PA premier Fayyad says suspects in killings of 2 Israelis caught by PA

So far, so good. Why are not accolades being given to the PA Premier fro what is seemingly a change of course from previous equivocal responses?

Are the Muslims as effete and decadent as the Israelis, who have lost their vigor as they degenerate from a vital people to those detached from the biological realities of our species? Will these killers be executed? Will their property and their families be seized and destroyed or provided to the families of the victims as compensation? Hammarubai's Code and the old European practice of Werfgeld, punishment for revenge and provision of compensation, have a place in any vital society that is not immobilized by an attempt to insulate itself from the realities of human nature and the human condition.

violation of Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions

Thanks very much, Albert, and a very happy New Year to you and your family too !!!!! And of course you are correct, the opinions among Arabs living in our Western democracies can be very different from those living in the Middle East. And many of them may have much more understanding for Israels position. But I'm afraid my doubts with regard to Marwans identity remain, his style of writing is a bit too similar to certain extreme pro-Israel posters here. And I am also not too sure about Clickfool and Labhras: I agree, their criticism on Israel is quite pertinacious (and especially I miss once in a while a critical word on the blunders of the other side...), but I would say there are still much worse guys (real Nazi-friends) posting here on the pro-Arab side. But again, good luck to you and everyone you care for in 2008 !!

Michael, since the term "self-hating Jew" exists, maybe there are also some "self-hating Arabs"....???? However, since I regard the term "self-hating Jew" as rather stupid, maybe we can both agree that we better forget about this "self-hating" stuff....

Hi Dino, Happy New Year to you. I'm an Iraqi Jew and I've met many Iraqis and Lebanese who share Marwan's views. There are hundreds of millions of Arabs, and while most of them live in totalitarian countries and have a very limited range of political views, those living abroad in democracies have more exposure to political pluralism. If many Jews can be anti-Israeli, why can't some Arabs be pro-Israeli? Dino, you are one of the few pro-Palestinian commenters here who genuinely doesn't appear to have any hatred of Jews or see all Israels as Nazis. This is what distinguishes you from Labhras and Clickfool. You know how to plead a cause without insulting. Please continue. Some Jews here are right-wing nutters but most, like myself, believe Israel must return the West Bank and East Jerusalem to the Palestinians for their own free state. The problem is Hamas... Shalam and Salam to you and your family

Below are some Arab voices, who seem indeed to be 'more hawkish than AIPAC': http://youtube.com/watch?v=qmzsMFk9q1c You can check youtube.com for other interviews with Zak Anani and/or Walid Shoebat, all very interesting indeed.

He could not retort so he complained about a period. They call it full stop(but they are Brits).

Michael, you are probably the "last man standing here" who believes that Marwan is an Arab. It would be nice to hear more "moderate" Arab voices. But everybody who is not a total fool has realized for a long time that an Arab who is even more "hawkish" than AIPAC is most probably not an Arab. But if it helps you, keep on believing it....:)

Isarelis out of the territories Is that what you call APERTHEID ?

Two states solutions does that mean also israeli arabs out of Israel?

You make up a fictitious group of 'Palestinian natives' which consists of non-Jews only. Such a group never existed. Whom do you think you are fooling about your motive? You also try to deceive us by using words we are sensitive to ('occupation', 'peace treaty', 'oppression', 'colonial war'). Quit lying: you do not believe in the rights of anybody but YOURSELF. Your goal is a Middle East without Israel. Come on, admit it.

Joe, respectfully disagree with that one statement of yours... The Arabs in Israel, from the River to the Sea, are not "natives" compared to the Jews. It is even clearer now with the advances in genetics, in addition to other sciences, let alone the Bible. If some people would like to call genetics a form of racism, they're welcome. Suit yourselves. Yes, the Ashdodites and the Arabs of nearby countryside are mentioned in the Hebrew Bible, Book of Nehemiah, circa late 400's BCE. It would not help either to claim that Jesus and the crowds that followed him and his teachings during his lifetime were Arabs. And nowhere is it written that the two great Jewish revolts against Rome were, you get the gist here, I hope, ..Arab intefadas. It is historically well documented, there was a continuity with the Jewish community living in Eretz Israel, from Roman and Byzantine times, through the Arab Mohammedan conquest, Middle Ages, Ottoman time until the Ingathering of the Exiles had began in 1800's.

..for the gander! "one of the few states that refuses to sign into the ICC and ignores UN resolutions like a daily ritual."(Joe) Please don't talk about respecting UN resolutions. After all, weren't your people, the Pal Arabs, the ones who rejected UN resolution 181 which proposed the original two state solution, one Arab and one Jewish (Israel)?

Theories like 'The Jews have a historical right' have no convincing power when talking to people who are bent on killing their opponent instead of making peace with him. Having said that, I am glad to know that you, as an Arab individual, provide an exception to the rule of Jew-hatred. Can you enlighten us as to what is wrong with all the OTHER Arabs who are caught in an antisemitic frenzy the world has never seen? Do you think they are fixated on religious ideology (jihad, the fight against the infidel) and that re-education is the best remedy to their hysteria?

2 young off-duty men were hunted down and killed while hiking in Hevron hill country, and this enemy poster/imposter, titled "#73 kevin Baltamore, usa", cynically, in cold blood murder style, writes about : "It is more likely that the press will print with more sympathy to the Jew than the Arab and that is a fact." I hope you're right hinting about your own obituary notice in the press. Inshallah !

2.Secondly you now adsmit it is NOT exclsively for Arabs as you claimed 3.Thirdly as the article says they DO have representation which you proceed to deny as you did everything else.They do not get sensitive intelligence data. 4.Most Pals are NOT held in administrative detention Where do you get tens of thousands when in fact B'tselem talks about hundreds. 5.Which part of the word judge as in"The Order directs that the detainee be brought before a judge within eight days " do you find too difficult to comprehend?? 6."Public servant" in your country are judges self employed? paid by private enterprise? 7. Your Using expletives -angry about getting exposed-as a liar!

now quote wher eire was before the eu gave it undeserved money ?? that it is not under attack by its neighbours for the last 60 years ! that like labarse 90% of its population emigrate !

oxford dictionasry conquered-----overcome and control by military force! recapture.....capture again , recover by capture ! capture .....obtain by force i have the feeling labarse you didnt attend school at all

"DO NATIVE AMERICANS HAVE A RIGHT TO KILL ALL AMERICANS?" Native Americans HAD a right and exercised that right for several centuries until they were ultimately defeated. Over 300 years of warfare passed before that fateful day back in 1886 when Geronimo surrendered to the white man. He was the last man standing. Simply put, America won the colonial battle. The Indians won gambling rights. They DON"T have the right to use violence today. There are peace treaties(fwiw). The war is over - Indians have full rights and a native American can become President. Now back to Zion. The Palestinians have not surrendered. There is no peace treaty. There is oppression, a military occupation and a ongoing colonial war in the occupied territories. Israel fights this war with tanks and settlements. The natives have every right to defend their homeland. After 300 years, come talk to me about Israel's right to exist. Whether it's wise or effective for Palestinians to exercise that right is another matter. For those who argue international law exists today but didn't during the Indian and American wars, I would just respond by saying, tell that to Israel - one of the few states that refuses to sign into the ICC and ignores UN resolutions like a daily ritual. Your analogy is not valid and there endless differences besides the few I just mentioned.

"Only in Zion, Jews assassinate Palestinians like it`s a kosher turkey shoot - and Jews are angered when Palestinians retaliate."(Joe) Retaliate? Yo've gotta be joking huh Joe? Aren't you the guys who constantly claim that your only choice is to kill Jews to end the occupation? And aren't therefore your hated Zionists the ones who retaliate? Especially since the occupation would not have happened had your "brave" people would not have been the ones to attack and try to destroy Israel? "I just find it amazing how something as SIMPLE as understanding the basic laws of physics - of action and reaction - seem to escape the brainwashed mind of Zionists."(Joe) Give me a break dude! There seems to be nothing simple for you. Before you confuse who is reacting to whom, you might want to admit that the earth is not flat first!

Yes Kevin, Free speech is denied not only in Arab countries but in your country also where most Americans are quite unaware of what goes on over here unless they are Jews or Arabs. It is more likely that the press will print with more sympathy to the Jew than the Arab and that is a fact. Perhaps we should take note of what people think of us here in Israel when people tell us that we are doing something horribly wrong instead of burying our heads in the sand and waiting for someone like you to reassure us with a line like "others do it - right or wrong - we can too) That is not the answer.

I'll keep posting my response to those who show their true hateful racism and ignorance by questioning how an Arab can have an opinion which doesn't fit into their expectations.Arabs, like all other people, have differences in opinions. To expect them to be less self-critical or to have only certain opinions is a form of ignorance and racism.Having said that, I will point out that one does not have to be pro-Arab and anti-Israel.In fact there are more and more Arabs who are not buying this "it's all Israel's fault" routine of Arab governments. I feel sad for you because you will never understand the people of the Middle East. You'll never know why Arabs helped and hid Jews during anti-Jewish riots organized by the Mufti of Jerusalem (Hitler's ally).You'll never understand why most Israeli Arabs are proud to be loyal Israelis, serve in the IDF etc. Because you are bent on an ideology, you'll never comprehend how Druze, Christians,Arabs, Kurds, Jews got along together.

while on vacation leave, one Arab bandit killed, left abandoned. (the others would face Jewish justice or Allah in no time)

Thanks for the post...Clickfool and his cronies are a pathetic lot mired in hate and distortions. They cannot seem to get past their bigotry and it is impossible for them to deal with the truth. In a way they are like wanna be Nazi's....can you imagine trying to emulate those brown shirted creatures? At any rate we know the truth and we know that Israel will stand strong forever. The Europeans and the British are weak and the muslims are overtaking them slowly but surely. Soon they will come crying to the U.S. and Israel for help...I am not so sure I will be willing to lend a hand. I have a long lasting memory filled with the horrors of the Holocaust and a little pay back would not make me sad. Take care,Connie.

Thanks so much for reprinting my post...never hurts to see the truth over and over again. As for the period at the end of my post..my computer does not allow me to print more than the allotted amount of words..hence no period...but here goes some just for you..............

In your post on the article where Bin Laden warned Israel, you asked him to get rid on only the evil Zionists and leave the good Jews alone. How do you propose to do this? Will you do it Treblinka style, good Jews to the right and bad ones to the left? Do you have your list of Zionists you want offed? You showed your true colors on this one. Right out of hitler's play book.

Tosefta seems to think that International law should hold serious sway with those involved in this conflict. Therefore, like any good lawyer, he organizes as much legal material as he can to buttress his position hoping that this will have the desired affect. Unfortunately, we all know that no matter how good International Law seems on paper it is quite frivolously enforced and doesn’t seem to carry much moral weight among those who are actually living the conflict. I’m not opposed to intellectual masturbation. I have spent a great deal of time in the Ivy League doing just that. But I think it most unrealistic to think that International Law has much to offer in terms of long term solutions to this conflict. That being said, I do agree with Tosefta that Hamas has a lot to say about any long term solutions and that attempts to marginalize Hamas are probably going to fail, if not make things worse. I’m not for appeasement, but Hamas is the elephant in the room.

Just today Bin Laden said their goal is no Jews from the Sea to the Jordan River! PLO charter, website, etc. same (in fact formed in 1964 while Jordan still occupied the territory). Hamas charter, flag, website all call for removal of Jewish Israel. Iranian President obviously the same. So why are we discussing anything here? End of discussing, right?

Native Americans did not launch 5 unprovoked wars of extermination against the incoming population. Native Americans did not try to form their country after America was already formed. Native Americans did not have a charter calling for the complete destruction of America. I view Native Americans victims more like the Israelis than the Arabs in "Palestine".

I would not be surprised if the killers of Rubin and Amichai went to the Palestinian Authority soon after the cold-blooded murders and asked the Palestinian Authority in Hebron to incarcerate them for protection against capture by the IDF. The killers are probably aware that the Palestinan Authority will leave the key to the jail cell in the door, to facilitate their escape when things cool down.

We stole their land, squatting on it? We killed them off. Are we fair game? Pop, Texas, click, I'm waiting for an answer, but not holding my breath.

I presume you consider yourself #1 honcho here, I hate to disabuse that notion,But other than verbiage you are not that knowledgeable and if it were not for plegiarizing you would prove to be a ignoramus of the first order. Your knowledge of the Middle East only comes from your Syrian handlers and roots. You have been wrong on Belfout, the mandate, 181, 242 and anything that you ever discused. You have insulted the real honchos: Fox, Cipora, Kathy myself and everyone that has debunked your outright LIES and fairy tales. I am sure that you need to take a pill just to feel big. Is it blue by any chance?

..to lose. Surely you mean: Those who aspire to gain everything? Last time I heard, the 19 young Arab men who perpetrated the 9/11 atrocity were well to do middle class and some were wealthy. And Osama Bin Laden too is not exactly a poor church mouse is he? And what are the likes of Hamas and Islamic Jihad fighting for? If they were only fighting only an independent country for their people, one could justifiably call them freedom fighters and liberators.But that's not what they are fighting for.They are fighting for the conquest of ALL the land including that of Israel. That's what they have been fighting for since the 1920s, the disposession of everything that the Jews own and to give it all to themselves. So, because of that, they are NOT freedom fighters but would be conquerors.And they always have had, and still do,have a choice: And that choice is to live and let live. To build their own country side by side with Israel, a country for Jews with a 20% Arab minority.

Bullshit. Although administrative detention theoretically applies to Jews, in fact in the tens of thousands of cases in which it has been used, almost none of the people detained were Jews. It IS lawful under Israeli law, but then the Nuernberg Laws were also lawful at that time in that country. As to the case being brought before a judge, there is no legal process involved; one government employee gets to rule with no evidence presented, no defendant representation, and no appeal. I still stand by the claims you cite.

Howdy Tosefta; So what? The U.S. may have been in favor of an international corpus separatum for Jerusalem up until 1962 at least, but an unilateral recommendation is not a law, agreement, or treaty and carries no legal weight whatsoever. Regardless of that opinion and simultaneously, the U.S. has recognized Israeli sovereignty up to the 1949 armistice line including that portion of the international zone of Jerusalem proposed by UNGAR 181. It took awhile, but the U.S. and the rest of the international community finally gave up on the corpus-separatum idea when they realized that neither Israel or the Arabs have any intention of ever voluntarily ceding sovereignty over any portion of Jerusalem to the UN. Nobody seriously entertains that dodo-bird idea today except for the one-state-solution idealists.

The sadness of it all, Dutch, is that the Palestinians are their own worst enemies. It was violence promulgated BY Palestinians that initiated BOTH Intefadehs. In point of fact, prior to the Intefadehs, the Palestinians had the highest stadnard of living in their history, with low unemployment and rapidly growing economy. Now, because of the Intefadeh and continued violence by SOME Palestinians their economy has dropped back to around the 1967 levels. The tragedy of it all is it's the apparent Palestinian self hatred that has brought this all on them. The fact that you ignore that FACT shows your utter contempt for the Palestinian Arabs and their plight. It cannot get better until they admit and understand the fallacy of their ways over the last 20 years.

I agree. Regards.

wrote----"one must not expect the irish to grasp complicated concepts" lets see, Ireland is at peace.We must have grasped something you and you "brilliant" co rabid zionists cannot. Ireland is #5 on the HDI (Human developement index)Israel is 23rd. Ireland is the 5th richest(per capita) country in the world.Israel did not show up in the first 20 so I gave up looking. Ireland is consistently the most popular country to visit.Israel is not only the least liked but least trusted. Now who is smarter than who. Say toblerone/pappabull, why dont you post something relevant or intelligent and prove to us you are not just a brainless inbecile, who keeps walking into obstacles and further compounding the brain damage.

But Fed Up...Israel has worked hard to turn that worn out piece of land into a garden. Still a ways to go, but the land is a far sight improved over what it was 100 years ago. In addition, moving all those research institutes, schools, factories, etc would cost 100's of billions, Besides, The land is theirs, historically.

You get what you give little lady. As I said- animus and insult. Behind a facade of what you can or cannot "abide" and what you call being direct is rudeness and coarseness with nothing to redemptive about it. Regarding Danite- I'll let him speak for himself. I am not interested in cliques, just decent conversation or even just reading a decent post which you seem to be incapable of. It's not only those to me- your posts that I have read have anything of substance in them. It seems that it is you who should be reading more and typing less. If you don't like this- well you get what you give. I did not start this. Not at all. You just did not like my point of view and came clawing back.

Cipora hello Nice to see you here,if for only a short time. Your assurances are appreciated,and frankly it does not bother me much,except when Tosefta became rather objectionable in the unrequited response and the inclusion of his last paragraph.That did annoy me.Because I neither have asked or,responded to him at all. And I stand by what I said to that Dorothy who still keeps with her accusations about shouting aninmous and "caps".None of her business and I have good reason when I do it occasionally. Shavua Tov You and the best regards as usual. p/s Haaretz plp this is for Ms.Cipora J.K # 536 Toda..

Do you mean the peace Israel got on the border of Gaza with their full withdrawal from there? Ahh yes.. sooo peaceful there with daily rocket barrages randomly shot ..willy nilly. Fact IS, generally, the West Bank and gaza WERE left mostly in peace, except for a few strategic settlements on high points, away from valleys and forested areas. Heck, quite a lot of the land used for the initial settlements was owned BY Jews prior to 49 and they were taking back what was legally theirs. You REALLY need to ge a clue as to what is happening here. Obviously you are not puttng the pieces together or are ust deluded, because NO peace will come from a unilateral withdrawal from the West Bank. PLO charter states that, Hamas charter states that, PNA charter states that. So get a clue dude.

Those attacking you have never once posted sorrow, concern or horror over murdered Israeli civilians. I'll take you, your humanity, your warmth, your charisma, your passion over those who lust after terror groups and others who admire cruelty, anyday!

how many know that one of the italian popes kidnapped a jewish child and refused to hand him over to his parents.various sources have more then hinted that he abused the jewish child.(papal bul) Indeed I know and heard it first hand papal bull.The one you mentioned was one of many. There were equally numerous ones,and I for one have known about them.Still,it is an honest observation by you by producing it here for some who may not be cognizant with the pattern perpetrated by the popes at the time.Or perhaps have not heard about it.You keep it up,and don't let anyone stop your endeavour.

wrote-----"LABRAHAS Infantile insults do not change UNSCR 242 Try reading 242 and some of the emminent legal opinions next time you are able to comprehend anything." PeterSM is that an argument. Incidentally I have read some of the eminent legal opinions and they are to be found in the ICJ,S ruling on the barrier.Try reading it yourself.Just google---ICJ 2004/02, instead of making generic and hollow accusations.

people.

OK, Kathy, I was not diplomatic. I should apologize to you. You are welcome to attack me if you so desire, but then come up with your own arguments and complaints, not somebody else's. Not appearing to think makes a bad impression on me.

You can spin it any way you like, but that's what happened.

The legal status of the former Mandate of Palestine prior to 1967 was provisionally determined by the armistice agreements between Israel and Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon in 1949.. the armistice agreements essentially killed and buried UNGAR 181 including the partition plan and your precious corpus separatum." - JN And here is the US position which you saw before (but failed to understand). It is dated May 31, 1962: "The United Nations General Assembly on December 9, 1949, reaffirmed its recommendation that a corpus separatum be established, and requested the Trusteeship Council to proceed with formulating a Statute for a Corpus Separatum for Jerusalem. . The United States undertook, however, to give due recognition to the formal acts of the General Assembly and the Trusteeship Council relating to Jerusalem and has since maintained its position." When was the last armistice agreement signed? July 20, 1949. Somehow, it still did not nullify the previous ideas. A status quo ante returns the situation to whatever it was pre-war. I don?t say what it was, so as not to get into unnecessary arguments. But certainly, 242 did not intend to override anything and did not. Jeff, you are a legal incompetent, not only unable to understand legal issues, but not even to understand what you read. The only way to overcome your blockage is to check into our "Uncle Joe" Institute for mental health and Spa, in Georgia. It was transplanted almost in full from the former USSR. Some of the old techniques are used and are guaranteed to work. Note that waterboarding is suspended until its legal status is clarified. One week there will do you wonders; you will finally come to see who you are and understand your place in society.

When I receive a reasonable responnses I reply reasonably and with decorum.If I receive a load of hateful ripostes then you can bet your bottom dolar, I will reciprocate in kind.As simple as that. No embellishments,no deviation unless it is reciprocal and valuable without any preconceived ideas pertaining to the subject. I cannot abide hypocrisy and will act accordingly.I tend to be rather direct,if sometimes rather rude if subject is too controversial and do not approve of it.Which happens with some asrticles. So,therein lays your answer whether you like it or not. May I remind you that the Danite of old is not parricularly fond of you,nor of Tosefta(erswhile B.G)anymore either.This shows how things have changed since you three were bosom pals a long time ago.And no point in chiding him like an "aunt agatha"...hope this comes out.I decided to shut up my study.Will come back before it gets too late..

Fayyad is a hypocrite like all of the PA "leadership"

Gina, I have always believed in asking for forgiveness and expressing sorrow but I have never seen so much inhumanity towards the Palestinian by Israelis in all life . It's pure evil and I am not only losing my cool but my sense of perspective in the process. Now I just got this report from a friend (See URL) and already by this time the IDF have murdered 10 more Palestinians and you feel the Palestinian PM should express sorrow for the two Israeli soldiers --now that seems incomprehensible to me. ( http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9179.shtml ) Perhaps I should I should leave it at something I said earlier- it's a shame anyone has to lose their life fighting this injustice or maintaining it. Dutch

"What Israel wants now of course, hanging on to large portions of occupied territory, is a violation of that principle." by Ben Alofs How is that possible? Depending on the source, Israel has already given back 91-97% of the land. There are NO "large portions" of land to give back!! Only 3-9% of the land won in a defensive War is left to discuss. You could argue convincingly that Israel has met its obligation (under 242 & 338) by the land they have generously returned already. Doc Holliday

It's nice to get a decent answer- so thank you. You said "What mattters is the intent, not the motive." So I would say that the motive can mitigate and does matter. In other words what drives a person to do what they do matters. But I am not a lawyer and I can't argue legalistically.

I assumed that Cipora sent back my response because she had no good answer. However with the case of intent versus motive she gave a pretty good answer- see #501. I have yet to read anything worthwhile from you- it's all animus and insult. If you have any education, it's not showing. You don't know how to communicate effectively and that is why you must use caps and make excuses posting here so profusely to call attention to yourself. Problem is you don't deliver.

It is now 30 years later. We all know what the contours of a reason- able political solution are, but the mess is bigger than ever. Primary blame must lie with Israel, because of its illegal colonization and land greed." Ben Olofs, Hello Ben Olofs: Indeed, it seems you are right the primary blame lies with Israel and I wish to draw your attention to two editorials which note this. "As an Israeli who has pored over the documentary record of the settlement project, I know there is one more painful, familiar ele- ment to this story: the warnings were there from the start and were ignored, kept secret or explained away. Leaders deceived not only the country's citizens, but themselves..." http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/10/opinion/10gorenberg.html Note how this reckless expansion has been continued by officials: "We enthusiastically chose to become a colonial society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the occupied territories, engaging in theft and finding justifi- cation for all these activities. Passionately desiring to keep the occupied territories,we developed two judicial systems: one - progressive, liberal - in Israel; and the other cruel, injurious in the occupied territories. In effect, we established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture.That oppressive regime exists to this day." ( http://www.seruv.org.il/english/article.asp?msgid=77&type=article ) Thank you, Dutch

You're nothing but a fake Marwan, it is obvous. Please moron, what is the different between Off-duty (wthout uniform) and duty bound (ununifom) killer?. Both are traditional killer since human beings first inception on earth.

I doubt Lakshmi has any understanding of world politics other than the usual rundown of excuses as to why Israel makes his life in Indonesia as miserable as it is.

There is no indication WHATSOEVER that Palestinians accept a Jewish-majority state whether there is Israeli construction on the West Bank or not. The Palestinians just use the dreams of Jews and the West for a 2-state-solution (Jewish and Palestinian states) to try and get rid of a major irritant to them - Israeli construction. So long as it is the intention of Palestinians to get rid of Jews by bullets, trying to get rid of Palestinians by Jews building near them is a pretty mild response. The Jewish presence on the West Bank also serves defensive purposes and the fulfillment of Jews settling their biblical homeland.

"The untold numbers of homicide bombings of innocents....the rape and murder of Israeli citizens including young children who were mutilated..the mutilation of Israeli reservists to the point where the "butchers of palestine" went wild running through the streets carrying the organs of the victims....the need to destroy a people to the point of causing your own to live in squalor and destitute.. and the criminals of England who had the choice to either stay in jail or be policemen in mandated palestine and the butchery that they showed to the Jews and let us not forget the hell hole that was Cyprus where the British kept Jews locked in camps out of palestine at the request of the arabs...should I continue or do you get the point" It's a cute little thing called a "full-stop". Yes - there it is, that little dot at the end of that last sentence. It helps comprehension when you have a lot to stay, but it does require you to marshal your thoughts and be logical and stop babbling.

Try reading 242 and some of the emminent legal opinions next time you are able to comprehend anything.

OK, Kathy, I was not diplomatic. I should apologize to you. You are welcome to attack me if you so desire, but then come up with your own arguments and complaints, not somebody else's. Not appearing to think makes a bad impression on me.

By that I do not mean the IDF,but the Palis.you promised to go over and be a "human shield"also Maureen Ann.And both of you never took the plunge.Empty promises.I would have loved to have heard about you both over yonder,get raped,tortured,with all the blood and gore they are wont to carry out,eh Doris? My,oh my you are something else Doris...

How do you know? Maybe quote some historical precedents?

Yeah Marwan, the world has seen the flash of Israeli weapons used while oppressing the original inhabitants of the Middle East!

Connie hello I shall never forget seeing those pictures on the T.V.The barbarians with their bloody hands showing their people from the window. They resembled from some horror movie(never watch them not because I am squeamish)but nevertheless imagine it. To remind Clickfool about the horrors of the Brits and the treatment of the remnant of Jews from the camps in Germany,and sending them back to the hell they came from,rom,but the others to concentration type of camps in Cyprus is something too disgusting to contemplate. But Clickfool will riposte in his usual nonchalant way and retort by the mention of the Pals,and so-called brutality of the IDF and,and,and with stupidity.Conversely he will ignore your post.Not convenient at all.. Some people here are like that and glory in our misery and laugh in return..idiots and pathethic the lot of them..

Don't mind what others say. People get very nasty, for no reason, except their own personality. Shavua Tov and best regards, Cipora

Article (62) Individuals and groups may not bring or bear arms, nor may they illegally possess arms in violation of the provisions of the governing law. Should they not accept Abdel-Razak al-Yahya ultimatum they will be simply violating Palestinian law ! Therefore , we might say that, according to the Palestinian legal Institution , they should be classified as outlaws ! I suspect that Palestinian Interior Minister statement would not be enough to convince that you are wrong ! Who knows there is still hope ?

a jewish child and refused to hand him over to his parents.various sources have more then hinted that he abused the jewish child.

?2. Are the Palestinians soldiers or terrorists? They are both. According to the dictionary, the Palestinians aim at civilian targets and are thus terrorists. But I note that a new international treaty to outlaw terrorism is stuck in the planning stage because many want to exclude national liberation groups from the treaty. Given that the Palestinians hardly have a military alternative, morality seems to be unclear here. In any case, they are acting under mitigating circumstances.? Attaching ourselves strictly to Palestinian Constituion and now endorsed by Palestinian Interior Minister . Sorry to say you r WRONG ! Haaretz 29/12/07 The top Palestinian security official said on Saturday his government was dismantling militant groups, including those connected to President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah faction. As stated previously to U ! All these so self proclaimed Palestinian combatent (u called them firstly soldiers) groups are incurring in formal breach of Palestinian Constitution.

In # 514, "All of these agreements except for the one with Jordan..." should read "All of these agreements except for the one with Lebanon..." and "...UNGAR 181 which had legal standing anyway." should read "...UNGAR 181 which had no legal standing anyway."

and part of the brotherhood of man.

"4. Are the Palestinians ready for a cease fire? Indeed they are, and Hamas` word is reliable."(Tosefta) Indeed, their word is reliable and this is what they reportedly said only a week or so ago according to Haaretz, Wed., December 19, 2007: "At rally, Hamas vows never to recognize Israel More than 200,000 Palestinians rallied Saturday in Gaza City to mark the Hamas movement`s 20th anniversary, where deposed Hamas prime minister Ismail Haniyeh said that whoever declares he will never recognize Israel earns "the people`s love." The crowd chanted: "We will never recognize Israel." So, Tosefta, why don`t you accept what they themselves are saying? Now, don`t get me wrong, I`m not against a ceasfire but only if they too would fully adhere to it and that means stopping the transgressions of ALL their factions such as IJ. And all I would offer them is a ceasfire for their ceasfire, nothing more. Unless of course they too would offer more. Any comments?

concepts.that is why they were bricklayers in the uk.in between drinks of course and after placing a bet on "too thorty" at kemptown. as far as imbibing concepts like armistice lines and the fallability of popes one had better forget it.

Hi Lakshmi---"what Rob forgets is that in every case one lawyer is right and one is wrong.I think Rob is belong to the latter. Regards

My sympathies families of the three dead, and for the many who will be arrested on even the faintest suspicion. Suppose this sort of incident happened in WW II. Would we be surprised if armed off duty German occupiers were attacked by the occupied? I think not.

528Laksshmi You did not deal with the legal views I quoted word for word, from International Law experts, like Dean of Yale Law School. You just INTERPRET stuff. You'll do better if you quote experts verbatim rather then your biased and unprofessional legal understanding.

a nation that takes handouts and who's upward mobility in new york is limited to being a cop on the beat must not be expected to be ranked among the frontline nations of europe. that is wht they beg and receive handouts.

The legal status of the former Mandate of Palestine prior to 1967 was provisionally determined by the armistice agreements between Israel and Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon in 1949.. the armistice agreements essentially killed and buried UNGAR 181 including the partition plan and your precious corpus separatum." - JN And here is the US position which you saw before (but failed to understand). It is dated May 31, 1962: "The United Nations General Assembly on December 9, 1949, reaffirmed its recommendation that a corpus separatum be established, and requested the Trusteeship Council to proceed with formulating a Statute for a Corpus Separatum for Jerusalem. . The United States undertook, however, to give due recognition to the formal acts of the General Assembly and the Trusteeship Council relating to Jerusalem and has since maintained its position." When was the last armistice agreement signed? July 20, 1949. Somehow, it still did not nullify the previous ideas. A status quo ante returns the situation to whatever it was pre-war. I don?t say what it was, so as not to get into unnecessary arguments. But certainly, 242 did not intend to override anything and did not. Jeff, that you are a legal incompetent, not only unable to understand legal issues, but not even to understand what you read. The only way to overcome your blockage is to check into our "Uncle Joe" Institute for mental health and Spa, in Georgia. It was transplanted almost in full from the former USSR. Some of the old technique are used and areare guaranteed to work. Note that waterboarding is suspended until its legal status is clarified. One week there will do you wonders; you will finally come to see who you are and understand your place in society.

VictorPaul wrote----"#473 labarse of arabia cannot grasp that the territory of 242 was recaptured territory!!it was not conquered". Best argue with Lord Caradon.I simply posted his words.He used the term "Conquered". Or is it that you and the Jeff,s want to cherry pick his words.Ie--when he states that the 67 line was not meant to be a border, that is ok, but his statemnent about the annexation of lands on the "Arab " side of the 67 line you dismiss it. Victorpaul, you are quite hopelessly lost.Each time you open your mouth your feet go deeper into it.

Howdy Tosefta; In spite of your source which you don't bother to quote from, I find it hard to believe that anyone could possibly construe that the necessity "For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;" contained in UNSCR 242 to be restricted to a handful of Palestinian refugees generated by the Six-Day War only. It doesn't make sense because the war progressed too rapidly for there to have been very many refugees from it; by the time that UNSCR 242 was passed, those few refugees could not have risen to the level of being a "problem"; and the text on refugees is sandwiched between two other items which had been ongoing problems for two decades, namely: freedom of navigation and territorial sovereignty of every state in the area. Plus, UNSCR 242 itself does not qualify which refugees that it is talking about nor does it place a restriction on the time period in which they became refugees. You're going to have to do better than just tossing out a left-wing opinion.

you must be celebrating the holiday season with strong liquor . they are even worse rubbish than usual

You wrote----"Labrat how dare you question Jeff`s veracity?" Then you wrote---"This is a gentleman who actually understates ". Which is it Fox. YOU WROTE----"Palestine is a spanking new state, not shiney but as yet still un-born. It has never had borders, thus its first borders will have to be agreed upon." Fox I am not fully convinced you read my post. It simply states what Caradon Said about taking or annexing land before the borders are agreed on.Why is that so difficult for you to grasp. As to your insults and ad hominem, that just serves to demonstarte the weakness And shallowness of your arguments. On Israel,s willingness to make peace, see Dutch,s p[ost on that issue. #507 to Albert Seligman. I dont drink and neither do lots of Irish People, but I do know a few Irish Jews who imbibe.Does that mean you do also???. Do have a nice day..

with the simple problems of the middle east when our problems on the sub continent are so massive. start with the massive bomb attacks in pakistan our next door neighbour and then veer on to our occupation of kashmir. then we could discuss the mass killings of 2000 muslim civilians in gujrat state in 2002. israel is pretty tame in comparison with the atrocity we committed against the muslims in gujrat.

You say "the PA under Abbas is a joke". And I say, yes... its all laughs and giggles in the PA under Abbas and Fayyad. The country has more political and financial backing than ever before and this funny "joking" environment will **In sha' Allah** empower our institutions and develop our economy. However, and I say this with deep sorrow, it is the Hamas rule in the Gaza Strip that is a joke... a really BAD joke, which comes at the expense of the Palestinians living there. Tell me my Muslim brother/sister, who voted for Khaled Mashal? Nobody! So why does he have more right to Rule from Damascus than Fayyad (whom received many votes by the way) has to rule in Ramallah? I have faith in the Palestinian people, my people, to realize that building a state happens HERE and NOW. Not later in the afterlife. Salam.

Is this the way lawyers argue?Asking people what their qualifications are ? How about dealing with the substantive points I made about 181 ?

recaptured territory!! it was not conquered except by britain from the ottomans who then divided it up into mandates , no matter how tikk you are paddy grasp the legal comcept!! this land has been conquered countless times . all arabs back to saudi arabia will solve the problem !

In another time one would describe the antics of Fayyed as being similar to the Judentrat. Plus ca change

Why don't all Israelis just claim New York as their new promised land and move away from the hostile desert? New York and Jewishness practically go hand in hand anyway, and with Israelis out of the middle east the US will save billions of dollars in "aid" and then we can all sit back and watch the Arabs kill each other.

If you want to discuss butchery we can go on and on about the butchers of "palestine". The untold numbers of homicide bombings of innocents....the rape and murder of Israeli citizens including young children who were mutilated..the mutilation of Israeli reservists to the point where the "butchers of palestine" went wild running through the streets carrying the organs of the victims....the need to destroy a people to the point of causing your own to live in squalor and destitute.. and the criminals of England who had the choice to either stay in jail or be policemen in mandated palestine and the butchery that they showed to the Jews and let us not forget the hell hole that was Cyprus where the British kept Jews locked in camps out of palestine at the request of the arabs...should I continue or do you get the point?

Has to be the most hilarious claim to date.

BOTHERED DOROTHY.GET IT? And when I speak with normal and not biased persons I do not scream as you accuse. You may respond calmly,but proves you are a cold blooded stupid woman and that is why Cipora sent back you response.How about that? Would you accuse Cipora of screaming?You would nmot dare....Now go away and put your head under a shower...

my my, Kevin, all of 32'000 pure angels. did you get any of them?

Emphram, It's terrible to be blind and blame the other side for your scum. I imagine you consider targeted killing civilized too. Let's add the occupation & home demolitions & evil barrier to this too. It should shames the reason for the creation for your own state. But never mind I imagine that passes by you too. Dutch

466 No Collin Wright, a known terrorist, like criminal, is liable for Past Deeds. These hikers were attacked not for their record but by being a convenient target. Morality 101.

Tosefta nd here is your last paragragh. My suggestion: Try competing with Gabe1 for no.2 spot from the bottom. It is within your reach. And leave the hard issues to others.(Tosefta) Hey there who will be up to your oh so grand stature?You deny and denigrate,debunk,obfuscate,chastize,ad-hominems to all who do not agree with you on and on it goes.You are well known and everybody knows your habits.All,All And E.V.E.R.Y ONE...So, Not One Left To Argue Debate With As Far As You Are Concerned.I neither ask,need or to communicate with you and you know it.So,get off your high horse and don't denigrate me ever again.There's bloody dorothy here to help you out...

Click wrote; "Israelis and Palestinians roll around in the gutter, locked together." this is either a delightful moment of righteous indignation, or a sex related fetish on Clicky's part. You should be ashamed my dear boy. Standing by watching two parties "locked together" rolling around in the gutter. Rather than lending these folks a hand you choose to use your hand for other purposes. You should be ashamed or very happy.

Labrat how dare you question Jeff's veracity? This is a gentleman who actually understates deeply the machincations of the conflict here. Your baby-rattle accusations are meaningless and cowardly. You must have been sleeping off a huge hang over for over a decade you might not be aware that Israel has been willing to discuss the implementation of negotiated borders with the new "poeople" the Palestinians. That you cannot appreciate the argument put forth by Jeff revealing to you that in 1967 what has now been deemed Palestine, was occupied Jordanian territory, ruled by the king. Palestine is a spanking new state, not shiney but as yet still un-born. It has never had borders, thus its first borders will have to be agreed upon. If you do not understand this, I would recommend just giving up. This is certainly not your area of expertise nor understanding, if it is? then I insist the state that produced you be held responsible.

why don't the pali terrorists and brutal murderers not get out of israel which belongs solely to the Jews. ALL of these arabs should be back home where their dwellins are... in the sand dunes of saudi arabia.

Howdy Tosefta; The legal status of the former Mandate of Palestine prior to 1967 was provisionally determined by the armistice agreements between Israel and Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon in 1949 with a subsequent adjustment made by the Egyptian-Israeli Territorial Exchange Agreement of 1950. All of these agreements except for the one with Jordan contain clauses which make it clear that the armistice lines are not to be considered to be borders. However, the armistice agreements essentially killed and buried UNGAR 181 including the partition plan and your precious corpus separatum. By the time that UNSCR 242 came along, the status quo ante was that tentatively determined by the armistice agreements and not by UNGAR 181 which had legal standing anyway. It is not necessary for a later law to "discuss the legal issue" of a former one; it is only necessary that it come later in time and carry equal or higher legal weight in order to supercede the former.

Clickfool, I wouldn't put the Palestinians in the same gutter as the Israelis. No way. Refusing to allow ambulances through and restricting food and electricity and passage to the sick who are in need of life sparing medicie and treatment. You can't find a western type society any lower than that on the food chain. Dutch

Life on Mars? Tosefta spends quite a bit of his time commenting on the de-evolution of whatever civilization exists on the red planet. Not that I would ever question his so-called "facts". I must admit that most scientists would not claim to understand Life on Mars, but this does not stop our anal astronaut Tossi from attempting to educate us as the the state of Martian civilization. What is most interesting is that Tossi's comments regarding Mars, are alot like his understanding of the human condition here on Earth. He actually knows nothing of our celestial neighbor, and is certainly deivinely ignorant of what is actually happening here in the Middle East. Tossi I would urge you to take an Un-Manned mission to Mars, it would take a few years, which would relieve us of your nonsense. When you eventually get back, you might atleast come to know Mars better than you comprehend Humanity and its ways.

For too long the palestinian occupation of israeli land have been tolerated. Maybe now with the realization by so many westerners what Islam really is, handling of this problem can begin?! Well lets hope so at least.

By the way it IS ALSO applied to Jews,some who have planned to kill Arabs and deeemed to be a security threat,despite your libelous claims to the contrary. "Administrative detention is lawful both according to the law applied in the Occupied Territories and Israeli domestic law."--- The Order directs that the detainee be brought before a judge within eight days (the time period differs from time to time). The judge may approve, shorten, or cancel the order. In most cases, the judge approves the order as written. The hearing is not open to the public, and the judge makes his decision based on confidential material pursuant to which the order was issued"---- PS.I'am kleeping score so far you have claimed I know nothing about Ivy league universties,history,Israeli law.Have I missed anything?

Each word in title worth 500 milion dollars for the "PA" in international aid money: Killing Jews is the best business in town. No wonder many Israeli politicians are actively practicing it.

FYI Jerusalem is the City of David.Ask any intelligent truthful person and they will tell you this including the Pope. There are some things that you cannot change,no matter how hard you try, and this is one of them. FACT...Jerusalem=City of David. For thousands of years Jews have been praying eastward towards Jerusalem with the same yearning "Next Year in Jerusalem"....I don't think the muslims mention Jerusalem in the Koran and if so maybe only once or twice. They are jealous people who cannot stand to see Jews home again in the eternal city. They are so malicious in their religion that they built that golden eyesore on top of the Holy Temple just to destroy any evidence that Jews were on that site. But these devious things do not work as we see and Jerusalem stands proud and Jewish. What evil lurks behind the islamic religon is difficult to understand..just ask the Buddhists about their beautiful statues that stood for more than a thousand years and in one second they were gone.Why?

Albert Seligman, It's so easy to blame the victims and present them as being unreason- able. But no one I know is falling for that Israeli & apologist propaganda and if truth be know its the Israelis are the ones playing every trick in the book to dodge international and fair and just and get out of the territories they have illegally occupied snce 1967. Please note the com-ments by the former Israeli Attorney General and the peace proposals Israel has rejected or undermined in the last 40 yrs. "We enthusiastically chose to become a colonial society, ignoring inter- national treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the occupied territories, engaging in theft and finding justification for all these activities. Passionately desiring to keep the occupied territories, we developed two judicial systems: one - progressive, liberal - in Israel; and the other cruel, injurious in the occupied territories. In effect, we established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture.That oppressive regime exists to this day." ( http://www.seruv.org.il/english/article.asp?msgid=77&type=article ) Please note the following peace proposals rejected by Israel over 40yrs. The Rogers Plan (1969); The Scranton Mission on behalf of President Nixon(1970): Sadat`s land for peace mutual recognition proposal (19- 71); Carter`s call for a Geneva international conference (1977), Saudi King Fahd`s peace offer (1981); The Reagan Plan (1982); The Shultz`s Plan (1988); The Baker Plan (1989); A continuation of the Taba negotiations (2001); The Saudi Plan on behalf of the Arab League (`01) ; The unofficial Geneva Peace Initiative of Nov/Dec. 2003; and in 1993 Arafat signed the Oslo Accord which ended in Rabin`s assassination (1995) and the subsequent return to power of the Likud Party. 22 Arab states comprehensive peace initiative based on the Nov. 2001 Syrian Initiative (`02) Syrian`s peace initiative 2003: Syrian peace initiative to start the peace negotiations ov Nov 2004 (Sharon rejected them all) ; and of course the US backed Roadmapp to peace.(now anesthesized by Sharon`s pals.) Dutch

For the benefit of the Palestinian people.

Fool before you call anyone or anyplace a gutter, look in your own backyard. We all know how much you hate Israel and the Jews, and your love fest for the palestinians, thats fine, your entitled. My guess you have never been to Israel or what you call the occupied terortories, so you must only know a gutter looks like because of what you live in. By the way they are not Palastinain land, they belonged to Jordan and Eygpt who obvious don't want them back, because of what comes with it, the Pals

Whoa boy!! I think you frothing at the mouth. Nobody was murdered. Hezbo started a War with Israel and miscalculated their-Israels- response. But if memory serves, I think Hezbo WON the WAR, right? At least thats what they keep saying! They humiliated Israel, right? So what's your problem? By the way, the U.N. was found to be giving real time troop movements of the IDF to Hezbo. I guess they really were not that neutral after all. The U.N. workers ( spies ) were allowing there post to be used as a rocket launching area for Hezbo too! Oh well relax Chet, they won, didn't they? Your friend, Doc Holliday

If these murderers are caught, and given a lengthy incarceration, and thus the younger generations of Palestinians are taught that it is immoral and now criminal to willfully murder Israelis, then the Palestinians of the West Bank will earn the respect they need to reach statehood. As I've stated all along, once more Americans, especially, see the Palestinians making the effort to vigorously, ruthlessly fight Palestinian terrorists, imprison or kill their terrorists, as do Western societies, and even Islamic countries such as Jordan, international and US support, including the fundings, will only increase and increase for the Palestinian people.

Intent goes to the perpetrators mens rea, that is, whether he meant to kill. For example, if a person uses a vehicle to murder someone, intent to murder can be shown from the circumstances of the case. In the case of alleged murder, intent must always be proven as an element of the crime. For example, if poison is used, the type of poison, and the quantity of the poison, will be used to prove intent. It is not necessary to show motive to prove murder, although such showing can help the prosecution. If the motive was money, it can help prove intent. For a defendent, motive can serve as mitigation. None of these explanations are of much use in the case of international conflicts, or other conflicts, which might be governed by a combination of the laws of war and of domestic law. For example, if a uniformed soldier is shot at by any person, he has the right to shoot to kill. He would be under no obligation to try to make an arrest. It would be irrelevant what the shooter's motivation was.

"i heard you used to be arab is that true?and what do you call yourself now"?',,,,,,,,,,,he calls himself a free man now,lol,maybe you should try it.oh i forgot they kill muslim for comnverting dont they,again,LOL!

locked in death reminds me of sasoon and his words on british and german soldiers in the first world war. but you clickfool have no connection to the events in israel so your words are cold and disconnected. your hatred for the state is well known to all of us.

with the usual short witless and off the point utterings. Yesterday I predicted his(toblerone) return to insulting Ireland and he managed to wait a full 24 hours but trys to hide under a different name.

Once more. Judea and Samaria are not occupied territories. Israel does not butcher pals but kills pal terrorists. I have no sympathy for terrorists but sympathize with their victims.

It is nice of Fayyad to talk about harsh punishment for people who are deliberately undermining their own government's official policy. In the US that would be treasonous and the perps would get the federal book thrown at them. Abbas and Fayyad can't even arrest the culprits without the IDF. How can they go after them when their own security forces are replete with these traitors? Who will arrest them? They haven't got enough control of their own organization to mount an offensive. They are too weak and too ineffectual. Until Palestinians can progress to the point where they no longer accept the culture of tribal blood feuds they will remain a backward society. I saw a PBS special on the same thing in Kurdish Turkey. Blood feuds even between relatives and neighbors are held above the law. People go to prison for life but somehow they feel that stupidity is more honorable than the law. That should have gone out with the Capulets and the Montagues. Grow up or else!

"and to sorrow i bid good morrow and thought to leave her far behind but cheerily cheerily she loves me dearly. she is so pleasant and so kind."

"If you really construe that from my comments here, then you`re either barking mad or plain stupid." Is that the best defense you can muster.Calling people names and resorting to ad hominem. But I understand how difficult it must be to try to defend the indefensible day after day after day.

Since the murders took place in an area under the control of the Palestinian Authority, they also constitute a violation of the agreements between the PA and Israel. Those that were strenuously arguing that the murder of residents in civilian cloths anywhere in the West Bank can be justified, should understand that the applicable law here is domestic law, or military law, depending on the circumstance. Furthermore, under no circumstances can people in an "occupied" territory murder anyone who is dressed as a civilian, later claiming that the person might have been a soldier. Such murder would be a violation of Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions.

Israel routinely butchers Palestinians. Palestinians have butchered two Israeli soldiers in the Occupied Territories. The whole area is a hellhole where decency and ethics and morality have long flown out of the window. The Israelis and their supporters can't expect any sympathy when they express no sympathy for the Palestinians they slaughter. Israelis and Palestinians roll around in the gutter, locked together.

and to sorrow i bid good morrow and thought to leave her far behind but cheerily cheerily she loves me dearly. she is so pleasant and so kind. may the L-RD grant strength to the families and help them bear the loss of these very young men. may the jewish state of israel overcome.

ASKING STEVE...I'LL BET.... We all know you get all the information from various websites plus "wikipedia"what's up? And a few books...

Jeff wrote----"The actual border was left up to the belligerent parties to be worked out later via negotiations and a peace treaty which hasn`t happened yet." That is quite correct, but where does it grant the right to either side to annex or grab or steal,(choose your own verb)territory.On the contrary, it specifically states it,s opposition to such actions. Read below.Try to be objective in your thinking Jeff, for once.Try to don Lord Caradon,s thinking cap.See if it put,s you on the radar screen of truth versus "fantasia land". What Caradon Said----"Nonetheless, it is necessary to say again that the overwhelming principle was the ?inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war? and that meant that there could be no justification for the annexation of territory on the Arab side of the 1967 line merely because it had been conquered in the 1967 war."

"What mattters is the intent, not the motive." So what would you say was the difference between the two? Should we alll hold off from commenting and drawing conclusions" Regarding KATHY- if she is so educated- why isn't it showing? Why does she have to appear to be screaming? Why is she on the attack when she has not been attacked? Why does such an educated person post nonsense?

payback is coming and it will be tenfold,lol.

A sensible arab poster. There is no need for any violence. Either they live together in peace or separate in peace. Then everyone could have a great future without throwing all the money into military means. But all it takes is a few schmucks to evaporate this concept

As you did not answer my question.

"why were they in control and rule of E Jerusalem?" - Lynn Jordan was occupying East Jerusalem. In the same way, Israel was occupying West Jerusalem since the city was supposed to be an international zone according to the UN. The world recognized the two countries' rule on a de facto basis only. Now most countries recognize Israeli rule over West Jerusalem on a de-facto basis. Its rule over East Jerusalem is recognized as an Occupation, and requires the application of the Geneva Convention there.

the reasons why the palestinians within israel do not want to join their arab brethren.israel has made clear that the pa can have taiba and the other villages in the little triangle but the local pals adamantly refuse.the host of the programme openly accused the palestinians in israel of voting for their pockets.pensions are freely available in israel but not in abbasland.

Why should the Palestinian PM express sorrow and agree to deal harshly with the perpetrators when the IDF kills innocent Palestin- ians and makes no such expression of sorrow or promise to even investigates civilian death? I know I wouldn't bother my head. Not with their shameful and barbaric killers still on the loose. ( http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=5074 ) Respect works both ways and their barbaric killing is low on the food chain of civilization. A professional Army upholds the law it doesn't go out and targeted kill anyone. That's a blatant vio- lation of human rights laws and international law. The IDF is just another terrorist structure that should be dismantled too. It was its own terror against Palestinians that caused their two soldiers deaths. Events need to be traced back and the harsh reality faced. I shouldn't have to tell this either. They should figure it out. Dutch

How many terrorist scum have been arrested since 2000 or even since Annapolis. Another example of lots of jawing without any action on the ground. It is not tooearly to Judge either Abb(ass) or Fayyad as they have been in office long enough to shaow some signs of life on the terror scum front. Maybe we have a perception prblem here and maybe Abb(ass) and Fayyad do not see theses terror scum as terrprists.

3 Hikers hunted down by Jeep full of armed terrorists. That is the scenario.

i would have thought that the fact the europeans accept tiny kosovo's independence would have put paid to any more shlock on a one state solution in the middle east.that kosovo will soon become an independent nation points us to the repartioning of palestine and letting the two peoples live apart.that means umm al fahm et al will be transferred hook line and estate to the kingdom of abbas and the pa.

.. perhaps enemies will start talking to each other. Sounds like an Isiahnic world. Thanks for your support. We are more or less on the same page.

If a later resolution does not discuss the legal issue of the earlier resolution, do you think the later supercedes the former? I QUOTED for you the opinion of the British Foreign Office as an example, so that what you would imagine to be an "implication" for 242 will be set in the right light, i.e., 242 was meant to return to the status quo ante (legally) without changing the legal standing of any piece of territory. Of course, this was not so easy for you to grasp. Whatever the standing of 181 prior to 1967 was, it would have remained the same after 242. If 181 were dead, it would remain dead. If it were binding, it would remain binding. As far as the refugees, I again GAVE YOU a source. You haven't seen it because you never tried to see it. Being intellectually lazy has some advantages in terms of saving time, but long term disadvantages. Sorry I always lose. When I win it means that you would have learned something. So far, no luck.

are those settlers in hebron, the soldiers that protect them, and the government that sanctions them. Get the hell out of Hebron NOW! And not just Hebron, get out of the west bank, Alquds, and end your inhumane siege of Gaza. Then it will be worthwhile to talk peace that has a chance of being maintained. You can't go on a killing spree on daily basis using your murderous army and not expect something in return. Do unto others.....

Arabs of Palestine ended up with nearly 85% of the original territory of Palestine. Called Trans Jordan now called Jordan but in reality this is their ARAB "Palestinian state! So being one and the same, They can give any gift they want. There was no other country, state or government they could have seeded the land to. So your statment falls short of real and honest. Levi.

"the matter was closed by the peace treaty of 1994 with jordan . whereby jordan ceded ALL TERRITORY TO ISRAEL !! the pals are never mentioned in 242 or 338" VPHM True Victor but it also specifically made clear it,s intentions on "taking land" because it had been conquered in 67. Now, given even your limited ability to comprehend that should be able to break through cranial security barrier,if as I believe, and I do, it is the same model as Jeff Northridge,s. Read what lord Caradon Said. Knowing as I did the unsatisfactory nature of the 1967 line, I wasn?t prepared to use wording in the Resolution that would have made that line permanent. Nonetheless, it is necessary to say again that the overwhelming principle was the ?inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war? and that meant that there could be no justification for the annexation of territory on the Arab side of the 1967 line merely because it had been conquered in the 1967 war.

the leaders of the provos terrorists to a man laughing and drinking on television after the havoc and murders they caused and took part in.

Any agreements that will leave this foren entity in the land of israel will not work.

While the land is under islamic occupation, no one is safe...

a bit of light in the tunnel of darkness. Kind words indeed

....but I won't hold my breath. Since the PA has the I.D. of the killers, I hope they are caught and punished as an example of the wrong way the build a nation. The hikers were stupid or arrogant for hiking, carefree, in enemy territory. This was a preventable incident.

what has the peel commission to do with the emergency in the subcontinent? bombs going off in both india and pakistan where hundreds are killed and maimed and you google "peel commission"?to what end? lakshmi 500000 indian soldiers occupy kashmir.indian soldiers rape kashmiri women and you google peel?quite risible.

So I take it you're outraged by the fact taht most of the Palestinian militants killed over the last year or so have been engaged in something else than fighting Israel at the moment they were killed? It's well known. If Abu Rabu happens to be 'off duty' at the time, the IDF won't kill him. After all, that would be 'terrorism' by the standards applied in this article.

If you really construe that from my comments here, then you're either barking mad or plain stupid.

see how bitter it tastes when one of your poeple is killed? stop killing palestinians, end your occupation, and let others be in peace. Only then such attacks will stop.

or a papal covern?

all his friends were joooish before abbas (ruling by decree) appointed him the PA under Abbas is a joke

'Earlier, in Nablus, Olmert acknowledged that the shooting attack near Hebron took place on territory for which the IDF is responsible. He said that the IDF would fulfill all of its security commitments, according to Ma'an, an independent Israeli news agency. On Friday, Israeli Foreign Minister Livni on Friday vowed a "harsh" response to the attack, in which one of the soldiers responsible for the shooting was killed in ensuing gunfire...' Fantasy. After all, Israel has a perfect right to kill any armed Palestinian she sees fit. 'Terrorism' is when this relationship is reversed.

"#424 - Hate to tell you Tosefta, he`s right" Can you elaborate--Just a tad. Maybe you can give us a web address or link or credible source--Gosh anything at all. You see we tend to be skeptical.

It seems that Tosefta has some good friend at Haaretz censorship office. I had 5 post blocked !!!

Dear Kathy, There are certain talmud yeshivas who just fall in love with Pilpulim and simply forget the basics Pireki avot and Misnha. Yeah, I know our friend ! Yeah, I know he will never - in any case - admit he is wrong ! Yeah, I know his lack of respect towards others is astonishing ! But despite all that we say VAITER !!!

Dear Kathy, There are certain talmud yeshivas who just fall in love with Pilpulim and simply forget the basics Pireki avot and Misnha. Yeah, I know our friend ! Yeah, I know he will never - in any case - admit he is wrong ! Yeah, I know his lack of respect towards others is astonishing ! But despite all that we say VAITER !!!

"P.S. The usual suspects have breached the security barrier again. I may need some help in restraining them."Tosefta I had noticed and was just trying to decide between a 20lb sledge hammer or a stun gun.Truth/Facts or reality as I have said before will not breach the Security Barrier. Regards.

Israel, which has continually treated the UN with contempt and worse (recall the five UN observers murdered in Lebanon), has the unmitigated gall to send a "letter of protest" to that same UN. After having murdered hundreds of Palestinians, including many civilians, women and children, this year, this savage State demonstrates its ultimate hypocrisy and deceitful nature by attempting yet again to portay itself as "victim"

to assure the peace process moves forward and to show both people the govs are very serious about law and order. The rule of law is the founding truth of any democracy, whatever shape it takes.

asked for Partition. 6.On Nov.29,1947 the General Assembly adopted Res.181,the Partition Resolution,thus ratifying the British proposal.Arabs rejected it,but it is not relevant.In Trust law,both beneficiaries must benefit(israel&Palestine)for the Trust to be extinguished. 6.The authority of the GA derives from the above process.In fact,the 242 leaves the borders vague,precisely because the Security Council does not have the authority to decide on borders.Hence,the 181 is the only legally authorised border between israel &Palestine. 7.If you go to the site Dan Gillerman's Speech at the UN,Nov.29,2007,there is a little video showing footage of the celebration of the jews on hearing that 181 had passed.Sadly,since then israel is in non compliance of 181,which is the very condition of its existence.Rejecting 181 is tantamount to rejecting its own existence.israel was admitted to the UN on condition of acceptance of 181(which israel did accept quite happily in 1947!).

"Google is an amazing invention if you want to actually research a subject." Steve Post #372 from Steve. Lahabras - lying to justify murder When was the last child killed. How old? What circumstance?" Google on or is Google only for the answers you want to find???.

Fayyad is right. Every death is one too many. Either we will learn to live together, equally and peacefully or we decide to separate from each other, equitably and peacefully. half measures will bring further death and pain.

relevant.Gil,the Peel Partition Plan was rejected by all parties:Britain,Arabs&jews.181 was passed by the United Nations,accepted by israel and rejected by the Arabs.Howdy Jeff:I have spoken to this question earlier.Both johnboy and myself have discussed the question of the controversial nature of the 242.Res.181 is still in the books and I'll try and explain again: 1.The GA inherited its powers from the League of Nations. 2.Palestine was a Mandate under Art.22 of the League of Nations Covenant.It was a Trust.The beneficiaries were the people living in Palestine.Britain,the Mandatory power,the Trustee,was responsible for its welfar. 3.The League of Nations dissolved in 1946.It duties re:Mandates was assumed by the new United Nations(1945). 4.Britain informed the UN of its intention to relinquish its Trusteeship,but could do so only if it left the people of Palestine in a viable self-governing position. 5.In consultation with the Trusteeship Council of the UN Britain asked . . .contd...

Just wants the other side to capitulate. Gratefully those that framed the Peace in NI were not straddled with your abundant optimism. Always look on the bright side??.

thanks for making my point

Howdy Ben; Well, at least you admit that the 1949 armistice line was not a permanent border (there is a clause to that effect in the Israeli-Jordanian Armistice Agreement). Now, it boils down to where the border actually is. Would you consider that East Jerusalem and the seamline area being retained by Israel would be excessively large or do you propose something smaller? I will refrain from pointing out that "the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war" applies to sovereign states like Egypt (the Sinai) and Syria (the Golan Heights) and not to stateless rebel provinces liberated from foreign occupation like Judea and Samaria. So where would you put the border? And be reasonable because the old Green Line is not acceptable to Israel and is not required by international law.

stick your big ole wide nose into the mix.so typical of you and yours.LMFAO

why were they in control and rule of E Jerusalem?

We all make spelling and grammar mistakes when typing out our thoughts here. Peace

Hello Labhras, Thanks for the reminder, but I use the word IRA as a buzz word that everybody would recognize. I meant the entire peace deal, with all the groups. P.S. The usual suspects have breached the security barrier again. I may need some help in restraining them.

No matter what happens next, war or peace, innocent people will be murdered. It happens all over the world and for no good reason. Yet, peace is better than war and keeping the account running will not make anyone's life better. Let's not forget that since the year of 2000 more people died in Israel in traffic accidents than in violance which resulted from the Middle East conflict.. May the two latest victims rest in peace.

Can you argue the case? I will google later to check on your claims.

started. Will that open the eyes of Ms Coni ? This ambitious Ms will leave an ungovernable Middle East behind. It is like breaking all the door cages in a Zoo. That how the Middle East looks like in a Two State. The main door of the Zoo will be opend as well and the entire Middle East will be one big Iraq. Abbas should go to Gaza and fight his own battle with Hnanieyh. Most likly he will go to Saudi Arabia rather than going to Gaza. Condi opend all the doors of the Zoo and put down the fences. These doors Israel will not be able to shut.These doors no one can live behind. Israel must stop the policy of Two State and limit the damage before it is too late. I put the blame on Olmert & Co. Those who declared Peace in the Middle of War. How is it possible that the PLO or the AP will one day protect Israeli lives..Mad.. Mad..Mad.

Tosefta, (Aha, even an old COE fart can learn and post a smattering of Hebrew! My "supplement" to your own - pun intended.) I agree with your views. I also think the Olmert government is hesitant to take more than pin-point actions in Gaza for fear of: 1. Domestic political fallout resulting from Israeli military casualties and a possible failed military operation, and 2. The international political fallout resulting from Palestinian civilian casualties. Given the US' recent Iraq experiences in urban warfare, one must assume any full-scale military action in the Gaza Strip's urban enclaves will be bloody all around. All the more reason to seek dialogue with Hamas, and encourage Hamas to rejoin the unity government with Fatah. Israel shouldn't be naive about Hamas' current intents toward Israel; but at the same time, Israel must realise talking with one's enemies - even without preconditions - doesn't kill or maim, either. Kind regards, MV

Google is an amazing invention if you want to actually research a subject. "In the West, you cannot give as a gift something which is not yours." When did you forget this isn't the West?

The PA seems to have vowed to takes swift action on this issue. It is important to the peace process that they follow through on this promise. The radicalization of the two societies have already taken place. Even if there is a peace agreement, there is likely to be more incidents. What is important is a clear message by the rulers of each nation that it will not be tolerated that their constituencies behave in this way. Action must follow that assures the peace partners that they are committed to peace and keeping their citizens from harming the citizens of the other nation through quick identification of perpetrators and swift prosecution.

Olmert wants to do as ben gurion in his later years is give back all the occupied and go from there. The thinking is that a PLo state will be more peaceful than the status quo and demographics will be managed. of course israelis trusted Ben-gurion because he led israel to successful wars. So Olmert wants to do like ben gurion. The probems are as follows: Olmert is a failed war leader as winograd will finally confirm so israelis have no confidence in him. Secondly, the advent of kassem missiles, something that did not exist back in 48 can hold israel hostage as they fly from the north, south and soon the west if olmert gets his way. So antimissile systems have to be arranged. Another idea is for west bank settlers to set up the israeli republic of judea(call it what you want) and they go on their own. Set up your won defense force and government.Olmert has got to be stopped as israel cannot take missiles coming in from 3 directions.

you are projecting again and why does a nice zionist like you live in bolivia?

Dear Alberto I did say it was a waste of time to argue with Tosefta.You will never be appreciated and he will scorn you,and say:Go away... Here is it is: Tosefta?s Accomplishments,or as the case may be: 1)Psychoanalyisis(0) 2) Talmud (7+) 3)Politics (2) 4) Eugenics (0) 5) Sciences (2) 6) Nuclear Physics(0) 7) Medicine (0) 8) Mental Disorder(10) 9) Sadism (10)x 10)Enjoys inflicting pain x 10)Masochism (10) 11) Pomposity 12)Narcissism 13) Arrogance 14)Altruistic(0). Enough I have just put a minimum applying to Tosefta.

Which does not exist is the pal entity.

Fortunately, the pals are not murdering Israelis on a daily basis as it was usual some time ago. It is much better for everybody that they kill the terrorists.

No you need to check the maps and accept the FACTS that islam is just occupation and liesss cause the only whole that is not occupied and moslem is the saudi land. As for name calling well I am never suprised when a muslim uses your type of adjectives cause I know when you discuss facts with muslim they could not accept FACTS then like uncivilized person resort to name calling . By the way stop lying ramadan just finish

Howdy Tosefta; UNSCR 242 supercedes UNGARs 181 and 194 because Security Council resolutions are legally binding whereas General Assembly resolutions are not. The end and you lose again. UNSCR 242 essentially recognized Israel up to the 1949 and 1950 armistice lines (including West Jerusalem) and made no attempt to return to the 1947 partition plan (including the corpus separatum) so, in effect and by implication, it did change the status of terrority from that envisioned in UNGAR 181 by moving about 3,000 sq. Km. of territory from the Arab or international columns to the Israeli column out of practical necessity. I have seen no legal opinion (except your dubious claim) which restricts the word "refugee" in UNSCR 242 to those refugees who were generated by the Six-Day War only. The text affirms the necessity: "For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;" without any qualifications.

"the matter was closed by the peace treaty of 1994 with jordan . whereby jordan ceded ALL TERRITORY TO ISRAEL !!" - Victor H Victor, in the West things work differently than in the old USSR. The West Bank did not belong to Jordan prior to 1967. The area was not recognized as Jordanian by all countries in the world (except Jordan +2). In 1988 EVEN JORDAN gave up on its sovereignty over the West Bank. So when it signed the peace agreement with Israel in 1994 Jordan did not cede to Israel anything. It just went back to its internationally recognized border (pre 1948). In the West, you cannot give as a gift something which is not yours. In the USSR you owned nothing anyhow, so you gave as gifts whatever the other side would accept.

When reading their posts, I can seel a common denominator among them. They are nervous, really really nervous.

Can anyone over there explain the purpose of the letter to the UN???? Israel has IGNORED UN Security Council Resolutions for 40 years. It is stupidity, or hypocrisy, or merely arrogance??

As a self-appointed editor of incorrect English usage on this site, you should realize that instead of saying "It's impossible to negotiate them", it would be more appropriate to say negotiate WITH them. As a purist, I'm sure this is important to you.

After a shootout Friday near Hebron that left two Israeli soldiers and two Palestinian fighters dead, Israeli forces launched a full-on assault on the city to try to find two additional fighters who were wounded, but escaped. The troops laid siege to the entire city, forcing residents to remain under house arrest while soldiers took over every part of the city of Hebron, searching for the two wounded fighters. Soldiers invaded al-Ahli hospital, in violation of international human rights conventions, and searched through patients' rooms looking for the two fighters. The soldiers harassed patients and doctors, destroying belongings and equipment in their search. All the while, helicopters hovered overhead. The two Palestinian fighters who were wounded remain at large. All four of the fighters involved in the firefight were identified as members of the armed wing of the Islamic Jihad.

check historic maps fool

4)Giving the opportunity for a declared enemy to get military stronger is NOT core issue when it comes to reach a cease fire (THIS ONE IS BRILLIANT , I told you to read Clausewitz) 5)Let for a moment forget item 4 ! Israel should give Hamas a break and pray that the other combatants will join Hamas decision ! In the same way Hamas had joined PLO in all issues ! 6)Finally and most important of all ! There are (sorry 4 not paying attention) signs everywhere demonstrating that Hamas is indeed changing it known positions. Hamas request for a cease-fire is one of them ! It comes as a sincere step toward peace and not as a natural emotion to all human beings – even to terrorists – FEAR OF DEATH !

didn't become unoccupied until the fall of the Berlin Wall.

1)Despite all past agreements signed with Palestinian Authority, according to your own words , Palestine VIOLENCE is still a justified way to solve Israeli Palestinian conflict. Well, that sounds really tricky to me when it comes to real diplomacy ! Why bother talking ? Deterrence seems the most effective way for Israel to achieve it political goals ! 2)Palestinian Authority does not represent ALL Palestinian People !!! Can’t believe we came back in time to the same old question ! Who does represent ALL Palestinian People ? Who does speak for them ? Another reason not to waste time in any peace deals ? Should Israel wait till they make up their mind in this crucial subject or should the Jewish State prepare dozens of agreement in order to settle with all terror groups ? 3)Palestinians ARE NOT subjective to the Palestinian Law (constitution) .

"So, technically, since Jordan was illegally created by the British out of the mandated Jewish homeland, Jordan should be dissolved and made into part of Israel. Keeping in mind that San Remo supercvedes ALL UN resolutions and decisions on the matter, INCLUDING the 47 partition plan, 242, 338, etc..." - Mark T Mark T, this sounds even worse than the usual Victor stuff. Let me try to disabuse you of such notions so that you can resume you presence in our dear reality. What do you think, can the San Remo conference of 4 victors of WW1 decide what the League of Nations would do? They have to bring it for the formal approval of the League, and then it becomes the League's action, not the San Remo action (even if the League's approval was a formality only). So first, give credit to the League. Next, realize that the precise borders of all future mandates were not decided by San Remo. They had to be worked out, and were worked out only by September 1923, AND ONLY THEN did the mandates take effect. By that time, the Churchill White Paper (1922) already was published, with the intention of cutting Transjordan off the Jewish state. This was already built into the Mandate of Palestine (Aug 1922), where Art 25 allows it subject to consent of the League, given in 1923. So all these actions were nicely legal. The League had the authority, and it used it. Following the League, the UN took over its authority. All the UN Resolutions, including Partition, 242, etc, were all nicely legal. Now, time to wake up and join the harsh reality.

OF THE JIHADISTS WE,AND THE REST OF THE WORLD HAS TO DEAL WITH.Brod. I found it relevant concidering what Israel, plus the U.S and the rest of the democratic world(too few)has to take into concideration. Kill Jihadists,and Fundemental Islam and we may have some semblance of peace.But,I think it will take eons before we can see its birth..

The real occupiers are the moslems in ME , not Jews or the Zionist . If you check the real history not the fictionous custom-made arab rewritten history books arabs and islam is the occupiers and colonialists that occupied and forcefully forced its people to speak and live in arabic ,starting mohamads land grabs in 700ad ( ex: occupied Egypt , syria turky ?) Actually modern day Israel is located on LIBERATED JEWISH lands as for so called felistine it never existed but if you really want a land there is one that has 70 percent terroristsssss like you and that country is called Jordan. What did felistiniasns do to the world , well they invented plain hijacking ,suicide bombing ,wasting UN money by lazily staying in camps,horror killing where family gets together and murder their own family female member I call it horror killing ( no wander you guys are real barbarians cause if you can kill you own like that then I guess it is easy to kill Jewish civilians)

you only condone violence you deem necessary. May I remind you firing Qassams and mortar attacks on civilian populations is against international law. Also, shooting people hiking is murder. Particularly since these three were ambushd, as it were. I think that calls for a response in both cases. One militarily, the other, by law enforcement.

the matter was closed by the peace treaty of 1994 with jordan . whereby jordan ceded ALL TERRITORY TO ISRAEL !! the pals are never mentioned in 242 or 338

Albert With the IRA and UDA whether secularism or nationalism it took not only decades,but the troubles began longer,which went back since King William of Orange.. With the present reconciliation,the IRA still did not get their 6 counties back after all the killings that went on and nothing gained. I like your wording of the "Prodi Dogs"as i have heard naming by the Catholics.I chuckled to rad it. Admitedly they now have a sort of peace,but still many dissenting voices and the occasional killings goes on.Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness,do have a seat in Northern Ireland Parliament,and it is early days... What does Labhras' point with Hamas and other Arab factions do with it??

israheli in plain clothes shoot palestinians for sport in west bank http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/939083.html

So he said he would do something. But his statement left a big loop hole. He failed to say "when"

Note the difference between Settlers killed in W.Bank and JEWS MURDERED IN JUDEA. That is what happened. Settlers are fellow Israelis, fellow Jews, and they were MURDERED by Arab terrorists in JUDEA.

It seems like many responders truly believe that KILLING is O.K., as long as it is the OTHER side that gets killed. And some even believe that the OTHER side should be completely WIPED OUT. Somehow I get the distinct feeling that many of Ha'aretz' readers are cowards who use their religion as a crutch and an excuse for their own selfish purposes. What a sad bunch of pseudo-religious reprobates.

"Harsh"= a medal and presidential protection from IDF forces ala Arafat. The world has come to expect nothing less.

Israel owns the West Bank. How can someone be a squatter when they own the land?

there are lots of arab/muslim supporters of Israel. The ones who can think for themselves are largely pro-Israel

Alberto What I said in my response was simply to ignore Tosefta,because no matter how much you try to point out his errors he will debunk and destroy anything resembling facts he will ignore and resort to ad-hominems and call you "stupid/ignorant as he told Cipora about myself.He is a self seeking megalomaniac who's knowledge he seems to think is too superior from the rest of us.Just leave it at that.

If you read and reread 242 in its entirety (see post # 311 res 242) you cannot escape the conclusion, that is is most certainly NOT a green light for keeping sizable portions of territory conquered in war. Caradon always stated clearly, that, yes there should be, negotiations between the parties about the borders and mutually agreed corrections of them should be no problem, but ALWAYS keeping the "inadmissibility principle" in mind. What Israel wants now of course, hanging on to large portions of occupied territory, is a violation of that principle.

Look how long it's taken to get Proddies and Catholics to sit down and talk to one another, even if both are Christians. Hamas is part of the Muslim brotherhood, an extremist form of Islam seeking the return of the Caliphate and a super Islamic state containing all other Islamic lands. They send people to blow themselves up, to kill civilians, telling their "martyrs" they'll enjoy virgins in the afterlife. It's simply impossible to negotiate them. The IRA and UDA had secular aims, even if their forms of nationalism were largely formed by religion. Just as one can't reason with your hero Mel Gibson about the Jews, the Holocaust and collective deicide, so one can't reason with Hamas about a lasting peace whose equation includes a Jewish state on what had been "Islamic land".

Mark So, technically, since Jordan was illegally created by the British out of the mandated Jewish homeland, Jordan should be dissolved and made into part of Israel.(Mark T) Mark I have on many occasions mentioned that Jordan that was created artificially by the British during the mandate.I also reported the fact much of what is now Jordan was going to be part of the nascent Israel,and we lost a big chunk of it. Naturally the Brits'reneged as they did with other parts of the ME.Kuwait,and even Saudi Arabia falls under this category.And last but not least what is now called Iraq was just Mesopotemia and not independent,all part of Churchill's manipulativeness at the time..

Your pointing out Lord Caradon's observations on lackings to the resolution which must be addressed is truly positive. Would you kindly comment on the viability of peace as an ongoing effort after the Madrid Conference, Oslo Agreements, Camp David, Road Map, Annapolis, etc., in spite of the PNA having been questioned for rampant corruption, incitement to hate Judaism from within the education system, tolerance of attacks on civilians by armed violent groups and public broadcasting of hate-inducing programs for children, in addition to building of Jewish settlements on territories held by Israel in accordance to SCR242? It is in my view irresponsible to put the blame mainly on Israel the way that you do, as it suggests bias and simplicity not attributable to a 12 hour shift in hospital.

Popeye, there're an awful lot of Arabs now living in the UK, many as refugees not working but receiving land and money care of taxpayers like myself. Some of these refugees are illegal and therefore stealing money they are receiving and squatting on property that is lent to them by my government. Are these people Swine too?

"UNSCR 242 supercedes UNGARs 181 and 194 both temporarally and in legal weight." - JN I wonder why the Hagadah of Passover forgot about the fifth son, the one who never learns anything? Could it be that the rarity of the phenomenon made it unimportant? Jeff, how did 242 supercede 181? Did 242 formally change the legal status of any territory? Did West Jerusalem, for example, become Israeli according to the UN? You can see what the Brits think about this in the quote below. And how did 242 supercede 194? Please READ Lord Caradon's book mention in my post to Rick (#337) and realize that the refugees mentioned in 242 are only those of the 1967 war, not the 1948 war that 242 did not deal with. How many times do I need to repeat this to you? P.S. I encourage you to argue with Lakshmi and keep her busy. But can you do it without generating more falsehoods? "HMG?s formal position is based on the 1950 statement: it recognises that Israel exercises de facto authority in West Jerusalem and, from 1950 to 1967, recognised that Jordan exercised de facto authority in East Jerusalem. Since the war of 1967, HMG has regarded Israel as being in military occupation of East Jerusalem, and in this connection subject to the rules of law applicable to such an occupation, in particular the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949. HMG also holds that the provisions of Security Council Resolution 242 on the withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the 1967 war applies to East Jerusalem." - British Document post 1967

Don`t bother JEFF talking to LAKSHMI is talking to a wall What does she know about a word like SUPERCEDES Or why RES 242 SUPERCEDES RES 181 Better to get her hopes up and give her a drooling alternative like Peel Commission partition line, let her talk a little about that too. The more Lack(of)Shame gets radical on this issues the more the Tossing Feta girl lines up with the Israeli side and gets pissed off so she slam dunks the Lack(of)Shame. Two at the price of one!

Hi Steve accross the water.You wrote----"Lahabras - lying to justify murder When was the last child killed. How old? What circumstance? Oh hang on. If course, who`d know more about terrorism than the IRA. Is that meant to be an argument???.I would expect a somewhat more substansive effort and in better English, on your part. Here is a "Partial" list of all the children "Murdered by the brave IDF heroes. I can furnish you with lots more, but somehow I get the impression you are not interested in the "Truth".Easier to call it "Lies". Names of Palestinian children killed Name: Kim City: Melbourne State: Australia Remember the Children documents the Palestinian and Israeli children killed. http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/about.html Between Jan-June 2007, 33 Palestinian children were killed (no Israeli children)

In the second to last paragraph the writer says "The Fatah-affiliated Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade took responsibility for that attack. A statement from the group said the shooting came in protest of the upcoming Annapolis peace summit and the "crimes of Israel against the Palestinians." Annapolis has come and gone...how could it be upcoming? "Communities in the West Bank" are illegal colonies. Get it right.

If You Want Democracy,Kill,Jihadis. The push to ?democratize? places like Pakistan, from Andrew McCarthy: Killed by the real Pakistan. apropriate war footing, we may not have the resources to do it. We don?t have the political will to fight the war on terror every place where jihadists Whether we get round to admitting it or not, in Pakistan, our quarrel is with the people. Their struggle, literally, is jihad. For them, freedom would mean institutionalizing the tyranny of Islamic fundamentalism. They are the same people who, only a few weeks ago, tried to kill Benazir Bhutto on what was to be her triumphant return to prominence ? the symbol, however dubious, of democracy?s promise. They are the same people who managed to kill her today. Today, no surfeit of Western media depicting angry lawyers railing about Musharraf ? as if he were the problem ? can camouflage that fact. In Pakistan, it is the regime that propounds Western values, such as last year?s reform of oppressive, Sharia-based Hudood laws, which made rape virtually impossible to prosecute ? a reform enacted despite furious fundamentalist rioting that was, shall we say, less well covered in the Western press. The regime, unreliable and at times infuriating, is our only friend. It is the only segment of Pakistani society capable of confronting militant Islam ? though its vigor for doing so is too often Laden wins popular opinion polls and where the would-be reformers are bombed and shot at until they die. They work feverishly to kill Americans. And, given the refusal of the richest, most spendthrift government in American history to grow our military to an apBut we should at least stop fooling ourselves. Jihadists are not going to be wished away, rule-of-lawed into submission, or democratized out of existence. If you really want democracy and the rule of law in places like Pakistan, you need to kill the jihadists first. Or they?ll kill you, just like, today, they killed Benazir Bhutto.

furthermore rick it follows the armistice of 1949 " where the armistice line WAS NOT TO CONSTITUTE ANY KIND OF BORDER. this follows in law that the armistice recognised that the territory was disputed !!!!!!!!

Israel needs to negotiate from a position of strength not kindness and being humble. Olmertg, Barak, Kadima and labor are useless.

What a crybaby olmert is. He is the one who started the unilateral withdrawal from gaza and now he has said he wants to do it from the west bank. No more settlements, no israeli claims, no nothing except for trading for a few blocks.So 2 israelis got killed in what olmert called arab land. Now they go to the UN to cry about israeli loss!! If olmert kept his big mouth shut and israel made some claims on disputed west bank land, gradually arabs would come to recognize some of the land as israeli and that israeli citizens have a right to it. In any event, why cry to the un. Olmert is the ultimate coward and is a neville chamberlain reincarnate.

Howdy Ben Alofs; Mr. Michael Stewart, Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, in reply to a question in Parliament, 17 November 1969: Question: "What is the British interpretation of the wording of the 1967 Resolution? Does the Right Honourable Gentleman understand it to mean that the Israelis should withdraw from all territories taken in the late war?" Mr. Stewart: "No, Sir. That is not the phrase used in the Resolution. The Resolution speaks of secure and recognized boundaries. These words must be read concurrently with the statement on withdrawal." The actual border was left up to the belligerent parties to be worked out later via negotiations and a peace treaty which hasn't happened yet.

If You Want Democracy,Kill the Jihadists First. Whether we get round to admitting it or not, in Pakistan, our quarrel is with the people. Their struggle, literally, is jihad. For them, freedom would mean institutionalizing the tyranny of Islamic fundamentalism. They are the same people who, only a few weeks ago, tried to kill Benazir Bhutto on what was to be her triumphant return to prominence ? the symbol, however dubious, of democracy?s promise. They are the same people who managed to kill her today. Today, no surfeit of Western media depicting angry lawyers railing about Musharraf ? as if he were the problem ? can camouflage that fact. In Pakistan, it is the regime that propounds Western values, such as last year?s reform of oppressive, Sharia-based Hudood laws, which made rape virtually impossible to prosecute ? a reform enacted despite furious fundamentalist rioting that was, shall we say, less well covered in the Western press. The regime, unreliable and at times infuriating, is our only friend. It is the only segment of Pakistani society capable of confronting militant Islam ? though its vigor for doing so is too often Laden wins popular opinion polls and where the would-be reformers are bombed and shot at until they die. We don?t have the political will to fight the war on terror every place where jihadists work feverishly to kill Americans. And, given the refusal of the richest, most spendthrift government in American history to grow our military to an apBut we should at least stop fooling ourselves. Jihadists are not going to be wished away, rule-of-lawed into submission, or democratized out of existence. If you really want democracy and the rule of law in places like Pakistan, you need to kill the jihadists first. Or they?ll kill you, just like, today, they killed Benazir Bhutto.

There's no mind there to change. :)

i heard you used to be an arab is that true? and what do you call yourself now?

J'lem and the opt ARE Palestine it is the zionist enttity which is in dispute think not? we ARE disputing it fool

Try saying "pretty please" Isn't that the advice you gave me the other day?