame on you! the day of justice is approaching!

"The basic motive of the foundation of Jordan was to accomodate the Pals, who lived in Palestine," Could you name by whom, how, or when before 1947 it was planned to accommodate (= transfer) the Cisjordanian Arabs to Jordan?

Peres wants to keep is prime land,agricultural land,plus the water aquifiers.the remaining west bank land will be disconnected enclaves,owing to the presence of the infamous Wall.And settlements in East Jerusalem must be stopped since increasing the jewish population there is an obvious ploy against the Palestinians. As the Arab Initiative states:withdraw from ALL occupied territoty,with East J. as the capital of the Palestinian state.

I am glad to see someone else here understands that israel needs its freedom from the west bank to move on in life and that in the long term and in the big pitcture it is in israels best intrests!!Regards

But not enough room on this forum to do so. Surrender your e-mail address if you dare and I'll send you the hard, hard, costings and projections. Just to whet your appetite, how many State-owened public sector bodies does the State still own?

The Arabs refugees were not expelled by Israel, they were asked to leave their homes by the Arab aggressors who attacked Israel in 1948 so that the local Arabs would not be on the way during the war to erase Israel from the map. Those who did not listen and stayed were welcomed by Israel and have enjoyed a better standard of living in Israel compared to the neighboring Arab states. The Jewish refugees were kicked out of their homes while their properties were taken by the Arabs. During the process they were intimidated and harassed even murdered. They were not wanted in the Arab community. For those Jewish refugees from Arab lands there is no home in Arab states. The only safe home for them is Israel.

Years from now, when people talk about the name "Peres", all that will accompany it will be scorn and anger - at the man who insists on destroying Israel. After 2000 yrs the Jews finally have thier homeland back, but Peres does not care. Jewish holy sites and cites will be gone, and the arabs will have yet one more country. Peres is exactly the difference between an Israeli and a Jew. Jews can be Israelis, but not every Israeli is a Jew - ie Peres. Therefore I reiterate - DO NOT BUY STATE OF ISRAEL BONDS EVER AGAIN. DO NOT GO TO ISRAELI STATE DINNERS, GIVE THEM MONEY. WRITE/CALL AIPAC/THE ZOA ECT - LET THEM KNOW - YUO ARE NO LONGER OUR BROTHERS, YOU HAVE JOINED THE ENEMY AND THIER GOALS ARE YOUR GOALS.

Exchanging the triangle would be a great idea, no doubt they will jump for joy at the thought of being liberated from Israeli "oppression" I cant wait for their self srving hypocrasy to show.Regards

The same idiots plus new ones, and even worse results.

"...ALL $6 billion ending up back in the US economy through US-only purchases???" If I can persuade Wal-Mart to give me $10,000, and I spend it ALL in their stores, it would still be a fantastic deal for me. "How is 96% of Israeli-made technology ending up as companies in the US which in turn supports a growing employee base, and the economy?" The important thing here is that Israel is getting preferential terms for access to massive funding and high technology. Israel may not be sucking us "dry", but I'd rather see $6 billion spent on repairing Katrina damage.

You should have learned from what?s happening in Gaza. You will be surrounded by jihadists and with qassams falling on you from all the sides.

torched a mosque in Hebron.When the fire services department arrived,the settlers attacked them also.The israeli soldiers looked on and did nothing to intervene(Maan News,Aug.8,2007).Maannews.net/en If the settlers are being used as a battering ram by israel it's not going to work.It won't be long before al qaida affiliated groups infiltrate the West Bank and all bets are off.Certainly it will be the end of the settlers.As somebody once pointed out Hamas are like boy scouts compared to al qaida.If this highway robbery scheme of Peres' is even publicly mentioned there is going to be trouble,first for abbas.His future is already uncertain & after this he will be a marked man.

Hi David- You make an interesting statement, but provide no food for thought. Are you advocating the destruction of Israel? Or do you have worthwhile thoughts worthy og communication. If the latter, please amplify. Thanks, Rick

It is good to see some reasonable discussions. I can understand Israel's need/desire to not allow the green line to be the final borders. A country 10 miles wide in the middle surrounded by historically hostile populations is not defensible. However, the Palestinians should not lose a square meter without getting another, of better or equal fertility, etc. Peaceful co-existence is posssible, but only if both sides compromise. The issue of Jerusalem is problematic. I'm not sure they will ever agree on it. Too bad both sides have rejected it being an "International City" governed by the UN or some board with both Israelis and Palestinians.

This was floated back in Olso days, and recently brought up by Avigdor. Arabs inside Israel in NO WAY want to be Pal citizens. Look how quickly Pals ran into Jerusalem when the wall came and blocked out the terrorist thugs. Even the Arab MKs that live in Umm Al-Faqm protested so ravenously they demanded a revolution of sorts by the Israeli Arabs, calling it an illegal transfer...while waving the Palestinian flag and calling them "brothers". In Israel, the Arab MKs get a lot of money and the right to curse the State. In Palestine, they will be nothing, with no money, and once they curse the State they'll be met with a beating. Yes, if we give them Umm Al-Faqm, the only thing they will receive in many empty houses and a few old people.

Isn't Peres behaveing like the holder of the 'freehold' deed of Israel. No other leader in history has such an arrogance! Or is he a man with thick face and no shame ? In his plan now he will put Israel next door to an Islamic Republic ruled by the Sharia Law, which is a State above the law,just like today's Iran ? How safe Israel will be in a position like that? Did he ever thought of that ? I don't think so ! Ofcourse I am right.Peres has always been busy making plans for Israel that fall flat on their faces. At his age he couldn't has ever remember all those plans that he keeps cooking in his over fertile imagination. I have no knowledge of Israel Constitution Law but is the President has the right of any political role ? This man Peres is an interfering gizzard, licking from all sides without him knowing that. He is not a careing person for the rules or a man of moral discipline. Dispotic,he sees himself the Tzar of Israel.He could be no other than dangerous.

A land exchange is not a new idea nor is it a bad idea, but the devil is in the details. There is even a precedent for one when the 1949 armistice line around the Gaza Strip was replaced by the 1950 armistice line (Egypt ceded about 20 sq. Km. at the northern end to Israel in exchange for a slightly larger chunk in the southeast corner of Gaza). The important thing is to determine a permanent border that is mutually acceptable to both Israel and the PA (Hamas is out because they don't want a border). There's lots of problems here though. The PMO denies considering any such plan. The border (if there is to be one) will be the most convoluted, serrated, and serpentine border on the planet. If Israeli Arab communities are to be sacrificed to the god of Palestinian statehood, what happens to their citizenship status?

I recall under BArak he offered Palestinians 75% of Old City leaving Israel only Jewish Quarter in small walled neighborhood of Old Jerusalem with its narrow streets. And Temple Moiunt to Palestinians making Western Wall a "border" wall. What is the plan NOW

I understand your inability to understand the math provided in the article. It wasn't translated to the Hamas/IJ math you now use in Gaza. I hope I can help... Now, if you have 300 qassams, and you fire 5% of them at innocent civilians and hope to kill children in Israel...how many do you have left? Now if a terrorist commander arrives with a truck full of qassams to use, and gives you 15 to replenish your supplies. How many do you have? Finally, what percentage of the original amount of qassams do you now have? GOOD LUCK. BTW - I think I saw this on this year's matriculation exam in PA schools.

"All we know for sure is that this "news" was leaked from Peres` office. Peres wants to promote it. But there is no indication that Olmert has any inclination to adopt it." For Olmert it is not a question of inclination, but of realpolitik. How can he walk to the negotiating table with USA and Saudia Arabia in fall and and have no better offer than a Palestinian state minus Jewish settlement blocs? If he wants to avoid a 100% withdrawal from the Westbank the least he has to offer is compensation for keeping part of the WB.

Peres and Olmert and crew...traitors to the Jewish Nation and People. Why they are trying to destroy Israel is beyond reason. Are they so naive as to believe they are dealing with rational human beings ynstead of arab scum of the lowest kind. Even their brethren in Jordan, Egypt, Kuwait, etc. want no part of them. Not even Saudi Arabia. The land of Israel, including all of Yerushalayim is un-dividable as per the word of God. The Torah says that letting the stranger remain will make them a thorn in your side. Olmert and company may not even be Jewish.

then... 1) How is ALL $6 billion ending up back in the US economy through US-only purchases??? 2) How is 96% of Israeli-made technology ending up as companies in the US which in turn supports a growing employee base, and the economy? You don't have to be a monkey to figure this one out, but in your case, you should consider asking one for help.

You forgot to mention that as the price of bread has increased over the past several months - Israel has made concessions to peace. Oh and the temperature has risen sharply over the past several weeks - also attributing to ME peace. So, the world should support global warming on a massive scale in order to support ME peace ...staring with the inordinate amount of hot air eminating from your mouth.

....truth is eternal and justice never grows old. TODAY is built on yesterday. TODAY is the consequence of the yesterday. Which means that we should learn to live AWARE of every moment at hand and the FAR-into-the future-reaching consequences of our actions of TODAY! Just as Harris says: "Jordan IS Palestine". The basic motive of the foundation of Jordan was to accomodate the Pals, who lived in Palestine, then an OCCUPIED territory, from which a WASTEland was separated for the Jews to live in and build an independent Israeli state on. This is THE Truth. The future state of PA in the WB will be a good-will gesture of Israel, demonstrating Israel's flexibility and capability of compromising. BUT the future PA-state will be a synonyme to a whimsy and an UNcompromising, difficult, narcissitic mentality of Arab pride. Personally I am for this PA-state, because Israel needs his freedom to live on with the full expression of his potential and genious and NOT held back by Pals.

You knwow hat the ebst part of an agreement with the Pals will be?? Seeing haters like you eating humble pie, when all your hopes for an apocolypse will be proven to be the chimeras that they always were.

Will you please stop projecting your depression on the rest of us already.All you do is whine and complain and try to fit everything into your simplisitc and often hysterical conspiracy theories.According to you , iran was to be in a smoking ruins by now, with Syria bombarded too with the settlers driving out the Palestinians and all the rest of your paranoia.I know these developments destroy your theories,but to claim this is one big hoax really shows to what sad levels you have come to.Thanks and write soon.

...if only your mailing address changes. "Transfer" that you refer to is the uprooting and mass exchange of populations, as was done in the India/Pakistan separation. This was not part of the article. Just a border change which would allow people to remain in their homes, but have a different phone number and address to pay taxes.

In a news flash from cnn, this is the secret deal.

Tzfonit does more for israel in one day than you do in 10 years with your crude and drooling missives.

Maybe you missed the article last week where Olmert proposed the idea of a chunnel connecting Gaza and the WB. There is no reason that if the final negotiations include some remote community deep in the WB to remain Israeli, a chunnel couldn't work for them, too. These are ideas about the principles upon which a deal could be negotiated.